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ksy
09-28-2010, 03:27 AM
Hi guys! i'm an aikido newbie, 4 years. I saw this write up on kotegaeshi and how some traditional instructors get it 'wrong'. Specifically commmon mistake #1, which is how i was taught. What the author writes seems logical but would appreciate the comment of some more experienced practioners here. is it an improvement on the 'traditional' version of moving the front leg back?

here is the link
http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2010/08/kote-gaeshi-how-to-apply-it-against.html

niall
09-28-2010, 04:20 AM
It's a very interesting question.

Logically you can do aikido techniques from either foot and you will find differences between styles and individual teachers. You can do a right irimi nage for example by stepping in to throw with the left foot (and some schools do shiho nage like that). It just makes more sense to do forward techniques by entering with the back foot (the one closer to the attacker) because you can make a bigger movement, giving yourself more space and momentum to control and attack the uke's centre.

Dan seems like a sincere guy and it's completely unfair to judge him from an aikido point of view because in the end he just doesn't do aikido. Many aikido teachers would have problems with students not doing the technique in front of their centres, students doing the technique high near their faces, and their heels coming off the ground for example. Maybe his way of doing the technique could be effective in MMA - I don't know. Why not talk about it with your teacher.

Cliff Judge
09-28-2010, 10:25 AM
Here are a handful of semi-related thoughts about this:

1) This guy is clearly arguing that basic Aikido techniques are not effective in a street fight. You are unlikely to find anyone on this board who will disagree with that. The basic foot work is not designed for maximum effectiveness in a mugging, it is designed to challenge your neuro-muscular system and give you an opportunity to work on various building blocks of what MAY be, personally for you, effective technique at a later stage of your development.

2) Sometimes when I am on the mat, my kotegaeshi looks just like Dan's modifications....and sometimes that's good and other times it is not. He kind of looks a little vulnerable in that first .gif where he is doing his modified wrist-twist. You really need to have your partner's balance to reduce the threat of that other hand or the feet.

3) One of the assumptions Dan is making here is that you have to allow the force of the incoming punch to just go. Seems to me that sometimes you actually want to seize that wrist, for example if there is a knife in it. I just wrote about this in another thread - maybe he's got another knife in his other hand, a tenkan movement might be something you want to do to avoid that OTHER knife.

4) Dan doesn't seem to be considering a multi-attacker scenario here either.

5) Heck, it isn't just that sometimes you want to seize the wrist. Sometimes you just wind up with that wrist in your hand, and a large turning kote gaeshi is the right thing to do.

Basically, footwork is structured and defined for the purpose of training basics of posture and movement. An applied situation is a much more fluid situation.

Conrad Gus
09-28-2010, 11:52 AM
Just my quick impressions:


The "good" examples seem pretty well done on the part of both uke and nage.
The "bad" examples seem pretty badly done on the part of both uke and nage (uke does not continue to react once they are grabbed and nage just hauls them down).
There are WAY more than 2 good ways to do kotegaeshi and 2 bad ways.
As instructors, we have to teach the technique one step at a time. Sometimes with beginners this means just trying to get the correct hand position and working on the correct body movement another day.


It's a very interesting web page, and it made me think, but the conclusions are over-simplified.

Conrad Gus
09-28-2010, 11:54 AM
Basically, footwork is structured and defined for the purpose of training basics of posture and movement. An applied situation is a much more fluid situation.

+1 to Cliff as well.

chillzATL
09-28-2010, 11:55 AM
one thing that is not made clear in his article is his thoughts on hand position of the kotegaeshi itself, which is as key to the things that he feels are important as anything he discusses in his article. In the few of the clips that you can make it out, they appear to be applying it by pushing on the top of the hand with the thumbs, which is IMO, wrong. It's nearly impossible to put your body weight (something he stresses as important) into is this way. If you lay your hand over the top of their hand it's very easy to put weight into it using just your hands. If you're able to drive it from your center and the ground, all the better. This offsets a lot of what he sees as a need to step in the direction of the throw/lock because gravity and the weight of your hand are doing all of the work, rather than your generally weak thumbs.

jonreading
09-28-2010, 12:57 PM
My initial foot movement for kotegashi is irrimi tenkan, as uke recovers I enter a second time, sankaku no irrimi, ending with my inside foot forward. The triangular foot change slides away from uke, making distance for my kick or punch; if my distance is too close I can continue to enter and apply a hip throw (o goshi, seoi nage, uki goshi, etc.) or foot sweep (osoto guruma). If its just right, I apply kotegashi.

My body structure is oriented towards either striking or pursuing uke; the "come around" mentality of uke should be something like, "oh %#$^, he's behind me - I need to get out of here." I find the kotegashi demonstrated in the IP video to be difficult to apply to a non-compliant uke or seasoned grappler - you are not getting behind those people...they need to get away from you.

One thing I did not see in the video (but it may be there) is that I stress kuzushi during the initial contact with uke. Uke should be off-balance by the time I have committed to tenkan; my tenkan movement should further pressure uke's balance to the front (either froward or rearward) to create a toe-heavy stance. It can be subtle, but If you ain't got that kuzushi you ain't getting behind a good uke...

David Yap
09-29-2010, 01:17 PM
Hi guys! i'm an aikido newbie, 4 years. I saw this write up on kotegaeshi and how some traditional instructors get it 'wrong'. Specifically commmon mistake #1, which is how i was taught. What the author writes seems logical but would appreciate the comment of some more experienced practioners here. is it an improvement on the 'traditional' version of moving the front leg back?

here is the link
http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2010/08/kote-gaeshi-how-to-apply-it-against.html

Hi Kong,

I wouldn't consider a person of 4 years training a newbie. Working kotegaeshi in a drill (intended response) and in actual conflict is not exactly the same. When you execute kotegaeshi you actually committing both your hands against one attacking hand. In such a situation, you would be wary of the other hand which is free to strike you at will. There is no right or wrong footwork. Where you want to position yourself in response to the attack will determine the footwork. Is the attacker structurally strong or is he lining to the attack? Are you within striking distance of his free hand? All these factors will determine the "safe" spot to position yourself.

Most common mistakes of kotegaeshi are not in the footwork but in the execution of the technique itself. The kanji of kotegaeshi is read as wrist reverse or wrist inwards. The primary (basic) kuzushi is executed by the attack to the attacker's wrist by using it as fulcrum and bending the hand or fist towards the elbow. You get this right when the attacker drop his elbow and knees. Next you attack his center via his locked elbow and shoulder joints.

Using body movements to off-balance the attacker and turning the wrist and arm in a wide arc (similar to windscreen wiper) for the throw is another mistake. The technique looks beautiful when the ukemi is taken by a conditioned/compliant uke. When you do the wiping movement, you are directing the attacker's free hand towards your exposed face and side and/or you may create the space whereby he can step in with his back foot to do sumo otoshi (kaeshi waza) on you.

To correct your kotegaeshi, I suggest you train with a non-complying uke who can honestly guide you. A punch to the face is a good trade off with a throw provided you can still throw after being punched. Work on the basics and then fluidity.

Just my 2 sen.

David Y

tarik
09-29-2010, 03:39 PM
He addresses several questions well. The bulk of his comments about footwork can be summarized with this quote:

Moving the front leg in the right direction gives you that instant force by applying your bodyweight to the task. Moving the back leg does not.

...and I agree with him.

I will say that the first time this was presented to me (years ago now), I said clearly that I wasn't taught to do it that way, and then, suprise surprise, in randori, it was pointed out quickly that I WAS doing it that way. Well, even though I was doing it, I still maintain I wasn't taught to move that foot first, but observation shows me that all too many people move the back foot first, and I guess I would add that it frequently isn't corrected because a lot of people think footwork isn't very important or else because they learned it that way (probably from someone else who didn't know better) and insist that it's correct because it's the way they were taught.

I guess I agree with this random blogger about how to fix a lot of people's kotegaeshi practice.

Best,

Michael Varin
09-30-2010, 03:43 AM
I was taught to throw by moving the "forward" foot first.

A more interesting and important question is why would you perform a technique like kote gaeshi?

Cliff alluded to it earlier.

Without the proper context the techniques of aikido, like most things, just don't make much sense.

WilliB
09-30-2010, 04:22 AM
I was taught to throw by moving the "forward" foot first.

A more interesting and important question is why would you perform a technique like kote gaeshi?


You mean in a real conflagration? I would think because the arm is there, you grab it and the technique offers itself from that position. Isnīt that the whole point of getting these things into your body memory?

I donīt think outside of training anybody ever walks around thinking "ok, now I am going to do technique A or B or C..."

Rob Watson
09-30-2010, 10:27 AM
Doesn't this thread belong in the stat-u-uke thread?

Look at that uke ... may all ones assailants be so afflicted.

Honestly in a 'real'TM fight who has time to think about what foot goes where? If that is where one training is then better to simply work on the move more than any applications just yet.

In a 'real'TM fight the mind/intent leads the movement of the body and ones training engages the limbs sort of automatically. Almost no thought about where to put hands or feet even happens. The technique just sort of happens. I know it sounds goofy and a couple of years ago I'd have called BS but now it sort of just happens that way.

Try kote gaeshi without even moving the feet and see just how silly the point about which foot goes where is.

tarik
09-30-2010, 11:47 AM
Doesn't this thread belong in the stat-u-uke thread?

No.


Honestly in a 'real'TM fight who has time to think about what foot goes where?

One point of training is to build in a set of responses so that there is no thinking when under pressure.

In a 'real'TM fight the mind/intent leads the movement of the body and ones training engages the limbs sort of automatically. Almost no thought about where to put hands or feet even happens. The technique just sort of happens. I know it sounds goofy and a couple of years ago I'd have called BS but now it sort of just happens that way.

I see that we apparently agree.


Try kote gaeshi without even moving the feet and see just how silly the point about which foot goes where is.

Except for here. It's not silly at all. If you move the wrong foot, or no foot (unless you also know how to move your center as if you moved the correct foot without moving your feet which very few people I've ever laid hands on can do) you won't get me or lots of people I know in kotegaeshi, ever.

Best,

tarik
09-30-2010, 11:48 AM
I was taught to throw by moving the "forward" foot first.

A more interesting and important question is why would you perform a technique like kote gaeshi?

Cliff alluded to it earlier.

Without the proper context the techniques of aikido, like most things, just don't make much sense.

I think that's a separate thread

Best,

Ketsan
09-30-2010, 07:35 PM
Hi guys! i'm an aikido newbie, 4 years. I saw this write up on kotegaeshi and how some traditional instructors get it 'wrong'. Specifically commmon mistake #1, which is how i was taught. What the author writes seems logical but would appreciate the comment of some more experienced practioners here. is it an improvement on the 'traditional' version of moving the front leg back?

here is the link
http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2010/08/kote-gaeshi-how-to-apply-it-against.html

Figuring out ways of doing kote gaeshi against a punch is kinda like putting down your assault rifle and taking on your sword armed opponent with a spoon; it can be done, but why would you? It's vastly over complicating a fairly simple situation.

Howard Prior
09-30-2010, 10:46 PM
The kanji of kotegaeshi is read as wrist reverse or wrist inwards.

Do you have a sense of the meaning of the kanji for "tsuki"? Does it really mean punch?

Thanks,

Howard

David Yap
09-30-2010, 11:34 PM
Do you have a sense of the meaning of the kanji for "tsuki"? Does it really mean punch?

Thanks,

Howard

Of course not. 突きthrust is more apt. I can't imagine choki (choku) tsuki in jo suburi as "punch with a jo":D

WilliB
10-01-2010, 02:10 AM
Of course not. 突きthrust is more apt. I can't imagine choki (choku) tsuki in jo suburi as "punch with a jo":D

And I canīt imagine "choku tsuki" in Karate translated as "thrust with a fist".

David Yap
10-01-2010, 04:34 AM
And I canīt imagine "choku tsuki" in Karate translated as "thrust with a fist".

And, neither can I imagine in Kendo that "tsuki" is a punch with a shinai:D

WilliB
10-01-2010, 08:11 AM
And, neither can I imagine in Kendo that "tsuki" is a punch with a shinai:D

OK, so shall we argue if the glass is half-full or half-empty? :crazy:

Rob Watson
10-01-2010, 10:47 AM
I guess I agree with this random blogger about how to fix a lot of people's kotegaeshi practice.

Best,

I think we can agree that the heart of the matter is to validate ones practice in a manner appropriate to ones goals OR take someones word for it. If sword wielding ninjas leaping out of the shower are the venue of concern then that is where the validation needs to happen ... if in the dojo sensei says 'good, good' is the venue then that is where to seek validation. One simply needs to be honest with oneself as to the reasons and goals for one own practice and validate accordingly.

When I'm feeling particular masochistic I imagine that at any moment O'sensei's ghost wafts in and bellows 'that's not my aikido!' and then I have to figure out does that really matter to me, everyone else or the universe ... and then what do do about it.

David Yap
10-01-2010, 08:17 PM
OK, so shall we argue if the glass is half-full or half-empty? :crazy:

Or, is a zebra black with white stripes or white with black stripes?:cool:

Janet Rosen
10-01-2010, 09:34 PM
Or, is a zebra black with white stripes or white with black stripes?:cool:

{ahem} actually.... they are black with white stripes (that is, the base coat color is black).

ksy
10-02-2010, 12:05 PM
thank you all for your comments. i will ask less and train more :)

tarik
10-02-2010, 08:13 PM
I think we can agree that the heart of the matter is to validate ones practice in a manner appropriate to ones goals OR take someones word for it. If sword wielding ninjas leaping out of the shower are the venue of concern then that is where the validation needs to happen ...

He was asking about footwork. Ignoring everything else about what the fellow says about ninjas (which I do not actually recall reading about), I believe that he's correct about the footwork.

if in the dojo sensei says 'good, good' is the venue then that is where to seek validation. One simply needs to be honest with oneself as to the reasons and goals for one own practice and validate accordingly.

I agree.

When I'm feeling particular masochistic I imagine that at any moment O'sensei's ghost wafts in and bellows 'that's not my aikido!' and then I have to figure out does that really matter to me, everyone else or the universe ... and then what do do about it.

Exactly. For me.. I'm too busy pursuing my own (and to some extent, my teacher's) aikido to worry about some imaginary ghost. :-)

Best,