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Aikidonewbie
09-30-2010, 10:24 AM
Any know how to correctly pin a person on the ground with shiho-nage and apply a joint lock? I have seen putting a knee on the person's chest and then cranking the shoulder, but I haven't had any success doing it.

WilliB
09-30-2010, 10:33 AM
Any know how to correctly pin a person on the ground with shiho-nage and apply a joint lock? I have seen putting a knee on the person's chest and then cranking the shoulder, but I haven't had any success doing it.

Don´t know what you mean by "correctly"; there are several different ways to pin. I wouldn´t really trust any small joint pin though; if you really want to pin a strong, resisting person on the ground, you will have to go down and into some judo hold. These elegant "look, only one hand" pins are nice for demonstrations, though.

shakou
09-30-2010, 11:11 AM
Is that pin the same as the finish in ude-gurami (sp)? I have found that in the figure 4 lock you may need to take the crossed hand from the your own wrist so you can apply pressue to ukes wrist with both hands, so much more powerful. The knee position isn't so much in the chest as on the ribs and the head. I may be way off on what you are saying so take it with a pinch of salt.

The way we do shio-nage never ends in a pin, it is always a throw, it would be interesting to see what you mean. youtube link perhaps?

Nafis Zahir
09-30-2010, 11:54 PM
Any know how to correctly pin a person on the ground with shiho-nage and apply a joint lock? I have seen putting a knee on the person's chest and then cranking the shoulder, but I haven't had any success doing it.

There are several different ways to do it. You just need to keep searching for the right way. But remember, on the street, if the shihonage is done properly, you won't need to pin the person.

Carsten Möllering
10-01-2010, 04:22 AM
Is that pin the same as the finish in ude-gurami (sp)?
No, the shiho nage pin is a pin of its own. Uke lays on his back (just like when pinning from uke kime nage), the hands stay where they are during the throw.

There are indeed different possibilities, but mostly the position is not very goo when placing the knee on the chest. We do this only in hanmi handachi waza. When applying the shiho nage pin from tachi waza we only use the hands.

The way we do shio-nage never ends in a pin, it is always a throw, it would be interesting to see what you mean. youtube link perhaps?
Well shiho nage and kote gaeshi both can be applied as throw and as pin.

Carsten

Eva Antonia
10-01-2010, 06:03 AM
Hi,

when you have uke on the ground lying on his back, you apply a gokyo-like thing with the arm you still hold in shiho nage, but the arm is folded backwards/upwards. You block him with one knee between head and shoulder so that he cannot just turn around and then you apply pressure on the elbow.

But this works only if uke does a backward fall; if he does a forward fall you can catch up with kote gaeshi + appropriate ending.

I found a video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hVsq4cmtuU

(but we put the knees slightly differently in out dojo).

Best regards,

Eva

CitoMaramba
10-01-2010, 07:12 AM
Here is shihonage with a pin and atemi at the end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN9a26st3jo

WilliB
10-01-2010, 08:20 AM
Here is shihonage with a pin and atemi at the end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN9a26st3jo

Thats Yoshinkan though. I have not seen that particular version in Aikikai.

sorokod
10-01-2010, 08:55 AM
This is the Iwama way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oex5jstvPLc

shakou
10-01-2010, 09:14 AM
Well shiho nage and kote gaeshi both can be applied as throw and as pin.

Carsten

Never seen a pin from shiho nage before. I was gonna cry off with a bad chest but need to know what this is now. I can't look at the you tube links at work cos we're restricted and inter web is down at home..... Sounds like an interesting technique

CitoMaramba
10-01-2010, 12:19 PM
Thats Yoshinkan though. I have not seen that particular version in Aikikai.

That's correct. Here is the current Doshu performing Shihonage and not projecting Uke away but holding on to the hand.. would this qualify as a pin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HJjb65eu2w

Rob Watson
10-01-2010, 12:35 PM
This is the Iwama way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oex5jstvPLc

Iwama way?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_IGGaDQcGM&p=0743A25ADAFB8C06&playnext=1&index=44

sorokod
10-01-2010, 12:46 PM
Does not get more Iwama then this:-) Shiho nage @ about 2:10.

Rob Watson
10-01-2010, 01:31 PM
Does not get more Iwama then this:-)

My point was change and continuous research into the art is the Iwama way as I see it. That is why there are so many ways of doing things ... each has a context in which it works, or doesn't. Of course, I could be mistaken.

I was shown a pin from shihonage in which the inside forearm puts additional pressure on uke upper arm in a solid and painful way that very much limits the mobility of the upper body. The feet, lower torso and legs are still free to move. The mos teffective pin from that position that I have experienced anyway.

Shadowfax
10-01-2010, 02:59 PM
My point was change and continuous research into the art is the Iwama way as I see it. That is why there are so many ways of doing things ... each has a context in which it works, or doesn't. Of course, I could be mistaken.

I was shown a pin from shihonage in which the inside forearm puts additional pressure on uke upper arm in a solid and painful way that very much limits the mobility of the upper body. The feet, lower torso and legs are still free to move. The mos teffective pin from that position that I have experienced anyway.

sensei says that in order for this to be effective nage needs to have their knee hard up against ukes rib cage to prevent him from rolling out of it. Ive done this pin a bunch of times and on some pretty big guys and when I get it right they can't get out.

Rob Watson
10-01-2010, 03:34 PM
sensei says that in order for this to be effective nage needs to have their knee hard up against ukes rib cage to prevent him from rolling out of it. Ive done this pin a bunch of times and on some pretty big guys and when I get it right they can't get out.

I was thinking more of a quick kick to the head and maybe slipping into a triangle or armbar instead of trying to roll out. I'm sneaky like that.

sorokod
10-01-2010, 04:02 PM
Offcourse, after a shiho nage is executed with full intent, there is no need for a pin.

Rob Watson
10-01-2010, 04:28 PM
Offcourse, after a shiho nage is executed with full intent, there is no need for a pin.

Especially if uke breakfalls out (like one should).

odudog
10-01-2010, 06:20 PM
The Iwama, Aikikai, and Yoshinkan shihonage are the same.

The only difference in the Aikai vs. Yoshinkan clip depends on how well you have uke off balance. If you have uke off balance really well then you can go straight down like Doshu showed. If you don't have the balance of uke or uke is fighting, then you slide a little bit more behind uke while going down at the same time like Inoue Sensei showed.

You can also slide even more than Inoue Sensei showed, but uke has to be ready for that for it is a big fall. A friend of mine does another type of Aikido where you can not breakfall out of the shihonage. My personal version is a mixture of my friend's and Doshu and I can also throw like I was taught from DNBK.

Flintstone
10-01-2010, 06:28 PM
The Iwama, Aikikai, and Yoshinkan shihonage are the same.
Uh?

The only difference in the Aikai vs. Yoshinkan clip depends on how well you have uke off balance. If you have uke off balance really well then you can go straight down like Doshu showed. If you don't have the balance of uke or uke is fighting, then you slide a little bit more behind uke while going down at the same time like Inoue Sensei showed.
You surely don't mean there's no kuzushi in Yoshinkan or Iwama.

You can also slide even more than Inoue Sensei showed, but uke has to be ready for that for it is a big fall. A friend of mine does another type of Aikido where you can not breakfall out of the shihonage. My personal version is a mixture of my friend's and Doshu and I can also throw like I was taught from DNBK.
Sorry, but now I'm not sure what do you mean "you cannot breakfall out of shihonage". Could you point me to some resources where I can watch that shihonage. Would be interesting.

odudog
10-01-2010, 06:36 PM
Uh?

You surely don't mean there's no kuzushi in Yoshinkan or Iwama.

Sorry, but now I'm not sure what do you mean "you cannot breakfall out of shihonage". Could you point me to some resources where I can watch that shihonage. Would be interesting.

I didn't say there isn't kuzushi. I only stated that if you don't have it very well, then you slide like the Yoshinkan version. If you have your hips taken out very early in the technique, then you can't turn to do a breakfall. Or, if the technique is applied on you so low then you don't have the room or time to turn and breakfall. Unfortunately, these two versions that I have experienced, there are no videos to show. I have experienced {seminar or actual day to day instruction} of different styles of aikido or aikijujitsu. I can only tell on what I have experienced.

Flintstone
10-01-2010, 06:49 PM
I didn't say there isn't kuzushi. I only stated that if you don't have it very well, then you slide like the Yoshinkan version.
If I don't have a strong kuzushi, I'm going to get hit or reversed. I don't think this is the case. But that's just my opinion.

If you have your hips taken out very early in the technique, then you can't turn to do a breakfall. Or, if the technique is applied on you so low then you don't have the room or time to turn and breakfall. Unfortunately, these two versions that I have experienced, there are no videos to show. I have experienced {seminar or actual day to day instruction} of different styles of aikido or aikijujitsu. I can only tell on what I have experienced.
Sorry, I don't mean to say you're wrong, I just don't understand what you mean by breakfall. You know, different names for the same concept; different concepts for the same name ;) .

Carl Thompson
10-01-2010, 07:14 PM
Iwama way?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_IGGaDQcGM&p=0743A25ADAFB8C06&playnext=1&index=44

Notice Saito Shihan cuts to the outside in this version (1:40-ish).

Carl

Rob Watson
10-01-2010, 10:50 PM
Notice Saito Shihan cuts to the outside in this version (1:40-ish).

Carl

I believe that is the kihon version for shomenuchi shihonage omote. It is a lot of fun to play 'what if ...' off of that basic opening. I find the ki no nagare version pretty tricky as the timing has to be perfect with very little margin for error.

L. Camejo
10-02-2010, 03:06 AM
All these "versions" of shi ho nage aka tenkai kotegaeshi are very interesting.

But does anyone have any principles that would govern the correct execution of the waza?

Specific details always change during the application of technique. The principles however tend to stay the same. I've found that maintaining kuzushi at all times and locking of the attacker's spine so that he is planted to the ground throughout the technique are critical regardless of the version of the waza used.

Regarding the OP's question - knee on ribcage with shoulder or wrist crank works well ime. From my understanding however, our pins were designed to hold the attacker in position long enough to end the conflict using a strike or a weapon, not to hold them indefinitely as if in a Judo match.

Aikido pins offer the mobility to quickly finish or disengage if needed to deal with other potential multiple threats, they are not the same as ne waza pins where one sacrifices ones footing and standing mobility to maintain positional dominance imho. Keeping ones vertical balance is a key principle of Aikido imho.

Just some thoughts.

LC

grondahl
10-02-2010, 05:37 AM
Oh, I thought that the Iwama way was as a preservation society.

My point was change and continuous research into the art is the Iwama way as I see it. That is why there are so many ways of doing things ... each has a context in which it works, or doesn't. Of course, I could be mistaken

This is also my understanding, besides som mysterious I.S version that I have´nt encountered I dont think that it is possible to pin a person to the ground using just an arm (or even arm+knee on ribcage) unless there is a big difference in size or strength.

From my understanding however, our pins were designed to hold the attacker in position long enough to end the conflict using a strike or a weapon, not to hold them indefinitely as if in a Judo match.

Rob Watson
10-02-2010, 12:19 PM
Oh, I thought that the Iwama way was as a preservation society.

This is also my understanding, besides som mysterious I.S version that I have´nt encountered I dont think that it is possible to pin a person to the ground using just an arm (or even arm+knee on ribcage) unless there is a big difference in size or strength.

I knew I was putting my foot dangerously close to my mouth ... Let's call "Robs interpretation of Iwama". No doubt M. Saito tasked himself to faithfully preserve the art taught by the founder but just how many can rightly take on that mantle in all seriousness? Thread drift can lead to dark and gloomy places.

The only pin for shihonage I was even taught in the Iwama line fit into the description you mentioned and I seriously doubt most any pin would last very long except for some of those pretzel pins as seen in some branches or Daito ryu, human origami is what Ellis Amdur described it (I think). As far as martial relevance the pretzel takes way too long and who has time to sit there and hold someone down with a marginally effective pin whilst their comrades repeatedly poke with pointy objects?

All in all I think it is a great study to figure out just what exactly is it that one is supposed to learn from the pinning configurations.

shakou
10-07-2010, 06:14 AM
I now know what this is. did't get a look at the link but asked my sensei and it is as I thought. It is the same pin we use for our version of ude-garami, pretty nasty.

Michael Varin
10-08-2010, 03:27 AM
From my understanding however, our pins were designed to hold the attacker in position long enough to end the conflict using a strike or a weapon, not to hold them indefinitely as if in a Judo match.

Aikido pins offer the mobility to quickly finish or disengage if needed to deal with other potential multiple threats, they are not the same as ne waza pins where one sacrifices ones footing and standing mobility to maintain positional dominance imho. Keeping ones vertical balance is a key principle of Aikido imho.

Probably should have ended the thread.

Any determined opponent can escape from the shiho nage "pin."
I wouldn't worry about total immobilization. All you have to do is hold them there long enough to take their weapon, or cut their throat, or both.

The face down pins, while somewhat more stable, are much harder to get, but they are the only effective way to ensure your opponent doesn't use a weapon in his off hand to kill, or at least, surprise you.

Kesa gatame can't do that. Side control can't do that. Mount can't do that. Neither can most versions of rear mount.

Hmm?