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Rabih Shanshiry
07-22-2010, 11:40 AM
Is it more effective to control uke by placing one's hand directly on the very center of uke's elbow or slightly above the exact center of the elbow (i.e. towards uke's shoulder)?

Any thoughts would be appreciated - especially those familiar with Yoshinkan technique.

Osu!

Steven
07-22-2010, 12:23 PM
The effectiveness of the control is going to be based on your technique, not necessarily the location on the arm/elbow. What may work on one person may not work on another.

Many years ago I trained with a gentlemen who had nerve damage from a gun shot wound that left him with no feeling in his entire arm. Made things interesting because 1) he did not feel pain and 2) he did not feel pain so as shite/tori/nage, you had no idea where the breaking point was.

That's my nickles worth ...

Rabih Shanshiry
07-22-2010, 06:52 PM
Thanks for your insights Sensei Miranda.

Am I correct in assuming that the standard instruction for ikkajo in Yoshnkan is placement of the controlling hand just off of the direct center of the elbow towards the shoulder?

...rab

Steven
07-23-2010, 09:45 AM
I've been taught both on or slightly off, so I can't comment on what's standard. Everyone's arm is different so you need to adjust accordingly. Personally, I teach it just above the elbow, around where the ulnar nerve is. But again, your mileage may vary.

Rob Watson
07-23-2010, 11:47 AM
I'm constantly reminded to have and maintain a strong grip with all the fingers ... not so much where to grab. Seems just proximal of the humerus head at the elbow is a bit of a 'handle' that the fingers settle into nicely. Sometimes it is the little and ring finger and sometimes it is the index and middle finger in that spot.

Seems more important once physical contact is made to right away obtain a solid grip and maintain contact (musubi) and kazushi.

Still working on it tho ...

Steven
07-23-2010, 12:04 PM
Robert,

I was agree about maintaining the contact. This is something I point out all the time. Students tend to release the grip once down then try to re-grip. I was taught to not release until your done. :)

DH
07-23-2010, 01:58 PM
Hi Rab
Without going into technique there are good reasons to try and control the fixed bone of the humorus instead of the more mobile elbow.
If you happen to run into someone who understands the connections that make "elbow power" a reality, then you will see that there are also very good reasons to avoid the elbow.
Cheers
Dan

Rabih Shanshiry
07-23-2010, 03:53 PM
Hi Rab
Without going into technique there are good reasons to try and control the fixed bone of the humorus instead of the more mobile elbow.
If you happen to run into someone who understands the connections that make "elbow power" a reality, then you will see that there are also very good reasons to avoid the elbow.
Cheers
Dan

I figured there was some wisdom there. Thanks for the confirmation Dan!

Buck
07-23-2010, 04:50 PM
Here is what I think is a good site that shows various applications of Ikkajo. In each video we see difference pertaining to the question. I am sure there is other videos of other well known senseis. And I am sure others who have experienced Ikkajo from these senseis can speak to this as well.

http://wazajournal.com/techniques/ikkyo/ikkyo-and-ikkajo-the-difference.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmZnJjW7NVo
In that link we clearly see they are showing where the hand placement is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU-MpyeVtLg
In this video, am assuming it is the parent jujutsu of Aikido, the hand isn't in the vicinity of the elbow.

I tend to follow the way Christian Tissier sensei does it. Putting the hand just behind the elbow and moving the elbow toward the ear. By placing the hand just behind the elbow, I feel allows for a very effective kazushi result. By far this isn't the only way. And am just saying that is how I do it, and I feel it is good for me. But here again this technique being a jujutsu combat technique has a different purpose and result than that of Aikido.

raul rodrigo
07-23-2010, 09:25 PM
Moving the elbow toward the ear was the way I was taught ikkyo as a white belt. Its a useful mnemonic, but bio-mechanically it offers very little advantage. It's all too easy for uke to counter, to bring force back along the same line and nullifying the effect. Imagining the technique as a kesa giri cut has had much better results for me in recent years.

Buck
07-24-2010, 02:14 AM
Moving the elbow toward the ear was the way I was taught ikkyo as a white belt. Its a useful mnemonic, but bio-mechanically it offers very little advantage. It's all too easy for uke to counter, to bring force back along the same line and nullifying the effect. Imagining the technique as a kesa giri cut has had much better results for me in recent years.

That is correct if you're driving force isn't bi-directional. The major points are, 1. misalign the uke's center. 2. shifting uke's weight to his back on his back foot as you break his posture in two stages each in two different directions, or on two different axis, so uke lacks axisymmetry, creating a change in his center of gravity and balance where he is unable to right his proper posture. His body is all messed up.

The counter, any technique can be countered. I am including all martial arts. In Chinese martial arts for example, all moves after the initial are a series of counters from both combatants. Counters are most successful when the other guy doesn't know what is coming, what to expect and understands the waza. And most of all has practiced the counter. Yoseikan Aikido is a wonderful resource for counters to Aikido. To counter Ikkajo, 1. When there is an opening strike the shi. that would be as the shi moves to catch the strike.

In fact to help the Shi do the waza, lock the elbow or have a slight bend in it as you make a committed strike. To do so put all your weight as you strike on your front foot and bend slightly forward at the waist as you strike. Keep a good maai where you're not too close. Your kazushi is already broken,and you're at arms length away when you come down with your strike. It's all easy pickings from there on in. That is how many people tend to do it in practice. Not all, some keep themselves upright and don't extend themselves when they strike. They know their maai and use it well, they keep a lower and even center of gravity, not breaking at the waist and keeping a straight lower back and aligned spine. When the move fowrard they are driving from their hara stepping in such away they don't shift their weight or lose balance. They are careful not to put too how much weight on anyone leg. And the don't over exaggerate the strike. Or perform the strike if the had imaginary armor on. This is just some examples.

The technique originally was a combat technique from feudal Japan seen is many feudal jujutsus in many variations. In one of the videos I posted it is done in seiza, for example. Which indicates a sword isn't in the uke's hand, rather a tonto or along those lines. And possibly the uke is in armor, or strikes without armor in the fashion of being in armor. I think that is why so many Aikido demonstrations closely resemble Aikido's parent of jujutsu.

Thanks for the discussion :)

Buck
07-24-2010, 02:19 AM
I don't like speaking about techniques in this matter and detail because things can be so easily misunderstood. But, I do ever once in while and I hope people will bear with me. I hope people will get a sense or feel of what I am talking about.

Buck
07-24-2010, 07:52 PM
I want to correct something, "Your kazushi is already broken..." This is incorrect. It should read, "Your balance is already broken." This provides, of course, an advantage to the Shi performing the waza. A very simple example and I am not claiming it as sliced bread. :)

Buck
07-24-2010, 09:10 PM
Now the root jujitsu Ikkajo technique catches the uke's arm at the apex of the strike. The type of strike use for Ikkajo, of course, is archaic. They strike styled in the manner of a sword, like I said also due to the limitation of move when wearing armor. The secondary hand is placed behind the elbow on the upper arm stopping the striking arm of the uke, and thus placing the uke's arm in the ideal position (at the apex of the strike). There there is less power coming from the upper arm of the uke making the arm easy to stop. The shi by keeping keeping the the uke's arm straight and kazushi achieved the shi then moves the arm behind the apex point of the uke's arm back into him toward his ear. The the shi moves the arm down into the pinning position as seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU-MpyeVtLg

If done correctly and the uke is unaware of the technique of Ikkajo, the secondary hand placed behind the elbow at the point of contact at the apex of the strike doesn't matter if the arm bends at the elbow. Because the upper arm is firmly in place for kazushi this position is weak for the arm to fight against the secondary hand. And because if the elbow bends, the result is demonstrated by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0TPWL-bhY

In a more modern strike that Ikkajo is used, the uke's arm isn't straight. The arm is bent, and isn't going to be raised straight ,as demonstrated in the first link of this post, to provide an opportunity for being caught at the apex. There are many variations people will throw and you see it with new students, and the strike isn't standardized like that of Japan and how many of us are taught to strike as the uke. Thus, Ikkajo isn't standardize in a modern situation. :)

Steven
07-25-2010, 04:23 PM
Shomen uchi ikkajo osae (1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM7XJ98gV74

Shomen uchi ikkajo osae (2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmZnJjW7NVo

Buck
07-25-2010, 05:53 PM
Shomen uchi ikkajo osae I put in my post. This one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM7XJ98gV74

It is interesting because the elbow of the Uke is going toward his own ear and the arm is bent. The Shi then walks him forward to the ground. There is no leading

Shomen uchi ikkajo osae
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmZnJjW7NVo[/QUOTE]

The shi does take the Uke's arm toward the ear, slightly and not as overlty as before. We can see that about :31 of the vid. And the Shi doesn't more the arm to a more acute angle as others do. The Shi increase the angle of the arm until it is straight and locked as he takes the Uke's arm downward while the Shi pivots around taking Uke to the ground to pin.

Both cases we see the elbow move to the ear. We see this happening in other vids etc. The thing too is the secondary hand is placed behind the elbow on the upper arm of the uke. One opinion is this is for stability, and control. And it is the philosophy of some to place the elbow toward or at the ear as a means of kazushi.

I figure finite nuances are out weighted by the big picture of the general application of the technique. That where exactly the secondary hand is place on the elbow vs. the general area where the hand is placed doesn't have an overwhelming impact on the result of the waza.
FWIW :)

Buck
07-26-2010, 10:57 AM
I think where you don't want to put the secondary hand is below the elbow on the lower part of arm (ulna and radius). Thereby, having both hands on the uke's lower arm. I have done and see it done as well the secondary hand being placed right at the elbow. This locks the arm straight and leading to keeping the arm locked out requires a rolling over of the arm. Here the Uke's locked arm is pushed to the ear first or it isn't, but in both cases the Uke's arm is turned over as it and moved downward to the pin.

I think for me, it has a bit less control than going beneath the elbow on the upper arm. But some Aikidoka I know, who do it this way, they make it work and are comfortable with this way.

If a person is into preserving a waza it should be preformed accordingly. Meaning it was done exactly in the same manner by a certain person, or marked by a particular method representing a particular style or school, then secondary hand placement is important.

If a person isn't bound by such tradition then precise secondary hand placement isn't as important. What is important in this case is what works for the individual. For example, one person my prefer the secondary hand on the elbow, and another individual may prefer like me to place the secondary hand just below the elbow to ease in moving the elbow toward Uke's ear to get kazushi that is favorable to the results I want from the Uke.

Ikkajo being from old jujitsu we have to assume the parent art of Aikido preforms it is under the assumption that both Shi and Uke are engaging possibly in armor, with or without a weapon, and as trained swordsmen- not working out side their sword world. And with Thus, providing a committed Shomen attack and defending against it within the confines of a swordsmen. All such wazas are approached and treated in this manner without variation. That is, all shomen strikes in the parent art of Aikido are treated the same way. The secondary hand is always placed in the same position and the arm is always dealt with in the same manner. Nothing changes. Flaw here is that this is true for the Uke's attack. That is a shomen strike is done in the same fashion each time and never changes. In this presentation the Uke never attempts to counter.

Whereas Aikido is more flexible and adjusts to different shomen strike variations and counters in general and in comparison. So this provides freedom of secondary hand placement, as well as moving the arm say to the ear vs. not.

Jonathan Guzzo
07-26-2010, 11:23 AM
As uke, I find that nage puts pressure anywhere on my elbow joint in ikkyo, I resist and try to bend my elbow. Moreover, I'm often successful and can reverse. If nage's hand is just above my elbow, toward my shoulder, I can't get my center under my shoulder, so it short-circuits my ability to take the technique back.

Patrick Hutchinson
07-26-2010, 11:25 AM
Mr. Burgess

I note that 7 out of the 17 responses are from you.

When you're waxing philosophical about non-technical matters I can let your anonymity slide, but when you're expressing preferences for one way of performing a technique over another, invoking apparent personal knowledge about the historical provenance of the technique, and giving out detailed advice to an audience, I would like to know the depth of your experience, please.

How am I to know that you're not just some 4th kyu (like myself) with a propensity to cut and paste other people's knowledge for your own self-aggrandizement?

Thank you in advance.

Buck
07-26-2010, 04:31 PM
Call it one big post I broke up. By giving such a detail post on how I do it and why. That is just me. Other's have other ways that work too. :)

Being on Aikiweb for a while having and having some experience, i.e. a small number of post 906 indicating I am moderately active here. the rules state we must avoid thread drift. I kindly ask you private message me in regard to your other questions. :)

C. David Henderson
07-26-2010, 05:01 PM
OK, try this question: You claim that where the hand makes contact -- with the elbow or above it -- is a "nuance" that has no "overwhelming result on the impact of the waza." Several other posters have suggested reasons why they consider one option more advantageous. Question -- what specific experiences or considerations lead you to consider this a mere nuance of no real importance, and why should we consider your view to be well-founded instead of poorly founded or unfounded?

Not about bickering, and not about personalities. Just a simple question you should be able to answer -- how do you know?

This question isn't off topic, it's necessary for you to answer in order for us to understand what you've contributed to this technical discussion and the statements you've made evaluating the importance of a particular technical detail in a particular technique.

So, if you choose not to answer it, it would seem you're signalling that people who need this information should ignore your contribution.

Buck
07-26-2010, 08:28 PM
OK, try this question: You claim that where the hand makes contact -- with the elbow or above it -- is a "nuance" that has no "overwhelming result on the impact of the waza." Several other posters have suggested reasons why they consider one option more advantageous. Question -- what specific experiences or considerations lead you to consider this a mere nuance of no real importance, and why should we consider your view to be well-founded instead of poorly founded or unfounded?

Not about bickering, and not about personalities. Just a simple question you should be able to answer -- how do you know?

This question isn't off topic, it's necessary for you to answer in order for us to understand what you've contributed to this technical discussion and the statements you've made evaluating the importance of a particular technical detail in a particular technique.

So, if you choose not to answer it, it would seem you're signalling that people who need this information should ignore your contribution.

Great question David my friend, I answered that very good question already. I happened to put the answer in a couple of posts. As that is laborious for all to go back through those posts, and read them, I will put it here in a abridged form.

Basically, what I was saying is as long as the hand is behind the elbow its all good. No need to worry about an exact location. Some people place the secondary hand at mid-arm. And others, like myself, place the secondary hand close to the elbow. And there are some who place the secondary hand on the elbow. When you visit other dojos and other styles, you will see this and other different hand placements. Allot of attention for some is focused on exact secondary hand placement, but that is not where the meat of the waza lies. As I said, if you place both hands on the lower arm then that is a problem. But, it's not a problem if the hand is above the elbow on the upper arm or more up on the upper arm. That is more of a matter of splitting hairs and lends itself more to preservation of technique, or adhering to the way one school teaches it and does it vs. another other.

Keith Larman
07-27-2010, 12:16 AM
Buck, what style of Aikido does it the way you've so carefully described?

Steven
07-27-2010, 12:30 AM
Instead of interrogating Philip, how about sharing how "YOU" do it. Be curious to see how different or the same your application is.

Keith Larman
07-27-2010, 09:01 AM
Well, honestly I am having a hard time following what Buck is saying and having trained a bit with people from various styles I was wondering if he was coming from one perspective or another since my experiences have varied given different styles.

In response to the OP I was taught to avoid the elbow for a variety of reasons. One being that it gives them quite an anchor to fight against. This is also in line with Dan up above about it being easier to control structure of the attacker if you worry more about the humerus instead of the more problematic elbow. How you go about that, however, varies quite a bit. I've been on the receiving end of some pretty muscular ikkyo as well as some very soft, flowing ones. But there are huge issues involved with these things as to how the ikkyo is itself done given varied attacks, styles, etc. So my ears perk up when someone posts with such detail and then says something like "that's not where the meat of the waza lies". Usually everything done in a technique like this depends on how everything else is done. So there are usually really good reasons given the overall philosophy of the style, methodology, teachings, etc.

Just looking for context.

DH
07-27-2010, 09:52 AM
Dealing with the arms should be a reduction of negatives. Why attack and try to control a series of rotational joints when you can avoid them and reduce it to one? Everything else is ancillary.
Speaking of avoidance,
Why do arts for the most part avoid training the body to cancel out ikkajo or Ippon Dori as a control in the first place instead of taking ukemi for it? Isn't it better to teach someone to do it, then also teach them to take ukemi for it, then teach them to cancel it out altogether so it no longer works on them? By the time you reach a certain level, shouldn't you be able to do, and then to stop, all of the waza in Aikido or Daito ryu with aiki? Then decide if you want to give up and catch air for the day?

Cheers
Dan

Buck
07-27-2010, 10:08 AM
Well, honestly I am having a hard time following what Buck is saying and having trained a bit with people from various styles I was wondering if he was coming from one perspective or another since my experiences have varied given different styles.

Just looking for context.

Keith my friend, I will be happy to explain any concerns you have in understanding what am saying. You just have to ask, I will be more than happy to explain? I am completely open, as I realize am not the easiest person to follow. I try to make it as simple and clear as I can. That is why I provided likes and the post being so long. I don't want to speak in codes, or in abstract terms or special language. I understand that for some such language provides creditability, if it sounds good, he must know what he is taking about. But rather, I want to give nuts and bolts, in plain understandable terms the best I can. And if I am not doing that I will be glad to address any foggy areas. I am not interested in self-promotion etc. I am more concerned in sharing information for the betterment of my learning and others. WIth that said, I am no expert. Just a student. :)

raul rodrigo
07-27-2010, 10:11 AM
My own concern is that Buck put in so much detail about a particular approach to ikkyo, which leads to the impression that there is one approach. Ikkyo is the technique that manifests the greatest amount of variation from shihan to shihan. Even among my own core training group of seven guys, who have been together for years and have gone to more or less the same teachers, none of us do it the same way. I would have been more receptive to an answer that gave a range (Shioda did it this way, Saito this way, Chiba this way) and gave the OP the space to figure out what worked best for him.

thisisnotreal
07-27-2010, 10:17 AM
Why do arts for the most part avoid training the body to cancel out ikkajo or Ippon Dori as a control in the first place instead of taking ukemi for it?
Isn't it somethign like this
-if taught at the beginning will just lead to force on force ego strength battle (?)
-first get used to force coming at you...get used to 'riding the force' outside you..(coarse movement). Do not panic. Condition body. a b c
-after some time...go for another level...riding the force inside you. Condition body differently
?

Keith Larman
07-27-2010, 10:40 AM
Keith my friend, I will be happy to explain any concerns you have in understanding what am saying.

To be honest, Buck, it is simply not worth the trouble. I'd like to think I'm reasonably literate. But for the life of me I can't understand most of what you type. And most of what you type here and elsewhere simply doesn't match up to any on-the-mat experiences I've ever had. It reminds me of speaking with rank beginners who've read all the books, say some of the right words, but who haven't actually done it yet. I could be wrong, of course, but honestly it's at the point where I can't bear seeing another 10 posts that I simply won't be able to follow. And being that I've got some experience under my belt I worry what beginners take from your posts. Maybe they're helpful to them, but I kinda doubt it.

Buck
07-27-2010, 10:56 AM
I understand it is a hard thing to talk about how to do a waza. I am not expert at that. I could simply say I use physics. I prefer the method of Christian Tessier Sensei to prevent a counter within the structure of Aikido. Out side of that structure would be to kick or punch with a free arm; or something else outside of Aikido's conventions. I feel the focus of secondary arm placement is secondary, where do you place it exactly doesn't have that much impact on the success of the waza. That is my opinion. I feel the focus should on kazushi as this is more of a focus for me.

I understand your position and where you are coming from. I understand also how you feel. I respect that. I will not be offended if we don't share ideas and knowledge anymore. I understand. The best to you and yours, in the spirit of Aikido. :)

Marc Abrams
07-27-2010, 11:02 AM
To be honest, Buck, it is simply not worth the trouble. I'd like to think I'm reasonably literate. But for the life of me I can't understand most of what you type. And most of what you type here and elsewhere simply doesn't match up to any on-the-mat experiences I've ever had. It reminds me of speaking with rank beginners who've read all the books, say some of the right words, but who haven't actually done it yet. I could be wrong, of course, but honestly it's at the point where I can't bear seeing another 10 posts that I simply won't be able to follow. And being that I've got some experience under my belt I worry what beginners take from your posts. Maybe they're helpful to them, but I kinda doubt it.

Keith:

Isn't it interesting how threads involving your new "friend" end up at the same place for most people? You seem to come to the conclusion and concern that many people do. Once again, a reasonable person would simply want to know where your new "friend" is coming from. A simple, PUBLIC history as to real martial arts experience would help clarify a lot. I am sure that your new "friend" is just frothing at the bit to provide all of with that information :rolleyes: !

Marc Abrams

C. David Henderson
07-27-2010, 11:20 AM
I understand the reasons to prefer seeking to control uke above the elbow joint. The way I understand it is in terms of the way my body reacts to some of the situations those posters referenced, and the way my partner's body reacts, as both nage and uke.

For example, the way we do basic gokyo from shomen involves entering and taking uke's balance by interrupting the strike. Uke's balance and structure are disrupted because the strike is interrupted while his/her elbow is "up by the ear" and behind their center and movement. The hand is placed above the elbow as nage enters.

I agree with Keith that a number of deliberate choices went into constructing each of the different versions of ikkyo I've been exposed to. So, when I read a detailed description of a particular version of ikkyo (taking balance by elbow-to-ear) followed by a dismissal of another issue (placement of the second hand), it struck me as a little odd.

I would expect this version of ikkyo to include a preference for placing the second hand above the elbow joint (towards the shoulder) because it feels consistent with the underlying strategy for unbalancing uke, in addition to reasons others have stated.

I felt like since I jumped in, I'd offer this. I will say I am weary of being intentionally misconstrued, protestations of friendship notwithstanding.

Keith Larman
07-27-2010, 11:57 AM
I felt like since I jumped in, I'd offer this. I will say I am weary of being intentionally misconstrued, protestations of friendship notwithstanding.

Agreed.

SmilingNage
07-27-2010, 03:31 PM
I ve been seen and tried alot of the different executions and hands placements for ikkyo. The most efficient way for me(omote waza) is to cup the area to the inside of the elbow joint,where all the connective tissue for the bi and triceps are. If I catch the nerve that is there, then that's just gravy. Then its a cut straight down. Hopefully that will knock him off his feet or load all his weight on to his front foot. In which case, I follow the cut with a step to finish off uke's balance.

But standard rules apply, learn through training not through talking. Aikido is to be felt and experienced. You will learn far more from doing it than listening about it.

For a particular point of concern,relating to the authenticity of Buck's relative Aikido experience, he has been around long enough to have valid opinions. Whether or not you can understand them ,well that's entirely up to how he writes his posts and how the reader interrupts them. Now I will say this and try to keep his anonymity intact, there isn't a dojo in the North East USAF that doesn't know Buck.

On a personal note, I am a bit put off by the off topic attacks on Buck.

Marc Abrams
07-27-2010, 03:48 PM
I ve been seen and tried alot of the different executions and hands placements for ikkyo. The most efficient way for me(omote waza) is to cup the area to the inside of the elbow joint,where all the connective tissue for the bi and triceps are. If I catch the nerve that is there, then that's just gravy. Then its a cut straight down. Hopefully that will knock him off his feet or load all his weight on to his front foot. In which case, I follow the cut with a step to finish off uke's balance.

But standard rules apply, learn through training not through talking. Aikido is to be felt and experienced. You will learn far more from doing it than listening about it.

For a particular point of concern,relating to the authenticity of Buck's relative Aikido experience, he has been around long enough to have valid opinions. Whether or not you can understand them ,well that's entirely up to how he writes his posts and how the reader interrupts them. Now I will say this and try to keep his anonymity intact, there isn't a dojo in the North East USAF that doesn't know Buck.

On a personal note, I am a bit put off by the off topic attacks on Buck.

William:

I simply disagree with your premise regarding being around long enough to have a valid opinion. If a person has been practicing 10 years and have done nothing right during those 10 years and do not realize it, is that person's opinion's valid. The same holds true for someone who has been practicing for 1 year. Simply look at the long and storied history of the posts of the person in question. More often than not, people end up telling him that his is not on track, is not making sense, is providing a "shell" of an answer,.......

I frankly do not give a rat's rear-end as to whether or not all of the North East USAF dojos know the poster in question. We have a valid right and valid reasons for asking for some real answers to his experience, training, ..... so that we can better understand his answers and where he is coming from. His lack of overt answers speak a lot louder than people who, for what ever reasons they can muster, seem to come to his "defense." Honesty is the best policy in my book, what about yours?

Marc Abrams

Rabih Shanshiry
07-27-2010, 04:24 PM
Jun has incorporated a wonderful feature into Aikiweb. It's called The Ignore List.

I recommend using that feature if you find a particular person's posts consistently unhelpful or aggravating in some way. Try it - you'll like it!

Just wish there was an ignore list for all facets of life! :D

C. David Henderson
07-27-2010, 04:27 PM
I'm so not interested in debating this. I've given a fair try at obtaining clarification. Obviously, that isn't going to happen in a meaningful way. I'm done.

Keith Larman
07-27-2010, 05:20 PM
I'm so not interested in debating this. I've given a fair try at obtaining clarification. Obviously, that isn't going to happen in a meaningful way. I'm done.

Ditto.

Janet Rosen
07-27-2010, 06:45 PM
Okie dokie if we can get back on topic... I'm another vote strongly in favor of the above the elbow, and the variation I'm fondest of is the tegatana to the lower triceps so as the center enters, the cut rolls the upper arm over.

Marc Abrams
07-27-2010, 09:42 PM
Well folks, after some persistent prodding, someone (other than you know who) has taken some of the bait. It seems that Buck is a staff instructor at an established dojo in the USAF. I guess that some persistence from an instructor from a rinky-dink organization (me) has finally allowed us to begin to evaluate where Buck is coming from in his thoughts. I would personally like to thank the irritate person who provided me with this information. Myself and others can now begin to understand Buck in context of his Aikido background.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming :cool: .

Marc Abrams

phitruong
07-28-2010, 08:46 AM
Okie dokie if we can get back on topic... I'm another vote strongly in favor of the above the elbow, and the variation I'm fondest of is the tegatana to the lower triceps so as the center enters, the cut rolls the upper arm over.

something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHxBVgN8pwU#t=1m48s

prefer that approach as well. prefer to have my hands free for quick strikes if needed. don't like grabby approach.

Buck
07-28-2010, 09:50 AM
Is it more effective to control uke by placing one's hand directly on the very center of uke's elbow or slightly above the exact center of the elbow (i.e. towards uke's shoulder)?

Any thoughts would be appreciated - especially those familiar with Yoshinkan technique.

Osu!

To address the original post:

Here are some vids by various top Aikidoka sensei including O'Sensei demonstrating Ikkajo along with a parent jujitsu demo where I feel Ikkajo is rooted.

Parent jujitsu Ikkajo: The secondary hand position is above elbow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWWrCzu-AjA

A compilation Ikkajo demonstrations includes O'Sensei. All secondary hand position is above elbow. Except approx. 2 instances, one demonstrated at or near to the shoulder. The other seems one on the elbow as demo by Doshu http://wazajournal.com/techniques/ikkyo/ikkyo-and-ikkajo-the-difference.html both exceptions work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXTKJw8Gs4s

Takeda Yoshinobu sensei - a recent demo includes Ikkajo which is on the elbow as well. I included mainly because it is a recent vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c5yAq0ZAlA&feature=related

In all cases and variations it seems it does not matter where the secondary hand is placed, i.e. on elbow or above. Most demonstrating sensei's , OSensei and the parent jujitsu are above the elbow on the upper arm. Doshu seems to be placing it on the elbow, and I stress seems to. The model is then above the elbow. We see O'sensei did it and taught it above the elbow, we then can suppose that is how he learned it as the jujitsu vid demonstrates how they do it. With all these examples I would say the model show it is done at the elbow, but as we see and practice variations of hand placement work just as well, i.e. on the elbow (IF that is where Doshu is placing his hand, or nearer to the shoulder on the upper arm. :)

C. David Henderson
07-28-2010, 10:23 AM
Thank you for posting those videos.

I believe in the video of Doshu the initial contact with uke's arm is slightly above the elbow joint; as the technique continues, his hand still seemed anchored to the humerous element of the joint.

Perhaps some of this discussion reflects misunderstanding of terms.

raul rodrigo
07-28-2010, 10:28 AM
Nice example, Phi. I like Endo's ikkyo as well. Not that I can do it his way. A visiting Japanese shihan, a 7th dan and a good friend of Endo, said to me, "Only Endo shihan can do his techniques."

Marc Abrams
07-28-2010, 10:44 AM
something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHxBVgN8pwU#t=1m48s

prefer that approach as well. prefer to have my hands free for quick strikes if needed. don't like grabby approach.

Phil:

That was an excellent clip for a number of reasons:
1) Joint locks should never be focused on restraining one joint or area. They should be a cascade of actions that locks up the hip structure (like Dan mentioned in his post- turning the body into one big joint).

2) Grabbing [contracting muscles]( as opposed to a wrapping [like hands around a handle bar]), causes a reciprocal tension response that allows the person to reconstitute their balance and react effectively to what is being done to them.

3) The hand slightly behind the elbow, along with the hand at the wrist/hand area can cause an effect that I call joint blocking. When the person starts to move a joint, the pressure on that joint (elbow) will reflexively cause the opposite response. If a hand is placed on the elbow, the elbow should hopefully be hyper-extended in order to to allow the person to use the point of contact on the elbow to neutralize the movement.

4) By not fully committing yourself to grabbing, you allow yourself the freedom of movement to be able to do what ever is necessary. in a dynamic, evolving environment.

5) That clip displays a wonderful connection to the uke in which he allows the uke's tensions to result in the technique evolving into it's own effective range of motions.

Marc Abrams

raul rodrigo
07-28-2010, 10:49 AM
Nice example, Phi. I like Endo's ikkyo as well. Not that I can do it his way. A visiting Japanese shihan, a 7th dan and a good friend of Endo, said to me, "Only Endo shihan can do his techniques."

Buck
07-28-2010, 10:55 AM
this was to follow my last post, but I see during my compostion of this one people commented, keep in mind this doesn't speak to or respond to those posts- to avoid any confusion :)

It was mentioned earlier in the thread about counters and making the technique fail. In general it is my opinion and experience all techniques are susceptible being countered and failing. It is important to note that in these vids the technique is being demonstrated with a student, or as instructional demonstration, and they are not a live situation where such critiques are more reasonable.

We all know every technique be it Aikido or all martial arts can be countered or forced to fail.(,i.e. the most apparent is uke to move off the line into the Shi and strike with the other hand, out muscle the shi or something. Basically, point of that is, counter's don't have to be complex. The most effective and quickly learned are the simple ones as described :). If we spend allot of time training Ikkajo we see those flaws in the waza and we work to adjust or compensate for counters and failures to gain success. It is a part of the learning process, we fall down until we get up. And no one isn't subject being countered or stopping the waza. We are humans and not gods. The key then in my opinion (allways is my opinion) is to feel at contact through the uke's body if you have control of uke's balance, if there is connection, and if uke is able or going to counter and respond dealing with that all within the scope of Ikkajo. That takes allot of practice and experience to do.

The point being that secondary hand (in terms of control) should, imo, be telling us allot of information in our execution of Ikkajo. Thus, secondary hand placement imo has a twofold process. One, a mechanical function, and two a sensory function. Placement of the secondary hand behind the elbow applies to the mechanical function of the waza. And, it seems to effective on or above the elbow. Whereas, in terms of the sensory gains they are seemingly applicable to a greater and broader area of the uke's arm. That is something to discuss in greater detail elsewhere and with individual sensei's and shihans, as this was simply an overview.

Buck
07-28-2010, 02:01 PM
Thirdly, (continuing from my second to last post) in short as I don't want to get too detalied and casual in my post writing that leads to the posts being hard to follow. Thanks guys point well taken. :)

Dealing with the arms should be a reduction of negatives. Why attack and try to control a series of rotational joints when you can avoid them and reduce it to one? Everything else is ancillary.


Dan kindly points out something I am sure many of us maybe thinking about or have experienced. Ippon Dori, we can assume it was designed for and applied to a shomen sword cut (don't know the Japanese term for the cut so am faking it). That means both hands of opponent are on the hilt. The defender employs Ippon Dori as in the vid which keeps the attacker's arm straight. Verses employing a bend of the arm at the elbow as seen in several vids. Dan mentions it is best to deal with one joint and not two. Though the reason for Ippon Dori as I see it in the vids there is no bending of the elbow because the opponent having a sword in their hand cut inflict a wound. WIth this in mind, it make sense to deal with "one joint." Keep the opponent's arm straight controlling the weapon better. If you do Ippon Dori with a bokken you will see what I mean that keeping the arm straight is important not to being cut. Which seems to me the primary reason for keeping the arm straight. At the time when Aikido was being developed people where not carrying swords. And due to other aforementioned points in my previous posts armor wasn't be worn any more either. Rather modern applications lends to allowing the arm being bent. I think the arm being straight or bent has no significant bearing on waza performance. Rather it has bearing to historical purposes.

Point being both ways work I am not sure if one has an advantage mechanically over the other. If faced with a sword or such is in the hand of the opponent to avoid being cut. I would think keeping the arm straight (dealing with one joint) is he natural adaptation to control and disarm the weapon. If you try Ikkajo with a bokken or simulated armor restricting movements you may see what I mean. I am sure many already know this and have done this. I am not pointing out something new. But to show that I too through practice became aware of this. :)

I want to make it clear I am discussing a point Dan brought up, which I felt made sense and explored why it made sense.

Buck
07-28-2010, 02:25 PM
Correction: But to show that I too like many Aikidoka, through the practice of Aikido, became aware of this. :)

Peter Chenier
08-02-2010, 01:34 AM
Shame on all of you

Ikkajo/ikkyo is no waza :)