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Rabih Shanshiry
08-02-2010, 04:14 PM
Yoshinkan is generally known for it's effective judo-influenced ukemi. Within the Yoshinkan, however, I have seen two completely different ways of taking ukemi from a shihonage pin.

This first found here at the 0:20 - 0:30 mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G66spr_o6Wg

The second here at the 0:24 - 0:28 mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAVP7F89cpU&feature=related

Which do you think is the better approach for safely taking ukemi from the shihonage pin at full speed - and why?

...rab

Ellis Amdur
08-02-2010, 07:03 PM
Neither - if either of nage in the two clips had turned out, perhaps half-way through the technique, intending suddenly to break uke's arm, uke could do nothing about it, because he is committed to taking a back fall. Uke should turn towards nage, with his head against his own arm, "intending" to take a forward roll/tobu ukemi. IF and only IF tori clearly does a shihonage without bridging the arm, uke can then "sit up" into a back ukemi.

Ellis Amdur

Rabih Shanshiry
08-02-2010, 08:03 PM
Neither - if either of nage in the two clips had turned out, perhaps half-way through the technique, intending suddenly to break uke's arm, uke could do nothing about it, because he is committed to taking a back fall. Uke should turn towards nage, with his head against his own arm, "intending" to take a forward roll/tobu ukemi. IF and only IF tori clearly does a shihonage without bridging the arm, uke can then "sit up" into a back ukemi.

Ellis Amdur

Thank you Ellis - I have your fine video and I recall now that you highlighted this in particular on it. I'll have to go back and review.

What's your general take on the idea of taking ukemi on your shoulder blades as in the first example? It strikes me as insane but I've been told by those more knowledgeable than I that it's actually more protective during a fast, hard shihonage. Any validity to that?

Ellis Amdur
08-02-2010, 08:15 PM
Rabih - What kind of ukemi. I strongly advocate that rolls go over lats/shoulder blade/small of back, rather than shoulder joint and hip joint.

If you mean taking a fall directly backwards, and folding in your shoulder blades to protect your spine? (I'm guessing here that this might be what you mean), don't think I'd like to do that.

Best
Ellis Amdur

Rabih Shanshiry
08-02-2010, 08:44 PM
If you mean taking a fall directly backwards, and folding in your shoulder blades to protect your spine? (I'm guessing here that this might be what you mean), don't think I'd like to do that.

Best
Ellis Amdur

I think we're talking about the same thing. Essentially - taking ukemi from shihonage by "doing the limbo." The first part of your body to make contact is your outstretched arm followed by your upper back/shoulder blade. Your butt never hits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G66spr_o6Wg


Can any Yoshi guys out there explain why the shihonage ukemi is sometimes practiced this way?

RED
08-02-2010, 08:56 PM
I'm not fan of either. In both they are giving up their connection to nage. :/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8rbCaruxyU

I think the video I posted is more like what Ellis was describing. You turn your body with the nage, to let yourself down for either a gradual wide-legged decent to the mat, or you are lined up for a variety of forward rolls, or a breakfall.

In the video you posted,I see why they do it, but for my purposes I don't see why they give up their connection to nage so easily.

RED
08-02-2010, 09:02 PM
I think we're talking about the same thing. Essentially - taking ukemi from shihonage by "doing the limbo." The first part of your body to make contact is your outstretched arm followed by your upper back/shoulder blade. Your butt never hits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G66spr_o6Wg

Can any Yoshi guys out there explain why the shihonage ukemi is sometimes practiced this way?

That video you posted is interesting. I'm not a fan of doing that for shihonage. But that is basically the first stage for a type of kick-up ukemi, which is like used for direct irimi and the like.

ninjaqutie
08-02-2010, 09:44 PM
I don't like either of those videos. I guess I do it how it is described by a few other people. I put my head towards my arm for support and turn slightly toward nage. Makes ukemi easier and I can take a breakfall if needed. Even if you don't take the breakfall, the ukemi is more roll-y instead of plopping right down on your back.

RED
08-02-2010, 10:09 PM
I don't like either of those videos. I guess I do it how it is described by a few other people. I put my head towards my arm for support and turn slightly toward nage. Makes ukemi easier and I can take a breakfall if needed. Even if you don't take the breakfall, the ukemi is more roll-y instead of plopping right down on your back.
I like the ability to recover and get back up into nage if the shihonage fails. I can't see how you can recover when falling straight backwards. I might be missing something though?

gdandscompserv
08-02-2010, 11:25 PM
i like to grab my partner and bring them down with me!
:D

Carsten Möllering
08-03-2010, 02:04 AM
I can't really contribute to this discussion because the ukemi in yoshinkan is different to what we do. Because technique is applied in a different way.

My question: Is there ukemi possible in a comparable way like shown here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFCNvIJ8CjI)?

aah sorry, jus saw the uke of yamada doing it this way when thrown the second time.

Carsten

DH
08-03-2010, 02:14 AM
Why does ukemi always lead to falling down?
Why fall down at all?
Is there a reason...not to stay standing up?
Why allow the elbow to be drawn out from the body at all?
Why allow the arm to be placed across Ukes body line at all?
Can someone explain that?

Why not teach people to do aiki to neutralize aikido?
Neutralize the nage's defense...then you can do whatever you like as uke; including standing up, and staring them in the face. I have taught people to stop Shihan in Daito ryu and aikido by just being them. Without even lifting a finger to defend themselves, the technical waza of both arts were neutralized by the core skill in both arts; their one true brilliance...aiki.

What was the origin of practicing these somewhat marginal locks? As Kevin, Don, Ellis, George...myself and an ever increasing number of others continue to point out; stand up locks really are not that effective in the first place. I have confidence that the older, more experienced, Judo and koryu guys who were the original deshi needed no advice from us.
They got what we get...going in.
Shiho nage in particular is very marginal. As Tomiki pointed out in AJ "Shiho nage is a very unusual lock. Just look at it and study its form. You can't get Judo men to bend their arm that way." So why did they get "bought in" to these marginal locks? Didn't Mochizuki, the one time potential inheritor of aikido, and a true powerhouse, state that "The locks were meant to condition the body?" That alone makes more sense out of their unusual nature played against a culture immersed in Koryu jujutsu. So how did these men who saw what we saw, get so bought in? By the old mans aiki, that's how. I believe that the smart ones spent the rest of their time trying to get what he had...aiki...by practicing them for conditioning, and not by learning yet another way to bend an arm. Hence Tomiki's ki trick demonstrations of holding out an arm and saying.."Try to lock me!"
So Rab...maybe there are other things you need to be considering.

By using aiki to condition the body...on both sides of the equation uke/nage, both parties can be learning very powerful things; learning to put on ever more powerful locks and throws as their partner is learning to cancel out their best efforts. The training then builds and builds and people get shihan level power as Mudansha. And its a hell of a lot of fun without so much wear and tear on the body.

If we can agree that kyu ranked people can learn to stop these sorts of locks applied by Shihans, then can we not see that percentagewise we only need to occasionally fall down to let nage learn to complete, but that for the larger portions of practice uke can be learning to neutralize and save their bodies from needing to take falls, and that Nage can indeed learn to apply more powerful locks. This is the sort of thing I am increasingly doing with Aikido teachers and it appears to be received well.

While it may sound unusual as an approach, once again it appears those old guys had nothing on us. I have heard that Yamaguchi used to also engage in that kind of practice with his own private group, away from prying eyes, as well. I couple that with my being told by someone who got their nidan from Ueshiba Morihei himself that they used to practice pushing on each other and cancelling out things...right up into the 60's, but it was not done in general practice.
Cheers
Dan

gdandscompserv
08-03-2010, 06:34 AM
Why does ukemi always lead to falling down?
Why fall down at all?
Is there a reason...not to stay standing up?
Why allow the elbow to be drawn out from the body at all?
Why allow the arm to be placed across Ukes body line at all?
Can someone explain that?
Cuz we don't know any better?
:D

Carsten Möllering
08-03-2010, 08:36 AM
... I have heard that Yamaguchi used to also engage in that kind of practice with his own private group, away from prying eyes, as well. ...Yes.
And do you know whether those students who practiced this with him, have kept on doing it. Or whether they teach it?

If not, why not?
If they do, is their aikido different?

AsimHanif
08-03-2010, 08:46 AM
Rabih….I agree with much of what Ellis stated. However more than anything I try to stay with the technique as much as possible and not predetermine my response. I definitely don’t allow myself to be extended though and I position my body to counter either upright or on the ground. I also don’t take impact to my joints or bone.
My reasons for falling down /cooperating to a certain degree are:
- To allow my partner to practice the principle(s) we are working on
- Allow myself to feel gaps in my partners technique and have opportunities to counter
- Work on my body structure and flexibility
But as my partner becomes more versed in what we are doing, I don’t give myself up as much. Neutralizing my partner while we are working on certain aspects can be counter-productive to our mutual learning. There is a time for practicing neutralization though...in my very limited opinion.

Rabih Shanshiry
08-03-2010, 08:52 AM
Why does ukemi always lead to falling down?
Why fall down at all?
Is there a reason...not to stay standing up?
Why allow the elbow to be drawn out from the body at all?
Why allow the arm to be placed across Ukes body line at all?
Can someone explain that?

Dan,

I totally agree that we should be learning how to neutralize attacks via aiki. It makes perfect sense. A crude analogy being learning to make posion without being taught the antidote. Not a really good idea.

That said - don't you think there is still a place for traditional ukemi in that most people on the street will not be trained fighters or aiki masters able to neutralize a well executed technique? Therefore, there is some benefit for shi'te (nage) to learn how to take the opponent to the ground. Without a cooperative uke willing to go the ground, it makes the kata training difficult. I think there is also a benefit for uke learning how to properly fall to avoid injury for those times when you are not able to neutralize the attack.

Overall, your point is well is taken and I do agree we should be training "aiki ukemi" - which is non-existent in today's Aikido as far as I can see.

...rab

Stormcrow34
08-03-2010, 09:06 AM
Depends on the situation, and it helps to think of ukemi as a counter.

We usually turn towards the tori and forward roll to standing, as Ellis describes. Sometimes, and in a worse-case scenario, if uke is late to respond or the lock is on the elbow, we need to ratchet fall.

Alternatively, and time permitting, you could place your head along your shoulder and pivot away from tori. This movement places the original uke as tori in tembin nage, which often leads back into shiho nage. :D

DH
08-03-2010, 09:13 AM
Dan,

I totally agree that we should be learning how to neutralize attacks via aiki. It makes perfect sense. A crude analogy being learning to make posion without being taught the antidote. Not a really good idea.

That said - don't you think there is still a place for traditional ukemi in that most people on the street will not be trained fighters or aiki masters able to neutralize a well executed technique? Therefore, there is some benefit for shi'te (nage) to learn how to take the opponent to the ground. Without a cooperative uke willing to go the ground, it makes the kata training difficult. I think there is also a benefit for uke learning how to properly fall to avoid injury for those times when you are not able to neutralize the attack.

Overall, your point is well is taken and I do agree we should be training "aiki ukemi" - which is non-existent in today's Aikido as far as I can see.

...rab
Hi Bud
Of course I trhink you need to take ukemi. That's why I wrote this in the post silly...
then can we not see that percentagewise we only need to occasionally fall down to let nage learn to complete, but that for the larger portions of practice uke can be learning to neutralize and save their bodies from needing to take falls, and that Nage can indeed learn to apply more powerful locks

To flip that back on ya, what the hell is the point of always falling down or always going with it?
Having a balanced position on these things means exactly that; a balanced position, a seamless whole.
Learning/ taking ukemi
learning to have IP/aiki
Learning to use aiki to both do and to neutralize (I am not referring to externally countering waza with counter waza yet)
Then learning to counter waza with waza...through ukemi
Then learing to neutralize and counter waza witrh aiki and technique- now joined.
It's a total package.
I find it intriguing that my own early instincts about ukemi turns out to have been not only spot on, but a behind the scenes practice method of some of the experts. Made a lot of sense to me twenty years ago when no one else was talking about it...and even more now. It was a more complete picture of doing and having aiki in Aikido to me. Apparently the teachers I train with agree. Makes for some truly profound and powerful aikido
I think it's all about balance-yes pun intented.
Cheers
Dan

Rabih Shanshiry
08-03-2010, 09:24 AM
@Maggie and Ashley, I think Carsten is right in that the Yoshinkan execution may be different - especially since the technique being discussed here is the shihonage pin - not the throw.

Since shi'te (nage) controls uke all the way to the ground, there is no way to do a forward roll or "kotegaeshi" breakfall (hyaku ukemi) if the technique is done properly.

The problem occurs when the technique is not done correctly and uke is put in a position where injury might occur to their arm. That's why Ellis trains his students to anticipate taking a "kotegaeshi" breakfall until you are at a point in the technique where you know you will not be injured (and the breakfall isn't an option). Then you take a backward breakfall (koho ukemi) by dropping your butt to the matt (similar to video #2 in the OP).

...rab

For those who have Ellis's "Ukemi from the Ground Up," he starts this discussion at the 1 hour 15 minute mark.

Rabih Shanshiry
08-03-2010, 09:26 AM
Hi Bud
Of course I trhink you need to take ukemi. That's why I wrote this in the post silly...

Yup, you're right - sorry! I need to slow down. Thanks for pointing that out - makes perfect sense and I completely agree with the logic.

Looking forward to learning me some aiki ukemi in a couple weeks. :)

RED
08-03-2010, 09:52 AM
@Maggie and Ashley, I think Carsten is right in that the Yoshinkan execution may be different - especially since the technique being discussed here is the shihonage pin - not the throw.

For those who have Ellis's "Ukemi from the Ground Up," he starts this discussion at the 1 hour 15 minute mark.

For shihonage pin, I'd still react differently. I mean remain connected to nage when I am taken to a pin. I'm still seeing room in the video, at least in theory, for a softer, wider fall. I'd like to try and work out with this specific shihonage for the perspective. It is frustrating that I can't, I can't really speculate beyond that I prefer different ukemi. Without actually applying the technique, it makes things hard to speculate.

DH
08-03-2010, 09:58 AM
For shihonage throw, I'd still react differently. I'm still seeing room in the video, at least in theory, for a softer, wider fall. I'd like to try and work out with this specific shihonage for the perspective. It is frustrating that I can't, I can't really speculate beyond that I prefer different ukemi. Without actually applying the technique, it makes things hard to speculate.
That's a good point and it is another reason that getting out to other dojo within your art and other dojo outside the art, opens our minds to other possibilities.
If you are lucky, you can get people to allow you to explore options in throws/counters etc. There are some ukemi you will never be able to take from certain approaches.
This is one of the reasons that more learned people continue to question many locks and throws and positioning within their arts. It comes from a broader experience base. It also allows you to look at and truly understand in a more non-prejudicial manner, the strengths in your own art and others.
Cheers
Dan

Rabih Shanshiry
08-03-2010, 11:07 AM
I'd like to try and work out with this specific shihonage for the perspective. It is frustrating that I can't, I can't really speculate beyond that I prefer different ukemi. Without actually applying the technique, it makes things hard to speculate.

Next time you're in the Boston area, come visit the Goshinkan in Newton. You are welcome anytime.

Or drop by any Yoshinkan dojo in your area. The shihonage pin is one of our basic techniques (kihon waza) so you should find a uniform approach to its execution at any Yoshinkan dojo.

ninjaqutie
08-03-2010, 11:31 AM
I like the ability to recover and get back up into nage if the shihonage fails. I can't see how you can recover when falling straight backwards. I might be missing something though?

If you stay on the balls of your feet instead of being flatt footed and you really push your center up, you can come back up easier. Sensei likes to use me to demonstrate and I get put in that situation so he can demonstrate why you should stay on the balls of your feet (for the sole reason you mentioned- you can come back up or walk around backwards if nage decides to walk you around)

Adam Huss
08-03-2010, 01:15 PM
For the first variation shown it is required that nage have actual control over uke. Its probably the most gentle way to take ukemi from shihonage but is somewhat difficult as uke needs to be at least a little be flexible and nage, again, has to have control of uke. When this happens (as is taught for this basic technique, to include ukemi), uke and nage maintain a very high level of connection with each other and nage can basically set uke down as gently or rudely as desired (there are three angles for nage to take uke down).

Key points: keeping head connected to your own elbow to prevent shoulder seperation, nage should have uke's elbow fully extended to get actual control (not just uke falling down for nage)...this kind of control will pop uke up on his/her toes because the hips are popped up and the shoulders are extended back and down as much as uke can stand before compromising balance. The nage in the first video is doing a different variation of shihonage so its not being shown in the exact original intent...in case there is some confusion on that. The above-mentioned compromised balance continues to the mat...which nage maintaining control all the way down vice uke doing a step-back or sit-back breakfall and chasing uke down to the mat. Nage controls uke's decent because nage has stolen uke's balance. The pin then should be the continuation of this motion, uke's shoulders and elbow pinned, face up, to the mat and energy projected forward which keeps uke's hips popped up thus taking uke's feet out of the equation. I always thought it a temporary pin, but after trying it in jujitsu class as a hold down it worked better than I thought (held down while uke was trying to bump out). Hard (for me) to explain, but I'll see if I can find a good clip of it..including the pin.

The first clip also shows a sit-back breakfall version.

*Important note: the first clip is't to be considered what Yoshinkan is practicing these days...its from a derivative and hasn't been taught at Yoshinkan Honbu since before I was born.

The second clip, I'm not that familiar with...I know it from that clip actually. I think its Ando Sensei, so that's probably more close to what is taught at Yoshinkan these days.

mathewjgano
08-03-2010, 01:21 PM
To flip that back on ya, what the hell is the point of always falling down or always going with it?
I find it intriguing that my own early instincts about ukemi turns out to have been not only spot on, but a behind the scenes practice method of some of the experts. Made a lot of sense to me twenty years ago when no one else was talking about it...and even more now. It was a more complete picture of doing and having aiki in Aikido to me. Apparently the teachers I train with agree. Makes for some truly profound and powerful aikido
I think it's all about balance-yes pun intented.
Cheers
Dan

In my slight experience I've always found the lessons of kaeshiwaza and "standard" waza to form a more complete picture of what I should be doing at any given time in technique. At sensei Barrish's dojo, when two people who knew each other well trained together, there was often a sense of some free-play attached to the training. That is, when both parties feel comfortable with the basic movement (and each other's ability or desire for training), they often play with whatever opening's they might find...some times more than others. I always found this very helpful though. Shodokan seems to have a more structured form of this, but their graduated approach to resistance seems to fit this aim.
I'm curious if Dan or Ellis know of a good, readily accessible, visual example of the ukemi they'd recommend. I've looked for something that looks like what I recall experiencing, but haven't found anything. At Kannagara dojo we often have a strong arch to the back, but that's partly because nage is driving the wrist/arm through uke's body toward his or her feet, forcing the back-bridge. My sense of taking ukemi was to try and drop the elbow, which included trying to turn into nage with one possible aim of grabbing from behind. I'm not sure if this is quite what Ellis meant, but his description reminded me a bit of it. At Himeji Shodokan the projection was (seemed to be) more straight back and down, creating the "sitting down" backward breakfall. The Shodokan example I remember was more of a throw than a pin though.
...And I may be confusing the waza. I believe it's called tenkai kotegaeshi in that system, but hopefully someone with more experience can chime in and correct me.

RED
08-03-2010, 01:44 PM
Next time you're in the Boston area, come visit the Goshinkan in Newton. You are welcome anytime.

Or drop by any Yoshinkan dojo in your area. The shihonage pin is one of our basic techniques (kihon waza) so you should find a uniform approach to its execution at any Yoshinkan dojo.

haha, Boston is my home town, I might just take you up on it someday.

RED
08-03-2010, 01:45 PM
If you stay on the balls of your feet instead of being flatt footed and you really push your center up, you can come back up easier. Sensei likes to use me to demonstrate and I get put in that situation so he can demonstrate why you should stay on the balls of your feet (for the sole reason you mentioned- you can come back up or walk around backwards if nage decides to walk you around)

its all about the balls of the feet. lol
Staying light is usually one of the biggest priorities we are taught in my school. Connection and lightness, they allow for you to maintain your ballance, and recover if nage leaves an opening.

Rabih Shanshiry
08-03-2010, 03:56 PM
*Important note: the first clip is't to be considered what Yoshinkan is practicing these days...its from a derivative and hasn't been taught at Yoshinkan Honbu since before I was born.

Adam,

From your experience and the teachings of your Yoshinkan line, what is the benefit to being taken down onto the shoulders without the butt first dropping as in a standard koho ukemi?

Why do you/we do it that way?

...rab

Adam Huss
08-03-2010, 04:19 PM
Adam,

From your experience and the teachings of your Yoshinkan line, what is the benefit to being taken down onto the shoulders without the butt first dropping as in a standard koho ukemi?

Why do you/we do it that way?

...rab

First, its my kihon. Our oyo waza version is generally considered the kuzushi, katahizatsuki variaiton. Second, its a softer and safer landing for uke as long as shite has control Third, there is more control by shite. Since this is kihon, there is a right and wrong way to do nage, osae, ukemi, etc. This version ensures shite has katameru before "throwing" uke. Obviously, if shite was going to actually throw uke, vice taking him to the ground, this might not be the best way to fall..I could do it, but I'm young, somewhat flexible, and have good control when doing ukemi.

Its basically the same thing Ando Sensei's uke was doing, except as soon as his shoulders hit he immediately pops his hips out, the presure release comes into play as you see his legs kick out...from what I can tell at least.

Rabih Shanshiry
08-03-2010, 04:31 PM
Its basically the same thing Ando Sensei's uke was doing, except as soon as his shoulders hit he immediately pops his hips out, the presure release comes into play as you see his legs kick out...from what I can tell at least.

Thanks for the comment Adam.

I don't think Ando teaches this method as part of his kihon though I could be wrong. In the second video clip from the OP, Ando's uke clearly drops his hips and makes contact with his butt on the matt first. Basically a standard koho ukemi, with the addition of the legs kicking up at the end to relieve pressure from the pin.

Osu!
...rab

Adam Huss
08-03-2010, 04:51 PM
Oh ok...thanks for the correction. Apologies for giving wrong info! I was commenting off memory which I shouldn't have done!

Osu!

Ellis Amdur
08-03-2010, 11:46 PM
Matthew Gano wrote:

I'm curious if Dan or Ellis know of a good, readily accessible, visual example of the ukemi they'd recommend.

I know a certain DVD (http://www.edgework.info/buy-books-on-martial-arts.html). ;)

Janet Rosen
08-04-2010, 12:01 AM
I know a certain DVD (http://www.edgework.info/buy-books-on-martial-arts.html). ;)

and highly recommended.

mathewjgano
08-04-2010, 12:37 PM
I know a certain DVD (http://www.edgework.info/buy-books-on-martial-arts.html). ;)

:D Somehow I thought that might be the answer I'd get. I suppose it IS readily available, although I meant something I could glimps right away. I'll have to check with my chief financial officer (wife) to see if I can buy your DVD, it does sound like a great resource (and pretty affordable)! Do you know of a close approximation for what you're describing in shihonage found on youtube though?

Ellis Amdur
08-04-2010, 02:30 PM
Do you know of a close approximation for what you're describing in shihonage found on youtube though?

Nope

raul rodrigo
08-04-2010, 08:39 PM
I was talking to an instructor at Yoshinkan Hombu the other day, and he said that with the way they do shihonage ukemi, it's not uncommon for the new senshusei to get knocked out when being thrown by the shihan.

RED
08-04-2010, 09:42 PM
I was talking to an instructor at Yoshinkan Hombu the other day, and he said that with the way they do shihonage ukemi, it's not uncommon for the new senshusei to get knocked out when being thrown by the shihan.

LMAO, that's awesome.

Adam Huss
08-05-2010, 01:41 AM
Well historically shihonage has been the most destructive technique. Gotta to love the Shihonage Sabu Chan stories!

DH
08-05-2010, 09:48 AM
I was talking to an instructor at Yoshinkan Hombu the other day, and he said that with the way they do shihonage ukemi, it's not uncommon for the new senshusei to get knocked out when being thrown by the shihan.
Oh, Yeah!
That's really intelligent.:rolleyes:
I would love to meet the Shihan and have him try that on me. What do you think that shihans chances would be at pulling off that shihonage throw on Couture? Well actually any decent grappler. Almost impossible I would bet. So, why do that to someone who either isn't allowed to fight back, or doesn't even know how?
Stanley has a great article about Aikido being the most dangerous martial art.(with statistics of injuries). Not because of its techniques, not because of its skill, but because the uke cooperates in his own demise.

Training accidents aside, where is the care and concern for the uke? We are not at war and everyone needs to have the long view in preserving our own safety for each of us. I think that means not accepting abuse, calling people on it and addressing it for the sake of us all. We have all seen enough beat up old budoka. There just is no need.
Why are there so many extremely capable, even dangerous, old grapplers who are just fine?
Why? Self preservation in fighting back. No ukemi!
We can learn to be capable while at least trying to be careful.
Dan

RED
08-05-2010, 12:08 PM
Oh, Yeah!
That's really intelligent.:rolleyes:
I would love to meet the Shihan and have him try that on me. What do you think that shihans chances would be at pulling off that shihonage throw on Couture? Well actually any decent grappler. Almost impossible I would bet.

ahhh crap..lol another wrestling pissing contest ..begins! lol:p

RED
08-05-2010, 12:16 PM
Well historically shihonage has been the most destructive technique. Gotta to love the Shihonage Sabu Chan stories!

Actually, I read a study in the past(it might of been in one of the old-old-old paper versions of Aikido Journal, not remembering now.) but it actually said shihonage had the worse track record for injuries. Iriminage was also really bad. But techniques like koshi and jujinage were relatively low for injuries.(I'd like to point out that they included university clubs in the study. They attributed injuries at these clubs to poor instruction, and a lack of high ranking students to administer classes...so basically a bunch of 19 year old guys messing around and accidentally hurting each other.)

Buck
08-05-2010, 12:25 PM
FWIW, allow me to add a minor comment and element that maybe of interest. I learned to take Shihonage in away that was making me uncomfortable as a result, I was concerned about injury. I place that on the shoulders of myself, lack of experience with taking Ukemi from Shihonage, my instruction, and the lack of experience with the waza of my training partners.

I was on vacation and happened to run into a Hapkido school, O.K. we were driving by a strip mall and seen a Hapkido school located there. Never seeing Hapkido live, I was curious as there are some similarities to Aikido. The thing was, during the observation of the class I recognized a technique they where doing as Shihonage. The thing the struck me was how they took the fall. It was a break fall.

The students where pretty rough with each other, it wasn't controlled kata. It look like a fight. Well, they where really rough. I was surprised that I didn't hear the snap of breaking bones as they practice the wazas. And after class discussion with the students it was clear to me why the could go all out on each other and not get injured. In short it was explained it is the responsibility of both people practicing the technique to do what they need to do, to get the job done.

That is to say, the thrower seriously went full speed and intensity, and it was the job of the receiver of the throw to counter and resist the throw, and one was to break fall during the execution of the technique. However the thrower placed the arm in position, it was the receiver to avoid the break however they could. One person said depending on how the arm is placed vertically or otherwise, as the receiver of the technique, he best avoided the situation with a jumping back breakfall- traveling faster that the speed of the applied technique.

The caveat was if you don't time it right your screwed- if you brake fall early while the thrower is still standing and hasn't started to lower his center of gravity his decent by kneeling down taking the receiver to the ground in the pre-pin position, injury results, as one example. It was said there is allot of responsibility upon the receiver of the throw, because in a live situation and find your self on the receiving end of the waza, you have to know how to protect yourself from injury, and that is the purpose of taking falls.

Personally, I adopted some of that philosophy and practice.And once I did that I felt more comfortable. I was taught via the philosophy of Aikido that the Shi has the responsibility not to injury the uke. And I think is good,, but not to the extreme I was taking it at. So, now I take my share of the responsibility for my own welfare. When I am the uke I am always aware when taking Ukiem what I need to do to prevent me from being injured. In many cases of being the uke,I will make a small hop to get ahead of the waza, and do a back break fall at the right time to save my arm, usually done with new over anxious students, that don't have a lot of control. Students who are always driving on the freeway, type of thing.

Maybe my story might help others to avoid injury, be thinking aobut different ways etc, in taking Ukemi to avoid injury.

Adam Huss
08-05-2010, 12:26 PM
I've always felt one can't grow without at least some element of risk. While I disagree with a lot of the behavior I see from some high level instructors (applying pins like they're throwing a revere punch), I have no problem with genuine robust throwing as one's ukemi should always be able to handle it...as long as both parties are so inclined. At the senshusei, both parties are so inclined.

Adam Huss
08-05-2010, 12:33 PM
Actually, I read a study in the past(it might of been in one of the old-old-old paper versions of Aikido Journal, not remembering now.) but it actually said shihonage had the worse track record for injuries. Iriminage was also really bad. But techniques like koshi and jujinage were relatively low for injuries.(I'd like to point out that they included university clubs in the study. They attributed injuries at these clubs to poor instruction, and a lack of high ranking students to administer classes...so basically a bunch of 19 year old guys messing around and accidentally hurting each other.)

O'Sensei killed one student and seriously injured another in the same seminar. All the deaths I know of are from the original honbu dojo. I think at least two or three were from shihonage. The most serious injury I've seen in my organization was caused by hakama entanglement (totally jacked up his leg, torn something or other)...although I am quite cognizant of the high injury level in aikido. Even though 99% of aikido is cooperative these injuries still occur, usually due to a lack of control on the part of nage b/c they halfway learned technique, to include ukemi. See how I brought that back to ukemi? Full circle, baby, oh yea!

akiy
08-05-2010, 12:39 PM
Actually, I read a study in the past(it might of been in one of the old-old-old paper versions of Aikido Journal, not remembering now.)
I believe you are referring to this article entitled "Aikido and Injuries: A Special Report" on Aikido Journal by Fumiaki Shishida sensei, written in 1989:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=8

-- Jun

Buck
08-05-2010, 01:02 PM
I also think that when we look at Aikido waza, what was the original purpose and design, why was it created and to answer what type of attack and attacker. The would also help I think in understanding how to avoid injury. It would help with why the uke is placed in the position they are placed and give insight to how to take the Ukemi. It is my understanding that Shihonage is one of those waza designed with the absent of Ukemi in mind. That might be the reason for the injury susceptibility and rate with this technique.

Buck
08-05-2010, 01:21 PM
I guess what I am saying now that I think about it, is that Aikido wazas can be dangerous, and inflict great injury. And sometimes due to the concerned mood of Aikido that is forgotten or not realized. In terms of safety you really need to know what your dealing with and the potential it has to harm. It's is like what my college welding teacher said before he cut off his finger off demonstrating safety procedures of a welding cutting torch, "...respect the flame, understand how it works because if you don't, it will seriously injury you." Lesson learned is that of concentration.

Adam Huss
08-05-2010, 01:46 PM
I also think that when we look at Aikido waza, what was the original purpose and design, why was it created and to answer what type of attack and attacker. The would also help I think in understanding how to avoid injury. It would help with why the uke is placed in the position they are placed and give insight to how to take the Ukemi. It is my understanding that Shihonage is one of those waza designed with the absent of Ukemi in mind. That might be the reason for the injury susceptibility and rate with this technique.

This is why we learn a specific technique, with a specific ukemi in our kihon waza (by we I mean my group). While the ukemi isn't scrutinized as much as technique, its still important..in particular safety points as well as how to actually go about taking ukemi for each technique.

Rabih Shanshiry
08-05-2010, 02:12 PM
O'Sensei killed one student and seriously injured another in the same seminar. All the deaths I know of are from the original honbu dojo. I think at least two or three were from shihonage. The most serious injury I've seen in my organization was caused by hakama entanglement (totally jacked up his leg, torn something or other)...although I am quite cognizant of the high injury level in aikido. Even though 99% of aikido is cooperative these injuries still occur, usually due to a lack of control on the part of nage b/c they halfway learned technique, to include ukemi. See how I brought that back to ukemi? Full circle, baby, oh yea!

Adam,

I've never heard or read about O'Sensei killing a student during a seminar. Are you sure you weren't thinking about his performance before the Emporer when his first uke got a broken arm with the first throw and Shioda had to serve as uke for the next 40 minutes? As I recall Shioda ran a high fever afterwards and was bed ridden for several days.

If you have more detail on O'Sensei killing a student, please share. I'd be very interested in learning more.

Thanks and osu!
...rab

RED
08-05-2010, 02:12 PM
I believe you are referring to this article entitled "Aikido and Injuries: A Special Report" on Aikido Journal by Fumiaki Shishida sensei, written in 1989:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=8

-- Jun

bingo, thanks!

RED
08-05-2010, 02:14 PM
O'Sensei killed one student and seriously injured another in the same seminar. All the deaths I know of are from the original honbu dojo. I think at least two or three were from shihonage. The most serious injury I've seen in my organization was caused by hakama entanglement (totally jacked up his leg, torn something or other)...although I am quite cognizant of the high injury level in aikido. Even though 99% of aikido is cooperative these injuries still occur, usually due to a lack of control on the part of nage b/c they halfway learned technique, to include ukemi. See how I brought that back to ukemi? Full circle, baby, oh yea!

A shidoin once told me that at a certain level of Aikido "you know just enough to be dangerous"

Michael Hackett
08-05-2010, 02:29 PM
My only knowledge of the senshusei program comes from "Angry White Pajamas", a book I enjoyed, but is apparently disparaged by Yoshinkan folks. My understanding is that a student can enter the program without having any background in the arts and that the course is (by my definition) brutal. I am neither justifying or defending it. It seems that they take pride in their injuries in that course and that it is considerably different in flavor than regular Yoshinkan classes. After reading the book, I became convinced that I didn't want to train in that program (not that it was actually a possibility) and was very happy where I am. Maybe my limited perception is all wrong, but I would think that crippled Tokyo Riot Police officers wouldn't be all that handy to have around.

Adam Huss
08-05-2010, 03:13 PM
A shidoin once told me that at a certain level of Aikido "you know just enough to be dangerous"

Brown belt...yep. Same thing in karate. Know just enough skill to have some effect but not fully controlled, and are usually young and enthusiastic enough to apply that as vigorously as possible. I hate sparring brown belts, lol.

Adam Huss
08-05-2010, 03:17 PM
My only knowledge of the senshusei program comes from "Angry White Pajamas", a book I enjoyed, but is apparently disparaged by Yoshinkan folks. My understanding is that a student can enter the program without having any background in the arts and that the course is (by my definition) brutal. I am neither justifying or defending it. It seems that they take pride in their injuries in that course and that it is considerably different in flavor than regular Yoshinkan classes. After reading the book, I became convinced that I didn't want to train in that program (not that it was actually a possibility) and was very happy where I am. Maybe my limited perception is all wrong, but I would think that crippled Tokyo Riot Police officers wouldn't be all that handy to have around.

I think crippled people were a rarity, but a broken finger or nose now and again isn't uncommon...these are not crippling injuries. While technique is nice, this kind of training forges something a bit more practical than a crisp ikkyo (although it can do that as well). But, as you say, people know what they are getting into when they go there...and the Yoshinkai emphasize safety first, I guess its just a matter of perspective as to what that entails. Sometimes safety is confused with comfort....but as I mentioned in another thread, you have to set the atmosphere of your training/dojo. You can have a dojo of 8 hard core talented students that can't really sustain itself, or you can have a successful dojo where you can teach the art to dozens of students of varying skill levels and varying ideas on what they want out of their art....or a balance somewhere between the two (well I guess the second thing I mentioned is more of a balance than an extreme).

RED
08-05-2010, 03:47 PM
Brown belt...yep. Same thing in karate. Know just enough skill to have some effect but not fully controlled, and are usually young and enthusiastic enough to apply that as vigorously as possible. I hate sparring brown belts, lol.

I'm guessing brown belt is some where between 2nd-1st kyu.(we use only white belt until yudansha.)

The shidoin I had talked to also had the same opinion of new black belts.
He feels that people are confident in their ability years before they become competent in their abilities.

Russ Q
08-05-2010, 04:24 PM
Interesting thread...the more I read Dan H. the more I agree with him. The below quote is from Sensei Takahashi's reply on the "Why do we turn our heads when pinned" thread...I think it speaks to the paradigm in which we train. IMHO, if someone is slamming you down when you are giving your body to them then something is wrong.

In Aikido especially, the nage is given huge leeway in finishing the technique, which would be totally unrealistic and unacceptable for the uke to yield to in an actual confrontation, and life or death situation. Thus the agreement that uke allows the nage to perform the waza thoroughly without real resistance, and that the nage accepts the responsibility of keeping the uke safe from any real threat of harm, is the basis for Aikido's kata form of training

Buck
08-05-2010, 05:52 PM
Something I think this thread speaks to as well is the attitude taken toward theory and practice of Ukemi in the dojo dictates or reflects how it is taught and practiced. The spectrum might be on one end a heavy focus on O'Sensei's philosophy not to harm. The opposite may be very little focus or adhesion to such philosophy. Both ends have very different approaches to Ukemi as well as (related) to the technique.

The core of it all is that Ukemi isn't something that is naturally done and has to be learned, thus a technique in itself. That is something you are always improving on. And honestly, it is some that isn't going to be used outside of the dojo; there is a very low likelihood your are going to be thrown on the street. More than likely taking Ukemi on the street results from a non-martial arts incident. Therefore, I think the attention of Ukemi should be placed under the circumstances, applications and intention toward the safety of the practitioners. Do I need to mention liability insurance. ya see where I am coming from cause all this talk of Ukemi is underlined with that ugly reality. And the art of Ukemi takes a back sit. :)

Point being if you're not getting injured (after say 1 year of practicing Ukemi) in the dojo or at a seminar, where your pinky is placed and all that is superficial to the core purpose of being protected. That is my opinion based on any liability and stuff. That really is the core of the matter (liability, court, being sued, and stuff) as I see it. Because there is such a wide spectrum of interpretation of O'Sensei's philosophy that relates to Ukemi you really got to look if the Ukemi is protecting people from injury. :)

Buck
08-05-2010, 06:16 PM
I realize that my view point is limited to just making sure no one gets hurt. And throws out everything else. Where there is no need to focus on the art of Ukemi, and it is treated more as a utility. For example, as long as no one is getting hurt and protecting themselves under the umbrella of Aikido conditions it doesn't matter how ugly the Ukemi goes. And time and experience also is really the best teacher, as long as the attitude is to always improve and never satisfied. My limited view is I guess going back to the basics and insuring Ukemi is seen and practiced as a means of a safety measure and nothing else. I understand the importance of the other focuses of Ukemi but I simply see that as secondary importance. And by no means discounting other practices or philosophies of Ukemi. :)

Adam Huss
08-06-2010, 12:53 AM
I'm guessing brown belt is some where between 2nd-1st kyu.(we use only white belt until yudansha.)

The shidoin I had talked to also had the same opinion of new black belts.
He feels that people are confident in their ability years before they become competent in their abilities.

Lol, I'll have to steal that quote...so true. Um, for my karate I think brown belt started at third kyu. For our aikido; one style has brown belt at 2nd kyu, the other at 3rd kyu. Interestingly both my karate and aikikai groups add stripes to belts while my Yoshinkan offshoot group starts with stripes on their belts and then takes them off as they progress....sorry, that's a little off topic.

Carsten Möllering
08-06-2010, 02:22 AM
In short it was explained it is the responsibility of both people practicing the technique ...
you have to know how to protect yourself from injury, and that is the purpose of taking falls.
Well yes, this is the way we also understand it in the dojo I know:
It is ukes responsibility not to get hurt. This is what makes good ukemi so demanding.

I was taught via the philosophy of Aikido that the Shi has the responsibility not to injury the uke.
Said this short this is not our philosphy:
But it is shites job to react and adopt when he realizes that aite can't take the responsibility for himself.

I've never heard or read about O'Sensei killing a student during a seminar.
Teachers with strong connection to hombu talk about some incidents sometimes.

A shidoin once told me that at a certain level of Aikido "you know just enough to be dangerous"Most aikido I know - me included - are fare away from being dangerous for someon doing another MA.

We train with judoka, karateka, boxers from time to time. And I find it essenial not to overestimate ones skills.

Carsten

Maybe my story might help others to avoid injury, be thinking aobut different ways etc, in taking Ukemi to avoid injury.[/QUOTE]

Buck
08-06-2010, 08:27 AM
Well yes, this is the way we also understand it in the dojo I know:


Good points.

Basia Halliop
08-06-2010, 09:06 AM
Well yes, this is the way we also understand it in the dojo I know:
It is ukes responsibility not to get hurt. This is what makes good ukemi so demanding.

For the most part, I basically agree with that... but since all grades practice together and there are no weight categories, I think it does sometimes need some common sense adjustment on the part of nage - you don't intentionally give someone way more than you have reason to believe they can likely handle, particularly someone less experienced than you.

E.g., I think your statement applies differently if nage is a shodan and uke is a fifth kyu, versus two dan ranked students together.

Rabih Shanshiry
08-06-2010, 09:57 AM
@Carsten: "It is ukes responsibility not to get hurt."

Aikido - even at the jiyuwaza level - is about cooperative training. It is not sparring - where both parties attempt to give and take to the best of their ability while freely defending themselves.

Shi'te signals what attack he wants, where he wants it, and uke delivers it as ordered. These are not real attacks - they are overextended punches or dagger thrusts, ritualized tegetana strikes, scripted grab attempts, etc.

Uke is giving his body to shi'te for shi'te's benefit - whether in training or performance. In many situations, uke willfully places himself in a situations where shi'te could easily and seriously injure uke if he was so inclined. Inherent in that is a sacred trust that shi'te will safeguard his partner.

To place the ultimate responsibility for safety on uke within this paradigm is completely illogical.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-06-2010, 10:09 AM
Uke is giving his body to shi'te for shi'te's benefit - whether in training or performance. In many situations, uke willfully places himself in a situations where shi'te could easily and seriously injure uke if he was so inclined. Inherent in that is a sacred trust that shi'te will safeguard his partner.

To place the ultimate responsibility for safety on uke within this paradigm is completely illogical.
But shi'te can make a mistake. Uke has to be always ready to avoid the damage, even if is unintentional.

Adam Huss
08-06-2010, 10:38 AM
I think you are looking at an extreme and taking Rab somewhat out of context. His first statement was the most poignant to this discourse...that uke and shi'te work cooperatively. Each share equal responsibility in what is happening...though uke is placing his trust a bit more to nage as he is the 'doer' of the technique. I think Rab's point was that the extreme view of safety on the part of the uke is illogical...that its a shared experience.

RED
08-06-2010, 12:06 PM
But shi'te can make a mistake. Uke has to be always ready to avoid the damage, even if is unintentional.

I believe that Aikido training is a lot like kata. It is about repetitive cooperative training for the benefits of both parties improving themselves.
With that said, ukemi skills should never be under estimated. So many people focus so much on nage that they never want to learn ukemi. There should be an ukemi technique up your sleeves for anything nage throw at you, even his mistakes.

Now, with that said lol, you should be practicing to your uke's level.

ninjaqutie
08-06-2010, 12:23 PM
Brown belt...yep. Same thing in karate. Know just enough skill to have some effect but not fully controlled, and are usually young and enthusiastic enough to apply that as vigorously as possible. I hate sparring brown belts, lol.

In my old dojo, that happened at the green belt level (which was the third belt). Some of our brown belts did get big ego's when it came to teaching, but it was more of a power trip then them thinking their technique was all the sudden super duper. :D

Janet Rosen
08-06-2010, 02:31 PM
Shi'te signals what attack he wants, where he wants it, and uke delivers it as ordered. These are not real attacks - they are overextended punches or dagger thrusts, ritualized tegetana strikes, scripted grab attempts, etc.

I believe in and do cooperative training. But I do NOT, even with newbies, purposedly deliver overextended attacks.

I am always giving the best attack I can; with newbies I may deliver it in slo-mo and make sure if he cannot make a connection to my center, then I will via my ukemi try to make a connection to his center so we can work together on the technique.

JO
08-06-2010, 08:13 PM
@Carsten: "It is ukes responsibility not to get hurt."

Aikido - even at the jiyuwaza level - is about cooperative training. It is not sparring - where both parties attempt to give and take to the best of their ability while freely defending themselves.

Shi'te signals what attack he wants, where he wants it, and uke delivers it as ordered. These are not real attacks - they are overextended punches or dagger thrusts, ritualized tegetana strikes, scripted grab attempts, etc.

Uke is giving his body to shi'te for shi'te's benefit - whether in training or performance. In many situations, uke willfully places himself in a situations where shi'te could easily and seriously injure uke if he was so inclined. Inherent in that is a sacred trust that shi'te will safeguard his partner.

To place the ultimate responsibility for safety on uke within this paradigm is completely illogical.

I kind of feel sorry for you that you have never gone beyond that level of training. Even in low level training, the only time I place myself in a dangerous position is when showing a beginner where he supposed to try to get me, the rest of the time they have to get me there themselves. How much resistance or countering I offer will then have to do with how much I think my partner can handle, as well as the type of training (exercises, basic forms, set attack jiyu waza, free attack jiyu waza, etc).

And you really need to add free attack jiyu waza to your repertoire, then move to free attack and free to counter.

Back to shiho nage. Though I have not seen his DVD, the description Ellis gave on how to protect youself seem good to me . I once got pretty badly hurt because I was not fast enough as uke and nage went one way with my arm while my body stayed planted. Both me and nage share responsibility for that one, me for not being prepared, quick enough or in a position to protect my arm, and nage for not being carefull enough and throwing me without first getting my balance (we were practicing throws, not arm tearing).

Yes, aikido is cooperative. But it needs to be much more intense and martial than what you are describing if you're going to get everything you can out of it, IMHO.

Carsten Möllering
08-08-2010, 09:38 AM
Hi
Aikido ... is about cooperative training. It is not sparring ...
Hm, what do you mean by "cooperative"? Depending on the skill-level of tori and uke, aikido is about not being thrown, about hindering, resisting and countering, about making it difficult for shite, to do the technique.

This is not sparring, and this is still kata. But even when doing kata from a certain level on it is possible that it comes to uke throwing nage and not the other way round.

We still call this "cooperative". Do you?

Shi'te signals what attack he wants, where he wants it, and uke delivers it as ordered. No. (This sounds a little "obedient"?)
The teacher signals to shite and uke the settings of their practice. He tells both of them what to do.
And within this setting uke delivers his attack as best, as he can. (Depending on the level of shite.)

These are not real attacks - they are overextended punches or dagger thrusts, ritualized tegetana strikes, scripted grab attempts, etc. Well, "as best as he can" means: Uke honestly tries to hit shite. Or to grab him in a way so he can't move anymore.
Sure these are no real attacks, but you can do them in a severe, grave way, staying centered, using kime. The way I practice we understand the attacks as links between kata and "real" attacks. They have to provide elements of both "regions".
I don't know how practice and understand the attacks. We train wiht karateka, judoka and practioners of other MA to improve our skills.
But I know dojo, where no attack that hits shite would cause a bruis or hurt.

Uke is giving his body to shi'te for shi'te's benefit - whether in training or performance. In many situations, uke willfully places himself in a situations where shi'te could easily and seriously injure uke if he was so inclined. Inherent in that is a sacred trust that shi'te will safeguard his partner. No.
I'm not giving my body for someones benefit. And sure I never would place myself in a situation where nage can hurt me.
Good ukemi as I or we understand it, on the contrary means, to avoid such situations! We teach the uke from the beginning not to place themselves in such situations.
Shite has to work his technique to get uke there. Uke will try to prevent himself from nage to be able to hurt him.

To place the ultimate responsibility for safety on uke within this paradigm is completely illogical.
I didn't use the word or thaught "ultimate". But I said that it is But it is shites responsibility to react and adopt when he realizes that uke can't take the responsibility for himself. No more, no less.

Maybe we have a different understanding? We try to learn to controll uke against his will.

Besides all that:
I think whether you practice the way we do or the way you do: There can allways happen mistakes, misunderstandings ... so huke should allways to be able to take care of himself?

Carsten

WilliB
08-29-2010, 12:47 PM
My only knowledge of the senshusei program comes from "Angry White Pajamas", a book I enjoyed, but is apparently disparaged by Yoshinkan folks. My understanding is that a student can enter the program without having any background in the arts and that the course is (by my definition) brutal. I am neither justifying or defending it. It seems that they take pride in their injuries in that course and that it is considerably different in flavor than regular Yoshinkan classes. After reading the book, I became convinced that I didn't want to train in that program (not that it was actually a possibility) and was very happy where I am. Maybe my limited perception is all wrong, but I would think that crippled Tokyo Riot Police officers wouldn't be all that handy to have around.

I know 2 people who are doing this currently and have met several graduates of this. I can confirm that they can do some big waza and take some wild breakfalls. But I don´t get the feeling from any of them that they actually know Aikido or what I consider as such.
Just my 2 yen worth.

Rabih Shanshiry
08-29-2010, 01:27 PM
I know 2 people who are doing this currently and have met several graduates of this. I can confirm that they can do some big waza and take some wild breakfalls. But I don´t get the feeling from any of them that they actually know Aikido or what I consider as such.
Just my 2 yen worth.

Care to elaborate what you consider to be Aikido and what you mean by "knowing it?".

WilliB
08-30-2010, 01:53 AM
Care to elaborate what you consider to be Aikido and what you mean by "knowing it?".

LOL, no. Not getting into a p*ssing contest. I am too Aikido for that :-)

C. David Henderson
09-01-2010, 12:26 PM
So...you view Aikido as throwing a verbal brick and then walking away? I don't understand.

mathewjgano
09-01-2010, 02:15 PM
LOL, no. Not getting into a p*ssing contest. I am too Aikido for that :-)

I don't see why it has to be a pissing contest. You've already expressed your opinion. It's not unreasonable to ask for more information about your opinion...particularly in a forum of discussions about opinions.
...Did it apply somehow to shihonage ukemi?

WilliB
09-02-2010, 02:19 AM
So...you view Aikido as throwing a verbal brick and then walking away? I don't understand.

2 yen are not a brick. Hell, you would not even notice if they hit you.
I simply stated my impression from meeting people, Your impression might be different. There is nothing to argue here.

C. David Henderson
09-02-2010, 09:23 AM
And that is still quite different from what Matt is describing. It also is impossible for a reader to evaluate your impression, because when asked you declined to say more.

Your impression also appeared expressed as somewhat dismissive. You may call that "two yen" if you like, but I'm not surprised you elicted the reaction you did.

Carsten Möllering
09-02-2010, 10:15 AM
... when asked you declined to say more.
This seems to be a pattern.

C. David Henderson
09-02-2010, 10:21 AM
I concur.

slayer205
10-19-2010, 12:01 PM
i would suggest either a back fall or fly fall,depending on the set up and your surroundings . take it easy and try different ways and see what you like best.