View Full Version : Martial Arts Expert Explains Neck-Breaking Takedown

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AikiWeb System
09-29-2010, 03:57 PM
Posted 2010-09-29 14:55:10 by Jun Akiyama
News URL: http://www.wesh.com/r/25139875/detail.html

This news article entitled "Martial Arts Expert Explains Neck-Breaking Takedown" (http://www.wesh.com/r/25139875/detail.html) includes information from and video of Stephen Fasen (4th dan, Shindai Aikikai (http://www.shindai.com/home.htm)) on how a police officer's arm-bar takedown maneuver may have caused severe injuries to an 84-year old suspect.

From the article: "[The arm-bar] turns the body over, and makes them available," [Fasen] said. "The body then pivots, catching the elbow, pivoting on the ball of the foot. When the knee goes down, his balance is forward. Everything goes to the ground."

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Stephen Fasen
10-01-2010, 08:02 AM
Let us keep a few things in mind when viewing this. It was a request from a local reporter so they could understand and film the nature of the technique used in a police incident. The demo was done from specific detailed information directly from the police report. What is shown was edited well, given they had 45 minutes to get it to air and they cut it from ten minutes of video.The explanation of response to threat, body position, "self defense", and other issues were not included. Nor was the contention that the technique is fine, but the need to use it in question.
On another note...I was asked how long I have studied martial arts. My study has been continuous for over 30 years. When asked how many "black belts" I had, I begrudgingly admitted to 5 or 6. From that they determine I was an Aikido Godan, when in fact I am a Yondan. Not that this is a big deal one way or the other, but I have some Aiki Tomodachi who pay those types of distinctions more consideration than I do.:rolleyes:

Rob Watson
10-01-2010, 11:09 AM
84 year old drunk guy gets neck broken in takedown .... just how many things are wrong with this?

Stephen Fasen
10-01-2010, 10:08 PM
Far too many things broke down prior to the application of the technique. It didn't need to happen, but we also don't know what happened. With an obscured dominant side to the aggressive "drunk" the officer needed to react. Good self defense. The fact that the guy got that close... bad self defense, bad judgement? But then, we weren't there. Last time I checked an 84 year guy could guy kill you as fast as a 24 year old guy, depending on what is in the hidden hand. Awareness is an attribute honed in time. If we don't have enough time, if the time (ing) is wrong... reflex action may be all that is left. Far too few police officers train beyond a very minimum level of tactical ability. They don't get paid for it. Then there is that human factor.
Sounds like the lawsuit is on. We will see what happens.:confused:

Rob Watson
10-01-2010, 11:21 PM
Far too many things broke down prior to the application of the technique. It didn't need to happen, but we also don't know what happened.

Far be it from me to go about blaming the 'victim' but what is that fella doing out drinking like that? I bet there are a few more of those in his history. All, and I mean all, of the elderly I know that get drunk are drunks and have been for decades.

Given that drunks are basically a staple of police work I wonder just how much dedicated training goes into dealing with drunks. Given the sterotype of Florida being the retirement capital of the nation I wonder how much geriatric specific training is done by the FL police. Old folks can be such a royal pain in the kester. God help you all when I hit retirement in just a few years ... I intent to become even more annoying.

10-02-2010, 06:35 PM
I haven't seen this technique before. It looks like a modified Ikkyo where nage goes straight down on one knee ?

Michael Hackett
10-02-2010, 09:02 PM
The straight arm bar takedown is a common police defensive tactics technique. As a general statement, it is little more than a crude variation of most ikkyo techniques. Usually it is taught with the nage forcing the uke to the ground on his belly and nage remains standing until he elects to go to his knee (s) for handcuffing. Often the officer as nage will choose to place his knee on the suspect's neck and upper shoulder while cuffing. This is the first time I've heard of an arrestee suffering a broken neck, but have seen and know of cases where the arrestee suffered facial bruises or other injuries to the face from striking the ground or some other object on the way down. It is taught in most basic academies and in periodic refresher training, but as Bob Watson observed, most officers simply don't practice enough to be really good at it. Not knowing the circumstances of this particular case, I won't weigh in as to whether it was appropriate or not or done properly.

10-03-2010, 02:44 AM
This was an unfortunate event all around. It goes without saying that, regardless of one's age or current level of intoxication, it is unwise to put one's hands (repeatedly) on a police officer. It is equally likely that an 84-year-old person will generally not be as healthy and/or resilient as someone younger. I suspect that both parties could have gotten by with a lesser degree of contention. But I wasn't there, either, so mine is just another guy's opinion.