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AllanF
10-14-2010, 01:02 AM
This may be a little late but here is a reference from Kobayashi Yasuo Sensei's autobiography about those two meeting:

http://www.kobayashi-dojo.com/english/book/3_5/

Cheers...

"Part 5 Ueshiba Sensei and Mifune Sensei

One of my pleasantest memories from this period is of having a meal with O-Sensei and Judo’ Kyuzo Mifune Sensei. It was about 1958 or 59 at the house of Saburo Sugiyama, who was the president of Sugiyama Contruction, had a judo dojo, and was also a regent of the Aikikai. He invited both of these famous men, and both agreed to come. Through the discernment of both of these men, a strict yet calm atmosphere prevailed for those of us who had chosen our paths; we were all extremely appreciative and took turns serving them sake.

I don’t remember much about the discussion except that Mifune Sensei expressed the Judo philosophy “If pushed, pull'if pulled, push.” But O-Sensei commented after that, “If pulled, turn," summing up in a phrase containing a flash of brilliant insight, it seemed.

When I went to the Kodokan, I watched Mifune Sensei’s practice many times. He was a man of very short stature, but I observed him use the so-called “air throw” to throw people. It didn’ require strength; rather, timing was the essence, I felt. The conversation between Morihei Ueshiba Sensei and Kyuzo Mifune Sensei was historical and priceless; it is truly regrettable that there are no photographs remaining."

[Bold added for emphasis.]

For me this is very interesting as someone who practices taiji, there was a master called Hong Junsheng who is reported to have said 'there is only turning!' More than just a coincidence i think!

Shany
10-30-2010, 08:15 AM
"A glorification of one man will make the other insignificant"

Ueshiba was a simple man, loved martial arts and practices the way he saw man should, he never wanted people to glorify him or call him a god, his way was intended for everyone, therefor we all are capable of doing what ueshiba has done for him self.

he held no secret power but the power to understand and sharpen his martial moves. each man has his own speed of thought, ueshiba's speed of thought was faster than the normal man, because he put special dedication and concentration about it when he trained and meditated.

we, think slow, therefore react slow, hench ueshiba's simple encoded message: "When you posses nothing you posses everything".

change your speed of thought, friends.

George S. Ledyard
10-31-2010, 12:21 PM
The thing is I can't rationalize spending good money on a fee as well as traveling costs to go see someone without any credentials demonstrating "ancient lost techniques." Until there is someone teaching with some legitimate authority on the subject I will sit this one out. But I will read Ellis Amdur's book, he is someone I would be comfortable learning from.

That's one of the reasons these forums are of use. You share experience... You've heard the names of the folks sharing their internal power knowledge. You know the folks who are posting saying these guys are for real. I have trained with all of them. Each is excellent in his own right and I can pretty much guarantee that each can show you something valuable you don't know. So, I have very good credentials in Aikido. I say these guys have the goods, so unless you think I don't know what I am talking about, you can assume they've got something worth going out of your way for. Repeat that by the number of experienced folks posting here who have said the same thing.

Reading anyone's book will not do anything but give you a nice historical context to understand what this stuff is and where it came from. You have to get your hands on these guys, do their exercises, etc to get the benefit. Questioning whether they are worth the time, money, and effort might have been a legitimate question a few years ago when no none amongst our community of practitioners knew these guys, but now they are well known and very senior members of the Aikido community are training with some of them.

Sitting back being the "doubting Thomas" at this point is just falling behind the curve in what I think is one of the most significant things to happen in Aikido in many decades.

Nicholas Eschenbruch
10-31-2010, 03:37 PM
That's one of the reasons these forums are of use. You share experience... You've heard the names of the folks sharing their internal power knowledge. You know the folks who are posting saying these guys are for real. I have trained with all of them. Each is excellent in his own right and I can pretty much guarantee that each can show you something valuable you don't know. So, I have very good credentials in Aikido. I say these guys have the goods, so unless you think I don't know what I am talking about, you can assume they've got something worth going out of your way for. Repeat that by the number of experienced folks posting here who have said the same thing.

Reading anyone's book will not do anything but give you a nice historical context to understand what this stuff is and where it came from. You have to get your hands on these guys, do their exercises, etc to get the benefit. Questioning whether they are worth the time, money, and effort might have been a legitimate question a few years ago when no none amongst our community of practitioners knew these guys, but now they are well known and very senior members of the Aikido community are training with some of them.

Sitting back being the "doubting Thomas" at this point is just falling behind the curve in what I think is one of the most significant things to happen in Aikido in many decades.

Well, just to second this - I went because people like George Sensei said it was worth it, and it REALLY was ....

Michael Neal
10-31-2010, 08:33 PM
That's one of the reasons these forums are of use. You share experience... You've heard the names of the folks sharing their internal power knowledge. You know the folks who are posting saying these guys are for real. I have trained with all of them. Each is excellent in his own right and I can pretty much guarantee that each can show you something valuable you don't know. So, I have very good credentials in Aikido. I say these guys have the goods, so unless you think I don't know what I am talking about, you can assume they've got something worth going out of your way for. Repeat that by the number of experienced folks posting here who have said the same thing.

Reading anyone's book will not do anything but give you a nice historical context to understand what this stuff is and where it came from. You have to get your hands on these guys, do their exercises, etc to get the benefit. Questioning whether they are worth the time, money, and effort might have been a legitimate question a few years ago when no none amongst our community of practitioners knew these guys, but now they are well known and very senior members of the Aikido community are training with some of them.

Sitting back being the "doubting Thomas" at this point is just falling behind the curve in what I think is one of the most significant things to happen in Aikido in many decades.

I conceded it was worth giving a try, I will try to attend a seminar if it comes to my area. I am reading the book now and am enjoying it. Not sure how it would translate to Judo/BJJ but will keep an open mind since so many experienced people are endorsing it.

George S. Ledyard
10-31-2010, 09:00 PM
I conceded it was worth giving a try, I will try to attend a seminar if it comes to my area. I am reading the book now and am enjoying it. Not sure how it would translate to Judo/BJJ but will keep an open mind since so many experienced people are endorsing it.
If your real interest is in Judo . BJJ, Dan Harden might be the guy for you. His focus is no how to apply internal power skills freely in a mixed martial arts setting. Also, from the purely Aikido standpoint I have found that what he does and how he teaches it, requires less translation on my part to make it part of my Aikido. Probably because Dan's background was Daito Ryu, so his form is closer to Aikido to start with. Mike S and Akuzawa take a bit more work on someone part to figure out how what they show you might be applicable to your Aikido form. At least that's my experience. But if you get a chance to train with any of thee guys, it is more than worth any time or financial expenditure.

Michael Neal
11-01-2010, 08:22 AM
Even though I have not practiced Aikido in a long time I still have some kind of attachment to it. I use Aikido techniques from time to time in Judo with success so I never believed the "it takes 20 years to be effective" stuff. I only practiced for a year and a half.

But you do have to be able to generate a lot of power and I learned this mostly from Judo. Judo training in itself is a type of internal training with its array of training methods. Also weight training with a focus on full body exercises like dead lifts develops a lot of power as well, its not just the increase in strength but how it trains you to use your legs instead of muscling with your arms. So when you go to throw you automatically use the right kind of power.

I am certainly open to learning these other internal training exercises as well, anything that will better my abilities and help return some of the power back to traditional arts.

MM
11-01-2010, 08:54 AM
Even though I have not practiced Aikido in a long time I still have some kind of attachment to it. I use Aikido techniques from time to time in Judo with success so I never believed the "it takes 20 years to be effective" stuff. I only practiced for a year and a half.

But you do have to be able to generate a lot of power and I learned this mostly from Judo. Judo training in itself is a type of internal training with its array of training methods. Also weight training with a focus on full body exercises like dead lifts develops a lot of power as well, its not just the increase in strength but how it trains you to use your legs instead of muscling with your arms. So when you go to throw you automatically use the right kind of power.

I am certainly open to learning these other internal training exercises as well, anything that will better my abilities and help return some of the power back to traditional arts.

You are confused about the "internal training" being mentioned in this thread. Judo training is *not* the "internal training" that we are talking about. Nor is judo training the "internal training" that Ueshiba Morihei did/had.

The "power" that Ueshiba Morihei had/used is *not* the power generated from judo training, nor from weight training, nor from most other methods. Do the research on how many people with extensive judo/jujutsu backgrounds experienced the aiki men (Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo) and recorded that it was very different.

I would suggest rereading George's excellent posts #253 and #256. And then do some research ...

My opinion,
Mark

Michael Neal
11-01-2010, 09:49 AM
In the book as well as discussions I have read, internal training is developed in a variety of ways. It was mentioned in some instances being developed through physical exercises including simple things like farming. Of course that is not the entire spectrum that is being discussed but it is part of the equation. Physical exercises that develop specific applicable skills in martial arts fit within that. I acknowledge there is more to it than that which I why I am interested in the seminars.

jss
11-01-2010, 01:07 PM
Also, from the purely Aikido standpoint I have found that what he [Dan Harden] does and how he teaches it, requires less translation on my part to make it part of my Aikido. [...] Mike S and Akuzawa take a bit more work on someone part to figure out how what they show you might be applicable to your Aikido form.
Would you care to elaborate? I have been to seminars by Mike Sigman and Akuzawa, but not to one of Dan Harden's, so your comments has made me quite curious. :)
Is it the type of solo exercises? Or does he focus on unbalancing and throwing from attacks that are common to Aikido? Or...?

George S. Ledyard
11-01-2010, 01:54 PM
Would you care to elaborate? I have been to seminars by Mike Sigman and Akuzawa, but not to one of Dan Harden's, so your comments has made me quite curious. :)
Is it the type of solo exercises? Or does he focus on unbalancing and throwing from attacks that are common to Aikido? Or...?

No Dan is a bit more advanced than to want to do his work from Aikido style attacks. But the basic exercises are more easily translated in to what you already know. I am not saying don't train with the other guys... not at all. I just found that of the three, I felt I was able to put something directly in to my Aikido more quickly. But it's all good and if you can do one and not the other, it's still worth doing, for sure.

Budd
11-01-2010, 03:43 PM
No Dan is a bit more advanced than to want to do his work from Aikido style attacks. But the basic exercises are more easily translated in to what you already know. I am not saying don't train with the other guys... not at all. I just found that of the three, I felt I was able to put something directly in to my Aikido more quickly. But it's all good and if you can do one and not the other, it's still worth doing, for sure.

Well, this is something I'm curious about and have struggled with in my own practice . . how are you putting it into your Aikido more quickly one way versus another? My take has been that whichever way you go, you have to spend the time transforming how your body moves at a fundamental level before you really get the benefit(s). Otherwise, you're somewhat looking at it from a "technique" perspective, but in a lot of ways, that's really a placeholder so that you don't do it too incorrectly before you've actually trained your body to carry itself correctly in progressively more stressful situations.

I guess what I'm reacting to pretty strongly is the idea that "this stuff" (IS, IP, etc.) can be looked at in any way as any kind of "technique" that is an adjunct to aikido (or any martial art, really).

jss
11-01-2010, 05:44 PM
But the basic exercises are more easily translated in to what you already know. [...] I just found that of the three, I felt I was able to put something directly in to my Aikido more quickly.
That comment makes me a bit nervous. If IS is a big deal, something special, a fundamentally different way of moving, etc. it should by definition be not something that you can easily add to your Aikido.
If, however, it *is* easy to integrate into your Aikdio, then it's not something fundamental, but just a new set of tricks to add to your bag of trickery after adding some stuff from Systema, Escrima, whatever.

Randall Lim
11-01-2010, 07:09 PM
I must agree with "Gorgeous George."

He was a fervent Omoto Kyo practioner who devoted his whole life to the spirit. We cannot pretend that a large portion of his power did not come from the highly spiritual life he led that was rooted in Shinto, esoteric Buddhist practices, martial arts, and asceticism. He did what many of us cannot do: He faced the spiritual and Belived, and I think that is what made of him the great man that we look up to. I don't think that we must imitate every aspect of his life; we should instead seek to isolate the core values which he lived by and emulate those through our own unique methods. Aikido must be done with total belief in the power of Ki. Nature must be revered and taken care of (as in Shinto.) The mind must be cultivated and the mindbodyspirit must face aloneness, simplicity, fasting, and meditation. You cannot expect to reach enlightenment by just going to a dojo on the weekends. It must be made the priority. But like Morihei Ueshiba, you can fast, pray, and wander your whole life and not reach enlightenment if you do not seek it with a purpose beyond self. Morihei created Aikido to spread Love to a world that was rapidly degenerating into the jaws of materialism, ignorance, and hatred. So too we cannot seek Morihei's power without the intention of using it to continue his struggle. If an Aikdoka truly surrendered to his or her quest, then, they would become like Morihei.

- Johann

Very well said! Hits the nail in the head! This should be every Aikidoka's goal!!

phitruong
11-01-2010, 08:02 PM
Very well said! Hits the nail in the head! This should be every Aikidoka's goal!!

not mine. there two kinds of strength: spirit/mind/will and physical. don't confuse the two. as far as spirit/mind/will goes, i would rather follow folks like Gandi or Mother Teresa and so on. Physical, i might pay attention to Ueshiba, and i stressed the word "might".

George S. Ledyard
11-02-2010, 02:14 AM
Well, this is something I'm curious about and have struggled with in my own practice . . how are you putting it into your Aikido more quickly one way versus another? My take has been that whichever way you go, you have to spend the time transforming how your body moves at a fundamental level before you really get the benefit(s). Otherwise, you're somewhat looking at it from a "technique" perspective, but in a lot of ways, that's really a placeholder so that you don't do it too incorrectly before you've actually trained your body to carry itself correctly in progressively more stressful situations.

I guess what I'm reacting to pretty strongly is the idea that "this stuff" (IS, IP, etc.) can be looked at in any way as any kind of "technique" that is an adjunct to aikido (or any martial art, really).

I am not saying, as I mentioned in another post, that dong this is easy. Some of the changes are simple and can happen fairly rapidly, at least enough to improve your Aikido fairly dramatically and immediately. But really mastering it the way Dan and Mike have... well, that's another story.

I only said that Dan's stuff seemed easier to put into my Aikido directly because I could directly see my Aikido techniques in the exercises he did. I am assuming that some of these came from Daito Ryu, since that is his background and form wise that isn't very far from Aikido form at all.

Mike moves like a Chinese martial artist. The small amount of stuff he was able to show us was the same set of principles as Dan's but the outer form was enough different that I would have had to do more work to relate it directly to my Aikido. Perhaps others would not find it so... this was just my own experience.

MM
11-02-2010, 07:34 AM
I am not saying, as I mentioned in another post, that dong this is easy. Some of the changes are simple and can happen fairly rapidly, at least enough to improve your Aikido fairly dramatically and immediately. But really mastering it the way Dan and Mike have... well, that's another story.

I only said that Dan's stuff seemed easier to put into my Aikido directly because I could directly see my Aikido techniques in the exercises he did. I am assuming that some of these came from Daito Ryu, since that is his background and form wise that isn't very far from Aikido form at all.

Mike moves like a Chinese martial artist. The small amount of stuff he was able to show us was the same set of principles as Dan's but the outer form was enough different that I would have had to do more work to relate it directly to my Aikido. Perhaps others would not find it so... this was just my own experience.

I agree.

Budd
11-02-2010, 09:01 AM
Interesting - are there any examples you are comfortable sharing? (I get how some of the stuff needs to be hush hush) Anything really - from simple changes that can happen fairly rapidly to improve your Aikido dramatically and immediately . . to what you think might be realistically required to surpass the level of Mike or Dan (I think both have said on more than one occasion that they aren't the end all be all to "this stuff")?

I have worked with both as well, but it's been long enough since I saw Dan, and I didn't really know anything, then (as opposed to a little bit, now), plus it was such a short visit at the time, I am not comfortable really comparing what one does versus the other. I think both do emphasize a great deal towards changing the body as being the prerequisite to the goods. My initial efforts to put "this stuff" into my aikido made it difficult to balance, so I do tip my hats to those investing in the longterm balance of integrating into an established practice.

George S. Ledyard
11-02-2010, 10:56 AM
Interesting - are there any examples you are comfortable sharing? (I get how some of the stuff needs to be hush hush) Anything really - from simple changes that can happen fairly rapidly to improve your Aikido dramatically and immediately . . to what you think might be realistically required to surpass the level of Mike or Dan (I think both have said on more than one occasion that they aren't the end all be all to "this stuff")?

I have worked with both as well, but it's been long enough since I saw Dan, and I didn't really know anything, then (as opposed to a little bit, now), plus it was such a short visit at the time, I am not comfortable really comparing what one does versus the other. I think both do emphasize a great deal towards changing the body as being the prerequisite to the goods. My initial efforts to put "this stuff" into my aikido made it difficult to balance, so I do tip my hats to those investing in the long term balance of integrating into an established practice.

Budd, I couldn't even begin to attempt to describe this stuff verbally. And as I am only a newbie at any of this work, it would be tremendously presumptuous to show a video. I'll leave that up to Dan and Mike if they feel like it... Akuzawa, of course, has quite a lot on YouTube. And for folks who don't make connections easily, which is not a few, in my experience, Gleason Sensei is pre-digesting this stuff and incorporating it in to his Aikido at light speed. So going to some seminars with him may be the fastest way for Aikido folks to get some quick results. He's already done a lot of the brain work for you.

Budd
11-02-2010, 12:18 PM
Makes sense and I definitely appreciate the comments.

Jim Sorrentino
11-02-2010, 01:23 PM
Hello Budd and Michael (and All),
I've seen Jimmy at two Mike Sigman seminars, but I would be surprised if he pitched himself as a judge of "who's got the internal goods".

[snip]

But how "this stuff" is going to be incorporated (or ignored) in mainstream martial arts going forward into the long term, is gonna be a fun thing to watch, methinks. Whether or not someone's rank in a martial art ever actually means they have applicable skill in this kind of unusual strength . . we'll see.
I agree with Budd on both points: I do not present myself as a judge of "who's got it", and it will be fascinating to see how people incorporate "it" into aikido. Actually, it already is fascinating.

Michael, based on my own experience, I can certainly recommend that you see Minoru Akuzawa and Mike Sigman. As for Dan Harden, I haven't seen him, but George Ledyard and Bill Gleason have gone on record as liking what he's doing, and they both know more than me --- so based on their experience, if you have the opportunity to see Dan, you should.

I also [shameless plug] strongly recommend Toby Threadgill, who, in my opinion, presents an approach to "it" that is very accessible for aikidoka and those who are aiki-curious.

I hope this is helpful!

Sincerely,

Jim

Michael Neal
11-03-2010, 12:34 PM
thanks Jim, I will certainly try to go to some of these seminars

Allen Beebe
11-03-2010, 02:58 PM
Just a note of unsolicited recognition:

Did anyone notice that George Ledyard (an individual with plenty of diverse martial experience in his own right, along with all of the organizational Aikido "bells and whistles") has, one way or another, either had contact with all of the aforementioned "go see" individuals mentioned or hosted them in one capacity or another in his dojo?

Clearly, here is a guy, who while helping himself to learn and improve, is leading his dojo and perhaps a larger Aikido community, by example. It seems to me he has what a lot of other people value (rank, dojo, reputation, tradition, etc.) and instead of "safe-guarding" with insularity he is following the examples of his fore bearers by continuously exploring and exposing himself and his students to new input.

While some may interpret this "looking outwards" as a sign of weakness or lacking, I see it as evidence of self-confidence, self-assuredness, and the strength and determination to do what it takes to achieve one's goals.

George, I respect and applaud your efforts and example.

End of unsolicited recognition!

(Sorry if this is choppy, I am writing in between many tasks.)

tarik
11-03-2010, 03:03 PM
While some may interpret this "looking outwards" as a sign of weakness or lacking, I see it as evidence of self-confidence, self-assuredness, and the strength and determination to do what it takes to achieve one's goals.

George, I respect and applaud your efforts and example.

Agreed.

Russ Q
11-03-2010, 04:03 PM
While some may interpret this "looking outwards" as a sign of weakness or lacking, I see it as evidence of self-confidence, self-assuredness, and the strength and determination to do what it takes to achieve one's goals.

George, I respect and applaud your efforts and example.

I'm in with that!

Michael Neal
11-04-2010, 09:11 AM
I finally got to finish the book "Hidden in Plain Sight." I have determined I do not want to be O'Sensei, he was absolutely nuts. But maybe some of the internal training would be good minus the channeling of spirits and such.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-04-2010, 09:44 AM
... maybe some of the internal training would be good minus the channeling of spirits and such.

But the channeling is the best part. Imagine you could channel Kimura no kami and be possesed by him.

Michael Neal
11-04-2010, 09:50 AM
no thanks

Nicholas Eschenbruch
11-04-2010, 11:56 AM
But the channeling is the best part. Imagine you could channel Kimura no kami and be possesed by him.

ROFL....

I would not mind Helio no Kami, and then work out the aikido by myself, I sort of got used to that by now...

mathewjgano
11-04-2010, 12:17 PM
I have determined I do not want to be O'Sensei...

It's probably for the best to remain as yourself.:p

phitruong
11-04-2010, 12:52 PM
But the channeling is the best part. Imagine you could channel Kimura no kami and be possesed by him.

preferred Mifune no carmi meself :D

Michael Neal
11-04-2010, 02:47 PM
I prefer No Kami at all :)

Janet Rosen
11-04-2010, 03:00 PM
I've been called a lousy pinko kami but that probably doesn't count & it hasn't done s*** for my internal skills :-)

dps
11-04-2010, 03:38 PM
I've been called a lousy pinko kami but that probably doesn't count & it hasn't done s*** for my internal skills :-)

Were you wearing a pink gi?

dps:)

Janet Rosen
11-04-2010, 04:44 PM
Were you wearing a pink gi?

dps:)

I wish my budget could include one of those!!!!

Rob Watson
11-04-2010, 04:44 PM
I've been called a lousy pinko kami but that probably doesn't count & it hasn't done s*** for my internal skills :-)

Honestly, has anyone ever met a pinko kami that wasn't lousy?

Benjamin Mehner
11-07-2010, 03:54 PM
I've been called a lousy pinko kami but that probably doesn't count & it hasn't done s*** for my internal skills :-)

I refer to myself as card carrying pinko kami scum.

Budd
11-07-2010, 07:13 PM
So to bring it back on topic - how do your kaminess beliefs allow you to manifest Ueshiba's power?