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ctoor
09-26-2010, 10:00 PM
In my area we have no access to Japanese shihans, just local people who have practiced aikido for years. When it comes to tanto practice and taking it away from uke, it always looks... slow and kinda sloppy.

Should I be worried that aikido in general is not effective for unarmed taking away tanto, or believe in aikido and that it is powerful enough to take away tanto safely, just I haven't seen it yet?

If the answers that come back are something along the lines of, "you need to study professional knife fighting", then I will take that as a 'no, aikido is not effective (for that)'. Hope you guys can open my eyes.

raul rodrigo
09-26-2010, 10:02 PM
It depends on who is holding the knife.

L. Camejo
09-26-2010, 10:31 PM
In my area we have no access to Japanese shihans, just local people who have practiced aikido for years. When it comes to tanto practice and taking it away from uke, it always looks... slow and kinda sloppy.

Should I be worried that aikido in general is not effective for unarmed taking away tanto, or believe in aikido and that it is powerful enough to take away tanto safely, just I haven't seen it yet?

If the answers that come back are something along the lines of, "you need to study professional knife fighting", then I will take that as a 'no, aikido is not effective (for that)'. Hope you guys can open my eyes.Charles,

I am in Mississauga and tanto randori is a regular part of our practice since we do Tomiki Aikido. My students who are Correctional Officers and Bodyguards have used our Aikido to take away knives quite efficiently in the past without personal injury.

Please note however that the attackers were not trained in knife systems like Kali, Escrima etc. I personally believe that the tactics required in those situations would demand more than a bare handed approach to provide some level of personal safety.

Barring a skilled FMA practitioner however, my guys have fared pretty well. If you want to know more PM me or check us out - www.omai.ca.

Best
LC

raul rodrigo
09-26-2010, 11:14 PM
I have friends who train in pekiti tirsia kali, and given what I have seen, I would prefer not to have to go up against people like them even with a knife in my hands, let alone barehanded.

mickeygelum
09-27-2010, 12:01 AM
I have friends who train in pekiti tirsia kali, and given what I have seen, I would prefer not to have to go up against people like them even with a knife in my hands, let alone barehanded.


This is a very true statement.

Needless to say, I truly wish most aikidoka, whether they be Yoshikan, Shodokan or whatever, but especially Aikikai, re-evaluate their goals in their training.

Aikido is not a complete system, it seriously lacks responses to contemporary methodologies. One must integrate striking/kicking, grappling and knife/stick based arts into their Aikido training, in order to be a well rounded martial artist. Firearms is another area all together.

If you have no real-life experience in any of these areas, do not delude yourself, your peers or your students that Aikido is martially effective in all situations.

Train well,

Mickey

ctoor
09-27-2010, 12:27 AM
Thanks all,

I think aikido is not complete, but it is still great. It is not required to be complete to be great. How would you readers feel if your dojo brought in a kali expert once a week to show knife disarming training? Would you want that?

WilliB
09-27-2010, 12:50 AM
Thanks all,

I think aikido is not complete, but it is still great. It is not required to be complete to be great. How would you readers feel if your dojo brought in a kali expert once a week to show knife disarming training? Would you want that?

Is whatever Kali teaches about knife disarming that different from Aikido? Are there really any magical body movements that allow you to safely take a knife from a knife-wielding attacker?

Personally, I hope I am carrying a good, sturdy umbrella in that situation, or at least can grab some nearby object like a chair.

Failing all that, of course it is better having practised some movements than having practised nothing.

Fwiw, there was a nutcase here in Akihabara a few months ago who stabbed 17 people with a dagger on the street before being apprehended. The video shows that the cops kept him at by with sticks... nothing about fancy "disarmament" moves. (I suppose in countries like the US he´d been perforated by a bullet.)

ChrisHein
09-27-2010, 01:56 AM
Aikido contains all of the tools you'll ever need to take something out of some ones hand. Ikkyo nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, rokyo, and kotegaeshi are the very foundation of disarms. They are universal to all weapon taking systems, although they have different names in different systems.

Now using them in a high pressure situation is another story. Aikido as a system provides the information you need, however you must train in high stress, unknown, freeform situations in order to learn to use them. This is however, true of any system.

SeiserL
09-27-2010, 05:04 AM
Coming from both Aikido and FMA, IMHO it all depends on who is attacking and who who is disarming. I have experienced it working and I have experienced it failing. Its not the system, its the person. If you have concerns, cross train.

mickeygelum
09-27-2010, 08:03 AM
How would you readers feel if your dojo brought in a kali expert once a week to show knife disarming training? Would you want that?

Would we want that...ABSOLUTELY!

Albo Kali Silat is taught in our school, so is Kenpo. Most have grappling, boxing and Judo in their tool boxes, also.

A proficient boxer would embarrass most Aikidoka. Judoka want you to "grab their wrist", grapplers will attack you aggressively... Kali practitioners want to cut, stab and destroy you quickly!

Aikido has it's merits, but not all that are claimed here. Why would you cheat yourself, by not training to attain the best skills possible?

Train well,

Mickey

Cliff Judge
09-27-2010, 09:19 AM
I did some FMA for a little while and had a lot of success using a pretty plain ura kote gaeshi on those guys in knife free-flow drills.

raul rodrigo
09-27-2010, 10:25 AM
I did some FMA for a little while and had a lot of success using a pretty plain ura kote gaeshi on those guys in knife free-flow drills.

Really? I have a few pekiti guys you ought to meet.

Gorgeous George
09-27-2010, 10:29 AM
Really? I have a few pekiti guys you ought to meet.

...and perhaps he has a few aikido guys they ought to meet etc...

L. Camejo
09-27-2010, 10:35 AM
Coming from both Aikido and FMA, IMHO it all depends on who is attacking and who who is disarming. I have experienced it working and I have experienced it failing. Its not the system, its the person. If you have concerns, cross train.Quite correct. I think it is a mistake to blanket ALL Aikido as being ineffective against certain threats or to say that ALL FMA will come out on top in a knife encounter. It really comes down to the individual imho.

We also can't assume a person's training methods in detail from the name of the general method he studies imho. That creates a large opening for surprise in my experience. Underestimate no-one.

Best
LC

raul rodrigo
09-27-2010, 10:45 AM
These are in fact aikido guys, my seniors in my dojo before they went into pekiti. They've seen kote gaeshi before, believe me.

mickeygelum
09-27-2010, 10:52 AM
Underestimate no-one.

So true.

Anyone know who started the rumour it was "not aikido" to hit, kick, stab or punch an attacker?:confused:

Stupid me, probably the same who believes their is no pain involved in proper or proficient taisabaki/kuzushi...just a guess:cool:

Train well,

Mickey

Gorgeous George
09-27-2010, 11:03 AM
These are in fact aikido guys, my seniors in my dojo before they went into pekiti. They've seen kote gaeshi before, believe me.

I wasn't disputing that.
I was saying that what you said was the beginning of a pissing contest - i.e., 'Well such and such a person could do this to you'...to which someone else replies 'Yeah, well they could never do that to this person...' and 'round and 'round.

I think the saying 'It's not the martial art - it's the martial artist' applies, is what i'm saying.

raul rodrigo
09-27-2010, 11:08 AM
True enough. Its the man not the art.

L. Camejo
09-27-2010, 11:37 AM
So true.

Anyone know who started the rumour it was "not aikido" to hit, kick, stab or punch an attacker?:confused:

Stupid me, probably the same who believes their is no pain involved in proper or proficient taisabaki/kuzushi...just a guess:cool:
Nice post. :D

Cliff Judge
09-28-2010, 09:59 AM
True enough. Its the man not the art.

No, wait.

I am not saying "I managed to do the nearly impossible task of successfully applying a core Aikido technique against a trained knife fighter, because I am a serious badass."

I am saying "If somebody like ME can pull of a kote gaeshi against one of these Kali guys, then true Aikido (anecdotal Aikido actually) is effective for disarming."

I succeeded because I managed to connect with my partner, take his balance and not give it back, and move way off the line. These are basic Aikido concepts that, if they exist in the system of Kali I trained in, they must be upper level concepts taught after some time training.

Aikibu
09-28-2010, 12:27 PM
You will not take away a knife without severe/fatal consequences from any skilled knife fighter regardless of what martial system you use...

You can train up for it... get really good at it... and practice all day long... but all you need to do is make one mistake.

Thank God most folks who try to use a knife don't really know how to...but If I see some dude with proper knife fighting form in front of me well...:eek: It's safe for me to assume it's no longer about "disarming."

William Hazen

raul rodrigo
09-28-2010, 06:11 PM
To me, it would be about running.

L. Camejo
09-28-2010, 09:09 PM
To me, it would be about running.Interesting that you say that. In knife training I found out that running away may not be as easy as I first thought.

The reason is because of that pesky 21 foot rule thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill).

Just thought I'd mention it.

Best.

LC

raul rodrigo
09-28-2010, 09:22 PM
Interesting that you say that. In knife training I found out that running away may not be as easy as I first thought.

The reason is because of that pesky 21 foot rule thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill).

Just thought I'd mention it.

Best.

LC

Yes, Larry, a Kali friend of mine showed me that once. Yes, the effective distance is pretty big for a Kali guy. So basically I'm screwed up close, and I'm not that well off even with some distance between us. Pretty much FUBAR, either way, it seems to me.

best

R

jonreading
09-29-2010, 11:37 AM
I seem to recall several knife camps that demonstrate what serious users can accomplish with the proper knife and skills. I would find it hard to believe that you are taking that knife away...

I think a drawn and trained gun at 15 feet is effective for disarming a knife. I think aikido training is more effective at self-preservation than no training.

We cannot even de-bone our chicken meat any more. The simple fact is that even with "training" most of us, if ever confronted with a knife, would not be competent to defend ourselves against a knife let alone use a knife.

Also, I would put forth that we [aikido people] often think about weapons "taking" as the active removal of a weapon from our partners. I have been looking more closely at a different interpretation of weapons taking that involves your partner releasing the weapon to you. Under this interpretation, it is more plausible that a skilled weapons user may release the weapon to your possession when it no longer benefits him to continue holding it.

I have met far too many competent knife and sword people to continue to believe that weapons taking actually has anything to do with me taking something from them.

OwlMatt
11-19-2010, 01:36 PM
If you want to see how aikido works against an opponent who is really trying to stab you, watch some Shodokan style competition.

ravenest
11-22-2010, 08:06 PM
If you want to see how aikido works against an opponent who is really trying to stab you, watch some Shodokan style competition.

Do you have a ref for that or a site I can watch. I have NEVER seen a competition where someone is really trying to stab someone (unless its like they do in the Philippines). I have seen plenty of DEMOS but not a competition with a knife using Aikido.

The demos are a bit obvious, even the realistic looking ones, one can see where the technique is about to happen as the decisive attack is often telegraphed deliberately (and sometimes hidden from the audience ;) )

I would never use one of the aikido knife taking techniques on a person brandishing a knife ... unless they handed that specific opportunity to me on a platter, ie. they didnt know how to attack.

I organised some knife defense/fights (outside the dojo - home training) once, with large red texta pens. The results were quiet surprising and confronting for a few people.

But then a LOT of what we do in the dojo isnt fit for the street IMO.

Mark Mueller
11-23-2010, 07:45 AM
"If you want to see how aikido works against an opponent who is really trying to stab you, watch some Shodokan style competition."

Ahhh...but because it is competition one knows the attacker has a knife....there are a proscribed set and methods of attacks allowed.....a dummy weapon is used....and there is no intent to kill on the part of the attacker.

So while it is a bit more intense than what is normal tanto dori practice it still not even remotely close to what a real knife attack would be.

mickeygelum
11-23-2010, 07:59 AM
So while it is a bit more intense than what is normal tanto dori practice it still not even remotely close to what a real knife attack would be.

Absolutely true...it is a regulated sport/competition, it can not be real.

Shodokans' training and proficiency standards, on-the-whole, far exceed most others flavors.

Tony Wagstaffe
11-23-2010, 02:55 PM
Absolutely true...it is a regulated sport/competition, it can not be real.

Shodokans' training and proficiency standards, on-the-whole, far exceed most others flavors.

:D

Still keep my tanbo behind my cab seat though......:rolleyes:

Cliff Judge
11-23-2010, 04:30 PM
If you want to see how aikido works against an opponent who is really trying to stab you, watch some Shodokan style competition.

But that's not how Aikido works when someone is trying to stab you, because its a competition, so the range of techniques you are allowed to perform is limited, and there are rules you can game.

mathewjgano
11-23-2010, 05:28 PM
But that's not how Aikido works when someone is trying to stab you, because its a competition, so the range of techniques you are allowed to perform is limited, and there are rules you can game.
So while it is a bit more intense than what is normal tanto dori practice it still not even remotely close to what a real knife attack would be.
Strictly speaking that is "how Aikido works" though, isn't it? It's just that it's applied to a very limited setting. A lot of things are practiced with rules: are they all unreal (i.e. unrelatable to real life situations)? I think it's more correct to describe it as non-comprehensive rather than to suggest that all attacks will never look like that.
...I'm probably just nit-picking the language though.:o
FWIW

dps
11-23-2010, 08:33 PM
It depends on your how you train to response to the attack. The first instant is crucial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6CdH6xHcgo&playnext=1&list=PLFE794B9ADFCFD1FC&index=11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6j0II4RPqU&feature=channel

dps

Aikibu
11-23-2010, 11:22 PM
It depends on your how you train to response to the attack. The first instant is crucial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6CdH6xHcgo&playnext=1&list=PLFE794B9ADFCFD1FC&index=11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6j0II4RPqU&feature=channel

dps

Outstanding...The difference between survival and harm can be measured in seconds and inches. Thanks for the clips. This is why Atemi is 90% of Aikido.

William Hazen

Tony Wagstaffe
11-24-2010, 10:05 AM
Outstanding...The difference between survival and harm can be measured in seconds and inches. Thanks for the clips. This is why Atemi is 90% of Aikido.

William Hazen

It's been my experience..:straightf

Tony Wagstaffe
11-24-2010, 10:12 AM
Absolutely true...it is a regulated sport/competition, it can not be real.

Shodokans' training and proficiency standards, on-the-whole, far exceed most others flavors.

So Shodokan players up the tempo out of the arena with attacks from all angles, that makes it more fun and tells you when and where you would have been cut, stabbed, sliced or diced. Good practice for/ from the flinch reaction..... One hopes :straightf

OwlMatt
11-24-2010, 10:17 AM
But that's not how Aikido works when someone is trying to stab you, because its a competition, so the range of techniques you are allowed to perform is limited, and there are rules you can game.

In reply to this comment, and all the others like it, of course sport competition is not and cannot be equated to self-defense. But Shodokan-style competition can at lest provide an insight into how aikido techniques are used against opponents who are going to attack full speed every time, who are going to feint rather than committing their whole momentum to every attack, who are going to fight the defender's technique, etc.

Bud
11-24-2010, 02:43 PM
I used to practice Aikido (for more than 10 years) and now teach Pekiti Tirsia Kali and have been doing so for a number of years.

Coming from an Aikido background to PTK, the difference between the two regarding knives is immense.

It'll be difficult to compare the two re knife defense but here goes:

Aikido in general trains to defend against a single slash or thrust, usually with the attacker taking a step forward. In PTK the maai is much closer - close enough to stab at arm's length, and the attack is never a single slash or thrust, rather a series of rapid and flowing cuts and stabs, with the empty hand assisting in the attack.

During my Aikido days, knife attacks were simple stabs and slashes, with the attacker allowing me to apply a technique. In PTK a knife attack is trained as a full on assault, with the attacker rushing in and using both the weapon and his empty hand to drive the knife to its targets. Blocking the knife attacks won't work, you'll just open up other targets for the attacker to get to as he redirects his weapon around your blocks. So applying a yokomen parry to apply a kotegaeshi will be answered by a quick slashing downward to the aikidoka's torso or thighs, followed by a thrust to the kidneys.

A properly trained PTK student will know all the usual empty handed knife defenses (blocks and locks like kotegaeshi and hiji kime) and will be trained to counter them. The way these are countered isn't't something I'd like to discuss in detail here but suffice to say that trying these defensive tactics on someone trained in PTK will get you killed much faster. Someone trained to use a knife might even want you to try grabbing for the weapon as bait for sneaky counterattack. When I was first started studying PTK I had the habit of trying to hold or grab the knife hand and I learned very quickly why I needed to change that habit LOL!

PTK empty handed knife defenses are rather hard to briefly describe however it is firmly rooted in the idea that the knife will be constantly and quickly moving and trying to chase after it is futile and suicidal. There is not a single magical technique but rather a series of defensive options based on a realistic understanding of what a knife can do and how it will be used. To learn to defend against a knife you need to know how it'll be used, which is why we usually teach knife use before knife defense. Part of the key to good knife defense is atemi, and lots of it.

I hope that I don't make PTK sound like a school of bloodthirsty assassins or I'm bashing aikido. I'm just giving my 2 cents on this, since PTK has been mentioned and I used to do aikido. I strongly recommend that aikidoka interested in investigating realistic knife defenses and attacks should invite a PTK teacher or student and see how the weapon is realistically applied.

Hope this helps..:)

Tony Wagstaffe
11-24-2010, 03:07 PM
It does!:) :D ;)

Tony Wagstaffe
11-24-2010, 03:11 PM
In reply to this comment, and all the others like it, of course sport competition is not and cannot be equated to self-defense. But Shodokan-style competition can at lest provide an insight into how aikido techniques are used against opponents who are going to attack full speed every time, who are going to feint rather than committing their whole momentum to every attack, who are going to fight the defender's technique, etc.

Aids in teaching what can and can't be done.... truth is no one knows unless attacked for real with a razor sharp knife... most end up badly cut, injured or dead.......

mickeygelum
11-24-2010, 03:53 PM
I hope that I don't make PTK sound like a school of bloodthirsty assassins or I'm bashing aikido. I'm just giving my 2 cents on this, since PTK has been mentioned and I used to do aikido. I strongly recommend that aikidoka interested in investigating realistic knife defenses and attacks should invite a PTK teacher or student and see how the weapon is realistically applied.


I absolutely concur.....No one will fault you for speaking the truth...except for those ready-made-for-slaughter aikibunnies ! :D

Train well,

Mickey

raul rodrigo
11-25-2010, 01:15 AM
Let me just say that when Buddy Acenas talks about knife use and knife defense, he knows what he's talking about.

Tony Wagstaffe
11-25-2010, 04:32 AM
Looking on the humorous side I suppose I'll just have to carry my nihonto (bloody great big sword!!) around, just in case.....?:D ;)

ravenest
11-25-2010, 07:11 PM
I used to practice Aikido (for more than 10 years) and now teach Pekiti Tirsia Kali and have been doing so for a number of years.

Hope this helps..:)

Thankyou - a good post and a clear point I was trying to make badly in the other knife thread.

edshockley
03-31-2011, 11:31 AM
I am entering the thread late but this and similar questions come up constantly as new students enter our dojo. Earlier someone noted the unavoidable fact that the fitness and ability of each combatant is key. Mike Tyson without a tanto is more dangerous than Al Sharpton with a switchblade. The basic question of Aikido's efficacy we feel misses the essence of training. We repeat a prescribed movement ten thousand times to sensitize ourselves to a response. This is the process of kata. In michi waza(street situations) most of what will remain is just the rhythm, timing, poise and movement from the dojo. Kotegaeshi may become "parry punch" but the success is because of the responses encoded in muscle memory. Henry Smith Shihan teaches that if I am trapped in a position where I must practice tanto tori then my Aikido has already failed. I should have left the bar, or parked near the guard post or been already talking on the phone to the 911 dispatcher before the knife was drawn. This mindset, free of testosterone blindness, is the highest practice of O'Sensei's art.

Michael Hackett
03-31-2011, 03:00 PM
I just attended a Bob Koga seminar last weekend. For those who don't know of Koga Sensei, he is the architect of "Practical Aikido" and a long-time police defensive tactics instructor. Originally a martial artist, Koga Sensei became "The Man" for law enforcement with LAPD. All this is to suggest that he knows what he's talking about.

He made the statement that martial artists have an advantage over the average person when confronted with a knife, but they could also count on one of two consequences when defending unarmed: they will die or be seriously injured. He said the only way he would attempt to take a knife away while unarmed is if he were locked in an empty room, stark naked, with his attacker. Otherwise he would attempt to flee or find a weapon of some sort.

He said the major advantage to being a martial artist is the development of awareness over time and the skill to see and feel when trouble is brewing. Since most of his teaching is to cops, he doesn't use terms like "ma ai" or "zanshin", but rather distance and awareness.

Can you do it? Sure. Will you be injured? Quite probably. Should you do it? Only if you have no other choice.

Bud
04-09-2011, 12:22 PM
Henry Smith Shihan teaches that if I am trapped in a position where I must practice tanto tori then my Aikido has already failed. I should have left the bar, or parked near the guard post or been already talking on the phone to the 911 dispatcher before the knife was drawn. This mindset, free of testosterone blindness, is the highest practice of O'Sensei's art.

Absolutely. It's always best to back away from a situation that may escalate beyond the usual fistfight. Where I live, fistfights can very easily lead to the introduction of edged weapons. If a situation starts getting tense, expect sharp and pointy things to be tossed into the mix.

It's irresponsible for a teacher of any system to delude his or her students that a knife attack can be easily defeated with the techniques they teach. "Testosterone blindness" + knife attack + unrealistic expectations re knife defense = bad, bad news for the defender

I consider PTK knife training as an education in respecting the weapon, knowing what it can do. By studying how to use it and the damage it can do, my students realize the risks and they lose any cockiness they might have with engaging an attacker with a knife while empty-handed. I always teach empty handed knife defense as a last ditch response to a worst case scenario.

Which is why I strongly recommend that aikidoka studying both the formal tanto dori waza they need to do in the dojo and defenses used against more realistic knife attacks. Practicing the standard knife defenses is ok; it's part of Aikido and if I recall correctly, required for some Aikikai yudansha exams. But I do hope that most Aikidoka look beyond the formal techniques and see how they can be applied against the typical street attack.

sakumeikan
04-09-2011, 03:43 PM
Hi everyone,
The question posed by the initial writer is this-is true aikido effective for disarming knife attacks?The answer is yes.However
the point I am making is this , are we doing true aikido?Some may well be doing so, others no.
I also consider any attack be it empty hand or knife or whatever has got to be faced with a very determined mind set. If confronted by a bad scene you cannot afford to be complacent.You must be totally aware of your surroundings, use your common sense, assess the situation and if humanly possible ,get the hell out Kincaid as John Wayne might say.If you cant avoid the situation use whatever it takes to finish the job asap.Aikido demos are not truly representative of what takes place outside the dojo.
As it happens I was out with my missus and a pal in a local bar tonight and this guy got a bit shirty with me.At first I thought he was pulling my pl-----r.I soon realised he was working his ticket. I guess he thought I was a bit of a mug .Anyway after a brief exchange of 'friendly dialogue 'he left rather sharply.Fortunately it didnt come to blows. The rest of the pub clientele were a little bit taken back.Moral of the story-sometimes when you are in a good mood , some prat tries it on,so as a good friend of mine [a certain American ex marine] says ,maintain constant vigilance and eternal suspicion.
Cheers, Joe.
Ps For the benefit of the fellow Geordies amongst our readers
the bar was the Salutation Arms, Tynemouth.

Michael Hackett
04-09-2011, 05:17 PM
Joe's story reminds me once again of Winston Churchill's comment that we are"two nations separated by a common language."

sakumeikan
04-09-2011, 05:31 PM
Joe's story reminds me once again of Winston Churchill's comment that we are"two nations separated by a common language."

Dear Michael,
What part of my story do you apparently fail to comprehend?As a nation that gave us Hip Hop /Rap I would have thought you could understand almost any dialect.
Cheers, Joe.

Lyle Laizure
04-09-2011, 08:08 PM
So true.

Anyone know who started the rumour it was "not aikido" to hit, kick, stab or punch an attacker?:confused:

Stupid me, probably the same who believes their is no pain involved in proper or proficient taisabaki/kuzushi...just a guess:Mickey

Well said.

George S. Ledyard
04-09-2011, 08:50 PM
So true.

Anyone know who started the rumour it was "not aikido" to hit, kick, stab or punch an attacker?:confused:

Stupid me, probably the same who believes their is no pain involved in proper or proficient taisabaki/kuzushi...just a guess:cool:

Train well,

Mickey

Two comments here...

1) what typically separates the disarms in Aikido from the disarms in the Asian blade systems is the amount of impact, or what we would call atemi, that precedes the actual disarming technique. In Kali / Silat typically there has been an eye flick, followed by one or more strikes (elbows, knees, etc.), the, if it presents itself, the strip.

Dan Inosanto once told one of my friends that he didn't like to teach the stripping techniques to students too early because once you taught them, the students started to try to get them. His point was the the disarms and stripping techniques should be an integral part of the striking pattern, not a separate technique. The moment you start going for the disarm rather than striking the center, you are open.

I trained for a couple years off and on with Chris Petrilli, Canete's senior American student in Doces Pares escrima. Their system is a blend of Escrima and Aikido. If you want to see Aikido done in full combat mode, these guys have a great take on it. By the time you see a disarm or a throw, the attacker is more than half dismantled by the impact techniques utilized.

In my own Defensive Tactics system, our basic program called for an entry and two to three solid impact techniques before you even thought about going for the disarm. This is my great objection to much of the weapons disarming training, not limited to Aikido. There simply isn't enough impact technique involved.

2) The statement about kuzushi and pain. If your technique is working because of pain, anyone who doesn't care if it hurts, if they don't feel pain at the time, whatever, they'll beat it.

Kuzushi should be something they don't even feel coming.

Michael Hackett
04-10-2011, 12:39 AM
Joe,
There was nothing apparent about my lack of comprehension. You use slang that I think I understand, but don't want to make that assumption. "A bit shirty", "pulling my pl....r", "working his ticket", "bit of a mug" were all beyond my experience. I took from context that you meant he was becoming confrontational, actually only joking, becoming a bully, and beheld you as an easy victim.

We have our own little phrases as well and our cousins across the pond can sometimes be equally bewildered. For example, we don't have ex-Marines. Ours are always Marines whether currently serving or having formerly served.

Unfortunately I am culturally stilted and the only rapper I understand is Kid Rock and that isn't a constant.

sakumeikan
04-10-2011, 01:23 AM
Joe,
There was nothing apparent about my lack of comprehension. You use slang that I think I understand, but don't want to make that assumption. "A bit shirty", "pulling my pl....r", "working his ticket", "bit of a mug" were all beyond my experience. I took from context that you meant he was becoming confrontational, actually only joking, becoming a bully, and beheld you as an easy victim.

We have our own little phrases as well and our cousins across the pond can sometimes be equally bewildered. For example, we don't have ex-Marines. Ours are always Marines whether currently serving or having formerly served.

Unfortunately I am culturally stilted and the only rapper I understand is Kid Rock and that isn't a constant.
Dear Michael,
You are correct in respect of the meaning of slang phrases I used. I am sure I would get the drift of any U.S.A. phrase [having been in your fair country loads of times].
Regarding the Marines , thanks for the clarification.My U.S.A.
aikido colleague would be by your definition a formerly served member of the service.
In respect of rap , I am also culturally stilted in this department.
I am more a Roy Orbison , Elvis fan.Hope we can bridge the lanquage barrier!! I also hope you are well. Good to hear from you,
All the best , Joe

Michael Hackett
04-10-2011, 01:37 PM
Joe,

Where I really get lost is when you folks start with the Cockney word substitution. I get lorry and lift, even bangers and mash, but am totally lost when you guys start in with the poetic rhymes. I'm left without a clue - or would that be something like "doubts in glue"?

Michael Varin
04-11-2011, 04:39 AM
1) what typically separates the disarms in Aikido from the disarms in the Asian blade systems is the amount of impact, or what we would call atemi, that precedes the actual disarming technique. In Kali / Silat typically there has been an eye flick, followed by one or more strikes (elbows, knees, etc.), the, if it presents itself, the strip.

Dan Inosanto once told one of my friends that he didn't like to teach the stripping techniques to students too early because once you taught them, the students started to try to get them. His point was the the disarms and stripping techniques should be an integral part of the striking pattern, not a separate technique. The moment you start going for the disarm rather than striking the center, you are open.

I trained for a couple years off and on with Chris Petrilli, Canete's senior American student in Doces Pares escrima. Their system is a blend of Escrima and Aikido. If you want to see Aikido done in full combat mode, these guys have a great take on it. By the time you see a disarm or a throw, the attacker is more than half dismantled by the impact techniques utilized.

In my own Defensive Tactics system, our basic program called for an entry and two to three solid impact techniques before you even thought about going for the disarm. This is my great objection to much of the weapons disarming training, not limited to Aikido. There simply isn't enough impact technique involved.
Frankly, this too is a little unrealistic.

The whole area of "knife disarming" is so infected with dogmatic beliefs that I doubt anyone has a clear view of it.

If someone is armed with a knife, and you attempt to strike them to "soften them up," you will likely not be pleased with the results if they are content to cut whatever you throw out there.

One punch knockouts aside, if you attack someone who is armed with an edged weapon with empty-hand strikes, I would say that you do not understand the nature of the advantage a blade gives a man.

Atemi has a role, but the over-emphasis on atemi in these situations does not reflect the wisest of strategies.

Ultimately, we must learn all the techniques and tactics that we can, then let our intuition and judgment guide us in any given situation… That's where the "art" comes in.

Cliff Judge
04-11-2011, 08:54 AM
If someone is armed with a knife, and you attempt to strike them to "soften them up," you will likely not be pleased with the results if they are content to cut whatever you throw out there.


I wouldn't at all mind it if a knife-wielding attacker stabbed the brick I picked up to hit him with. In fact, I encourage such behavior.

graham christian
04-11-2011, 05:53 PM
I have been following this thread interested in where it would lead to.

This is because, as most of you will have experienced some time or other, that when some people find you do a martial art there's always someone with a 'what if I did this or what if I did that.'

The thing that use to bug me was things like someone with a knife or metal bar etc. especially when they would say 'how would you harmonize with this then?'

I finally found out what bugged me when I realized it was the unfairness of the question. Implicit in those type of questions is the scene that you have to do a nice flowing move without harming or hurting them whilst their rules can be different.

I say this because when talking about imaginary knife attacks the first thing to realize is you need a specific attitude of mind to handle them, one that can only be gained in Aikido by sword practice. From that viewpoint I would say that Aikido is very well equipped for that, depending on the level of practitioner and not forgetting the level of competance of the knife wielder.

Once again from my view I emphasize certain principles and states of being over any thought of technique.

When practicing, or rather teaching the sword I do not emphasize the cutting through etc. for the student. I emphasize only that they learn to cut through where they are meant to, be it slow or med or fast. However more important than that is I train them to face a bokken.

Now I will show them what I am going to do and proceed to do it, slowly at first, whether they have a bokken in hand or empty handed. Now here's the thing: If their mind is taken by the weapon-they get hit. If they move too early- they get hit. If they move too late- they get hit. If they try to attack the weapon- they get hit. If they move out or jump away they get followed and hit.

This discipline extant in Aikido is to develope a certain state of mind for use in similar cicumstances in life. The reality being two basic things really. To learn how to in those circumstances enter and take out. One, two. Even though this is quite a stage of competance to reach it is only by being eventually comfortable with that that the practitioner can afford to be more lenient with the aggressor, thus stages on the way to harmony.

So putting a situation of someone not very comfortable or even experienced at that level of Aikido versus a knife is not very wise. So the question is more to do with level of practitioner of Aikido rather than can Aikido do this or that.

Just some of the things to develope first include:

1) To be able to focus on the source, the person holding the blade, unfazed by the movement of the weapon.

2) To at the same time have zanshin which is totally aware of every movement of the weapon yet still with calmness and clear mind.

3) To be thoroughly aware of maai at all times, nothing to do with the eyes.

4) To know that as soon as maai is breached you must already be entering without hesitation.

5) To know your destination which is straight through the opponent.

These are just some things which need developing first before you can 'see' the center line which makes the knife look like a pendulum of a clock so to speak. Some will know what I mean by that.

A lot involved, even more than I have stated yet there is a lot involved in Aikido. Thus the demonstrations seen should be looked upon in the correct light as a phase of learning rather than representing real battle.

Add on to that this is only my take on the subject so it doesn't come across as a lecture.

Regards.G.

Fred Little
04-15-2011, 04:16 PM
Having dipped into this thread with various degrees of astonishment, disbelief, bemusement, and what-have-you, I remained silent.

Then a current student told me about being attacked by someone with a knife in Orange, NJ late last week. Maybe it's irrelevant since he didn't bother to take the knife away, but the bottom line is that everybody walked away uncut, and that's quite enough for me.

FL

mathewjgano
04-15-2011, 10:08 PM
Having dipped into this thread with various degrees of astonishment, disbelief, bemusement, and what-have-you, I remained silent.

Then a current student told me about being attacked by someone with a knife in Orange, NJ late last week. Maybe it's irrelevant since he didn't bother to take the knife away, but the bottom line is that everybody walked away uncut, and that's quite enough for me.

FL

Amen to that!

Michael Varin
04-16-2011, 04:38 AM
Then a current student told me about being attacked by someone with a knife in Orange, NJ late last week. Maybe it's irrelevant since he didn't bother to take the knife away, but the bottom line is that everybody walked away uncut, and that's quite enough for me.
How is that possible? Great, knowledgeable instructors have told us that that cannot be done.

He made the statement that martial artists have an advantage over the average person when confronted with a knife, but they could also count on one of two consequences when defending unarmed: they will die or be seriously injured.

Michael Varin
04-16-2011, 04:46 AM
I wouldn't at all mind it if a knife-wielding attacker stabbed the brick I picked up to hit him with. In fact, I encourage such behavior.
I think you know that took my statement out of context as I was clearly talking about empty hand strikes, but let's use this as an opportunity.

As I said, some posters did not seem to understand or appreciate the nature of the advantage an edged weapon affords.

A brick definitely increases your chances of a one hit KO, but barring that, would you want to trade blows brick vs. knife? Who wins the battle of attrition?

The knife is a superior weapon; therefore you must overcome it with superior tactics.

Cliff Judge
04-19-2011, 09:46 AM
I think you know that took my statement out of context as I was clearly talking about empty hand strikes, but let's use this as an opportunity.

As I said, some posters did not seem to understand or appreciate the nature of the advantage an edged weapon affords.

A brick definitely increases your chances of a one hit KO, but barring that, would you want to trade blows brick vs. knife? Who wins the battle of attrition?

The knife is a superior weapon; therefore you must overcome it with superior tactics.

I apologize for being flippant. Do you have any tactics you would like to discuss? George gave a brief description of a reasonable tactic - delivering a few aggressive strikes to a knife-wielding attacker before worrying about stripping the knife - which was part of a training product he had created for law enforcement and security personnel. You refuted it off-hand without really offering anything in response, and furthermore didn't seem to understand what he was talking about.

Tony Wagstaffe
04-19-2011, 10:30 AM
Go and see Jon & Mickey.....:)

Tony Wagstaffe
04-19-2011, 10:59 AM
I think you know that took my statement out of context as I was clearly talking about empty hand strikes, but let's use this as an opportunity.

As I said, some posters did not seem to understand or appreciate the nature of the advantage an edged weapon affords.

A brick definitely increases your chances of a one hit KO, but barring that, would you want to trade blows brick vs. knife? Who wins the battle of attrition?

The knife is a superior weapon; therefore you must overcome it with superior tactics.

Preferably a dustbin lid if available, trouble is they are like coppers......:)

Wheelie bins are bloody useless....!!

Chris Covington
04-19-2011, 11:08 AM
Hey Cliff et al,

Have they been talking about my secret art of Brick-fu in the Hobyokan? I made them all sign a keppan!

Joking aside when people who don't do martial arts ask me what I would do if someone did this or that I usually say pick up a brick and beat them upside the head with it and then run. This gets all kinds of shocked looks because they'd expect me to say something about crane kicks or an MMA move etc. In some ways it is a lot like people who say jo/bo techniques are practical because you can pick up a stick, broom, etc. and use it if you needed to. You can find a broom or long stick anywhere right? Has anyone looked around while they walk down the street for makeshift weapons that you could deploy almost instantly in a situation? There aren't any! Walking my dog (mine is a 15 lbs pekingese... girlfriend's dog is an 80lbs lab-pitbull mix) down my street the other day I really started to think about this. All of the front yards in my neighborhood are fenced off. My best bet would be MAYBE someone has a garden gnome I could reach over and grab. But then how much time would I really have to start reaching into someone's yard before being stabbed, shot or otherwise assaulted?

So this brings be to the 2nd half of my art of brick-fu since I won't likely find a brick lying about: RUN! I think too many people become "what-if warriors" and too many martial arts cater to that. "What if I'm in a dead end alley and can't run and I HAVE to fight them what do I do?" "Oh you do this that and the other moves blah blah blah." Why did you go down a dark deadend alley? It doesn't make sense. Budo should be a heiho and going down a dead end alley or really any alley is not a smart move. Poor heiho. Go to the place with more people, stay on well lit main streets, have some knowledge of where you are even if you only mapquest the area before you go to a new place. Avoid trouble areas and hot spots, look for broken windows in an area and realize that you might want to turn around. Most of us have no reason to be in nasty neighborhoods. First rule of surviving Zombieland (or Knifeworld) is cardio. Another good one: when in doubt know your way out.

Sorry for the rant. Just some thoughts I've been stewing with.

I wouldn't at all mind it if a knife-wielding attacker stabbed the brick I picked up to hit him with. In fact, I encourage such behavior.

Cliff Judge
04-19-2011, 11:13 AM
Go to the place with more people, stay on well lit main streets, have some knowledge of where you are even if you only mapquest the area before you go to a new place. Avoid trouble areas and hot spots, look for broken windows in an area and realize that you might want to turn around. Most of us have no reason to be in nasty neighborhoods. First rule of surviving Zombieland (or Knifeworld) is cardio. Another good one: when in doubt know your way out.

Sorry for the rant. Just some thoughts I've been stewing with.

Right on, Chris.

I make it a point to be the scariest / sketchiest person in my neighborhood. I figure if I get mugged by myself, I will have only myself to blame. :p

Chris Covington
04-19-2011, 11:33 AM
Right on, Chris.

I make it a point to be the scariest / sketchiest person in my neighborhood. I figure if I get mugged by myself, I will have only myself to blame. :p

You live in Columbia dude, you might actually be the sketchiest person there. When guys like me Arman and Brian show up to places like that they call the National Guard.

KaliGman
04-19-2011, 08:11 PM
Two comments here...

1) what typically separates the disarms in Aikido from the disarms in the Asian blade systems is the amount of impact, or what we would call atemi, that precedes the actual disarming technique. In Kali / Silat typically there has been an eye flick, followed by one or more strikes (elbows, knees, etc.), the, if it presents itself, the strip.

Dan Inosanto once told one of my friends that he didn't like to teach the stripping techniques to students too early because once you taught them, the students started to try to get them. His point was the the disarms and stripping techniques should be an integral part of the striking pattern, not a separate technique. The moment you start going for the disarm rather than striking the center, you are open.

I trained for a couple years off and on with Chris Petrilli, Canete's senior American student in Doces Pares escrima. Their system is a blend of Escrima and Aikido. If you want to see Aikido done in full combat mode, these guys have a great take on it. By the time you see a disarm or a throw, the attacker is more than half dismantled by the impact techniques utilized.

In my own Defensive Tactics system, our basic program called for an entry and two to three solid impact techniques before you even thought about going for the disarm. This is my great objection to much of the weapons disarming training, not limited to Aikido. There simply isn't enough impact technique involved.

2) The statement about kuzushi and pain. If your technique is working because of pain, anyone who doesn't care if it hurts, if they don't feel pain at the time, whatever, they'll beat it.

Kuzushi should be something they don't even feel coming.

George,

I agree with some of what you are saying, but there is some error as well. For one thing, there is no "typical" disarm in the silat or kali/escrima systems, just as there is no "typical" disarm in the aikido systems. Since there are hundreds of styles of silat alone, "typical" is rather hard to define. Secondly, eye flicks are not normally the first technique in a disarm, as you would be defanging the snake and hitting/controlling/destroying the weapon bearing limb on your entry, and, if you can rake the eyes, you have already entered. Those who enter without trying to do something to the blade bearing limb first we generally call "dead men." You are correct, though, in saying that the strip is incidental. In reality, disarms only sometimes present themselves. In real fighting, as I tell my students when I hold up a knife and wave my arm, "The best disarm is when 'dis arm right here does not work anymore." Limb destructions are the norm in many of the Southeast Asian combat systems. Going against a knife armed attacker is extremely dangerous and going against one unarmed is not something that anyone should take lightly or really want to do at all. If you have to do it, though, since the attacker is using lethal force on you, you are generally best served with rendering his weapon arm unusable, and/or rendering him incapable of any aggressive movement (through injury, unconsciousness, death, etc.). You have to be extraordinarily good and very, very lucky to be able to do the "put the guy down without hurting him thing." Generally, you just get cut up if you try, at least from what I have seen in full contact sparring with training blades and in actual attacks with the blade. This brings me to you discussing Mickey's statement on kuzushi. You actually are both correct, since I think you are talking at cross purposes. You are absolutely correct in your definition of pure kuzushi. However, Mickey was talking in this instance about the blade environment, and usually, when he posts, he is posting from a realistic combat perspective, and one where he has survived multiple lethal force encounters as a police officer. In a blade confrontation, as Mickey trains with me and well knows that arm destructions are often the norm when attempting to minimize injury to oneself and control the attacker's blade, he was merely stating that there is going to be pain during the balance disruption (or whenever the attacker comes off his recreational pharmaceutical or adrenaline induced high), because the balance disruption is most likely to occur at the point in time when the attacking limb is destroyed. Broken bones, torn cartilage, and ripped tendons and ligaments hurt. From personal experience I can say that sometimes they don't hurt immediately, but the pain does kick in at some point or other and the connection to center and the damage inflicted sure plays holy hell with your balance if it is done right. Mickey is good at getting kuzushi, and can do it without hurting people. When the fight is for real, though, and his safety is at stake, he, like I, will be taking balance while destroying connective tissue and bones, so we can be sure that our opponent stays down. Just as "shoot to stop" is the mantra in law enforcement firearms training, "hit/throw/etc. to stop" is our mantra when it comes to an empty hand, impact weapon, or blade encounter where we start out unarmed and have to deal with a serious threat of injury or death.

KaliGman
04-19-2011, 08:15 PM
How is that possible? Great, knowledgeable instructors have told us that that cannot be done.

People win the lottery too, but if you are planning your retirement around a winning lottery ticket rather than saving and investing, then I wish you the best of luck. If you are planning to subdue experienced knife-wielding thugs with the standard unarmed "dojo defenses" most practice, then I recommend you just buy the lottery ticket and plan to retire to Tahiti, as you will probably have better odds of success with that than with the knife fighting.

KaliGman
04-19-2011, 08:32 PM
Frankly, this too is a little unrealistic.

The whole area of "knife disarming" is so infected with dogmatic beliefs that I doubt anyone has a clear view of it.

If someone is armed with a knife, and you attempt to strike them to "soften them up," you will likely not be pleased with the results if they are content to cut whatever you throw out there.

One punch knockouts aside, if you attack someone who is armed with an edged weapon with empty-hand strikes, I would say that you do not understand the nature of the advantage a blade gives a man.

Atemi has a role, but the over-emphasis on atemi in these situations does not reflect the wisest of strategies.

Ultimately, we must learn all the techniques and tactics that we can, then let our intuition and judgment guide us in any given situation… That's where the "art" comes in.

Well, the most realistic thing is, when people attack with knives, you respond with lethal force. Disarms sometimes present themselves. Destructions of the limb are usually easier to accomplish and safer for the defender to use. George is quite correct in saying striking is important. I do believe, in this instance, that he and I are on the same page. This strategy is not easy and is not for everyone. I am not concerned with ''average" or "good enough", but with excellence. If you have put in the time and training to divorce your hands and feet so they can move independently, then you are able to conduct the footwork necessary to enter, while striking the attacker's arm, then sticking and bridging it across his body, simultaneously using the other arm to strike for the head or other target on the center line of the attacker. The entering footwork comes in at an angle and slams into the inside thigh of the opponent while all this is going on and turns his pelvis, taking balance. The defender's hands continue to move, hit, break, twist and do nasty things to the bad guy, generally several attacks per second. Generally, an elbow or shoulder of the bad guy gives way, a takedown presents itself or a potentially lethal targeting area opens up and is engaged. This can be done reliably under stress with the correct training. As for not knowing and dogmatic---maybe. But then, I have sparred full-contact, knife against knife, empty hand against knife, etc. for years, have faced knives in a few lethal force encounters in my years of law enforcement, and have only received a relatively minor cut or two. Really, unless you have spent an awful lot of time doing blade on blade sparring and working with the knife in a system that teaches blade combat, you probably are not going to be very good against the knife. I am sure that there are exceptions to this, but I have yet to meet one.

KaliGman
04-19-2011, 08:39 PM
Go and see Jon & Mickey.....:)

Come on Tony, that would not be as fun as talking theory on the Internet. I have been known to tip over a few sacred cows when people train with me and, if in a particularly grumpy mood, to grind those cows up into tasty burgers.:p .

George S. Ledyard
04-20-2011, 01:04 AM
George,

I agree with some of what you are saying, but there is some error as well. For one thing, there is no "typical" disarm in the silat or kali/escrima systems, just as there is no "typical" disarm in the aikido systems. Since there are hundreds of styles of silat alone, "typical" is rather hard to define. Secondly, eye flicks are not normally the first technique in a disarm, as you would be defanging the snake and hitting/controlling/destroying the weapon bearing limb on your entry, and, if you can rake the eyes, you have already entered. Those who enter without trying to do something to the blade bearing limb first we generally call "dead men." You are correct, though, in saying that the strip is incidental. In reality, disarms only sometimes present themselves. In real fighting, as I tell my students when I hold up a knife and wave my arm, "The best disarm is when 'dis arm right here does not work anymore." Limb destructions are the norm in many of the Southeast Asian combat systems. Going against a knife armed attacker is extremely dangerous and going against one unarmed is not something that anyone should take lightly or really want to do at all. If you have to do it, though, since the attacker is using lethal force on you, you are generally best served with rendering his weapon arm unusable, and/or rendering him incapable of any aggressive movement (through injury, unconsciousness, death, etc.). You have to be extraordinarily good and very, very lucky to be able to do the "put the guy down without hurting him thing." Generally, you just get cut up if you try, at least from what I have seen in full contact sparring with training blades and in actual attacks with the blade. This brings me to you discussing Mickey's statement on kuzushi. You actually are both correct, since I think you are talking at cross purposes. You are absolutely correct in your definition of pure kuzushi. However, Mickey was talking in this instance about the blade environment, and usually, when he posts, he is posting from a realistic combat perspective, and one where he has survived multiple lethal force encounters as a police officer. In a blade confrontation, as Mickey trains with me and well knows that arm destructions are often the norm when attempting to minimize injury to oneself and control the attacker's blade, he was merely stating that there is going to be pain during the balance disruption (or whenever the attacker comes off his recreational pharmaceutical or adrenaline induced high), because the balance disruption is most likely to occur at the point in time when the attacking limb is destroyed. Broken bones, torn cartilage, and ripped tendons and ligaments hurt. From personal experience I can say that sometimes they don't hurt immediately, but the pain does kick in at some point or other and the connection to center and the damage inflicted sure plays holy hell with your balance if it is done right. Mickey is good at getting kuzushi, and can do it without hurting people. When the fight is for real, though, and his safety is at stake, he, like I, will be taking balance while destroying connective tissue and bones, so we can be sure that our opponent stays down. Just as "shoot to stop" is the mantra in law enforcement firearms training, "hit/throw/etc. to stop" is our mantra when it comes to an empty hand, impact weapon, or blade encounter where we start out unarmed and have to deal with a serious threat of injury or death.

Actually, I would have included limb destruction in my general category of impact technique... but it's not a term that is generally used within the Aikido community so I didn't get into it.

I would stand behind my use of "typical" but only if we are talking broadly... Kali and Silat, while consisting of a huge number of actual styles, do have certain things which would identify them as having a South Asian flavor... I am certainly no expert here. Picked up a bit from students of Guru Dan and trained just a bit with Chris Petrilli. Other than reading Don Dreager, that's the limit of my expertise. On the other hand, it's more than most Aikido folks have, so I offered my opinion.

I taught Defensive Tactics for years... had my own system even. I never had to use what I taught to defend myself... but one of my students, a Seattle PD officer at the time, did survive an attack with an edged weapon and credited the practice we had done with his success. I've also had some lengthy discussion with Peyton Quinn, a man who has survived two attempts to kill him with edged weapons, and we are pretty much on the same page. He definitely falls into the category of using a lot of impact technique on the attacker. Since it saved his life twice I am sticking with him as an authority. Most of the rest of us "experts" haven't actually had to use their technique for real...

While I am an Aikido teacher. I defer to other systems and others folks experiences when it comes to areas in which it is patently obvious that Aikido's standard set of responses are simplistic and unrealistic. I'd trust my skills against an untrained attacker... against my equivalent in a blade guy? No contest... the expert with a knife will beat an unarmed guy every time. Unarmed knife defense is for use against people who aren't trained. Against any other level of skill, well it's pure darn luck if you survive that.

Tony Wagstaffe
04-20-2011, 03:03 AM
Come on Tony, that would not be as fun as talking theory on the Internet. I have been known to tip over a few sacred cows when people train with me and, if in a particularly grumpy mood, to grind those cows up into tasty burgers.:p .

I'd come to you and Mickey for that little extra, :) unfortunately there is a bloomin' great pond to get over. Had you guys be not too far up the road I would be there asking for your instruction please......
I have seen the stuff you guys get up to, when I was in the Philippines in 1970 and I believe every word you say, sliced, diced and roasted......:hypno:
At present I carry a Tanbo, well actually it's an old jo that broke when I threw someone with it (it is well hidden at the back of my cab seat)
The cab has a metal and toughened glass barrier just like the older style London cab. It's there just in case some one is carrying, one never knows these days!!
I prefer to even up the odds...... The threat of knife crime is on the increase here so I take no chances. I always carry minimum cash for change, so if they want that I'll give it to them in more ways than one....;) As you know cabbies are at great risk and are very vulnerable. It's more likely that those carrying have no real skill, but that doesn't mean they could get lucky..... Why take chances....?
Preparation and awareness is safety also sizing up the odds quickly.
It just amazes me that so many cabbies do not take that precaution, when I hear about really bad assaults I think to myself, if you knew or felt they were iffy? Why the bloody hell take them? I always go by my gut instinct, and so far it has served me well.... No cabbie worth his salt is that naive, if they are, they should not be doing the job.
You guys take care out there....;)

Ellis Amdur
04-20-2011, 11:07 AM
George wrote: the expert with a knife will beat an unarmed guy every time. Unarmed knife defense is for use against people who aren't trained. Against any other level of skill, well it's pure darn luck if you survive that.

I agree on a functional level - waza, technique, capabilities of harm of the weapon vs. unarmed.

BUT - there is a certain attitude - kiai - which is specifically trained for in martial arts - and I think particularly within Japanese martial arts - which is exemplified by the expression, "Whatever happens, I'm going home tonight."
There are, I think, three wings of esoteric training in Japanese martial arts:
1. internal training (a lot said about that these days, and even practiced as well).
2. "Spiritual" - including mikkyo, Taoism, neo-Confucianism - the transformation of the human being who is practicing, for tactical, moral and religious/spiritual purposes
3. Kiai - the development of will and the ability to focus one's being to achieve a goal - in this case, the bending, the manipulation or the shattering of the other person's composure or combative ability.
I mention this because it has, on a personal level, saved my life, and also because this is one of the neglected areas of study, even in modern-day koryu. Without kiai, the best waza in the world will not take you very far. With it, you can sometimes overcome the "superior" fighter. This last statement is factual. Your attitude in such circumstances, does not include the word "sometimes."
Best
Ellis

DH
04-20-2011, 12:04 PM
I think presumptions abound;
1. That the knife wielder knows what they're doing with a knife,
(the presence of a knife is only a game changer to the degree that the one who is holding it has the experience and/or will to use it)
2. That you must control the knife hand,
(sometimes the knife wielder is just as much knife "fixated" as you are...it can limit the options of the both of you)
3. That the knife is lethal,
(far from the truth)
4. That surviving knife attacks makes you some sort of expert.
(reports are rare and attacks are singular and anecdotal, and many times people are just plain lucky, not necessarily tactically proficient)
5. That training tanto or stick(s) in an aikido dojo automatically makes you competent in a real world confrontation
(So far, either by personal experience or video, I have never seen this to be true, of those I have met who train knife and stick, they are taken apart easily. Most people can be dominated by a combination of trained, true aggression and a mindset that is used to getting hurt and still getting the job done. There is a trained mental state that most martial artists cannot and do not know how to deal with.)
6. Knife attacks are the same
(Knife attacks are so atypical, that the only thing that is consistent about them is their lack of consistency.)

7. The predator mindset is "safer"
Predatory mindset is supposed to be different from a fight (typically Predators will not risk much to get a meal), yet evidence has shown that -depending on where you are- some people will go all the way with you, risking everything, for a few dollars.

That said I have been stabbed and sliced, twice, booted in the head beat with bar stools, on and on...in general I have had my life in my own hands more than a few times....I'm the one who went home that night. I don't consider myself an expert in the slightest, yet I have not met the typical modern martial arts teacher yet who I could not completely decimate with a knife and I am far from alone or even unusual in that regard. Those that specifically train weapons and then do so freestyle with armor-on, have a different mindset and tactical awareness that is palpable. You are not going to ever approach that from doing "kata" or "randori" in a traditional setting-as many who are stepping out recently are finding out. Put simply...it's different. It is for very good reason that those who train that way, argue about it with those who's pursuits are a bit more "casual."
Cheers
Dan

Tony Wagstaffe
04-20-2011, 12:36 PM
I think presumptions abound;
1. That the knife wielder knows what they're doing with a knife,
(the presence of a knife is only a game changer to the degree that the one who is holding it has the experience and/or will to use it)
2. That you must control the knife hand,
(sometimes the knife wielder is just as much knife "fixated" as you are...it can limit the options of the both of you)
3. That the knife is lethal,
(far from the truth)
4. That surviving knife attacks makes you some sort of expert.
(reports are rare and attacks are singular and anecdotal, and many times people are just plain lucky, not necessarily tactically proficient)
5. That training tanto or stick(s) in an aikido dojo automatically makes you competent in a real world confrontation
(So far, either by personal experience or video, I have never seen this to be true, of those I have met who train knife and stick, they are taken apart easily. Most people can be dominated by a combination of trained, true aggression and a mindset that is used to getting hurt and still getting the job done. There is a trained mental state that most martial artists cannot and do not know how to deal with.)
6. Knife attacks are the same
(Knife attacks are so atypical, that the only thing that is consistent about them is their lack of consistency.)

7. The predator mindset is "safer"
Predatory mindset is supposed to be different from a fight (typically Predators will not risk much to get a meal), yet evidence has shown that -depending on where you- are some people will go all the way with you, risking everything, for a few dollars.

That said I have been stabbed and sliced, twice, booted in the head beat with bar stools, on and on...in general I have had my life in my own hands more than a few times....I'm the one who went home that night. I don't consider myself an expert in the slightest, yet I have not met the typical modern martial arts teacher yet who I could not completely decimate with a knife and I am far from alone or even unusual in that regard. Those that specifically train weapons and then do so freestyle with armor-on, have a different mindset and tactical awareness that is palpable. You are not going to ever approach that that from doing "kata" or "randori" in a traditional setting-as many who are stepping out recently are finding out. Put simply...it's different. It is for very good reason that those who train that way, argue about it with those who's pursuits are a bit more "casual."
Cheers
Dan

Sounds honest to me Dan.... Seems we can agree on some things...
I haven't always got away unscathed, on one occasion many years back in my early years of aikido I had my head stomped on for being "too nice" and was close to death needing hospital treatment, my head looking like a football. I recovered quickly, but still have feint scars for testament....... It hasn't happened since.....

Aikibu
04-20-2011, 02:37 PM
Thanks Dan. great Post and the most realistic assessment I've seen here.

William Hazen

Aikibu
04-20-2011, 03:03 PM
I would like to add Dan That though I agree about most Aikido It really helps that we train with weapons as the basis for our practice and that I bring years of combat training to the equation. The Problem with most practice is (as you mentioned) Martial Mindset which is sorely lacking in most cases. Also you folks should check out James Williams Sensei. His Koryu and combat approach is used by many different LE and SO units.

Knives and Edged Weapons have two components. Physical and Psychological. More often that not the Armed Attacker's Psychological Edge over an opponent makes up for their lack of skill with a blade. Any Practice that does not take this into account and incorporate it into their training might as well not practice it at all. Knife "take aways" should not be something you practice "every once in a while". They should have their own core curriculum within your practice. The difference between a live blade and a wooden tanto is huge and is a factor that must be considered.

The Predator mindset uses this 'fear" factor as it's primary component. If you don't learn to practice, adapt, and blend with the instant "adrenaline dump" you experience in the first minute when someone shows a knife no amount of casual training may help. Predators count on this element of surprise and a good knife fighter won't show his blade until it's half way in your stomach.

William Hazen

Keith Larman
04-20-2011, 03:04 PM
Just fwiw... A friend of mine with limited martial arts training but who had spent time boxing for health was mugged in an alley. He never saw the knife. All he knew is one guy grabbed at him and another was behind him. Since he was grabbed he did the only thing he knew -- he punched the guy in front of him as hard as he could in the face. My friend said he was both scared and angry (how dare you attack me -- I have a wife and child at home!) He had no doubt he busted the guy's nose pretty badly (blood everywhere, he stumbled away, etc.). Anyway, both bad guys took off. My friend started to walk away and realized his leg hurt -- voila, knife sticking out. Oops. So he stumbled into view, got help, etc. I don't know all the details from that point on but nothing critical was hit even though the pocket knife was fully inserted into his thigh. Nice scar. Lost a little blood but not too much, pressure controlled the bleeding.

Another friend was mugged on a trip to New York. Someone came up behind him and pressed a knife to his back. That friend reacted poorly (just give him the damned watch) and tried to turn and was stabbed in his back for his troubles. He didn't realize he was stabbed, however for a short time (same as my other friend). Again, a night in the hospital, a bit of cleaning and stitches, but no major injury really.

Final story. When my wife first went to work in the medical field (diagnostic imaging) she worked at a large hospital in downtown Los Angeles. Spent time working the emergency room. Lots of shootings, stabbings, etc. She was surprised that the "lethality" (is that a word?) of stabbings was so varied and hard to predict. In one day she'd see some guy who looked like he ran into a food processor who'd go home later in the day with a lot of stitches and then someone else with a single seemingly small puncture who ended up in the morgue.

Anyway... The point of all this for me is that it is a really complicated issue. I've played with people on the mat who do serious old-school tanto stuff. I'd never want to run into that in the real world. I've played with some of the FMA guys -- I should say I basically died repeatedly... Scary stuff. But the average bad guy on the street? Who knows. He might do something stupid or he might just kill me in a blink.

FWIW I really like Dan's comment about weapon fixation and it's something I harp on. Both with respect to the guy holding it and the guy trying to take it away. In my first example my friend didn't realize there was a knife but I suppose the muggers never thought someone would just punch their face in ignoring the knife.

Sorry, nothing really substantial else to add. Me, I try to avoid knife fights... And if I'm ever faced with one, well, I suppose it will sound rather un-aikido like but I hope I'm going to do as much damage as possible to that bastard as fast as I possibly can. How? Sheesh, don't know -- it'll depend on what he does. Scary stuff.

Michael Hackett
04-21-2011, 01:34 AM
One of the things we've learned in the police world is the view of a knife versus a gun. A firearm is intimidating certainly, but most people have never experienced what a firearm can do to another human, except on TV and then the actor shows up on the following sitcom. We've all been cut by knives at one time or another and generally know how dangerous they are. As a result people are usually far more frightened of a knife than they are of a gun.

On the other hand a real knife man will cut you to ribbons before you even realize a knife is part of the equation. In my own limited view, if your assailant lets you see his blade, he probably isn't a skilled knife fighter. Does that mean that you can defend yourself more effectively? Perhaps. Maybe he will be really clumbsy in his attack and maybe he will panic and go crazy with his blade.

You're certainly better off than someone who does no martial art at all, but unless you train constantly and rigorously for knife defense, you are going to be injured, and perhaps injured badly.

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 09:55 AM
One of the things we've learned in the police world is the view of a knife versus a gun. A firearm is intimidating certainly, but most people have never experienced what a firearm can do to another human, except on TV and then the actor shows up on the following sitcom. We've all been cut by knives at one time or another and generally know how dangerous they are. As a result people are usually far more frightened of a knife than they are of a gun.

On the other hand a real knife man will cut you to ribbons before you even realize a knife is part of the equation. In my own limited view, if your assailant lets you see his blade, he probably isn't a skilled knife fighter. Does that mean that you can defend yourself more effectively? Perhaps. Maybe he will be really clumbsy in his attack and maybe he will panic and go crazy with his blade.

You're certainly better off than someone who does no martial art at all, but unless you train constantly and rigorously for knife defense, you are going to be injured, and perhaps injured badly.

Good honest to sense words there Michael....:cool:

ChrisHein
04-22-2011, 11:46 AM
This whole discussion comes down to the fatal flaw that we martial artists all share. We want to know about martial things, fighting, and weapons etc, yet we're mostly a pretty peaceful group, so we don't do a lot of it.

Some here have done some soldiering, a few of us have gotten in more fights then we'd like to, some are peace officers, some competitors and the vast majority have little to no actual fighting experience (outside of a dojo or tournament).

We expect martial arts training to make us capable fighters, but the truth is only fighting can do that. Sure we can learn useful skills, sound strategies, improve our physical ability, improve our will power, gain focus and awareness, etc. But we're not ever going to get life and death (weapon) fighting experience without getting in those kinds of fights regularly.

One time a Karate guy asked me if I knew how to break an arm, I told him I did not. He seemed really shocked, and reminded me that I did lots of Jujutsu and Aikido, I must know how to break an arm. I told him that I had never broken anyones arm, and while I know lots of theories about breaking arms, I had never experienced the sensation, so I didn't really know how to break an arm.

We can go even deeper with this understanding, which leads us to a place none of us really want to go. Even if you are an experienced fighter, have been in many fights, and learned much from them, every fight is a new experience. There are no guarantees. A quicker or stronger person with no training or experience my defeat you in the blink of an eye. There is no technique that works 100% of the time. There is no system that grants constant success. Things just are what they are.

So back to the question at hand, "is true Aikido effective for disarming". Aikido does teach numerous ways in which you can take something out of someone's hand. If you spar with these methods regularly, you can gain the ability to do this under pressure, against someone resisting you. Does this guarantee anything, nope. Can it give you some perspective on the problem, likely. Will it make you like Batman, in no way shape or form.

Tony Wagstaffe
04-22-2011, 12:29 PM
That is a really good post Chris, bears things succinctly, my train of thought to.... thank you

Aikibu
04-22-2011, 01:01 PM
Good Post Chris. Please note I have broken a an arm as have some of the folks here. :) I am not sure that those experiences help with my training though it was my training that "helped" me break those arms. So there may be a disconnect there.

For example every LEO certifies with their firearm every year. Most and some of us soldiers also enhance this training with combat pistol courses. Learning to fire their weapons under duress.

Most of them never shoot anyone during their entire LEO Career. Does that mean when the time comes their training will be of no use because they have never actually shot someone? I don't really think you believe that. I have watched your Your You Tube Videos and you guys look serious. I admire that. :)

Personally I happen to believe the old saying (To paraphrase) "The more sweat in the Dojo The less blood on the street."

In any Martial Practice the Martial Mindset/Spirit is Earned. Never Given.

"Sincere Heart Through Austere Practice."- Shoji Nishio Shihan

William Hazen.

Aikibu
04-22-2011, 01:16 PM
FYI Chris- Some outside insight into our practice by a member of Kampaibudokai.

http://www.kampaibudokai.org/Nishio.htm

Please note that since this review was published... Yoshida Sensei has continued to modify and improve upon our Iaido and Aikido. I am sure the other Senior Students of Nishio Shihan are also doing the same.

William Hazen

ChrisHein
04-22-2011, 04:05 PM
For example every LEO certifies with their firearm every year. Most and some of us soldiers also enhance this training with combat pistol courses. Learning to fire their weapons under duress.

Most of them never shoot anyone during their entire LEO Career. Does that mean when the time comes their training will be of no use because they have never actually shot someone? I don't really think you believe that. I have watched your Your You Tube Videos and you guys look serious. I admire that. :)

Personally I happen to believe the old saying (To paraphrase) "The more sweat in the Dojo The less blood on the street."

William Hazen.

Hey William,
I believe martial arts training can, and does help one deal with physical conflict that takes place outside of the Dojo. However when people start asking questions like "what martial art system is best for real life fights", or "what martial art system trains you to defeat an armed attacker" we are headed down a slippery slope.

Training to use a pistol is a good example. In theory shooting a piece of paper, and shooting a person should be the same. People who have done both will tell you they are most decidedly not in anyway the same thing. Does that mean we have to shoot people in training, no. Does it mean that training with a paper target is useless, no again. It simply means that we must realized the limitations of our training, and see what we are really doing when we train in the martial arts.

When we train in the martial arts we are not fighting, we are training. We learn about things that might have use in physical conflict. We learn about ourselves and our limitations. We learn lots about martial things. But none of this can ever give us the actual experience of doing them, on the fly, when your life is in danger.

Usually when people ask questions like "is true Aikido effective for disarming", they are looking for a guarantee. They want someone to assure them that if they eat their vitamins, say their prayers, and put the time in, they will be able to beat up the toughest guy on the block. The truth is, no such system can ever exist.

This is way saying things like, Filipino fighting system "X" is better then Japanese system "Z" is a waste of time. All we can do is learn, keep an open mind, and learn.

DH
04-22-2011, 05:22 PM
Usually when people ask questions like "is true Aikido effective for disarming", they are looking for a guarantee. They want someone to assure them that if they eat their vitamins, say their prayers, and put the time in, they will be able to beat up the toughest guy on the block. The truth is, no such system can ever exist.

This is a way saying things like, Filipino fighting system "X" is better then Japanese system "Z" is a waste of time. All we can do is learn, keep an open mind, and learn.
When it comes to weapons, there are most certainly better ways to train than others. Saying a method is better than another method is most certainly "not a waste of time". IMO, particularly when one has seen consistent results comparing various methods and people in them over the years.
I think stating "All training is equal" is the PC version of "martial art speak," often espoused by those with limited exposure to more sophisticated methods and models. No harm, no foul, it's just simply all they are capable of seeing.

Case in point:
You yourself have made the argument that for ring fighting or one on one fighting, aikido is not the best or most suited method. In your view aikido is best for multiple attacks and for weapons.
In much the same way I would say that for a host of reasons...when it comes to weapons work...aikido foot work and movement and its use of-weapons are most certainly not the best or most efficient method for fighting with weapons as judged by every person who has reached a certain level of exposure and experience I am familiar with or have read of.
I've also never seen or heard of experienced weapons people leaving their art and opting for aiki-weapons and aikido movement as a superior method of effective weapons work...not even once, instead the opposite is true.

While I understand that may be difficult to hear and process, it speaks to the ever increasing exposure aikido-ka have had to traditional weapons work and their oft repeated commentary both public and private. You can then up the anti, to include people who have trained traditional and modern weapons and then also went on to train with armor and freestyle full contact work.
Regards
Dan. ..
.

ChrisHein
04-22-2011, 06:16 PM
The problem I have is with the "certain level of exposure".

Again we get into a realm of fantasy and trust. "There are certain experts in certain areas who know more then you so trust them..."

Some people feel confidant that others can give them reassurances about what they can an cannot do. This is a fantasy based on a high level of comfortability with others telling you what is right and wrong. Therein lies the problem. Without an educated opinion you can't know what "works" and what doesn't. Without an educated opinion you won't know when someone reaches "a certain level of exposure". You can't get an educated opinion without being in numerous armed conflicts. If you've been in numerous armed conflicts you don't need someone to tell you what "works".

Speaking to my opinions on Aikido, I've been in numerous unarmed one-on-one conflicts, both in and out of the ring. I offer my opinion that Aikido is not an optimal system for these encounters. I usually follow this with, "try it out for yourself". I have done a large amount of sparring with weapons, mostly in controlled environments. I have found Aikido technique to be of great use in these situations, again I add "try it out for yourself".

So try it out for yourself.

Aikibu
04-22-2011, 06:55 PM
Hey William,
It simply means that we must realized the limitations of our training, and see what we are really doing when we train in the martial arts.

When we train in the martial arts we are not fighting, we are training. We learn about things that might have use in physical conflict. We learn about ourselves and our limitations. We learn lots about martial things. But none of this can ever give us the actual experience of doing them, on the fly, when your life is in danger.

Usually when people ask questions like "is true Aikido effective for disarming", they are looking for a guarantee. They want someone to assure them that if they eat their vitamins, say their prayers, and put the time in, they will be able to beat up the toughest guy on the block. The truth is, no such system can ever exist.



Understood Chris. Again without sounding like a broken record. In my experiance...The purpose all Modern/Gendai Japanese Budo is to develop a Martial Mindset/Spirit. The Koryu practices have also evolved from pure combat systems into (here's a weighted phrase) Spiritual Disciplines. No one strolls around much anymore like Mushashi testing the their Fighting Skills in combat. Even O'Sensei realized that the peak of anyone's Martial Arts Practice was not the ability to vanquish every opponent but to achieve mastery over yourself. If you can accomplish this then almost all fighting (except in self defense) is rendered moot. That's why I find these kinds of 'disarming" questions ludicrous. The point being like all Martial Practices you get out of it what you put into it. You want to learn knife takeaways using Aikido? Put the time and effort in...Keep an open mind...and practice hard.

Shoji Nishio's View was (and one I have come to accept) That Aikido in order to be a Budo Had to be a Martial Art and MUST be effective against other Martial Arts both Gendai and Koryu. Almost all the Koryu Arts are based on the sword. Nishio Shihan thought it sad that Some Aikido folks discontinued this "Aikido is the Sword" philosophy, and he thought it would eventually ruin the future development of Aikido. In his view Aikido without weapons is not anything more than dancing. You cannot have one (Budo) without the other (Martial Art).

That is the main reason I hope you continue to "seek a better way" of doing things. I applaud your efforts and your own personal journey in this regard. I too spend my time in Aikido "seeking a better way" It is a core philosophy of our practice. In that regard One of these days I hope to learn from Dan Hardin or one of his students about Aiki. It can only make our/my Aikido better.

Some folks would argue that this is not "true" Aikido. It is something different. I would strongly disagree.

See you on the mat one of these days. :)

William Hazen

Janet Rosen
04-22-2011, 07:31 PM
See you on the mat one of these days. :)


Hmmm.... gonna have to "bump" that California meet up thread... :D

DH
04-22-2011, 07:34 PM
Again we get into a realm of fantasy and trust. "There are certain experts in certain areas who know more then you so trust them..."

Some people feel confidant that others can give them reassurances about what they can an cannot do. This is a fantasy based on a high level of comfortability with others telling you what is right and wrong.
I'm not sure why you opt for fantasy based on comfortability.
Is there a reason it has to be that way?
Why can't it include reality based on getting our ass handed to us by a superior skill set from someone we don't like very much and are un-comfortable with?

I don't know about you but I have met many men who knew more than me. and yes...I trusted them and learned from them, sometimes in areas I did not believe were going to work, and here is a key point: I could not make what they were teaching me work in freestyle fighting (at first) so I simply HAD to trust them in order to move forward. At one point I quit because I could not make it work. I later went back. So the key was indeed, trust.
I'm glad I did because I saved myself from turning into a strength based grappler, and from three different men; from wasting my time in the wrong direction with weapons.

Therein lies the problem. Without an educated opinion you can't know what "works" and what doesn't. Without an educated opinion you won't know when someone reaches "a certain level of exposure". You can't get an educated opinion without being in numerous armed conflicts. If you've been in numerous armed conflicts you don't need someone to tell you what "works".
Being in armed conflicts only teaches you the limits of what you know, not what the potentials are.
Case in point in umarmed conflict:
I am quite sure that Dan Severn would have lectured you till you fell asleep on his knowledge of what worked based on his experience. That ended in about three minutes witth a guy a hundred pounds less than him. What did HE learn? That in fact he did not know some very critical things..........

We take what we have learned somewhere and we test it and we draw conclusions. A broader range of exposure to other systems and other skilled men usually tends to temper us and grow us at the same time.

Reinvention V stumbling in the dark trying to find better solutions.
This is an interesting dilema I see repeated by all of us; young and old in martial arts. We/ they are convinced that testing leads to a knowledge of what works. Problem is what they are really testing is the limits of what they know and what they can make work. In many respects they are re-inventing the wheel while earnestly looking for solutions that many times have already been dicovered, codified, refined and vetted...through real combat in armed situations by many other men.
I propose that
a. They could have saved a shitload of time
b. They could have jumped light years ahead with new experimentation based on superior information leading to more sound conclusions from their very real future experimentation.
People do like to forge their own way through the weeds....
Instead of taking a well worn path
Oh well..

Speaking to my opinions on Aikido, I've been in numerous unarmed one-on-one conflicts, both in and out of the ring. I offer my opinion that Aikido is not an optimal system for these encounters. I usually follow this with, "try it out for yourself". I have done a large amount of sparring with weapons, mostly in controlled environments. I have found Aikido technique to be of great use in these situations, again I add "try it out for yourself".

So try it out for yourself.
Well, I am quite sure from our discussions in the past, that our experiences in training and learning are from very different sources of information.
Further, that our testing is of a different methodology.
We only ...finally...arrive at a similar end where we test full on.
But, interestingly, I have not gleaned the same results and opinions as you, and yet oddly enough we are both going at it with and without armor right?
So how do you explain our different results and opinions if all testing is supposed to arrive at the same conclusions.... of what works?
Just say'n
Dan

DH
04-22-2011, 07:50 PM
That is the main reason I hope you continue to "seek a better way" of doing things. I applaud your efforts and your own personal journey in this regard. I too spend my time in Aikido "seeking a better way" It is a core philosophy of our practice.
On any other day I applaud Chris's mindset as well-it was/is my own. I just see some flaws in the logic of the approach is all

In that regard One of these days I hope to learn from Dan Hardin or one of his students about Aiki. It can only make our/my Aikido better.
Some folks would argue that this is not "true" Aikido. It is something different. I would strongly disagree.
See you on the mat one of these days. :)
William Hazen
Well, unless they are lying to my face (always a possibility) Those I meet tells me either:
a) in their view this is the aiki in aikido and or Daito ryu
b) they don't really know (or even care) what the aiki in aikido or Daito ryu was supposed to be, but they want what I am doing anyway.
c) This is the power in their "X" art.
I'm just me. I no longer care about the what or where anymore either.
And William, it's Harden not Hardin.
Hope to see ya this fall when I come back to Calif.
All the best
Dan

Aikibu
04-22-2011, 08:08 PM
In a world of Proven Superior Martial Techniques vs Handguns, Automatic Weapons, Fuel Air Explosives and Nukes...What is the relevance behind learning any Martial Art or Fighting Style?

Done for now... back to trudging through the (my) weeds chasing Bodhidharma. :)

William Hazen

DH
04-22-2011, 08:10 PM
In a world of Proven Superior Martial Techniques vs Handguns, Automatic Weapons, Fuel Air Explosives and Nukes...What is the relevance behind learning any Martial Art or Fighting Style?

Done for now... back to trudging through the (my) weeds chasing Bodhidharma. :)

William Hazen
"Budo is about living, not dying." .......Otake

Aikibu
04-22-2011, 08:13 PM
On any other day I applaud Chris's mindset as well-it was/is my own. I just see some flaws in the logic of the approach is all

Well, unless they are lying to my face (always a possibility) Those I meet tells me either:
a) in their view this is the aiki in aikido and or Daito ryu
b) they don't really know (or even care) what the aiki in aikido or Daito ryu was supposed to be, but they want what I am doing anyway.
c) This is the power in their "X" art.
I'm just me. I no longer care about the what or where anymore either.
And William, it's Harden not Hardin.
Hope to see ya this fall when I come back to Calif.
All the best
Dan

Forgive me Dan for misspelling your name. :) Thanks for your great posts. I really can't wait for you to show me my two left feet. LOL :)

Thank You (in advance) also for giving me the opportunity to learn from you. :)

Namaste'

WIlliam Hazen

Aikibu
04-22-2011, 08:15 PM
"Budo is about living, not dying." .......Otake

Perfect!!! :)

William Hazen

Michael Varin
04-23-2011, 05:38 AM
I don't consider myself an expert in the slightest, yet I have not met the typical modern martial arts teacher yet who I could not completely decimate with a knife and I am far from alone or even unusual in that regard.
Decimate:
To destroy or kill a large part of (a group).
To inflict great destruction or damage on.
To reduce markedly in amount.
To select by lot and kill one in every ten of.

Potential grammatical usage errors aside, this is a bold statement even by your high standards, Dan.

Can you please clarify?

Are you the one with the knife while decimating or are you the unarmed man? Do other weapons factor into your "decimation"?

When you say "modern martial arts", do you mean Georges St. Pierre, Brock Lesnar, Marc Denny, John Shaw, Gabe Suarez, or your average 45 year old aikidoist who spends 40 hours per week at his desk job?

What would account for this ability, as un-expert and far from unusual as it may be?

I really don't understand.

KaliGman
04-23-2011, 09:10 AM
When it comes to weapons, there are most certainly better ways to train than others. Saying a method is better than another method is most certainly "not a waste of time". IMO, particularly when one has seen consistent results comparing various methods and people in them over the years.
I think stating "All training is equal" is the PC version of "martial art speak," often espoused by those with limited exposure to more sophisticated methods and models. No harm, no foul, it's just simply all they are capable of seeing.

Case in point:
You yourself have made the argument that for ring fighting or one on one fighting, aikido is not the best or most suited method. In your view aikido is best for multiple attacks and for weapons.
In much the same way I would say that for a host of reasons...when it comes to weapons work...aikido foot work and movement and its use of-weapons are most certainly not the best or most efficient method for fighting with weapons as judged by every person who has reached a certain level of exposure and experience I am familiar with or have read of.
I've also never seen or heard of experienced weapons people leaving their art and opting for aiki-weapons and aikido movement as a superior method of effective weapons work...not even once, instead the opposite is true.

While I understand that may be difficult to hear and process, it speaks to the ever increasing exposure aikido-ka have had to traditional weapons work and their oft repeated commentary both public and private. You can then up the anti, to include people who have trained traditional and modern weapons and then also went on to train with armor and freestyle full contact work.
Regards
Dan. ..
.

That was quite well said.

Armor, no armor, aluminum training knives, wooden training knives, sticks as fighting knife simulators, steel training knives, folding training knives (my favorites, since folding knives are so common and carrying a folding knife and only training with a 8 inch bladed fixed blade trainer is not a good recipe for success when using that folder), armed versus the blade, unarmed versus the blade, low level and ground work against the blade, working with live blades, practice cutting and thrusting on various targets with live blades, examining the results of actual assaults and combats with the blade (both in my own law enforcement investigations and reviewing those of others for training purposes), being in actual confrontations against blade wielding assailants---being exposed to these methodologies, tools, and experiences while sparring, training, investigating (which is what the tax payers pay me to do), and critically evaluating what works for real in the environments that I work within have shown me that to be good against the blade, you have to train in blade methodologies. I have never seen anyone who was what I consider good when working against a knife wielding opponent who was not experienced in blade fighting methodologies. Aikido provides people with many tools and various benefits. However, Aikido methodologies against a knife attack are in no way equal to methodologies used by systems that are based on the knife. Both World Cup Rally drivers and Formula One drivers are phenomenal and highly skilled behind the wheel. If you took a champion driver from either discipline and had them compete in the type of race that they did not normally drive within, they are not normally going to be competitive in the new discipline without a lot of work and training. I have worked in the aikido/aikijujitsu discipline and in kali and silat systems, along with several other martial disciplines. In reality, when it comes to blade, we are not comparing rally to formula driving, and a better analogy would be basketball versus soccer. There are similarities, such as putting a ball in a goal and the need for aerobic conditioning and speed. However, the skill sets needed to be good are radically different.

KaliGman
04-23-2011, 09:42 AM
Decimate:
To destroy or kill a large part of (a group).
To inflict great destruction or damage on.
To reduce markedly in amount.
To select by lot and kill one in every ten of.
.

Decimate was originally a military term and referred to discipline within a Roman legion. It was a serious punishment in which ten percent of the legion was executed in punishment for the failure of the legion. It has been used in a martial context generally in reference to casualties inflicted upon an enemy force. To decimate an enemy force was to kill or incapacitate ten per cent of the force. The term is often confused with devastate.

Within the realm of knife fighting, I have not seen the term used. However, I can see it being applicable. How much do your arms weigh? Are they 10% of your body weight or more? The vast majority of Aikidoka that I have trained with, sparred with, or observed keep their arms relatively immobile, pushed out like antennae, when they are in their "ready" stance. Filipino martial arts practitioners do not do this. The arms are mostly in motion, because they are targets (one of the primary targets during the initial entry against the opponent) for the blade. I do not associate or train with Mr. Harden, but I have been told that he likes khukuris. I have a few of these knives, though, for big knives I generally prefer a fighting bowie. In recent tests of a pair of Cold Steel Bowies (a San Mai III Laredo Bowie and San Mai III TrailMaster) that I conducted for a magazine article, I performed multiple cuts per second with these big blades, severing huge pieces off of my cutting media. WIth a bit of training, this is not difficult to do at all, even while conducting footwork and using the off hand to deflect, distract, hit, parry, bridge, or trap. There is no warning. There is no windup. There is no telltale twitch of the shoulder muscle so prevalent when most people attempt to initiate a cut. There is simply a snap down and a snap up, and, in the blink of an eye, two arms are laying on the floor severed at or near the elbow. If the arms do not weigh ten percent of the total weight of your body, I am sure that other pieces can pretty much be severed at will until the desired weight is reached. Yes you can move and defend, but, against someone skilled in the use of the blade, the smart money is going to be betting on twitchy little bits of you laying on the floor rather than a spectacular disarm and throw of the "disgusting blade wielding thug."

KaliGman
04-23-2011, 09:56 AM
I'd come to you and Mickey for that little extra, :) unfortunately there is a bloomin' great pond to get over. Had you guys be not too far up the road I would be there asking for your instruction please......
I have seen the stuff you guys get up to, when I was in the Philippines in 1970 and I believe every word you say, sliced, diced and roasted......:hypno:
At present I carry a Tanbo, well actually it's an old jo that broke when I threw someone with it (it is well hidden at the back of my cab seat)
The cab has a metal and toughened glass barrier just like the older style London cab. It's there just in case some one is carrying, one never knows these days!!
I prefer to even up the odds...... The threat of knife crime is on the increase here so I take no chances. I always carry minimum cash for change, so if they want that I'll give it to them in more ways than one....;) As you know cabbies are at great risk and are very vulnerable. It's more likely that those carrying have no real skill, but that doesn't mean they could get lucky..... Why take chances....?
Preparation and awareness is safety also sizing up the odds quickly.
It just amazes me that so many cabbies do not take that precaution, when I hear about really bad assaults I think to myself, if you knew or felt they were iffy? Why the bloody hell take them? I always go by my gut instinct, and so far it has served me well.... No cabbie worth his salt is that naive, if they are, they should not be doing the job.
You guys take care out there....;)

Tony, the last time I was sent over the pond for work I ended up in Eastern Europe for a bit. My wife has an uncle over in the UK, and I have some guys in Lightning Scientific Arnis that I have talked with over the years and with whom I would love to meet up with and do some cross-training (one is a "copper" and really good stick fighting man). The wife and I were planning on going over to see her uncle awhile back, but, with four active kids (the oldest 11 years old), my work, and other issues, it is not happening for awhile. If I do get over for work (which is always a possibility), I will definitely look you up and we can train a bit. Since I never could get the hang of driving on the side of the road you Brits seem to favor, I'd need a good cabbie to drive me around anyway, that is if I did not want to drive a rental car into somebody's new Jag or Bentley:D

If you or Henry Ellis ever make it to Northeastern Ohio, look me up. I always have extra room in the house. It is a big rambling place filled with kids, dogs, and cats, (and a gun safe full of blades and other sundry devices).

Take care and keep training hard,

Jon

Tony Wagstaffe
04-23-2011, 10:04 AM
Decimate was originally a military term and referred to discipline within a Roman legion. It was a serious punishment in which ten percent of the legion was executed in punishment for the failure of the legion. It has been used in a martial context generally in reference to casualties inflicted upon an enemy force. To decimate an enemy force was to kill or incapacitate ten per cent of the force. The term is often confused with devastate.

Within the realm of knife fighting, I have not seen the term used. However, I can see it being applicable. How much do your arms weigh? Are they 10% of your body weight or more? The vast majority of Aikidoka that I have trained with, sparred with, or observed keep their arms relatively immobile, pushed out like antennae, when they are in their "ready" stance. Filipino martial arts practitioners do not do this. The arms are mostly in motion, because they are targets (one of the primary targets during the initial entry against the opponent) for the blade. I do not associate or train with Mr. Harden, but I have been told that he likes khukuris. I have a few of these knives, though, for big knives I generally prefer a fighting bowie. In recent tests of a pair of Cold Steel Bowies (a San Mai III Laredo Bowie and San Mai III TrailMaster) that I conducted for a magazine article, I performed multiple cuts per second with these big blades, severing huge pieces off of my cutting media. WIth a bit of training, this is not difficult to do at all, even while conducting footwork and using the off hand to deflect, distract, hit, parry, bridge, or trap. There is no warning. There is no windup. There is no telltale twitch of the shoulder muscle so prevalent when most people attempt to initiate a cut. There is simply a snap down and a snap up, and, in the blink of an eye, two arms are laying on the floor severed at or near the elbow. If the arms do not weigh ten percent of the total weight of your body, I am sure that other pieces can pretty much be severed at will until the desired weight is reached. Yes you can move and defend, but, against someone skilled in the use of the blade, the smart money is going to be betting on twitchy little bits of you laying on the floor rather than a spectacular disarm and throw of the "disgusting blade wielding thug."

Philippines Manila 1970: Royal Naval service.......Ashore in a not so friendly neighbourhood? Hence the fact that we took bloody great big steps in the opposite direction at very high speed, in fact so fast that ones feet were getting ahead of themselves, I can testify to that kind of skill even though it was a long time ago. I wouldn't even attempt the thought now....
One has to see it to believe it..... :hypno:

Thanks for that enlightening post Jon

Tony Wagstaffe
04-23-2011, 11:11 AM
Tony, the last time I was sent over the pond for work I ended up in Eastern Europe for a bit. My wife has an uncle over in the UK, and I have some guys in Lightning Scientific Arnis that I have talked with over the years and with whom I would love to meet up with and do some cross-training (one is a "copper" and really good stick fighting man). The wife and I were planning on going over to see her uncle awhile back, but, with four active kids (the oldest 11 years old), my work, and other issues, it is not happening for awhile. If I do get over for work (which is always a possibility), I will definitely look you up and we can train a bit. Since I never could get the hang of driving on the side of the road you Brits seem to favor, I'd need a good cabbie to drive me around anyway, that is if I did not want to drive a rental car into somebody's new Jag or Bentley:D

If you or Henry Ellis ever make it to Northeastern Ohio, look me up. I always have extra room in the house. It is a big rambling place filled with kids, dogs, and cats, (and a gun safe full of blades and other sundry devices).

Take care and keep training hard,

Jon

Now there's a possiblity? I'd love to become a skilled butcher as my uncle was one and quite good with his knives, not in the martial sense of course..... :D
I was wondering what I could do for a holiday next year? Know what Jon? I might just take you up on that..... I would love to see you guys in action and maybe get some more insight.... I'm doing Tokyo this year due to the kindness of a family's daughter, that we looked after for 4 years, so once I've recovered from that expense, I'll hopefully scrape together some dosh and do a pond hop. Month too long? Or is that hoping for too much? Honest I'm not cheeky.....:D
Don't mind helping out with the bills.....

ChrisHein
04-23-2011, 12:10 PM
I don't know about you but I have met many men who knew more than me. and yes...I trusted them and learned from them, sometimes in areas I did not believe were going to work, and here is a key point: I could not make what they were teaching me work in freestyle fighting (at first) so I simply HAD to trust them in order to move forward. At one point I quit because I could not make it work. I later went back. So the key was indeed, trust.
I'm glad I did because I saved myself from turning into a strength based grappler, and from three different men; from wasting my time in the wrong direction with weapons.


Doesn't sound much different then my story, however the ending is different.


Reinvention V stumbling in the dark trying to find better solutions.
This is an interesting dilema I see repeated by all of us; young and old in martial arts. We/ they are convinced that testing leads to a knowledge of what works.
Yes, this is how we learn.

Problem is what they are really testing is the limits of what they know and what they can make work. In many respects they are re-inventing the wheel while earnestly looking for solutions that many times have already been dicovered, codified, refined and vetted...through real combat in armed situations by many other men.


Everyone here studies a martial art. Which means that all of us are hoping to gain from the insight of others. However, we can't understand what they are doing, or getting at until we ourselves have those experiences. "Stumbling in the dark" is all any of us can really do, it part of learning. Using your own analogy with Dan Severn v.s. Gracie, Dan didn't know what he didn't know until he experienced it. This is what I was getting at with "trust", Dan Severn trusted that he knew most of what grappling was about until he experienced Gracie.

Now we could go on all day about this, but basically, it's up to the person to find for themselves what they want to do. The OP could have trusted what his Aikido teacher told him, and just believed that Aikido worked well at disarming. He did not, so he asked others. As one of the "others" who were generally asked, I said:
Aikido contains all of the tools you'll ever need to take something out of some ones hand. Ikkyo nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, rokyo, and kotegaeshi are the very foundation of disarms. They are universal to all weapon taking systems, although they have different names in different systems.

Now using them in a high pressure situation is another story. Aikido as a system provides the information you need, however you must train in high stress, unknown, freeform situations in order to learn to use them. This is however, true of any system.

Now back to you:

I propose that
a. They could have saved a shitload of time
b. They could have jumped light years ahead with new experimentation based on superior information leading to more sound conclusions from their very real future experimentation.
People do like to forge their own way through the weeds....
Instead of taking a well worn path
Oh well..


I think we both agree with "a", however I would add the caveat, even with the knowledge gained from others, you must experience it yourself.

Now with "b", that is only true if the information was good, we don't know if the information is good without experimentation. If you practice with bad information for many years, you won't get very far.

"people do like to forge their own path" this is your way as well as mine. You are blazing your own trails all the time. It's not the path I would take, but best of luck to you.

Well, I am quite sure from our discussions in the past, that our experiences in training and learning are from very different sources of information.


I think that might be a fair conclusion.


But, interestingly, I have not gleaned the same results and opinions as you, and yet oddly enough we are both going at it with and without armor right?
So how do you explain our different results and opinions if all testing is supposed to arrive at the same conclusions.... of what works?
Dan

I'm scratching my head over this one myself there Dan. Doesn't seem right does it...

stan baker
04-23-2011, 05:01 PM
Hi Chris
It seems a little strange
there must be some knowledge
you are not aware of.

stan

ChrisHein
04-23-2011, 08:57 PM
Ditto.

Aikibu
04-24-2011, 02:12 AM
Hey Chris,

James Williams Sensei is teaching a seminar in Fresno this May. I might see you there. Details Here.

http://www.fresnoaikijujutsu.com/

When it comes to Aiki-Jujutsu/Weapons he is one of the very best and it's well worth attending.

William Hazen

ChrisHein
04-24-2011, 02:58 AM
William,
I'd say there is a pretty fair chance of that. I didn't know about this seminar till right now. Kind of steep for one day, but it should be fun.

Tony Wagstaffe
04-24-2011, 07:37 AM
Tony, the last time I was sent over the pond for work I ended up in Eastern Europe for a bit. My wife has an uncle over in the UK, and I have some guys in Lightning Scientific Arnis that I have talked with over the years and with whom I would love to meet up with and do some cross-training (one is a "copper" and really good stick fighting man). The wife and I were planning on going over to see her uncle awhile back, but, with four active kids (the oldest 11 years old), my work, and other issues, it is not happening for awhile. If I do get over for work (which is always a possibility), I will definitely look you up and we can train a bit. Since I never could get the hang of driving on the side of the road you Brits seem to favor, I'd need a good cabbie to drive me around anyway, that is if I did not want to drive a rental car into somebody's new Jag or Bentley:D

If you or Henry Ellis ever make it to Northeastern Ohio, look me up. I always have extra room in the house. It is a big rambling place filled with kids, dogs, and cats, (and a gun safe full of blades and other sundry devices).

Take care and keep training hard,

Jon

A second thought Jon, cabs can be quite expensive especially at night for example it costs:
£3.80 FOR THE FIRST MILE AND £2.00 FOR EACH SUBSEQUENT MILE.!! Day time, After 23:00 hrs till 06:00 hrs add half again!!
So belting up the back of a Bentley , Roller or Jag could work out cheaper!! :D
As for driving on the left apparently the story goes that is how one came to pass other people on horse back, bearing in mind your meat cleaver was worn on the left..... Maybe that's why the Japanese also drive on the left too, many things in common....

You take care to ......

DH
04-24-2011, 11:16 AM
William,
I'd say there is a pretty fair chance of that. I didn't know about this seminar till right now. Kind of steep for one day, but it should be fun.
James can offer you the same thing that you can find with myself and others like me; koryu principles applied to modern combatives. James's are more in a military/LEO format but it's all good.
As I have said in the past-information is not all the same. There are some extremely valuable lessons to be learned from koryu. And for those that take them from kata to freestyle..they prove to be efficient and as deadly as their original intent.
It is unfortunate that you cannot readily see them in kata-as most arts hide their real intent. Its not an excuse or an apology, it is just often times quite surprising (when you gain access) to see what is behind what you publicly see to what the real purpose is/ was. For that reason the more experienced people will hesitate to comment, or at least heavily qualify their opinions of their public omote kata.
Cheers
Dan

DH
04-24-2011, 11:26 AM
I do not associate or train with Mr. Harden, but I have been told that he likes khukuris. I have a few of these knives, though,
John
I like Kurki for general all around cutting, camping and field work. NOT for a tactical weapon. For that I would prefer a clip point recurved bowie.

for big knives I generally prefer a fighting bowie. In recent tests of a pair of Cold Steel Bowies (a San Mai III Laredo Bowie and San Mai III TrailMaster) that I conducted for a magazine article,
I'm not a fan of factory produced blades. They are not capable of equaling a first class hand forged blade for many reasons. I knew and spoke with the consulting smith behind the cold steel effort and the "story behind the story" with the alleged proprietary steel and so on. It was as good an effort you can get from a factory knife-but it is still a factory produce blade.
My knives are hand forged and tempered (by me) with four different heat treat and tempered zones; Hard edge, slightly less in the point, spring tempered spine and ductile tang. Thus you can pry and puncture and yet hold and edge very well. Most any competent smith can produce the same product.
Cheers
Dan

Keith Larman
04-24-2011, 12:04 PM
On blades fwiw... Factory stuff has its limits to be sure. They also have their uses. They can be reasonably durable, tough and useful as tools.

But if you want a blade that performs above and beyond in all categories there really is no other choice than a properly made blade from a good smith. I have some very expensive kitchen knives that I use most of the time. And then there are the two knives I have made by Japanese swordsmiths. One I bought, the other a gift from the smith. Both require a bit of care (no stainless here), but both take a remarkable edge and hold that edge better than even the most expensive "fancy" knives I own.

There is a difference.

If I were worried about a blade that was going to be to protect my life I have no question I'd be makin' calls to some friends to have something made just for me...

That said I've got a piece that a friend of mine bought off a Gurkha guard who was working at Saddam Hussein's former residence soon after Baghdad fell. It looks like it was quickly made. But that thing is sharp, has heft, and would do some serious damage. That inside curve makes for serious nastiness...

ChrisHein
04-24-2011, 01:37 PM
James can offer you the same thing that you can find with myself and others like me; koryu principles applied to modern combatives. James's are more in a military/LEO format but it's all good.

Dan, I didn't know you were a teacher of Koryu. What Koryu do you teach?

KaliGman
04-24-2011, 05:50 PM
Now there's a possiblity? I'd love to become a skilled butcher as my uncle was one and quite good with his knives, not in the martial sense of course..... :D
I was wondering what I could do for a holiday next year? Know what Jon? I might just take you up on that..... I would love to see you guys in action and maybe get some more insight.... I'm doing Tokyo this year due to the kindness of a family's daughter, that we looked after for 4 years, so once I've recovered from that expense, I'll hopefully scrape together some dosh and do a pond hop. Month too long? Or is that hoping for too much? Honest I'm not cheeky.....:D
Don't mind helping out with the bills.....

Tony,

If you can make it across the pond, I am sure we can work something out. I suggest late spring or summer, as the snow gets a bit thick around here in just about all other seasons:p .

AllanF
04-25-2011, 04:33 AM
Dan, I didn't know you were a teacher of Koryu. What Koryu do you teach?

He did say "koryu principles"...

Tony Wagstaffe
04-25-2011, 06:01 AM
Tony,

If you can make it across the pond, I am sure we can work something out. I suggest late spring or summer, as the snow gets a bit thick around here in just about all other seasons:p .

I'll see what the missus se's she hates anything sharp and cringes when I sharpen up for the Sunday roast, testing to see with my thumb to slice a wee bit of skin, you know the trick something less than a paper cut.... She has this habit of letting them get all get blunt, I think she would like the trip but not the carving up ;) :D

Pat Togher
04-25-2011, 11:25 AM
I'd be interested in hearing more about the armored practice people have done. What venue was used, and what type of gear?

Thanks!
Pat

DH
04-26-2011, 09:37 AM
I'd be interested in hearing more about the armored practice people have done. What venue was used, and what type of gear?

Thanks!
Pat
Hello Pat
Howard knows these people and has watched practice and heard us talk about this other training.
To answer your question;
Kendo bogu (although elbow and knee pads will help)
Weapons: knife, stick, twin sticks, shinai, and bokuto
Even with armor you will still get; broken bones, knockouts, knock downs, major and minor bruising and hard to describe; long, skin-fold impact cuts. We had one fellow with what looked like a razor cut across his forehead but it was done with a wooden tanto (no helmut that day).
What we have tracked is that the bruising tends to lesson over time and even lower level people start to "turn on" and think through the aggression and pain to gain a domineering and controlling mindset that starts to control the action through the refinement of retained relaxation, delivery of power with no wind-up, retained mental focus and control of adreline rush without stress induced loss, and an accelerated sense of timing and positioning.
If you check, I am sure you will find others that do similar work, no doubt from different approaches and their own blending of various principles.
Cheers
Dan

Pat Togher
04-27-2011, 02:58 PM
Very cool!
Thanks Dan.

Pat

Hello Pat
Howard knows these people and has watched practice and heard us talk about this other training.
To answer your question;
Kendo bogu (although elbow and knee pads will help)
Weapons: knife, stick, twin sticks, shinai, and bokuto
Even with armor you will still get; broken bones, knockouts, knock downs, major and minor bruising and hard to describe; long, skin-fold impact cuts. We had one fellow with what looked like a razor cut across his forehead but it was done with a wooden tanto (no helmut that day).
What we have tracked is that the bruising tends to lesson over time and even lower level people start to "turn on" and think through the aggression and pain to gain a domineering and controlling mindset that starts to control the action through the refinement of retained relaxation, delivery of power with no wind-up, retained mental focus and control of adreline rush without stress induced loss, and an accelerated sense of timing and positioning.
If you check, I am sure you will find others that do similar work, no doubt from different approaches and their own blending of various principles.
Cheers
Dan

George S. Ledyard
04-28-2011, 03:39 AM
On blades fwiw... Factory stuff has its limits to be sure. They also have their uses. They can be reasonably durable, tough and useful as tools.

But if you want a blade that performs above and beyond in all categories there really is no other choice than a properly made blade from a good smith. I have some very expensive kitchen knives that I use most of the time. And then there are the two knives I have made by Japanese swordsmiths. One I bought, the other a gift from the smith. Both require a bit of care (no stainless here), but both take a remarkable edge and hold that edge better than even the most expensive "fancy" knives I own.

There is a difference.

If I were worried about a blade that was going to be to protect my life I have no question I'd be makin' calls to some friends to have something made just for me...

That said I've got a piece that a friend of mine bought off a Gurkha guard who was working at Saddam Hussein's former residence soon after Baghdad fell. It looks like it was quickly made. But that thing is sharp, has heft, and would do some serious damage. That inside curve makes for serious nastiness...

A lot of the military folks who routinely work overseas interfacing with foreign troops will not carry expensive knives. If you cross borders, they often end up in the possession of some customs official. Many developing countries have traditions in which you are obligated to give something to someone who overtly admires it. So guys got in the habit of leaving their really expensive Randalls at home and carrying solid quality benchmade knives that didn't make them cry if they ended up with new ownership.

CSFurious
05-03-2011, 03:07 PM
the best training for knife fighting/disarmament is the Fillipino martial arts

most Aikido dojos are not going to have instructors who have ever fought with knives (even just sparring with wooden or dull blades) which is important for purposes of disarming

also, the stylistic aikido attacks are not what a knife attacker would use, i.e., Kali uses a 1-10 (pattern) using the centerline as the guide which is more realistic then a "yoko-menuchi", etc.

anyway all systems are artificial and enlightened, progressive Aikido instructors may be able to assist you in knife defense

check out the Dog Brothers videos, they are some cool dudes

Eric Joyce
05-03-2011, 03:46 PM
Kali uses a 1-10 (pattern) using the centerline as the guide which is more realistic then a "yoko-menuchi", etc.

Hi Chris,

By 1-10 pattern do you mean they are basically cutting the shape of a 1, 2, 3, etc.? I assume that is what you meant. I never heard of it before.

Michael Varin
05-04-2011, 02:46 AM
the best training for knife fighting/disarmament is the Fillipino martial arts

most Aikido dojos are not going to have instructors who have ever fought with knives (even just sparring with wooden or dull blades) which is important for purposes of disarming

also, the stylistic aikido attacks are not what a knife attacker would use, i.e., Kali uses a 1-10 (pattern) using the centerline as the guide which is more realistic then a "yoko-menuchi", etc.



What are you saying?

Do you think "most" FMA instructors have been in a knife fight?

Do you think the attacks in FMA are not "stylistic"?

Do you think the concept of centerline doesn't play a HUGE role in aikido?

I think it is well past time that we start separating training methodologies from the content of an art.

ChrisHein
05-04-2011, 07:51 PM
What are you saying?

Do you think "most" FMA instructors have been in a knife fight?

Do you think the attacks in FMA are not "stylistic"?

Do you think the concept of centerline doesn't play a HUGE role in aikido?

I think it is well past time that we start separating training methodologies from the content of an art.

For our own organization of thought, it is high time we are clear about what we want to know.

Technical syllabus is one thing, I don't believe FMA have anything "over" Aikido in this area.

Training methodologies are another thing. This would involve sparring, resistance drills etc. Some FMA have a major advantage here over most Aikido. The dog brothers are a good example of this.

Experience is another thing. People who have been in real life and death knife fights. This kind of experience is fleeting. First there are few people who have been in a life and death struggle over a knife. Second, most people who have didn't gather that much information from the exchange. That is to say, the one or two encounters didn't give them huge amounts of (non-personal) information over people who haven't been in a knife fight.

When training with an experienced person, it's important to remember they can only give you some insights, they cannot give you their experience. This can be seen time and again in sport martial arts. The best competitors don't necessarily make good teachers, and will often have a stable of students who are not great competitors.

Knife fighting is extremely dangerous, so very few would choose, or have the opportunity to be in many life and death exchanges. With the few that have, there is no guarantee that they can pass along any information that will help you.

Sparring, is as close as most of us will ever get (it's also as close as we want to get). Sparring can tell us what technical syllabus work well in sparring. But it's important to remember that sparring is not knife fighting.

ryujin
05-10-2011, 02:21 PM
It depends on who is holding the knife.

And who is disarming him. :D

KaliGman
05-11-2011, 09:00 PM
For our own organization of thought, it is high time we are clear about what we want to know.

Technical syllabus is one thing, I don't believe FMA have anything "over" Aikido in this area.

Training methodologies are another thing. This would involve sparring, resistance drills etc. Some FMA have a major advantage here over most Aikido. The dog brothers are a good example of this.

Experience is another thing. People who have been in real life and death knife fights. This kind of experience is fleeting. First there are few people who have been in a life and death struggle over a knife. Second, most people who have didn't gather that much information from the exchange. That is to say, the one or two encounters didn't give them huge amounts of (non-personal) information over people who haven't been in a knife fight.

When training with an experienced person, it's important to remember they can only give you some insights, they cannot give you their experience. This can be seen time and again in sport martial arts. The best competitors don't necessarily make good teachers, and will often have a stable of students who are not great competitors.

Knife fighting is extremely dangerous, so very few would choose, or have the opportunity to be in many life and death exchanges. With the few that have, there is no guarantee that they can pass along any information that will help you.

Sparring, is as close as most of us will ever get (it's also as close as we want to get). Sparring can tell us what technical syllabus work well in sparring. But it's important to remember that sparring is not knife fighting.

Well, you know what they say about opinions. Personally, having studied aikijujitsu and aikido methodology as well as FMA, I would say that the technical syllabus of blade oriented arts (there are several Filipino Martial Arts that do not use the blade much if at all), is far superior. If I am looking to get the best knife and unarmed against the knife training I would seek a specialist, just as when I want someone to fix the engine on my car I go to an auto mechanic rather than a gunsmith.

Sparring is very good. However, to get really good unarmed against the knife, you have to spar against someone who is good with a knife. If you can't do progressive indirect attacks where you cut or thrust on one line and change to another line instantly, can't cut and thrust multiple times per second and on various lines of attack, can't attack with fluid and varied combinations, and can't do all this without telegraphing your moves, then you are a poor knife sparring partner.

As for instructors, I have found, over years of training in various disciplines, to include special tactics and firearms, that the absolute best instructors had real world experience and dojo/sparring/martial training/range training experience.

Your mileage may vary. Additionally, and somewhat off topic, I have seen some of your videos and, based on the body mechanics I have seen, you seem to be one of the more "martially minded" Aikido practitioners posting here. I disagree with you a bit on knife training, but applaud your efforts to find a good "combat system" within your Aikido.

KaliGman
05-11-2011, 09:14 PM
Hi Chris,

By 1-10 pattern do you mean they are basically cutting the shape of a 1, 2, 3, etc.? I assume that is what you meant. I never heard of it before.

You probably never heard of it because it is incorrect. Kali/excrima/arnis systems are not all based around a 10 count pattern. Some are based around 7 angles, some 8, some 12, etc. One of the keys of most systems is to study the possible ways an opponent can bend an arm and attack you with a knife (the lines or angles of possible attack). Different attacks can come from different angles. Some systems emphasize various drills with multiple attacks from the same angle, some vary the angle. Sometimes the cutting methodology is a hit and retract (a hacking cut) and sometimes it is a cut or slash through. Patterns are learned to teach principle and body mechanics. When you fight, you had better be free form and non-repetitive or your pattern will be seen, intercepted, interrupted, and destroyed.

For a better idea of an FMA perspective concerning angles of attack, consider the slash through pattern in my own system, Albo Kali Silat. There are seven cuts, forming an asterisk type pattern, and then a thrust to the center to dot the asterisk. This is a beginning drill/pattern. It gets a lot more complicated from there.

I hoped this helped you rather than confused you. If you want more information on this, PM me or email me so we don't hijack this thread, and I'll try to explain things a bit more clearly (and point you to a couple of online resources that might help you out).

jester
05-18-2011, 10:38 AM
Should I be worried that aikido in general is not effective for unarmed taking away tanto, or believe in aikido and that it is powerful enough to take away tanto safely, just I haven't seen it yet?


It all comes down to the person. Anyone with a knife is dangerous, even a young kid. Disarming a trained attacker with a knife would be almost impossible without getting cut.

Best thing to do is avoid the situation. Aikido training with knives teaches principals but I personally don't think they are meant for actual knife disarming.

I know everyone has an opinion on this but I can almost guarantee that if I had a knife and you tried to take disarm me, you will get cut no matter what Aikido rank or style you are.

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graham christian
05-18-2011, 11:31 AM
It all comes down to the person. Anyone with a knife is dangerous, even a young kid. Disarming a trained attacker with a knife would be almost impossible without getting cut.

Best thing to do is avoid the situation. Aikido training with knives teaches principals but I personally don't think they are meant for actual knife disarming.

I know everyone has an opinion on this but I can almost guarantee that if I had a knife and you tried to take disarm me, you will get cut no matter what Aikido rank or style you are.

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Hi Tim.
May I add something here as I agree it does all come down to the person concerned.

The point I think which is missed is that when talking about weapons vs. unarmed is the fact that the game has changed.

Now I think that those who use weapons are as guilty as those who don't in as much as reality goes. For instance is it REAL to the person with a knife that he has now given the right to the other person to break his neck or severely damage him.

The whole attitude here seems to be 'one has a weapon and the other must try to disarm'

That's good practice but not real in the sense that it doesn't fit life circumstances. When someone in life brings out a weapon you have now entered a new game the solution of which is not fighting but is budo. Thus the reality of budo comes into play which is nothing to do with fighting.

Good Aikido teaches you this. How many weapons people understand this? How many weapons people understand that they are putting their own life in danger when they use a weapon?

Samurai learned this lesson I suspect. Hence never to draw the sword unless you really are going to use it.

I would say that a great percentage of people who threaten with knives or even guns are relying completely on fear and the apparent sense of power it gives them over an unarmed opponent. Carried away by what they could do TO the opponent yet as in life the first to complain if the opponent then does something to them.

Thus I put it to you that if your weapons training is to do with budo
then it is indeed a fine art. If on the other hand a person learns it for other reasons it is merely a path to delusion and the way of the coward.

What do you think?

Regards.G.

jester
05-18-2011, 02:00 PM
I would say that a great percentage of people who threaten with knives or even guns are relying completely on fear and the apparent sense of power it gives them over an unarmed opponent.

This could be true, I don't know the stats but my point being that all things being equal (which we can only assume since this is hypothetical), the knife will win out. It's rock paper scissors at this point.

These type of questions can never be answered though. All situations are different, all attacks are different, all attackers are different. Is the sun in your eyes? Were you sneezing at the moment of attack? Is there a slippery surface? Is the guy on PCP? Were you on PCP?

I don't think the person being attacked has to disarm the attacker but he has to control the knife or render it useless somehow.

The original question wondered if Aikido is an effective art for disarming an opponent with a knife. I still say no. Running is the best defense for a knife. :)

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Eric Joyce
05-18-2011, 05:48 PM
If you really want to amp up your training and test those aikido prinicples out, I highly recommend using a Shock Knife:

http://www.shocknife.com/

I use them in my Krav Maga training. A very humbling tool I must say but fun to test yourself.

I also agree with Tim, run if you can. Don't play hero.

graham christian
05-18-2011, 09:49 PM
This could be true, I don't know the stats but my point being that all things being equal (which we can only assume since this is hypothetical), the knife will win out. It's rock paper scissors at this point.

These type of questions can never be answered though. All situations are different, all attacks are different, all attackers are different. Is the sun in your eyes? Were you sneezing at the moment of attack? Is there a slippery surface? Is the guy on PCP? Were you on PCP?

I don't think the person being attacked has to disarm the attacker but he has to control the knife or render it useless somehow.

The original question wondered if Aikido is an effective art for disarming an opponent with a knife. I still say no. Running is the best defense for a knife. :)

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Tim. Thanks for the response. Check out that saying you used above though......'All things being equal.......rock, scissors paper etc. This is actually 'all things being NOT equal.

This is precisely my point. Accepting you are dealing with a not equal situation. So talking about these matters they need to be put in the right category which is a category of not equal. That's the reality to start from. That's the perspective needed.

From that perspective a person can see clearly the simplicity of the scene. If someone draws a knife (not equal) and you want to play that game of not equal then obviously you draw out a bigger knife. Then he draws out a sword. Then you draw out a gun.

That's the madness involved in weapons use to be superior to the opponent. Just crazyness in action and is nothing to do with 'all things being equal' Its all to do with a mindset called being superior and dominant.

What that mindset fails to realize is where it leads to.

It is good sense to tell someone to run from a knife as being unarmed and probably therefore incapable of defeating it then that would apparently be the best course of action.

However, that doesn't mean don't train armed verses unarmed for that is an important part of Aikido where much can be learned. when someone find how to move and face a weapon and can do it with ease then and only then can you say it is possible and in fact for that person quite easy.

Is the person holding the weapon quite prepared to be damaged by the opponent? For he is bringing unfairness into the equasion and is quite willing to harm the opponent.(Be it using a tanto or bokken or whatever) I say this because people keep using the mantra of 'real' Well that works both ways. Real would mean giving the person with the tanto a black eye or bruised face or damaged shoulder for he is quite willing if being'real' to jab you hard and give you bruising.

Thus we see 'real' is not very real at all for if you have to damage each other then no one would be fit for the battlefield.

Training is training and merely a representation to build up skills and ability so that if an in life situation arises you automatically do without thinking.

Aikido actually teaches you not to run. It teaches how to move. How to move against an attack without discrimination as to whether the person has a weapon or not, is a boxer or a sumo or whatever.

If a person doesn't believe this then they doubt Aikido. Aikido would put you behind the person with the knife. So Aikido isn't the problem for Aikido works. We are the problem until we can see this and do it.

This is my personal view and experience. It is not a put down of you or anyone. It is merely a viewpoint I offer as my reality.

Thanks for listening.

Regards.G.

jester
05-19-2011, 08:30 AM
Tim. Thanks for the response. Check out that saying you used above though......'All things being equal.......rock, scissors paper etc. This is actually 'all things being NOT equal.

Hey Graham, I think you misinterpreted my meaning. All things being equal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceteris_paribus) means that you have the same exact skills before the knife is added.

It is after the knife where Rock, Paper, Scissors comes into play.

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the reply!

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Eric, that knife looks very cool! How potent is the shock? Do you have to press a button or anything or is it on all the time??


Tim

Eric Joyce
05-19-2011, 10:24 AM
Hey Graham, I think you misinterpreted my meaning. All things being equal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceteris_paribus) means that you have the same exact skills before the knife is added.

It is after the knife where Rock, Paper, Scissors comes into play.

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the reply!

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Eric, that knife looks very cool! How potent is the shock? Do you have to press a button or anything or is it on all the time??

Tim

Hey Tim,

Yes they are cool. Pricey as well but a fantastic training tool that provides immediate feedback. The electricity is controlled by an activator button on the handle. When I stab or slice, I depress the button and bingo...voltage city. It uses a 9 volt battery I believe. Just make sure to use them carefully. Protective goggles are highly recommended. Just read the instructions carefully to understand how it works and how it feels. The knife has adjustable settings (low, med, high). The highest setting can be painful (like a bee sting) and it does stimulate you through clothing. Also, the shock knife makes a very odd noise that can definitely add to the adrenaline of the situation :D