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Kat.C
05-09-2002, 04:39 PM
I'm a little confused by some of the posts on fighting. Everyone seems to be advocating running way from an attacker as the best defense, especially from somone with a knife. Now I think avoiding a fight would definitely be the best thing, but if you are attacked, is turning your back on your attacker and running away really the best thing to do? I would have thought that you would be making yourself an even easier target. I mean, if you run and they chase you and attack from behind surely you are at a disadvantage. Aren't you?:confused: I must be missing something as almost everyone is saying 'run' and alot of you have years of martial arts training and some of you have been in fights. So what am I missing?:confused:

Brian Vickery
05-09-2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Kat.C
I'm a little confused by some of the posts on fighting. Everyone seems to be advocating running way from an attacker as the best defense, especially from somone with a knife. Now I think avoiding a fight would definitely be the best thing, but if you are attacked, is turning your back on your attacker and running away really the best thing to do? I would have thought that you would be making yourself an even easier target. I mean, if you run and they chase you and attack from behind surely you are at a disadvantage. Aren't you?:confused: I must be missing something as almost everyone is saying 'run' and alot of you have years of martial arts training and some of you have been in fights. So what am I missing?:confused:

Hello Kat,

'Back-pedalling' will get you in alot of trouble! ...it's far better to turn tail and really run ...you have the advantage of suprise, because you made the move 1st, and you can quickly change direction, again causing your attacker to try & catch up ...plus his strike will not have the same force behind it if he is running, rather than you just standing there and taking it full force.

Just my 2 cents worth!

Regards,

daedalus
05-09-2002, 04:56 PM
One day during class, my sensei waved away my partner for a moment and took a stance accross from me, drawing a bokken. As he started to cut, I blanked. I turned and started to run to the back of the dojo.

He started laughing and said, "At least you moved, so it's a start, but we don't run like that here. You have to face the conflict straight on."

I nodded, and then he added, "Or you run for the door, not for the corner."

Kat.C
05-09-2002, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Brian Vickery


Hello Kat,

'Back-pedalling' will get you in alot of trouble! ...it's far better to turn tail and really run ...you have the advantage of suprise, because you made the move 1st, and you can quickly change direction, again causing your attacker to try & catch up ...plus his strike will not have the same force behind it if he is running, rather than you just standing there and taking it full force.

Just my 2 cents worth!

Regards,

Surprise would definitely be an advantage, but if your attacker is faster than you he will catch you. And he might not strike you from behind, he might grab you or tackle you and then hit you. And if you turned and ran you would not be able to see him and so would have no idea what his next attack would be, or when.
Just thought I would mention that I'm not saying that running is wrong I'm just trying to understand why it is the best thing to do.

PeterR
05-09-2002, 07:01 PM
Hi Kat;

Retreat and how you retreat is a tactical option dictated by circumstance.

Sometimes it is better to stand and fight, sometimes its better to turn and run, sometimes its better to back peddle and hope the circumstances change. Other times just give up what the person wants.

Look at it this way. You nubile and young are faced with a lumbering ox without a projectile weapon - what would you do?

On the other hand you are now faced with someone with your build, a knife and the desire to use it. Like you alluded - turning your back might be the last silly thing you do.

And now to my favourite running away joke.

Two guys in the woods come across an enraged bear.

Bear: Rarrrrr!!!!
Person 1: Run its a bear!!!

after a few minutes of persuit.

Person 1: Gasp gasp we'll never outrun the bear.

Person 2: What do you mean - I only have to outrun you.

guest1234
05-09-2002, 08:22 PM
I think most are advocating avoiding the situation in the first place--I loved the comment about biker bars and ATMs at 2 am--common sense goes a long way. If you cannot avoid the situation, try to avoid getting so close to another that they can attack you. If you cannot avoid that, try to project the feeling that attacking you is a bad idea (for them). If they attack anyway, as soon as is tactically possible, get way from the situation. This can be an initial outrunning if possible, or after something that evens up the odds (grinding your heel into their instep, or the keys tricks you know already, heck, even an Aikido technique perhaps) but assume you will get cut in doing so.:eek:

I liked the bear analogy...not many folks want to try their Aikido on a bear or a lion, but a 240 pound drug crazed felon with a knife is probably not much easier to work with...

shihonage
05-09-2002, 08:43 PM
Run, Forrest !
Run !


:) :eek: :)

thomasgroendal
05-09-2002, 10:06 PM
I always teach running away as an option for an ending to tenkan undo. Particularily with a knife.
My jo teacher's aikijujutsu teacher,(a very very big name that I don't feel like misquoting) used to say he could potentially take a knife. This is a top dog here, not just some schmutz. In aikido we practice sword taking spear taking, and anything else that we might like.
If one of the top dogs of a combative martial art was humble enough to admit that he MIGHT be able to take a knife I think the rest of us might reconsider how far our techniques apply to sincere combative combinations.
Irimi, Tenkan, Atemi, Distraction, then when you have a significant advantage on a deadly opponent, USE IT.
RUN LIKE HELL.
(and run faster!)

Edward
05-09-2002, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by thomasgroendal
If one of the top dogs of a combative martial art was humble enough to admit that he MIGHT be able to take a knife I think the rest of us might reconsider how far our techniques apply to sincere combative combinations.


It is not unusual in aikido that a beginner, after a few classes of tantodori with a cooperating partner, feels like God and that no attacker can stop him. The worst thing is that this overconfidence does not disappear with rank but rather increases ;)

shihonage
05-09-2002, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Edward


It is not unusual in aikido that a beginner, after a few classes of tantodori with a cooperating partner, feels like God and that no attacker can stop him. The worst thing is that this overconfidence does not disappear with rank but rather increases ;)

Some people only wake up when life smacks them upside the head with a large brick.

No matter what you say or do, these people can not be helped until something happens to them.

akiy
05-10-2002, 12:12 AM
Being able to back up in the same manner as one learns how to enter in aikido is, I believe, a very important and understated principle...

-- Jun

Kat.C
05-10-2002, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by PeterR
Hi Kat;

Retreat and how you retreat is a tactical option dictated by circumstance.

Sometimes it is better to stand and fight, sometimes its better to turn and run, sometimes its better to back peddle and hope the circumstances change. Other times just give up what the person wants.

Look at it this way. You nubile and young are faced with a lumbering ox without a projectile weapon - what would you do?

On the other hand you are now faced with someone with your build, a knife and the desire to use it. Like you alluded - turning your back might be the last silly thing you do.

And now to my favourite running away joke.

Two guys in the woods come across an enraged bear.

Bear: Rarrrrr!!!!

Person 1: Run its a bear!!!

after a few minutes of persuit.

Person 1: Gasp gasp we'll never outrun the bear.

Person 2: What do you mean - I only have to outrun you.

Hello Peter,
Thanks for clearing up my confusion,:) I was assuming people meant to always run away, that it is a decision based on circumstance makes sense. Great visualisations, I hadn't been able to think of a situation in which running would work, but if ones attacker is obviously slower and less agile I'd run, and of course if ones attacker is a bear, guess aikido wouldn't work on one of those :eek:
I suppose running would work well for people who can run fast. I do run sometimes, but usually just when walking my dog so he can get a workout,(of course despite the fact that he is twelve he is in great shape and much faster than me:o ), and it is jogging really,not running.
I am beginning to see why my karate senseis advocated running (and had us do it so much:grr: ) perhaps I will belatedly take their advice and start up a running program.
Thank you again Peter

Kat.C
05-10-2002, 05:58 AM
OK, I'm clueing in, as I said in my reply to Peter, I thought people meant to run always and without doing anything else but as Colleen and Thomas posted about getting an advantage against your attacker, then running, it makes complete sense to me now.
Thank you all.:)

Originally posted by akiy
Being able to back up in the same manner as one learns how to enter in aikido is, I believe, a very important and understated principle...

-- Jun
Umm, are you referring to tenshi(tenshi is the term for the movement where you back up isn't it?) or something else?

ian
05-10-2002, 06:55 AM
I think every situation is quite unique. Whether you should run depends on various factors which include what your opponent has to gain from the attack, and what you have to gain from defending.

i.e. if it is someone attacking you for specific reasons (such as vandalising his car) they may persue you for quite some distance, whereas if they are attacking you to try and look tough, they will be very happy for you to run away.

If it is the local bully and you stand up to them, win or loose you may be able to deter his behaviour. Also, if you have a small child with you or slower associates, you may not be able to run from an attacker.

For me the question of running or not depends on whether aikido for you is just a self-defence or whether it is also Budo.

Ian

akiy
05-10-2002, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by Kat.C
Umm, are you referring to tenshi(tenshi is the term for the movement where you back up isn't it?) or something else?
Tenshin would be one way to describe what I'm talking about. I'm also referring to when people are doing kumitachi and kumijo that, oftentimes, their weight is too much on the front foot and people just can't go back to avoid a strike (or somesuch) fast enough.

-- Jun

Bruce Baker
05-10-2002, 08:31 AM
Never forget the first rule of protection or the reason to learn martial arts:

Do whatever it takes to protect yourself, and continue your life.

That particular statement can be interpreted as fighting, or running. There is no material item that you own that is not replaceable. Your life is not a replacable item.

So if you decide to fight, there can be no indecision.

Even if you run, the option to change the circumstances of attacker into victim can not be thought about, it must happen.

Not all of us consider the mindset of the robber, attacker, bully, or murderer? Somewhere between meeting the goals of the robber, to having to fight for your life with a murderer, you training in Aikido will give you a better chance to stack the odds in your favor. Sometimes, this is all you have to change a bad situation into a survivable one.

I know in a couple of street robberies I was involved with in my teenage years, I was able to put off a bad situation by keeping forty dollars handy in a somewhat empty wallet, but in others running was the best solution as it got the mugger arrested.

Consider the first rule, its vast boundarys, and many solutions. Stack the odds in your favor ... practice aikido.

Edward
05-10-2002, 08:50 AM
This thread gave me a great idea that I will suggest to sensei tomorrow. Aikido class should include an exercice where uke runs after tori and tries to beat the s**t out of him while tori makes sure not to be caught ;)

guest1234
05-10-2002, 09:39 AM
Well, that would be useful only if you let nage do what nage should be doing in that situation: ie, yelling for help ('fire,' actually, is usually more effective), running into another room or building and locking the door then dialing 911, crossing the street against the flow of traffic, jumping on a bus or train, climbing and then removing a ladder, etc... running in circles around the mat is not quite the same thing

Brian Vickery
05-10-2002, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by ca
...running in circles around the mat is not quite the same thing

Hi Colleenn

...I'm with you on this one!

...but Boy, I'd sure LOVE to watch a class doing this!!! ;^)

One of those 'aiki' kodak moments if there ever was one!

Don_Modesto
05-10-2002, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by akiy
Being able to back up in the same manner as one learns how to enter in aikido is, I believe, a very important and understated principle...-- Jun

What did you--Jun, or anyone else who saw it at the expo--think of Matsuoka spending so much of his randori running backwards?

akiy
05-11-2002, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Don_Modesto
What did you--Jun, or anyone else who saw it at the expo--think of Matsuoka spending so much of his randori running backwards?
I've heard the concept of moving backwards during randori to be nearly an anathema in aikido circles as it "draws your ukes towards you like a funnel," but it seemed to work OK for him during the randori if I saw it correctly. I believe Georde Ledyard was commenting on how if you go backwards then run a "J" or "hook" pattern off to the side, you'll very often "line up" all of the uke that you have, making them much easier to throw one at a time.

Of course, my last attempt at randori (with five attackers) was pretty hopeless and had my instructor commenting on how I (as well as others) needed more work on our randori, so you'll have to take my thoughts with a grain or two of salt...

-- Jun

Chocolateuke
05-11-2002, 11:55 PM
I suggest if people wanna know about criminal mindset and tatics of not getting attacked ( this can really supplement training) to go http://www.diac.com/~dgordon for some info, also Marcs book street E and E is a good book on not just running but stragisticly running meaning having a plan, running isnt just running but make barriers run somewere safe, ect. Although the language gets kinda bad he says some good stuff!

Brian H
05-12-2002, 10:28 AM
In the police academy they teach the retreat and move to the side as the "tactical J". Usually it is practised as moving to the strong side and turning your body so your pistol is away from the attacker. The theory is that an attacker (particulatly a drunk one) will have more difficultly tracking you than if you went staight back. (basic stuff to an aikidoka) However, I would submit to you that this type of technique is best suited to someone who is armed/and or willing to counterattack. The movement lets you take control of the timeing and distance of the engagement, but is not an "escape."

Turning and running is basicly a two step process, and the attacker only has one step (i.e. pounce on the good guy etc.). A workable Aiki answer is to enter DEEPLY with irimi as you are attacked. If you find yourself in a position where atemi or a technique is possible, then have at it, if not run like hell passed the attacker. The he has to turn and chase, so the slower responce is forced on him.

Choku Tsuki
05-12-2002, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by Don_Modesto


What did you--Jun, or anyone else who saw it at the expo--think of Matsuoka spending so much of his randori running backwards?

The feeling I got watching this was mild disappointment. It's fair to suppose he used all that mat space because it was there. Brace this against this fact: for anyone the Aiki Expo Friendship Demonstration is a 'life or death" situation because of the amount of attention the demo would receive, the scrutiny, the inevitable criticism, it's wide dissemination via videotape. Especially for the demonstrator but also the ukes. So, no one is perfect. Running backward is one of the things I have never heard as a good randori strategy, so that was not a positive.

For randori I charge the strongest uke on either end; like Jun says that lines them up. I like an irimi technique first; I think randori is about taking charge and psychology is important too. Running backwards also sends the wrong message.

I remarked to Jun (before Ikeda Shihan's demo) that it seemed (from my perspective) that in general uke were more nervous than nage, and uke tripped up the demos more than anything else.

I found the demos exciting. Some were intentionally humorous. One just sad. One exceptionally inspiring, a few impressive, all entertaining.

--Chuck

akiy
05-13-2002, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by nyaikido
Brace this against this fact: for anyone the Aiki Expo Friendship Demonstration is a 'life or death" situation because of the amount of attention the demo would receive, the scrutiny, the inevitable criticism, it's wide dissemination via videotape. Especially for the demonstrator but also the ukes.
Eek! How come no one told me that!? I should have put on my fancy hakama! And had my dogi dry cleaned and pressed! And had my hair done!
I remarked to Jun (before Ikeda Shihan's demo) that it seemed (from my perspective) that in general uke were more nervous than nage, and uke tripped up the demos more than anything else.
Frankly, I was somewhat nervous beforehand. My teacher said not to worry that it would "just be like keiko" (meaning he'd be throwing me the same way he usually throws me any way), and it turned out to be pretty much just that. Of course, after the first technique (a relatively soft ikkyo), it did just turn into pretty much what I experience when I take ukemi from him so it wasn't all that different. Our whole demo seemed really short, though -- probably just a couple of minutes in length.

I'll say, though, it was quite a rush to walk onto the mat with a few hundred people applauding with flash bulbs going off. Quite a difference, say, from going up for my last dan test just a week before the Expo (albeit with less than half a day's notice!).

But, hey -- I was only one uke out of four for my teacher (two of whom were sixth dan). I have to put it to the instructors here on these Forums like Georde Ledyard and Chuck Clark who actually put on the demonstrations themselves -- not to mention Peter Goldsbury who was one of the headlining instructors of the entire Expo! Hats off to them!

As far as moving backwards in randori (the topic of this thread...) goes, does anyone else have thoughts on this matter?

-- Jun

AikiAlf
05-13-2002, 11:55 AM
My teacher usually points out that you can't retreat as fast as you advance, and that it usually leads to ukes cramming you in multi-man attack so you lose the initiative and get overwhelmed easily. This has been pointed out to me while its been happening, not to mention the eyes on the back of my head not noticing that I'm retreating right into the uke behind me.

Whenever I retreat in Randori even for a step or two it gets real hairy real fast unless there was no one behind me and I can't usually tell.

Maybe its something you can get away when awareness is more developed.

SeiserL
05-15-2002, 12:24 PM
IMHO, enter and blend is not running away from a conflict. Besides, running away can set up a chase mentality in your attacker which will only further facilitate attack.

Einstein said that to type of thinking that creates a problem is never the type of thinking that solves it. Attack is a fear based action. Fight, flight, or freeze are all fear based responses. More of the same thinking. The flow of blending is not fear based. It is a counter without being a counter attack.

Walking away is different than running away and usually happens a lot sooner.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

Brian Vickery
05-15-2002, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by SeiserL

... Attack is a fear based action.

Lynn,

Please elaborate on this statement and explain what you mean by an attack being 'fear' based?!?!

Regards,

Erik
05-15-2002, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by SeiserL
IMHO, enter and blend is not running away from a conflict. Besides, running away can set up a chase mentality in your attacker which will only further facilitate attack.

Einstein said that to type of thinking that creates a problem is never the type of thinking that solves it. Attack is a fear based action. Fight, flight, or freeze are all fear based responses. More of the same thinking. The flow of blending is not fear based. It is a counter without being a counter attack.

Walking away is different than running away and usually happens a lot sooner.


This is a little too absolute for me although I'd probably agree with the general premise. I could see consciously delivering responses of fight or flight in certain situations as very valid. When the Germans came across the border into Poland the Polish people pretty much had to fight. Prior to that a number of countries had attempted to blend with Germany: England and France in regards to the Czech's for instance. It didn't work and it just encouraged Hitler.

On the other end, the USSR had to run when the Germans came over the border. They'd tried to fight and we're slaughtered. You might dispute that and call it blending, I've heard it done, but basically they ran. They didn't have a good clean alternative.

I think WW2 could also be a good example that contradicts and confirms Einstien's comment. First, war did solve the problem of war through war. However, what changed the likelihood of repeating the war was a different approach to reparations from WW1. So different thinking did win out on that one.

Again, I think I generally agree with the premise but I can't accept it as an absolute. I can think of plenty of situations were you can't blend. The classic is when someone else is attacked. You respond and help them. We might not call it an attack but I'm pretty sure we wouldn't call it a blend either because there was nothing to blend with. Non-resistance?

shihonage
05-15-2002, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Erik

On the other end, the USSR had to run when the Germans came over the border. They'd tried to fight and we're slaughtered.

The Soviet Union was the country who played the largest, by far, role in defeating Germans.

They turned the war around. What are you talking about ?

Erik
05-15-2002, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by shihonage


The Soviet Union was the country who played the largest, by far, role in defeating Germans.

They turned the war around. What are you talking about ?

1941 and a large part of 1942.

Yes, they played a very major part in defeating the Germans.

Thalib
05-15-2002, 08:15 PM
Retreating does not mean one is giving up. When one knows that one can't win, then one will not engage in a fight where one would die needlessly. Even Musashi admitted this, that's why he was undefeated. This is a strategy that is still widely used even in modern military, especially in modern military. "Live to fight another day".

Stalin's naivity of the non-aggression pact with Hitler was the cause of the destruction started 22 June 1941, operation Barbarossa.

The Russians suffered a great loss caused by Hitler's surprise attack. The Luftwaffe destroyed Russian fighters that is still parked on the runway, Wehrmacht's panzers attacked in blitzkrieg fashion. About 660,000 Russians were killed or captured, about 1/3 of the Red Army.

The Russians did not retreat, they were backtabbed. The counter-offensive was done immediately. With the help of the Russian's Katyusha rockets, the situation was stabilized by April 1942.

Erik
05-16-2002, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by Thalib
Stalin's naivity of the non-aggression pact with Hitler was the cause of the destruction started 22 June 1941, operation Barbarossa.

The Russians suffered a great loss caused by Hitler's surprise attack. The Luftwaffe destroyed Russian fighters that is still parked on the runway, Wehrmacht's panzers attacked in blitzkrieg fashion. About 660,000 Russians were killed or captured, about 1/3 of the Red Army.

Agreed!

The Russians did not retreat, they were backtabbed. The counter-offensive was done immediately. With the help of the Russian's Katyusha rockets, the situation was stabilized by April 1942.

Actually they ran like hell and fought where they could, err, were ordered to with a gun at their back. The situation was very far from stabilized in early 1942 though. The Russian army suffered a tremendous defeat at Kharkov for instance. While I think it's fair to say that by 1942 the threat of being wiped off the map had ended, the winter took care of that, they still spent much of 1942 advancing to the rear so to speak.

The Russians did try to counter attack numerous times but lets be honest, 1941 was a rout. If not for the winter Germany might have pulled it off. Still, it was a mighty big country. I doubt very much that Germany could have digested it when all was said and done.

Oh, and it wasn't just the surprise attack. Stalin had a tendency to kill his own people. That went for the army too. While it was the largest army in the world when Hitler atacked it was very far from the best run in terms of leadership. Stalin was the type of guy you just didn't want as a friend or as an enemy.

Thalib
05-16-2002, 10:00 AM
The Russian winter + the slash and burn tactics made it impossible for the Nazis to survive the region. Like during the Napolean invasion of Russia, when the Russians retreat they burn everything and poison the water, leaving not food, water, nor shelter.

Stalin is the type of guy that I don't want to be in the same region with, make that the same era.

les paul
05-18-2002, 08:28 PM
Having faced someone with a club I chose to stand my ground. However, all must choose their own path.

What is important is knowing the correct path to choose.

Do you stand or retreat?

Everyone's Aikido training should be teaching/exploring several methods or options to use in situation like the one mentioned in the lead post.

Myself, I dislike firearms but...

Weapons are always an option too.

I'd rather face an experience knife fighting thug with a jo or hanbo or maybe a manrikigusari that I just pulled from my pocket, than with nothing at all.

Heck a belt with a big belt buckel could be of use too.

But in accordance with Aikido, I think it's important to be thinking of defense and obtaining harmony when in a situation like this. (i.e. how do a best protect myself and how do I remove myself from the conflict by the path of least resistance)

For me it's not running, but for others it might be. This doesn't mean you can't run around a corner and hit your attacker with a irimi-nage as he comes around in hot pursuit!

les paul
just my thoughts

SeiserL
05-18-2002, 08:36 PM
IMHO, I agree with some of the earlier comments (and critiques) from the Aiki Expo Freindship Demonstrations. The randoris that stand out are those that entered and blended rather than ran away by backing up.

Jun, BTW was part of an excellent demonstration. Deepest compliments and appreciation. My own Sensei Phong started the demos saturday night and he always teaches us to go into (even after) the next uke. Once contact is initaited, it is maintained.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

guest1234
05-18-2002, 09:44 PM
I really enjoyed that demonstration... I leaned over to my sensei and laughingly remarked someone had forgot to tell your sensei that 'size matters' in Aikido...:D

akiy
05-19-2002, 01:17 AM
Hi Lynn,

Originally posted by SeiserL
Jun, BTW was part of an excellent demonstration. Deepest compliments and appreciation.
Thanks! I was honored to be asked to be part of the demonstrations by my teacher. Of course, being thrown by him would make pretty much anyone look good!

I enjoyed Phong sensei's demonstrations quite a lot. I can no longer whine about being smaller/lighter than uke after having seen his demonstration...

-- Jun

nikonl
05-19-2002, 01:42 AM
This thread contradicts earlier threads which goes towards the idea that running away from an attacker is a good choice. Am i right? I'm not very sure. Hope someone could clarify

So exactly, when is running away from an attacker the right choice and when is it not?
Any real examples?

Thanx :)

guest1234
05-19-2002, 06:21 AM
Running away is a good idea when it is more likely that you will get away than it is you will be able to vanquish your attacker. So, if your Aikido is not so good, and you are not so big, your chances are better that you will outrun than beat-up your 240 pound attacker, especially if he does not have a gun and you can slow him down with either a foot injury for him, or available obstacles to put in his path, and perhaps attract help. This is an 'on the street' application not necessary in practice, as uke is not really going to kill you, and you are not able to run for safety if restricted to the mat.


The issue of the demo folks are talking about (the sensei who backed up) actually looked to me more to be runing backwards and sideways while facing his ukes (not an easy move to make, BTW), not turning his back to run away. Some have explained that as a tactic to draw ukes into a line, and if you think about it, you may have used something similar with just one partner during regular practice: there are some techniques that require a strong forward attack from uke. Sometimes uke, either because he is new, or non-energetic, or just doesn't understand the energy he needs to give, barely moves toward you. You then move backwards, while facing him, hoping to draw enough energy out of him to effect the throw.

Peter Goldsbury
05-19-2002, 08:35 AM
On the very few occasions when I have used aikido outside the dojo, on reflecting what happened afterwards I saw that I entered deeply and used a sharp atemi at the throat or face, rather like irimi nage without the taisabaki. The attackers were on the floor before they realised what had happened--and I did not stay around to discuss matters.

I really do not think that the Friendship demonstration at the Aiki Expo was a 'life or death' situation. There was a huge mat area and all the ukes I saw in the aikido demonstrations were doing their best to cooperate with nage. You know, good 'clean' attacks, so that nage could demonstrate the effectiveness of the techniques. My own ukes were no exception.

Why do I think this? Well, on my way home from Las Vegas, I sat in airplanes for several hours and on the longest stetch (Los Angeles - Tokyo) my seat was the aisle seat on the first row upstairs, directly facing the captain's compartment. This would have been a crucial spot for dealing with any hijacker and I had ten hours of leisure to consider 'life or death' randori in a confined space.

I really have no idea what I would have done had the plane been hijacked, but I think I would have tried very hard to throw any hijacker backwards down the staircase. And this could be done in the space available only by entering and very hard atemi.

In aikido, I think ta-ninzu-gake against four attackers is most difficult (left, right, front, rear). If you have more than four, they get into each other's way. My instinct, probably based on experience, is to enter continuously and bisect large circles, and to try to throw one uke directly in the path of the other(s).

I was once counselled by an eminent aikido shihan that when confronted by a determined attacker with a knife, the best course would be to run, but on a plane, this would be impossible.

Best regards to all,

Bronson
05-20-2002, 01:40 AM
Could somebody out there with law experience confirm or deny this? I've read that many states in the U.S. require the victim of an attack to leave (run away) at the first available moment. If they don't leave and continue a counter attack then in the eyes of the law they are now the aggressor.

So if someone attacks me and I punch, kick, throw, trip, or avoid him and an opening for me to run appears and I DON'T take it, I am now the attacker and can be charged appropriately. Am I remembering this correctly?

Thanks,
Bronson

nikonl
05-20-2002, 03:27 AM
Mr. Peter Goldsbury, could you please elaborate further on the irimi nage without the taisabaki. I was wondering why did you do that and what is it actually.

Thanx :)

Peter Goldsbury
05-20-2002, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by nikon
Mr. Peter Goldsbury, could you please elaborate further on the irimi nage without the taisabaki. I was wondering why did you do that and what is it actually.

Thanx :)

Well, as it so happens, we had a seminar here in Hiroshima over the weekend which was taught by Tada Hiroshi Shihan, 9th dan, and Tada Sensei made a connected point.

Actually, I was rather loose in my last post and should have mentioned irimi-nage without the tenkan movement. Of course, you need to make a taisabaki when you enter (irimi), but usually irimi nage is practised with a large tenkan movement, of anything from 90 degrees to a full circle.

Tada Sensei explained that the technique has two components, entering and the tenkan movement, but it can be done very effectively without the latter. In a plane, there would be no space anyway to execute such a movement.

Best regards,

paw
05-20-2002, 06:39 AM
Bronson,

Could somebody out there with law experience confirm or deny this? I've read that many states in the U.S. require the victim of an attack to leave (run away) at the first available moment. If they don't leave and continue a counter attack then in the eyes of the law they are now the aggressor.

This isn't legal advice, I'm just thinking out loud, ok? You really want to talk to a lawyer about this.

Generally, in self-defense force must parallel the danger. If you had an opportunity to escape, and chose to remain and continue to fight, your motive may be questioned if you were not facing a "serious" threat (or if the threat was no longer present). This is one generic guess as to how the law would be interpreted... You should really contact a lawyer or perhaps a DA in your state about this.

You may be able to find your state laws online, which may give you a starting point.

Regards,

Paul

Brian Vickery
05-20-2002, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Bronson
Could somebody out there with law experience confirm or deny this? I've read that many states in the U.S. require the victim of an attack to leave (run away) at the first available moment. If they don't leave and continue a counter attack then in the eyes of the law they are now the aggressor.


Hi Bronson,

For the record, I am NOT a lawyer, so this is by no means legal advice of any kind.

Every state has different laws pertaining to the use of physical force for self defense. Here's a web site that will get you started researching your particular states statutes:

http://www.prairienet.org/~scruffy/f.htm

Some states, like Penn., require that you 'retreat to the wall' before you can justify using physical force on another person, while other states have no such requirement.

But in every state, if you accept a challenge and engage in 'combat by agreement' (AKA: a fight) you wave your right to using 'self defense' as justification for your use of physical force ...in other words, you're going to jail my friend!

Ask your sensei, he SHOULD know what the laws are in your area, and if he doesn't, do the research yourself! (...then provide him with a copy for his own education!)

Regards,

Brian H
05-20-2002, 09:20 AM
The retreat doctrine was pushed in some states about twenty years ago and some flaws became immediately apparent. In Massachusetts a woman was charged with a crime after shooting a man who entered her home and refused to leave when ordered to do so at gunpoint (exact details escape me, but he was up to no good). The trouble was that her children were asleep in bed upstairs and if he had used the escape route available to her, she would have left them with the Bad
Guy. The resulting uproar got the law changed in Mass. to allow that you never have to retreat if doing so places a third party in jeopardy. The opposite extreme in US law is the "Castle Doctrine" (as in my home is my castle) where you NEVER have to retreat in your home, lethal force optional. As a general rule in US courts if you can safely retreat and defuse the situation, you should probably do so. However SAFE retreat is the issue, if my children are at risk, I WILL attack/counter attack at my earliest opportunity with as much overwhelming force as
possible (overwhelming being the objective anyway- not naked use of force), because in the worst case they have a spare parent.

Choku Tsuki
05-20-2002, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Bronson
I've read that many states in the U.S. require the victim of an attack to leave (run away) at the first available moment.

This and other legal matters were discussed in the last two issues of the Journal of Asian Martial Arts. I wish I could summarize them for you, but alas, I did not read them well enough to answer your question.

--Chuck

here's a link to the past issues:

http://www.goviamedia.com/journal/issues.html

cbrf4zr2
05-20-2002, 12:14 PM
If I wanted to run from an attacker I would have joined a track club, not taken up a martial art.

Brian Vickery
05-20-2002, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by cbrf4zr2
If I wanted to run from an attacker I would have joined a track club, not taken up a martial art.

Hello Edward,

....say that you are walking down the street, a guy approaches you, pulls a knife out, starts slashing it around screaming: "Satan requires your soul!" ...he's obviuosly not all there, probably on drugs, you can't reason with him, though you can sure try! ...are you telling me you're going to use you 'martail arts training' to handle this situation?!?! ...you have the opportunity to get out of there, but you'd rather go toe-to-toe wih this nut-case?!?! ...*LOL*...you're crazier than he is if you do!!!

...train hard my friend, you're going to need it!

Regards,

cbrf4zr2
05-20-2002, 12:38 PM
Brian....

Shhhhh.....that's me screaming.

nmarques
05-20-2002, 01:09 PM
Depending on the circunstance, I would personally stay, like, lets say I was there with my girlfriend or family while some wild dude attacked us with a knife... Well they could run, I would stay to give them the edge they needed to get the hell outta there... The most important I dont think it is the point of the knife, but who has the knife!... A good knife with some combat technique in how to use it, sorry but that is a worthy opponent, hitting the backpeddal and fleeing that is something that I would ponder, if I detected somehow the guy knew how to use it, but someone like a average junkie or cheap pick-pocketeer, I dont think I would. Like always it depends a lot on the circunstance and in "your/whoever" cold blood to figure out what is really happening. Like someone used to say "I dont run off like a scared dog, I run off like a wolf so I can fight the battle some other day". Guns are amusing, once in the past we're talking about movies and my former kickboxing master just gave his humble opinion "For how faster and how good your technique might be, it is ALWAYS faster to pull the trigger".

In a fast way, in presence of people who could not defend themselfs, I would stick around and face it so they could flee, then time would say if I would flee or face it to whatever end it might be. Alone, if I suspected it was someone with weapons training, and that is easy to see depending on wich kind of knife and how it is handled, well, flee could be a nice choise, and probably would end up in the dilema between a wild pig and a cheetah...

The wild pig runs as much as he can, when he realizes that he is tired and cant run more, he stops, turns back and charges at the cheetah. Cheetah's always win this classic battle.

If the guy was the sort of junkie I am used to see in holland or portugal, or the cheap criminal, that would be a big mistake for him. (or maybe for me :disgust: ).

SeiserL
05-20-2002, 05:14 PM
"Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally. Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with them. Never chase after opponents. Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it."

O'Sensei Morihei Ueshiba
The Art of Peace (John Stevens)

Brian Vickery
05-21-2002, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by SeiserL
"Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally. Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with them. Never chase after opponents. Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it."

O'Sensei Morihei Ueshiba
The Art of Peace (John Stevens)

...I believe that was General George Custer's last quote also!

George S. Ledyard
05-21-2002, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by akiy

I've heard the concept of moving backwards during randori to be nearly an anathema in aikido circles as it "draws your ukes towards you like a funnel," but it seemed to work OK for him during the randori if I saw it correctly. I believe Georde Ledyard was commenting on how if you go backwards then run a "J" or "hook" pattern off to the side, you'll very often "line up" all of the uke that you have, making them much easier to throw one at a time.

Of course, my last attempt at randori (with five attackers) was pretty hopeless and had my instructor commenting on how I (as well as others) needed more work on our randori, so you'll have to take my thoughts with a grain or two of salt...

-- Jun
Let me say that I apologize for promoting our own event but it seems relevant to the discussion. We have a Four Day Randori Intensive every year on Labor day weekend. We have been doing this kind of thing for 13 years and have worked out a very systematic approach to teaching randori. The event is open to anyone with solid ukemi skills which would probably be about third kyu or higher. If anyone wants to attend just contact me. I am sure we can put you up so don't worry about that.

I say this because I contsntly hear comments from folks about their randori skills yet very few people actually teach randori. We have worked out what I think is a very good program which isolates the various movement principles of randori and also has some interesting exercies to make them clear but not many people have actually been able to see the program. It isn't usually possible to teach randori when I get invited to teach a seminar due to space limitations and wide experience levels. I did get a chance to do a very abbreviated portion of it for Kimberly Richardson Sensei's folks (as my contribution to helping her husband, Dan, get ready for San Dan). They seemed to find it helpful.

Anyway, I would welcome anyone who wishes to work on this aspect of their Aikido. We will practice about seven hours per day and the limit is fourteen students so it is a very small group so you get maximum attention. My e-mail is: aikigeorge@aikieast.com.

Chuck Clark
05-21-2002, 10:24 AM
George,

We're just getting ready to start our annual Shochugeiko (hot weather training) tomorrow. Five days of 6 - 8 hours of training per day at the Jiyushinkan in Tempe, Arizona.

This year our focus is on taninsu dori (multiple attackers). We also have a very well developed method of teaching the principles and strategy of this practice.

Wish you were here (and vice versa).

Regards,

Brian H
05-21-2002, 10:31 AM
Hello Edward,

....say that you are walking down the street, a guy approaches you, pulls a knife out, starts slashing it around screaming: "Satan requires your soul!" ...he's obviuosly not all there, probably on drugs, you can't reason with him, though you can sure try! ...are you telling me you're going to use you 'martail arts training' to handle this situation?!?! ...you have the opportunity to get out of there, but you'd rather go toe-to-toe wih this nut-case?!?! ...*LOL*...you're crazier than he is if you do!!!

...train hard my friend, you're going to need it!


Regards, [/B][/QUOTE]

OK, instead enter into hamni, draw pistol and place front sight on Mr. "Coo-Coo for Coco puffs". Give loud and clear verbal commands for him to drop weapon and lay on ground. If he fails to comply AND moves toward you or a third party in a threatening manner, fire into center of mass until hostile action has ceased.

Sic Semper Tyrannis

akiy
05-21-2002, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by George S. Ledyard
We have a Four Day Randori Intensive every year on Labor day weekend. We have been doing this kind of thing for 13 years and have worked out a very systematic approach to teaching randori.
Drool...
Originally posted by Chuck Clark
We're just getting ready to start our annual Shochugeiko (hot weather training) tomorrow. Five days of 6 - 8 hours of training per day at the Jiyushinkan in Tempe, Arizona.
Drool, again...

Some day, I'll make it out to Seattle, George. And also, some day, I'll make it back to your Shochugeiko, Chuck...

-- Jun

Brian Vickery
05-21-2002, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by BRIAN H

OK, instead enter into hamni, draw pistol and place front sight on Mr. "Coo-Coo for Coco puffs"....

Hi Brian,

...now this is the best response so far! When faced with a weapon, stay out of that weapon's effective range & deploy a superior weapon!

Bravo!

Krzysiek
05-21-2002, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Brian Vickery


Hi Brian,

...now this is the best response so far! When faced with a weapon, stay out of that weapon's effective range & deploy a superior weapon!

Bravo!

That's why I always carry a grenade with me... :D

I think I would be one of the dilusional Aikidoist since my answer to the knife-wielding maniac would be Aikido: run or deal with him/her without killing or permanent damage. Self and friends before attacker. BTW: I've been in situations like this... it's still worth it to me. :)

Jim ashby
05-21-2002, 01:20 PM
Run if you can. Getting stabbed hurts. Trust me.
Have fun.

Erik
05-21-2002, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Jim ashby
Run if you can. Getting stabbed hurts. Trust me.
Have fun.

You know, both times I've had a sharp object enter me: once a piece of glass, which was a stupid move with garbage and the other a knife which was a stupid dojo trick, I didn't feel a thing. No pain at all other than the realization that something had just gone very wrong.

I suppose having it stuck in my ribs might lead to a different experience.

Brian Vickery
05-21-2002, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Erik


You know, both times I've had a sharp object enter me: once a piece of glass, which was a stupid move with garbage and the other a knife which was a stupid dojo trick, I didn't feel a thing. No pain at all other than the realization that something had just gone very wrong.


Hi Erik,

While I was training in Colorado last month, Peyton Quinn talked about the 4 knife attacks he was involved in, in which he got cut in all of them. 3 of them he didn't even see the knife and didn't realize until after it was over that he got cut ...no pain, just lots of blood. (The 4th he saw the knife coming & knew that he got cut.)

...so he had the same experience as you had getting cut! Strange deal!

Regards,

Krzysiek
05-21-2002, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Jim ashby
Run if you can. Getting stabbed hurts. Trust me.
Have fun.

I definately agree.

:freaky:

Might not hurt when it happends but I hate having to wait to heal.

I also think pulling a gun hurts and leaving someone unable to walk or see hurts. Anyway.

Back to the thread topic:

In fencing this run or not run thing is also very important. Since running is not an option (if you go off the end of the strip you loose a point) a retreat is always tactical. You speed up so your opponent follows, slow down so they think they're close enough to attack, speed up to make sure their attack doesn't reach and score because they've over-reached and can't defend. It works _great_ on anybody as long as you can pull it off.

The key in pulling it off is footwork: if you slip anywhere you loose the maneuver and your opponent is going to roll over you... I think this is the same problem in running from an opponent. You need to know: how sharp a turn can you make? how fast can you stop? fast can you run? How decisively can you turn around and depart.... it's not something you practice in the dojo and it does take skill.

--Krzysiek

Jim ashby
05-22-2002, 02:48 AM
My experience was unusual for the UK, I was actually armed at the time of the attack. I was not as aware as I should have been (or as aware as I am now, all the time) and I too didn't see the knife. I originally thought I'd blocked an uppercut to my stomach and, after the attacker was no longer willing/able to continue the encounter, I looked at my left arm where the knife was still stuck. Damn it hurt!!! Still does on cold/damp days, I also lost some fine motor skills and feeling in my fingers. Like I said, run if you can.
Have fun.

George S. Ledyard
05-23-2002, 04:12 AM
Originally posted by Chuck Clark
George,

We're just getting ready to start our annual Shochugeiko (hot weather training) tomorrow. Five days of 6 - 8 hours of training per day at the Jiyushinkan in Tempe, Arizona.

This year our focus is on taninsu dori (multiple attackers). We also have a very well developed method of teaching the principles and strategy of this practice.

Wish you were here (and vice versa).

Regards,
So much training, so little time! I would love to come down to play sometime! This year is already full though. I've been working huge amounts of part time security work just to cover the traiing I'm doing this year. Need to clear the Expo, Boulder Camp, etc. off the credit card before I even think of another trip to make.

We did just purchase a digital camcorder so that we can put some of the stuff we've worked out onto video. That would make it a lot more accessible than it being just for the folks who visit us directly.