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TimB99
08-02-2010, 01:11 PM
OK.. So I'm getting inspired by all that 'internal power' stuff.

Whatever it is, I'm open to seeking it out and experimenting with whatever I find, and that's exactly why I've made this thread.

With that said, I'm curious as to what kinds of cultivating methods are out there, what they teach, what they do, and why.
So I'd love some feedback on those things. Just to get some reference materials as to what training opportunities I should look out for, what the specific parts in my own training are that I should look out for, and just to get a broad overview of what this thing really is, what it can do, and why I should look out for it.

Also, since I do know about the IHTBF rule, you won't need to point it out to me :p. I'm not here to ask for the nitty-gritty details about this internal power stuff because I don't have an illusion about figuring this stuff out for myself. I will get round to feeling it.

As for the final question: what practice has benefitted you personally? What things should I look out for? What things should I experiment with and seek out, in your opinion? And, of course, why?

Now, I realize this may be a bit much to answer, so feel free to leave out whatever question you want...
...except for the 'why'-questions :p I'd say those are more than essential ;)

Sincerely yours,

TB

Lee Salzman
08-02-2010, 03:10 PM
This topic is the stuff aikiweb flamewars are made of...

Maybe the best place to look for resources on the issue is at the Rum Soaked Fist forums, which have plenty of seminar announcements and angry discussions about all things related to Chinese martial arts. I have hooked up with people on there in the past, and it got my foot in the door with CMA.

The only universal thing I've found in my own training with respect to all this is that the internal label is a red herring. If there is a physical attribute that can be isolated and trained in the depth, that benefits movement in general and not just some technique, to the measurable benefit of one's combat abilities, then it is worth training. Such attributes do not seem to be gained by osmosis efficiently through just practicing technique or sparring, and likewise do not seem to directly translate back into combat ability without effort to make them.

My own training, though, has been focused almost exclusively on explosive power, for which the benefits seem more obvious, like move quicker, react faster, hit harder, but improvement has been damned slow most times and carry-over to anything aikido-like has been nonexistent. I still think it is cool stuff, though. :)

dps
08-03-2010, 07:15 AM
All paths lead to internal power. It is with you all the time.

Read what is the current research into the inner workings of the human body.

http://www.anatomytrains.com/ is a good place to start.

David

DH
08-03-2010, 08:16 AM
All paths lead to internal power. It is with you all the time.

Read what is the current research into the inner workings of the human body.

http://www.anatomytrains.com/ is a good place to start.

David
Reading anatomy trains will not help you. I talk about A.T. all the time, but for other reasons. It is no path to power.
Dan

HL1978
08-03-2010, 09:39 AM
With that said, I'm curious as to what kinds of cultivating methods are out there, what they teach, what they do, and why.
So I'd love some feedback on those things.

As for the final question: what practice has benefitted you personally? What things should I look out for? What things should I experiment with and seek out, in your opinion? And, of course, why?

Now, I realize this may be a bit much to answer, so feel free to leave out whatever question you want...
...except for the 'why'-questions :p I'd say those are more than essential ;)

Sincerely yours,

TB

As to which methods are out there, you will see seminar announcements within this forum. From my personal experience either with the people putting on the seminars, or from some of their students, there is a reasonable amount of similarity between each approach, that is to say that someone who attends one seminar will recognize elements in anothers material despite differences in exercises or focus. Its probably best to stick with one particular approach, at least initially than try them all out. That being said, after putting in some time, attending seminars by other people has filled in some things which I might have missed or heard before, but misunderstood.

What they all do is teach how to move and use the the body in a non-intuitive manner. This will make you feel different not only to yourself but to other people. This is not inherently or initially better (due to the effort required and level needed to pull some of it off), but different. As for the why, well once you are different enough, other people will have a difficult time dealing without because your movement and feeling is outside their frame of reference.

As for what I got out of it all, well like others have said, "My eyes were opened to budo." I understood what the various foundational exercises I had preformed over the years and thought were not particularly useful or realistic were intended to train. I had a better idea of what I thought was philosophy was actually referring to specific sensations. This in turn lead to better performance in terms of both "strength", endurance and the ability to off-balance people or pressure them from positions in which they feel strong.

For example, in BJJ I might still get submitted by a higher ranked opponent with superior technique, but they are much more winded than I am which creates opportunities for me, or I can put power back into them from places I would be considered weak or not particularly dangerous for them and regain an advantage. The same applies to kendo or karate as well.

Buck
08-03-2010, 11:51 AM
Maybe the best place to look for resources on the issue is at the Rum Soaked Fist forums, which have plenty of seminar announcements and angry discussions about all things related to Chinese martial arts. I have hooked up with people on there in the past, and it got my foot in the door with CMA.

The only universal thing I've found in my own training with respect to all this is that the internal label is a red herring. If there is a physical attribute that can be isolated and trained in the depth, that benefits movement in general and not just some technique, to the measurable benefit of one's combat abilities, then it is worth training. Such attributes do not seem to be gained by osmosis efficiently through just practicing technique or sparring, and likewise do not seem to directly translate back into combat ability without effort to make them.

My own training, though, has been focused almost exclusively on explosive power, for which the benefits seem more obvious, like move quicker, react faster, hit harder, but improvement has been damned slow most times and carry-over to anything aikido-like has been nonexistent. I still think it is cool stuff, though. :)

Good stuff! I too see similar things in my training, as I have friends who are in CMA and I have dabbled myself in it with them. Per my reading of some of the Tai chi texts and that of concurring with Tai chi authors such as Waysun Liao, and others, for example. Point to Internal power as something that isn't seen, not noticeable, not readily detectable, and stuff. This is indicated by the Chinese Character written for Chi. Which is represents a pot with a fire beneath giving off steam. Chi then being, air/steam, according to those in CMA, is applied to the idea of breathing.

Internal power may simply be the act of breathing that results in forces. Possibly paralleling the forces that result from exhaling. We can move things with our exhaled breath. For instance, when we exhale strongly we can blow out candles, a force results. In corporate this crude example, oxygen is fuel for the fire. Or, the steam engine model.

I feel idea of internal power is layered with complex ancient mythology, specialized language, abstract cultural elements and concepts, to say the least, all resulting in an unique construct. A construct very elementary in its inception as indicated by the Chinese character for Chi which is the source, the fuel, for internal power.

As a result, no particular concrete attributes are identified. It seems to me allot goes into discussing the concepts and subjective parts of the internal power construct, and very little into anything else. For example, it is like discussing the conceptual elements behind the forces of the steam from a boiling pot of water, but very little if any on the pot, the fire, or fuel used, all relation to the graphic symbol to represent Chi of the Chinese language. How the steam is discussed is very abstract. This may be due to the limited understanding of the Chinese observing the forces of steam and the how and why of these forces at work. That is in comparison to what we understand today about such things.

This abstract concept of internal power as a result of various readings and discussions has lead me to believe internal power doesn't have a concrete identifiable definition in its application, resulting in the opportunity for a variety of explanations and open interpretations. That is we can hang any favorable result on internal power that isn't readily identifiable. For example, very much how we use the word magic and attribute things to magic. Like, explaining how cell phones send and receive transmissions, to my nephew, without a Ph.D. I say it is magic.

Internal power, as I have concluded, is an elaborate explanation for a simply physical result, like blowing out a candle or the steam from a boiling pot of water burning the skin or moving the lid, that isn't readily noticeable, or hidden. This leads me to believe the really is no road, rather a general, unspecific label, such as the word container, applied to techniques. That internal power, isn't a competent of technique or a technique itself, rather it being a concept of power or force with a desired result, that has a label, like home run.

jss
08-03-2010, 11:53 AM
With that said, I'm curious as to what kinds of cultivating methods are out there, what they teach, what they do, and why.
There are plenty of teachers of 'internal strength' out there, but definitions of 'internal strength' tend to vary. I think you should ask yourself: what do I want to learn exactly and who can teach it to me?

what the specific parts in my own training are that I should look out for
What does your training consist of?

As for the final question: what practice has benefitted you personally?
Any practice I know how to do somewhat properly. Zhan Zhuang comes to mind, although that's not a very helpful answer. It's like saying that running did great wonders for my health. What kind of running, what technique, how often do you train, how did it improve my health exactly, etc.?

What things should I look out for? What things should I experiment with and seek out, in your opinion? And, of course, why?
Meet as much people as you can that claim to have internal strength. Mike Sigman, Akuzawa and Dan Harden are know here as 'having the goods'. Go meet them. Go to seminars of big names of martial arts that are known for internal strength. Process all the information acquired as critically as possible and determine your next step.

Buck
08-03-2010, 12:47 PM
Internal Chinese martial arts are very popular, with millions of people practicing and teaching them all over the world. With that said, even among them and the known experts internal power who have written books there is a variety opinions and interpretations. There are many feats that catch attention that are attributed to internal power.

Again, say a home run, or a cross court shoot that is all net. Or someone in football seemingly making an incredible touch down by escaping the tackle attempts, or braking though a bunch of linemen. Or the redirection of a thrown baseball in mid-air. When such things are not really seen on how the results came about they are attributed to and termed as internal power when associated with MA.

Not all roads lead to Rome, or any road for that matter leads to Rome. Internal power something build like a road or a object like Rome. That is Internal power, i.e. blowing expelled air forcefully, etc.,process isn't readily observed, yet the observable result of power is noted. For instance, the explanation of the candles going out without touching them is because I used my internal power. I inhaled and forceful blew out the candles. Though all the observers only noticed my exhale and distracting ornate body movements of building up Chi that accompanied the feat. Internal power than has no roads. Rather, possibly a matter of foot prints.

C. David Henderson
08-03-2010, 01:15 PM
Reading anatomy trains will not help you. I talk about A.T. all the time, but for other reasons. It is no path to power.
Dan

Hi Dan,

What do you talk about when you talk about AT?

Regards,

Buck
08-03-2010, 03:57 PM
My closing thoughts are since not all roads lead to Rome when it comes to internal power then how is it acquired. The ancient texts that I have read and other readings indicate to me, internal power is already existent in us. That is pretty clear because we are breathing, and Chi is air. In terms of internal power in its cultivation requires breathing exercises. Then to apply internal power (well that is when it gets fuzzy), in various methods, and ways.

One way many express internal power is through principles -applying physics. For example, Aikido uses internal power when a waza results in a throw. That is based the fact Aikido wazas don't grab someone, pick 'em up and heave them through the air. As, in those Link's Beef Jerky "Don't Mess with Sasquatch" commercials. That has no relation to the CM term of external. Here is where the balance is taken way, gravity comes into play, etc. instead of brute force strength to do the job.

Another way is via process, like what a baseball pitcher does to throw a curve ball or other types of pitches. That is what isn't seen is how he grabs the ball. A picture grabs the ball usually inside his mit or behind his back, and does so in a fashion that will dictate they type of pitch, how the ball will travel in space, and the direction.

Cultivation isn't really what I feel the right perspective to take as much as it is practice with a goal in mind. Cultivation is not as specific and can mean many things that can complicate what the correct meaning and application is. Therefore, I prefer the term and perspective of practice. That falls in line with every thing we do.

Internal power, to throw like Aikido and not like a Sasquatch. Since most people can't throw like a Sasquatch they will tend to figure out a way that will work for them.Just as pitcher have develop different pitches. What limits them I think is that they are confined to paradigms set by perceptions, constructs, culture, instruction and interpretation and special language.

Paradigms in this sense limits the understanding of internal power to be something, rather than a concept not readily seen when applied. In relation to a paradigm it is thought of as a specific thing. Such as salt, only enhancing the flavor of food. When looking into different internal power applications paradigms are restricting to that.

When you brake the paradigm, it allows you to see internal power as a concept, thus having an universal application vs. limited in scope as mentioned above. There are the a wide scope of different applications of internal power. Such as a pitcher gripping the ball in various ways and getting results of the ball traveling in different directions and speeds. Or the various ways to achieve kazushi.

Basically, practice is important without paradigms see the full scope of internal power applications. Which again is like choosing not to picking up a person and heaving them through the room. But instead applying body movements that alter and effect the opponent's body which includes achieving kazushi. All of which is very subtle and hard to detect visually. Much like how a boiling pot of water moves it's lid.

Budd
08-03-2010, 04:25 PM
Cultivation isn't really what I feel the right perspective to take as much as it is practice with a goal in mind. Cultivation is not as specific and can mean many things that can complicate what the correct meaning and application is. Therefore, I prefer the term and perspective of practice. That falls in line with every thing we do.


Just in aikido alone, you have Ueshiba point blank demonstrating Funakogi Undo with Terry Dobson and talking about how you need to cultivate the body. That's only one nod to many, many Asian texts where people "in the know" gave a nod by relating the root strength of martial arts to one's internal conditioning and prowess via the idea of "cultivation" and adhering to the laws/connections between heaven and earth.

The notion that internal strength just "happens" because it's in nature is only espoused by those that don't actually have any abilities in this area. Internal power in the martial arts landscape references very specific things around manners in which the body is conditioned through physical training of the bones, connective tissues, etc. through poses, postures, gravity drills, breath drills, etc. .. different styles have (or had) different means and emphasis on aspects of this but they all related towards the same fundamental weird and different types of strength that martial arts training was supposed to confer.

Buck
08-03-2010, 06:24 PM
Just in aikido alone, you have Ueshiba point blank demonstrating Funakogi Undo with Terry Dobson and talking about how you need to cultivate the body. That's only one nod to many, many Asian texts where people "in the know" gave a nod by relating the root strength of martial arts to one's internal conditioning and prowess via the idea of "cultivation" and adhering to the laws/connections between heaven and earth.

The notion that internal strength just "happens" because it's in nature is only espoused by those that don't actually have any abilities in this area. Internal power in the martial arts landscape references very specific things around manners in which the body is conditioned through physical training of the bones, connective tissues, etc. through poses, postures, gravity drills, breath drills, etc. .. different styles have (or had) different means and emphasis on aspects of this but they all related towards the same fundamental weird and different types of strength that martial arts training was supposed to confer.

Internal strength is a term I am not familiar within the renown texts and CMA I have spoke to, though I have talked about it in the context by which others have defined, and that was in error. Strength and power are not the same or interchangeable as I thought In my correction, power is he ability to do something or act in a particular way, esp. as a faculty or quality : the power of concentration. I am referring to the term of internal power within the documented definitions by texts of masters both past and present. Again the analogy of the steam of a boiling water pot moving the pot lid, and not like the strength used to lift the lid. I understand how I might be confusing and offering this delineation to avoid any confusion.

Also, my opinions and views as I stated are the result of my research and contacts in understanding in relation to CMA. My career is not in teaching CMA or Aikido. I am not a professional teacher nor do I wish to gain recognition of any sort or have an vested interest in such recognition in either CMA or Aikido. It is my hobby, it is my past time. I enjoy sharing ideas and information.

With that said, I hope that provides readers with where I am coming from and my purpose for posting as a means of sharing information I have found and understand with others. :)

HL1978
08-03-2010, 09:20 PM
I'm a complete beginner in Chinese, but I was under the impression that 內勁 or neijin(g) translates to internal strength? That term might be more familiar to CMA practitioners. 内力 is literally internal power, but I have no clue how common it is to say it that way.

dps
08-03-2010, 10:05 PM
Reading anatomy trains will not help you. I talk about A.T. all the time, but for other reasons. It is no path to power.
Dan

Understanding how the body works is a path to understanding power and internal strength. Ignorance is not.

David

Lorel Latorilla
08-03-2010, 10:15 PM
Tim,

I say ignore most of what is being said here (especially the posts by Philipp Burgess and David Skaggs) and see some of the guys known for this. You can privately message them about this.

Buck
08-03-2010, 10:35 PM
I'm a complete beginner in Chinese, but I was under the impression that 內勁 or neijin(g) translates to internal strength? That term might be more familiar to CMA practitioners. 内力 is literally internal power, but I have no clue how common it is to say it that way.

Good point, I use 'internal energy" as Chi and "internal power" as Jing and Fah Jing as "transfer" or "projection." These terms and definitions are the most commonly used when I speak with those who I know that practice CMA. Per neijin my understanding and usage is along the lines of Wikipedia's explanation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nei_Jing Also include the term Neijia, as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neijia

I use these term in this fashion, and no longer use "internal strength" as it is not used with those I know in the CMA and is not as commonly used in my readings.

I also do this to be more accurate and inline with the above reasons, and so that there is no confusion with previous posts on internal arts that was discussed on this forum sometime ago. I am using these terms, as stated above, as a demarcation from my previous conversations on internal strength.

Well that is how I use those terms. :)

Lee Salzman
08-03-2010, 11:28 PM
Understanding how the body works is a path to understanding power and internal strength. Ignorance is not.

David

I think the case goes very much in the opposite direction, with the the analytic aspects helping you to reason why a training methodology works and to cut away unproductive training, but not very helpful in coming up with one in the first place which is more just dumb luck plus trial and error.

The training methodologies are the valuable part, and in what I've seen so far the ideas they are based on are extremely simple. What distinguishes the end result is how much work has been poured into that attribute and in what way.

It can be hard to believe that a given training method can even result in what it claims to do till you see an example of someone who, using the method, got to an awe inspiring level of bodily skill. Even after seeing examples, lots of the stuff can seem a bit silly. Were it not for getting out, seeing, and training with people who've actually achieved via whatever methods, I would have thought almost all the training I currently do is just stupid, and it still feels that way half the time anyway. And even nicer, the people don't agree at face value on what is an effective method either. So it can take a bit of ignorant stubbornness to stick with what I am doing in spite of any self-doubt, with written materials and opinions having almost no bearing on that. :)

DH
08-04-2010, 08:54 AM
Chi is the gas created by the food we eat
Internal power is the control of orifices as it comes out of our bodies.
Fajing is how far it can project and clear a room.
Just to clarify, this is according to my readings and discussions with those in CMA I know.;)

Maybe I need to make new friends.;)

Keith Larman
08-04-2010, 10:04 AM
Chi is the gas created by the food we eat
Internal power is the control of orifices as it comes out of our bodies.
Fajing is how far it can project and clear a room.
Just to clarify, this is according to my readings and discussions with those in CMA I know.;)

Maybe I need to make new friends.;)

Ahhhhh... So my wife was trying to help me develop more internal strength when she gave me two "wraps" done up with these newfangled "high fiber/whole grain/freakishly modified" tortilla like things. Those suckers had a ton of fiber, apparently, most from inulin or something like that. Good, lord, I felt like the Hindenburg. "No, don't light that!!!! AIIIIEIEEEEIEIEIEIEIE!!!! PHWOOM!"

I'm assuming a prolific poster is pontificating on the topic (ah, the joys of the ignore feature). Now to find those tortilla like things and sneak them into the trash. That can't be real food no matter how much "internal power" they create. Even my dogs are offended...

DH
08-04-2010, 10:05 AM
That's it Keith.......bingo....you have internal power!!
I tried the ignore feature myself, but you miss out on so much really entertaining humor.

David Scaggs wrote:
All paths lead to internal power. It is with you all the time.
So the above was an example to illustrate that understanding the gastro/intestinal system must-of course- also be key to understanding the body and a path to understanding true power and internal strength.
So according to David, flatulence is internal power because....well...because I wrote it on the internet.;)
Dan

Keith Larman
08-04-2010, 10:25 AM
That's it Keith.......bingo....you have internal power!!

I have the power!

You know it's bad when dogs who think rolling on a dead animal is the closest thing to Nirvana get up in disgust and leave the room...

gdandscompserv
08-04-2010, 11:19 AM
Hey Keith,
Did you ever make it to Bosco Baek's classes? I'm gonna get my motorcycle license soon so I can afford the trip to LA and start classes I think.

Buck
08-04-2010, 12:09 PM
As for the final question: what practice has benefitted you personally? What things should I look out for? What things should I experiment with and seek out, in your opinion? And, of course, why?

Sincerely yours,

TB

My 2 cents is find yourself a good teacher, which isn't easy. You may first encounter poor teachers. People who are not properly trained completely, understand and/or apply well these constructs, I spoke of. After sometime with one or two such poor teachers you may find a good one. Most of the time good teachers are not adverting or making themselves a high profile item. That is different then a community, like the Chinese community, recommending or not recommending a teacher. Chinese community centers are often good places to start. You probably don't want to learn from someone who is a student of a teacher overseas running a class. You want an instructor that is conducting classes on the spot and not remotely though a student. It is like any other art. A good instructor, can tell you what to experiment with and seek out.

What has benefitted me by having some exposure to CMA and the CMA community is all of what I have been posting. It provides me a good model in understanding CMA and the similarities they have to Japanese Martial Arts. There are allot of good books and bad books out there, but with a little research you can find good books and stuff on the net that provide you information that will help you learn. That is background, history, models of a good teacher, and help you bridge the communication barrier often existing when information is translated from one language and culture to another.

Oh, and the old rules apply, buyer beware, and if it sounds too good to be true it usually is, and hard sells ( or any selling ) are often signs of cultish martial arts behavior. There are snake oils salesmen out there in all martial arts, and people who talk a good talk or mavericks, rebels, etc, usually don't know much, do, much, or understand much; all applies to CMA, which are no different then any other.

The only thing am aware of that I hear the guys in CMA- Tai Chi, is an exercise called "reeling silk." I noticed some competitor at a CMA competition doing it in a hall way as a warm up I guess. I was told that it is important to breath purposefully and rhythmically while doing it. That's all I got, and thought to share it.

Budd
08-04-2010, 12:23 PM
This thread is already something of a trainwreck . . if you're a genuine seeker, you're going to have to go out and see what people are doing. It's actually quite useful to use the search function here and see who's actually gone out and felt whom.

Patrick Hutchinson
08-04-2010, 12:59 PM
Actually Reeling Silk is a mistranslation: it should be Stealing Rilke, as everything you need to know about internal strength can be found in the Duino Elegies (at least, according to my friend Hans, who knows some people, can use a keyboard, and has read some books):

Weißt du's noch nicht? Wirf aus den Armen die Leere
zu den Räumen hinzu, die wir atmen

(Do you not know yet? Throw the emptiness out of your arms to add to the spaces we breathe)

Wie der Pfeil die Sehne besteht, um gesammelt im Absprung
mehr zu sein als er selbst. Denn Bleiben ist nirgends.

(As the arrow endures the bow, so as to be, in its flight, something more than itself? For staying is nowhere.)

Die ewige Strömung
reißt durch beide Bereiche alle Alter
immer mit sich und übertönt sie in beiden.

(The eternal current
sweeps all the ages, within it, through both the spheres,
forever, and resounds above them in both.)

gregstec
08-04-2010, 01:20 PM
That's it Keith.......bingo....you have internal power!!

So the above was an example to illustrate that understanding the gastro/intestinal system must-of course- also be key to understanding the body and a path to understanding true power and internal strength.

Dan

Another HIPS (hidden in plain smell) axiom surfaces. So based on the odoriferous level of my powder room one Sunday morning after it was visited by a certain DH after training, I can truly attest to his HIGH level of internal strength :eek:

Greg

Budd
08-04-2010, 01:43 PM
Oh Greg, you went there . . *smacks self in head*

gregstec
08-04-2010, 01:52 PM
Oh Greg, you went there . . *smacks self in head*

Could not resist since he nicley set himself up for it :D don't worry, I will pay for it the next time we hook up :eek:

Budd
08-04-2010, 02:06 PM
Could not resist since he nicley set himself up for it :D don't worry, I will pay for it the next time we hook up :eek:

Hmm, not sure whether that makes you or Dan the stinker ;) (yeah, yeah, pot, kettle, etc.)

Thomas Campbell
08-04-2010, 04:10 PM
Actually Reeling Silk is a mistranslation: it should be Stealing Rilke, as everything you need to know about internal strength can be found in the Duino Elegies . . .

Yes, but throwing the arms out only relates to kai/he (open/close). Rilke obviously knew nothing about spirals.

Budd
08-04-2010, 04:23 PM
I realized that I may have been applying standards that were too . . credible . . it is time I loosened up on my definition of Internal Strength/Power/Love/Huggery since really they should all be one and the same and given equal weight in sameness of consideration and scope and thought and hugs.

Having spoken with some of my cubicle kami, furthermore I have decided that actively pursuing internal power according to the standards laid out via demonstration and vetting should be constrained more to simply letting the thoughts that grace my brain as I type this flow right to my fingertips without any need of filter or consideration or logic or research.

I have researched this topic furthermore by looking at menus written with Chinese characters and it is clear that the type of food we eat helps to cultivate true internal *infinite* (because it is all infinite in nature by nature in scope of understanding and by cultivation I mean letting it build up like gas in our stomachs). Let us not be limited in our approach by dictating that terms be understood and methods explained or demonstrated. Instead we should all work for harmony by sharing unconditional internet hugs and accolades for the effort it takes in typing out these thoughts on these topics.

In closing, I hope this helps the initial poster in finding their own path for internal infinite. Because we all by now should agree that as long as we believe what we are doing is truly infinitely internal, that will by nature give us the strength to see the internal for what it truly is, the mirror image of the external, only turned individually inward upon us all at once at the same time.

In additional closing if you the original poster insists on training in internal strength via the cruder space of physical training in person with other people, a potential option could be to visit with someone else with similar crude proclivities of pursuit and activity. At that time there may be a sharing of activity pursuit of proclivation. And that may be a good thing for us all at once at the same time.

Thomas Campbell
08-04-2010, 04:45 PM
I Instead we should all work for harmony by sharing unconditional internet hugs and accolades for the effort it takes in typing out these thoughts on these topics.


That would be the aiki thing to do.

Keith Larman
08-04-2010, 05:33 PM
Hey Keith,
Did you ever make it to Bosco Baek's classes? I'm gonna get my motorcycle license soon so I can afford the trip to LA and start classes I think.

No, I was told he had stopped taking on new students or something along those lines. Add into the equation that I've been too busy and been dealing with some recurring physical problems. So I've been spending more time with my Physical therapist than training lately. Can't work and earn money if my body is beat up. So the priority for now has been getting healthy again. Once I can get and stay relatively healthy and they figure out what's going on with my back I'll try to start getting out a bit more again. But it has been a sort of hit and miss thing for me the last few years. Lots of injuries combined with a hard to treat myopathy has made for a somewhat difficult training regimen.

gregstec
08-04-2010, 06:14 PM
I realized that I may have been applying standards that were too . . credible . . it is time I loosened up on my definition of Internal Strength/Power/Love/Huggery since really they should all be one and the same and given equal weight in sameness of consideration and scope and thought and hugs.

Having spoken with some of my cubicle kami, furthermore I have decided that actively pursuing internal power according to the standards laid out via demonstration and vetting should be constrained more to simply letting the thoughts that grace my brain as I type this flow right to my fingertips without any need of filter or consideration or logic or research.

I have researched this topic furthermore by looking at menus written with Chinese characters and it is clear that the type of food we eat helps to cultivate true internal *infinite* (because it is all infinite in nature by nature in scope of understanding and by cultivation I mean letting it build up like gas in our stomachs). Let us not be limited in our approach by dictating that terms be understood and methods explained or demonstrated. Instead we should all work for harmony by sharing unconditional internet hugs and accolades for the effort it takes in typing out these thoughts on these topics.

In closing, I hope this helps the initial poster in finding their own path for internal infinite. Because we all by now should agree that as long as we believe what we are doing is truly infinitely internal, that will by nature give us the strength to see the internal for what it truly is, the mirror image of the external, only turned individually inward upon us all at once at the same time.

In additional closing if you the original poster insists on training in internal strength via the cruder space of physical training in person with other people, a potential option could be to visit with someone else with similar crude proclivities of pursuit and activity. At that time there may be a sharing of activity pursuit of proclivation. And that may be a good thing for us all at once at the same time.

Looks like you joined the same cult as Buck - so, which comet are you guys planning on hitching a ride with when it orbits into proximity ? :crazy:

Greg

Janet Rosen
08-04-2010, 06:19 PM
Actually Reeling Silk is a mistranslation: it should be Stealing Rilke, as everything you need to know about internal strength can be found in the Duino Elegies (at least, according to my friend Hans, who knows some people, can use a keyboard, and has read some books):

You nearly cost me a new keyboard (sopping up the ice tea) :)

gdandscompserv
08-04-2010, 06:32 PM
No, I was told he had stopped taking on new students or something along those lines.
NOoo, tell me it aint so! Who told you that he wasn't taking new students?

mickeygelum
08-04-2010, 09:25 PM
Chi is the gas created by the food we eat
Internal power is the control of orifices as it comes out of our bodies.
Fajing is how far it can project and clear a room.
Just to clarify, this is according to my readings and discussions with those in CMA I know.

Maybe I need to make new friends.


Oh no, Dan...you are right at home...:D

If you happen to pass, Mark, no pun intended, tell him we missed him at our visit to Clarksburg.

Mickey

Budd
08-05-2010, 08:48 AM
Looks like you joined the same cult as Buck - so, which comet are you guys planning on hitching a ride with when it orbits into proximity ? :crazy:

Greg

Because it is aiki and internal infinite we will all befefit from the external pull of every comet upon our internal dynamic sphere all at once individually at the same time.

<aside>
I am really seeing the benefit of writing this way, it's a whole lot less mentally taxing and doesn't require any true thinking - especially useful while multitasking at work.
</aside>

DH
08-05-2010, 08:56 AM
If you happen to pass, Mark, no pun intended, tell him we missed him at our visit to Clarksburg.
Mickey
The question is....where you missed by him.;)

Hey did you hear about the general who criticized Obama? He got canned. Thankfully we don't fall under those same narrow guidelines eh? As I am sure you would agree!;)
Personally, I am finding it a wonderful change in the budo world to see modern practitioners allowed to go out an experience other peoples skills and encounter things that are just simply quite beyond what they previously knew even existed.
The good new is that after all our fears, most of the good Martial Arts teachers have actually been secure enough to have considered it a good thing, Some of the Shihan have even followed their own students into better martial understanding. Of course you are always going to have those poor insecure souls who think they are all that and will begrudge people their own education that doesn't originate with them or their system. Thankfully it appears that type of insecurity is rare. Everyone else walking into a new day of understanding that everyone who experiences it consideres to be of a superior level.
The modern era of communication, though challenging to some, might actually be a good thing after all. It has led people down paths of real power.

As for the Chi and gas comment ....that was a parody, and a joke about beliefs and misunderstanding and sources, in more ways then one. Perhaps you didn't follow.
Dan.

gregstec
08-05-2010, 08:58 AM
<aside>
I am really seeing the benefit of writing this way, it's a whole lot less mentally taxing and doesn't require any true thinking - especially useful while multitasking at work.
</aside>

You would make a good government worker :)

Budd
08-05-2010, 09:03 AM
You would make a good government worker :)

Been there, done that, as you know. ;)

DH
08-05-2010, 09:13 AM
I am really seeing the benefit of writing this way, it's a whole lot less mentally taxing and doesn't require any true thinking - especially useful while multitasking at work.

Dude! It does help doesn't it?
I myself am pleased to see that discussing a directed singular force at
y 2 = 2 px or x 2 = 2 py or more so, a hyperbolic parabola; creates an angle of deflection that is not equal to the angle of incidence. Bteer still, if the parrabelum has fluid properties and enough cohesive surface tension to dissipate that force in redirecting. A structure with tensegrity to support all sides in the same manner can go off the charts!.
This is how people should learn the arts. It’s why the older methods were so ineffective at instructing the real masters of old. People who think and train this way today are sooo much better...right?
It's the real path to internal power.:D

Budd
08-05-2010, 09:44 AM
Dude! It does help doesn't it?
I myself am pleased to see that discussing a directed singular force at
y 2 = 2 px or x 2 = 2 py or more so a hyperbolic parabola; creates an angle of deflection that is not equal to the angle of incidence. More so, if the parrabelum has fluid properties and enough cohesive tensegrity to dissipate that force in redirecting. This is how people learn the arts. It’s why the older methods were so ineffective at instructing the real masters of old. Today we are sooo much better...right?
It's the real path to internal power.:D

Wait, wait, I'm talking solely about how the interrelated actualities of the sum of our individualities in the natural world inherently lead to internal strength!!

What you seem to be proposing is more along the lines of a Johnny Quick formula for superpowers . . which if true means I will need to switch my mental paradigm (AGAIN!) to accommodate the scientific nature of appropriated formulaic functions and terms to fit the end result of why my momemtum-consumption based shear proportions confer a knowledge of internal strength via language manipulation on the order of terminology overload.

Furthermore, this formulaic approach has some merits in that, much like the hand-holding-holistic-IS-in-nature approach, it allows me the ability to "belong" to the internal strength discussion, but insulates me from being on the hook to actually show someone that I can do what I say.

AND THAT'S NOT ALL ..

In all of these cases, I can appeal to an authority greater than myself . . Look!! Internal Power is in NATURE!!! No, YOU look, Internal Power is in the case studies of human anatomy, SEE??? No, No, No, You fools!! Internal Power is best described by adding scientific layers of descriptors so that it can be completely wrapped and encompassed with pneumatics.

Upon reconsideration, and after thoroughly reviewing your algorithm for a full two minutes I think it serves as an excellent introduction to internal strength, taking it a step further, perhaps talking about how manipulating the angle of incidence via gyrations such that the angle of transference results in everything from nullification in space, to a broad dissipation over multiple surfaces versus a single surface and then borrowing the force to amplify via returning it. Then the metacarpal connective shear to center mass can result in a controlling CPU governor that elicits a continuous stream of system overriding inputs and outputs.

By Jove, I think we're cracking this nut!!

(or at least something's cracked . .)

Patrick Hutchinson
08-05-2010, 10:18 AM
Personally, I'd split his nose open wiv a boathook.

DH
08-05-2010, 10:37 AM
Furthermore, this formulaic approach has some merits in that, much like the hand-holding-holistic-IS-in-nature approach, it allows me the ability to "belong" to the internal strength discussion, but insulates me from being on the hook to actually show someone that I can do what I say.
Wait! Are you suggesting that you should actually be able to ask someone who continues to butt in on IP/aiki threads to demonstate what they are talking about and be held to the same standards others were and it not be considered a personal attack??????
Are you sure about that? I have seen people ask in the most polite and straight forward manner and it was not well received by the ones being questioned. In fact I have seen it result in personal attacks on the questioners themselves, including public discussion of their wives and family members..
Were you correct, your idea would be ourageous!
Think of how:
fair
even-handed
open-minded
honest
and straightforward that would be; just to ask for them to show, then go to dinner and talk?
We might end up with people involving themselves in IP/ aiki discussions who actually had input that had meaning. and....and...
OMG!! We might even end with more people becoming life long friends!! You know, like you see in Budo!
Budd.... you're having me on aren't you? :D
Dan

Budd
08-05-2010, 10:37 AM
Personally, I'd split his nose open wiv a boathook.

That path to internal power smells fishy . .

DH
08-05-2010, 10:44 AM
That path to internal power smells fishy . .

All beings have natural internal power.....and orifices too. The question remains; do cows have more internal power than carnivores? And who affects the other beings in a greater manner. The internal power of trees enervates the planet and all the other shining beings in ways others do not!
I'm overcome I have to hug my willow.:D
Dan

Cady Goldfield
08-05-2010, 11:37 AM
You guys are killin' me. Not-So-Silent-But-Deadly.
I'll have to stay tuned to this thread for the next episode of "The Orifice!"
:D

Budd
08-05-2010, 11:46 AM
All beings have natural internal power.....and orifices too. The question remains; do cows have more internal power than carnivores? And who affects the other beings in a greater manner. The internal power of trees enervates the planet and all the other shining beings in ways others do not!
I'm overcome I have to hug my willow.:D
Dan

In this model all become one individually at the same time through mutual consumption, absorption and emmission through alpha and omega orifices . . which as everyone will tell you, are the natural nexuses for internal power (infinite) . . :eek:

Budd
08-05-2010, 11:47 AM
You guys are killin' me. Not-So-Silent-But-Deadly.
I'll have to stay tuned to this thread for the next episode of "The Orifice!"
:D

*sez in best Steve Carell-as-Michael-Scott voice*

"That's what she emitted . ."

Patrick Hutchinson
08-05-2010, 11:49 AM
Ok Budd, now I understand why your affiliation is listed as "currently solo"...

Budd
08-05-2010, 12:03 PM
Ok Budd, now I understand why your affiliation is listed as "currently solo"...

I know, the button pushing and odd humor (and other) are best done through solo training . .

Budd
08-05-2010, 12:11 PM
Ok Budd, now I understand why your affiliation is listed as "currently solo"...

I know, the button pushing and odd humor (and other) are best done through solo training . . lots and lots of solo training. Mattafact, I'm taking a break from dojos altogether and the next place is likely just gonna be a MMA gym for a spell. Then we'll see if I get motivated to start my own group.

DH
08-05-2010, 12:13 PM
We are just addressing non....sense, with nonsense.

I knew a good teacher who ended years...even decades of flat out B.S. with one word...."show!"...it has been my experience so far...that very, very, few can. Hence the outrageous objections. It's all rather transparent.
Dan

Lee Salzman
08-05-2010, 01:23 PM
We are just addressing non....sense, with nonsense.

I knew a good teacher who ended years...even decades of flat out B.S. with one word...."show!"...it has been my experience so far...that very, very, few can. Hence the outrageous objections. It's all rather transparent.
Dan

Dangerous precedent, though, fighting noise with noise, since both sides can escalate that game, right or wrong, and since people will just entirely tune out of reading anything anymore. If that's the goal, to get people to stop reading threads on aikiweb, then maybe it is working. :p Pretty much the entire reason I stopped reading RSF and just check the seminar announcements there at best.

Poor original poster just wanted some info, and I'd hope the average aikiweb poster is smart enough to distinguish bullshido from relevant advice. New-age hocus pocus or brainiac wankery is obvious. How many people in this thread bothered to refer the guy to places where he could see the people doing the showing?

Budd
08-05-2010, 01:38 PM
I gave the best advice I could give the fellow, which is "Go see what people are doing" ..

Rob Watson
08-05-2010, 02:14 PM
The internal power of trees enervates the planet and all the other shining beings in ways others do not!
I'm overcome I have to hug my willow.:D
Dan

Channeling the Lorax?

Everyone knows that viruses, bacteria and fungus are the repository of internal power (sometimes confused with midicloriains). Those puss filled swellings are the physical manifestations of uncontrolled and impure power transfers from the microscopic to the macroscopic realm. The only one true method for controlled transfer of power spanning the many realms is by maintaining the purity of our precious bodily fluids (rain water and pure grain alcohol help tremendously - hot sake is a close second). The practice of misogi is precisely the purification and smooth flow of the precious bodily fluids to enable and ensure efficient power transfer across the many realms. Duh.

Budd
08-05-2010, 03:02 PM
Channeling the Lorax?

Everyone knows that viruses, bacteria and fungus are the repository of internal power (sometimes confused with midicloriains). Those puss filled swellings are the physical manifestations of uncontrolled and impure power transfers from the microscopic to the macroscopic realm. The only one true method for controlled transfer of power spanning the many realms is by maintaining the purity of our precious bodily fluids (rain water and pure grain alcohol help tremendously - hot sake is a close second). The practice of misogi is precisely the purification and smooth flow of the precious bodily fluids to enable and ensure efficient power transfer across the many realms. Duh.

Don't you get an added chi boost when you add flouride to the fluid? Though there is a risk of nuclear impacts when too much is applied improperly to the military mind.

Rob Watson
08-05-2010, 05:17 PM
add flouride? nuclear

Actually adding fluoride (SnF) to the water is a waste (direct application of flouride to the teeth is one thing). I prefer my flouride in the form of liquid thorium + salt in a nuclear reactor (http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2009/12/01/how-a-liquid-fluoride-thorium-reactor-lftr-works/). I would not add that to the water either... especially since none is required. But this is more along the lines of external power and not relevant to the OP.

Not to mention the Sn+ ions from the dissociation of SnF in the blood stream tends to occlude the Ca++ ion channels in cells (thus reducing energy flow efficiency) as well as F- occluding NO- receptors in the brain which leads to distorted proprioceptive sensations that also reduces the efficiency of power expression. All part of the communist conspiracy to misdirect the western understanding of internal power as well as the corruption of our precious bodily fluids. See, science does help explain IP/IS/Aiki, etc - no shear required!

gregstec
08-05-2010, 06:07 PM
OK.. So I'm getting inspired by all that 'internal power' stuff.

Whatever it is, I'm open to seeking it out and experimenting with whatever I find, and that's exactly why I've made this thread.

With that said, I'm curious as to what kinds of cultivating methods are out there, what they teach, what they do, and why.
So I'd love some feedback on those things. Just to get some reference materials as to what training opportunities I should look out for, what the specific parts in my own training are that I should look out for, and just to get a broad overview of what this thing really is, what it can do, and why I should look out for it.

Also, since I do know about the IHTBF rule, you won't need to point it out to me :p. I'm not here to ask for the nitty-gritty details about this internal power stuff because I don't have an illusion about figuring this stuff out for myself. I will get round to feeling it.

As for the final question: what practice has benefitted you personally? What things should I look out for? What things should I experiment with and seek out, in your opinion? And, of course, why?

Now, I realize this may be a bit much to answer, so feel free to leave out whatever question you want...
...except for the 'why'-questions :p I'd say those are more than essential ;)

Sincerely yours,

TB

Tim,

I believe some of us owe you an apology for the obvious hijacking of your thread. Your original post has some good questions and came across as sincere - so, for my part, I apologize for the direction it has gone.

On the serious side, your best option for finding answers to your questions is to search the archives here for info on aiki and Internal skills - you will find tons of it. Next you need to intuitively shift through the BS and real stuff and start to formulate your own thoughts on what is going on, Then, as been subtly as well as bluntly pointed out, you need to get with those that have experience in this area to learn more - there is just no internet learning of this stuff.

After you went through the archive, you will have a good idea of who you may want to learn more from - and at that point, seek out these individuals privately through a PM; you probably will get more detail that way since an answer to a public post will be watered down to help minimize the chance of an attack from those of a dissimilar IT camp, etc. - after you read the archives, you will know what I mean here :)

Anyway, sorry for the derailment of your thread and good luck in your quest for more knowledge and experience in aiki.

Greg

Rob Watson
08-05-2010, 06:38 PM
I believe some of us owe you an apology for the obvious hijacking of your thread. ...search the archives

Here are a few ... also look up the baseline skills thread.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16994
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17902
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16713
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17018
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16870
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16503

As you may come to find out hijacks and drift are frequent so don't feel as though anyone has been singled out for special treatment (except for those obviously that have been).

dps
08-06-2010, 06:56 AM
All paths lead to internal power. It is with you all the time.

Read what is the current research into the inner workings of the human body.

http://www.anatomytrains.com/ is a good place to start.

David

Also www.floatingbones.com,
http://floatingbones.com/?p=28#more-28.

David

DH
08-06-2010, 07:38 AM
David Skaggs wrote:
All paths lead to internal power. It is with you all the time.

Read what is the current research into the inner workings of the human body.
http://www.anatomytrains.com/ is a good place to start.

Also www.floatingbones.com,
http://floatingbones.com/?p=28#more-28.

David

David
I thought this might help you on your journey to discovering IP/Aiki.

http://www.mindnmuscle.com/

Think of it like a favor in kind for the accuracy with which you are leading others in their own search. May you get as much out of it as the other material you keep pointing everyone to.
Good luck in your training. Send us before and after pictures.
And remember, David...
"All paths lead to internal power, it's with you all the time..."
"All paths lead to internal power, it's with you all the time..."
"All paths lead to internal power, it's with you all the time..."
Don't forget to click your heels three times!
Dan

Budd
08-06-2010, 07:58 AM
Dammit, no fair making me snort coffee through my nose so early!!

Good points from Greg and Rob on thread drift and circling back . . I think not taking yourself too seriously does help quite a bit with lots of things (IS/IP, aiki, life, etc.) . . Dan, I think if you click your heels three times while chanting "All paths lead to internal power" . . a house is gonna fall on you from out of the sky . .

The other thing worth mentioning is that of those practicing "this stuff", there are different emphases . . a number of people will say, "it ain't all the same" . . I agree with that, but I also refuse to put too much value judgement on what path might be right for you or others as that's an individual decision made with the best info you can get access to. Really, getting anywhere with "this stuff" requires a tremendous amount of drive and intelligence (from the "figuring it out" standpoint).

Just a couple of quick examples . . there's people working on IS as a discrete skill and then applying it back to their "base" martial art. There's others that get the IS as the fundamental core of their martial art, but it's layered with the forms and shapes of said art. I am somewhat jaded right now regarding how well any "methodology" actually works for some versus others. I keep thinking that there's so much on the individual (talent, drive, etc.) in getting this skillset - beyond just having access to the information.

Time will tell, though, since more and more people are openly (or on the side, within more public organizations) working on "this stuff". My own little quest will be seeing how well my "stuff" fits back into the MMA paradigm . . just for fun. Otherwise, as we keep repeating - give just a little weight to what you read on the internet - GO SEE WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING. If they can't answer a simple "SHOW ME" test, then you are best moving on.

mickeygelum
08-06-2010, 08:14 AM
Before and after pictures...WOW....:D

While we are bringing up interesting reads...this is quite enlightening, specifically post #30 of the thread.

http://e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35461&page=2

Think of it like a favor in kind for the accuracy with which you are leading others in their own search. May you get as much out of it as the other material you keep pointing everyone to.

I could have not said it better, Dan...Thank you very much!

Cheers!

DH
08-06-2010, 08:56 AM
Before and after pictures...WOW....:D
While we are bringing up interesting reads...this is quite enlightening, specifically post #30 of the thread.

http://e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35461&page=2
I could have not said it better, Dan...Thank you very much!

Cheers!
You are very welcome, It's really rather wonderful how that all panned out, I have some really great friends in the right places, that tend to mitigate nonsense.
What's that old saying "Sit by the river long enough and you will see the bodies of your enemies float by" It's great to not even have to lift a hand.... Budo can be great ya know?

I must say personally I found post #23 more interesting. I wonder why...in all of his experiences that person never felt anyone he was familiar with or affiliated with ever display anything that equaled what he found?
Why do you think that is?

Its good you brought that thread up though.
Isn't it great that the internet can let honest evaluation of people's skills trump the back door dealing of small minded teachers?
In the old days we only had word-of-mouth at the dojo, or maybe in a magazine. These days no one can hide. It's pretty cool when hundreds of people from MMA to JMA to ICMA can all talk about their experiences with certain people, and there is not one credible retort that can be offered, Back biting and petty behavior tends to get outed in open discussions ya know?
I think it's a great day when web sites can offer so much personal testimony by a wide range of credible people to help others on their own search.

Case in point here: IP/aiki and real power.
It's just very....very hard to find people with real power and skill. It's why some people are no longer affiliated with certain organizations, they've found people better than the best they had to offer, others just found a better way to train and don't want to be held back by teachers with closed minds and limited skill. Personally, I prefer people stay in their organizations as they learn IP/aiki. I continue to ask the various teachers that I am involved with to stay in their arts and teach their students and to overall improve the arts. It's always troubling to teach students and see teachers not be able to handle honest comparisons though. I have seen it more than a few times. I think its to be expected though; egos are a fragile thing.
It was nice to hear someone like Chiba and Saotome offer support to their students, even after the students told them this was a superior method to learn aiki. Now there...is confidence and an open mind! I am sure that others are setting good examples as well.
Anyway, always good to read your thoughts, I hope things end as well for you as they have for others who share your mindset. Get to the gym and keep going strong. Good luck in your training.

Remember the admonition "What goes round, comes round...." Helping others and being straight-up is a good way to go, it's worked out VERY well for me.
Cheers
Dan

Buck
08-06-2010, 09:24 AM
Out of respect for the original poster asking a question, and because this thread has gone on a vacation, I have a comment about the topic.
I am guessing the original poster is has left the thread. Here it is anyway.

Many of us believe in obtaining knowledge through research, and critical thinking. A huge part of modern advancement is a result of research and critical thinking. And there is a model to do just that. A good approach to finding paths, if you see obtaining internal power as an object, the researching the history is vital.

The Chinese really coined this idea of internal and external power based on the model the world works in of polar opposites, which is expressed as yin and yang. And internal power is a term they coined to express, in my opinion, physics principles applied to their CMA. For example, many ancient Chinese authors and Japanese authors readily recognized such principles of physics to be effective, and efficient. That is demonstrated in the Tai Chi Classics, and has been attributed to the Chinese philosopher Lao Tzu. Mimamoto Mushishi noted and wrote about using internal power, and it's definition. All of which can be seen as physics, which are not readily recognized. Hence are identified as"internal."

With this in mind, if one holds to the idea that internal power is an object, then a path to internal power is research. A good place to start always is with the recognized experts. Martial arts is hard to identify a qualified expert as there are few institutions that take martial arts enough to award research degrees. Most people are self proclaimed experts in this regard. Not all self claimed experts are full of it. The ones full of it really out number those who aren't. Point being it is a mine field that takes sometime and effort to find the one's who are really in the "know." And as I said before, if it is possible, start a search the questions by getting recommendations within the Chinese community. Go to Tai Chi tournaments and hang out talk to people in understanding what the term internal arts means and doesn't mean, research it. This can lead to who are the good resources to answer any questions.

Also try Tai Chi schools, but major caveat is there are allot hokey people out there teaching some really weird stuff they call internal. They are usually selling you really hard, trying to convince internal arts are they way they see it, and their students are beyond reasonable and demonstrate fanaticism. And avoid those "colorful,"fanatical and strong opinionated ego personalities. Humble, and down to earth personalities who are not trying to sell you some, or are overly evangelical, or trying to suck you into their B.S., is an ear mark that you will get, at worse, some decent information.

Also of course, pedigree helps as well, but again it is easy to talk and hard to prove. I have had guys tell me they are the 35th grandmaster of _______. They aren't. So these people of course are just as unreliable in their information. Even though they might have some nuggets of accurate and solid information, but that is usually bait to attract students who will worship them and feed their egos. But you will get those nuggets anyway when taking to someone who is in the know, and doesn't lie, patchworks their background or self proclaimed.

When researching internal power and all that it entails isn't easy and you have to sift through allot of crappy people to get to a decent one who will give you good information. But also it helps to read up on the subject, books good and bad, to help you in your research.

This has been my experience and I hope by sharing it will be helpful.

DH
08-06-2010, 10:01 AM
Dammit, no fair making me snort coffee through my nose so early!!

Good points from Greg and Rob on thread drift and circling back . . I think not taking yourself too seriously does help quite a bit with lots of things (IS/IP, aiki, life, etc.) . . Dan, I think if you click your heels three times while chanting "All paths lead to internal power" . . a house is gonna fall on you from out of the sky . .
Reading some of this stuff is like watching good "stand-ups" on You Tube idn't it? It is really funny seeing people play their own "straight man" and not even know as it's happening.:D

The other thing worth mentioning is that of those practicing "this stuff", there are different emphases . . a number of people will say, "it ain't all the same" . . I agree with that, but I also refuse to put too much value judgement on what path might be right for you or others as that's an individual decision made with the best info you can get access to. Really, getting anywhere with "this stuff" requires a tremendous amount of drive and intelligence (from the "figuring it out" standpoint).

Just a couple of quick examples . . there's people working on IS as a discrete skill and then applying it back to their "base" martial art. There's others that get the IS as the fundamental core of their martial art, but it's layered with the forms and shapes of said art. I am somewhat jaded right now regarding how well any "methodology" actually works for some versus others. I keep thinking that there's so much on the individual (talent, drive, etc.) in getting this skillset - beyond just having access to the information.

Time will tell, though, since more and more people are openly (or on the side, within more public organizations) working on "this stuff". My own little quest will be seeing how well my "stuff" fits back into the MMA paradigm . . just for fun. Otherwise, as we keep repeating - give just a little weight to what you read on the internet - GO SEE WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING. If they can't answer a simple "SHOW ME" test, then you are best moving on.
Good points.
Personally, I'm for the MMA and modern weapons side of things, but there are some things worth pointing out between old and new. There is a universality to certain methods that will transfer from classical weapons, to empty hand, to various aiki arts....that can go on to modern combatives and modern weapons. Not all methods can do that and not everyone can even explain why they can't. I look at certain methods and the way they are training their body and you simply cannot move that way seemlessly between various venues. It just isn't open for discussion. There are ways to move the body that are internal that are NOT the same and are NOT universal in external expression.
I had this discussion recently with someone doing spear shaking who thought it was supposed to always be this particular store and release method he learned. I showed him something totally different that still generated power out to the tip, but then had it reverse on itself and go in an opposite direction so fast he had no chance. I later used the same body method to cut right through in a twin stick movement...there was nothing he could do to stop it from happening. he was just open to attacks no matter how "hard" he tried to block. It was not obvious how it was happening and what was causing it, and when I said the essence was in how I was moving with the spear he was still not getting it, when I showed the body changes,,,he got that, but could not reproduce it or join it with the external movements that produced the spirals in the sticks. It takes a re-education of how you move

Overall, if someone is not conversant in traditional weapons, jujutsu, MMA and modern weapons, than I'm not really interested in their opinions on what is the best methodology to use in all those venues. I will listen to their methods, feel them, talk shop, but I have seen and felt true internal experts not be able to handle certain things enough times that I look at them the same way I look at Daito ryu and Aikido "experts." that is that by staying in their arts, they have limited their own development and views -to those arts. Not really a bad thing, but it just...is what it is.
So when some argue that training for whole body connection is all the same, I just say. "No...it isn't."
Cheers
Dan

Buck
08-06-2010, 10:24 AM
Oh and the last thing, I forgot to mention, understand that "internal____" is an abstract term, that you will not get a specific universal definition outside of the general notion it is something that goes readily unnoticed that elicits a desired result. Knowing what external is helps define internal. And it is my feeling the term internal came about as I said before, in relation to Chi; the Chinese observation of physics explained in their language. Ch being indicated by it's character that depicts a process of steam coming from a boiling pot of water moving the lid. Then it tends to get exponentialy more complicated, complex with changes, layered, and with other influences ornamenting the subject as time when on in the Chinese arts. Because it is an abstract idea.

"Internal ____" as we speak of them in martial arts origins are Chinese and the concept has been around for thousands of years, practiced by millions over those thousands of years. Volumes of have been written about it. There is nothing to discover or new information at this point in time, all of what we hear today is recycled information colored in many tints and hues. When dealing with the internal stuff, understand it is all been done, but like may things each new generation rediscovers what the previous generations have mastered.

I am not saying "internal ______" is or isn't anything. I am saying it's like fire. Not because Musashi put "internal" processes in his book of fire. Which I think was for a reason to how he seen internal applications. But because fire is seductive. When anything is seductive you have to be careful not to get burned.

Budd
08-06-2010, 11:35 AM
Reading some of this stuff is like watching good "stand-ups" on You Tube idn't it? It is really funny seeing people play their own "straight man" and not even know as it's happening.:D

Yeah, I just take it with a grain or two most times and don't get too worked up either way. Sometimes, I am surprised that people feel the need to comment when clearly they haven't a clue, but for the most part I can give it the weight it deserves in retention.

Good points.
Personally, I'm for the MMA and modern weapons side of things, but there are some things worth pointing out between old and new. There is a universality to certain methods that will transfer from classical weapons, to empty hand, to various aiki arts....that can go on to modern combatives and modern weapons. Not all methods can do that and not everyone can even explain why they can't. I look at certain methods and the way they are training their body and you simply cannot move that way seemlessly between various venues. It just isn't open for discussion. There are ways to move the body that are internal that are NOT the same and are NOT universal in external expression.

I hear you. For me it comes back to what your goals are and what is available AND what gives you some measurable results. I think people are quick to build belief systems based on limited information combined with bits of what they're predisposed to believe already - it's just human nature. It gets harder and harder to apply objective measurement where yourself is concerned (at least it is for me). So you do the best you can. I enjoyed the bit of classical weapons I had involvement with, but found too much "other" baggage that competed with other parts of life.

As for the "isn't open for discussion", I can't speak to it because I'm not credible enough to offer a yay/nay so won't even try. And from my hands on time with you, you are credible enough that I'd at least want to see what you're talking about in person before really having an opinion about it one way or another.

I had this discussion recently with someone doing spear shaking who thought it was supposed to always be this particular store and release method he learned. I showed him something totally different that still generated power out to the tip, but then had it reverse on itself and go in an opposite direction so fast he had no chance. I later used the same body method to cut right through in a twin stick movement...there was nothing he could do to stop it from happening. he was just open to attacks no matter how "hard" he tried to block. It was not obvious how it was happening and what was causing it, and when I said the essence was in how I was moving with the spear he was still not getting it, when I showed the body changes,,,he got that, but could not reproduce it or join it with the external movements that produced the spirals in the sticks. It takes a re-education of how you move

No argument there in terms of it being a combination of re-wiring how the body moves - AS WELL as a methodology for applying those movements into a combative paradigm. I think that's at the heart of what you're saying, that there's a better way to combine a number of things. I say, cool, let's vet it out some more and see.

I think part of the issue is that some people work on "internal" stuff solely through the exercises they're doing (pole shaking, receiving pushes, etc.) and specifically aren't looking at the bigger picture of changing the body so that stuff just happens. What I struggle with now is the appropriate layers of testing to make sure the body is conditioned and adapting accordingly - hence my decision to say, "Eff it, I'll just go fight with it and see what happens" . .

Overall, if someone is not conversant in traditional weapons, jujutsu, MMA and modern weapons, than I'm not really interested in their opinions on what is the best methodology to use in all those venues. I will listen to their methods, feel them, talk shop, but I have seen and felt true internal experts not be able to handle certain things enough times that I look at them the same way I look at Daito ryu and Aikido "experts." that is that by staying in their arts, they have limited their own development and views -to those arts. Not really a bad thing, but it just...is what it is.
So when some argue that training for whole body connection is all the same, I just say. "No...it isn't."
Cheers
Dan

I dunno, your first sentence can straddle the edge of, "If someone doesn't understand exactly what I do and why I do it" versus "If someone doesn't agree with me" to the point of excluding good input (but hey, you need to apply filters somewhere) . . I think being credibly challenged on ideas and perspectives is a very good thing in reasonable doses.

But then to your other point regarding taking things back to organizations, etc. I just don't seem to play well in them, so will have to be hoofing it to do my own vetting anyways. All bums on the budo bus, right?

As for whether or not training whole body connection all being the same or not - logically it would not be as even different practitioners of the same stuffs have different feels. The simple version for IS seems to be whether or not 1) You have an unusual form of strength/power 2) How do you train it 3) How do you apply it . . beyond that, it gets even more individualized, I'd wager.

Rev.K. Barrish
08-06-2010, 11:51 AM
Hello Aikido list members,

I hope everyone is really enjoying the Summer season with family and Aiki friends and also guarding their health during the high heat.

re: internal power, may I add a few words from the perspective of the Jinja Shinto. This is from the teaching of Sarutahiko Okami that Kaiso received from Tsubaki Okami Yashiro in Mie, Japan.

MYO HO JIGEN JINPEN JINTSURIKI

妙法 Myoho: it is to understand Kannagara. Kannagara is the law of the Great Nature. We human beings can receive infinite courage, power and wisdom by resonating with and progressing in harmony with the ceaseless movement of the Great Nature.

示現 Jigen: Ji is to indicate and gen is to manifest. It mean to practice correctly the way of Kannagara. This means to respect the life you received from your ancestors and revere the kami (generative force of Nature), and to practice and hand down correctly Kyozon Kyoei/ co-existence and co-prosperity. This is the method to receive inspiration and power from Nature/Kami and to achieve good result.

神変 Jinpen: It means that, the Great Spirit of the kami enters into a body of those who are genuinely doing best and it’s effect actually appears in one’s action. 神 kami should be pronounced as Shin and 神力 should be pronounced as shinriki. When it’s divine power appears through the human body, the pronunciation should be as jinriki and an effect of Jinriki is called as 神通力, Jintsuriki. This change to a sonant from a resonance means actual embodiment of the kami power.

神通力 Jintsuriki: It does not sound as Shintsuriki. Sarutahiko Okami (Kami of KI, Aiki Oyagami/ancestor kami) is the kami with mysterious power of Jinpen and it is tha kami that manifests us infinitely this Jintsuriki. We seriously hope to become a person with Jointsuriki, who is capable of catching the power of the kami by a whole body.

********************************************************

If this sounds interesting and you are near the Pacific Northwest please consider to visit Kannagara Aiki training at Tsubaki Grand Shrine of America www.Kannagara.org -- if you are in California please consider the August 20-21-22 Seventh Annual Kings Beach CA (on Lake Tahoe) Seminar hosted by Matsuba Dojo matsubadojo@yahooo.com and Jason House Sensei (503) 546-9388 ...we can explore the meaning and historical context of this teaching in some depth.

yoroshiku onegaishimasu

Koichi Barrish

Senior Shinto Priest

America Tsubaki Okami Yashiro

www.Tsubakishrine.org

DH
08-06-2010, 12:42 PM
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Overall, if someone is not conversant in traditional weapons, jujutsu, MMA and modern weapons, than I'm not really interested in their opinions on what is the best methodology to use in all those venues. I will listen to their methods, feel them, talk shop, but I have seen and felt true internal experts not be able to handle certain things enough times that I look at them the same way I look at Daito ryu and Aikido "experts." that is that by staying in their arts, they have limited their own development and views -to those arts. Not really a bad thing, but it just...is what it is.
So when some argue that training for whole body connection is all the same, I just say. "No...it isn't."
Cheers
Dan


Budd writes: I dunno, your first sentence can straddle the edge of, "If someone doesn't understand exactly what I do and why I do it" versus "If someone doesn't agree with me" to the point of excluding good input (but hey, you need to apply filters somewhere) . . I think being credibly challenged on ideas and perspectives is a very good thing in reasonable doses.
Hi Budd, only a quick reply for now

Its really not a matter of whether or not someone agrees with me or not. Its a question of what they themselves can do and understand..The key point is that if they are not conversant in all those methodologies, than they really are only guessing aren't they? They may even by right here or there, but they don't really know. Worse when I have them do certain things with and without weapons, and they simply can't, or I up the anti from simple grappling, Aikido, Daito ryu, Karate or push hands to a more presssured environment and they fall apart. I can't help but form opinions. Even more so when I have them work on moving and training the way I do and Viola!!...they start to do some things.... across the board.
I dunno, Budd... it makes me form opinions...shrug.

For those that are conversant cross the board, and I think it is extremely rare, they can see things others can't. That does not disclude or dismiss new information or ideas! Not in the least! Which is why I said
"I will listen to their methods, feel them, talk shop..."
It's just that I will reserve judgment on what is ultimately viable across the board and experiment. At some point people need to have a baseline and they might have learned to trust their instincts on certain methods..
As you said "It gets harder to apply an objective review of yourself." I totally agree and for that reason many people in budo never stop...they are never satisfied. Today things are changing; there are more opportunities for all of us. Like so many others I continue to research. One difference may be that not as many take things out for a spin with so many different types of people, but hey...even that is a growing movement!. I am never going to stop doing that and will probably never be satisfied or finished.
These are interesting times..
Cheers
Dan

Budd
08-06-2010, 12:45 PM
Agree with all of that, Dan, even though that isn't significant on it's own - but it's absolutely about the following things in my view as well (and any misunderstanding of what you're saying is mine, but here's how I see it, too):

1) Regardless of what you can say, what can you do?
2) With regards to what you can do, are you ever satisfied with it?

DH
08-06-2010, 01:29 PM
1) Regardless of what you can say, what can you do?
2) With regards to what you can do, are you ever satisfied with it?

And both of those are best judged by others.
1, Best done by competent strangers.
2. By long time friends who will NEVER let you rest on your laurels...if you hold on to any!
Dan

Budd
08-06-2010, 01:34 PM
And both of those are best judged by others.
1, Best done by competent strangers.
2. By long time friends who will NEVER let you rest on your laurels...if you hold on to any!
Dan

Nice . . the competent strangers I'm hoping to find in some MMA gyms. The long time friends in martial arts all seem to want to kick my ass, too . . must be my glowing and nurturing personality . .

thisisnotreal
08-06-2010, 06:39 PM
Hi Mr. Barrish,
Do you mind a few questions?
I am not too clear on your post. Any chance you can interpret this? Or maybe give an example on how to do something with it that leads to internal power? What does 'catching the power of the kami with the whole body mean'?
Cheers,
Josh

DH
08-06-2010, 06:43 PM
Nice . . the competent strangers I'm hoping to find in some MMA gyms. The long time friends in martial arts all seem to want to kick my ass, too . . must be my glowing and nurturing personality . .

That's what a couple of us do...just go to BJJ and MMA gyms. It's nice to be my age and no one knows what to do with ya!
As for martial art friends...well seems everyone I know possesses a razor sharp wit, and for some strange reason they like to "hone it" on me.

I read your comments about organizations and fitting in.
We were talking about this the other day. How many of the best teachers I know have this attitude that they are just one of the boys. They don't even like to consider themselves teachers, they would rather hang out with the guys.

I hate doing seminars and being "That guy" I always wanted to beat up "that guy.":D So I run my seminars and dojo...in such a way that virtually everyone is equal.and on a first name basis.
No teachers, no ranking no B.S. just the skill you can show with your own two hands on an equal playing field.
Some prominent guys have told me that although training here is like graduate school for teachers, the process feels more like being a kid again and sneaking out of the dorm, hanging with the boys and laughing our butts off. It's what they used to love about the martial arts before it got all messy with obligations and having to be professional.
I do budo for fun, I make it fun.
Cheers
Dan

Janet Rosen
08-06-2010, 09:54 PM
...It's what they used to love about the martial arts before it got all messy with obligations and having to be professional.
I do budo for fun, I make it fun.

If we didn't love it and get a lot of joy out of it, why the heck do it? :)
Big mistake lots of people make - and not just in budo - is equating seriousness with pomposity (I'm recalling a priceless decades-old onstage exchange between Pete Seeger and a then young Arlo Guthrie in which the ever-twinkling-eyed Seeger delivers with an otherwise straight face "folk music is serious business")

DH
08-07-2010, 03:16 AM
If we didn't love it and get a lot of joy out of it, why the heck do it? :)
Big mistake lots of people make - and not just in budo - is equating seriousness with pomposity
Hi Kiddo
How true. One of my favorite sayings.
"In lue of substance...you frequently find formality."
Some of the toughest, hardest, people I know...are a laugh a minute! Certain arts tend to attract those overly serious "think they're being Japanese" types more so than others.
(I'm recalling a priceless decades-old onstage exchange between Pete Seeger and a then young Arlo Guthrie in which the ever-twinkling-eyed Seeger delivers with an otherwise straight face "folk music is serious business"
That is priceless, and I think, a lesson that stuck!
"Good mornin America how are ya..."

Cheers
Dan

Budd
08-07-2010, 04:33 AM
Geeze what kind of malcontents are posting at such ridiculous hours of the day, night and morning . . *peers shiftily from side to side* . . (okay, I have a newborn in the house, what's your excuse?)

Seriously, okay, not seriously (why start now in this thread) . . I don't play well with fake and overdone reishiki . . it smacks of cultism and roleplaying to me and rubs me the wrong way . . but sometimes you suck it up when there's goods to be had.

Over time though, the goods I've been looking for seem to have been more accessible (or easily spotted) in places where less attention is paid on the way something's folded or the angle of a bow or . . other trifling stuff that people tend to bring up because they want to put you in your place.

Buck
08-07-2010, 09:31 AM
Hello Aikido list members,

I hope everyone is really enjoying the Summer season with family and Aiki friends and also guarding their health during the high heat.

re: internal power, may I add a few words from the perspective of the Jinja Shinto. This is from the teaching of Sarutahiko Okami that Kaiso received from Tsubaki Okami Yashiro in Mie, Japan.


Thank you for your post I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. I appreciate that now I can walk away from this thread more enriched in my knowledge and understanding. Thank you. :)

DH
08-07-2010, 03:49 PM
Thank you for your post I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. I appreciate that now I can walk away from this thread more enriched in my knowledge and understanding. Thank you. :)
Really?
Explain his post to us.
Dan

Rev.K. Barrish
08-07-2010, 06:43 PM
Hello everyone, sorry for slow reply, Tsubaki America Jinja was very busy all day to receive sanpaisya, so this is my first chance to stop by the computer.

Mr. Burgess, thank you for your kind thinking.

Mr. Philipson, basic meaning of my post was to try to explain from the Jinja Shinto perspective MYO HO JIGEN JIN PEN JINTSURIKI

“妙法 Myoho: it is to understand Kannagara. Kannagara is the law of the Great Nature. We human beings can receive infinite courage, power and wisdom by resonating with and progressing in harmony with the ceaseless movement of the Great Nature.

示現 Jigen: Ji is to indicate and gen is to manifest. It mean to practice correctly the way of Kannagara. This means to respect the life you received from your ancestors and revere the kami (generative force of Nature), and to practice and hand down correctly Kyozon Kyoei/ co-existence and co-prosperity. This is the method to receive inspiration and power from Nature/Kami and to achieve good result.

神変 Jinpen: It means that, the Great Spirit of the kami enters into a body of those who are genuinely doing best and it’s effect actually appears in one’s action. 神 kami should be pronounced as Shin and 神力 should be pronounced as shinriki. When it’s divine power appears through the human body, the pronunciation should be as jinriki and an effect of Jinriki is called as 神通力, Jintsuriki. This change to a sonant from a resonance means actual embodiment of the kami power.

神通力 Jintsuriki: It does not sound as Shintsuriki. Sarutahiko Okami (Kami of KI, Aiki Oyagami/ancestor kami) is the kami with mysterious power of Jinpen and it is tha kami that manifests us infinitely this Jintsuriki. We seriously hope to become a person with Jointsuriki, who is capable of catching the power of the kami by a whole body.”

The basic meaning is that Aikido is a spiritual technology by which a human being can harmonize with and manifest the KI power of Great Nature.

Here is something written by my late teacher, Rev. Yukitaka Yamamoto who was the 96th generation Guji (High Priest) of Tsubaki Grand Shrine in Japan where and installed the Guardian Kami of Aikido in O’Sensei’s Iwama Aiki Jinja:

Master Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, visited Tsubaki grand shrine in spring of 1958, guided by master Michio Hikitsuchi of Kumano Aikido dojo. As soon as master Ueshiba arrived at the shrine, he told me he would practice the misogi (a waterfall purification) at Konryu-Myojin's waterfall of Tsubaki Grand Shrine, and he practiced misogi with me.

Then he participated in a purification ceremony at Haraiden (the Shrine purification hall), and prayed at Honden (the main sanctuary). After I finished reciting the Norito (prayer) he chanted, "Su-U-Ah-Oh-Uh-Eh-Ih" then took the wooden sword and offered several Aikido moves to OhKami. At that time he said, "these are the basics of Aikido. Moves which unite the being with the great nature, all of them given by Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami." He continued, "Aikido is misogi. Misogi of ourselves. Aikido is the way of misogi itself, the way to become Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami and stand on the Ame- no-Ukihashi (the bridge between heaven and earth). In other words, the skills of misogi are Aiki, the way of uniting heaven and earth, the way of world peace, the way of trying to perfect humanity, the way of the Kami, the way of the universe.
He rested at my house and he told me and my father, "I have been given many teachings by Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami. OKami told me, 'By the work of Takehaya Susanowo no Mikoto, you will worship the Ame no Murakumo KuKamisamuhara Ryu O (Kami of Takemusu) and build an Aiki shrine and dojo.' Then I built the Aiki shrine and dojo in Iwama, Ibaragi prefecture in 1940. Since then I have been searching for the main shrine of Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami. I heard Tsubaki Grand Shrine is the main shrine of Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami, so I visited here today."
After that day master Ueshiba visited the shrine many times a year. When he came to the shrine in 1959, he said he would like to enshrine Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami at the Aiki shrine. In July 1960 I, instead of my father, took the Goshintai of Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami (statue of Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami) to the Aiki shrine in Iwama and performed the enshrinement ceremony. I went there with Mr. Shoji Gomi, who made the Goshintai, Mr. Akihide Isokai, and Mr. Masanori Fukuchi, shrine supporters. I remember that day: Master Ueshiba had great joy. It was a big ceremony with many participants, including master Kisshomaru Ueshiba of the Tokyo dojo.
After that he came to the shrine often. He planted a tree by the waterfall of the shrine. That tree remains there today.
I think master Ueshiba's words, "Aikido is misogi" are true. Human beings are born as children of the Kami and can become Kami. Misogi is the practice of uniting with the great nature and uniting with the universe. Of course humans have flesh and blood, but by practicing misogi we can elevate our spirits. At the same time, Aikido misogi is a way of harmonizing heaven and earth, a way of producing harmony and a way of uniting everything with the Kami. In other words, Aikido and misogi erase the mind that fights and and create a heart of harmony, a way of having a heart of Kami and a way of becoming the Kami of Takemusu.
Later, he had a trip to Hawaii. He went to attend the opening of an Aiki dojo. When he returned from Hawaii, he came to the shrine and reported his trip to Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami. He told me that he finished the misogi of Hawaii and showed me the key he had received as an honorary citizen of Honolulu.
In 1967 Mr. Akihide Isokai came to the shrine. At that time master Ueshiba said, "I can't go by myself already. At last the time has come. I would like to give Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami my address." So he sent mr. Isogai instead of himself.
Now I remember these things. These things remain with me, the faith of master Ueshiba and the Ueshiba who became Kami.
I would like to pray that the spirit of master Ueshiba shines on.
I am very glad that we enshrined him as one of the leaders at this Kototama ceremony.

Perhaps more helpful is this quote from Yamamoto Yukitaka Sendai Guji:

“Sarutahiko Okami, the main deity of Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja and Tsubaki OhKami Yashiro is the Kami (divine being) of guidance. The head shrine of Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami, located at the foot of the Mt. Takayama in the Suzuka Mountain Ridge, has been worshipped from ancient time. In 3 B.C., 2000 years ago, in the 27th year of the 11th Emperor Suinin, Tsubaki Grand Shrine was formally established. Therefore Tsubaki O Kami Yashiro is one of the oldest shrines existing in Japan.
When the founder of Aikido, Venerable Morihei Ueshiba, visited Tsubaki O Kami Yashiro - head shrine of Sarutahiko Okami - and made special prayer, the secret of waza was brought forth through the divine revelation. Since then day and night he practiced Misogi Shu Ho to reach the state of unity between the Kami (divine beings) and human beings.
Venerable Morihei Ueshiba cultivated spirituality so profoundly that he created Takemusu Aiki, and he taught the great power and wisdom of Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami to students of Aiki. Later he was able to show Jintsuriki, special divine power. Jintsuriki means that Shinriki - or the ki of the Great nature - is transformed to Jinriki or, actual power or waza, which will be delivered by man after being absorbed and accumulated by man's spirit, mind and body. “

My personal opinion that internal power is natural—when we mix the Ki of Earth, the Ki of Heaven and the Ki of human being in the hara, kokyu comes forth….to have the experience of Aiki we must first cease doing what is not Aiki….by sharpening our senses through Misogi Shuho we can discern what is genuine and what is superfluous/ obstructing. We can then discover for ourselves the meaning of MYO HO JIGEN JIN PEN JINTSURIKI.

Yoroshiku onegaishimasu
K. Barrish
America Tsubaki Okami Yashiro Kannushi

Lorel Latorilla
08-07-2010, 11:30 PM
Once again Tim,

If you want to get some 'internal' power and want to know the path there, go with the guys that're often mentioned here. Dan, Mike, and Ark. If you're in New York, Sam Chin hangs out there. This will avoid all confusion about what bodyskill isl (I don't use the word 'internal power' anymore because it brings the freaks out).

dps
08-08-2010, 06:39 AM
My personal opinion that internal power is natural—when we mix the Ki of Earth, the Ki of Heaven and the Ki of human being in the hara, kokyu comes forth….to have the experience of Aiki we must first cease doing what is not Aiki….by sharpening our senses through Misogi Shuho we can discern what is genuine and what is superfluous/ obstructing. We can then discover for ourselves the meaning of MYO HO JIGEN JIN PEN JINTSURIKI.

Yoroshiku onegaishimasu
K. Barrish
America Tsubaki Okami Yashiro Kannushi

Its not that hard to understand once you sweep away the leaves obscuring the path. :)

David

DH
08-08-2010, 07:53 AM
The trouble arises when those who imagine they understand...turn out to be the debris that needs to be swept away so people can actually see the path to those who actually do have an understanding.

This is not anything new, people have talked about it in the aiki arts for years; having to wade through a never ending sea of ner-do-wells looking for teachers who actually have something. I remember dining with a group teachers who were recounting decades of training;
They thought so-and-so was great till they met so-and-so
Then later they met so-and-so who re-defined their understanding yet again..
As their understanding, skills, and exposure, increased, they looked back forlorn at where they had been doing for so many years.
Each one at that table had no idea....none whatsoever...of what they had just encountered even existed, and more so that it could be taught
For this reason alone, those who experience people with skills in this area dismiss the naysayers, out of hand. They remember all to well their own ignorance in struggling to define it with the "ordinary" things they had done for decades..

What defines it... past all definitions of it? It is instantly recognized as not being ordinary and also being able to do it.
It is so unusual and different that no one can hide from being classed as different from ordinary martial arts. And so unusual and different that after several years you can stop any Shihan in the aiki arts; Daito ryu or Aikido and be a handful for most anyone to deal with.

For that reason I default back to my comments to you or anyone else who makes claims that they get it..........
Show!

I say that because if you or anyone else isn't one of those people who will instantly stand out as unusually powerful, yet exceddingly soft, are not at a Shihan level of skill or better (no not ranked, just skill) and can go from weapons to empty hand seamlessly, then you need to ask yourself what value does your opinion have........at all?
I think that is exactly the type of understanding that has been the road block all along; the debris that needs to be swept away, so people can see a clear path?


Should you remain convinced that internal power is natural, and you always had it- where is it?
Of what value is it to anyone?
Seems pretty sketchy (or revealing) to be arguing for and advocating, something so powerful... that after all these years has led you and everyone else, to be so.....ordinary.
No thanks!
Dan

DH
08-08-2010, 08:47 AM
EDIT:
The path
I think another thought worth considering is that there is an ever growing number of those who were going along training, and who encountered various people with internal power and they could instantly tell the difference.
It used to be easy here to debate a single person or two. It is getting to sound a bit strange, almost like you are "out of touch" this late in the game to be doubting the difference. You now have hundreds of people, including shihan in the art who are not only advocating it, they are training it on a regular basis.
a) It's pretty weird to be doubting something so profound that after one encounter it changed the course of men with 40 years on the mat.
b) Weirder still to be arguing without having anything yourself, to offer as a counter point beside an empty theory that by all accounts has led to nothing out of the ordinary. Not that its a bad thing, but arguing for the ordinary,,,is in itself, simply strange..

Again, I would suggest it is probably not a good idea to just talk about Mike , Ark or myself, so often. It's really far bigger than that. Although I must admit, while there are those with skill...check out their students. If they don't have it....walk away.
Who cares about some guy who can "wow" you. We've all been down that road. If he hasn't made really good students, what makes you think you will be any different?
The one thing that might be exceptional (if at all) about the three talked about here so often, is that people are actively and actually being taught things that are making a difference in their Budo, to make THEM unusual in their arts.
I think that is a very important point. Far more important than loooong opinions and complicated mathmatics offered by people who by all acounts have nothing to offer but ordinary skills.
Cheers
Dan

Lee Salzman
08-08-2010, 09:27 AM
Again, I would suggest it is probably not a good idea to just talk about Mike , Ark or myself, so often. It's really far bigger than that. Although I must admit, while there are those with skill...check out their students. If they don't have it....walk away.
Who cares about some guy who can "wow" you. We've all been down that road. If he hasn't made really good students, what makes you think you will be any different?

Easy to start a religion, hard to kill it. Aikido orthodoxy may be one, but Mike-Ark-Dan is its own religion, and listening to some of the hard-line gospel about either can become annoying. But in terms of voting with my feet, you know where my feet have been, so maybe I'm a hypocrite in that respect. :p There's other valuable stuff to learn out there, it doesn't fall neatly into preconceived categories of internal or external or most efficient or most powerful or ideal strategy, taught by people who can show ability, and who can reproduce that ability in students... in fighting venues. But if Mike-Ark-Dan is taken as the end-game, you miss it.

Buck
08-08-2010, 09:35 AM
Hello everyone, sorry for slow reply,
Yoroshiku onegaishimasu
K. Barrish
America Tsubaki Okami Yashiro Kannushi

Thank you Rev.Barrish once again for sharing your in depth knowledge and expertise expounding further this subject. It furthers my understanding of Aikido and its relationship to Shinto, as well as internal power. It also provides me more information I didn't know and will pursue in my continued understanding of Aikido.

Internal power being that of the Asian thought as applied to martial arts and their culture, is a wonderful concept that now I have a greater insight into. I am sure it will be helpful to others also.

Good stuff, thanks again.
:)

Aiki1
08-08-2010, 10:01 AM
Really?
Explain his post to us.
Dan

:) :) :)

The trouble arises when those who imagine they understand...turn out to be the debris that needs to be swept away so people can actually see the path.....


You are So right on here.

Rob Watson
08-08-2010, 01:52 PM
But if Mike-Ark-Dan is taken as the end-game, you miss it.

I think a lot of us still get things confused. There are two very separate things going on ... power and what to do with it (or how to use it). Mr. Salzman is correct in that cultivation of power is not the end game but is a means to the end of the higher goals of aikido (other arts too).

Having the power to make people do what you want (the founders definition of aiki via Adm. Takeshita diary) is a heavy burden and I'm sure the founder was all too aware (my presumption) of the dangers of power intoxication. This may be a heresy but I believe the founders own personal demons are what led him to immerse himself in the esoterica of shinto, kotodama, etc to obtain some measure of control over the demons so they would not use the power for evil.

What do the rest of us do to quell our inner demons once we come to find we have some exceptional power and can influence or outright control people and prevent that spiral into madness that history reveals time and again?

Power kept a secret grows but can become cancerous. Power shared does not diminish but further empowers.Knowledge truly is power and knowledge shared makes us all more powerful and can lead to greater affects for all. We can make nuclear bombs or we can make power plants - all using the same knowledge. It is simply a matter of the choice on how to use the power. What are you working on?

DH
08-08-2010, 02:08 PM
Bah!
I think if anyone immerses themselves in the right types of relationships and give of themselves freely...all will take care of itself.
You want to really get down and be serious, instead of all this rubbish about demons and having too much power and all the other nonsense people add on to teachers that avoids some of the real issues?

Here are some real rubber-meets-the-road ideas to keep a teachers head out of his own backside
1. How about stop believing your own press.
2. How about refusing to be called a teacher.
3. How about when students go on and on about you, you tell them to shut up.
4. How about making fun of yourself at seminars and treat the lowest guy there as your equal.
5. How about actually teaching people aiki
6. How about actually being good at teaching or having the good sense and compassion to quit.
7. How about teaching students to do something, then teach them how to cancel it out
8. How about teaching every single person in the room what they need to be able to stop your technique?
9. How about opening your heart and making friends with your students.

Trust me, if you do all of those things, all of these so called "demons from having to much power" will run for the hills!

There are men who are extremely capable....dangerous even, who are gentle...men. Moral baggage, and ego is just that and has not one thing to do with capabilities. No one...not one, should accept that B.S. from anyone. Knowing a better way to cut wood, or a better way to dance, (and martial arts are no better, and sometimes less useful than that) is no excuse for some of the ourageous nonsense that sometimes happens. Lending a helping hand to a student... as your equal... is self-correcting behavior that will keep you firmly in your place...their equal! :)
Cheers
Dan

Rob Watson
08-08-2010, 02:28 PM
Bah!
I think if anyone immerses themselves in the right types of relationships and give of themselves freely...all will take care of itself.

As much as I wish and hope for this to be true in my experience it does not take care of itself but has to be actively worked on above and beyond the points otherwise made. Maybe I'm just lucky that way.

Lee Salzman
08-08-2010, 02:31 PM
I think a lot of us still get things confused. There are two very separate things going on ... power and what to do with it (or how to use it). Mr. Salzman is correct in that cultivation of power is not the end game but is a means to the end of the higher goals of aikido (other arts too).

Having the power to make people do what you want (the founders definition of aiki via Adm. Takeshita diary) is a heavy burden and I'm sure the founder was all too aware (my presumption) of the dangers of power intoxication. This may be a heresy but I believe the founders own personal demons are what led him to immerse himself in the esoterica of shinto, kotodama, etc to obtain some measure of control over the demons so they would not use the power for evil.

What do the rest of us do to quell our inner demons once we come to find we have some exceptional power and can influence or outright control people and prevent that spiral into madness that history reveals time and again?

Power kept a secret grows but can become cancerous. Power shared does not diminish but further empowers.Knowledge truly is power and knowledge shared makes us all more powerful and can lead to greater affects for all. We can make nuclear bombs or we can make power plants - all using the same knowledge. It is simply a matter of the choice on how to use the power. What are you working on?

I don't think I was trying to be that deep, and was just trying to echo something Dan said, so rather you mean to say Dan was correct. :) It's more like: if you're analytic about what performance is and what improvement is, then the best way doesn't obsolete better-but-not-best ways if they still get you above baseline, or may interact in other more interesting ways than when taken alone. If everyone trains the same material the same exact way, what fun is that? :p The public MMA gyms here in Vegas seem to be effective enough at teaching newbies how to badly injure eachother within a short amount of time, so I'm not too worried about power demons haunting me from what little I practice.

Rob Watson
08-08-2010, 02:46 PM
I don't think I was trying to be that deep, and was just trying to echo something Dan said, so rather you mean to say Dan was correct. :)

I often read too much into that which lays between the lines (we all have our special talents). The only quibble I have with Mr. Harden is how to insinuate myself into the barn.

DH
08-08-2010, 02:50 PM
As much as I wish and hope for this to be true in my experience it does not take care of itself but has to be actively worked on above and beyond the points otherwise made. Maybe I'm just lucky that way.
Well, I totally agree with that.
That's what I meant to imply. It is in the nature of all good relationships (provided they are with healthy people) that if everyone remains as equals, things tend to be self-correcting. Sort of like the big shot movie star coming home to thanksgiving and Christmas.

Good friends and family and making training open and friendly can prevent a lot of potential craziness. I should have added one more item to the teacher list

1. Demand they go out and train with others...hopefully someone better than yourself..in what ever.

That will also help them...keep you on your toes and in the proper focus. No finer words are better than "Well you're good ...but!" ;)
Cheers
Dan

DH
08-08-2010, 02:58 PM
I often read too much into that which lays between the lines (we all have our special talents). The only quibble I have with Mr. Harden is how to insinuate myself into the barn.
You know about the Barn....?
The barn I sort of keep as a workshop for a group of us to all progressively suck at what we do...some more so than others?:D
For other training though, just ask, and please call me Dan.
I am doing seminars this fall and winter in different places though. I have a list of people I am going to inform when I have things scheduled. Shoot me a P.M. and I will put you on the list.
Cheers
Dan

Budd
08-09-2010, 11:33 AM
Well and this discussion has taken an interesting turn and I think is speaking more towards training for "power" and the ways people can take their power (both "perceived" and "achieved") and use it to lord over others . . whereas the format Dan mentions I think goes a long way to cutting through that BS (and was exactly my experience when I got to play in his barn for an afternoon a few years back).

In my experience, Mike's workshops engender that feeling, too, being somewhat formatted for people interested in a tradecraft approaching comparative methodologies towards desired results rather than martial arts gurudom. I haven't gotten to go to one of Ark's, yet, so can't speak towards it but the descriptions are encouraging.

And yet, I also agree, we need to somewhat move past those three guys in terms of discussion and onto who's "getting it"? Because the rub can be just as much in transmission as in material - what are the guys doing post work-shop and how are you vetting if you are actually getting anywhere versus the "superpowers in your head" syndrome?

Those working on "this stuff" within a martial art - do you find that the "budo" conventions work towards favorably encouraging the development and personal ownership of this kind of training? Are you having to keep it as it's own thing or does it integrate right back into what you're doing?

I think those conversations are as valid towards the "path to internal power" as "where to go to get it" . . for myself, the next couple years are going to be pretty critical in terms of how my progress plays in the less-structured spaces (MMA) as well as how things feel when getting hands on some of the bigger dogs in workshops (most likely opportunities for hands-on time with more "name" Chinese teachers, hopefully).

When I do speak to it, I'm going to try to keep the discussion going according to where my failings might be as well as my successes. Partially because I don't have a dog in trying to be a "tough guy" (validated that as much as I cared to in my 20s), but I am really interested in figuring out for myself how much of this is something I have to burn into myself and pressure test - versus how much can I work out a repeatable methodology that others (part of this theoretical study group I keep threatening to start) may benefit from.

So, Dan (naming you since we've been going back and forth, here) and others - that's where it's coming from when I seem to challenge certain opinions and assumptions - definitely not from a place of perceived authority - but another guy working it out and when in a better position to offer something of value - hopefully give back so some others have an alternative approach to their own training as well.

Though if there are thread drift and digressions of silliness to be had, I will likely partake . . I like me some silly.

DH
08-09-2010, 12:04 PM
Hi Budd
The next group?.........I am on hundreds of people.
Hence my focus on supporting groups...through a process. I could be out doing a whole bunchof show and tell seminars, but I'm just not into that. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Of the big three talked about here most often. I'm the one with the longest history of students who've got not only power...but aiki...and martial skills in using it. I've been doing this a long time and the vetting has worked well in many different venues.
It takes time, but I think Arks guys are delivering...so are some of mine.
cheers
Dan

Budd
08-09-2010, 01:08 PM
Dan, I can only speak to my direct experience in that regard, which ain't a whole lot. I can genuinely say that I would love to get hands on time with people that you've worked with who are really demonstrating skill in aiki and martial skill in its application.

DH
08-09-2010, 02:19 PM
Dan, I can only speak to my direct experience in that regard, which ain't a whole lot. I can genuinely say that I would love to get hands on time with people that you've worked with who are really demonstrating skill in aiki and martial skill in its application.
We will have to see what we can do.
You can talk to several people you know who have felt various members of the old and existing crew and also watched me spar with various MMA guys. Some of the old crew, including some who've been gone for years, stop by to play (I make them teach). Many have had kids and or moved but they still show up here and there right up to last Sat. Andy is thinking of going semi-pro; every place he goes, he does extremely well. I keep trying to talk him out of it.
Anyway, here's the rub, couple of people enjoyed training with them more than me!!:o
Remember what I said about teachers surrounding themselves with good people who keep them on their toes??:D
Dan

Budd
08-09-2010, 02:50 PM
We will have to see what we can do.

Awesome. :D


You can talk to several people you know who have felt various members of the old and existing crew and also watched me spar with various MMA guys.

I heard very good things about Andy that were unsolicited only because I try not to ask for secondhand info, you know (sometimes, I fail, but I'm human)? It's just something where I prefer to get my own hands-on corporate knowledge and that tends to serve me better in the long run. I'm always fine with admitting I don't know what I don't know.


Some of the old crew, including some who've been gone for years, stop by to play (I make them teach). Many have had kids and or moved but they still show up here and there right up to last Sat.

That's how it should be, I think - train 'em up so they can do their own thing - welcome 'em back to the fold when they can visit. Percentage-wise, do you find they stay within the traditional setting (or have brought the stuff from your group to a traditional art) or just kinda do their own thing wherever they can do it?


Andy is thinking of going semi-pro; every place he goes, he does extremely well. I keep trying to talk him out of it.

Is it because of the cumulative punishment you just get over time or are you still trying to get him to play with sticks??


Anyway, here's the rub, couple of people enjoyed training with them more than me!!:o

That's because they probably drink beer like men should instead of those girlie mojitos and gimlets *ducks* :p


Remember what I said about teachers surrounding themselves with good people who keep them on their toes??:D
Dan

Well, yeah and that just seems like a no-brainer when you want to be good (great, even). Fastest way to have a dojo full of skill-less wankers is to cultivate a flock of obsequious yes-persons. There's the traditional hardcore folks with tight reishiki, which is something else . . but I don't think that's what we're talking about - and the denigration of arts into parody starts from layering the BS on top of something absent content to begin with (Dan, where's the quote you like to use . . I keep paraphrasing it).

Howard Popkin
08-09-2010, 03:27 PM
Dude,

You just said "girlie" about Dan's drinks.

AWESOME :)

Howie

DH
08-09-2010, 06:55 PM
Awesome. :D
I heard very good things about Andy that were unsolicited only because I try not to ask for secondhand info, you know (sometimes, I fail, but I'm human)? It's just something where I prefer to get my own hands-on corporate knowledge and that tends to serve me better in the long run. I'm always fine with admitting I don't know what I don't know.
Andy is very...very good, but there are others, a few good ones that come to mind: Pete, Mike, Glen, Richie, Todd, James, Chris, Eric, Danny,...and so on. My overall point of bringing this up was your mentioning the idea of the next generation in regards to IP/aiki I think it was a bit myopic of the aikiweb readership movement. I also really wonder who is teaching just IP and who is really teaching IP/ aiki, and who is teaching Ip/aiki in real combatives, but that's for another day.
I wanted to be clear...many of the new people here mostly teachers in their own right in other arts, have now felt people who trained with me for anywhere from seven to seventeen years. In my case this isn't a new movement. It's old news to me. In fact, many of the new group want to do some the older training methods used; paried jujutsu drills for IP/aiki building, and some other proprietary things we developed ourselves.

That's how it should be, I think - train 'em up so they can do their own thing - welcome 'em back to the fold when they can visit. Percentage-wise, do you find they stay within the traditional setting (or have brought the stuff from your group to a traditional art) or just kinda do their own thing wherever they can do it?
Well I think you are confusing them with the teachers training here now. I never taught them "traditional" anything, so they were not "going back to somebody else." They were my people. We always did MMA and they went out to other schools to test them (selves).;)

Is it because of the cumulative punishment you just get over time or are you still trying to get him to play with sticks??
No, we both have had our share of injuries over the years, broken bones, and what not, that's not it. He has four little girls and a military wife and in my opinion has nothing to prove. I see it as....We've both walked into various groups and done very well....so what's the point? I keep telling him you can go to various places and keep refining under pressure without having to risk finances and also training time away from home from family for a couple of fights a year. Oh well.
Sticks?? Did you say sticks? He loves sticks..twin sticks that is. Speaking of which I have to wrap this up and go teach sticks.
That's because they probably drink beer like men should instead of those girlie mojitos and gimlets *ducks* :p
Uhm...er....uhm...sputter...cough... Girlie? Well, I do have that tender touch!

Well, yeah and that just seems like a no-brainer when you want to be good (great, even). Fastest way to have a dojo full of skill-less wankers is to cultivate a flock of obsequious yes-persons. There's the traditional hardcore folks with tight reishiki, which is something else . . but I don't think that's what we're talking about - and the denigration of arts into parody starts from layering the BS on top of something absent in the content to begin with
(Dan, where's the quote you like to use . . I keep paraphrasing it).

"In lue of substance...you frequently find formality."

It's not a quote though, it's mine. I coined it...apparently after visiting the same places you did; groups that created this stifling, rigid and formal atmosphere; yet could never...on their best day....deliver.... on something that was a martially viable skill set; with weapons and without. Yet remained so convinced that they could!
I can't say why it is..but the more competent the people I meet are, the more down-to-earth, and relaxed, even funny they are about all this budo stuff.

Cheers
Dan

Budd
08-09-2010, 08:33 PM
Andy is very...very good, but there are others, a few good ones that come to mind: Pete, Mike, Glen, Richie, Todd, James, Chris, Eric, Danny,...and so on. My overall point of bringing this up was your mentioning the idea of the next generation in regards to IP/aiki I think it was a bit myopic of the aikiweb readership movement. I also really wonder who is teaching just IP and who is really teaching IP/ aiki, and who is teaching Ip/aiki in real combatives, but that's for another day.

Yeah, no interest in having that argument over the internet, that's an in-person discussion for those that really want to have it - I'm fine saying "I don't know" until I get more info with time. But I do understand your other point regarding myopic aikiweb readership (hey that was me until I got hands on you, then Mike).


I wanted to be clear...many of the new people here mostly teachers in their own right in other arts, have now felt people who trained with me for anywhere from seven to seventeen years. In my case this isn't a new movement. It's old news to me. In fact, many of the new group want to do some the older training methods used; paried jujutsu drills for IP/aiki building, and some other proprietary things we developed ourselves.

No that makes sense and I was trying to be vague since I wasn't sure if you guys were doing any system or your own thing (that I'm not otherwise defining because of its proprietary nature) - but I did mean the old group, rather than the new influx.

Well I think you are confusing them with the teachers training here now. I never taught them "traditional" anything, so they were not "going back to somebody else." They were my people. We always did MMA and they went out to other schools to test them (selves).;)

Fair enough - sounds right and I was definitely just asking rather than violating the first rule of a fight club I don't belong to ;)

No, we both have had our share of injuries over the years, broken bones, and what not, that's not it. He has four little girls and a military wife and in my opinion has nothing to prove. I see it as....We've both walked into various groups and done very well....so what's the point? I keep telling him you can go to various places and keep refining under pressure without having to risk finances and also training time away from home from family for a couple of fights a year. Oh well.

Okay, understood - mine was a lame attempt at humor since I thought you'd mentioned him as one that you couldn't get interested on the "old school" stuffs with the blue uniforms, skirts, etc. . . definitely wasn't commenting beyond that.

Sticks?? Did you say sticks? He loves sticks..twin sticks that is. Speaking of which I have to wrap this up and go teach sticks.

Twin sticks sounds fun, always meant to find some folks that wanted to dance to some FMA, but haven't had the opportunity, yet.

Uhm...er....uhm...sputter...cough... Girlie? Well, I do have that tender touch!

Hahahahaha uh huh . .


"In lue of substance...you frequently find formality."

Bingo, I knew it was yours, just can't seem to remember it exactly, on demand.

It's not a quote though, it's mine. I coined it...apparently after visiting the same places you did; groups that created this stifling, rigid and formal atmosphere; yet could never...on their best day....deliver.... on something that was a martially viable skill set; with weapons and without. Yet remained so convinced that they could!

Belief systems, I wager. Lots of human history gets shaped by belief systems, I believe . . and if someone's martial practice is dependent on me doing x y z, in that order, lower case, with no hyphens, in order to finish the alphabet . . well . .

I can't say why it is..but the more competent the people I meet are, the more down-to-earth, and relaxed, even funny they are about all this budo stuff.


I don't know, either. I think you have to be basically weird to be fascinated endlessly by this stuff . . it's just difficult when you're delusional, psychotic, a control freak, arse, etc. . . (any combination) in addition . . and a number of those types have found refuge in martial arts - particularly when the model for years and years is/has been blind obedience/following . . seems rife for abuse, especially once culturally removed when it has to be learned and pantomimed.

But as far as paths go . . do folks that have come through your doors and since moved on, do any of them have their own groups to propagate things further? Part interest on my part, part looking at models to follow and more data points, etc. And honestly enjoying the discussion as it's evolving. No agenda either way. . I know my role as a seeker and happy to just walk that path for a bit, collecting info as I can.

Enjoy the stick session *jealous*.

DH
08-09-2010, 11:16 PM
Tha was funny about Andy and the stick. I forget the budo people talk and remember...what you said about him not wanting to do the other was correct...I just forgot I told you........:D
All that said he was very good with armor on and freestyling it.
I just got in and I'm beat...having a glass of....grumble ...uhm... beer... and hitting the sack.
Dan

Budd
08-10-2010, 12:01 AM
In the interest of fairness and disclosure . . At a seminar in the April/May timeframe . . I was observed drinking one or two martinis of varying colors (at least one had an umbrella, I'm sure of it) in addition to my manly beers served cold from the tap . . ;)

Okay, not AT the seminar, but at the dinner after one of the days at the seminar . . sheesh . . if there's nitpickers like me out there, that would've been too easy.

Really manly beer, I tell ya, but since they came later darned if I could tell you exactly what they were . .

Bringing this back full circle (or swish, or swig . .YMMV), one of the paths towards developing internal power is to get out and work with people at seminars who are teaching Internal Strength/Power/Martial Arts . . it may have been mentioned a time or two.

*cough cough*

DH
08-10-2010, 10:57 AM
Yeah, no interest in having that argument over the internet, that's an in-person discussion for those that really want to have it - I'm fine saying "I don't know" until I get more info with time. But I do understand your other point regarding myopic aikiweb readership (hey that was me until I got hands on you, then Mike)..
Well I hate wading into that very unpopular and highly prejudicial topic, of IP/aiki and actually being able to fight with it.. It's like trying to debate the beauty of your loved one. You could line up ten thousand objective opinions that will never change the one. There's no winning that debate, neither is there in a review of martial artists.

Most do not have the experience, education and understanding to engage in all aspects of that discussion...but they are convinced they are capable of it...until they meet certain people who truly are, face to face. Thats why I say ten thousand words of debate end when you meet those same people in person, hence the reason the remaining detractors will NEVER.....EVER...meet in person. They know what is going to happen, and it exposes everyones understanding on the spot.

...Belief systems, I wager. Lots of human history gets shaped by belief systems, I believe . . and if someone's martial practice is dependent on me doing x y z, in that order, lower case, with no hyphens, in order to finish the alphabet . . well . .

I have called for a fair standard, based on what aikiweb did to several people who were making claims, to now be used for others who want to discuss IP/aiki as if they know something..."show!"
It is not going to happen. The results are to defining and finite and they tend to remove the debate points of those who attempt to redefine things to fit their views, I guess just because... it's their view!. You know, those who advocate, "natural internal power", "everyone has it" or "shinto ritual involvement", and the "fascia from a medical view" and now the recently exposed and hollow "mathmatics and physics approach" as anything other than what you referred to as just more belief systems ...completely unable to deliver in the real world.

When it comes to IP/aiki, my own meaning and observation is not limited to the those most often discussed here. I meant to be far more inclusive. Some here refer to the ICMA masters and their developement of internals, some refer to the few in the JMA who have anything by way of internals worthy of being called "developed." Beyond that discussion I challenge:

Who is teaching that portion of their art in a cohesive and clear manner, that has real value, past technique or form. One sure indicator is how much of what they do is tied to their "technique."
Who has students who can demonstrate it in a free manner.
And who....knows how to use whatever, in a manner that has martial efficacy across the board..
What happens when you start kicking and punching and trying to or succeeding in taking them to the ground?

I agree whole heartedly that the discussion ...can only...be discussed in person. There is a reason I advocate going out and meeting as many as you can who are supposed to be good and seeing what they can do and what their students can do. It protects those looking, and helps them to continuously define and re-define what good really means and what they want out of their pursuits.
I've never bought into this living legend Japanese and Chinese teacher stuff either. I have read more B.S. about ICMA masters who were "scary" and JMA aiki teachers who were "amazing."
Which turned out to be anything but. Beauty does lie in the eyes of the beholder I guess.
Of course there are some VERY good teachers out there and they can use what they know, The key points are
a) whether or not they are good,
b) whether or not they know how to fight with what they know-outside their system,
c) whether or not they can and will teach it.
I think you and I pretty much agree on all of those points.

...I was trying to be vague since I wasn't sure if you guys were doing any system or your own thing (that I'm not otherwise defining because of its proprietary nature) - but I did mean the old group, rather than the new influx.
Other than the old group were more raw recruits who I brought up, and the new group are mostly VERY experienced with anywhere from twenty to forty plus years in different arts; both are facing the same dilemas from different ends of the spectrum. I had to redefine things to make them more universal for so many different approaches. In that light I removed the idea of applications since they were a road block to many. Now, after meeting the old crew, the new crew wants to do more of my own ideas of application. I will leave you to figure out why that is.... The joke here is that we are going back to "the old way of MMA."

Fair enough - sounds right and I was definitely just asking rather than violating the first rule of a fight club I don't belong to ;)
Ooooh... you have been informed of the recent "Don't talk about it" eh? I tell everyone at at seminars if they talk about the seminar or me on the net without clearing it with me, take a long look, because you will never see me again.

Twin sticks sounds fun, always meant to find some folks that wanted to dance to some FMA, but haven't had the opportunity, yet.
Well, its all the same to me, knife, sword, single stick, two stick, spear, hand to hand, for me they are all versions of the the same thing.

I think you have to be basically weird to be fascinated endlessly by this stuff . . it's just difficult when you're delusional, psychotic, a control freak, arse, etc. . . (any combination) in addition . . and a number of those types have found refuge in martial arts - particularly when the model for years and years is/has been blind obedience/following . . seems rife for abuse, especially once culturally removed when it has to be learned and pantomimed.
Jill calls it "Cowboys and indians"
Dressing up and playing out an era and culture beyond your experience opens up that culture to be redefined by many; student and teacher alike.

But as far as paths go . . do folks that have come through your doors and since moved on, do any of them have their own groups to propagate things further? Part interest on my part, part looking at models to follow and more data points, etc. And honestly enjoying the discussion as it's evolving. No agenda either way. . I know my role as a seeker and happy to just walk that path for a bit, collecting info as I can.
Of the dozen or so who got something, most are just doing the dad and husband time out thing...kids everywhere!!!!! A couple moved too far away, three are talking about coming back as the kids have gotten older, hence their recently showing up. There is no end of them kidding me "Hah! You've been discovered!" Remember, they have seen me close the dojo and stop teaching altogether...twice... with no notice to anyone. So they're cracking up at the recent turn of events and waiting for me to do it again!

oh yes...hundreds of others just were in and out and never amounted to much, we all know how that goes.
Cheers
Dan
P.S. Should have responded to your comment. I've enjoyed the exchange as well, Budd.

mathewjgano
08-10-2010, 02:11 PM
You know, those who advocate, "natural internal power", "everyone has it" or "shinto ritual involvement", and the "fascia from a medical view" and now the recently exposed and hollow "mathmatics and physics approach" as anything other than what you referred to [are] just more belief systems ...completely unable to deliver in the real world.

My understanding of the idea of "natural internal power" is that it's simply a recognition that we all have the capability and, as such, can pay attention to that part of the "nature" of our own bodies to develop it. It doesn't mean "don't train with as many talented people as you can." If anything, to me it simply implies the good advice of "learn how your body works organically" (as opposed to ritualized form), and that basic equality between all people you described in an earlier post. Everyone does "have it," it's just that not everyone is aware of it..."it" being the functions of the body which manifest that thing you do. I'll readily buy the idea that most people who have the very slightest ability probably think they're operating with a greater portion of their potential than they are, but speaking as one of the more Shinto ritual involved people here, I've never been given the impression that the concepts magically make the reality. If anything I've been told repeatedly that the proof is in the pudding and you only get better at anything by training with people who are better than yourself...with the implication that any serious student will eventually branch out and compare training methods.

Sorry if I've misread your meaning, but you seem to be implying something very different from my experiences...and I'm not speaking at all about the quality or presence of IP/whatever itself, purely the approach I've practiced which you seem to be now commenting on.

DH
08-10-2010, 03:07 PM
Sorry if I've misread your meaning, but you seem to be implying something very different from my experiences...and I'm not speaking at all about the quality or presence of IP/whatever itself, purely the approach I've practiced which you seem to be now commenting on.
You did. There are certain rituals and practices that are indeed power building. but IP/aiki is not relegated and as simple as only that.
However, they are not "natural" nor is the various mind/body intent, and breath power training a natural affair. You will not get there without being shown. These things are far more mental and involve a learned control and discipline not a "oh yeah I do that everyday" tyoe of event. Look I have shown people into shinto and decades of misogi...they had no clue, could not even touch it. I had an MMA guy look at me last night and say. "It's so simple in concept..why can't I do it?"

What I said was contextual within aikiweb discussions
You know, those who advocate, "natural internal power", "everyone has it" or "shinto ritual involvement", and the "fascia from a medical view" and now the recently exposed and hollow "mathmatics and physics approach" as anything other than what you referred to as just more belief systems ...completely unable to deliver in the real world.
Look, anyone can do whatever they want, all the power to them. I am limiting my own discussions of their efforts;
To when they involve themsevles in these discussions and then insinuating what they can deliver by way of IP/aiki (or even potentially delivering) compared to what is being shown/ discussed in these discussions.
It is a very fair and even handed approach to what has gone on in the past.
Cheers
Dan

Mike Sigman
08-10-2010, 03:10 PM
My understanding of the idea of "natural internal power" is that it's simply a recognition that we all have the capability and, as such, can pay attention to that part of the "nature" of our own bodies to develop it.I'd have to flip through a few books to find the quote, but I'm pretty sure it's in one of the books about Yang Cheng Fu and it basically says something like, "These skills are not intuitive, but must be taught". Not saying that no one can have a few I.S.-related overlaps, ever, but that the development of these skills is considered something "natural" in the sense of "pre-birth" (Early Heaven), while our normal strength is considered to be "post-birth" (Later Heaven). It takes training to develop the skills (or pieces/parts of the skills, more likely, for most people).

Then, too, there's another quote attributed to Yang Cheng Fu that goes something like, "These things are simple once I've shown them to you, but it would take several life-times for you to figure them all out".

FWIW

Mike Sigman

DH
08-10-2010, 03:26 PM
There is some measure of resentment going on in these threads. Everyone wants some measure of respect for their training. It's one of the reasons why people get personally attacked so often. Okay fine.
Where is the respect for those who actually can and have delivered, and then openly share and teach?
Then...respect for the existence of IP/aiki as real and something out of the ordinary, as witnessed by, experienced by and now trained in by; hundreds of people from aikiweb and practiced by thousands...hell, tens of thousands, the world over?
I think the dialogue and process needs to be more even handed.
What I've been advocating is a very fair and even handed approach using the same standards established right here in the past. I have been trying to use it to bring people together and enjoy their arts more, instead of splitting people apart.
Dan

mathewjgano
08-10-2010, 05:07 PM
There is some measure of resentment going on in these threads. Everyone wants some measure of respect for their training. It's one of the reasons why people get personally attacked so often. Okay fine.
Where is the respect for those who actually can and have delivered, and then openly share and teach?Then...respect for the existence of IP/aiki as real and something out of the ordinary, as witnessed by, experienced by and now trained in by; hundreds of people from aikiweb and practiced by thousands...hell, tens of thousands, the world over?
First off, sorry again for misunderstanding what you meant. Speaking for myself, I don't resent you. I see comments that occassionally seem too sweeping to me...and since I do tend to skim these conversations, I know I've contributed to more than my fair share of the myopic diversion. Sorry for that as well. I've been trying to refrain from posting so much for just that reason...and will probably do a better job in the future.:o
That said, I'd love to hear more about the folks other than the small handful I keep seeing here. Nothing against you guys at all, it just seems the best approach might be to encounter more than 3 or 4 people...or 5 or 6 even. I hear quite a bit of respect for you, Mike and Ark, but I would love to hear about other folks.
Coming into these conversations relatively late, I see quite a bit of respect for you folks and what you're teaching, because so many folks do describe your lessons as being so revolutionary to their training of many years.
I gotta go. Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit. Anything else I think of to say I'll do via PM like I ought to.
Thank you for the thoughtful responses, both you and Mike!
Take care folks.

Mike Sigman
08-10-2010, 08:43 PM
I sometimes think that too many 'martial artists' get hung up on some role-playing thing about "respect" and other ritualistic behavior. Perhaps people should get around 'history', rituals, 'respect', conformation, etc., and simply ask 'how does it work?'. Cut through the B.S.

Either someone knows it well enough to explain it (or at least the basic principles) or they don't. As long as people go the route of the obvious diversions and those obviously looking for followers, I tend to personally think that most of them are maybe not worth the time. Ever see Ueshiba Sensei worry about the people who didn't show him stuff? No... he simply went after what he could. He did what he could do. He worked hard. He showed his results.

Good "paths" lead to good results... you'll know them when you have them. People not interested enough to look?.... at some point in time you have to grok whether it's friends or results you're looking for. :straightf

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Marc Abrams
08-10-2010, 09:36 PM
I have enjoyed an AWESOME vacation in Sonoma/Napa valleys. It has been fun to catch up on this thread. I will present an interesting analogy. I had the privilege of meeting some remarkable winemakers and wineries. Some wineries make meritage (fine red wine mix) by waiting until the individual types of wines are done with the barrel aging so what you mix is what you get. After all, there are some "formulas" for these blends. Then, there are some more experienced winemakers (making finer wines of course) who wait 1/2 way thru the barrel aging before making the blends to finish aging in the barrel. This is based on some real-life experience. Then, I went to a winery where the winemaker literally makes the blends BEFORE barreling. This wine maker has over 30 years of ACTUAL HANDS-ON experience about making fine wines. Of course, this winery is considered a top-flight winery.

There are some people who like to pretend that they can do "research" and "study" IP from readings, internet, books...... and learn anything about what people are discussing. One such person is consistently asked specific questions to indicate any REAL understanding of what people are working on and learning from others. There is no substitute for real-life experience from teachers who can actually teach what they are talking about.

Mike made a very good point about the issue of "making friends." People spend far too much time trying to be defenders, supporters........ Simply put, go out there and train with people like Dan, Mike, Ark..... Do your personal work to try and develop some of these skills that these people teach. The remarkable thing that you discover is how little you really do know when you see what is out there and own up to where you really are. Talk has always been cheap. Walking the talk has always been another issue all together.

Marc Abrams

DH
08-10-2010, 10:33 PM
Mike made a very good point about the issue of "making friends." People spend far too much time trying to be defenders, supporters........ Simply put, go out there and train with people like Dan, Mike, Ark..... Do your personal work to try and develop some of these skills that these people teach. The remarkable thing that you discover is how little you really do know when you see what is out there and own up to where you really are. Talk has always been cheap. Walking the talk has always been another issue all together.
Marc Abrams
I dunno Marc
I can think of so many examples of Teachers in Budo who would disagree with this. Some of their stories, which have been published here and there, tell a different story, of how they "missed it" in only training budo as research in better ways to kill, instead of thinking to enjoy the ride...and in particular, making friends.

One fella mentioned how a teacher showed him how her friends from budo took care of her, her house, her cats, when she was in the hospital. Going on to ask him "If you were in trouble, who in budo would take care of ....you?"
Another famous teacher saying budo is about life, not killing, and that you should use it to build your life and friends. That guy is extremely capable and yet has many friends.
Yet another well known and very capable married couple, who insist on using budo to build a community and group around them.

And quoting Ueshiba as an example of not role playing and only doing your research and not caring about friends, or supporters (of all things OMG are you kidding me?) or respect or anything else is just simply a freaking comedy. What a joke!

You guys can do what you want...if community and friendship isn't a factor in your budo, then there is no point in discussing it further, it will not be missed by you.
I think for many others...it is an empty message. I certainly do not support it. In fact if it wasn't for a good friend of mine convincing me to care about helping others...I wouldn't be here AT ALL. I would not be helping, I would still be in a closed dojo. I think he was right all along, and I personally know a couple of dozen people who were very glad I listened.

On second thought if the message we want to send is not to care about people and making connections and only learning a better way to fight ..then it makes it clear what the goals are for those people in teaching, It's just for the money or fame. Seems to me that sort of behavior in budo is rather well known and breeds sycophants, cult like behavior and beliefs and hangers on.....

Healthy relationships and the now evil word "friends" would not stand for that sucking up B.S.
Good luck with that, I know where I stand on the issue. I do budo for much, much, more than a better way to fight or for impartial and removed and disinterested knowledge and research, and I think I am a better man for it.

Dan

Marc Abrams
08-11-2010, 07:49 AM
I dunno Marc
I can think of so many examples of Teachers in Budo who would disagree with this. Some of their stories, which have been published here and there, tell a different story, of how they "missed it" in only training budo as research in better ways to kill, instead of thinking to enjoy the ride...and in particular, making friends.

One fella mentioned how a teacher showed him how her friends from budo took care of her, her house, her cats, when she was in the hospital. Going on to ask him "If you were in trouble, who in budo would take care of ....you?"
Another famous teacher saying budo is about life, not killing, and that you should use it to build your life and friends. That guy is extremely capable and yet has many friends.
Yet another well known and very capable married couple, who insist on using budo to build a community and group around them.

And quoting Ueshiba as an example of not role playing and only doing your research and not caring about friends, or supporters (of all things OMG are you kidding me?) or respect or anything else is just simply a freaking comedy. What a joke!

You guys can do what you want...if community and friendship isn't a factor in your budo, then there is no point in discussing it further, it will not be missed by you.
I think for many others...it is an empty message. I certainly do not support it. In fact if it wasn't for a good friend of mine convincing me to care about helping others...I wouldn't be here AT ALL. I would not be helping, I would still be in a closed dojo. I think he was right all along, and I personally know a couple of dozen people who were very glad I listened.

On second thought if the message we want to send is not to care about people and making connections and only learning a better way to fight ..then it makes it clear what the goals are for those people in teaching, It's just for the money or fame. Seems to me that sort of behavior in budo is rather well known and breeds sycophants, cult like behavior and beliefs and hangers on.....

Healthy relationships and the now evil word "friends" would not stand for that sucking up B.S.
Good luck with that, I know where I stand on the issue. I do budo for much, much, more than a better way to fight or for impartial and removed and disinterested knowledge and research, and I think I am a better man for it.

Dan

Dan:

I think you know me a little better than that. I was not referring to what you posted about. You should know me well enough to know that I agree with your post. To me, true budo is about creating and sustaining healthy relationships in your life. I was referring to the people who waste time taking pot shots from a distance, or who feign knowledge, of which they have little-to-none, and they ultimately contribute little to sincere conversations ( a sign of healthy relatedness) on these threads.

Kind of like my analogy. The cheap red wine mixes do not do much amongst the wine loving crowd. The fine meritage brings out connections and conversations that reflect the depth of beauty of the creation.

Marc Abrams

Mike Sigman
08-11-2010, 08:47 AM
I think you know me a little better than that. I was not referring to what you posted about. You should know me well enough to know that I agree with your post. To me, true budo is about creating and sustaining healthy relationships in your life. I was referring to the people who waste time taking pot shots from a distance, or who feign knowledge, of which they have little-to-none, and they ultimately contribute little to sincere conversations ( a sign of healthy relatedness) on these threads.

Kind of like my analogy. The cheap red wine mixes do not do much amongst the wine loving crowd. The fine meritage brings out connections and conversations that reflect the depth of beauty of the creation.
I was just thinking how this current diversion from the topic mirrors almost exactly some conversations from 5-6 years ago about internal strength. If I recall correctly, someone made an appropriate observation that it's probably wiser to have some good and demonstrable skills before worrying about all the other aspects. "Friendships", "respect", "Budo", "Wu De", and so on are all good things, but they're not definitive parts of which "paths lead to internal power". Same comment made all those years ago on this same forum. How much has really changed since then and for how many people?

The years creep slowly by, Lorena,
The snow is on the grass again;
The sun's low down the sky Lorena,
The frost gleams where the flowers have been;

;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Tim Fong
08-11-2010, 08:31 PM
I don't have to be best friends with the people that I regularly train with. But, I have to be able to have mutual respect and trust. I prefer not to roll or spar with people whom I don't trust and where there is no mutual respect. That's not training -- that's a fight. There is definitely a place for fighting too, but let's not confuse the two.

I guess it's different for people who mostly do solo practice and non-agonistic drills.

Mike Sigman
08-11-2010, 08:59 PM
I don't have to be best friends with the people that I regularly train with. But, I have to be able to have mutual respect and trust. I prefer not to roll or spar with people whom I don't trust and where there is no mutual respect. That's not training -- that's a fight. There is definitely a place for fighting too, but let's not confuse the two.

I guess it's different for people who mostly do solo practice and non-agonistic drills.So how does all of that relate to your internal-strength skills? Dantien/hara usage? And so on? The question in the topic is in relation to "What paths lead to internal power?" In relation to Ueshiba and Takeda, would "plays well with other children" have been a known factor in their I.S. development? :p

FWIW

Mike Sigman

DH
08-11-2010, 10:06 PM
Dan:

I think you know me a little better than that. I was not referring to what you posted about. You should know me well enough to know that I agree with your post. To me, true budo is about creating and sustaining healthy relationships in your life. I was referring to the people who waste time taking pot shots from a distance, or who feign knowledge, of which they have little-to-none, and they ultimately contribute little to sincere conversations ( a sign of healthy relatedness) on these threads.

Kind of like my analogy. The cheap red wine mixes do not do much amongst the wine loving crowd. The fine meritage brings out connections and conversations that reflect the depth of beauty of the creation.

Marc Abrams
Hi Mark
Got it, though the expanded explanation helps to clarify, Hey, it was late and it sort of fit in with a discussion we just had after training; exactly about where these specific types of discussions.....then, like clockwork…Bam!
Hilarious, and once again predicted.
As you can see, from the flow of discussion some treat the idea of "friendship" in a discussion of budo, like a cancer. As if the very idea is impossible to talk about in training with internal power and aiki and it ends up with the idea of "making friends" as anathema to serious budo or the way certain people try to control a dialogue as if this isn't relavent to training. I guess if all you do is stand alone in a room or just have people push on you... it really isn't relavent.

I think you would agree with Tim's comments. He made a very intelligent point. I just got finished training and if I didn't trust the ones I was training with I would not have gone at it at the same speed and with the same risk factor, nor would they have trusted me either. You don't learn or teach others by just going at it …do you?

For the record (and as you know) sparring…actual sparring and using Ip/aiki, involves the same parameters as any other art, gradual, amped up, safety. One of guys had just go back from an MMA gym had his elbow cranked in drill sparring by someone he trusted who screwed him up now for months. So, as Tim pointed out when you actually get beyond solo training and reading some forum and get your ass out to actually use IP/aiki in sparring or showing others how…friends and trust takes on a very real meaning.

Most people who actually are good at budo, already know all of this, but for those who have spent too much time training alone and at a computer, it might help.;)
Anyway....I'll talk to you tomorrow instead of here.
Dan

Mike Sigman
08-11-2010, 10:21 PM
As you can see, from the flow of discussion some treat the idea of "friendship" in a discussion of budo, like a cancer. As if the very idea is impossible to talk about in training with internal power and aiki and it ends up with the idea of "making friends" as anathema to serious budo or the way certain people try to control a dialogue as if this isn't relavent to training.Yeah, but instead of all the simply untrue oblique shots about anyone treating "friendship" as cancer, yada, yada, etc., how about explaining how this complete aside about friendship, budo, wu de, etc., leads to internal power? Let's see if we can keep to the discussion without the usual self-congratulation and putting down of others, for a change. The original topic is about "paths that lead to internal power".

If you want to posit that "friendship" is a bona fide component of I.S. training, fine by me.... I'm just asking for you to support it instead of posturing. If you can't support your thesis, just admit it, but let's keep the thread on topic about "paths that lead to internal power", please.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

DH
08-11-2010, 10:22 PM
..........................:rolleyes:

Lorel Latorilla
08-12-2010, 07:31 AM
Yeah, but instead of all the simply untrue oblique shots about anyone treating "friendship" as cancer, yada, yada, etc., how about explaining how this complete aside about friendship, budo, wu de, etc., leads to internal power? Let's see if we can keep to the discussion without the usual self-congratulation and putting down of others, for a change. The original topic is about "paths that lead to internal power".

If you want to posit that "friendship" is a bona fide component of I.S. training, fine by me.... I'm just asking for you to support it instead of posturing. If you can't support your thesis, just admit it, but let's keep the thread on topic about "paths that lead to internal power", please.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike, FWIW, when Dan talks about his accolades, he is speaking the reality of aiki, and not necessarily being arrogant nor is he putting down others. At least that's how I see it. Perhaps you should adjust the way you see him and then maybe you can start a "discussion" that you want to happen?

Mike Sigman
08-12-2010, 07:55 AM
Mike, FWIW, when Dan talks about his accolades, he is speaking the reality of aiki, and not necessarily being arrogant nor is he putting down others. At least that's how I see it. Perhaps you should adjust the way you see him and then maybe you can start a "discussion" that you want to happen?Still more posts that are completely off-topic. Let's just accept the obvious... most people see right away that the importance of "friendship" (or trying to put others down, aggrandize one's own glory, etc.) simply fails as an argument, so that topic gets dropped like a hot potato when questioned. I.e., while it sounds cool to go off on some of these digressions, they don't do a thing to further the main issue of the thread.

Thinking about it, though, reminds me of a discussion I had yesterday which reminded me of a comment one of my earlier teachers made back in the 1980's. I talked about going to a tournament that Summer down in Houston and he asked me why I wasted my time doing those things instead of just practicing. "Very few of those people are serious martial artists, so you are wasting your time", he said. I.e., his opinion was along the lines that if you are trying to develop serious skills, the practice is more important than the social aspects. I tend to agree.

Lorel, why not contribute something substantive about the path to internal power that you're taking and how well it works, why it works, etc.?

Mike Sigman

DH
08-12-2010, 08:34 AM
Mike, FWIW, when Dan talks about his accolades, he is speaking the reality of aiki, and not necessarily being arrogant nor is he putting down others. At least that's how I see it. Perhaps you should adjust the way you see him and then maybe you can start a "discussion" that you want to happen?

There many paths to power and they are not all the same. One important feature is you need teachers and "friends" that will actually help you learn, Those are relationships you have developed and the path was not completed....on your own...in order to learn.
I feel like quoting Chun from Remo Williams "Most intelligent people know this already"
Anyway, food for thought in these "who needs friends for budo" discussions!!

There are things to learn, things you will be shown, that really do not work in high pressure environment that goes past push hands. You may have power and think its going to work...until you meet certain people who have IP/aiki that was developed under stress testing in a more pressured environment. You might even find it is the same material that two people were working on, One knows the material, the other "knows" the material.
You might find and any two people wo really do have IP/aiki but are incapable of expressing it to the same degree.
As is typical in budo discussions the one will decry the merits of the other.
I like the myth of the Samurai and the monk:
The monk developed his dantian and power in breath training and meditation on a 3' platform. no regular person could push him over.
Up walks this certain Samurai who launches him off the platform, saying "You can develop your dantian sitting there safe from the world, I developed mind under stress and in movement."

It is a kept story, a budo lesson perhaps kept and passed down (real or not) to demonstrate exactly what is being discussed here.
I think most reasonable people can understand these things.


There are people with aiki with little by way of any real connection and the aiki is done by way of technique and is but a mask.
There are people with Aiki whos bodies have developed over time with various measures of I.P. to support it but are still lacking. They are "good enough" for most martial artists to be impressed.
There are people with a deeper understanding of aiki than others but who still suffer from mediocre internal power but the former makes up for the lack of the later and they are impressive.
There are people who have developed their skills only in practice within their own arts, this can bring serious developmental flaws they will never see.


Then there are people with internal power and an understanding of aiki who have resolved the dilemmas and the complexities involved in using it across the board in many different venues. Their mutually supported strengths make a well developed whole; the internal power matched with internal skills, that create aiki ...all expressed with an array of application and skill learned under stress.

It is unfortunate that there are those in the martial arts; internal or no, fool hardy enough to think that practicing alone and in push hands or kata prepares them to go up against the former. They are the truly arrogant ones. They do not know their place. They seek to have, what the others have earned, without the paying price. Their first step is to always try to intellectually reduce the value of those efforts. I have seen it in as simple an example as some Iai people who dare to think they were prepared for men who also train the sword, and then freestlying it in armor.

I suspect it's always been that way.


In any case, I think relationships and friendship...sustained realtionship...is in my mind a key componant to real devolpment and a complete martial artists; internal or no.
Cheers
Dan

HL1978
08-12-2010, 08:37 AM
So how does all of that relate to your internal-strength skills? Dantien/hara usage? And so on? The question in the topic is in relation to "What paths lead to internal power?" In relation to Ueshiba and Takeda, would "plays well with other children" have been a known factor in their I.S. development? :p

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike,

I think you would at least need people that you trust in order to:

A) show you these skills

B) be honest enough to tell you wether or not you are progressing or doing the exercises correctly. Otherwise its easy to get self deluded.

C) When you initially start you need someone else pushing on you so that you can feel the difference between proper and improper movement. Perhaps once you have some understanding of this, you can do tons of solo training because you can recognize the feel on your own.

D) If you have a group of somekind, you are more likely to stick with the training and will likely make better progress since you can bounce ideas off one another. Sure if you are hardcore enough you don't need peer pressure.

At the end of the day maybe you don't need friendship (its not going to hurt), but it does help to surround yourself with commited people who are interested in these skills if for any other reason than having a variety of body types and skill levels to play with.

Mike Sigman
08-12-2010, 08:55 AM
At the end of the day maybe you don't need friendship (its not going to hurt), but it does help to surround yourself with commited people who are interested in these skills if for any other reason than having a variety of body types and skill levels to play with.I don't disagree with what you're saying. Having helpful 'friends' or 'partners' (that's really what you mean, I gather) is certainly a plus and I haven't said anything against it. "Friendship", "Wu De", "spirituality" and other intangibles, though, I'd suggest are not necessary as part of "path that leads to internal power". First a person needs information and someone to show them the basics and get them started.

I've also noted a number of times that I don't think there are any real experts in I.S. posting on this forum and in fact I think that at the moment most people have only general ideas about the full spectrum of I.S. skills. I.e., I don't think the information is complete, so before people get too committed to anything they should understand that there's a lot more information out there. "Friends" may be helpful, but just like some of the Aikido (or Taiji or Xingyi or karate or whatever) 'teachers' that have helped cause the current problem, an "I.S. teacher" who has incomplete information can be as much of a problem as any other teacher.

So yeah, you need assistance from partners and from teacher(s), but you mainly have to depend on yourself and understand that even some of the most well-meaning "teachers" and "friends" can put you unintentionally in the trick-bag if what they know isn't quite as helpful overall as you may hope out of your own loyalty to them.

I've seen some people who simply stagnate by working out with the same partners/pals for years. You have to look hard at results and you have to know what results you should be looking for.

2 cents.

Mike

Mike Sigman
08-12-2010, 09:11 AM
It is unfortunate that there are those in the martial arts; internal or no, fool hardy enough to think that practicing alone and in push hands or kata prepares them to go up against the former. They are the truly arrogant ones. They do not know their place. They seek to have, what the others have earned, without the paying price. Their first step is to always try to intellectually reduce the value of those efforts. I have seen it in as simple an example as some Iai people who dare to think they were prepared for men who also train the sword, and then freestlying it in armor.
I know two different people who claim to have internal strength skills. One of them has only very rudimentary actual skills, but covers the rest of it because he can (well, could) fight pretty well and beat up on a lot of people who weren't really good fighters; this guy has a pretty loud mouth in regard to telling people how good he is (or, was). The other guy has, IMO, pretty good I.S. skills, in the real and technical sense and he's a pretty good fighter. Both guys have been involved in car wrecks in recent years, and the loudmouth can't really fight anymore; the other guy wasn't injured quite as badly, but he's still limited in his mobility.

Let's say some newby wanted to learn internal-strength skills.... which of those two guys should he go learn from. The guy who had a few rudimentary skills and a lot of strength.. or the guy who actually had and understood internal strength? The guy with the actual technical knowledge would be my suggestion. If someone learns actual internal strength, then they can go apply it to "fightin'", qigongs, or tiddlywinks correctly. I.e., it doesn't matter, IMO, how you use it (that's up to you), as long as you're doing it correctly. The story about one guy pushing another guy doesn't tell me much except that "winning" seems to be raising its head as an issue, while I thought that we were still just talking about how to get good information. Unless some person can beat everyone on the planet and can guarantee to teach that as part of their 'martial-art', I'd suggest that the current worry is more about getting good/real information.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

DH
08-12-2010, 09:11 AM
Mike,

I think you would at least need people that you trust in order to:

A) show you these skills

B) be honest enough to tell you wether or not you are progressing or doing the exercises correctly. Otherwise its easy to get self deluded.

C) When you initially start you need someone else pushing on you so that you can feel the difference between proper and improper movement. Perhaps once you have some understanding of this, you can do tons of solo training because you can recognize the feel on your own.

D) If you have a group of somekind, you are more likely to stick with the training and will likely make better progress since you can bounce ideas off one another. Sure if you are hardcore enough you don't need peer pressure.

At the end of the day maybe you don't need friendship (its not going to hurt), but it does help to surround yourself with commited people who are interested in these skills if for any other reason than having a variety of body types and skill levels to play with.
Hello Hunter
If I may, while all that is true, you still only outlined learning some basic connections through push testing....er...okay.
Solo training is key...absolutely essential,, paired testing as well. However, legendary, IP/aiki is never, was never, a completed skill learned by remaining in these sorts of environments. It's kind of like being retarded in it's true definition of being developmentally challenged, people who remain there will never fully develop, and can and will be outmatched by those who've taken it literally, to the next level.
Contrary, to some of the myth making seen here, there are more and more stories coming back with real experts in the ICMA who have had trouble in dealing with western wrestlers and MMA'ers at seminars. Now imagine the same westerners with IP/aiki and with those same years of experience in fighting skill.
More and more are thinking this way. I think it's a good thing.
As I said though, for those really searching for total development, there are those who attempt to cheapen those efforts. Something any serious martial artists should look out for..;) .
Cheers
Dan

DH
08-12-2010, 09:23 AM
I know two different people who claim to have internal strength skills. One of them has only very rudimentary actual skills, but covers the rest of it because he can (well, could) fight pretty well and beat up on a lot of people who weren't really good fighters; this guy has a pretty loud mouth in regard to telling people how good he is (or, was). The other guy has, IMO, pretty good I.S. skills, in the real and technical sense and he's a pretty good fighter. Both guys have been involved in car wrecks in recent years, and the loudmouth can't really fight anymore; the other guy wasn't injured quite as badly, but he's still limited in his mobility.

Let's say some newby wanted to learn internal-strength skills.... which of those two guys should he go learn from. The guy who had a few rudimentary skills and a lot of strength.. or the guy who actually had and understood internal strength? The guy with the actual technical knowledge would be my suggestion. If someone learns actual internal strength, then they can go apply it to "fightin'", qigongs, or tiddlywinks correctly. I.e., it doesn't matter, IMO, how you use it (that's up to you), as long as you're doing it correctly. The story about one guy pushing another guy doesn't tell me much except that "winning" seems to be raising its head as an issue, while I thought that we were still just talking about how to get good information. Unless some person can beat everyone on the planet and can guarantee to teach that as part of their 'martial-art', I'd suggest that the current worry is more about getting good/real information.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
This is not an honest approach to me, or a serious attempt at a discussion. It never is with you. You obviously are not this one dimmensional in your own life with this nonsense, so I am not going to reduce myself to this artificial exchange of all about winning and losing,

I am discussing a complete picture in the martial arts that is far beyond you and I or any forum, one which is written about in both Chinese and Japanese circles. You can continue to attempt to separate and re-define, then reduce a field you admit not having a part of or interest in. It is just getting more and more transparent when you do. Hey, I don't begrudge your efforts and stated goals. Good for you. I hear you have gotten some decent resutls. the rest is a discussion past your stated goals. They are no mutually exclusive.
It's just like having discussions with aiki-bunnies who make no beans about not caring about applications, they are just having fun. Good on them too. but there are those in aikido who most definately ARE looking for martial skills in their practice.

Your tactics do you an ill service. When I look back at these discussions with you and I; it is abundantly clear to all who goes after who.
We're all just amateurs with different goals. The legends pursued both, it is what the modern experts in the making shoot for too, almost all of them put out "application" videos of form and kata.;)
Dan

Lorel Latorilla
08-12-2010, 09:28 AM
Still more posts that are completely off-topic. Let's just accept the obvious... most people see right away that the importance of "friendship" (or trying to put others down, aggrandize one's own glory, etc.) simply fails as an argument, so that topic gets dropped like a hot potato when questioned. I.e., while it sounds cool to go off on some of these digressions, they don't do a thing to further the main issue of the thread.

Thinking about it, though, reminds me of a discussion I had yesterday which reminded me of a comment one of my earlier teachers made back in the 1980's. I talked about going to a tournament that Summer down in Houston and he asked me why I wasted my time doing those things instead of just practicing. "Very few of those people are serious martial artists, so you are wasting your time", he said. I.e., his opinion was along the lines that if you are trying to develop serious skills, the practice is more important than the social aspects. I tend to agree.

Lorel, why not contribute something substantive about the path to internal power that you're taking and how well it works, why it works, etc.?

Mike Sigman

This is not completely off topic. If you want people to discuss and talk about "the paths that lead to internal power" then you have to stop saying things that are condemnatory and possibly consider that these people describe these skills in a different phenomenological language (this is considering whether the language--hara, ground path, etc--you use points to the truth of this relaxed power/bodyskill that we are after).

HL1978
08-12-2010, 09:30 AM
Hello Hunter
If I may, while all that is true, you still only outlined learning some basic connections through push testing....er...okay.
Solo training is key...absolutely essential,, paired testing as well. However, legendary, IP/aiki is never, was never, a completed skill learned by remaining in these sorts of environments. It's kind of like being retarded in it's true definition of being developmentally challenged, people who remain there will never fully develop, and can and will be outmatched by those who've taken it literally, to the next level.
Contrary, to some of the myth making seen here, there are more and more stories coming back with real experts in the ICMA who have had trouble in dealing with western wrestlers and MMA'ers at seminars. Now imagine the same westerners with IP/aiki and with those same years of experience in fighting skill.
More and more are thinking this way. I think it's a good thing.
As I said though, for those really searching for total development, there are those who attempt to cheapen those efforts. Something any serious martial artists should look out for..;) .
Cheers
Dan

Dan,

I'm in agreement here. You need to go out and play with people who have no expereience with these skills. Not to make yourself feel awesome (its easy to get a big head), but to make sure that you can really make them work and not delude yourself.

to me there isn't much point of learning a skill that only works under certain conditions with certain people. If that was the case, I would be better off taking card tricks as a hobby.

DH
08-12-2010, 09:53 AM
Dan,

I'm in agreement here. You need to go out and play with people who have no expereience with these skills. Not to make yourself feel awesome (its easy to get a big head), but to make sure that you can really make them work and not delude yourself.

to me there isn't much point of learning a skill that only works under certain conditions with certain people. If that was the case, I would be better off taking card tricks as a hobby.
That's exaclty what I did. I get a kick out of the "loud mouth" and "self agrandizing" and every other insult and negative comment some people can think of to attach to these discussions. Most of which is meant to obviate the fact that you can successfully pursue both IP/aiki and martial use. I means its really getting to sound rather strange.

I learned to actually use these things from the flat of my back, from failing continouosly, over and over, till it started working for me. People on this board have met my guys and hear the stories, many of which are hilarious, and anything but favorable to me! There is no ego in that type of martial give and take.,Testing is and always was part of the martial game. Talking about it gives credence to those who honestly were doubting whether IP/aiki had real value in a martial conext, and even now others continue to doubt it's real use. Thus it IS PART OF THE DISCUSSION among martial artists. The fact that I do well now, is meaningless other than it is yet one more example for people to see and be able to discuss and in my case that hundreds can now feel and discuss in person, thus IP/aiki's potential in use is again proven out.

I have always seen it as a series of experiments of methods and have remained detached from the the end rsults. I have done well with some ICMA master class guys too, , but hey... when one of them throws me on my ass I will be the first to let you know... bully for whoever that may turn out to be, Hell I look forward to it, makes no beans to me,or any other serious grappler who gets thrown, and then throws, the same guy back...over and over.
Seems to me its only these "martial artists" types who attach so much ego to winning and losing....big deal! I suspect it's because they have never done much of either..;)
Cheers
Dan

Mike Sigman
08-12-2010, 09:53 AM
This is not an honest approach to me, or a serious attempt at a discussion. It never is with you. You obviously are not this one dimmensional in your own life with this nonsense, so I am not going to reduce myself to this artificial exchange of all about winning and losing, More off-topic personality-focused diversions.

I am discussing a complete picture. one which is written about in both Chinese and Japanese circles. That's a vague sentence. If you're trying to justify why you keep going off into "I can fight, too" stuff, as a part of internal strength, let me remind you that internal-strength is also a part of many non-martial qigongs, so the idea that you're supported by Japan and China simply fails. I say first learn internal strength and then develop what you want with it; you seem to always harp that good fighting is part of internal strength. Not true. For instance, I don't flinch at all and start denigrating Koichi Tohei when he indicates fighting and martial-arts doesn't have a lot to do with his school because I recognize that that's a valid perspective among some Asians. Constantly denigrating others only says something about the person doing the talking. Of course you can continue to separate and attempt to re-define, then reduce a field you have no part in. Dan, I get a little tired of you posting your comments about what you think I do and can do. Why not just stop? Stick to technical details. Last I heard, not everyone is as enamored of you as might be thought by reading your own posts, but I simply ignore people when they go off on tangents about you, too. Let's just give the personal stuff a rest, shall we? "The first step they use is to try to intellectually reduce the efforts of others, to try and gain what they have without expending the same effort....." .

I agree with that. As long as the person doing the "borrowing" isn't claiming all he knows is from his own brilliance or that he's been doing all of it "for many years". If you remember, I pointed out that I've seen this same game played for decades; it's fairly common.
We're all just amatuers with different goals. The legends pursued both, it is what the [I]modern experts in the making shoot for too, Mike.;)
DanSo far I haven't met any self-made modern experts who can move with the dantien and who aren't shoulder-reliant. That's the core of what I've been trying to say: before people start distracting conversations about winning fights, I'd be satisfied with just watching them move without being shoulder/arm dependent. If they're great fighters with some rudimentary jin skills but a lot of shoulder and non-hara movement, my question is about why that sort of movement is being called internal strength. Same point I made with the car-wrecks story.

Think about it......why, if someone's internal-strength is so good, do they still use their shoulders and not their hara's? Ever see a Chinese or Japanese martial art that didn't stress the fact that the hara should be used?

FWIW

Mike Sigman

mickeygelum
08-12-2010, 09:59 AM
You need to go out and play with people who have no expereience with these skills. Not to make yourself feel awesome (its easy to get a big head), but to make sure that you can really make them work and not delude yourself.

to me there isn't much point of learning a skill that only works under certain conditions with certain people. If that was the case, I would be better off taking card tricks as a hobby.


Hmm...now there is a thought, and a very good one at that.

DH
08-12-2010, 10:08 AM
Hmm...now there is a thought, and a very good one at that.
One which we have done...continouosly, over and over in many venues now numbering in the hunrdeds. Win, lose or draw, just putting it out there and doing what we can do for those who are looking. So far, I have rarely seen the public detractors who openly doubted that IP/aiki was a different way to move and a real usable skill, who followed their own advice.

Dan

Lee Salzman
08-12-2010, 10:22 AM
I agree with that. As long as the person doing the "borrowing" isn't claiming all he knows is from his own brilliance or that he's been doing all of it "for many years". If you remember, I pointed out that I've seen this same game played for decades; it's fairly common. So far I haven't met any self-made modern experts who can move with the dantien and who aren't shoulder-reliant. That's the core of what I've been trying to say: before people start distracting conversations about winning fights, I'd be satisfied with just watching them move without being shoulder/arm dependent. If they're great fighters with some rudimentary jin skills but a lot of shoulder and non-hara movement, my question is about why that sort of movement is being called internal strength. Same point I made with the car-wrecks story.

Think about it......why, if someone's internal-strength is so good, do they still use their shoulders and not their hara's? Ever see a Chinese or Japanese martial art that didn't stress the fact that the hara should be used?

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Out of genuine curiosity, if we are to think about it, I would like to ask: if all these people are using their shoulders in connection with their other skills, and this is to be taken as detrimental, then is that because they have determined an actual use or benefit to that in spite of this claim, or does this actually detract from their skills? I'd just like to understand why/how this is limiting their displayed ability, before we take it as a given.

DH
08-12-2010, 10:49 AM
More off-topic personality-focused diversions. If you're trying to justify why you keep going off into "I can fight, too" stuff, as a part of internal strength, let me remind you that internal-strength is also a part of many non-martial qigongs, so the idea that you're supported by Japan and China simply fails.
Wrong. I never said they weren't. Try to stay focused, Mike...ready...?
This is a martial art forum, I was talking to and about people who were interested in IP/aiki and its value WITHIN martial arts.
Read it a couple of times, Mike. They are not mutually exclusive. It's actually a big discussion.

Constantly denigrating others only says something about the person doing the talking. Dan, I get a little tired of you posting your comments about what you think I do and can do. Why not just stop? Stick to technical details. Last I heard, not everyone is as enamored of you as might be thought by reading your own posts, but I simply ignore people when they go off on tangents about you, too. Let's just give the personal stuff a rest, shall we?
YOu always do that after you cut up other people and get hammered back. How about lets knock off your passive/ agressive nonsense and talk straight.
I don't really care who is enamored of me, I hear quite a bit about you too...probably from the same people!! I just don't state what I hear. Here's a tip for a more healthy life, Mike. "Those who gossip to you- will gossip about you."
Budo-ka can be like a sewing circle. I don't invest myself in gossip..Why do you keep bringing up gossip only to tell me you don't believe it? Because it allows you to make another passive/agressive swipe. I have asked you that before and told you I ignore it and then don't mention what I hear and only then used an example of what I heard.Then pointed out to you how it is counter productive to any real discussion. See how that works? We really have to get beyond it..
If you don't like the comments I make....to you about your own statements....to me ..examine the ones you make to me.

I agree with that. As long as the person doing the "borrowing" isn't claiming all he knows is from his own brilliance or that he's been doing all of it "for many years". If you remember, I pointed out that I've seen this same game played for decades; it's fairly common. So far I haven't met any self-made modern experts who can move with the dantien and who aren't shoulder-reliant.
Does this sound familiar to you?
More off-topic personality-focused diversions..... If not see above!

That's the core of what I've been trying to say:
Not really...most understand the core of what you are really trying to say.;)

before people start distracting conversations about winning fights, I'd be satisfied with just watching them move without being shoulder/arm dependent. If they're great fighters with some rudimentary jin skills but a lot of shoulder and non-hara movement, my question is about why that sort of movement is being called internal strength. Same point I made with the car-wrecks story.
Think about it......why, if someone's internal-strength is so good, do they still use their shoulders and not their hara's? Ever see a Chinese or Japanese martial art that didn't stress the fact that the hara should be used?
Hmmm...presumptions and innuendo abound!
That you see discussions of martial use of IP/aiki as a "distraction" is my point about your own clearly stated goals. Your goals V others...as here, once again, you make them sound mutually exclusive.
They might well be for you, but it hardly seems accurate to comment on, or denigrate the path others take.

Case in point
I have not said what you can and cannot do, I could care less.
You state the limits of your own goals here over and over.
Look, this isn't about you or I. It's about the larger topic of IP/ aiki and various paths. Just like with the aiki-bunnies and in the Ki wars; where people stated their own disinterest in martial applications. I bear them no ill will,and I think it is unfair to insult them. That is an honest and clean pursuit, no business of mine, I say go for it and good luck in your pursuits.

Dan

DH
08-12-2010, 10:56 AM
Out of genuine curiosity, if we are to think about it, I would like to ask: if all these people are using their shoulders in connection with their other skills, and this is to be taken as detrimental, then is that because they have determined an actual use or benefit to that in spite of this claim, or does this actually detract from their skills? I'd just like to understand why/how this is limiting their displayed ability, before we take it as a given.
I have never seen the benefit. Most of those who talk about it end up one-side weighted and on the floor, or easily blocked and blown through...dang...there's that martial talk again!

The use of the shoulder is going to isolate the arm from a clean path of power through the body.
There are other more sophisticated things you can do in generating power in the hand from the hara/ground...say in one direction, while the elbow can generate a different force in an entirely different direction... and so on. There are various ways the hand itself can express power from different parts of the body. Some of that joins IP to IS and aiki.
None of that is going to work when the arm/shoulder is in isolation.
Cheers
Dan

DH
08-12-2010, 11:09 AM
Mike
Most people wish you and I would stop doing this. Since we cannot communicate well, for whatever reason, we should probably just avoid direct and oblique commentary all together, out of respect for each other and those here.

Dan.

Lee Salzman
08-12-2010, 11:30 AM
I have never seen the benefit. Most of those who talk about it end up one-side weighted and on the floor, or easily blocked and blown through...dang...there's that martial talk again!

The use of the shoulder is going to isolate the arm from a clean path of power through the body.
There are other more sophisticated things you can do in generating power in the hand from the hara/ground...say in one direction, while the elbow can generate a different force in an entirely different direction... and so on. There are various ways the hand itself can express power from different parts of the body. Some of that joins IP to IS and aiki.
None of that is going to work when the arm/shoulder is in isolation.
Cheers
Dan

Okay, I can accept that to some degree. But what would qualify as isolation? Like, someone throwing a punch with mostly muscles around the shoulder joint being used, and the rest of their body just mostly bracing? Or does even extending the whole body, if one is careful to simultaneously activate every muscle in the chain, including the shoulder, count as isolation here, so long as the shoulder muscles are working at all, even if in concert with the entire body?

phitruong
08-12-2010, 12:35 PM
you guys make this thing, IP/IS, way too complicated. first, you need to get the right information which involved going out and learned from various sources. a few already known in various circles. certain approach(es) might work better for certain people, depends on their inclination. some approach required a change in diet which included high amount of bean and cabbage and eggs. :) then you are going to spend lots of time practice by yourself and own up to your development. if your diet is like mine, it's better that you be by yourself, because other folks might not appreciate your power generation phase. then you going to need some like mind folks to do some "friendly testing" to make sure you are still on the right path/road/trail/course/trajectory, because the roads to hell and heaven sometime look almost the same (especially when bean and cabbage involved). then you are going to need to test it out with some unknown bruisers just gauge your progress/effectiveness (this is still martial arts after all) so you don't have some sort of illusion of grandeur (like declaring yourself as grand master cirque de l'air). and the cycle of rinse and agitation.

in summary (don't i sound like a grand master?), you need three things,
1. right info
2. right practice
3. right testing
4. right diet :)

Janet Rosen
08-12-2010, 12:49 PM
Mike
Most people wish you and I would stop doing this. Since we cannot communicate well, for whatever reason, we should probably just avoid direct and oblique commentary all together, out of respect for each other and those here.
Dan.

Yep

Mike Sigman
08-12-2010, 01:33 PM
About using the hara/dantien instead of local arm/shoulder:I have never seen the benefit. Most of those who talk about it end up one-side weighted and on the floor, or easily blocked and blown through...dang...there's that martial talk again!

The use of the shoulder is going to isolate the arm from a clean path of power through the body.
There are other more sophisticated things you can do in generating power in the hand from the hara/ground...say in one direction, while the elbow can generate a different force in an entirely different direction... and so on. There are various ways the hand itself can express power from different parts of the body. Some of that joins IP to IS and aiki.
None of that is going to work when the arm/shoulder is in isolation.
Cheers
DanA couple of comments. What about a previous statement you made that there are other ways to generate power than using the dantien/hara?

A second comment is to reiterate what I've already said (and this is very easy to show/see) along the lines that I see/hear a lot of talk about people doing "internal strength" but when you take a look at it, it almost always devolves to a heavy dependency on shoulder/arm use.

Lee, the trick to a lot of these things is that until someone has become acquainted with a lot of these things (e.g., your question about hara, muscle-chains, etc.), they can't know that they're there or they can't conceive of them. Worse yet, a lot of people get a start along the way, but they feel too quickly that they're experts, so their learning becomes truncated. I've had a number of people, over the years, who had very few skills but a lot of pride stop me in the middle of some very diplomatic "maybe if you...." to say "Yeah, yeah, I know.... after all, I *teach* this stuff". So I don't say anything since they already know everything. ;)

All of these factors add to the difficulties of the original question about paths that lead to internal strength.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

DH
08-12-2010, 01:58 PM
Yep
Hi Janet
All I can do is try. The misquotes, oblique attacks and things made up out of thin air can be a nuisance.
Cheers
Dan

Lorel Latorilla
08-12-2010, 02:18 PM
In any case Tim, go out there and touch hands with some experts or some people mentioned here on aikiweb. I had to go to Japan to do that.

DH
08-12-2010, 03:09 PM
Hi lorel
In post #126 I meant to begin my reply with " I agree" since the rest of the post was mostly covering mutual points.
cheers
Dan

phitruong
08-12-2010, 03:14 PM
In any case Tim, go out there and touch hands with some experts or some people mentioned here on aikiweb. I had to go to Japan to do that.

you are single, right? such a long commute for sushi. personally, i'd just tag along with howie popkin, because sooner or later, you will be able to get your hand on some fresh sashimi (if you can get pass his aiki). then again, he just married recently, so he's probably shore lined. :)

thisisnotreal
08-12-2010, 05:27 PM
Hey Phi,
re: Diet.
interesting.
Can you say a bit more about why you said that? Were you serious?

I just recently found the attached article; about the adverse effects on the body/fascia/triggerpoints in having an acidic (low grade acidosis) diet. (ph>7)... and why having a 'basic' (in terms of pH) diet is good. -->785

was thinking...iirc; this ties into some of the stuff on macrobiotic stuff and also the benefits of the fasting (or some part of the misogi no gyo diet-manipulating practices) that Shaun Ravens mentioned long ago. i may be drastically misquoting...but that's how i remember it.

Howard Popkin
08-12-2010, 08:03 PM
you are single, right? such a long commute for sushi. personally, i'd just tag along with howie popkin, because sooner or later, you will be able to get your hand on some fresh sashimi (if you can get pass his aiki). then again, he just married recently, so he's probably shore lined. :)

UUMMM WHAT ????????????????

Little known fact....on the first date, I asked my now wife if I could fish fish on our honeymoon. Yes, she looked at me as if I had 20 heads.

BUT..... I held her to it :) Yes, I got a really good one, and I'm not talking about halibut :)

Hope to see you soon Phi.

Howie

Lorel Latorilla
08-13-2010, 06:43 AM
Dan, I know, thanks!

Phi: Haha. I will meet Howie soon..we were supposed to hang out when he came to Japan to visit his teacher. Although me sitting in his boat for hours just so he can teach aiki to me is :crazy:

Patrick Hutchinson
08-13-2010, 08:12 AM
Howard, looks like you're using your shoulders big time in that first picture. That's the last time I listen to you!

DH
08-13-2010, 08:32 AM
Oh I disagree, look again real close. He's sinking and applying aiki-age to the pole. And look at that well developed dantian which he is rotating back and up....why...why...his center is in his hands, and he is just standing there using the fish's energy against him. Though I do not see "a golden rod!!"
I have seen him apply the same technique at a bar...I watched in awe. It seemed so well practiced and effortless, almost like "natural" internal movement. That's it...a new path!
Damn that guy...he's a genius!
Fishing and beer!
I'm sure his seminar notices to soon follow :D
Dan

Howard Popkin
08-13-2010, 08:45 AM
Oh Patrick,

You're just jealous of my clearly oversized Dantien :)

No golden rod ?????????????

That's a jigging master 500 gram, it doesn't come in gold :)

Halibut anyone ?

Budd
08-13-2010, 10:04 AM
Fishing and Beer with internals?? I'd cross oceans for that one!

phitruong
08-13-2010, 10:12 AM
Hey Phi,
re: Diet.
interesting.
Can you say a bit more about why you said that? Were you serious?



half kidding and half serious. the kidding was the bean and cabbage to produce ki/chi.

i have been working on fixing my back problems. i got the book "permanent pain cure" and the first part was change your diet and drink lots of water. so i am going on the low-fat and low sugar diet approach (have family history of high cholesterol and diabetics anyway). on top of that i drank lots and lots of water constantly (small bladder isn't helping). my muscles and joints feel a lot less tight and back pain is lessen. your body is a walking biochemical factory, so the intake should affect it in ways.

Upyu
08-14-2010, 03:41 AM
Fishing and Beer with internals?? I'd cross oceans for that one!

Budd,

I dare you to wear that quote you have under your name there on a shirt if you ever come to Japan :D

Props!

Budd
08-14-2010, 01:55 PM
Budd,

I dare you to wear that quote you have under your name there on a shirt if you ever come to Japan :D

Props!

Heh . . you know I would, right?

Thomas Campbell
08-16-2010, 07:43 AM
Occasionally, Route 28 near Boston takes you to internal power.

thisisnotreal
08-16-2010, 09:33 AM
Indeed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deed)

DH
08-17-2010, 08:47 AM
Occasionally, Route 128 near Boston takes you to internal power.
Well now Tom, you need to be careful. Are you qualified to have an opinion? Certain "informed sources" say you and most everyone else can't tell the difference between shoulder heavy, non-dantian driven, simple jin movement and real IP/aiki... regardless of where they have been and who they have felt.
So, certain "informed sources" are going to tell that you and many others just wasted your weekend. ;)
Cheers
Dan

Lorel Latorilla
08-17-2010, 08:51 AM
Well now Tom, you need to be careful. Are you qualified to have an opinion? Certain "informed sources" say you and most everyone else can't tell the difference between shoulder heavy, non-dantian driven, simple jin movement and real IP/aiki... regardless of where they have been and who they have felt.
So, certain "informed sources" are going to tell that you and many others just wasted your weekend. ;)
Cheers
Dan

Since Im in Toronto for the following week, I soooo wanna take the greyhound to Boston for some r34l AIKI!

Mike Sigman
08-17-2010, 09:05 AM
Well now Tom, you need to be careful. Are you qualified to have an opinion? Certain "informed sources" say you and most everyone else can't tell the difference between shoulder heavy, non-dantian driven, simple jin movement and real IP/aiki... regardless of where they have been and who they have felt.
So, certain "informed sources" are going to tell that you and many others just wasted your weekend. ;)
Cheers
DanWho are these "informed sources"? Could we get a quote/source so we can read those astounding remarks, also? Are they in the same messages where they call 'friendship' a 'cancer'? :rolleyes:

Why not let Tom tell us the difference himself, BTW? Or perhaps you could explain to us how dantien movement is done that moves the arms? These are good topics for AikiWeb, but somehow the subject keeps drifting to the subjective rather than any real how-to commentary.

Personally, I think it takes people a number of years to learn how to move things with the dantien/hara. Most people aren't able to transition to that mode, particularly in some art where they've moved mainly with the arms/shoulders for many years. Learning a few jin tricks is one thing; learning to move with the dantien/hara is another. If someone is looking for a 'path' to internal power that uses the dantien/hara (I believer Ueshiba, Tohei, and others have mentioned such a thing), it's certainly a topic that deserves serious discussion. Perhaps you could give us a few pointers since you have been doing these things for so many years, etc.?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

DH
08-17-2010, 09:13 AM
Who are these "informed sources"? Could we get a quote/source so we can read those astounding remarks, also? Are they in the same messages where they call 'friendship' a 'cancer'? :rolleyes:

Why not let Tom tell us the difference himself, BTW? Or perhaps you could explain to us how dantien movement is done that moves the arms? These are good topics for AikiWeb, but somehow the subject keeps drifting to the subjective rather than any real how-to commentary.

Personally, I think it takes people a number of years to learn how to move things with the dantien/hara. Most people aren't able to transition to that mode, particularly in some art where they've moved mainly with the arms/shoulders for many years. Learning a few jin tricks is one thing; learning to move with the dantien/hara is another. If someone is looking for a 'path' to internal power that uses the dantien/hara (I believer Ueshiba, Tohei, and others have mentioned such a thing), it's certainly a topic that deserves serious discussion. Perhaps you could give us a few pointers since you have been doing these things for so many years, etc.?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Well now Mike, you will have to tell us... since it is you have stated right here that "certain informed sources" (your quote) tell you that is how I move; shoulder heavy, non dantian and with simple jin tricks.
Please do tell us who they are so we can have a better understanding.:D

Dan

Mike Sigman
08-17-2010, 09:19 AM
Well now Mike, you will have to tell us... since it is you have stated right here that "certain informed sources" (your quote) tell you that is how I move; shoulder heavy, non dantian and with simple jin tricks.
Please do tell us who they are so we can have a better understanding.:D
A worthy Dan-answer, indeed. Why not ask Tom? He was recently at a workshop in San Francisco (a few months back) and I'm certain he's made great strides since then. He should be able to give you a few pointers. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

DH
08-17-2010, 09:28 AM
I asked you who these supposed "informed sources" were you keep pointing to...to validate your consistently negative comments about me. Try to follow along.

Mike Sigman
08-17-2010, 09:36 AM
Let's see if I'm following this. You make a statement discussing "informed sources":
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=263126&postcount=162

And now you want to know who the "informed sources" are? I make it Dan = 1 Strawman = 0 with that one.

But back to the topic... why don't you and/or Tom give us some pointers on how to move with the dantien? As I've noted before, you're on record as downplaying moving with the dantien because there are "other ways" to develop internal strength. Apparently you're a master of all methods, so I was simply asking you to explain why you trivialize my comments about moving from the dantien. Apparently it is something fairly easy to do and/or to changeover to, in your opinion. In my opinion, it's difficult. If it's easy, I thought you could shed some light on how to do it for us.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Budd
08-17-2010, 09:43 AM
Since Im in Toronto for the following week, I soooo wanna take the greyhound to Boston for some r34l AIKI!

Psst, come just over the border and we can play - haven't gotten hands on anyone that does Ark's stuff . Telling you up front, tho, I use too much shoulder and not enough dantien!

DH
08-17-2010, 10:18 AM
Let's see if I'm following this. You make a statement discussing "informed sources":
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=263126&postcount=162

And now you want to know who the "informed sources" are? I make it Dan = 1 Strawman = 0 with that one.

But back to the topic... why don't you and/or Tom give us some pointers on how to move with the dantien? As I've noted before, you're on record as downplaying moving with the dantien because there are "other ways" to develop internal strength. Apparently you're a master of all methods, so I was simply asking you to explain why you trivialize my comments about moving from the dantien. Apparently it is something fairly easy to do and/or to changeover to, in your opinion. In my opinion, it's difficult. If it's easy, I thought you could shed some light on how to do it for us.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

You missed the point. I was quoting... you...in that post. Maybe I should have named you as the one who always says this tripe and gossip. The " informed sources" was an exact quote of what you have said. I have pointed out to you before that I dont't put much stocking gossip and gave you an example of things I had heard. I actually agree that it is hard for some people to tell the difference with certain things. For that reason I suggest they continue to research and get out there andmeet others and get an education. I just don't use it to hammer people either behind their back or in public. Its always best to talk about someone as if they are in the same room.

Still missquoting me about the dantien I see. That was about spear shaking I believe. Your own understanding and specific example of store and release is not the only way to use the dantien. For the most part I don't really concern myself with you and what you do or don't do, except when you discuss things as an absolute when they are not.
Dan

Lee Salzman
08-17-2010, 10:43 AM
I actually agree that it is hard for some people to tell the difference with certain things. For that reason I suggest they continue to research and get out there andmeet others and get an education.

Forgive me for interjecting, but I just noticed you two agreed on something. Quick, someone take a screenshot! :)

So before this discussion goes to dark places again (queue cutscene of Tron light cycle game ending in spectacular mutually assured destruction here), let me ask a discussion prompt:

Since people are going to be a coy with talking shop about how not to move in shoulder driven manner anyway, then what about flipping the question around instead: what are ways us plebians can use to determine when movement is being done in a deleterious shoulder driven way, that can be observed in an unarguable mechanical failure of some sort that one can't game their way out of via any tricks that could make someone doubt the result? Does such a thing even exist, I mean is there some way us beginners can go and make sure we're truly not learning the wrong things? In other words, a true litmus test for the wrong thing, as opposed to the right thing.

chillzATL
08-17-2010, 11:02 AM
Forgive me for interjecting, but I just noticed you two agreed on something. Quick, someone take a screenshot! :)

So before this discussion goes to dark places again (queue cutscene of Tron light cycle game ending in spectacular mutually assured destruction here), let me ask a discussion prompt:

Since people are going to be a coy with talking shop about how not to move in shoulder driven manner anyway, then what about flipping the question around instead: what are ways us plebians can use to determine when movement is being done in a deleterious shoulder driven way, that can be observed in an unarguable mechanical failure of some sort that one can't game their way out of via any tricks that could make someone doubt the result? Does such a thing even exist, I mean is there some way us beginners can go and make sure we're truly not learning the wrong things? In other words, a true litmus test for the wrong thing, as opposed to the right thing.

Lee,

Would you mind spinning your question off into a new thread? This one is shot I'm afraid and it's a good question you're asking. A new thread would make it easier to follow if someone stumbles across it at some point in the future.

HL1978
08-17-2010, 11:35 AM
Since people are going to be a coy with talking shop about how not to move in shoulder driven manner anyway, then what about flipping the question around instead: what are ways us plebians can use to determine when movement is being done in a deleterious shoulder driven way, that can be observed in an unarguable mechanical failure of some sort that one can't game their way out of via any tricks that could make someone doubt the result? Does such a thing even exist, I mean is there some way us beginners can go and make sure we're truly not learning the wrong things? In other words, a true litmus test for the wrong thing, as opposed to the right thing.

You probably won't know if all you know is shoulder driven movement in terms of feel.

There are some things you can watch for. For example for suburi watch the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mbE5PAKfAU

The motion begins in the middle of the body and propagates outwards into the arms and legs. This forces the arms back (and the weightshift back). This is followed by a closing motion as the weight shifts forwards. You might notice some motion in the front leg as the body becomes convex to offset the "crunch" in the middle.

compare this to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Viwj...eature=related

at ~2:55 or so where its all arm movement with no motion going from the middle on out (or weight shift).

Budd
08-17-2010, 12:34 PM
Since people are going to be a coy with talking shop about how not to move in shoulder driven manner anyway, then what about flipping the question around instead: what are ways us plebians can use to determine when movement is being done in a deleterious shoulder driven way, that can be observed in an unarguable mechanical failure of some sort that one can't game their way out of via any tricks that could make someone doubt the result? Does such a thing even exist, I mean is there some way us beginners can go and make sure we're truly not learning the wrong things? In other words, a true litmus test for the wrong thing, as opposed to the right thing.

As a fellow plebe, something I've been working on over the years is the idea of letting my upper body just "hang" on things via the contact points of my hands (chairs, railings, walls, etc.). Then seeing how I can do the following check points (for example) - both as synchronous and asynchronous steps as well, for training purposes:

1) Hook up the connections "inside", stretch them with your breath, then your intent - how does that affect the object you are connecting to? How does is affect you through the connected object?

2) Put the feeling of the ground "pushing you up" and gravity "pulling you down" as cleanly in your hands (or any other contact point) as possible.

3) The legs, middle and back should be doing the "work" (along with your breath, intent and managed connections, yadda yadda)

4) While the legs, middle and back are doing the "work", you should be "listening" to what's going on inside "you" to minimize any blockages from flexing local muscles (they will try to "help", yes they will, particularly the shoulders, even when you swear to all you own that they are not "helping", they are, yes, they are, damn them)

5) The intent training is different from the conditioning training is different from the strengthening training, yet they all work together (or should as you make progress) and at worst, they should not be interfering with each other.

6) Different from the "intent" training (but related) is "listening" to what's going on inside yourself and isolating the bits you need to improve and make progress.

At least those are some basic primers for my mental map - YMMV/FWIW/ETC

Mike Sigman
08-17-2010, 12:50 PM
Lee,

Would you mind spinning your question off into a new thread? This one is shot I'm afraid and it's a good question you're asking. A new thread would make it easier to follow if someone stumbles across it at some point in the future.Jason, I've brought this thing about the dantien up before and a number of people didn't realize the seriousness of the issue at the time. However, the topic is germane in terms of this thread-topic "What paths lead to internal power??". Essentially the topic devolves, as I've said previously in this thread and in a number of other threads, to the fact that "internal strength" is not a simply-defined topic like "shooting basketball hoops" where you either can or cannot do some example.

There is a very big difference between full-blown internal-strength skills and a diverse number of partial-skill approaches. In Chinese martial-arts there are general distinctions made between "internal-style" martial-arts and "external-style" martial arts, but actually all the external martial-arts that I'm familiar with are based on the principles that most people here call "internal strength". I.e., the general understanding of these skills is so poor at the moment that most westerners think that some jin/kokyu skills put them "in the know" in terms of doing "internal strength" or "internal power".

The point to bear in mind is that in Aikido there are clear statements from Ueshiba, Tohei, and others about 'complete relaxation' and 'use the hara'. A lot of martial-styles and wannabe-masters use more what I'd call "muscle-jin" variants of "internal" training. This is not a bad thing because it's at least a foot-in-the-door toward good kokyu skills, but people should bear in mind that there's enough complexity in these skills that there's plenty of room to go wrong and wind up somewhat off the kinds of skills that Ueshiba et al were advocating/demonstrating.

Basic jin skills, say in terms of being able to demonstrate static abilities like 'ki tests', are a good start. However, when a person goes from static to dynamic usage of jin/kokyu skills the easiest thing to do is to begin powering away with jin/kokyu (whether in aiki/hua-jin or in walking through someone's posture) and to never really learn how the dantien is actually used. I.e., the common scenario (and you can safely bet your house on it) is not going to be what Ueshiba, Tohei, and others were talking about (and there's room to discuss that; it's not settled).

Let me re-emphasize that jin/kokyu skills are great and necessary (IMO) as a good first start, but other factors are important. While I appreciate the interesting ideas like "these men are teachers.." and that people will be able to recognize various subtlies as they arise, my experience is that this is not true. So I offered that bit of advice and people can take it or ignore it since in the main I'm more interested in watching what people in Aikido do with the football that has been tossed to them. But in terms of the topic about "paths", the dantien/hara discussion is very important, as are a few other topics that have never been discussed on this forum. I.e., this whole subject is a very complex topic... it's not some singularly-defined merit-badge skill that is simply added to one's own already-excellent Aikido (or other art) skills.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Thomas Campbell
08-17-2010, 01:42 PM
Occasionally, Route 28 near Boston takes you to internal power.



Well now Tom, you need to be careful. [snip]

real IP/aiki [snip]

Cheers
Dan

Sorry, Dan, I wasn't clear . . . I was talking about batteries from Boston Power, not "real IP/aiki" (whatever the hell that is).

http://www.boston-power.com

They've developed new lithium-ion batteries with really clean lines of power, no pulsing required to muscle through gaps in connection . . . excellent internal chemistry. Environmentally sustainable too!

What is "real IP/aiki"? :confused: And why would I ask about it on this forum? Apparently no one posting here knows much about it: http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=262888&postcount=128

If you find someone who knows anything about IP/aiki, please let me know so I can tell my friends. They've been asking.

But as I mentioned, I was talking about batteries. And I should have said Route 9, not Route 28. My bad. :crazy:

AllanF
08-17-2010, 11:15 PM
Sorry, Dan, I wasn't clear . . . I was talking about batteries from Boston Power, not "real IP/aiki" (whatever the hell that is).

http://www.boston-power.com

They've developed new lithium-ion batteries with really clean lines of power, no pulsing required to muscle through gaps in connection . . . excellent internal chemistry. Environmentally sustainable too!

What is "real IP/aiki"? :confused: And why would I ask about it on this forum? Apparently no one posting here knows much about it: http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=262888&postcount=128

If you find someone who knows anything about IP/aiki, please let me know so I can tell my friends. They've been asking.

But as I mentioned, I was talking about batteries. And I should have said Route 9, not Route 28. My bad. :crazy:

This battery place sound like it might be worth a look! I do like a good battery!

Lee Salzman
08-17-2010, 11:24 PM
This battery place sound like it might be worth a look! I do like a good battery!

Chinese battery technology is rumored to be exceptional...

DH
08-18-2010, 09:15 AM
You probably won't know if all you know is shoulder driven movement in terms of feel.

There are some things you can watch for. For example for suburi watch the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mbE5PAKfAU

The motion begins in the middle of the body and propagates outwards into the arms and legs. This forces the arms back (and the weightshift back). This is followed by a closing motion as the weight shifts forwards. You might notice some motion in the front leg as the body becomes convex to offset the "crunch" in the middle.
Hi Hunter
Well I don't like it, and you can bet the house on the fact that there are "others" in certain koryu arts who wouldn't look twice at it either. There are better ways to move and frankly his body movements are a dead give away of what NOT to do if you were looking for mobility and consistent power. This ties in to what I was talking about with spear shaking. Some guys opt for this certain store and release model that can issue good power, and it echoes what they do in their crossing hands, but like this guy here, you can see it a mile off, it is limited and it has a start and finish that is both limiting and obvious. There are better ways to move where the power is continuously accessible and very free. That way of moving would never cut it in certain circles, but because it does have some power it can fool a lot of people into thinking "This must be... the... way."
I would never move like that and yet I cut through 3" trees. Some can try to convince you and others here it is muscle. People can believe whatever internet nonsense they like. yet I have taught women and smaller men to do the same thing. Weapons can be very defining when it comes to muscle use.
Most people with real weapons experience know this already.

Leaving you aside for a moment I would address this whole "essence of everything" theory that keeps coming up. It isn't said, it is just implied. Internal movement is not all the same, internal skills in use even more so (although there are certain key components in IP that are universal).

This video and others with Ueshiba sword cutting have been talked to death here. They are yet another example of people in certain circles talking past their own skill level and thinking they get it. Lumping the body mechanics of Ueshiba and Tohei together (Tohei and Ueshiba did NOT move the same way) and then arm chair quarterbacking the body use in Japanese weapons and lumping them together as well.
I have seen certain so called internal coaches advertising their movement is directly related to the use of Japanese weapons, when it is glaringly obvious, and well discussed in certain... cough... "informed circles" that you just cannot move that way with weapons. Of course you would have to know the difference to understand why. Some of these things are pretty direct and easily shown, better still demonstrated by taking apart senior exponents in those arts. Talk is cheap.
People carefully qualify that not all internal training is the same....but when you see them on all these boards discussing ; Judo, jujutsu, Karate, Taichi, Bagua, Xing I, AIkido, Daito ryu and Koryu weapons with their "essence of everything" theories without ever managing to actually show competent skills in those arts or clearly demonstrate...to those who ARE competent in those arts, how their own arts operate with and without IP/aiki components and where they make a difference and instead default back to talking...about the "essence of everything" theory, it leaves me and others to wonder. Again ...talk is cheap. Oh well.
Power is a good thing, but it is the first baby step on your way to true competence, it can be overcome. I guess when people are unfamiliar with that type of power it can be impressive. However, expressing IP/aiki in a full range of movement in martial disciplines involves a more sophisticated and complex understanding than that.
I guess I will just have to agree with them.
"IP/aiki training is not all the same."
As they say....buyer beware. It pays to go to a lot of places and get what you need as you grow in the arts.
Cheers
Dan

DH
08-18-2010, 09:38 AM
Edit:
Wanted to be clear that I was not equating his movement to spear shaking but rather there is a quality of telegraphing and one-stop action. It might be okay for solo training but I just wouldn't bother when you can do other things that are a continuos delivery of power with better mobility.
Dan

Mike Sigman
08-18-2010, 09:42 AM
Leaving you aside for a moment I would address this whole "essence of everything" theory that keeps coming up. It isn't said, it is just implied. Internal movement is not all the same, internal skills in use even more so (although there are certain key components in IP that are universal). Well, you've covered your bases both ways, so which is it.... is there an "essence of everything" or is there not? If there are certain key components that are universal, that seems to say "essence of everything" to me. In terms of there being a number of variations, I've said that many times for many years. If you don't think there is an "essence of everything" then you miss the point of everyone using the Yin-Yang cosmology and where it probably started. Show me an Asian martial-art that doesn't justify itself through Yin-Yang, Heaven-Earth-Man, and so on... the ones that use that cosmology and all its secret meanings are the ones that use the same core principles that we're talking about. Including the hara as a basis for movement. Are there coarser, less-informed styles that don't use the hara very much/well (and other things, too)? Of course. The essence is the same though... at least enough that the general statement is pretty obvious and is recognized by every real Chinese expert I've spoken to about it. This video and others with Ueshiba sword cutting have been talked to death here. They are yet another example of people in certain circles talking past their own skill level and thinking they get it. Poor Ueshiba. If only he'd lived near Massachusetts. Lumping the body mechanics of Ueshiba and Tohei together (Tohei and Ueshiba did NOT move the same way)

Odd.... I've said exactly that same thing a number of times right on this very forum. It's archived. However, there are aspects of Ueshiba's and Tohei's movements that are same/similar because of the particular approach they both took and Tohei admits that he learned that part of it from Ueshiba (or at least got the inspiration, although he may have gotten the how-to from Tempu Nakamura). In other words, there is a general approach to internal strength that is fairly clear in both Ueshiba and Tohei. Easy to see. It's also easy to see when someone may have some other methodology of I.S. and is applying it to their version of Aikido (or Aikido-related techniques).

The point I was making was about the hara/dantien and that the usage of the body through that manner is what I see spoken about and demonstrated by people like Ueshiba and Tohei (and some others)... so if someone wants a "path to internal power", that's certainly an important consideration. And it's also a bit harder to do than people think.

Are there shortcuts of various "purity" out there? Sure. And I encourage people to have some skills rather than no skills, so half a loaf is better than none. At the moment a lot of people have seen and understood the logic and applicability of various jin/kokyu-related skills, but IMO that's just the start of future possibilities. It's nice to watch. The people who are still sitting in the bleachers thinking "this too will pass", that's interesting to watch also. I enjoy the human drama. :straightf

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
08-18-2010, 09:46 AM
Edit:
Wanted to be clear that I was not equating his movement to spear shaking but rather there is a quality of telegraphing and one-stop action. It might be okay for solo training but I just wouldn't bother when you can do other things that are a continuos delivery of power with better mobility.
DanI believe that statement's a keeper, Dan. People should put it in their files where they can look at it often. :D

DH
08-18-2010, 09:57 AM
Well I happen to agree with some of your points. I was covering both bases as both bases need to be covered.
Poor Ueshiba? You are insinuating something past my meaning. The only reference being "his movements have been talked to death here" by people who don't do weapons or have any IP/aiki skills to speak of.
How many people have talked about his movement with weapons...including you?

Dan

DH
08-18-2010, 10:26 AM
I believe that statement's a keeper, Dan. People should put it in their files where they can look at it often. :D
Go right ahead. That store and release model is not as universal as you make it out to be across the board, It would also never fly with more informed sources. Again we can go back to certain core principles, but they can be expressed in different ways. Not the least of which is this guy stepping up into it and the energy drawing back at the end. Hunter drew attention to his legs, which to me is a dead give away of certain things I would NEVER do.
Surely, someone like you would know other ways that leave the legs more mobile and do not involve that particular movement, but also incorporate the use of the hara in a snapping motion? It is a well known concept in dantien use in certain ICMA and fits in well with a variety of weapons and empty hand! ;)

Archives are good. Just like that taichi fighter video you put up here and called it a good fight and example of IP... where everyone else saw what I saw...he was paired with a newbie who had his own hands down through most of the fight as he threw himself at the guy.
You see what you can see...and you own it. Certain things come with more experience, Mike we all can't know everything.
I strongly advocate archives. I enjoy blowing up your ridiculous internet statements about me (and the ones you make in private).... in person where it counts; I use shoulders for power, not using dantien, not having internal power, only knowing simple jin skills, not knowing breath power, and other tripe.
As most will tell you; I treat you in a much more even handed and even complimentary fashion behind closed doors.
Dan

phitruong
08-18-2010, 11:22 AM
That store and release model is not as universal as you make it out to be across the board, It would also never fly with more informed sources. Again we can go back to certain core principles, but they can be expressed in different ways.
Dan

what other model(s) out there? are you saying that the S&R model isn't ideal for weapon? reason(s), please? or at least some hints? is it because S&R take too long to setup and telegraph the movement?

Mike Sigman
08-18-2010, 11:47 AM
Go right ahead. That store and release model is not as universal as you make it out to be across the board, It would also never fly with more informed sources. Really? I suspect you're going from some basic how-to training things shown in workshops and assuming that's the end-product, Dan. "Store-and-Release" is not universal in Asian martial arts? Thanks for the info. ;)

Just like that taichi fighter video you put up here and called it a good fight and example of IP... where everyone else saw what I saw...he was paired with a newbie who had his own hands down through most of the fight as he threw himself at the guy. Pooh... go look at it again. I simply meant that it was something outside of the usual push-hands, which is all the most westerners have ever seen. But, you're just pouting, so I won't hold it against you. Dan, see if you can say something about the hara and how to use it, if you want to show me that you're a real expert. As most will tell you; I treat you in a much more even handed and even complimentary fashion behind closed doors.
Dan, take a look at the comments I've made and the how-to expositions I've written. I'm interested in the topic. Period. The asides about personalities, who's greatest, "friendship", yada, yada, I see as simply a waste of time by the non-serious. This subject is very complex/deep and it's easy to sidetrack things into another round of one-eyed kings in the kingdom of the blind... I think it needs to go further than that. If people engage in a serious discussion, I treat them seriously. If they claim expertise but can't really explain things simply, then I don't take them seriously. For the people who are serious, I try to make comments that will be helpful to them sometime (such as the one about the hara and the indications that there are more matters in this complex issue). That's all I'm interested in. The personality discussions I realize are going to be experienced on non-technically-serious forums like this one, Rum Soaked Fist... to some degree. But I think they're a waste of time. Let's move on, shall we?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

DH
08-18-2010, 11:55 AM
what other model(s) out there? are you saying that the S&R model isn't ideal for weapon? reason(s), please? or at least some hints? is it because S&R take too long to setup and telegraph the movement?
Well contrary to some pretentious "one way to do things" model...I am only going to say that yes, sometimes the S&R model you see discussed and shown here is too slow and telegraphing.
Stand there with a spear in your hand and do not move your arms or shoulders and make the spear shake up and down and spiral in and out with only your body. Instantaneously transitioning, non-stop.
There is more than one way to do certain things. For certain purposes, one is better than the other.
Cheers
Dan

Mike Sigman
08-18-2010, 12:04 PM
Well contrary to some pretentious "one way to do things" model...I am only going to say that yes, sometimes the S&R model you see discussed and shown here is too slow and telegraphing.
Stand there with a spear in your hand and do not move your arms or shoulders and make the spear shake up and down and spiral in and out with only your body. Instantaneously transitioning, non-stop.
There is more than one way to do certain things. For certain purposes, one is better than the other.
Well, gee, that's odd. I watched Chen Xiaowang release 9 times in about one second, yet his beginning training had these sorta slow-but-correct store-and-releases. Think maybe it's a progression? In terms of speed of handling anything, I think you're probably misunderstanding the training as the end-product. But then again, what you're saying is much like the people who watch a Taiji form and say "it's too slow to ever be effective" and they make jokes about it, displaying their own ignorance more than anything else. :D

FWIW

Mike Sigman

DH
08-18-2010, 12:05 PM
The personality discussions I realize are going to be experienced on non-technically-serious forums like this one, Rum Soaked Fist... to some degree. But I think they're a waste of time. Let's move on, shall we?

You fire away at people...then claim personal attack pretty much as a standard MO, then ask to move on.:rolleyes:

I suspect you're going from some basic how-to training things shown in workshops and assuming that's the end-product, Dan. "Store-and-Release" is not universal in Asian martial arts? Thanks for the info. ;)
Did I say that? No, I did not.
Your stating that all store and release movement is all the same is just a suggestion of where you are at in your own understanding from workshops as an outsider looking in. Fine by me, I'm sure you'll get a lot of traction out of that in certain circles.;)

Dan

akiy
08-18-2010, 12:06 PM
Hi Dan, Mike,

Can you both please move away from your discussions of each other's posting manners and redirect your thoughts towards the topic of the thread?

Thank you,

-- Jun

DH
08-18-2010, 12:09 PM
Well, gee, that's odd. I watched Chen Xiaowang release 9 times in about one second, yet his beginning training had these sorta slow-but-correct store-and-releases. Think maybe it's a progression? In terms of speed of handling anything, I think you're probably misunderstanding the training as the end-product. But then again, what you're saying is much like the people who watch a Taiji form and say "it's too slow to ever be effective" and they make jokes about it, displaying their own ignorance more than anything else. :D

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Continuing to misquote me and lump me in with those I argue against myself does what?

Thats a fascinating comparison using CXW. Are you saying that the MJER fella is doing the same opening and closing as CXW? No, he isn't. The fact that you think so, says everything that need be said.

phitruong
08-18-2010, 12:17 PM
Stand there with a spear in your hand and do not move your arms or shoulders and make the spear shake up and down and spiral in and out with only your body. Instantaneously transitioning, non-stop.
There is more than one way to do certain things. For certain purposes, one is better than the other.
Cheers
Dan

are you talking about winding and unwinding (W&UW) model? if you are, wouldn't that just another form of S&R, as in winding to store and unwinding to release? or is it something entirely different?

Mike Sigman
08-18-2010, 12:36 PM
Continuing to misquote me and lump me in with those I argue against myself does what?

Thats a fascinating comparison using CXW. Are you saying that the MJER fella is doing the same opening and closing as CXW? No, he isn't. The fact that you think so, says everything that need be said.

Dan, I think just about everyone understands that you feel a need to pose as my senior in all these things. You needn't carry on the charade in every post, since the point has been made.

I've started a new thread on store-and-release so that that portion of the topic doesn't get lost in a silly argument because you don't understand the logic behind store-and-release and why it's everywhere. But read it and then let's pretend that you already knew all that and that it's "just basic stuff" and go from there. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

DH
08-18-2010, 04:09 PM
Better than you? Well, actually I think you have a good bit of knowledge, Mike. What you can actually do with it remains to be seen. I don't misquote ...you..nor do I have a need to come after you, like you do to me. I think it is simply unfortunate that you try so hard to convince people the discussion is as narrow as your own views.

Good luck in your training
Dan

akiy
08-18-2010, 04:32 PM
Thread closed.

-- Jun

gregstec
08-19-2010, 11:11 AM
And another one bites the dust....

Looks like you forgot to lock it, Jun :)