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Buck
08-13-2010, 08:58 AM
It was mentioned in another thread, (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=262934&postcount=37) that LEOs and prison guards use Aikido effectively. There is good reason for it, as we see in this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fRv--C_vao&feature=player_embedded#!)
This is no way to detain anyone.

Too bad the rank amateur security guard didn't have proper training, inclusive is Aikido training, to handle the situation better, it would have really helped.

Buck
08-13-2010, 09:11 AM
Here is another version of the same situation with some background commentary on the situation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC48VxorshY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC48VxorshY&feature=related).

Hellis
08-13-2010, 09:18 AM
Bad situation and approach, in the UK I believe that no action is taken against shoplifters if the amount is valued at less than £80.
Those guards could certainly do with some ma training.

Henry Ellis
http://kenshiroabbe.blogspot.com/

jss
08-13-2010, 10:32 AM
I don't think this is about aikido or not aikido. It's about a security guard lacking the proper tools for his job. A choke hold is not the proper way to detain someone.

p.s.: Ignoring several issues here about the right to detain someone, etc.

RED
08-13-2010, 11:22 AM
I don't think this is about aikido or not aikido. It's about a security guard lacking the proper tools for his job. A choke hold is not the proper way to detain someone.

p.s.: Ignoring several issues here about the right to detain someone, etc.

Chokes are potentially deadly actually. If some one breaks your wind-pipe, even by accident, you have about 10 minutes before your brain starts to die. Most ambulances take a little more than that depending on your location in proximity to a hospital.
A strangle makes more sense. Chokes are made to cut off the air flow(which can accidentally crush the wind pipes.), while strangles allow the attacker to continue to breath, it just pinches the blood vessels in the neck, temporarily making the person VERY light headed and easy to handle.
Aikido incorporates "some" strangle submissions, but the art doesn't go in a great depth with it. Either because Aikido focuses on other things, or a strangle just isn't that in depth of a technique...which ever.

Choke hold are the devil :(

Buck
08-13-2010, 11:45 AM
I don't think this is about aikido or not aikido. It's about a security guard lacking the proper tools for his job. A choke hold is not the proper way to detain someone.

p.s.: Ignoring several issues here about the right to detain someone, etc.

I see it differently, here you have a security guard using a specific type of choke hold in a position and manner indicative to sport fighting as a means of restraint. It is clear then it was something that was taught to him, something he learned. He has to go through training at the security company, such companies are concerned with liability issues and provide training. Or he learned that hold somewhere else that teach such moves. Due to that hold he displayed, he decided to use it at that situation as a tool to solve a situation the what he conceived as the solution, thinking it was the best way to restrain a person. So he had a proper tool and employed it effectively, as that hold was working, it choked the person and restrained him.

In contrast, with second security personnel, using principles indicative to Aikido. Which security personnel will be hit with the law suit?

If the first security personnel used Aikido tools, I doubt this would be an issue at all. :)

Flintstone
08-13-2010, 12:05 PM
Aikido incorporates "some" strangle submissions, but the art doesn't go in a great depth with it. Either because Aikido focuses on other things, or a strangle just isn't that in depth of a technique...which ever.
We do go in a great depth with them. And strangle just is that indepth of a technique. En fin... pa qué.

Rob Watson
08-13-2010, 12:07 PM
It was mentioned in another thread, (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=262934&postcount=37) that LEOs and prison guards use Aikido effectively. There is good reason for it, as we see in this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fRv--C_vao&feature=player_embedded#%21)
This is no way to detain anyone.

Too bad the rank amateur security guard didn't have proper training, inclusive is Aikido training, to handle the situation better, it would have really helped.

Why would you out LEO, prison guard and 'rank amateur' security guard into the same bag?

Around these parts security guards are not to detain or even lay hands on unless there is risk of injury. Their primary role is to observe and report. All that restraint stuff is for the pros (a.k.a. LEO). Even security guards certified with baton, taser, sprays and firearms have very restricted and limited roles that do not overlap much with LEOs.

Being trained on how to communicate with deaf or non-english speakers works better in these situations than any ma techniques.

Rob Watson
08-13-2010, 12:28 PM
Around these parts


www.bsis.ca.gov/forms_pubs/poa.pdf

I'm sure there is a high degree of variation in the roles of security guards but 'reasonable force' is pretty standard and used in effecting an arrest (security guards and 'regular folk' can do this).

If the 'suspect' does not know they are being arrested can they resist arrest? What is the international sign/symbol for 'you are under arrest'?

DonMagee
08-13-2010, 01:00 PM
I fail to see how any martial arts training could have improved this situation.

This situation could have been resolved with a simple touch of the arm, attention to the situation and communication with the people. Instead they just reacted, did not take stock in the fact he was deaf and made it a conflict.

I fail to see how any techniques beyond respect and intelligence could have solved this problem.

Don_Modesto
08-13-2010, 01:09 PM
Looks to me the big guy might have had some Gracie training. Little sense of proportion, but some training.

Phil Van Treese
08-13-2010, 01:34 PM
I have, and still do, taught chokes and, properly applied, chokes are a great means of controlling someone. NO, you won't crush someone's windpipe and they are not "of the devil". In Tomiki aikido, we teach matwork, including chokes. So far no one in my class has died, suffered a crushed windpipe, or has had any physical harm done to them. You must be properly trained and I would advise anyone if they want to learn chokes, go to a judo class or seek out a Tomiki aikido instr. You will learn chokes the correct way, well at least I hope you do. If anyone lives near Tampa, Fla. come on by and I will gladly teach you chokes---without the brain damage.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-13-2010, 03:01 PM
More than 2:30 to handcuff a non resisting suspect.... the security guy has mad skills.

Buck
08-13-2010, 09:55 PM
Why would you out LEO, prison guard and 'rank amateur' security guard into the same bag?


Opps...yea. LEOs and security guards not in the same bag. :blush: :blush:

sakumeikan
08-15-2010, 03:36 PM
I have, and still do, taught chokes and, properly applied, chokes are a great means of controlling someone. NO, you won't crush someone's windpipe and they are not "of the devil". In Tomiki aikido, we teach matwork, including chokes. So far no one in my class has died, suffered a crushed windpipe, or has had any physical harm done to them. You must be properly trained and I would advise anyone if they want to learn chokes, go to a judo class or seek out a Tomiki aikido instr. You will learn chokes the correct way, well at least I hope you do. If anyone lives near Tampa, Fla. come on by and I will gladly teach you chokes---without the brain damage.

There is a big difference between applying a shime waza in a dojo setting than in a street encounter.You are hardly likely to get a guy with no training to know how/when to tap out.The likely effect of banging a choke on some person [especially if he /she is a bit aggressive ]in my opinion is fraught with danger.How would it look if by chance a L.E.O /Security guard killed somebody ?
Any way being a policeman does not in my opinion give anybody the right to use excess force.Here in the U.K a policeman pushed a innocent man to the ground without any provocation.The man died shortly afterwards possibly through internal bleedin. All the L.E. O got [so far ] was a slap on the wrist. .At least Rodney King survived his encounter with L.E.Os.

Carsten Möllering
08-16-2010, 07:33 AM
There is a big difference between applying a shime waza in a dojo setting than in a street encounter.
...
How would it look if by chance a L.E.O /Security guard killed somebody ?
...
Any way being a policeman does not in my opinion give anybody the right to use excess force.
...
In Germany choking/strangling is strictly and specifically prohibited for police officers, security guards etc..

Buck
08-16-2010, 09:29 AM
More than 2:30 to handcuff a non resisting suspect.... the security guy has mad skills.

Bullseyes! If he would had been better trained by having the proper tools, to deal with the situation correctly, than the ones he used there would be no situation of controversy. :)

Buck
08-16-2010, 09:47 AM
The security guy, clearly handled the situation improperly. His training by his company or that on his own failed him the second he went into MMA mode - due to the popularity of MMA that is how it is seen unfortunately.

He didn't pull of the MMA or MMA type of moves poorly. He dominated the deaf guy and controlled him based on those skills. He applied the wrong skills to the situation. It is my belief and experience that if he had learned Aikido and taken up Aikido philosophy such need for physical contact wouldn't have existed.

I think it is because of his possible MMA or MMA like training, or his pseudo MMA training (learned by watching UFC or BJJ videos) fostered the idea and influenced him to take the action as he did, taking him to the ground. That may work in the ring, it clearly doesn't outside of the ring.

He used the wrong tools (includes wrong attitude and skills) in dealing with the situation, no matter how well he pulled them off or not. If he was better at those skills, I think the situation would have looked worse for him then and in court.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-16-2010, 02:56 PM
The security guy, clearly handled the situation improperly.
Yes.

It is my belief and experience that if he had learned Aikido and taken up Aikido philosophy such need for physical contact wouldn't have existed.
Surely he could have arrested and handcuffed the suspect from 9 feet away, and in less than 30 sec nonetheless. It is called the no touch handcuffing... I think is in the requirements for aikido sandan test in every serious organization.

Rob Watson
08-16-2010, 03:57 PM
Yes.

Surely he could have arrested and handcuffed the suspect from 9 feet away, and in less than 30 sec nonetheless. It is called the no touch handcuffing... I think is in the requirements for aikido sandan test in every serious organization.

Hojojitsu torite kaze waza. Three techniques for sandan includes kihon, kinonagare and variations as well. Handcuff, ziptie or a stout cord may be used.

Krystal Locke
09-19-2010, 09:02 AM
As a certified unarmed security guard and an aikido black belt, I can honestly say that the arrest shown in that video actually went down pretty well.

In the report from the deaf man's attorney, it clearly states that the deaf man on the ground stepped away from the guard who had shown his badge and initiated communication. That is resisting arrest, deaf or not.

The guard is paid to detain shoplifters. The deaf man was convicted of robbery, he did shoplift, and it is a crime. It was right for him to be detained. He did resist the lawful arrest at least twice, when he stepped away, and when he continued to struggle against getting cuffed. Passive resistance is still resistance and it is still actionable. His resistance was just barely beyond passive. He attempted to keep the guard from controlling and cuffing him.

I would have done much the same as the guard. I have done much the same. I will do much the same the next time someone resists my legal attempts to either remove a person from an event or detain them until police arrive.

I have "choked out" a shoplifter before, one who was seriously and actively resisting arrest. I put the quotes in because I intentionally did not set a real, deep, effective choke on the guy. It is entirely possible to make someone so uncomfortable that they think they are being choked. Takes time and takes putting the person in a great deal of discomfort, but it does not choke the person.

Let's look at the guard's technique. His elbow is at the front of the guy's throat, not an air choke, but a blood choke. He applied his chokes for how long? Something in the range of minutes. Why wasn't the guy unconscious? Usually takes a dozen seconds or so for a choke to knock a person out, but the guy tapped for far longer than that. He was uncomfortable, not choked. The only reason chokes are frowned upon in security work is because they look bad to bystanders with cell phone cameras and no training. I was taught blood chokes as part of my security company's mandatory training, as was this guard, apparently. Of course, he likely wasn't taught by Blok Sensei himself, so his choke is wrong and not aiki, while mine is.

The other guard did something very good. He kept the deaf guy's friend out of the situation as best as he could. He might have done better to remove his person further, maybe under the guise of taking a statement. Would have defused the situation faster, in my opinion. Quite possibly would have allowed the guard on the ground to move to cuffing sooner if he also wasn't worried about getting it from someone else he did not have control over.

I gotta say, I see a lot of kuchi-waza in this thread. Lots of "should have" and "well, aikido would...". I dont see the justification. We train in a bubble. The vast majority of aikidoka never have to deal with anything even close to arresting or bouncing someone. I can guarantee you, it doesn't go down the way it does in class. Class can only provide a very pale simulation of real physical conflict.

As an aikido dan who works in security, I gotta say that situation looks pretty clean to me. It is always unfortunate when someone breaks the law enough that they must be arrested.