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Gorgeous George
08-27-2010, 11:25 AM
Looking at my grading syllabus, I noticed that this technique is on it. I vaguely recall doing this technique - but not how it was done; trying to figure it out, it's quite mystifying.
I think you 'd have to take uke's hand (the one that's holding yours) with your free hand and do the 'earth' part, then with your now-free other hand, do the 'heaven' part. But what do I know?

I've searched YouTube for a video of it, but have come up short. Does anyone know of a video demonstration anywhere please?

Larry Feldman
08-27-2010, 01:18 PM
Slide in on the 'earth hand/grabbed' side. Then Step in with the 'heaven' hand.

Syles may vary - FWIW, swing the elbow on the heaven hand into uke's center and raise the hand. Then rotate thumb down on the heaven hand as you step through. Your finishing posture should be on balance as if you were considering taking a fowrad roll with the heaven hand - now pointed thumb down.

With this approach you will get an 'up' and 'down' motion from the heaven hand and avoid the typical error of simply pushing the uke back with the heaven hand.

If all else fails ask someone from oyur school!

Rayleen Dehmke
08-28-2010, 12:04 AM
USAF 5th kyu requirements video on youtube demonstrates that technique if I remember correctly.

WilliB
08-28-2010, 03:25 AM
Looking at my grading syllabus, I noticed that this technique is on it. I vaguely recall doing this technique - but not how it was done; trying to figure it out, it's quite mystifying.
I think you 'd have to take uke's hand (the one that's holding yours) with your free hand and do the 'earth' part, then with your now-free other hand, do the 'heaven' part. But what do I know?

I've searched YouTube for a video of it, but have come up short. Does anyone know of a video demonstration anywhere please?

You should find plenty videos on Youtube. In my style, we practise first the "chi" part with one hand, as a sumi-otoshi, i.e. dropping your partner into the corner where he is not supported. Then we addthe "ten" part.
But is this one of these techniques on which there is an endless number of variations and interpretations -- find out what your instructor likes.

senshincenter
08-28-2010, 04:43 PM
Here's one I have:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/tenchinage.html

d

Basia Halliop
08-28-2010, 09:44 PM
Are you sure it's not ryotetori tenchinage? I.e., with uke grabbing both wrists from the front?

If not, what organization and grade is it? I can't quite picture how you'd do tenchinage from katatetori without changing it into another technique altogether. I don't think I've ever seen it (unless I just didn't realize that what I was doing was considered tenchinage and not a different technique? That's possible.)

I think you 'd have to take uke's hand (the one that's holding yours) with your free hand and do the 'earth' part, then with your now-free other hand, do the 'heaven' part. But what do I know?

If I am picturing what you're saying right, then I've seen such a technique many times, but I don't recall what it's called. It wouldn't have occurred to me to consider it tenchinage without using both uke's arms, but I can see your reasoning.

I think you're going to have to do things the old-fashioned way and actually your Sensei or someone at your dojo :).

Carsten Möllering
08-29-2010, 03:22 AM
I think you 'd have to take uke's hand (the one that's holding yours) with your free hand and do the 'earth' part, then with your now-free other hand, do the 'heaven' part.
Yes.
Here it is from gyaku hanmi the way we do it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SFtUzeVXho)To do it from ai hanmi, you have to take ukes grabbing hand, free your own and continue just like in gyaku hanmi.
Only difference: You grab uke and lead him by this instead of being grabbed.

If I am picturing what you're saying right, then I've seen such a technique many times, but I don't recall what it's called. It wouldn't have occurred to me to consider it tenchinage without using both uke's arms, but I can see your reasoning.
Doing tenchi nage from gyuaku hanmi is quite "normal" to us. (aikikai in Germany, following Endo Seishiro/Christian Tissier) I think it's tested for 4th kyu.
We also do it from yokomen uchi nearly similar like shown here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta7yrtC2Zkk).
Or from kata dori and kata dori men uchi.

So doing it from ryote dori is just one out of many possibilities.
At least in our aikido.

Carsten

raul rodrigo
08-29-2010, 03:43 AM
From ai hanmi, it is more "normal" for us to be doing it from shomen-uchi instead of a hand grab, but yes, doing it the way that Carsten describes would be perfectly kosher, by the standards of our practice here.

WilliB
08-29-2010, 12:41 PM
(,,,)
We also do it from yokomen uchi nearly similar like shown here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta7yrtC2Zkk).
Or from kata dori and kata dori men uchi.

So doing it from ryote dori is just one out of many possibilities.
At least in our aikido.

Carsten

This one looks to me much more like what we call kubinage. Not much tenchi there.

Carsten Möllering
08-30-2010, 02:50 AM
This one looks to me much more like what we call kubinage. Not much tenchi there.
Kubi nage?
For kubi nage we stand in front of uke (a little bit like in koshi nage) have both hands in the neck=kubi (back of the neck) of uke and go directly down on our knees. It's a vertical movement with the neck of uke in the hands, leading ukes head down between our knees.
What is shown here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auw3aiOcbpI) is not called kubi nage in our aikido.

Well, what do you mean by saying "not much ten chi here"?
In this video tenchi nage is shown from 2:45 on. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2FcrcwRskQ)Can you please outline the difference?
And what style/shihan do you follow?

Anyway.
This form of yokomen uchi tenchi nage is kihon waza (basic form) in our aikido. (aikikai)
Carsten

WilliB
08-30-2010, 03:10 AM
Kubi nage?
Anyway.
This form of yokomen uchi tenchi nage is kihon waza (basic form) in our aikido. (aikikai)
Carsten

Not here. (Aikikai, Tokyo).
Guess your boss has a different idea.

Carsten Möllering
08-30-2010, 06:04 AM
Not here. (Aikikai, Tokyo).
Guess your boss has a different idea.
;)
We'v got no "bosses" in aikido. (I actually don't hav one at work. :) )We call them "shihan". And we have two of them.
One lives in Paris. The other one lives not so far away from you, in Saku/Nagano.
Some years ago he used to teach in a certain dojo in Shinjuku.:D

Well but to be honest, I think Endo Sensei wouldn't normally do tenchi nage from yokomen uchi.
This is more the way, Christian Tissier practices.

The idea of tenchi nage which I learnt and which I teach is, throwing the opponent by leading one side up (ten), one side down (chi). Be it from ryote dori, katate dori, yokomen uchi or kata dori.
So which idea of tenchi nage do you have then?

Carsten

WilliB
08-30-2010, 08:06 AM
;)
We'v got no "bosses" in aikido. (I actually don't hav one at work. :) )We call them "shihan". And we have two of them.
One lives in Paris. The other one lives not so far away from you, in Saku/Nagano.
Some years ago he used to teach in a certain dojo in Shinjuku.:D

Well but to be honest, I think Endo Sensei wouldn't normally do tenchi nage from yokomen uchi.
This is more the way, Christian Tissier practices.

The idea of tenchi nage which I learnt and which I teach is, throwing the opponent by leading one side up (ten), one side down (chi). Be it from ryote dori, katate dori, yokomen uchi or kata dori.
So which idea of tenchi nage do you have then?

Carsten

Ah, OK. I have heard about that confused Aikikai situation in Germany. I understand that there are even more Aikikai organizations there, all of them claiming to be the true disciples. Nothing against Tissier, I have seen his demonstrations and they look great.

Basically why we call Techninage here is the variation that starts with a sumiotoshi. Using your broad definition, arent most throws somehow Tenchinage? In that case, why bother with different names anyway... its all Tenchi. Certainly takes the stress of remembering names away :-)

Carsten Möllering
08-30-2010, 09:32 AM
Ah, OK. I have heard about that confused Aikikai situation in Germany. I don't think the situation ist "confused"?
There are several lines of tradition connected to hombu:
Asai sensei, The line of Yamaguchi (Endo & Tissier), there are students of Tamura Sensei, some of Tada Sensei, Nishio Sensei, Yamada Sensei.

I understand that there are even more Aikikai organizations there, Sure: All of them belong to the aikikai. Same thing as in some other countries I know.

... all of them claiming to be the true disciples.
"True" Disciples of whom or of what?
We are all doing aikido. And we practice together.
And we all belong to the "big familiy" of the aikikai.

Basically why we call Techninage here is the variation that starts with a sumiotoshi. Well, then: When doing sumi otoshi from yokomen uchi, how do you do it?
What is the difference to what is shown in the video of yokomen uchi tenchi nage?
How do you do tenchi nage from yokomen uchi or kata dori?
(Or don't you do this?)

Using your broad definition, arent most throws somehow Tenchinage?So please again: You only tell what is missing or wrong or "not much tenchi".
Please be so kind and give a definition of tenchi nage, which makes clearer, how you understand tenchi nage. And why this is not seen in the video, I posted.

In that case, why bother with different names anyway... Because naming the techniques can be part of better understanding them.

... its all Tenchi. Hm, you said there wouldn't be much tenchi in the example of yokomen uchi tenchi nage?

Certainly takes the stress of remembering names away
Well I didn't have stress when I had to learn the techniques when I started practicing. And over the years I found it very interesting and usefull to discuss the nomenclature of the different styles oder lines of tradition.

Naming the techniques leads to a clearer structure of kihon.

Carsten

WilliB
08-30-2010, 10:34 AM
Ah, cut down with merciless German logic and thoroughness.... every line disected, trisected and eliminated without mercy. Yessir!
Its been a long time since I left my homeland, and these heated Stammtisch debates make me almost feel nostalgic.

But sorry, Carsten dear friend, these days I prefer to step aside and let you charge ahead full steam. You win, I lose, and we are both happy. Bask in your glory. I guess that is more Aiki, too :-)

Have a good day and enjoy the feeling of superiority.

Carsten Möllering
08-31-2010, 02:13 AM
Ah, cut down with merciless German logic and thoroughness.... every line disected, trisected and eliminated without mercy. Yessir!
Its been a long time since I left my homeland, and these heated Stammtisch debates make me almost feel nostalgic.

But sorry, Carsten dear friend, these days I prefer to step aside and let you charge ahead full steam. You win, I lose, and we are both happy. Bask in your glory. I guess that is more Aiki, too :-)

Have a good day and enjoy the feeling of superiority.

Oouuuchhh.
Amazing: Won without fighting!

"Heated debate", "with full steam"? When? Who?

You stated the technique I teach as yokomen uchi tenchi nage is not tenchi nage because of "not much tenchi" in it. Is asked questions. You answered none of them.
Not one.

Hope your students get better of.
I explain what I teach. Don't you?
No questions and answers in your dojo?

And: You have an interesting view of Germany.

All together you seem to know a lot about aiki. I already admired that in the shihonage-threat.
But it seems to be a different understanding than what we teach: We use aiki to blend with our partner, for being able to guide him. - And to controll him aswell as oneself.
"You win - I loose" is not what I understand as aiki. Or what I learned or teach as being aiki.

Being gentle, being humble seems more the way of aiki to me.


Carsten