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09-10-2010, 03:13 PM
See attached file. The photo of admiral Takeshita is almost the same as Ohba sensei, Tomiki's assistent, demonstrating a technique from a kata of the Tomiki system called Koryu no kata dai roku.
In these koryu no kata many techniques have a prewar history from the time Tomiki and Ohba were students of Ueshiba.
The koryu no kata in the Tomiki system is not known in depth by many Tomiki aikidoka.
09-10-2010, 06:32 PM
I'm guessing it is the same photo found on Aikido Journal?
09-10-2010, 08:32 PM
We call this technique hijime osae. The way it is done on the photos is not very effective with big strong attacker. Rather, the arms of the attacker must be locked in vertical position, and not horizontal. So nage can use the weight of his body instead of only shoulders.
09-10-2010, 10:47 PM
09-11-2010, 12:05 AM
not very effective with big strong attacker.
When done at speed with the intent to dislocate the elbow the angle of the arm is irrelevant, or so I've found. When done slowly the execution must be perfect otherwise the arm does need a bit of elevation towards the vertical but I prefer not to commit so assertively the body weight in such a manner... there may be 'friends' about that need attention precluded by excessive dependence of the body weight. But then, I'm big and moderately strong as well as fairly good looking.
I have no experience in the Tomiki system but have been shown this technique by Yoshinkai, Iwama and 'standard' Aikikai instructors.The form shown in the photos do not match exactly the positioning of nages arms that I'm familiar with but fairly close.
09-11-2010, 01:16 AM
This is the technique.
This is not a regular "waki gatame" from the Tomiki aikido syllabus, btw the horizontal waki gatame is indeed very effective in shiai and it is not done with a lot of pressure on the elbow.
My daito ryu knowledge is not very high, the daito ryu guys here can maybe tell me of their version is similar. I suppose many techniques of our koryu no kata have some daito ryu background.
09-11-2010, 07:13 AM
We call this technique hijime osae. The way it is done on the photos is not very effective with big strong attacker.
I don't see this as a standard hijikimeosae or hijikudaki (as we call it). And I also fail to see its ineffectiveness, me being a big strong attacker. But there you go; different colors for different people.
09-11-2010, 03:40 PM
Tomiki Ryu and Yoseikan both have pre-war roots and strong ties to judo, so maybe I can help?
Those images resemble a part of a Yoseikan kata called Ken Tai Ichi no Kata (Form of Sword and Body as One). This is a kata we practice here in the states and which may possibly be practiced elsewhere. If I remember correctly this kata has three phases broken down into five techniques per phase. The phases are sword on sword, sword verses empty hand and finally, empty hand against empty hand. The first part of the second phase (which resembles those pics) is hiji kudaki (elbow smashing). I'm a just a student, but I believe the kata illustrates a transition from bujutsu to jujutsu to aikido. Hope this helps.
09-11-2010, 04:03 PM
I don't know why but I guess I went off on a tangent there about the kata.
What was your question Eddy?
09-11-2010, 08:43 PM
The koryu no kata in the Tomiki system is not known in depth by many Tomiki aikidoka. Hi Eddy,
Since the Koryu Go Shin no Kata aka Koryu Dai San is a major requirement for Dan tests in the J.A.A what makes you say the above?
You mention Koryu Dai Roku. This is interesting as I have it from very good authority that Tomiki saw only one kata as Koryu (i.e. the Go Shin no Kata) and did not want students to merely memorize a large set of kata techniques (a la Koryu Dai Ichi, Ni etc.) without depth, but instead to study the Koryu Go Shin no Kata deeply to understand the classical martial reality of his method.
Just a thought based on recent discussions with a J.A.A. shihan.
09-12-2010, 04:31 AM
To answer to Larry's remark :The Tomiki system is more than randori techniques and goshin no kata. The JAA syllabus is just a minimal requirement for dangrade testing.JAA is an umbrella for different organisations (Shodokan, Shidokan....)Every organisation can add more requirements to their syllabus. Some of them are using the 6 koryu no kata in their syllabus. If Tomiki sensei advised to study the goshin no kata, and not the other koryu, maybe this was an advice to the university students and not to the older aikido people who were training in the local dojo's, for example the Okubo Sports Kaikan, the dojo of Ohba sensei. Why we have to practice those koryu no kata, please read the words of Ohba sensei :
[I]"During the mid-60 Ohba Sensei and others worked on the creation of the kata forms of the dai-ichi (first) to dai-roku (sixth), which we presently practice as the koryu no kata, in order to work on techniques for demonstrations and for purposes other than randori. What Ohba Sensei particularly stressed in formulating these kata was the organization of different techniques in such a way that students could learn connections between techniques easily and naturally. After he had organized the techniques to some extent, Ohba Sensei reported to Tomiki Sensei and demonstrated what he had done for him. He received some advice from Tomiki Sensei and then added corrections to the kata. ("Bujin Hideo Ohba," Kyogi Aikido Soseiki no Ayumi; Ohba Hideo Sensei o Shinobu)"
My original question or observation is about the relationship between prewar aikido and daito ryu and the techniques in the different koryu no kata we are practising now by a minority of Tomiki Aikido people. I took 1 example because the picture of admiral Takeshita is rather well known. In other parts of the koryu no kata we can see judo kata influence, or maybe older Koryu jujutsu styles.
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