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ctoor
09-14-2010, 04:49 PM
I've been doing aikido since last year, and I am still having trouble with this technique. Uke comes in with a tsuki and I am supposed to step back and catch his wrist, turn it over, then walk behind him for a rotational irimi nage.

I can't seem to find any videos on Google or YT of anyone doing this technique. But, I can find a lot of videos of nage deflecting the tsuki and entering without stepping back. My teacher says to just do it and figure it out later.

Will this technique get easier to do? Is this good irimi nage practice if I am stepping back?

Thank you for your help!

mathewjgano
09-14-2010, 06:45 PM
I've been doing aikido since last year, and I am still having trouble with this technique. Uke comes in with a tsuki and I am supposed to step back and catch his wrist, turn it over, then walk behind him for a rotational irimi nage.
Which hand is grasping which and which way are you turning it over?

WilliB
09-14-2010, 07:00 PM
I've been doing aikido since last year, and I am still having trouble with this technique. Uke comes in with a tsuki and I am supposed to step back and catch his wrist, turn it over, then walk behind him for a rotational irimi nage.

I can't seem to find any videos on Google or YT of anyone doing this technique. But, I can find a lot of videos of nage deflecting the tsuki and entering without stepping back. My teacher says to just do it and figure it out later.

Will this technique get easier to do? Is this good irimi nage practice if I am stepping back?

Thank you for your help!

Come again? What is this business about "stepping back"? By definition, an irimi movement is stepping in, not back. This is not karate point sparring, where you hop back and forth...

And I donīt understand this wrist turning either. Do you have u-tube video to show what you mean?

ctoor
09-14-2010, 08:02 PM
Hi, I'll try to describe it:

Nage and uke are both in ai hammi and nage has his left foot forward to start. Uke takes a step forward to tsuki with his back hand. Nage takes a step back and with his right hand captures the punch of uke like a kote gaeshi grip. At this point they are both in aihanmi again.

Nage then twists uke's hand outward (to the right) and steps in with his back leg (left leg). He then shuffles more behind uke, lets go of his wrist, and continues the irimi nage like shomenuchi iriminage with tenkan.

That is the one our teacher and assistant teachers are making us do again and again, but I cannot find any videos to help us get this right. Any ideas?

odudog
09-14-2010, 08:45 PM
Do the technique very slow, over and over again. It will take time to get the body mechanics ingrained so just be patient.

From your description, after you grab uke's hand, I would use your hips to swing your right hand over to the right. This should help get uke off balance by twisting his/her body, protect you from a left punch, and get uke's right hand out of the way so that you have room to now safely step into the rear of uke with your left foot. Keep the momentum going as you slip into tenkan. You can either let go of uke's right hand or keep holding it until it is time to throw with the typical iriminage arm, personal choice.

Some techniques you will never find on video or ever have a name for. They are personal techniques of the Sensei. I have a new dvd of Yamada Sensei of the USAF and he stated the fact that some of the techniques he will show have no name and are his personal techniques. Something he made up and likes to do.

chillzATL
09-14-2010, 09:57 PM
something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc2gwrqIhWM

WilliB
09-14-2010, 11:10 PM
Hi, I'll try to describe it:

Nage and uke are both in ai hammi and nage has his left foot forward to start. Uke takes a step forward to tsuki with his back hand. Nage takes a step back and with his right hand captures the punch of uke like a kote gaeshi grip. At this point they are both in aihanmi again.

At this point you lost me already. Kotegaeshi? What you describe would be a nikkyo grip. Unless your joints are all reversed :-)

ctoor
09-14-2010, 11:24 PM
Jason: that was close, except we have to go straight back, not off nicely to the side like the fellows in the video do. Also, ours is not that dynamic - straight back, then straight in and behind (while dodging uke's elbow).

I was noticing the comments on the YT thread. Is this no longer practiced by Aikikai? Thanks.

ctoor
09-14-2010, 11:35 PM
Will: the grip feels like kote gaeshi grip, but you are right that the exact grip would lead to nikkyo in a different technique.

tim evans
09-15-2010, 12:48 AM
Will: the grip feels like kote gaeshi grip, but you are right that the exact grip would lead to nikkyo in a different technique.

Are you stepping back at a 45 degree angle (tenshin) with a circular block iirimi in cutting down and tenkan for irriminage? This is a 4th kyu test technique in the usaf.

ctoor
09-15-2010, 02:42 AM
Hi Tim. Well, we step straight back in a straight line and try to catch that striking hand as we step back. It isn't like tenshin or an omote parry, for example - straight back. If we move 45 degrees to the inside, then I don't think we can do ura, and if we move 45 degrees to the outside then it is very hard to catch the tsuki anymore.

We are not allowed to step to the side - it must be straight back, capture, then cover a large distance to enter deep behind for irimi nage.

Do you guys have any advice for grabbing incoming tsuki fists?

giriasis
09-15-2010, 02:44 AM
He is doing iriminage... not an irimi opening. Iriminage does not necessary dictate and "irimi" opening. Iriminage can be done from many openings out of tsuki. It is a little more challenging from a tenshin opening, which is what he is describing. The "step back" is called tenshin (not techin). It is step back on the diagonal allowing the nage to get off the line of the attack.

So....Make sure you are not stepping straight back. You should be on a slight diagonal.

Also, you should not be actually grabbing for uke's hand. As you step back on the diagonal and getting yourself off the line of attack, you forward hand should sort of cut down of top of uke's forearm and then slide down to his wrist.

So if you started with your left foot forward, you should now be right foot forward.

At this point you start to turn uke's wrist over using a nikkyo type grip. Ukes thumb should go down towards the ground and back up, not over and then down. When you have uke's wrist locked, you step through with the rear foot while also raising up uke's arm as if you were doing ikkyo exercise. As you step in, you can begin to release the grip, let you hand slide down back towards uke's elbow and still control uke's elbow as you execute the iriminage through.

Points to consider, watch your maai or distance. Make sure uke would actually strike you if you did not move. Make sure uke is not tracking you as you step back off the line of attack (insincere uke's will do this). When doing this tenshin opening, it is vital that you do not step back to far away from the uke. If you are reaching forward to much you are to far away. (also if you are too close you will feel bunched up in your arms.) Make sure you do not step straight back as you are still on the uke's line of attack.

Also, as you are drawing your hand down ukes arm to grab the wrist try to draw uke into your center. You will sortof be bringing ukes strike forward on off center as you are stepping back slightly on a diagonal. As this point Uke should be off balance.

Finally, your motion for all of this should start and end with your center.

And, finally, fianally, play with it some more and ask your sensei or senior student. As your partner what he feels or doesn't feel. Be quizzical to figure out how it works.

giriasis
09-15-2010, 02:49 AM
Charles, I just caught your post that you only step straight back. I bet you do step off the line some or get off the line somehow. It could just be the hips. But watch your sensei's feet first and then watch his hips. The secret is always in the hips. Watch your distance and your timing.

David Yap
09-15-2010, 02:50 AM
Hi, I'll try to describe it:

Nage and uke are both in ai hammi and nage has his left foot forward to start. Uke takes a step forward to tsuki with his back hand. Nage takes a step back and with his right hand captures the punch of uke like a kote gaeshi grip. At this point they are both in aihanmi again.

Nage then twists uke's hand outward (to the right) and steps in with his back leg (left leg). He then shuffles more behind uke, lets go of his wrist, and continues the irimi nage like shomenuchi iriminage with tenkan.

That is the one our teacher and assistant teachers are making us do again and again, but I cannot find any videos to help us get this right. Any ideas?

Charles,

The initial movements are similar to Tzuki Ikkyo Ura. Once you move into the Uke's side, turn your hips and extend your arm that is holding the Uke's wrist downwards causing Uke to be off-balanced - shifting his weight to his front foot. Once Uke is off-balanced, place your free hand on the side of his neck (this is the center, do not pull or push his neck), release his wrist and use the free hand to execute irimi-nage by stepping forward towards Uke's back foot.

Hope this will help.

David Y

giriasis
09-15-2010, 02:57 AM
Okay...well, this is a 4th kyu test...but at 5:13 is Tsuki Iriminage. The first one is with an irimi opening, the second one is with a tenkan. The third is tsuki iriminage when you step straightback and get caught in the line of the attack. The fourth, is performed a little better where he gets slightly of the line of attack, although he's still a little to close. (I recorded this video by the way.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldhZ0pBZkh4 Is this what you are talking about? This is what I think you are talking about.

ctoor
09-15-2010, 03:19 AM
Anne Marie: I appreciate your step-by-step instructions. They are clear. With that in mind, I took David's advice and looked for tsuki ikkyo ura videos and I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdApsXfXvzU

The nage in this clip moves straight back as my teacher and seniors want me to move, then enters and proceeds to do ikkyo ura. I don't feel safe when I practice this (as irimi nage) in class but I am told to not ask questions, just to do it. Okay.

Anne Marie: From what you described (move off at 45 degrees (inside?)) I feel comfortable moving into ikkyo omote because I am in front still, but the distance seems huge to get all the way around and behind for ura irimi nage.

If I move straight back there is less distance to make up for, but feel unsafe b/c uke can ram or kick.

Tim: Is there a clip of the USAF 4th kyu tsuki irimi nage you mentioned online (with the step back hand grab)? All I can find is many, many clips of tsuki irimi nage where nage enters right away, never stepping back.

Thanks for the help everyone!

ctoor
09-15-2010, 03:40 AM
I found a video of Yamada Sensei showing 4th kyu techniques. At [2:50] he shows two tsuki irimi nage. The second one looks close to the one I think Anne Marie was describing, which is nice. I noticed that Yamada Sensei does not grab the tsuki wrist at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--S-w3L-rRs

Anne Marie: Thank you for the video post - that nagae's third tsuki irimi looks like how you described, and with no wrist grab... kind of along the lines of how Yamada Sensei shows it. I like it.

I'm starting to think that for this version it is better to do tenshin and cut/parry at the elbow and to not capture the wrist as the initial movement. This is neat to get advice from all of you.

David Yap
09-15-2010, 03:42 AM
Do you guys have any advice for grabbing incoming tsuki fists?

Charles,

You cannot grab an incoming tzuki fist. First you need to deflect the punch with an open hand. Keeping that hand close to Uke's fist, then only you can grab his wrist. My advice is to time your stepping back with Uke's punch/step. If you move before he does, you become a moving target and he may get you when you are not rooted, and If you move faster than the strike, you may create an opening for the Uke to re-direct the strike.

If you move directly backward in a straight line as a karate-ka would do, then you should do what a karate-ka would do after the block, i.e. an uraken (back fist to the face). But, of course, we do not actually contact in aikido; it is just a feint to distract him or cause him to raise his other arm (which by the way is not away on vacation as most people would assume :D ).

How you step backwards depend on your kamae. Nobody will tzuki/punch you for the sake of punching. You initiate that by offering an opening, sort of like inviting him to punch. If you in a hanmi kamae with your back foot behind your front, one hand in front at shoulder level and the other in front of your abdomen leaving little opening for a punch then, martially/logically, it is very unlikely that I will step forward to punch you. Every attack creates an opening that awaits a response and vice versa ;) .

The rest you can figure it out.

Happy training

David Y

PS Do not move 45 degree backward. You are not exactly off the line of attack. In fact you are still in line of attack from the other arm. The direction should be between 5-6 O'clock. Don't take my words, work it out with an Uke.

grondahl
09-15-2010, 05:54 AM
You cant grab a punch. Itīs as simple as that.
What you can do is to make contact and affect the balance of uke. Itīs very important to move backward with the intention still directed forward, you dont want to have the feeling of escaping or fleeing. While moving backwards, cut down (in your own center) along the arm of uke. The cutting motion goes from the shoulder to the wrist and starts making contact along the biceps. Drop your hips during the cut and transfer the drop to the arm of uke. If this is done successfully you have compromised the balance of uke and created a small opening.
Remember to be quite relaxed in your arm during the cut and to move backwards in a small angle.

phitruong
09-15-2010, 08:14 AM
grab punch, bad idea. bad habit. at least from my point of view. folks who know how to punch don't just leave it out there. they will draw back and throw another or something else. personally, i prefer to step in and deflect/connect uke's elbow so that i am in the position to throw a punch into uke's ribs or kidney or behind the ear. once i am there, iriminage is a foregone conclusion. that's just me being paranoid about the other person ability to fight.

Basia Halliop
09-15-2010, 09:41 AM
Are you sure they literally want you to step _straight_ back? It's not that you're doing something like stepping _too far_ off to the side and getting into the range of uke's other hand, and are being corrected for that? Certainly if you step too far off to the side that can easily cause problems. But it would be very unusual in the Aikido I've seen and been taught, to intentionally stay in the direct line of an attack...

Personally I have also always been taught not to try to grab a moving punch -- deflect/block first, then switch to the grab.

The version of this entry that I know involves stepping back and off the line slightly to the inside while slapping uke's fist down with the ai-hanmi hand, quickly grasp with gyaku-hanmi hand so ai-hanmi hand is free for an atemi to the face, then switch back to ai-hanmi hand and do something kind of like an ikkyo while entering on the outside to get to a position where you can do iriminage. (sounds like a lot of hand changing, but it really isn't once it becomes a reflex)

Or there's also the tenshin more like the one Yamada Sensei is doing in the video posted -- with a cutting kind of block similar to how you might do it if it were yokomenuchi... bringing uke a bit in front of you with the cut and then sliding more deeply behind for the iriminage.

Of course styles vary from dojo to dojo, though.

On our 4th kyu test we don't usually get asked for the tenshin entry from tsuki, though... just the tenkai (for omote) and tenkan (for ura).

Basia Halliop
09-15-2010, 09:55 AM
Anne Marie: I appreciate your step-by-step instructions. They are clear. With that in mind, I took David's advice and looked for tsuki ikkyo ura videos and I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdApsXfXvzU

The nage in this clip moves straight back as my teacher and seniors want me to move, then enters and proceeds to do ikkyo ura. I don't feel safe when I practice this (as irimi nage) in class but I am told to not ask questions, just to do it. Okay.

I would not describe what he's doing as stepping straight back -- his orientation changes as he steps back so his torso is no longer in the path of the strike - it's particularly clear at 0:40 seconds, 0:50 seconds... He's moving to the side, but no more than he has to, and also part of the getting off the line of attack is accomplished just by hip rotation. If this is what you mean when you say 'stepping straight back' then that may be the source of much of the confusion people are having in this conversation.

giriasis
09-15-2010, 10:27 AM
//Anne Marie: I appreciate your step-by-step instructions. They are clear. With that in mind, I took David's advice and looked for tsuki ikkyo ura videos and I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdApsXfXvzU //

The video is what I was trying to describe. The video I provided (which is the USAF 4th kyu test requirements), the nage did not properly lift the arm up across of him in the front, yet he also did not do a 45 degree rotational turn. Tenshin is not necessarily a big 45 degree rotational turn. It is step back on a slight diagonal. If you take a 45 degree step then you will to far away. In my video, he is demonstrating 3 variations to Tsuki Iriminage. The third and fourth ones are his best attempts with a tenshin opening. In the third one, he stepped straight back, and look what happened - he got hit.

In the video you provided, the nage is not stepping exactly straight back, either. Watch his legs and hips. He is stepping back slightly off the line of the attack and rotating his hips to continue to be off the line of attack and to draw uke off-balance. If you step exactly straight back you will get hit by uke's tsuki. Watch the foot movement and the hip rotation, nage is taking is off the line of the attack.

Also notice in the video regarding the "grab", he is not literally grabbing uke's punch in midair. He glances his hand down uke's forearm and lets his hand slide down to uke's wrist. You can not grab a punch. If uke had a knife, you could end up grabbing his blade.

giriasis
09-15-2010, 10:34 AM
I found a video of Yamada Sensei showing 4th kyu techniques. At [2:50] he shows two tsuki irimi nage. The second one looks close to the one I think Anne Marie was describing, which is nice. I noticed that Yamada Sensei does not grab the tsuki wrist at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--S-w3L-rRs

Anne Marie: Thank you for the video post - that nagae's third tsuki irimi looks like how you described, and with no wrist grab... kind of along the lines of how Yamada Sensei shows it. I like it.

I'm starting to think that for this version it is better to do tenshin and cut/parry at the elbow and to not capture the wrist as the initial movement. This is neat to get advice from all of you.

Yes, that is similar to what I'm describing. However, the empasis is on the bigger and more dynamic movement. You can also raise the arm up in nikkyo/ikkyo motion, enter like you are doing ikkyo ura, but continue with the iriminage technique. But, I think the video that Charles posted is what he is looking to do. The concepts/principles are the same. One emphasizes larger more dynamic circular movement, the other empahsizes smaller less-dynamic circular movement.

C. David Henderson
09-15-2010, 10:34 AM
Lots of good advice here, particularly about the angle of the "entry" and the difference between "catching" uke's arm and making connection -- points that will prove themselves equally important in a whole variety of techinques.

tim evans
09-15-2010, 10:41 AM
I purchased the dvd,s from the dojo but I,M told it,s on youtube under aikido 4th kyu test

Rob Watson
09-15-2010, 01:26 PM
I noticed that Yamada Sensei does not grab the tsuki wrist at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--S-w3L-rRs

Also notice in the video regarding the "grab", he is not literally grabbing uke's punch in midair. He glances his hand down uke's forearm and lets his hand slide down to uke's wrist.

And THEN grab! Hard to see but look closely and it is clearly grabbed after the blend/deflection and slide down the forearm onto the wrist. The web between the thumb and index finger slips right into place and a bit of pressure actually can make the fingers flex closed a bit ... I don't think one wants this to happen and when a bit more kokyu is present the angle is 'wrong' for the grab 'reflex' but is much better for the control and maintenence of kuzushi. I always thought one kind of led the ukes arm out and up and around to start the throw.

Interesting to play around with when uke strikes and pulls back to 'chamber' another strike. The blend/deflect then grab portion really becomes critical in such a case.

I'm not so sure that as an applied technique this works so well (as compared to the first method in the youtube vid) but for a training tool there is much to work on. Not that this is relevant ...

RED
09-15-2010, 03:54 PM
I've seen this one done before. My freakin' husband loves loves loves this means of doing this technique.... I'm not a huge fan of it personally. I don't like when people try to grab strikes out of the air. There is a huge room for era when you are trying to grab something out of the air, it it limits your options IMHO. If you miss you are in an awkward situation. If you connect there is a great possibility you might end up in a position with your elbow out, being very vulnerable. I would prefer the same technique, with a cut that lead to an eventual grab if you wanted it. The cut leaves room for the technique to evolve, possibly even into other techniques.

Aikibu
09-15-2010, 06:08 PM
Lots of good advice here, particularly about the angle of the "entry" and the difference between "catching" uke's arm and making connection -- points that will prove themselves equally important in a whole variety of techniques.

Well...there are some diamonds in the rough of this topic but that's about it...

I know that sounds trollish and for that I do apologize in advance but most of what I saw would get you in serious trouble. Too much focus on avoiding the strike/executing the technique and not enough on taking Uke's center...and where's the Atemi?

William Hazen

ctoor
09-16-2010, 05:12 AM
Hello everyone,

There are too many kind responses to individually thank each person.

I must start by clarifying what 'stepping straight back' means to me to clear up any confusion: if I step back - even if there is a slight angle or twisted hips - and uke is able to ram me or deliver successive attacks of the same type, then I am not out of the way. I consider this stepping straight back for this thread's purpose. When at look at the eHow video, I feel unsafe if I were the nage. I feel safer if I were the nage in Yamada Sensei's clip where he really moves off to the side.

From the kind responses I have gotten, it is clear that is important to get off the line of attack for this technique - but taking a step back is insufficient. Yamada Sensei shows a clear movement off to the side of the attack which I admire.

Next, it has become quite clear that nage cannot and should not grab a flying punch and for good reason. Parrying down the arm to lower uke's center and unbalance him, then grabbing/scooping the forearm or wrist makes more sense.

As a bonus from this discussion, I discovered that it is not necessary to grab uke's wrist in nikkyo and raise his arm up to get behind him - I am worried about uncontrolled elbows, you see.

This was a good discussion. Thank you everyone for your time and detailed responses!

phitruong
09-16-2010, 07:26 AM
there are a bunch of iriminage that Saotome sensei shown in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bgSXa2wG_g
actually, the whole demo is about irimi. stepping back and get off the line? hell no! make the other buggers get off the line. :)

oh wait! aikido supposes to blend right? damn! need to talk to sensei about his non-blending stuffs, even though it's pretty cool, but can't have these non-blending things in aikido. can't have the rest of the world think that it's not some kind of dance. :D

Aikibu
09-16-2010, 10:23 AM
there are a bunch of iriminage that Saotome sensei shown in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bgSXa2wG_g
actually, the whole demo is about irimi. stepping back and get off the line? hell no! make the other buggers get off the line. :)

oh wait! aikido supposes to blend right? damn! need to talk to sensei about his non-blending stuffs, even though it's pretty cool, but can't have these non-blending things in aikido. can't have the rest of the world think that it's not some kind of dance. :D

Much Better...:)

William Hazen

David Yap
09-16-2010, 08:46 PM
there are a bunch of iriminage that Saotome sensei shown in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bgSXa2wG_g
actually, the whole demo is about irimi. stepping back and get off the line? hell no! make the other buggers get off the line. :)

oh wait! aikido supposes to blend right? damn! need to talk to sensei about his non-blending stuffs, even though it's pretty cool, but can't have these non-blending things in aikido. can't have the rest of the world think that it's not some kind of dance. :D

To be fair and polite, Charles (the OP) has only asked for help on his "assigned" technique. He didnt ask whether the technique he described is martially practical.

In gassho.

David Y

Aikibu
09-16-2010, 09:07 PM
To be fair and polite, Charles (the OP) has only asked for help on his "assigned" technique. He didnt ask whether the technique he described is martially practical.

In gassho.

David Y

Understood... Not every Aikido Technique has a Martial Application.;)

William Hazen

Rob Watson
09-16-2010, 09:18 PM
Understood... Not every Aikido Technique has a Martial Application.;)

William Hazen

I wonder if the converse is similarly true. In that maybe not every martial situation has an aikido solution? Perhaps a new thread is called for ...

Phil Van Treese
09-16-2010, 09:28 PM
Since when do you step back on an irimi nage when a tsuki is the attack? I have never seen that and if I did, I'd correct nage on the spot. As the punch comes in, nage steps diagonally foreward while re-directing the punch. Now that the "power"/punch has gone by you, uke's chin should fit into your elbow, enter into uke and throw in an angle----to the left front or right front. Step back is not an option since it's very hard to "catch" a punch. Just my 2 cents.

Rob Watson
09-16-2010, 09:42 PM
Since when do you step back on an irimi nage when a tsuki is the attack?

When sensei demonstrates that technique as the one to practice.

RED
09-16-2010, 09:43 PM
Since when do you step back on an irimi nage when a tsuki is the attack? I have never seen that and if I did, I'd correct nage on the spot. As the punch comes in, nage steps diagonally foreward while re-directing the punch. Now that the "power"/punch has gone by you, uke's chin should fit into your elbow, enter into uke and throw in an angle----to the left front or right front. Step back is not an option since it's very hard to "catch" a punch. Just my 2 cents.

Off line I think is the head of the nail here. :D
If you view the videos above, there instances where the tsuki can be received off line to get the uke's weight on his front foot for an ura etc etc.

C. David Henderson
09-17-2010, 01:18 PM
The irimi in this version of irimi nage occurs following initial contact between uke and nage. This isn't the way we normally do it, but we've done it with this initial "entry," which is like the one used in kid's class for ikkyo (instead, in that example, of entering ahead of the rhythm of the strike and pre-empting it). Seems to me this irimi nage may also be related to versions where the opening involves ushiro tenkan and the irimi nage opportunity/relationship arises as uke is unbalanced by being brought into, around, and up in a spiral, the direction of which is then reversed... Also not my favorite, not that it matters.

FWIW, I think there is another aspect to the particular version of the technique addressed by the OP that is important for balance- taking aside from getting off the line and how that may affect uke's balance (and it may).

To me this aspect involves learning how to step back without withdrawing your center/weight from the interaction, so that when you (hopefully) make contact with uke you don't find yourself simply "swatting" at his hand any more than trying to "catch" his punch out of the air.

Regards,

Janet Rosen
09-17-2010, 05:14 PM
To me this aspect involves learning how to step back without withdrawing your center/weight from the interaction, so that when you (hopefully) make contact with uke you don't find yourself simply "swatting" at his hand any more than trying to "catch" his punch out of the air.


I also am not a fan of in general of the "step back" response to a tsuki if the goal is to get to shikaku...however I totally agree w/ the above that it can be an invaluable training tool for the very difficult brain-body job of learning how to absorb/accept (the moving back off the line) without collapsing, so that there is a "hole" in front of uke but you continue to control the centerline and keep one's energy forward - at least that's how I experience it and work on it. YMMV.

George S. Ledyard
09-18-2010, 12:45 PM
You cant grab a punch. Itīs as simple as that.
What you can do is to make contact and affect the balance of uke. Itīs very important to move backward with the intention still directed forward, you dont want to have the feeling of escaping or fleeing. While moving backwards, cut down (in your own center) along the arm of uke. The cutting motion goes from the shoulder to the wrist and starts making contact along the biceps. Drop your hips during the cut and transfer the drop to the arm of uke. If this is done successfully you have compromised the balance of uke and created a small opening.
Remember to be quite relaxed in your arm during the cut and to move backwards in a small angle.

This is one of those wonderful techniques that only exists in the rarefied world of Aikido. It is a specialized technique that requires Aikido ukes to actually do it. Without our unique "stiff arm of death", which only Aikido people, amongst all the martial arts, actually do, one cannot execute this technique. Not if you are sixth kyu, not if you are an eighth dan. I defy anyone to actually do this technique on anyone who isn't colluding.

I teach it to my students, since it is part of the basic repertoire in Aikido but I have to ask the students to facilitate the technique by attacking in such a manner that it can be done. If they attack more like I have taught them to punch, there's no way. Anyone who can really strike will punch your lights out before you can complete the arc of the technique.

And this is true of most of the techniques we do which involve stepping back rather than entering.

Janet Rosen
09-18-2010, 03:43 PM
Without our unique "stiff arm of death", which only Aikido people, amongst all the martial arts, actually do, one cannot execute this technique.
:D

Rob Watson
09-18-2010, 04:58 PM
This is one of those wonderful techniques that only exists in the rarefied world of Aikido.

One of the down sides of having kata and waza all wrapped into one is it gets confusing! As far as a vehicle to present principles waza is stinky but kata is great. Knowing the difference is a big step forward. I'd advocate sticking the particular technique into the kata basket and not think of it as waza or applied techniques but simply a teaching tool. I'm not suggesting that Mr. Ledyard is confused about this point lest anyone thinks so. At least I like to think about such things in this way.

Not to nit pick but I've run across quite a few karateka with the zombie arm of doom syndrome (ZADS- as in 'egads, 'es got ZADS!)) and I don't think they were 'infected' by aikidoka.

WilliB
09-19-2010, 01:50 AM
This is one of those wonderful techniques that only exists in the rarefied world of Aikido. It is a specialized technique that requires Aikido ukes to actually do it.

ROTFL
bulls eye!

dps
09-19-2010, 02:48 AM
Why are you concerned about figuuring it out?

My teacher says to just do it and figure it out later.

Sounds like excellent advice and probably the best for all Aikido techniques.

David

dps
09-19-2010, 03:09 AM
You cant grab a punch. Itīs as simple as that.


If you think that tsuki means punch then you are right, but if tsuki means to thrust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuki) and thrust means to push or drive quickly and forcibly (http://www.answers.com/topic/thrust) then the technique makes sense.

David

Basia Halliop
09-19-2010, 02:00 PM
Why are you concerned about figuuring it out?

Quote:
Charles Toor wrote: View Post
My teacher says to just do it and figure it out later.

Sounds like excellent advice and probably the best for all Aikido techniques.

I assumed by figure it out he meant figure out how to do it correctly - which presumably is a large part of the point of going to class. 'Just doing it' when you're doing it wrong and without any respect to basic principles sounds like horrible training. Just fudge through and do it any which way that vaguely resembles the technique, avoid attempting to figure out how to improve it or how it's actually supposed to go, and hope that someday you'll magically start actually doing it correctly?

Of course 'figuring it out' is a process, and improvement won't come all at once, and it's best to aim just for small incremental improvements in understanding and performance, and sometimes different kinds of figuring it out take different kinds of practice, for which there is a time and a place, but I would hate to practice at any dojo where I wasn't ultimately pushed to try to figure it out...

Basia Halliop
09-19-2010, 02:30 PM
Regarding zombie arm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKhYHrJHA6k

Apparently the problem is not entirely unknown in other arts too :).

grondahl
09-19-2010, 04:28 PM
Ok. Whats the japanese name for punch then? Because all aikido waza Iīve seen involving some kind of punch has been called "tsuki"-something.

If you think that tsuki means punch then you are right, but if tsuki means to thrust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuki) and thrust means to push or drive quickly and forcibly (http://www.answers.com/topic/thrust) then the technique makes sense.

dps
09-19-2010, 06:35 PM
Ok. Whats the japanese name for punch then? Because all aikido waza Iīve seen involving some kind of punch has been called "tsuki"-something.

I do not know the Japanese language and am relying on the internet for definitions. I hope those more knowledgeable will comment.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_Japanese_word_for_punch
"If you are referring to the verb 'to punch,' you may say 'naguru.'

I was taught tsuki meant thrust like with a knife, jo, similar to a push or grab. In this context stepping back off line increases your distance between you and uke and gives you a better opportunity to unbalance your opponent .

Just one definition of tsuki that the technique fits.


David

dps
09-19-2010, 06:59 PM
Also if someone throws a punch and you step back off line then the attacker steps forward for another punch, this provides an opportunity for off balancing your opponent.

David

WilliB
09-19-2010, 11:42 PM
I do not know the Japanese language and am relying on the internet for definitions. I hope those more knowledgeable will comment.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_Japanese_word_for_punch
"If you are referring to the verb 'to punch,' you may say 'naguru.'

I was taught tsuki meant thrust like with a knife, jo, similar to a push or grab. In this context stepping back off line increases your distance between you and uke and gives you a better opportunity to unbalance your opponent .
Just one definition of tsuki that the technique fits.
David

I know a bit of Japanese, and I can assure you that tsuki refers not only to a knife thrust, but to all sorts of punches too. (What in Aikido is called a "tsuki" is an oi-tsuki if you want to be technical.)

And naguru is a verb, not a noun. And you donīt really hear it in martial arts descriptions, it is more something youīd hear your kid complain about in the playground.

hth

Aikibu
09-19-2010, 11:55 PM
Also if someone throws a punch and you step back off line then the attacker steps forward for another punch, this provides an opportunity for off balancing your opponent.

David

??? No...It provides the skilled attacker with the initiative because you're still reacting to his movement...Only in Aikido do you see punches "thrown" without regard to counters feints and combination's on the part of Uke... Always assume "other hand coming!" ( As Masa Tazakai Sensei used to scream LOL).

William Hazen

dps
09-20-2010, 01:18 AM
I know a bit of Japanese, and I can assure you that tsuki refers not only to a knife thrust, but to all sorts of punches too. (What in Aikido is called a "tsuki" is an oi-tsuki if you want to be technical.)


That was part of my point.
David

dps
09-20-2010, 01:29 AM
Only in Aikido do you see punches "thrown" without regard to counters feints and combination's on the part of Uke... ( As Masa Tazakai Sensei used to scream LOL).

Not iif your sensei knows how to box.

David

grondahl
09-20-2010, 07:19 AM
Funny, I see these kind of attacks in almost all martial arts that does not do some kind of "alive" training.

Only in Aikido do you see punches "thrown" without regard to counters feints and combination's on the part of Uke...

Aikibu
09-20-2010, 11:43 AM
Not iif your sensei knows how to box.

David

Cool. So I guess that means he does not teach this technique then? :)

William Hazen

Aikibu
09-20-2010, 11:47 AM
Funny, I see these kind of attacks in almost all martial arts that does not do some kind of "alive" training.

Agreed......However...I've experienced some pretty badass Martial Artists who do nothing but Kata 98% of the time (The other 2% are spent kicking my butt on the mat). :)

One's attitude and focus go a long way....:)

William Hazen

David Yap
09-20-2010, 08:40 PM
Regarding zombie arm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKhYHrJHA6k

Apparently the problem is not entirely unknown in other arts too :).

Yes, Jim Carey's "you're attacking me wrongly" video. Indeed we can find McSensei in other arts too. The problem is more prevalent in Aikido. When you find a McSensei in Aikido there will always be a cult in his dojo protecting his incompetency.

ctoor
09-26-2010, 09:51 PM
Why are you concerned about figuuring it out?

Sounds like excellent advice and probably the best for all Aikido techniques.

David

Hi David: 'figure it out later' means to me just go through the motions without thinking about it, and hope it works without an explanation of why this is good against 'ZAOD' (:D ) as well as a quick-3-punch boxer (like, jab,jab,hook). However, if my sensei said this is mental practice or timing practice, then I would feel better about just doing it, you know? But I was just told to do it and figure it out later. I asked why we do it, and the response was, "Because we have always done it."

George S. Ledyard
10-29-2010, 01:17 AM
Why are you concerned about figuuring it out?

Sounds like excellent advice and probably the best for all Aikido techniques.

David

That's rather like my parents who said, "You'll understand when you're grown up. Well, I am almost sixty and a grandfather, and many of the things they said still make no sense to me... I figure that, if it's ever going to make sense, it's explainable right now.

There may be something that, even with the best explanation, will not really be understood without lots of practice. But, in my experience, when a teacher starts in on just do it and you'll understand later, he is usually either not comfortable with the technique enough to explain it coherently or is simply feeling to lazy at the time to do so.

The exception to this is in the case of the relatively rare student who is totally up in his head and wants to over analyze everything... then it's shut up and train time.

As for the "why are you concerned with figuring it out?" question, well, because that's your job.