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David Yap
07-21-2010, 05:04 AM
Hi all,

I was directed to this website by one of Henry Wang sifu's students from Singapore. Wang sifu is now based in BC, Canada.

Interesting videos:

http://www.searchcentertaichi.com/notouch.html

David Y

Marc Abrams
07-21-2010, 07:30 AM
Hi all,

I was directed to this website by one of Henry Wang sifu's students from Singapore. Wang sifu is now based in BC, Canada.

Interesting videos:

http://www.searchcentertaichi.com/notouch.html

David Y

David:

My issue with this is not whether or not this person can project energy. This issue is with the people amplifying and reacting in a non-sensible manner to what they might be experiencing.

Marc Abrams

AllanF
07-21-2010, 07:38 AM
I'm afraid my issue is exactly if the person can project energy without touching or not and would be happy to call him on it as i have done with people here in China. So far, for some strange reason it only seems to work on their students!:eek: :(

mickeygelum
07-21-2010, 08:16 AM
for some strange reason it only seems to work on their students! ....So very true..:D

Without getting into the point-by-point failings in body mechanics, of the so-called ukes, why is it so difficult to say " This is not real "

Another example of why the world thinks Aikido is ox feces.

Mike Sigman
07-21-2010, 09:03 AM
Hi all,

I was directed to this website by one of Henry Wang sifu's students from Singapore. Wang sifu is now based in BC, Canada.

Interesting videos:

http://www.searchcentertaichi.com/notouch.html
Henry Wang's group has a reputation that is a lot closer to that of a cult than anything else. Hence the fairly obvious cooperation between teacher and student.

Here's an old video of Ma Yueh Liang, who had a fairly good reputation as a fighter when he was younger.... but note the over-deference from his student (good push-away, though). Ma could generate a lot of power without seeing the shoulders so involved like you see with Wang's side pushes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSyue-NAy6k&feature=related

About the closest you can get to "myterious" level power in actuality is something like this 94-year-old had developed over the years (I suspect he was very powerful in his prime):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA&feature=related

Of course, this kind of stuff isn't just relegated to Taiji, etc. You can find a lot it in too many places.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

David Orange
07-21-2010, 09:26 AM
Here's an old video of Ma Yueh Liang, who had a fairly good reputation as a fighter when he was younger.... but note the over-deference from his student (good push-away, though).

Here's an older clip of Ma Yueh Liang:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHQv6fLpIoI

Cheers.

David

Mike Sigman
07-21-2010, 09:42 AM
I never met Ma Yueh Liang, but I saw his son, Ma Jiang Bao, in Holland once. They're both recognizably of Mongolian origin (not Han Chinese), but what has caught my eye about them is that they appear to use some sort of qigong that really expands and strengthens their middle. Up close with MJB I was struck by this. And of course the ability to send someone away with little movement us directly related to the power of the abdominal region, in the qigong sense.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

David Orange
07-21-2010, 10:49 AM
...the ability to send someone away with little movement us directly related to the power of the abdominal region, in the qigong sense.

Mike, can you elaborate on how that physically functions? Especially when we see the opponent touching the forearm and being forcibly repelled with very little movement of the arm?

Thanks.

David

Mike Sigman
07-21-2010, 10:57 AM
Mike, can you elaborate on how that physically functions? Especially when we see the opponent touching the forearm and being forcibly repelled with very little movement of the arm?
The power doesn't originate in the arm, so the arm motion is not really important. And yes, I'm dodging a more complete answer, but each part of the answer would require reference to other things that also need explanation and other methods of conditioning, so I'd be landing myself in a quagmire. ;)

FWIW

Mike

Buck
07-21-2010, 11:21 AM
I'm afraid my issue is exactly if the person can project energy without touching or not and would be happy to call him on it as i have done with people here in China. So far, for some strange reason it only seems to work on their students!:eek: :(

I have read and heard this too. I read a Tai Chi magazine talking about this. And one of the major points was that it works on their students. This is just something I read. This may lead to the understanding of where that statement comes from:

From the article Mr. Yap posted about Henry Wang's no touch, "If we, as his students, choose to be insensitive and not respond to Master Wang’s energy, it is possible to resist it. But there is no point in such an attitude. The purpose of tai chi for us is to increase our body awareness and sensitivity, develop chi energy, and to improve our health."

Then we have to understand exactly what "projected energy" means from the Chinese Internal Martial Arts. "Projected energy" say is a translation of Jing. Jing has many forms or categories such as Tzeh Jing translated in many ways. One translation is Adopting power. Whereas, others are "taking," "borrowing" and all the related Thesaurus entires dependent how the Chinese word is initially translated. Point being it's confusing to know what information is being communicated by the phrase "Projected energy."

English speakers when we first hear the word "Jing" we have no idea what that means. We are told something like it is "Projected Energy" then we think that means some invisible visually undetectable defeating force coming out of someone's extremities. And the CMA will say it is from developing Qi Gong and we start all over again with trying to figure out what that means.

But, in this situation I think we have students completely convinced of said abilities, which I don't know are valid or not, in such a way that it clearly defines what Master Wang's "projected force" really is. Which explains why it works so well on his students. Therefore, giving credence to the common statement, 'that it only seems works on the master's students."

Buck
07-21-2010, 11:32 AM
For reference here is vids some may have seen that relate

projected power, physical defined
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dV90fvc0oA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwnF_3ovmaw&feature=related

a master demonstrating on his student http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGaWhP4lbys&feature=related

Mike Sigman
07-21-2010, 11:38 AM
The "jin" we're talking about (BTW, it's often spelled "jing" when used as a modifier, e.g. "jieh-jing") means essentially a 'trained force skill', something like a 'force vector'. It's the same force that is at the heart of the "ki tests", "kokyu throws", and so on. You train the release of those forces in conjunction with training the body via breathing-techniques/conditioning (aka "qigongs").... hence saying something like "breath throw" (kokyunage) is pretty accurate. You can see how silly this has become with some of the posted understandings about how kokyu gets mangled in definitions of 'breathing'.

A lot of the terminology had practical origins back in the old days. A "kong jing" (empty-force) skill originally was a legitimate study facet in martial-arts. You make a careful feint and your opponents reacts by moving in a certain direction... i.e., you make the technique work by affecting the opponent's ki/qi. E.g., a "ki throw". With only a little misunderstanding, a "ki throw" morphs into the ridiculous very quickly.

Rather than stay in a fixed position when an opponent hits you (if you absorb his potentially damaging blow, you "absorb his ki", in a negative sense), you should simply hop or move with the blow. This is a very logical tactic, but it has morphed in some systems (particularly in southern China) to where at the slightest cue the student bounces obligingly away. Anyone who doesn't bounce to some teachers' slight cues "hasn't developed the proper sensitivity".

And so it goes. The ability to release a lot of power is related quite naturally to being able to generate a fair amount of power without much overt movement. This makes for great demonstrations, but it has to be seen for what it is... a minor facet of the broad range of body training/conditioning that is in a full-blown martial art. As soon as I see some 'teacher' and his students spending a lot of time playing too much "bounce-away", "no-touch", etc., games, I tend to write them off.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

DonMagee
07-21-2010, 12:46 PM
Cult like followings are very easy to develop in martial arts. Many new students have confidence issues from the start (possibly the reason they are starting martial arts) and thus are easy to manipulate with promises of power and strength.

Once you get two or three of them, the rest fall in line by simply not wanting to be the odd man out in the group. You fall down because if you didn't you would get funny looks from your "friends" and kicked out of the group. Eventually you believe you are seriously getting knocked down and start to pass on the lie as truth. Next up comes making excuses when you start to try to show your skills to others and eventually the cycle restarts.

Just one more reason why being a skeptic is so important in life.

Thomas Campbell
07-21-2010, 12:54 PM
It's a shame that Wang let the "no-touch" stuff with his students become what he's most known for. His hands-on free-form tuishou and applications skill is actually pretty decent--although I don't know how much of that he's doing anymore.

DH
07-21-2010, 02:54 PM
It's a shame that Wang let the "no-touch" stuff with his students become what he's most known for. His hands-on free-form tuishou and applications skill is actually pretty decent--although I don't know how much of that he's doing anymore.
Interesting isn't it?
Ego can kill you. I prefer the healtheir wrestlers type of ego; one born of confidence from training in opposition. "When you lose you still win." Players like LCD who turned down a position as a rep, to train and routinely put himself out there in Japan and n China to test his stuff against jujutsu, judo, Daito ryu and Aikido, as well as western wrestlers, and other ICMA. Then we have Chen bing, Joe Chen, Sam Chin and others who are willing to "play" outside of push hands.
Dan

Buck
07-21-2010, 03:34 PM
The "jin" we're talking about (BTW, it's often spelled "jing" when used as a modifier, e.g. "jieh-jing") means essentially a 'trained force skill', something like a 'force vector'. It's the same force that is at the heart of the "ki tests", "kokyu throws", and so on. You train the release of those forces in conjunction with training the body via breathing-techniques/conditioning (aka "qigongs").... hence saying something like "breath throw" (kokyunage) is pretty accurate. You can see how silly this has become with some of the posted understandings about how kokyu gets mangled in definitions of 'breathing'.

A lot of the terminology had practical origins back in the old days. A "kong jing" (empty-force) skill originally was a legitimate study facet in martial-arts. You make a careful feint and your opponents reacts by moving in a certain direction... i.e., you make the technique work by affecting the opponent's ki/qi. E.g., a "ki throw". With only a little misunderstanding, a "ki throw" morphs into the ridiculous very quickly.

Rather than stay in a fixed position when an opponent hits you (if you absorb his potentially damaging blow, you "absorb his ki", in a negative sense), you should simply hop or move with the blow. This is a very logical tactic, but it has morphed in some systems (particularly in southern China) to where at the slightest cue the student bounces obligingly away. Anyone who doesn't bounce to some teachers' slight cues "hasn't developed the proper sensitivity".

And so it goes. The ability to release a lot of power is related quite naturally to being able to generate a fair amount of power without much overt movement. This makes for great demonstrations, but it has to be seen for what it is... a minor facet of the broad range of body training/conditioning that is in a full-blown martial art. As soon as I see some 'teacher' and his students spending a lot of time playing too much "bounce-away", "no-touch", etc., games, I tend to write them off.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike thanks for providing details. In my case with Jing explanations it is easy to pull from a books. I can sound really good when I have my books, or rewords things to sound like I know more deeply about things than I do when it comes to Chinese Martial Arts. But, I don't do that. I understand Jing on an overview level in the Chinese Martial Arts. Thanks for fleshing that out.:)

Mike Sigman
07-21-2010, 03:52 PM
In my case with Jing explanations it is easy to pull from a books. I can sound really good when I have my books, or rewords things to sound like I know more deeply about things than I do when it comes to Chinese Martial Arts. But, I don't do that. I understand Jing on an overview level in the Chinese Martial Arts. Thanks for fleshing that out.:)

Well, "Jin" is what Koichi Tohei is doing in his ki-tests, so anyone who uses "ki strength" or whatever nom de jour you want, understands basic jin. If you use jin strength in conjunction with someone else's input force, you have "aiki". It's that simple. Of course there are levels of skills and applications that can be developed; think of being able to play chords on a guitar versus the rasgueados and arpeggios of a master. Plus there are levels of body conditioning that assist jin skills. My point is that all of these things are the same things, if you understand enough to get past the nomenclature confusion and the fog of the 'experts' and teachers who don't really know anymore than most of the students about the subject. I.e., don't take any wooden nickels.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

David Yap
07-21-2010, 09:30 PM
...From the article Mr. Yap posted about Henry Wang's no touch, "If we, as his students, choose to be insensitive and not respond to Master Wang's energy, it is possible to resist it. But there is no point in such an attitude. The purpose of tai chi for us is to increase our body awareness and sensitivity, develop chi energy, and to improve our health." ..."

Hi Philip,

I think the statement also applies to Yoshinobu Takeda's teachings - just substitute "tai chi" with "aiki" and "Wang" with "Takeda".

Regards

David Y

Buck
07-21-2010, 10:51 PM
I am not sure and I am going to say it is so or not. The feats Wang does could be actual, if he is or isn't credible. I don't want to walk into that debate unless I have experienced it. But....when the students say what Wang student said it isn't something that can be ignored; along with a certain type of testimonials. What is the purpose of doing such feats? If it is to show master of a principle and someone goes over the top to keep people's attention- people do want more as unfortunate as it is audiences are there to be entertained. Is the feat being done in the dojo to inspire, even if it over the top. I think we can over look such things and give a little in that regard. But, is it for me the mentality and perspective, and attitude the students have toward the instructor's skills and abilities. People do believe their own press, and people will believe something that isn't possible to be possible for lots of reasons.

If the principle is there and it is demonstrated in exaggeration without any press that for me is tolerable. But when you have people, rationalizing things as Wang's student than that is a major concern.

Buck
07-21-2010, 11:25 PM
Hi Philip,

I think the statement also applies to Yoshinobu Takeda's teachings - just substitute "tai chi" with "aiki" and "Wang" with "Takeda".

Regards

David Y

Dave with all due respect, with no intention of being argumentative, nor thinking you must agree, and I am not even read you clearly getting your meaning. But here goes.

With Wang my concern was his student's rationalization, and views. In Takeda's case, seeing him just now for the first time on YouTube, he is demonstrating principles, and not professing projecting a some kind of power. Many times do I watch skilled craftsmen with years of experience do things seemly effortlessly. Ever watch a pro float concrete, I mean a guy who has been doing for 15 years, who apprenticed? It is amazing how similar such a man and Takeda move. It is as if the pro floater wasn't touching the cement at all with this floater. As if the water magically rose to the surface of the concrete. Watching such a guy work is magic.

Or better yet, watching Tiger Woods or some pro golfer who has the best swing in the world, btw I don't play much golf, would be par with Takeda. In contrast to someone saying they can hit a ball without hitting it with a club and the caddy rationalizing it the same way as Wang's student is something of a concern.

I see Takeda showing Aikido techniques, where as I see Wang demonstrating a feat. It isn't an issue for me if both men are actually effective. Again, it is the state of mind of the students.

DonMagee
07-22-2010, 07:30 AM
I am not sure and I am going to say it is so or not. The feats Wang does could be actual, if he is or isn't credible. I don't want to walk into that debate unless I have experienced it. But....when the students say what Wang student said it isn't something that can be ignored; along with a certain type of testimonials. What is the purpose of doing such feats? If it is to show master of a principle and someone goes over the top to keep people's attention- people do want more as unfortunate as it is audiences are there to be entertained. Is the feat being done in the dojo to inspire, even if it over the top. I think we can over look such things and give a little in that regard. But, is it for me the mentality and perspective, and attitude the students have toward the instructor's skills and abilities. People do believe their own press, and people will believe something that isn't possible to be possible for lots of reasons.

If the principle is there and it is demonstrated in exaggeration without any press that for me is tolerable. But when you have people, rationalizing things as Wang's student than that is a major concern.

Well, if no touch knock out powers worked on everyone, there would be an easy $1,000,000.00 in his future via http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html

thisisnotreal
07-22-2010, 07:50 AM
Cult like followings are very easy to develop in martial arts. Many new students have confidence issues from the start (possibly the reason they are starting martial arts) and thus are easy to manipulate with promises of power and strength.

Once you get two or three of them, the rest fall in line by simply not wanting to be the odd man out in the group. You fall down because if you didn't you would get funny looks from your "friends" and kicked out of the group. Eventually you believe you are seriously getting knocked down and start to pass on the lie as truth. Next up comes making excuses when you start to try to show your skills to others and eventually the cycle restarts.

Just one more reason why being a skeptic is so important in life.
Don,
These are some excellent points. I'm currently looking into starting a cult; and am wondering if you had any other ideas along these lines.
Thanks,
Josh "Hodjie" P.

p.s. good post! .. just kidding around.

DH
07-22-2010, 07:58 AM
Rule #1 Always try your stuff out....outside of your art.
Rule #2 Always test yourself and never be satisfied.

Patrick Hutchinson
07-22-2010, 08:03 AM
You found Takeda demonstrating principles on YouTube?
Pray, do give us the link

Patrick Hutchinson
07-22-2010, 08:25 AM
never mind, sorry, I missed David's reference to Yoshinobu Takeda

Marc Abrams
07-22-2010, 08:27 AM
I am not sure and I am going to say it is so or not. The feats Wang does could be actual, if he is or isn't credible. I don't want to walk into that debate unless I have experienced it. But....when the students say what Wang student said it isn't something that can be ignored; along with a certain type of testimonials. What is the purpose of doing such feats? If it is to show master of a principle and someone goes over the top to keep people's attention- people do want more as unfortunate as it is audiences are there to be entertained. Is the feat being done in the dojo to inspire, even if it over the top. I think we can over look such things and give a little in that regard. But, is it for me the mentality and perspective, and attitude the students have toward the instructor's skills and abilities. People do believe their own press, and people will believe something that isn't possible to be possible for lots of reasons.

If the principle is there and it is demonstrated in exaggeration without any press that for me is tolerable. But when you have people, rationalizing things as Wang's student than that is a major concern.

Phillip:

People on this forum have been asking you for a LONG TIME NOW to step up to the plate and show us what you personally have to offer. We would love to meet you "experience" anything for that matter, so that we know what you do bring to the debate. Words are cheap and actions say it all. You seem to be good at cut and paste with things, but what do you really know and can show about any of this?

Marc Abrams

Buck
07-22-2010, 09:01 AM
Well, if no touch knock out powers worked on everyone, there would be an easy $1,000,000.00 in his future via http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html

I agree with these links
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dV90...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwnF_...eature=related

FWIW, For me, I haven't seen Wang's abilities tested, and at least one of his student is making rationalization of concern. That is one student I know of. I would have to read or hear other students. I am not going to judge Wang's professed ability to project energy, until I experience it. I just see him professing a special feat. Is he a fraud. don't know. He could be, or he couldn't.

We also know that Taoism became superstitious which became infused itself becoming a big part of Chinese martial arts.

I look at these type of things as truth in marketing. Wang can project energy, but how he defines and uses projection of energy and his purpose for it needs to be looked it. In addition to who is marketing him and why. Whether he can do no touch or not, Wang is following that Chinese martial arts Taoist platform. That is for better or worse. But usually, that platform is less impressive and archaic in our modern world.

Some Chinese martial artist uses their Qi to pull a bus with their genitalia. That catches people's attention and advertises the existence of Qi (which it self is very abstract and has many definitions) and attests to their skill. A skill personally am not interested in. But there is a point that a seemingly weak part of the body can be so strong. That Qi is a the root of such a feat to develop something weak into something strong.

That feat as weird as it is to me, is pointing out a purpose. Whether proving that Qi exists or not as an entity to itself, used at will isn't important to me. That is just a matter of language, explanation, and knowledge of an ability. Any such ability has to be closely looked at. I had heard stories of Chinese Martial Artists running up walls. I didn't believe it. Until that stunt became popular some years ago in the entertainment world. Plus, that French running over obstacles and doing acrobatic stunts became popular. And people where doing incredible feats like running up walls. So yes people can run up wall, but only to a point without the add of a mechanical device.

Point being for me it is not being skeptical rather than truth in advertising. Because the Chinese Martial Arts have that Taoism in it you have to pay close attention to what is being advertised.

David Yap
07-22-2010, 09:01 AM
Dave with all due respect, with no intention of being argumentative, nor thinking you must agree, and I am not even read you clearly getting your meaning. But here goes.

With Wang my concern was his student's rationalization, and views. In Takeda's case, seeing him just now for the first time on YouTube, he is demonstrating principles, and not professing projecting a some kind of power. Many times do I watch skilled craftsmen with years of experience do things seemly effortlessly. Ever watch a pro float concrete, I mean a guy who has been doing for 15 years, who apprenticed? It is amazing how similar such a man and Takeda move. It is as if the pro floater wasn't touching the cement at all with this floater. As if the water magically rose to the surface of the concrete. Watching such a guy work is magic.

Or better yet, watching Tiger Woods or some pro golfer who has the best swing in the world, btw I don't play much golf, would be par with Takeda. In contrast to someone saying they can hit a ball without hitting it with a club and the caddy rationalizing it the same way as Wang's student is something of a concern.

I see Takeda showing Aikido techniques, where as I see Wang demonstrating a feat. It isn't an issue for me if both men are actually effective. Again, it is the state of mind of the students.

Philip,

I was referring to Takeda's teaching not his feat or aikido techniques.

David Y

Buck
07-22-2010, 09:20 AM
Phillip:

People on this forum have been asking you for a LONG TIME NOW to step up to the plate and show us what you personally have to offer. We would love to meet you "experience" anything for that matter, so that we know what you do bring to the debate. Words are cheap and actions say it all. You seem to be good at cut and paste with things, but what do you really know and can show about any of this?

Marc Abrams

Marc, I have never met you, and I am really unclear what issues you may have. You are welcome to PM. But I don't believe the use of this forum is for the direction you are heading. Aikiweb, I feel, is a place to share knowledge for the betterment of those who come here seeking knowledge. I didn't believe that early on, and made an ass of myself behaving disrespectfully. Sadly, I subscribed to that and the disrespecting of the forum, due to misreading this forum. Jun, I believed, worked hard at getting the forum back on track. And I didn't see that or respect that. And that reflected badly on me.

But, I took some time off and re-evaluated my behavior and attitude on this forum. I feel disrespecting others with insults and jabs publicly on a forum is disrupting and disrespectful to the purpose of the forum and readers seeking information.

Therefore, because I no longer have interest to continuing to engage in senseless bickering and insults and such behaviors, as I demonstrated. I hope those who I have had such engagements will see my efforts. And as a result, we can establish a mutual respect in our words and posts, and thus, we can move on toward respectfully sharing our experiences and knowledge - what ever that maybe.

In all sincerely,

Buck
07-22-2010, 09:37 AM
Philip,

I was referring to Takeda's teaching not his feat or aikido techniques.

David Y

Opps, my bad Dave, sorry about that. Thanks for pointing that out.

I am not sure. I can't give an opinion really. Of what I seen on Youtube, it seems he is talking about principles that he is demonstrating. I do see skill in him. I see principles he is applying. I am not so concern with the uke's reactions. And he is demonstrating and teaching to a group of Aikidoka. You can't control really how a person reacts. Some uke's have bias, or star struck, or just want the sensei to look good for the school or the uke's personal own reasons. It is hard to control that.I liked after the demo, Takeda was demonstrating on a white belt and his skills came through similarly to his demo. Based on that I will assume he would be willing to demonstrate on others, and not just his own students. That is my take.

That is my opinion, and I may sound bias toward those like Takeda over those like Wang. But Wang's approach is different, but am not a 100% sure of that, as that is based on what I read and seen in the links and on Youtube. And I am not out to discredit Wang. Rather understand what he is really doing. Unlike Aikido I don't recognize as many principles going on with Wang. And he is demonstrating a feat, that I don't fully comprehend as well as that of Aikido.

Marc Abrams
07-22-2010, 09:58 AM
Marc, I have never met you, and I am really unclear what issues you may have. You are welcome to PM. But I don't believe the use of this forum is for the direction you are heading. Aikiweb, I feel, is a place to share knowledge for the betterment of those who come here seeking knowledge. I didn't believe that early on, and made an ass of myself behaving disrespectfully. Sadly, I subscribed to that and the disrespecting of the forum, due to misreading this forum. Jun, I believed, worked hard at getting the forum back on track. And I didn't see that or respect that. And that reflected badly on me.

But, I took some time off and re-evaluated my behavior and attitude on this forum. I feel disrespecting others with insults and jabs publicly on a forum is disrupting and disrespectful to the purpose of the forum and readers seeking information.

Therefore, because I no longer have interest to continuing to engage in senseless bickering and insults and such behaviors, as I demonstrated. I hope those who I have had such engagements will see my efforts. And as a result, we can establish a mutual respect in our words and posts, and thus, we can move on toward respectfully sharing our experiences and knowledge - what ever that maybe.

In all sincerely,

Buck:

Believe or not, I am not trying to belittle you. You write about things in a manner that many of us interpret as coming from a "keyboard warrior." These types of people add little to serious discussions because of a true lack of experience and knowledge and are typically posting for attention-seeking purposes. I cannot think of another person on this forum who has steadfastly refused to talk about actual experience, current experience, past, present teachers,...... I am simply asking for some hard, cold facts so that we can honestly evaluated where you are coming from when you post. There should be no shame in stating that one has no real experience or knowledge and is seeking such. There should be no reason why someone should not want to be open and honest with others as to what one's real experiences are. I cannot think of any legitimate reason as to why you try and hide the facts about your martial arts experience, particularly when it is so frequently called into question because of the nature of your posts. You have been and are continuously given the benefit of the doubt by many. What is your obligation to try and set the record straight as to who you are and what you can do and what you represent?

True martial arts begins with integrity in all aspects of ones' live. Standing behind and in front of one's words should be a simple prerequisite. The beauty about martial arts is that one cannot hide behind one's words. That only exists on cyberspace. The integrity of an honest answer from you simply allows us to appropriate evaluation information. There are a good number of us that dedicate our lives towards what we do. We put in countless hours and remarkable costs to do what we do. When we engage in these discussions, we are open about who we are, what we do, what we think..... This allows us to be able to process information efficiently in order to help us along the way.

Stop deflecting legitimate questions and step up to the plate so that we can continue discussions with a genuine understanding as to the person behind the information.

Sincerely,

Marc Abrams

DonMagee
07-22-2010, 01:13 PM
Don,
These are some excellent points. I'm currently looking into starting a cult; and am wondering if you had any other ideas along these lines.
Thanks,
Josh "Hodjie" P.

p.s. good post! .. just kidding around.

Well, you need to force everyone to conform in some small way that won't really let them think about. Say like making them all dress alike.

Next you need to have some kind of authority hierarchy. Some way in which they can seemingly gain power or authority over new comers. Of course this authority should only be able to be handed down by you. You also need to reinforce the system by commenting on how they are getting better at whatever it is you are using as control. Tell them how bad they were when they first got there, and how great they are now. You also need to get them financially involved. It is a lot harder to leave something when you have put time AND money into it. Finally you need a really awesome title :D

I think I just described almost every martial art class I've ever encountered :blush: :D

Patrick Hutchinson
07-22-2010, 01:55 PM
"We also know that Taoism became superstitious which became infused itself becoming a big part of Chinese martial arts."

Can anyone parse this for me?

C. David Henderson
07-22-2010, 02:51 PM
I read it to say, "As Taosim became infused into TCMA, the superstitions that had become part of Taosim became, in turn, a 'big part' Chinese Martial arts."

Whether that's accurate or not, I'll leave to someone with knowledge in these areas to address. But hey, I do own a copy of the I Ching, somewhere, I think ....

Buck
07-22-2010, 03:51 PM
I read it to say, "As Taosim became infused into TCMA, the superstitions that had become part of Taosim became, in turn, a 'big part' Chinese Martial arts."

Whether that's accurate or not, I'll leave to someone with knowledge in these areas to address. But hey, I do own a copy of the I Ching, somewhere, I think ....

Good, point. We shouldn't believe everything we hear or read, or see. I certainly don't advocate it. It is not about being skeptical for me as much as it is a good thing to do hold off on judgement until the research is done and make the decision of validity. Keep an open mind. Even if it isn't valid, there is something to learn, or even a motivation tool.

I had in the past had a view that myth was bad, and now I see it as tied in with mystery. And mystery can be very motivating and have some surprising results. That is Wang is presenting a model. Let's see if no-touch, how ever you define it, is possible. Maybe it isn't. But the journey can have some surprising discoveries and results.

Here are some links just for the heck of it I found on the net. Can't vouch for the credibility but they look pretty good. Maybe you will find better,t here is a start.

http://www.plumflower.com/philosophy_and_martial_art.htm
http://www.daoiststudies.org/dao/content/short-history-daoism-introduction
http://history.cultural-china.com/en/166History5052.html

C. David Henderson
07-22-2010, 03:57 PM
FWIW, I was hoping you would respond to Marc, not to me. Sorry Marc. I really don't see this as about you avoiding "bickering" but "embarrassment." FWIW

Buck
07-22-2010, 04:19 PM
Opps...I quoted Dave instead of Patrick.

Buck
07-22-2010, 04:25 PM
FWIW, I was hoping you would respond to Marc, not to me. Sorry Marc. I really don't see this as about you avoiding "bickering" but "embarrassment." FWIW

Marc's post is really off-topic, and can be handled via a new thread or PM. Dave your welcome to PM me if you like. And sorry about quoting you instead of Patrick. And out of respect for David Yap and this forum, I wish to stay on more topic and out of personal discussions where the thread could be closed. I don't want that to happen to David Yap's thread. :)

Marc Abrams
07-22-2010, 05:20 PM
FWIW, I was hoping you would respond to Marc, not to me. Sorry Marc. I really don't see this as about you avoiding "bickering" but "embarrassment." FWIW

Charles:

How does that song go? " It's the same old story yeah......"

Buck:

Feel free to start a new thread and answer the questions. PM's have been done already without a straight and/or honest answer. The reality is that answering the questions are not off topic but actually on topic. They provide the necessary context for answers to be understood within. The thread would only be closed if people are personally insulting towards one another. People disclosing pertinent information about themselves is entirely within the bounds of this forum and can fit nicely within any thread. For example, a person can talk about studying with this Chinese teacher in "X" particular art and talk about how a word like "jin" applies to that person's understanding of what they do and how they think about something.

Now that I have clearly shown how honest information about your training can help us place your posts in context to what you actually do and know, please feel free to fill in the missing details.

Marc Abrams

Buck
07-22-2010, 05:45 PM
FWIW, I was hoping you would respond to Marc, not to me. Sorry Marc. I really don't see this as about you avoiding "bickering" but "embarrassment." FWIW

FWIW, yes, I am embarrassed :blush: What the sentence should have read was, "We also know that Taoism became superstitious which became a big part of Chinese martial arts."

Thomas Campbell
07-22-2010, 06:04 PM
I have to agree with Buck that queries as to his own specific experience for other posters to be able to place his remarks in some sort of elusive "context" is off-topic to this particular thread. I haven't read any of Buck's statements or remarks on this thread as necessarily relating to or depending upon Buck's individual ability to manifest any particular physical skill or demonstrate aiki. He's commented on Wang's students' credulity, asked some questions about what goes into students' acceptance of a teacher's demonstration, and offered some sources relating to Daoism and Chinese culture.

I might take a different position if Buck was posting about some demonstration of physical skill and critiquing it. But he's not on this thread. It's a general topic, not about whether Buck has a particular skill or training experience.

Mike Sigman
07-22-2010, 06:32 PM
All of this may be getting off-topic from the original post. Henry Wang was a tournament push-hands guy from Taiwan who did pretty well in some of the local Taiwanese tournaments. A number of Taiwanese and HongKongese "masters" have become "names" in North America and in Europe while not ever rising to much in mainland China (even though polite lip-service is paid to many American, Canadian, etc., 'masters' who have been able to establish 'name' status for themselves).

What Wang does with cooperative students is, IMO, not much of an issue. To sum up Taiwanese "push-hands", I've seen someone like Yang Jwing Ming realize how overtly muscular most of the "push hands" is on Taiwan, when viewed in the company of real mainland names, and toss a VHS tape into the trash. I.e., Taiwanese push-hands is not considered to be top-of-the-line in anyone's book, except for Taiwanese loyalists.

Wang, however, is not a complete naif, like most westerners, and does approach theoretical training from the idea of controlling someone's center, and so on. His fairly obvious addition of what I call "muscular jin" doesn't encourage me much beyond saying that. The point is that there are basic principles to these arts and the principles should be firmly and simply understood/stated before (again, IMO) there should be too much attention paid to any one performer. Let's face it folks... these skills are just getting off the ground and we need to quit looking for an Ace jet-pilot in every guy who just got his single-engine pilot's license.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

David Yap
07-22-2010, 10:32 PM
David:

My issue with this is not whether or not this person can project energy. This issue is with the people amplifying and reacting in a non-sensible manner to what they might be experiencing.

Marc Abrams

Marc,

Sorry for the late response. I am totally with you on this issue. I don't how Wang sifu feel but I get totally pissed when a uke falls before I even execute a technique. Pissed that I have not realized that I have acquired this "transparent" power :D

Regards

David Y

Marc Abrams
07-23-2010, 07:26 AM
Marc,

Sorry for the late response. I am totally with you on this issue. I don't how Wang sifu feel but I get totally pissed when a uke falls before I even execute a technique. Pissed that I have not realized that I have acquired this "transparent" power :D

Regards

David Y

David:

I am with you on that brother! It is both sad and encouraging to see that Aikido is not the only art that has trouble balancing between collusive practice (that borders on cult-like behavior) and cooperative practice that push each partner to their limits.

I find that I am constantly reminding and encouraging my students to stop "helping me" look good and actually try and make what I do fail. It is easy to slip into those collusive patterns. Of course when that happens, our "transparent" powers are just marvelous :D !

Marc Abrams

Rabih Shanshiry
07-23-2010, 08:39 AM
I have to agree with Buck that queries as to his own specific experience for other posters to be able to place his remarks in some sort of elusive "context" is off-topic to this particular thread. I haven't read any of Buck's statements or remarks on this thread as necessarily relating to or depending upon Buck's individual ability to manifest any particular physical skill or demonstrate aiki. He's commented on Wang's students' credulity, asked some questions about what goes into students' acceptance of a teacher's demonstration, and offered some sources relating to Daoism and Chinese culture.

I might take a different position if Buck was posting about some demonstration of physical skill and critiquing it. But he's not on this thread. It's a general topic, not about whether Buck has a particular skill or training experience.

+1

Especially in light of a pretty solid mea culpa from him in post #29.