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Carsten Möllering
09-03-2010, 03:41 AM
(Referring to the ai hanmi tenchi nage thread few day ago.) (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=263859#post263859)

Finally found a clip of what we call "kubi nage":

Please watch the practioner on the right from 0:55 on. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xENPp9KdAM)

Do you know and do this technique?

Carsten

James Edwards
09-03-2010, 06:18 AM
The head throw? Yea, we've come across it but I think it's seldom practiced since it can be quite dangerous if the students don't know what they're doing.

Marc Abrams
09-03-2010, 07:43 AM
The head throw is dangerous and very effective for that reason. The punch "throw" before that was silly in that nobody I know would leave a straight arm out there after throwing a punch. I call that the "night of the living dead uke practice."

Marc Abrams

WilliB
09-03-2010, 08:47 AM
(Referring to the ai hanmi tenchi nage thread few day ago.) (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=263859#post263859)

Finally found a clip of what we call "kubi nage":

Please watch the practioner on the right from 0:55 on. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xENPp9KdAM)

Do you know and do this technique?

Carsten

I have seen it, in particular at the AKI place in Yokohama. It is not part the regular schedule in my dojo; occasionally they something like that, but in a very mellowed down version.

I havent heard a particular name for it; what we call kubinage is something else. The name of course makes sense for this too.

Shannon Frye
09-03-2010, 10:39 AM
I've come across 3 different variations, all of which are called Kubi- nage. 2 involve nage facing the same direction as uke (as in the video). The 3rd is more of a 'head twist' while facing uke. But these have all been in juijitsu or judo settings.

Adam Huss
09-03-2010, 12:51 PM
I've always called that kubinage as well. I've heard other terms for it, but can't recall what they are as I don't use them regularly.

The technique a couple after that we call kubishime...but we also use kubishime for an attack. Gotta love those generic names!

Adam Huss
09-03-2010, 12:52 PM
...its not something that's in our actual testing curriculum though, but so are a lot of things we are taught.

WilliB
09-04-2010, 04:38 AM
I've always called that kubinage as well. I've heard other terms for it, but can't recall what they are as I don't use them regularly.

The technique a couple after that we call kubishime...but we also use kubishime for an attack. Gotta love those generic names!

Kubishime means strangling, so that is another vague term.

Carsten Möllering
09-04-2010, 06:26 AM
The technique a couple after that we call kubishime...but we also use kubishime for an attack.
Yes.
"Ushiro katate dori kubi shime" is one of the "regular" attacks in our aikido.
And exactly the same form is also the way of doing irimi nage in tanto dori, jodori, jonage and tachi dori.

Michael Varin
09-04-2010, 11:17 PM
Gotta love those generic names!
I come from an Iwama background... you should see how many things we call kokyu nage.

For instance, all of the above mentioned throws :)

Lan Powers
09-07-2010, 04:14 PM
Our term for the throw in question has always been Men-nage.
Men=head, nage, (of course) =throw
I have always liked all the various names for techniques...it is interesting to hear all the different variations.
HEY! I know that throw!! :)

Adam Huss
09-07-2010, 04:46 PM
Here is an example of a form of kubinage...please skip to around 1:20 in clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySOix7gzx1A

Chris Farnham
09-07-2010, 06:33 PM
I come from an Iwama background... you should see how many things we call kokyu nage.

For instance, all of the above mentioned throws :)

While I don't really come from an Iwama background, I have practiced in Iwama a few times, and I am pretty sure that I have heard the "Head Throw" referred to as kubinage by people in Iwama , but I could be wrong...but I also noticed that there is a whole series of Kokyu nage techniques that vary widely. I believe that Inagaki Sensei likes to cover them all together as a single unit...or at least he was doing it that way one of the times I stayed there.

Aikilove
09-07-2010, 07:31 PM
I'm certainly from an Iwama background and I've always referred to it as kubinage.

Saito shows a couple of them at hombudojo just month after the founders death:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh8P1N9GKUQ

first around 0:20 and then dissect it at 0:50 and onward.

/J

WilliB
09-08-2010, 01:55 AM
Our term for the throw in question has always been Men-nage.
Men=head, nage, (of course) =throw
I have always liked all the various names for techniques...it is interesting to hear all the different variations.
HEY! I know that throw!! :)

Quibble: "Men" does not mean head, it means front side or surface.
I have never heard of men-nage, but of course there are all sorts of names floating out there.

Michael Varin
09-08-2010, 02:41 AM
Jakob,

Great video of Saito. I'd never seen that footage before. Thanks for posting it.

The throw at 0:20 looks like a kaiten nage to me. The latter ones I remember being called kokyu nage, but they may well be called kubi nage. Those things do change over the years, and of course, memories vary.

Carsten Möllering
09-08-2010, 03:18 AM
... of course there are all sorts of names floating out there.
Yes, that's true.

But it's kind of interesting, to notice that those names are not random but follow systems.

So there are certain styles or also certain lines of tradition within a style, which use certain names.

You have the wide range from calling "nearly every technique" kokyu nage in ki-aikido (at least the line of Yoshigasaki which is representative here in Germany) to naming the same technique in different ways with every form of attack in koryu yawara.
This is not only about names, but it shows the underlying understanding.

Or you can discuss whether rokyo (Saito Sensei) is a own technique following own principles or whether it is a certain form of nikyo ura (some aikikai teachers). The name isn't just a name, but helps to understand what is done in this waza.

Or see the discussions about ikkajo / ikkyo and kokyu ho / kokyu dosa / aiki age in this forum.

And so on.

Like always in life the names and the nomenclature, wich shows the system of the techniques, leads to a certain understanding of what is named.

It's not worth to quarrel and struggle but it's worth understanding, I think.

Carsten

Don_Modesto
09-08-2010, 07:47 AM
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Lan Powers
09-08-2010, 03:35 PM
Quibble: "Men" does not mean head, it means front side or surface.
I have never heard of men-nage, but of course there are all sorts of names floating out there.

Huh,
That means I am interpreting shomenuchi wrong as well then..
( I don't doubt that it is so, just didn't know)
Shomen uchi-uchi=strike, Men= head (I thought) and Sho= front
(In this context)
Strike to the front side of the head
I wonder what the literal translation is?:confused:

So, "strike to the front-side" for shomenuchi?
That would explain the confusion on the term for the head throw also.
Thanks!

WilliB
09-08-2010, 11:57 PM
Huh,
That means I am interpreting shomenuchi wrong as well then..
( I don't doubt that it is so, just didn't know)
Shomen uchi-uchi=strike, Men= head (I thought) and Sho= front
(In this context)
Strike to the front side of the head
I wonder what the literal translation is?:confused:

So, "strike to the front-side" for shomenuchi?
That would explain the confusion on the term for the head throw also.
Thanks!

Yes. "Shoumen" would literally mean "front surface". (And "yokoumen" diagonal surface.) There is no literal "head" in there.

Just to muddle the waters more, if you use a different Kanji, then "men" means cotton...

niall
09-09-2010, 11:34 PM
The primary meaning of men 面 is face and by extension mask (as used in noh or kendo, for example).

niall
09-10-2010, 02:30 AM
In other budo there doesn't seem to be any confusion about what kubi nage is - it's basically all the same technique. It's a throw from a controlling headlock. The judo version here is a slight variation (from tai otoshi with an extended leg); the sambo and BJJ variations are orthodox koshi waza (koshi nage in aikido).

judo http://www.judo-connexion.com/techniques/Nage-Waza/Koshi-Waza/kubi-nage.aspx

sumo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LHUSnqva5Q
(go straight to 4.30 or you'll get a headache from the camerawork)

sambo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbQREzCICcU

BJJ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a6ZjuqeCwo&p

WilliB
09-10-2010, 03:52 AM
In other budo there doesn't seem to be any confusion about what kubi nage is - it's basically all the same technique. It's a throw from a controlling headlock. The judo version here is a slight variation (from tai otoshi with an extended leg); the sambo and BJJ variations are orthodox koshi waza (koshi nage in aikido).

judo http://www.judo-connexion.com/techniques/Nage-Waza/Koshi-Waza/kubi-nage.aspx

sumo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LHUSnqva5Q
(go straight to 4.30 or you'll get a headache from the camerawork)

sambo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbQREzCICcU

BJJ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a6ZjuqeCwo&p

I can´t see the judo video, but the illustration looks like what I call koshi-guruma in judo.

niall
09-10-2010, 04:34 AM
You might need to install microsoft silverlight to watch the video. You're right Willi the difference between those two throws seems to be very subtle if it exists. It's probably just whether the emphasis is on the neck control or not.
.
http://judoforum.com/index.php?/topic/10864-kubi-nage/

http://judoforum.com/index.php?/topic/4164-whats-the-differance-between/

Stormcrow34
09-10-2010, 08:41 AM
[QUOTE=Niall Matthews;264341]In other budo there doesn't seem to be any confusion about what kubi nage is - it's basically all the same technique. It's a throw from a controlling headlock. The judo version here is a slight variation (from tai otoshi with an extended leg); the sambo and BJJ variations are orthodox koshi waza (koshi nage in aikido).

judo http://www.judo-connexion.com/techniques/Nage-Waza/Koshi-Waza/kubi-nage.aspx

In Yoseikan Budo, kubi nage is the Judo version described here. Basically it's tai otoshi from a headlock.

Flintstone
09-10-2010, 09:02 AM
In Yoseikan Budo, kubi nage is the Judo version described here. Basically it's tai otoshi from a headlock.
Just out of curiosity, how do you call in Yoseikan Budo the second throw in Taisabaki no Kata?

Stormcrow34
09-11-2010, 05:26 PM
Just out of curiosity, how do you call in Yoseikan Budo the second throw in Taisabaki no Kata?

Tai Sabaki no Kata has an uchi and soto form. The second tai sabaki is hiraki and I believe the soto throw is a sutemi called.....drawing a blank here. I think it's soto waki dori. But as I've said before, I'm just a student so please don't quote me on that.

Flintstone
09-12-2010, 03:39 AM
Tai Sabaki no Kata has an uchi and soto form. The second tai sabaki is hiraki and I believe the soto throw is a sutemi called.....drawing a blank here. I think it's soto waki dori. But as I've said before, I'm just a student so please don't quote me on that.
Yes, of course. I meant the uchi nagashi form. We call it Kubi Otoshi. You meant the soto hiraki movement, which name is Soto Waki Tori Sutemi.

Stormcrow34
09-13-2010, 08:57 AM
Yes, of course. I meant the uchi nagashi form. We call it Kubi Otoshi. You meant the soto hiraki movement, which name is Soto Waki Tori Sutemi.

Yes it's Kubi Otoshi here as well.

Junansei
12-08-2010, 01:35 PM
'We call the second technique in Tai Sabaki no Kata "Kubi daoshi han sutemi".

Basia Halliop
12-08-2010, 09:38 PM
I wouldn't remember the name, but I've been taught head throws much like the one in the original video occasionally and some people I train with will occasionally do them on me in jiuwaza... We do tend to do them a little bit more 'carefully' than some throws though and generally with more intermediate/advanced students....

It's not on any of the tests or anything like that... just one of those random techniques that comes up from time to time...

Dominic Toupin
01-13-2011, 04:58 PM
Both Mae Kubi Otoshi or Kubi Daoshi Han Sutemi are correct for the second throw in the Tai Sabaki No Kata. It's definetly an han sutemi technique.

The throw shown in the video is called Kubi Nage in Yoseikan Aikido and it's different from the Kubi nage in Judo.