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James - Huang
07-12-2010, 10:09 PM
To get the structure stuff going basically you have to do 2 things: gain strength and awareness at all the joints where failure under pressure is possible, and then gain coordination between the joints. The joints that matter for the structure stuff is the shoulder joint, the thoracic curve, the lumbar curve, and the hip joint. The knee, ankle, elbow, and wrist don't matter in any significant way in terms of conditioning them or gaining a lot of strength, although having a lot of strength there doesn't hurt.

For example:

When getting a horizontal frontal push to the chest along the weak line, there are 2 possible causes of failure: extension at the hip socket joint, and extension at the thoracic curve. To counteract extension at those two points you need simultanous activation of the psoas and intercostals along with enough of an adjustment in posture so you don't fall over. This will let you put out the maximum amount of horizontal force that is humanly possible from this particular position.

Problem is, conscious activation of the intercostals inhibits the psoas and vice versa, while in a standing posture, since the body will tend to fall towards the front if you turn both on at the same time. Therefore you need some artificial visualizations and postures to get things going.

Horse stance:

1) get into middle horse stance
+ reason: untrained, the psoas only begins to enter its field of action at around 30 degrees of flexion. by getting into horse stance you make it easier to get the psoas going. standing around in upright stance, you would need a lot of visualizing to get any activation going in a reasonable amount of time.

2) stretch upwards and downwards at the skull and tailbone, and make sure you're almost completely vertical,
+ reason: if you bend over like you're doing back-squats, this causes gluteal and spinal erector activation since you would have to turn those on in order to make sure your torso won't fall over. Both of those are antagonists to what we're trying to activate here. so those can't turn on.

3) stick your arms out in front and think about reaching forward.
+ reason: if you do that, it turns on your intercostals. if you do it enough times so that you get the isolated feeling of intercostals firing in conjunction with the psoas, then you don't have to reach forward anymore.

4) when subjected to a frontal push, add together the two visualizations in #2 and #3. This results in the visualization of reaching up-and-behind as well as under-and-behind the opponent in a sort of vertical loop. That'll turn on the maximum amount of muscles you can use to resist a horizontal, static, frontal push. Doing this reduces the amount of things you have to think about.

Conditioning the parts needed for horse stance:

1) Leg strength: either do a lot of squats or do a lot of horse stance until you get enough muscle strength in the thighs so that you aren't panting and sweating after 5 seconds and can't focus on visualizing stuff. Fastest way is to carry a bag of rice or small female on your shoulders and walk around in a low stance as much as possible with torso upright. Don't drive your car, walk.

2) Getting aware of the intercostals and giving them a basic level of strength: do a lot of suburi but hit things overhead instead of in front of you. If you hit things directly in front of you, you never know if its the weight of the sword, your triceps, or your intercostals powering the hit. If you do a few hundred reps of suburi but hit things overhead, you have a higher chance of isolating the intercostals.

3) Learning to inhibiting the spinal erectors and glutes at will: strike a heavy bag with two hands simultaneously while in a feet-parallel stance. This ensures you don't use any posterior chain muscles to hit and gets you used to using the weight drop caused by psoas and intercostal activation to deliver forward force.

Reasonable results:

1) You'll be able to take about 20 or 30 pounds of pressure to the sternum in a feet-forward stance without moving or leaning noticeably. It's physically impossible to take more than that amount without having very long feet or a very large stomach. The amount of force handling is not limited by the strength of any muscle in particular but by how thick you are and how fat you are. However, conditioning the psoas and intercostals and learning to coordinate the two at once is essential because usually only one can be used at a time in a standing posture.

2) The important part is not being able to take ever increasing and massive amounts of pressure in a frontal push. The idea is that since your psoas and intercostals are handling the incoming push, you have your entire posterior chain as well as most of your other ab muscles in reserve so you are still able to move around quite well and apply power.

3) With the static, feet-parallel position, you will NOT ever be able to handle a full force charge directed upwards and back towards the sternum. You must move the upper torso in order to do that.

4) You still shouldn't start going around facing your weak line to the opponent in grappling if you get good at this particular manuver. It's still better to have your strong line facing the opponent, and it's still not good to use both sides at the same time. It's just a training tool.

Benjamin Mehner
07-12-2010, 10:54 PM
I've been taking Aikido for about two years now and I've noticed that I lack leg strength. I started taking Iaido last week and it seems like it will help me out with this and many other things as well. I highly recommend it to any Aikidoka.

Michael Varin
07-13-2010, 03:31 AM
Bizarre.

phitruong
07-13-2010, 08:06 AM
wonder how many folks have knee and ankle problem? there is no such thing as tennis elbow, right? wonder why boxers tape their wrists and hands, since they are a bunch of tough folks? hmmm....

if one traces the power path to the ground, which large joint is the last to handle the load and what is the surface area of that joint? isn't Pressure = Force / Surface Area? oh wait, this is aikido, we don't follow physical laws! :)

Erick Mead
07-13-2010, 09:12 AM
wonder how many folks have knee and ankle problem? there is no such thing as tennis elbow, right? wonder why boxers tape their wrists and hands, since they are a bunch of tough folks? hmmm....

if one traces the power path to the ground, which large joint is the last to handle the load and what is the surface area of that joint? isn't Pressure = Force / Surface Area? oh wait, this is aikido, we don't follow physical laws! :)
Ask yourself this: Short of an arm bar or leg lock (which can destroy the tissue of a joint), what causes joints to most easily fail mechanically when used in the "usual" leverage mode ? (Hint -- it is not excess tension; not excess compression, and not usually bending forces (e.g. -- leverage in an arm bar )

Suggestion: If you use the thing that makes joints mechanically fail most easily when levered -- but as the operative mechanism of action, instead of a source of instability requiring compensation, the joint CANNOT fail in that mode of action -- and never experiences any bending or leverage, either.

thisisnotreal
07-13-2010, 10:35 AM
um... err.....Shear?

DH
07-13-2010, 10:56 AM
Eric
How has your knowledge benefited you in doing Aikido to such an extraordinary level that anyone would be interested in following it? People tell me you are nothing out of the norm. So if all your knowledge has resulted in you being nothing but average. ...what exactly is the point? I am not saying that being average is bad, it just seems oddly out of place to persistently try to dialogue with men who's own methods have left them widely known for being extraordinary
It's one of the reasons I rarely engage you. In a comparison of methodology; the end results have already been decided.
Can you offer us any advice that has produced extra-ordinary results in you that have been vetted by a wide range of practioners: yondan to shihan?
As with our new friend Mr. Huang, ...it might help us in determining the value of a process or theory. Time is something most people value and don't want to waste.
Any thoughts? I will once again be in Florida several times this winter...would you care to compare methods in an open room with senior level practioners and teachers that can help you to support your continued attempts here in a more meaningful fashion? It's clear by your efforts here, that you a trying to get some of your ideas " out there" for consideration. Let's see them and feel them and hopefully move the discussion forward.
Sincerely
Dan

Thomas Campbell
07-13-2010, 11:08 AM
To get the structure stuff going basically you have to do 2 things: gain strength and awareness at all the joints where failure under pressure is possible, and then gain coordination between the joints. The joints that matter for the structure stuff is the shoulder joint, the thoracic curve, the lumbar curve, and the hip joint. The knee, ankle, elbow, and wrist don't matter in any significant way in terms of conditioning them or gaining a lot of strength, although having a lot of strength there doesn't hurt.

For example:

When getting a horizontal frontal push to the chest along the weak line, there are 2 possible causes of failure: extension at the hip socket joint, and extension at the thoracic curve. To counteract extension at those two points you need simultanous activation of the psoas and intercostals along with enough of an adjustment in posture so you don't fall over. This will let you put out the maximum amount of horizontal force that is humanly possible from this particular position.

Problem is, conscious activation of the intercostals inhibits the psoas and vice versa, while in a standing posture, since the body will tend to fall towards the front if you turn both on at the same time. Therefore you need some artificial visualizations and postures to get things going.

Horse stance:

1) get into middle horse stance
+ reason: untrained, the psoas only begins to enter its field of action at around 30 degrees of flexion. by getting into horse stance you make it easier to get the psoas going. standing around in upright stance, you would need a lot of visualizing to get any activation going in a reasonable amount of time.

2) stretch upwards and downwards at the skull and tailbone, and make sure you're almost completely vertical,
+ reason: if you bend over like you're doing back-squats, this causes gluteal and spinal erector activation since you would have to turn those on in order to make sure your torso won't fall over. Both of those are antagonists to what we're trying to activate here. so those can't turn on.

3) stick your arms out in front and think about reaching forward.
+ reason: if you do that, it turns on your intercostals. if you do it enough times so that you get the isolated feeling of intercostals firing in conjunction with the psoas, then you don't have to reach forward anymore.

4) when subjected to a frontal push, add together the two visualizations in #2 and #3. This results in the visualization of reaching up-and-behind as well as under-and-behind the opponent in a sort of vertical loop. That'll turn on the maximum amount of muscles you can use to resist a horizontal, static, frontal push. Doing this reduces the amount of things you have to think about.

Conditioning the parts needed for horse stance:

1) Leg strength: either do a lot of squats or do a lot of horse stance until you get enough muscle strength in the thighs so that you aren't panting and sweating after 5 seconds and can't focus on visualizing stuff. Fastest way is to carry a bag of rice or small female on your shoulders and walk around in a low stance as much as possible with torso upright. Don't drive your car, walk.

2) Getting aware of the intercostals and giving them a basic level of strength: do a lot of suburi but hit things overhead instead of in front of you. If you hit things directly in front of you, you never know if its the weight of the sword, your triceps, or your intercostals powering the hit. If you do a few hundred reps of suburi but hit things overhead, you have a higher chance of isolating the intercostals.

3) Learning to inhibiting the spinal erectors and glutes at will: strike a heavy bag with two hands simultaneously while in a feet-parallel stance. This ensures you don't use any posterior chain muscles to hit and gets you used to using the weight drop caused by psoas and intercostal activation to deliver forward force.

Reasonable results:

1) You'll be able to take about 20 or 30 pounds of pressure to the sternum in a feet-forward stance without moving or leaning noticeably. It's physically impossible to take more than that amount without having very long feet or a very large stomach. The amount of force handling is not limited by the strength of any muscle in particular but by how thick you are and how fat you are. However, conditioning the psoas and intercostals and learning to coordinate the two at once is essential because usually only one can be used at a time in a standing posture.

2) The important part is not being able to take ever increasing and massive amounts of pressure in a frontal push. The idea is that since your psoas and intercostals are handling the incoming push, you have your entire posterior chain as well as most of your other ab muscles in reserve so you are still able to move around quite well and apply power.

3) With the static, feet-parallel position, you will NOT ever be able to handle a full force charge directed upwards and back towards the sternum. You must move the upper torso in order to do that.

4) You still shouldn't start going around facing your weak line to the opponent in grappling if you get good at this particular manuver. It's still better to have your strong line facing the opponent, and it's still not good to use both sides at the same time. It's just a training tool.

Wait . . . what is this? A serious post, clearly and cogently presented . . . without parody apparent? :freaky:

I need a cup of coffee.

Thanks, James.

http://www.mashuudojo.com/pics/20040425demo/12.jpg

James - Huang
07-13-2010, 01:52 PM
wonder how many folks have knee and ankle problem? there is no such thing as tennis elbow, right? wonder why boxers tape their wrists and hands, since they are a bunch of tough folks? hmmm....

if one traces the power path to the ground, which large joint is the last to handle the load and what is the surface area of that joint? isn't Pressure = Force / Surface Area? oh wait, this is aikido, we don't follow physical laws! :)

The post is about gaining structure in relation to handling the frontal chest push.

Has nothing to do with feet or ankle and the pressure at the ankle and knee joint is no more than than you standing there with nobody pushing on you. If you stood with both feet on a scale while handling a horizontal push in this way, the scale will not go up an ounce.

phitruong
07-13-2010, 03:39 PM
The post is about gaining structure in relation to handling the frontal chest push.

Has nothing to do with feet or ankle and the pressure at the ankle and knee joint is no more than than you standing there with nobody pushing on you. If you stood with both feet on a scale while handling a horizontal push in this way, the scale will not go up an ounce.

As a Sigman follower you should at least have figured out that much...

i must be floating in space then to only handle the push with my own body and not channel it somewhere else. very stupid of me, thanks. :D

i didn't know i am a Sigman follower. hey, Mike, do i get badges for being a follower? maybe some titles like grand master abator of the hairy palms of death? :D :D

James - Huang
07-13-2010, 04:02 PM
i must be floating in space then to only handle the push with my own body and not channel it somewhere else. very stupid of me, thanks. :D

i didn't know i am a Sigman follower. hey, Mike, do i get badges for being a follower? maybe some titles like grand master abator of the hairy palms of death? :D :D

You ain't floating bud, you're standing on the floor.

Look dude, draw the force diagram yourself instead of drooling at the leg push picture that Mike drew a decade ago which is where you're obviously getting this "power path from the ground" bullshit. The vectors on that diagram aren't even correct. What the hell is a "power path" and why would it go into the ground?

The correct drawing of the vectors on that picture is a straight down vector representing the pushee's weight, a straight up vector of the same magnitude representing the normal force, a horizontal vector coming from the pusher, and the horizontal friction vector obtained from (pushee normal force x static friction coefficient). Representing it as a 45 degree vector "coming from the ground" as some sort of vector sum of the friction force and normal force but without including the weight vector is completely incorrect. If you actually had the correct picture instead of looking at the wrong one for several years you might actually be getting somewhere...

There's no reason to "channel" anything in particular to the ground apart from the ordinary forces of you standing there, and vector diagrams are useless as an instructional guide or a way to communicate what you're doing in any case.

James - Huang
07-13-2010, 04:17 PM
How to move the hip joint correctly to transfer weight from one hip socket to the other:

The best place to initiate lateral weight transfer is by hip flexion at one hip joint and extension at the other. The problem with trying to initiate weight transfer with hip flexion is that if you try to do it from an upright standing posture, you’ll always do it by laterally tilting the lumbar curve, the thoractic curve, or the cervical curve first, giving you enough of a bend that gravity pulls your torso to one side, and then your hip socket flexes as a consequence of actually initiating the movement somewhere else in the torso.

There’s three advantages to initializing weight transfer at the hip instead of at other places:

#1: the hip socket joint has the strongest muscles in the body.

#2: initiating at the hip socket allows for the largest amount of distance that the center of gravity can be moved without moving the feet. Initiating movement by leaning or bending the torso only moves the center of gravity a little bit.

#3: when you transfer weight, only the weight above the initializing spot is transferred. For example, if you lean on someone by nodding forward with your forehead, only (a part of) the weight of your head is transferred, and the weight of your legs is irrelevant. The lower you initiate the weight transfer, the more weight you get to use. The hip is as low as you can get and has a big portion of body weight above it.

Why initiating at the hip is so important is because when you encounter some resistance, whichever part started the movement will try to resist first and the other parts will catch on a bit later. Unfortunately if you initiate movement anywhere else you’ll be unbalanced by the force of your own pushing, since the reaction force of your own push is instant and the hip, which is responsible for your balance, catches on a little bit later and you’d already be off balance. The only way to get around this problem is by initiating with the hip since it itself is responsible for your balance.

Shiko:

1) Get in a middle horse stance, stick out the left arm to the side and place the right hand at chest level.
+ reason: The sticking-out arm inhibits the left (internal) intercostals and activates the left lat. The right hand at the chest does the opposite. This maneuver joins together the same-side obliques and intercostals as one unit in the next step.

2) Pull towards the left side until the right oblique activates due to being stretched. Activate the left psoas and begin tilting to the left side until your right leg is midair. It’s pointless in this exercise to get your leg super high.
+ reason: To be balanced, you need to create an artificial “antagonist” for your left psoas (the normal antagonists are the spinal extensors), which are the obliques and internal intercostals on the right side.

3) While at the apex of the tilt, switch the position of the arms while activating the left psoas to flex the left hip. You will experience a twisting sensation through your entire torso at once, which is the feeling of the intercostals and obliques on each side acting in concert with the psoas on the opposite side. Keep switching the position of the arms and flexing and extending the left hip while remaining in the apex of the tilt until you get tired and can no longer coordinate everything.

4) Get down from the tilt by extending right leg. A loud stomp is optional, and done correctly, the stomp can be performed at any time during the motion. The stomp is not the result of falling back down.

5) Hold small dumbbells in both hands and attach ankle weights to both legs. This does NOT directly increase the resistance of the exercise but does make it harder to balance yourself.

credits: akuzawa, netter, wikipedia

DH
07-13-2010, 04:36 PM
Tom
Was that a picture of James Huang you posted?
Dan

James - Huang
07-13-2010, 04:39 PM
Tom
Was that a picture of James Huang you posted?
Dan

Yea.

One of the pictures of us, at least.




By that way, that "tatami" you see flying off there is actually made of kevlar with a sheet metal core. All of the persons standing behind there are 9-11th dan masters of aikido who have flown to multiple seminars and gained great powers as a result.

Thomas Campbell
07-13-2010, 05:24 PM
All of the persons standing behind there are 9-11th dan masters of aikido who have flown to multiple seminars and gained great powers as a result.

I sensed that the Force is strong in them, young Master Huang.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3122/3198551689_20e31eb789_o.jpg

DH
07-13-2010, 05:51 PM
Yea.
One of the pictures of us, at least..
That explains so much.
Thank you
Dan

HL1978
07-13-2010, 06:21 PM
Where's the origami?

Mike Sigman
07-13-2010, 06:45 PM
The post is about gaining structure in relation to handling the frontal chest push.

Has nothing to do with feet or ankle and the pressure at the ankle and knee joint is no more than than you standing there with nobody pushing on you. If you stood with both feet on a scale while handling a horizontal push in this way, the scale will not go up an ounce.

As a Sigman follower you should at least have figured out that much...It's more complex than that, but I'm enjoying the read from an anonymous source. If you know me, you know that I have limited use for anonymous posts once they get into using other peoples' names. If you can use names, you can use your own.

I can ground a purely horizontal force, but the scale will change. Think about why that is, in terms of physics. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Janet Rosen
07-13-2010, 06:48 PM
Where's the origami?

It was in the game, but it folded.

Mike Sigman
07-13-2010, 06:49 PM
i didn't know i am a Sigman follower. hey, Mike, do i get badges for being a follower? maybe some titles like grand master abator of the hairy palms of death? :D :DNo badges. If you had come to the D.C. workshop, I'd have had to give you a badge because I showed the real stuff at that workshop. As it is, you only know enough to impress sankyu's (or dan equivalents to Aikido sankyu's in other arts). :D

Mike

gregstec
07-13-2010, 06:57 PM
It's more complex than that, but I'm enjoying the read from an anonymous source. If you know me, you know that I have limited use for anonymous posts once they get into using other peoples' names. If you can use names, you can use your own.

I can ground a purely horizontal force, but the scale will change. Think about why that is, in terms of physics. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Gee wiz Mike, now you went and did it - you mentioned physics and now we are going to have Eric jump in and drown us in talk about shears :D

Mike Sigman
07-13-2010, 07:07 PM
Then they're leaning on you. If you made them lean on you, then you had to move a little. They're no longer giving you a purely horizontal force.Nope. Draw a simple vector diagram and you'll see why Nage's weight on the scale must change.

BTW (and this is for Greg S., too), I agree completely with Don Magee's signature line:

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein

If you're reduced to describing how to do things with "visualize that you're....", you don't know it very well.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Oops.... I just noticed that James Huang deleted his post. Too bad. ;)

James - Huang
07-13-2010, 07:09 PM
It's more complex than that, but I'm enjoying the read from an anonymous source. If you know me, you know that I have limited use for anonymous posts once they get into using other peoples' names. If you can use names, you can use your own.

I can ground a purely horizontal force, but the scale will change. Think about why that is, in terms of physics. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

It's not much more complex than the fact that you made a small vertical circular movement with your torso and now they're leaning on you without them knowing it. If the scale went up, they transferred some of their weight onto you.

So technically you grounded what orginally was a horizontal force.

Mike Sigman
07-13-2010, 07:15 PM
It's not much more complex than the fact that you made a small vertical circular movement with your torso and now they're leaning on you without them knowing it. If the scale went up, they transferred some of their weight onto you.

So technically you grounded what orginally was a horizontal force.I make no "small vertical circular movement". I make no movement at all since I use what is known as "intent" to change forces. Since I change my force sourcing using "intent", my intent has to do something to control the incoming purely horizontal force and neutralize it into static equilibrium. That should be enough for anyone to figure it out (although the "how to" probably takes someone showing it). Of course, someone who really knew this stuff should have known that without challenging me to state the obvious, right? Ergo......

Regards,

Mike Sigman

James - Huang
07-13-2010, 07:17 PM
Nope. Draw a simple vector diagram and you'll see why Nage's weight on the scale must change.

BTW (and this is for Greg S., too), I agree completely with Don Magee's signature line:

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein

If you're reduced to describing how to do things with "visualize that you're....", you don't know it very well.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Oops.... I just noticed that James Huang deleted his post. Too bad. ;)

Right here

James - Huang
07-13-2010, 07:21 PM
They either lean on you or don't lean on you.

If the scale went up under your feet, that means the total amount of weight coming down on your feet increased. That means someone's leaning on you, and furthermore if the pusher was standing on a scale, their weight would decrease if they started leaning. There's no way to increase OR decrease the total combined weight, so they must be leaning if you are experiencing an increase in weight.

If they are not leaning at all, then you can only use the friction reaction force.

To describe HOW to do something, you can make a list of the muscles used, and you can tell someone some visualizations to use, and what results to expect if they're doing it right.

How about you make a (correct) free body diagram in static equilibrium diagramming ALL forces acting on the center of mass of the pushee when you use your "intent"? Your "tohei leg push" picture is incorrect because if the resultant vector is really pointing at a 45 degree angle upwards from the pushee, then to maintain static equilibrium the pusher would have to provide an equal and opposite down-and-forward force, which you're denying here.

Mike Sigman
07-13-2010, 07:30 PM
They either lean on you or don't lean on you.

If the scale went up under your feet, that means the total amount of weight coming down on your feet increased. That means someone's leaning on you, and furthermore if the pusher was standing on a scale, their weight would decrease if they started leaning. There's no way to increase the total combined weight, so they must be leaning.

If they are not leaning at all, then you can only use the friction reaction force.Well, trying to be fair, I can see where your hangup is, but I'm not going to tell you the part that you're obviously missing. I take that back... I'll show you personally for free, but for my payment I get to post who you really are, so you'll have to make arrangements to get the information you're so obviously lacking through p.m. using the James Huang identity. Of course, if you don't want to do it, that's fine, too. One of the things that I think is worth watching is how many people won't go after clearly important information. Not that I care except for watching people get older and still not know basic information; it's part of my study of human psychology in the Asian martial arts. ;)

Regards,

Mike

James - Huang
07-13-2010, 07:38 PM
I make no "small vertical circular movement". I make no movement at all since I use what is known as "intent" to change forces. Since I change my force sourcing using "intent", my intent has to do something to control the incoming purely horizontal force and neutralize it into static equilibrium. That should be enough for anyone to figure it out (although the "how to" probably takes someone showing it). Of course, someone who really knew this stuff should have known that without challenging me to state the obvious, right? Ergo......

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Yea, your intent activates muscles. Not fascia, not blood vessels, not skin, not electromagnetic fields, and not a spontaneously generated layer of extra fibrous tissue. There's no conscious motor innervation to those areas.

If you make a motion like the taiji opening movement when someone's pushing on you, then they lean on you. CXW has plenty of demos of that. If nothing in your body changed state upon your intent changing, then we have true magic occuring. The only thing that isn't skeletal muscle that you can consciously adjust is your bladder and a few random other sphincters.

I can also see where your hangup is, which is that you posted a completely incorrect free body diagram and have been passing it around for years as the cornerstone of your little system. I won't go into all the nonsensical fascia stuff which anyone with a small amount of biological background would quickly discount as hocus-pocus, either...

By the way, this IS actually my real name, and I'm half filipino, not full chinese. I cook for a living. Ring any bells?

Mike Sigman
07-13-2010, 07:49 PM
Yea, your intent activates muscles. Not fascia, not blood vessels, not skin, not electromagnetic fields, and not a spontaneously generated layer of extra fibrous tissue. There's no conscious motor innervation to those areas and your wife would be able to tell you that if you asked her. (I'm beginning to get an idea of who you are, so this is probably a silly conversation) I generally agree with you about motor innervation, although there is this:

http://www.somatics.de/FasciaResearchBook.htm

Regardless, your initial comment was about me making a circle, not about me triggering muscles. I agree that muscles are "triggered" and I've never said differently anywhere.

If you make a motion like the taiji opening movement when someone's pushing on you, then they lean on you. CXW has plenty of demos of that. If nothing in your body changed state upon your intent changing, then we have true magic occuring. The only thing that isn't skeletal muscle that you can consciously adjust is your bladder and a few random other sphincters. Doesn't change what I just said, though.
I can also see where your hangup is, which is that you posted a completely incorrect free body diagram and have been passing it around for years as the cornerstone of your little system. I won't go into all the nonsensical fascia stuff which anyone with a small amount of biological background would quickly discount as hocus-pocus, either... No, please... start another post with your analysis of what I've said that is wrong. Be happy to defend it without belittling you with comments about "your little system", etc. I enjoy a good debate.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Tim Fong
07-13-2010, 08:38 PM
I have been contacted by several people asking me if I am posting as James Huang. She or he is not me.

That probably won't allay the suspicion of those who are paranoid narcissists, but to that I can only say "your mental illness is not my problem."

thisisnotreal
07-13-2010, 09:13 PM
hi James - wicked posts. thanks for the thoughts. and the level of detail

For the thread,
some shiny things i found that i can point to

shiko (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-shiko-une-approche-propre-a-l-aunkai-53436917.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-shiko-une-approche-propre-a-l-aunkai-53436917.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DxsW%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official&rurl=translate.google.ca&usg=ALkJrhi2GI4V4zhmmY1sUnvP0it1CP9Anw)
tanren: Intro 1 (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-tanren-introduction-partie-1-47654853.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-shiko-une-approche-propre-a-l-aunkai-53436917.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DxsW%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official&rurl=translate.google.ca&usg=ALkJrhhNxJPcXGh3sGYeb1WBBwA_gN6zpQ)
tanren: intro 2 (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-tanren-introduction-partie-2-47853506.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-shiko-une-approche-propre-a-l-aunkai-53436917.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DxsW%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official&rurl=translate.google.ca&usg=ALkJrhjdn-ev7-MSlDEz5eUbqvSs2lmQqQ)
tanren: part 1 (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-tanren-45235028-comments.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-shiko-une-approche-propre-a-l-aunkai-53436917.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DxsW%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official&rurl=translate.google.ca&usg=ALkJrhhTlSpQXZlESnEMG1ynhez_5tD91Q#comment64841540)
tanren: part 2 (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-tanren-partie-2-45236161.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-shiko-une-approche-propre-a-l-aunkai-53436917.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DxsW%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official&rurl=translate.google.ca&usg=ALkJrhhPvxnUj2cMbNULy_-P8p32MJ9Wfg)
tanren: part 3 (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-tanren-partie-3-45254662.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-shiko-une-approche-propre-a-l-aunkai-53436917.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DxsW%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official&rurl=translate.google.ca&usg=ALkJrhhOk1DpqtvU9kYnI2RFnDL-t4ckRg)
tanren: part 4 (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-tanren-partie-4-45485234.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-shiko-une-approche-propre-a-l-aunkai-53436917.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DxsW%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official&rurl=translate.google.ca&usg=ALkJrhgYn2o3w3aOo9BYriBSARQ_RUz0Xw)
tanren: part 5 (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-tanren-partie-5-45569864-comments.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-shiko-une-approche-propre-a-l-aunkai-53436917.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DxsW%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official&rurl=translate.google.ca&usg=ALkJrhgunDXryenOdFUnFAshitRa3j9dXQ#comment64828702)

due and thanks to a very interesting post over on e-budo here< (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43260&page=3), about some exercises to get the structure going. I don't speak japanese; and french is lousy, .. so i don't know how helpful this is...anyhoo...using google translate. (Thanks CC!)

Thomas Campbell
07-13-2010, 09:15 PM
I have been contacted by several people asking me if I am posting as James Huang. She or he is not me.



James will be quite relieved to find out that you are not he/she, Tim. :p

And just for the record . . . no one has contacted me asking if I am posting as James Huang. I feel . . . left out.

gregstec
07-13-2010, 09:40 PM
Nope. Draw a simple vector diagram and you'll see why Nage's weight on the scale must change.

BTW (and this is for Greg S., too), I agree completely with Don Magee's signature line:

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein

If you're reduced to describing how to do things with "visualize that you're....", you don't know it very well.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Oops.... I just noticed that James Huang deleted his post. Too bad. ;)

I take an opportunity to inject a little neutral humor in the thread and you see that as an opportunity to take a cheap shot at me and resurrect a dead issue; so be it. Negativity breeds negativity, and karma will prevail - you are old enough to know that what goes around comes around and some day there will be a price to pay for those cheap shots. I truly feel sorry for you since I do believe you have skill in aiki but you are tainted with all this negativity and that just does not lend itself to an harmonious environment for a positive and constructive exchange of knowledge.

I also believe that you will come back with what you consider a witty counter attack to my post - don't bother since my post is not an attack on you but just a statement of my views - a real man would just accept it for what it is and let it go; which I intend to do from this point forward.

Mike Sigman
07-13-2010, 10:26 PM
I take an opportunity to inject a little neutral humor in the thread and you see that as an opportunity to take a cheap shot at me and resurrect a dead issue;

Not a bit. It was a very clinical comment I made. If you have something to contribute other than "this is the way we did it with so-and-so" blow me out of the water with some facts and physics. That's what I mean. In the 90's if someone came onto the Neijia List and had a better way, the first thing we asked was for facts, not opinions. Take it as a compliment and drive the stake into my heart. ;) Same choice I gave "James Huang" who has now brought both me and my wife into the discussion.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

DH
07-13-2010, 11:17 PM
James will be quite relieved to find out that you are not he/she, Tim. :p
.
I had originally figured California or Colorado for most likely candidates...
The cutting "style" in the picture was unmistakable, so I looked him up.
Shinkendo site
http://www.shinkendo.com/honbu.html
James is listed as a teacher.
I am sure that people who have followed various forums and personalities will find the Shinkendo connection no surprise.
Good luck in your training James
Dan

James - Huang
07-14-2010, 12:11 AM
I had originally figured California or Colorado for most likely candidates...
The cutting "style" in the picture was unmistakable, so I looked him up.
Shinkendo site
http://www.shinkendo.com/honbu.html
James is listed as a teacher.
I am sure that people who have followed various forums and personalities will find the Shinkendo connection no surprise.
Good luck in your training James
Dan

Does that guy look half-filipino to you Dan? That's not me. He's way too ugly.

James - Huang
07-14-2010, 12:12 AM
Hi Josh,

Those links are quite good and point to the need for a large variety of exercises, not just pure "internal movement" based ones, in order to get strong. It's a huge mistake to think that once you have "internal movement skill" that all your physical activity needs are magically taken care of. It's just like how the spirituality folks think that once they reach "enlightenment" all of their problems will disappear. They won't.

Here's a short segment on power-lifting and some techniques needed to counteract their negative effects on internal movement skill. If anything, if you power lift correctly you'll get quite strong and beat most people who don't do this even if you don't get any internal movements.

Deadlift

Deadlift strengthens spinal extensors, glutes, hamstrings, and latissimus with peripheral benefits to the abs and a large amount of other muscles. I won't go into biomechanical detail since these are so well studied. These are the biggest muscles in your body and regardless of what martial art you do and how un-similar these are to the internal movement method, if you want a large amount of brute strength, healthy bones, and a strong grip it's a good idea to do these. The "sumo" variant (legs wider apart) is described below, since it's a little safer for the lower back.

Step 1: Get a barbell and apply 45 lbs plates to either side (At first. Use more weight later.) Put it on the floor.

Step 2: Put your feet 2x shoulder width apart and spread the feet out 60 -- 90 degrees relative to each other. Grip the bar with an overhand grip at shoulder width.

Step 3: To grab the bar: bend at the hip socket, squat down at the knees, look up and forward throughout the movement, make sure your spine is flat or a little lordotic, and make sure the scapulas are pulled back.

Step 4: clench your anus and inhale so pressure builds in the lower abdomen. Flex the abdominal muscles in order to contain the pressure. Maintain all of the conditions in step 3 and pull the bar up to hip level very quickly by driving the heels into the floor, exhale, and thrusting the hips forward. Knees should not go more than an inch or so past the toes if at all.

Step 5: Inhale a new lungful of air and lower the bar very slowly while maintaining all of the conditions in step 3 and exhaling uniformly while lowering the bar. Maintaining all of the requirements is extremely important to avoid injury and to get the most out of the exercise.

For grappling purposes you should do a weight which is around 60% of your one-rep max for four to five sets of eight to ten reps, with a couple minutes of rest in between. Always eat and drink water after, not before, you lift weights. Prior to lifting weights, it's a good idea to run or walk and swing your arms and legs around a bit and elevate the heart rate enough to induce a little bit of sweating. Right after you lift weights, don't stretch or go sit down. Instead, begin doing calisthenics such as finger pushups or bodyweight squats mixed in with shiko and horse stance. This will enhance circulation to all the muscles you just used and will notify your brain as to which parts utilized in the shiko movement were strengthened by doing the lifts. If you want to make the lifts a little harder, use 35 lb plates instead of 45 lb plates as the biggest plate in the stack in order to lower the weight towards the ground and increase the amount of work performed per rep.

After working out, drink 2% fat chocolate milk. It contains the most optimized combination of water, carbohydrate and protein for recovery, and is equal or better than most of the synthetic formulas and is cheap.

Reasonable standards for amount of weight lifted can be found here: http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/DeadliftStandards.html You should expect to rapidly gain strength for about two months and then make gains much more slowly after that. It's a good idea to train up to at least that point since you'll get much stronger without a size increase, since most of the strength increase up to that point is due to increased innervation and not hypertrophy. After that it'll be mostly hypertrophy, and you'll have to eat a lot of extra food as well as keep lifting in order to maintain that.

There are two main negative effects of the deadlift on your ability to do the "internal" movements.

#1 is that your abs and posterior chain will get used to firing all at once, and this pattern will be very strongly reinforced due to the intensity of deadlifts. Since your internal movements are based on the ability to use contralateral sides of the large torso muscles independently as described in the shiko post, this is bad. You'll also get sore from lifting and this will make it hard to identify the right things to activate.

+ the remedy: between sets and after the workout, after you're completely tired out, now do your internal movement exercises and lots of bodyweight calisthenics.

#2 is that your trapezius in particular is strongly activated during the deadlift and the increased tonus will stay around and destabilize the shoulders unless you do something about it.

+ the remedy: pushups, with the spine completely straight.

James - Huang
07-14-2010, 12:25 AM
Not a bit. It was a very clinical comment I made. If you have something to contribute other than "this is the way we did it with so-and-so" blow me out of the water with some facts and physics. That's what I mean. In the 90's if someone came onto the Neijia List and had a better way, the first thing we asked was for facts, not opinions. Take it as a compliment and drive the stake into my heart. ;) Same choice I gave "James Huang" who has now brought both me and my wife into the discussion.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Hey man, I've posted the free body diagram. It's on the first page. Feel free to explain why that picture is less accurate than your tohei-leg-push one.

Facts and physics are fine but it doesn't seem like you're interested in that with responses like "I know whats wrong with your diagram but I'm not going to tell you". Also unhelpful is your assertion that visualizations are unhelpful as how-tos, and in the next breath you start talking about "intent". I seem to recall the condensing-breath exercise you posted a long time back also involved visualization of air going in and out of the skin. So was that meant as a how-to or not?

You also have not explained why one would want to waste time doing the condensing breath exercise in terms of what benefits one can expect in terms of increasing some physical or performance attribute, and in what kind of time scales, the mechanism of the exercise, or what is being conditioned. Without these parts of the explanation, it's safe to say that they're nearly worthless in terms of providing actionable advice to others.

If you want another to see another free body diagram that involves torque about the feet due to the push, we can do that too. However, it still does not explain your assertion that a pusher can increase the weight borne by the pushee's feet without some degree of leaning.

Flintstone
07-14-2010, 02:24 AM
Right here

Would love to see the torques and shears diagrams too. This drawing is also not very accurate in terms of physics.

jss
07-14-2010, 02:42 AM
If they are not leaning at all, then you can only use the friction reaction force.
If that's true then the best analogy of me resisting a horizontal push in the way you described, would be a rock of exactly my size and weight, right?

Flintstone
07-14-2010, 02:53 AM
If that's true then the best analogy of me resisting a horizontal push in the way you described, would be a rock of exactly my size and weight, right?
No. Your body has way too many more degrees of freedom than the average rock.

James - Huang
07-14-2010, 03:07 AM
Would love to see the torques and shears diagrams too. This drawing is also not very accurate in terms of physics.

What's not accurate? Yes, there's no torques on that picture, or the shear force between the front and back sides (not that the shear force is signifcant at all for this diagram). I didn't specifiy the height at which the force was applied, so there's no way I could put in a torque.

There's a torque about the feet, which can be resisted by having a large stomach. On a normally proportioned person, the torque factor is more significant than the friction factor.

And yes, resisting it in the way that is described originally IS like a rock. If you didn't resist in that way it would be even easier to push over than a rock, since the top would bend first in a human. However, it's possible to stand against what looks like much larger forces by doing stuff with your torso so the other guy isn't actually pushing you. In any case, the goal of that exercise is not to resist a large horizontal force, it's to learn to coordinate a couple of different muscles that usually don't turn on simultaneously while standing.

Look here, if you go around neutralizing joint locks or chest pushes against big, heavy, strong people, it is NOT because your tissue is transmitting all that force because an equal and opposite vector matches the incoming force, it's because the force never got exerted on you in the first place. You think Sagawa's tissues were so incredibly conditioned as a 90 year old that he was actually transmitting all that force through his body when he threw people or redirected their force? Not quite, since like you observed, a rock is more conditioned than Sagawa is, and rocks aren't known for being able to throw people or be able to redirect anything.

That's the whole point of why the tohei leg push picture and the vector stuff is completely irrelevant to how to do the stuff.

jss
07-14-2010, 04:05 AM
However, it's possible to stand against what looks like much larger forces by doing stuff with your torso so the other guy isn't actually pushing you.
Care to elaborate?

Look here, if you go around neutralizing joint locks or chest pushes against big, heavy, strong people, it is NOT because your tissue is transmitting all that force because an equal and opposite vector matches the incoming force, it's because the force never got exerted on you in the first place.
<snip>
That's the whole point of why the tohei leg push picture and the vector stuff is completely irrelevant to how to do the stuff.
I disgaree. You need to be able to do the Tohei leg push-thingy, then you make a slight change to it et voilą it looks like a strong push, to the pusher it feels like a strong push, but in fact, it isn't.

Flintstone
07-14-2010, 05:38 AM
What's not accurate? Yes, there's no torques on that picture, or the shear force between the front and back sides (not that the shear force is signifcant at all for this diagram). I didn't specifiy the height at which the force was applied, so there's no way I could put in a torque.
I mean you were always referring to a horizontal chest push, so the push force would not be applied to the center of mass. Also the friction force would be applied to the lower part of the soles of the feet, not to the CM. And thus torques begin to appear.

Please I'm very interested in your elaboration of these diagrams.

Thanks.

DH
07-14-2010, 08:14 AM
Does that guy look half-filipino to you Dan? That's not me. He's way too ugly.
Well then pray tell...who do you train with? What have you trained? Where are you located

You came in taking a bite out of me (admittedly with humor) then went on to state that you agreed with me and can do what I do, then went on to describe training methods, the likes of which I do NOT do. I have to admit I have heard all of this before. Would you like to meet and test those theories of your's out and then talk shop after?
Dan

Mike Sigman
07-14-2010, 08:30 AM
Facts and physics are fine but it doesn't seem like you're interested in that with responses like "I know whats wrong with your diagram but I'm not going to tell you". Also unhelpful is your assertion that visualizations are unhelpful as how-tos, and in the next breath you start talking about "intent". I seem to recall the condensing-breath exercise you posted a long time back also involved visualization of air going in and out of the skin. So was that meant as a how-to or not? I already told you how to do the trick by changing force vectors without moving. If you have that skill, what I said was very obvious and basic. If you don't have that skill you will need to be shown how to do it; I made you an offer. The visualization for condensing breathing is a visualization which might help some people and might not help others; it is not as precise as a description of the how and why it is done.
You also have not explained why one would want to waste time doing the condensing breath exercise in terms of what benefits one can expect in terms of increasing some physical or performance attribute, and in what kind of time scales, the mechanism of the exercise, or what is being conditioned. Without these parts of the explanation, it's safe to say that they're nearly worthless in terms of providing actionable advice to others. Well, I don't remember the precise post involved, but if it was the one where I gave that how-to as a stated beginner training step, I mentioned the health aspect of it, which is important. It's also a great basic training exercise because the benefits can be used martially, after they have been trained enough. However, point me to the post and I'll look at it... I doubt that I would say how to do something like that without mentioning some benefit to it.

If you want another to see another free body diagram that involves torque about the feet due to the push, we can do that too. However, it still does not explain your assertion that a pusher can increase the weight borne by the pushee's feet without some degree of leaning. I said "intent". Mental manipulation of forces. Of course, if you're as advanced as you purport to be, I assumed that such a basic answer would be obvious to you. I know that a number of people on this forum can do this thing (they have shown me, so this isn't a surmise) and to them my answer was probably a correct and basic answer to your question.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
07-14-2010, 08:53 AM
You came in taking a bite out of me (admittedly with humor) then went on to state that you agreed with me and can do what I do, then went on to describe training methods, the likes of which I do NOT do.Of course I haven't been paying the strictest attention to each of his posts, but James Huang was posting what I (and most others) assumed was some sort of joke and perhaps a veiled reference to terms Dan *may* have used in some context (I haven't paid that much attention, so I may be wrong). The problem is that Huang is now indicating that he is not making a joke but is serious in his analyses, so it's pretty confusing how to take his statements in toto. If he's serious, I don't seem to have much of a common dialogue/understanding with what he's talking about, so I'm going to bail on this also.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

gregstec
07-14-2010, 12:17 PM
Does that guy look half-filipino to you Dan? That's not me. He's way too ugly.

Maybe there are more pics to choose from at the below link - so, which one of you do you like best? :)

http://www.mashuudojo.com/photos.htm

Erick Mead
07-14-2010, 12:49 PM
Gee wiz Mike, now you went and did it - you mentioned physics and now we are going to have Eric jump in and drown us in talk about SHEARS :D

http://tech2.in.com/media/images/uploads/2006/05/rws.jpg

And FWIW -- I no pinoy (though I do love lumpia)...

C. David Henderson
07-14-2010, 12:56 PM
Hint,

The picture already posted has an informative caption.

jss
07-14-2010, 03:29 PM
Hint,
The picture already posted has an informative caption.
"Honbu Student James Huang slices one up" in the section "April 25, 2004 Demonstration at The Japanese Garden in Sherman Oaks, CA"?

C. David Henderson
07-14-2010, 03:43 PM
If we take James at his word, I'd say so. No reason to doubt him, myself.

Thomas Campbell
07-15-2010, 01:37 PM
If we take James at his word, I'd say so. No reason to doubt him, myself.

:D

mickeygelum
07-15-2010, 08:49 PM
How has your knowledge benefited you in doing Aikido to such an extraordinary level that anyone would be interested in following it? People tell me you are nothing out of the norm. So if all your knowledge has resulted in you being nothing but average. ...what exactly is the point? I am not saying that being average is bad, it just seems oddly out of place to persistently try to dialogue with men who's own methods have left them widely known for being extraordinary
It's one of the reasons I rarely engage you. In a comparison of methodology; the end results have already been decided.
Can you offer us any advice that has produced extra-ordinary results in you that have been vetted by a wide range of practioners: yondan to shihan?


Dan,

This is EXACTLY what is said about you, so what gives?

You ask for credentials from the man, but when the same question is put to you, you do not respond.

You are more than welcome to come to our dojo, bring whoever to witness the training event, and we will document the experience.
We will pay for your lodging and meals.

Mark Murray is a student of yours, and he knows our methodolgy very well, so any questions ask your student for the particulars.

We have multiple disciplines, Kenpo, Shodokan and Albo Kali Silat. We require a waiver prior to training, we will eagerly be awaiting your response.

Train well,

Mickey

David Orange
07-15-2010, 11:03 PM
This is EXACTLY what is said about you, so what gives?

Waaaahhhh????

Who says that about Dan?

Surely no one who's laid hands on him.

I can tell you, I've met a lot of aikido guys and I've felt very few anywhere near his level of power. And he's given me his credentials.

I doubt there are many aikidoka in America who wouldn't benefit by a few hours training with Dan.

Best to you.

David

mickeygelum
07-15-2010, 11:13 PM
Thanks for your input, Dave...:rolleyes:

DH
07-16-2010, 12:55 AM
Dan,

This is EXACTLY what is said about you, so what gives?

You ask for credentials from the man, but when the same question is put to you, you do not respond.

You are more than welcome to come to our dojo, bring whoever to witness the training event, and we will document the experience.
We will pay for your lodging and meals.

Mark Murray is a student of yours, and he knows our methodolgy very well, so any questions ask your student for the particulars.

We have multiple disciplines, Kenpo, Shodokan and Albo Kali Silat. We require a waiver prior to training, we will eagerly be awaiting your response.

Train well,

Mickey
Mr. Gelum
1. I did not ask for the mans credentials-I could care less.

2. I asked him about his methods and whether they have been vetted by people outside of his own dojo or anywhere else where they might be considered unusual. Not the least of which would be in a non-cooperative environment.
3. Mine have been many times over.

4. I have offered to go see the man on his own turf and buy him dinner in the past. I thought this time he might like to compare notes.

As far as vetting of methods; I was asked to put up or shut up several times...so I did...many times now. As a result, I am actively teaching shihan, and both junior and senior teachers in various arts as well as MMA guys who seem to have found value in my methods for their personal pursuits. This was the source of my asking Eric for some sign of support for his. Since we are both discussing methods out of the norm it seems a reasonable request.

As for your offer....I have a full schedule as it is. What possible motive would I have to come see you? I certainly don't need to prove anything anymore and I am very sceptical that there is anything you have that I care about. Thank you for your offer though.

Dan

Michael Varin
07-16-2010, 02:31 AM
Just for the record. . .

To James Huang:
Well then pray tell...who do you train with? What have you trained? Where are you located

Flintstone
07-16-2010, 07:10 AM
I believe the person being discussed is Erick Mead.

Mickey,
For the record, while I hold my Kali instructor in very high regards, he is well below Dan's level and abilities. I have tried multiple times to arrange visits as I thought he and you would love the experience and training and atmosphere.

Mark
So when are you guys coming to Spain for some serious holidays?;)

MM
07-16-2010, 09:12 AM
Just for the record. . .

To James Huang:

Guess there was some confusion regarding the conversation.

Mickey's post #54 was a quote by Dan but in it, Dan was replying to Erick Mead, NOT James Huang. See:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=261116&postcount=7

Dan replied to Mickey on post #57.

Then, Michael Varin tried to show that Dan's reply of "I did not ask for the mans credentials" was wrong by pasting a different post from Dan that was directed to James Huang. This is the confusion. James Huang was not part of this section of conversation.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

Mark

thisisnotreal
07-16-2010, 01:47 PM
i hereby nominate this thread for "Strangest Thread of the Year"

mathewjgano
07-16-2010, 05:32 PM
i hereby nominate this thread for "Strangest Thread of the Year"

The year's not over yet!;)
I'd nominate it as one of the more interesting threads, that's for sure!

Erick Mead
07-16-2010, 07:49 PM
Mickey's post #54 was a quote by Dan but in it, Dan was replying to Erick Mead, NOT James Huang. See:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=261116&postcount=7
Dan replied to Mickey on post #57.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

MarkNo. But since you asked:

How has your knowledge benefited you in doing Aikido to such an extraordinary level that anyone would be interested in following it? Your first mistake is presuming that I am interested in any "following" or having whatever ability I do have made the subject of the universal acclaim that some people seem obviously to hunger for. There is a word for this assumption of my motivation in such a response: Projection. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection)
People tell me you are nothing out of the norm. If you knew my "people" you would name names -- and we have done this presumptive argument of yours to death -- I am not in the business of showmanship, but understanding things for the sake of understanding, and saying what I see when I see it.

I have nothing to sell. Not even my ego.

It's one of the reasons I rarely engage you. In a comparison of methodology; the end results have already been decided. Mazeltov. I missed any methodology you have detailed. You are very, very clear about your ability to impress people with your ability to do damage to them.

I don't need aiki to do that -- in fact I do not need anything but a pen, in my line of work, to do people a great deal of damage. Bun bu itchi. Thankfully, however, that is a responsibility that I take care to exercise in a professional manner, which requires sometimes misperceived measures to avoid the necessity, rather than merely seeking out opportunities to display my ability to do it simply because I can.

(TEST: If my psychological observation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection) above is correct, those operating in that mode have read this last as a implied boast of my physical ability in the topic at hand -- rather than the critical moral comparison of approaches that it actually is).

I will once again be in Florida several times this winter...would you care to compare methods in an open room with senior level practioners and teachers that can help you to support your continued attempts here in a more meaningful fashion?
Sincerely
Dan

This is a BIG state. Apart from that, anyone who cares can PM to ask me the reasons I was given from those I trust far more -- and have trained with -- to politely decline your kind, ... kind invitation. I train with people I trust. I do not trust you and I have been given reasons sufficient for me.

You have two levels of reputation -- whether you know it or not - one that Mark M.and David O. have bought into and demonstrate here -- and another one that is circulated in other channels, and confirmed, unfortunately by your manner and debate tactics here.
FWIW, I have no such basis to make the same statement as to , Mike S. (or Ark or any of his adherents) despite the fact that we also tend to talk past one another far too much. Suffice it to say that the difference is an indication of a sharply "selective" expression of your good will in "training." As for my confirmation -- as a man argues, so does he fight -- in my book. And ad hominem is not clean argument.

By all means, let me know when and where and I may come watch if it is not too far and my schedule permits. Who knows ? Maybe your charm in person will refute the reports given to me ad overcome your perceived manner here. I would love to see your demonstration of aiki-age from holding the back of your knee -- very clever -- so post a video of that and you will go far in projecting some good will toward those in my circles.

But you already know who they are, I suppose ?

DH
07-16-2010, 09:21 PM
Eric
Thank you for a considered reply. It is unfortunate that you decided to resort once again to comments about my personality and now my credibility. Is that something you need to do Eric? A direction you need to go in to discuss a subject?

Your first mistake is presuming that I am interested in any "following" or having whatever ability I do have made the subject of the universal acclaim that some people seem obviously to hunger for. There is a word for this assumption of my motivation in such a response,
Other than your own interjections and defense, where do personalities and egos and much else come into play here, Eric?. In fact, I question whether that is a dodge. I was talking about a recognition of your skills. Were they exceptional; it would be unaviodably recognized wherever you went. If you have the skills that equal the men you are trying to converse with it, you would stand out and be known and you simply could not avoid it. These are shihan level skill and inescapable. Noticed at a touch. In fact you could not even function in any setting without being outed or known.
Simple queston really, no need to make a fuss.

If you knew my "people" you would name names -- and we have done this presumptive argument of yours to death --
I know lots of people, I prefer NOT to name names.

I missed any methodology you have detailed. You are very, very clear about your ability to impress people with your ability to do damage to them.
Damage? Really? How is that. I have gone to great pains to decribe nuetralizing peoples efforts. Example: in the yonkyo thread. I think you are trying to stretch a point to make some sort of case here.

Snip your self agrandized writing accumen and how it equals to your martial skills.:rolleyes:

This is a BIG state. Apart from that, anyone who cares can PM to ask me the reasons I was given from those I trust far more -- and have trained with -- to politely decline your kind, ... kind invitation. I train with people I trust. I do not trust you and I have been given reasons sufficient for me.
Really. Since you chastised me for not namig names how does this play out? Further you are insinuating I am not to be trusted. You seem to continue to make up your own standards of personal attacks. Would you like to attack my wife and son next? I am frequently shocked at what levels you are permitted to go to here.

By all means, let me know when and where and I may come watch if it is not too far and my schedule permits. Who knows ? Maybe your charm in person will refute the reports given to me.
This is a personal attack Eric. You are basically stating that you have been told by people who attended seminars that I am not safe. That is ad hominem and damaging to my name. State the people or places or retract it. I call B.S.! Either you or those talking to you are lying. plain and simple.

I would love to see your demonstration of aiki-age from holding the back of your knee -- very clever -- so post a video of that and you will go far in projecting some good will toward those in my circles.
Many have seen it, felt it and could be added to your list of "People you have heard from." I wonder.....why aren't they?
But Eric, Let me askyou; you decry the needfor your perosnal use, and motivations of having to "prove something" then proceed to ask me for it? All while stating- I- debate unfairly. How odd and convenient.

Lets review
1. I and others discuss some principles that are quite obviously outside the norm in Aikido. By choice you interject into the discussions with theories that none of us, or those who train with us recognise as being relevant to developing those skills.
You prevail none the less.

2. The training methods of the people you have mentioned; ark Mike and myself, have benefited people across the board and they (now numbering several hundred people) have stated so here on aikiweb. Your own methods have benefited no living human being I know. I continue to mention it out of concern and caring for those that might be led astray. It's just not fair for you to continually interject what is apparently misleading information to an unknowing public.
Several of us have offered to vet you or have you vetted so we can move on and talk more positively in a friendly non-confrontational manner. You know...the same standard Aikiweb held me to years ago. but you just will not particpate in that venue, while continually butting in to the one on the net. It seems very plain. I think it's time to step up Eric.

Dan

Janet Rosen
07-16-2010, 10:02 PM
(sigh) criminy guys... how many ad hominem dead horses can we beat in one thread?

Erick Mead
07-17-2010, 07:21 AM
By all means, let me know when and where and I may come watch if it is not too far and my schedule permits. Who knows ? Maybe your charm in person will refute the reports given to me.
This is a personal attack Eric. No. It is the explanation you asked for as to why I am concerned about you, confirmed by your manner of response, demonstrated, yet again. You may not like the reputation that I have been given about you, but reputation is a curious thing. One cannot attack it -- one can only repair it. As you see, I am willing to judge for myself, but your manner here toward me means that I will, if ever, do so on my terms, not yours.

Several of us have offered to vet you or have you vetted...
DanI am not a farm animal, this is not a sumo stable, and having answered your question, I will agree with Janet and let dead horses lie in peace.

DH
07-17-2010, 08:26 AM
I question your methods and theories and your ability to use them and who might speak for them...you attack my character,.

The standard has been set here for several of us who were willing to go out on a limb and challenge the status quo about movement, methods and aiki. Hundreds demanded seminars to back up what was being said.
Personally, I have done about a dozen of them..
You have no provable success rate of unusual skill..
You have nothing left ...but to try and tear down mine.
You were asked to step up in several venues that I had nothing to do with...you declined.
I think that's all that needs be said..
Dam

Erick Mead
07-17-2010, 09:34 AM
I question your methods and theories and your ability to use them and who might speak for them...you attack my character, I speak for myself and have no need for any one else to speak for me. I made a mechanical observation and suggestion (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=261107&postcount=5) not directed to anyone. You did not undertake to rebut or qualify my mechanical observation. Iinstead, you decided to introduce the personal note toward me. (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=261116&postcount=7) Then you demanded, again, that I submit to your judgment and demanded why I had not submitted to you before now.

Since you asked, I explained my reasons -- because your reputation, from those who have volunteered it to me, is not all that you tell us that it is. Nor yet is it what those who already agree with you report. I don't doubt them -- I just note how you deal with disagreement here which only confirms the reputation reported. Maybe that reputation volunteered to me is wrong and undeserved -- but you are doing nothing to correct it here.

Anyone reading this can judge for themselves.

I really don't care.

Lorel Latorilla
07-17-2010, 01:07 PM
I don't mind to butt in, but Erick, your mechanical statements and wizardry in physics bore the hell out of me and don't help me one bit in my training. May because I'm a 文系 type of guy.

I think Dan's question to you is pretty valid and simple: does it help people?

If not, why do you bother wasting time writing your equations and scientific terms? Why do you fill up threads with your scientific theories (especially if you don't care to have a following?)? Why do you write things that can potentially mislead people (personally I don't think you can mislead them, I think you speak your own language when it comes to describing the phenomena of aiki) into the path of stiffness, wrong movement, etc.?

I'm curious now.

David Orange
07-17-2010, 02:51 PM
I think Dan's question to you is pretty valid and simple: does it help people?

If not, why do you bother wasting time writing your equations and scientific terms? Why do you fill up threads with your scientific theories (especially if you don't care to have a following?)?

Really, it reminds me of a guy who's never been in the military writing on an Army forum, telling combat vets how to handle the problems in Iraq.

Or a guy who's not a doctor giving surgeons advice on placing arterial stents...

If you can't do it yourself, why confuse the messages from people who can?

If I post anything along these lines, it's pretty much concrete and I usually phrase it as a question for feedback. I finally took everyone off my "ignore" list, but I frequently skip posts from people whose previous contributions have been low on meaningful content.

Best to you and the Aunkai folks.

David

David Orange
07-17-2010, 02:56 PM
Is this picture a joke?

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1511&fromforums

Looks posed, but....

Is that Ron Ragusa?

Best wishes.

David

Erick Mead
07-17-2010, 06:10 PM
I don't mind to butt in, but Erick, your mechanical statements and wizardry in physics bore the hell out of me and don't help me one bit in my training. May because I'm a 文系 type of guy. So was I, I wrote my major thesis on Oyomei (Wang Yang-ming). But I was also an NROTC middie destined to fly and so I had a heavy physics and math minor -- better physics than math.

I think Dan's question to you is pretty valid and simple: does it help people? I don't think that was his question .. but yours is fair -- and yes, as I apply it, it does help people. I am unaware of any measure of "X helps better than Y" but it helps without question, because it refines my observations and corrections.

I don't know how to refine my observations except by working on slicing the language I use to note them finer and more closely tied to objective categories -- which is the only point of my writing here --- practice in doing just that with the concepts that I use to observe and correct -- myself as well as others.

Why do you write things that can potentially mislead people (personally I don't think you can mislead them, I think you speak your own language when it comes to describing the phenomena of aiki) into the path of stiffness, wrong movement, etc.? I think you are largely right that dealing with it this way is less accessible in one way -- mechanics not is not as familiar as it should be. But it is more accessible in another way that traditional Eastern concepts are not -- anyone can check my concepts because I did not invent them. I just find that many aspects of them do apply to what I experience and observe, and I derive the application of them from those observations.

In my experience, almost anyone will default to "muscling" and stiffness when uncertain (for whatever reasons), unless they have learned to trust the body's own abilities to move without their "preditctive" intervention seeking some set end result . Call it "scared-baby-grip n' grab syndrome" My corrections and observations given on this basis seem to work pretty well for folks here who find themselves struggle to be effective without "muscling" typically when they find themselves second-guessing something unexpected or uncertain in dealing with a partner's energy.

When I point out a couple of things that I see, they seem to move and report moving their partners more effectively, with less care about the unexpected interaction, with greater ease, less tension, more coordinated and less stiff, against committed energy. I would say empirically that they find it helpful. I would not do it otherwise -- what good would it be?

One reason it may help is that by explaining the mechanics they can just trust that the body will necessarily move the way it moves -- unless they get in its way... Which allows them to simply orient their bodies correctly and simply be more sensitive to what they feel occurring -- without some mental "plan" of action as to what to do with it. It also happens that it changes the nature of their movement in clear ways. Whether better or worse or the same as anything else I really don't much care. It works for the purpose intended.

If I did not have the evidence of my own eyes -- I would have to give the critics of my language due weight for being too detailed and technical, but I can't, because the way I use it helps them -- not to talk like I write -- but to move better and more easily and more dominating in opposition.

Lorel Latorilla
07-17-2010, 06:42 PM
So was I, I wrote my major thesis on Oyomei (Wang Yang-ming). But I was also an NROTC middie destined to fly and so I had a heavy physics and math minor -- better physics than math.

I don't think that was his question .. but yours is fair -- and yes, as I apply it, it does help people. I am unaware of any measure of "X helps better than Y" but it helps without question, because it refines my observations and corrections.

I don't know how to refine my observations except by working on slicing the language I use to note them finer and more closely tied to objective categories -- which is the only point of my writing here --- practice in doing just that with the concepts that I use to observe and correct -- myself as well as others.

I think you are largely right that dealing with it this way is less accessible in one way -- mechanics not is not as familiar as it should be. But it is more accessible in another way that traditional Eastern concepts are not -- anyone can check my concepts because I did not invent them. I just find that many aspects of them do apply to what I experience and observe, and I derive the application of them from those observations.

In my experience, almost anyone will default to "muscling" and stiffness when uncertain (for whatever reasons), unless they have learned to trust the body's own abilities to move without their "preditctive" intervention seeking some set end result . Call it "scared-baby-grip n' grab syndrome" My corrections and observations given on this basis seem to work pretty well for folks here who find themselves struggle to be effective without "muscling" typically when they find themselves second-guessing something unexpected or uncertain in dealing with a partner's energy.

When I point out a couple of things that I see, they seem to move and report moving their partners more effectively, with less care about the unexpected interaction, with greater ease, less tension, more coordinated and less stiff, against committed energy. I would say empirically that they find it helpful. I would not do it otherwise -- what good would it be?

One reason it may help is that by explaining the mechanics they can just trust that the body will necessarily move the way it moves -- unless they get in its way... Which allows them to simply orient their bodies correctly and simply be more sensitive to what they feel occurring -- without some mental "plan" of action as to what to do with it. It also happens that it changes the nature of their movement in clear ways. Whether better or worse or the same as anything else I really don't much care. It works for the purpose intended.

If I did not have the evidence of my own eyes -- I would have to give the critics of my language due weight for being too detailed and technical, but I can't, because the way I use it helps them -- not to talk like I write -- but to move better and more easily and more dominating in opposition.

1) How does it help people? I'm guessing it has to do with helping 'refine' your observations, in that case--how does the refinement of observations help you make gains in aiki/IP?

2) I do not find your observations more helpful and accessible than Eastern concepts (gotta watch the Orientalist tendency here, Erick). Sure Eastern concepts are not literal, but who is to say metaphors are not accessible? In my experience, the idea of an energy flowing through your body is more phenomenologically 'convenient' than ...whatever it is you talk about. I'd like to hear others opinions on that.

3) "In my experience, almost anyone will default to "muscling" and stiffness when uncertain (for whatever reasons), unless they have learned to trust the body's own abilities to move without their "preditctive" intervention seeking some set end result . Call it "scared-baby-grip n' grab syndrome" My corrections and observations given on this basis seem to work pretty well for folks here who find themselves struggle to be effective without "muscling" typically when they find themselves second-guessing something unexpected or uncertain in dealing with a partner's energy. "

So you're essentially saying that what you write helps people learn how to relax their muscles when they are met with a force? Who are these people? Can they chime in with their ideas? This is not a challenge--I'm curious how people here can translate tediously written essay on body mechanics and apply it to real life application in the form of internal tanren. Are these people vetted by those who STARTED the conversation on internal bodyskill in the first place (Rob, Mike, Dan, etc.)? Have these people met the known internal guys here? Even if they're reporting to be more 'effective', how do you know that what they're doing is similar to what Dan, Mike, and Ark are doing? I think it's a big leap to think that what these guys are doing is similar to what the internal guys are doing. Unless, you're supposing, of course, that one can gain a semblance of internal skill by reading your science textbook.

David Orange
07-17-2010, 10:54 PM
Is this picture a joke?

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1511&fromforums

Looks posed, but....

Is that Ron Ragusa?

Best wishes.

David

Ron advises me by PM that the picture is not a joke, nor staged, but a regular part of their dan testing. The person in the photo is not Ron but one of his students.

David

mathewjgano
07-17-2010, 11:46 PM
1) How does it help people? I'm guessing it has to do with helping 'refine' your observations, in that case--how does the refinement of observations help you make gains in aiki/IP?

2) I do not find your observations more helpful and accessible than Eastern concepts (gotta watch the Orientalist tendency here, Erick). Sure Eastern concepts are not literal, but who is to say metaphors are not accessible? In my experience, the idea of an energy flowing through your body is more phenomenologically 'convenient' than ...whatever it is you talk about. I'd like to hear others opinions on that.

I like both sets of language. I think it's a matter of taste. I've never read Erick as saying one way of describing things is necessarily better than another, except as a matter of personal taste in learning style.

So you're essentially saying that what you write helps people learn how to relax their muscles when they are met with a force? Who are these people? Can they chime in with their ideas? This is not a challenge--I'm curious how people here can translate tediously written essay on body mechanics and apply it to real life application in the form of internal tanren. Are these people vetted by those who STARTED the conversation on internal bodyskill in the first place (Rob, Mike, Dan, etc.)?
I'm guessing he's saying: useful is as useful does. Personally, I think language is purely supplemental. The act of learning internals (I presume) is purely physical. However, finding a set of language you feel comfortable with can add new ways of applying the attention to the practice. My hunch is the language sets used are almost completely arbitrary when it comes to actually learning how to perform, which makes them interchangeable based on personal taste. These conversations have always seemed pretty straight forward to me: Erick comments on what he believes; people talk about how he's demonstrated ignorance. And maybe they're right, but I never see any corrections about what he's said that's incorrect. I've said it before and I'll say it again, maybe Erick doesn't have a clue about how to do IP/IS/aiki...do/whatever, I have no position to know, but on a forum of words such as this, I'd just like to see the words themselves corrected. As I see it, unless I'm planning on visiting him, his physical ability is almost meaningless. To pull out another tired analagy: if I want to talk about flight, but cannot fly, I'm entitled to do that. I'm allowed to tell folks, yes, i know something about flight, even if I've never dropped flaps and gone stick and rudder.
I've never seen Erick say he's an amazing teacher or student of aikido.
I still do not understand the infatuation so many folks seem to have with disliking Ericks posts.
I enjoy them.
Maybe folks should just get over it?
My two bits...another time 'round.
Take care, folks,
Matt

Lorel Latorilla
07-18-2010, 01:46 AM
I like both sets of language. I think it's a matter of taste. I've never read Erick as saying one way of describing things is necessarily better than another, except as a matter of personal taste in learning style.

I'm guessing he's saying: useful is as useful does. Personally, I think language is purely supplemental. The act of learning internals (I presume) is purely physical. However, finding a set of language you feel comfortable with can add new ways of applying the attention to the practice. My hunch is the language sets used are almost completely arbitrary when it comes to actually learning how to perform, which makes them interchangeable based on personal taste. These conversations have always seemed pretty straight forward to me: Erick comments on what he believes; people talk about how he's demonstrated ignorance. And maybe they're right, but I never see any corrections about what he's said that's incorrect. I've said it before and I'll say it again, maybe Erick doesn't have a clue about how to do IP/IS/aiki...do/whatever, I have no position to know, but on a forum of words such as this, I'd just like to see the words themselves corrected. As I see it, unless I'm planning on visiting him, his physical ability is almost meaningless. To pull out another tired analagy: if I want to talk about flight, but cannot fly, I'm entitled to do that. I'm allowed to tell folks, yes, i know something about flight, even if I've never dropped flaps and gone stick and rudder.
I've never seen Erick say he's an amazing teacher or student of aikido.
I still do not understand the infatuation so many folks seem to have with disliking Ericks posts.
I enjoy them.
Maybe folks should just get over it?
My two bits...another time 'round.
Take care, folks,
Matt

Language is not 'purely supplemental', it can point to a reality that can only be understood on a phenomenological level, but it can also mislead one to an undesired, disadvantageous point that will make one go far away from the point where one wants to be (in this case internal skill). I personally don't see how anyone can read what Erick writes and come off enlightened (in internal skill) because most of the time, I just ignore what he writes. Although, I can understand the concerns that people might have that a guy like Erick is pretending to be an authority on internal skill (using all his scientific flim flam).

On another point, if language sets are arbitrary and 'interchangeable', then one who has 'knowledge', should be able to switch from technical (supposing he has knowledge of technical categories) to simple. Erick has failed to do that. Instead, he comes in with his technical and complicated jargon and expects those who are not as well-versed in scientific categories to see that he has knowledge about this? He expects us to see that this will help us? And finally, he expect us to 'correct' him when the whole lot of us are just 'simple'--not in the stupid sense--martial artists that don't care a lick for fancy words and scientific wizardry? There is a reason why we resort to simple language sets--to help each other understand some phenomenal reality. Does Erick want to get published in a science journal or something? Good luck to him, because he's not getting recognized at all by some of us here. He's not in the conversation at all.

David Orange
07-18-2010, 08:38 AM
I'm guessing he's saying: useful is as useful does. Personally, I think language is purely supplemental. The act of learning internals (I presume) is purely physical. However, finding a set of language you feel comfortable with can add new ways of applying the attention to the practice. My hunch is the language sets used are almost completely arbitrary when it comes to actually learning how to perform, which makes them interchangeable based on personal taste.

Matt, that's all assuming that the language points to something that's actually effective.

Imagine me going onto a computer hackers' forum and telling all the old-timers how to improve their hacking when I can barely string a little html together. I'd be laughed at until I quit the board.

The first way I got into this discussion was when Mike Sigman told Rob John "David Orange doesn't have a clue."

It made me mad as heck, but as I tried to work a way around Mike and Rob, I very gradually learned that they were talking about an entire level of martial arts that was present throughout the asian world but which I had entirely missed in over 30 years of training, reading and pursuit of knowledge, including five years in Japan with an early uchi deshi to Morihei Ueshiba. Mike, Rob and Dan were talking about a huge level of knowledge and work and I literally didn't have a clue that that level even existed.

I didn't like that, of course, but when I got that clue, it was like finding out that the house I'd been living in actually has a basement, fully outfitted with other bedrooms, bathrooms and a kitchen that I never knew were there. It made my life and martial arts better.

Of course, I did know that there were "internal" martial arts and methods and I thought I was developing them because I'd trained in tai chi for a long time and I'd done lots of baguazhang and even learned some basics of xing yi chuan, along with the traditional explanations of accumulating and channeling "chi." I'd also had some strange experiences of moving people very powerfully while feeling I'd really done nothing at all: but I couldn't explain how that had happened and I couldn't replicate it at will. That's the difference between having an idea of something and having actual skill in it. My comments on those subjects at that time might have "helped" some people, but compared to what they could have learned from Mike, Rob or Dan, my "help" wouldn't have shown up on the scale.

So the real point is whether someone has the skill or not. If they don't, then listening to their explanations is really a waste of time. And if they lack that skill and their explanations are also convoluted and rely on scientific extrapolations to replace actual skill, they can do more harm than good for people who believe that science can explain anything. Maybe it can, but not if you don't really understand the subject and are just positing some scientific ideas as if internal skills were a sort of unknowable "dark matter" that no one knows about, so you can say anything at all about it and it's just as good as anything anyone else has to say. It's not, and it just adds noise to obscure the real information on the thread.

In Erick's case, people who have shown repeatedly that they have internal skills on a very high level have repeatedly told Erick that his "explanations" don't make any sense to them and do not account for or lead to internal skills.

The old phrase "put up or shut up" pretty well describes the situation. If Erick's tedious explanations have any meaning at all, he should be able to demonstrate high level skills. Then we might all say "Hmmm. Maybe I should read Erick's posts more carefully."

As Dan often says, if Erick had anything like those skills, he would be known for that unusual power without having to "show it off." It would be remarkable to everyone who met him and trained with him and they would remark on "this guy, Erick Mead" whom they had met..

Since Erick has not become known for unusual martial arts power, it leads people to think he doesn't have it and that his explanations are meaningless. And this leads to the idea that he doesn't have a clue--that he has never even felt the kind of power being discussed.

As it is, it seems that he really doesn't understand the subject of discussion. But when people encourage him to get out and feel the power of people like Mike, Dan and Rob, he won't do it. Instead, he claims that Dan, for one, has some kind of bad reputation for hurting people or something. But like Dan's unusual power, a tendency to hurt people would quickly become generally known and I've never heard of that from anyone except Erick....so....I have to conclude....that Erick needs to get a clue.

David

gdandscompserv
07-18-2010, 09:15 AM
Darn, this thread started out so well.:crazy:

gdandscompserv
07-18-2010, 09:30 AM
Is this picture a joke?

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1511&fromforums

Looks posed, but....

Is that Ron Ragusa?

Best wishes.

David
Photo's like that remind me of work. Everybody working hard, going in different directions, while it would appear they are all trying to accomplish the same goal. Not to say that the gentlemen sitting in seiza couldn't hold his position against a concerted effort. It just doesn't look like that's what's happening. I have rarely seen a group of people able to focus their collective forces (mental & physical) into one point. In other words; I'm not sure if a line of people pushing on someone in slightly different directions, with slightly different intents, is any more powerful than one person. On the other hand, resisting a line up of Dan's students pushing; now that might be a test. Hope to have the honor someday.
And this is probably 2 posts too many for me.
Bowing out,
Ricky
:D

David Orange
07-18-2010, 12:08 PM
Photo's like that remind me of work. Everybody working hard, going in different directions, while it would appear they are all trying to accomplish the same goal. Not to say that the gentlemen sitting in seiza couldn't hold his position against a concerted effort...

Ron says it's ki aikido, so that would be one of the ki tests coming down from Tohei. He did say that having multiple people pushing doesn't add as much as you might think.

I think having multiple people pushing from different angles would be a lot harder to deal with.

Not criticizing their method, just saying....

David

David Orange
07-18-2010, 12:09 PM
Darn, this thread started out so well.:crazy:

Yeah. We need to get it back where it should be: on JAMES HUANG!!

Mike Sigman
07-18-2010, 02:18 PM
The first way I got into this discussion was when Mike Sigman told Rob John "David Orange doesn't have a clue."

It made me mad as heck, but as I tried to work a way around Mike and Rob, I very gradually learned that they were talking about an entire level of martial arts that was present throughout the asian world but which I had entirely missed in over 30 years of training, reading and pursuit of knowledge, including five years in Japan with an early uchi deshi to Morihei Ueshiba. Mike, Rob and Dan were talking about a huge level of knowledge and work and I literally didn't have a clue that that level even existed. OK, it sounds like you owe me because I inspired you. If I had to guess, Mike Sigman didn't just say "David Orange doesn't have a clue".... David Orange probably contributed a few telling remarks before I would say something like that out of the blue. ;)

I didn't like that, of course, but when I got that clue, it was like finding out that the house I'd been living in actually has a basement, fully outfitted with other bedrooms, bathrooms and a kitchen that I never knew were there. It made my life and martial arts better.

Of course, I did know that there were "internal" martial arts and methods and I thought I was developing them because I'd trained in tai chi for a long time and I'd done lots of baguazhang and even learned some basics of xing yi chuan, along with the traditional explanations of accumulating and channeling "chi." I'd also had some strange experiences of moving people very powerfully while feeling I'd really done nothing at all: but I couldn't explain how that had happened and I couldn't replicate it at will. That's the difference between having an idea of something and having actual skill in it. My comments on those subjects at that time might have "helped" some people, but compared to what they could have learned from Mike, Rob or Dan, my "help" wouldn't have shown up on the scale.

So the real point is whether someone has the skill or not. If they don't, then listening to their explanations is really a waste of time. And if they lack that skill and their explanations are also convoluted and rely on scientific extrapolations to replace actual skill, they can do more harm than good for people who believe that science can explain anything. Maybe it can, but not if you don't really understand the subject and are just positing some scientific ideas as if internal skills were a sort of unknowable "dark matter" that no one knows about, so you can say anything at all about it and it's just as good as anything anyone else has to say. It's not, and it just adds noise to obscure the real information on the thread.

In Erick's case, people who have shown repeatedly that they have internal skills on a very high level have repeatedly told Erick that his "explanations" don't make any sense to them and do not account for or lead to internal skills. Frankly, I don't know of *anyone* who has "a very high level" of internal skills who has said anything to Erick on this forum. At the best you've seen a few people with some moderate skills make some remarks because I don't know anyone who posts on this forum that has very high level skills. Rather than personally denigrate anyone, maybe it's best to understand that there are simply levels of understanding and gradations of skills. In my personal opinion Erick doesn't really have a grasp on these skills... yet. As you yourself now can recognize, David, some people give away what they know/don't-know by what they post. People with better skills can often spot easily what the person below them in skills is totally unaware what he doesn't know.... but this will continue to happen as someone progresses. I can spot a lot of things in what people say that they themselves are unaware is a big giveaway... but in that same sense, I'm smart enough to know that my skill level is just as obvious to, say, Chen Xiaowang or many others. It's a continuum of skills, not a situation of "Joe Blow *KNOWS* this stuff at a very high level, while Tommy Smith doesn't have a clue".

I'd say a couple of things about these skills that might be helpful:

The best thing to learn to do well before anything else is some of Tohei's simple "ki tests". If you can't do those things well, you can't do anything else well, no matter how many "secrets" you think you know.

If you really understand this stuff you can explain it simply. If you can't explain it simply and you don't realize how obvious your ability to make 'simple explanations' spotlights your real skill level, then you're kidding yourself about what you know. Conversely, if you can't understand some simple model like "groundpath", "downpath", "store-and-release", "move from the dantien", etc., then you have a way to go... these kinds of very simple models have always gotten a quick nod of understanding by real experts when they see them illustrated (even though, of course, these models are not complete, by any means).

What Erick does or doesn't know isn't worth getting into personal putdowns about. People who live in glass houses, in terms of these skills, should not throw stones... or at least not big stones. ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Erick Mead
07-18-2010, 05:12 PM
David -- I don't get out, because --- I just don't get out. I am not known for what you are seeking because I have no particular desire to be known for anything. I just genuinely wish to place things within a certain context -- and have no desire to force anyone else into that context who does not want to use it. No one has yet pointed to anything I have observed mechanically that is refuted in practice -- save only Chi'imed, who kindly pointed out a math error in an early exploration when scaling a power law, but I acknowledge that to him -- and even that correction only tempered the degree -- it did not refute the basic point.

As to "meeting anyone" I tried to get someone well-reputed in all respects down here, the first effort conflicted in dates and then for the second he reluctantly withdrew because his shihan ceased authorizing outside seminars. Having been volunteered certain information over two years ago on the reputation of a chief advocate which concerns me -- I am quite put off by the whole tone of similar discussion by those who have become devotees and in the same manner. FWIW the same person who let me know of that concern two years ago -- also had a very high opinion of the guy who we tried to bring down. PM if you want what I was given and then follow up on your own, if you wish,and you be your own judge ... Others who have done so, have volunteered to me their own concerns with the adoption of this tone, and what it may suggest about the whole enterprise... which is not the IT/IS issue itself, but merely of a certain approach to it.

I would give anyone the benefit of the doubt, notwithstanding that report- as I have tried to answer Lorel, and you, as squarely as I can. However, we are past doubts on the score of confirming my concern in other quarters. There is no simple conceptual criticism or offering concrete evidence against my observations, nor even mere laissez faire disregard of a divergent opinion. The confirmation lies in the tone of attack and knee-jerk dismissal, the exploitation of technical misunderstanding, that you now repeat (in stark change from your earlier manner, I note), all of which shows the intolerance of the echo chamber. I am not at all encouraged to play. And that, as you indicate, taints the acceptance of any bona fides, in every direction, for the entire discussion.

gregstec
07-18-2010, 06:43 PM
Is this picture a joke?

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1511&fromforums

Looks posed, but....

Is that Ron Ragusa?

Best wishes.

David

Don't know who is than picture - but FWIW, I have seen as well as been involved in demos like that pictured - all it takes next after establishing the connection of all involved is a little twitch of your center, and those ukes will go flying, with the last in line moving the most :)

Greg

Gary David
07-18-2010, 09:25 PM
Ron says it's ki aikido, so that would be one of the ki tests coming down from Tohei. He did say that having multiple people pushing doesn't add as much as you might think.

I think having multiple people pushing from different angles would be a lot harder to deal with.

Not criticizing their method, just saying....

David

David
We used to do this years ago......it is the old "......equal but opposite......." I spend as much effort holding back the one pushing on my back as I did pushing on the sitting down person..... the person sitting down got little more than what I was applying. Today I would likely frame up and run the down (ground) path back through the chain and bounce the seated person......

Yamazaru
07-18-2010, 10:52 PM
I hope Eric's sources implying that Dan is "not safe" weren't any fellow Floridians. That would be completely ridiculous. I was present for all of Dan's Florida visit and he sure had a heaping helping of "martial virtue"- he obviously has heavy duty internals and can deliver massive power but had great control as well. I saw him free play with several folks and he kept it just at the level they were comfortable with while still dominating (and used it as a teaching method, not a pissing match). Keep in mind he was working with people whose skill level ranged from novice to shihan in a few different arts.

That's my take but everyone else I know that worked with him there has agreed. Scary skills, great control and a gracious guy...almost makes up for his penchant for wearing sheer, translucent pants :eek:

Lorel Latorilla
07-19-2010, 04:22 AM
I would give anyone the benefit of the doubt, notwithstanding that report- as I have tried to answer Lorel, and you, as squarely as I can. However, we are past doubts on the score of confirming my concern in other quarters. There is no simple conceptual criticism or offering concrete evidence against my observations, nor even mere laissez faire disregard of a divergent opinion. The confirmation lies in the tone of attack and knee-jerk dismissal, the exploitation of technical misunderstanding, that you now repeat (in stark change from your earlier manner, I note), all of which shows the intolerance of the echo chamber. I am not at all encouraged to play. And that, as you indicate, taints the acceptance of any bona fides, in every direction, for the entire discussion.

Erick, you still don't get it.

I can speak for myself, but I am a bunkei dolt that can't correct you at all because I do not have knowledge of the categories you use. It is unfair and quite passive-aggressive for you to say that we're attacking you (knee-jerk dismissal? nice one there) or being intolerant when you probably know a lot of us do not possess the same technical vocabulary/knowledge that you possess. Knowing all this, why do you fault us for failing to meet your expectations?

Try to observe the conversations we have here. Do we talk about 'shears' and 'torsional angular vibrations" and all that? No. We talk like normal people, using 'language sets'--to the best of our expressive abilities--that the majority of us can understand. Words like 'pressure' or even anatomical expressions like "tilting the pelvis" are much more understandable than "torsional angular vibrational inertia membrane". It's like we're having a tea, talking about basketball, and an alien comes down and is all "hey I know that!" and then starts to describe what we're talking about in a language we're not familiar with. Come down to earth, Erick, and maybe we can have a conversation, and also maybe we can 'correct' your observations--if that is really what your intention is. Does it hurt to speak simply to some of us simpletons?

DH
07-19-2010, 04:44 AM
It's like we're having a tea, talking about basketball, and an alien comes down and is all "hey I know that!" and then starts to describe what we're talking about in a language we're not familiar with. Come down to earth, Erick, and maybe we can have a conversation, and also maybe we can 'correct' your observations--if that is really what your intention is. Does it hurt to speak simply to some of us simpletons?
Hello Lorel
That is not a good argument, bud.
Eric hides behind a language most do not understand for the exact reason you name in the above. He desperately wants to be seen as part of those who have the skills, or he wouldn't continue to interrupt the discussions. That much has been made obvious. He wants people to believe he owns the skills and can use them.
"hey I know that!" and then lead people to believe he can I]"describe what we're talking about"[/i]

I circumvented all of the smoke screen, went through the sham and asked to meet and see it or at least have him meet others who have met us. Seemed simple to me. The result was that I got personally attacked.

The Eric equation isn't personal, It is a discussion of skills and knowledge. It can be resolved with no debates, no "personalities" and "character assasinations" used as a defense, no "language gap," and no misunderstandings of engineering and science. And all by the same standards the Aikiweb readership used on me and everyone else.
All settled instantly with one word....

"Show!"He never will...because he can't. He has no real part in the dialogue because he in fact
1. "Does not know this"
And he in fact cannot
2. "describe what we're talking about" because of # 1!

That is the key to the discussion. Not personalities or character. Where not running for office.
It's no big deal really. The vast majority of MAers (As David pointed out in his thirty years) in fact didn't even know this stuff even existed.
I wish Eric well in his pursuits. But I think the next step for him is obvious. Where is the harm? Everyone is having fun, learning and sharing and making friends. Goodness gracious, it's not like you're defending your dissertation or getting a tooth pulled. It's meeting up with Martial Artists, and not even in a martial setting...gees!
Cheers
Dan

Lorel Latorilla
07-19-2010, 07:16 AM
Who knows Dan, maybe Erick can speak simply to us and then we can judge from there if he is conversant. Since he is not open to meeting you, I guess what we can do here is to challenge him to speak simply. You up for the challenge Erick? Can you explain your 'knowledge' simply to us?

David Orange
07-19-2010, 08:59 AM
OK, it sounds like you owe me because I inspired you.

Not only that, but some of your guys in Atlanta have shown me things that informed further understandings, so I can't deny the debt to Mike Sigman.

If I had to guess, Mike Sigman didn't just say "David Orange doesn't have a clue".... David Orange probably contributed a few telling remarks before I would say something like that out of the blue. ;)

Just the old standard invisible ki flowing comments....followed by derision of mechanically produced "ki".

I mean, I knew that the subject of "internal power" existed, and I had felt it and expressed some little bit by accident, but you guys were talking about controlled skill, how to attain it and how to apply it at will, which came down from abstractions to concrete (...mobile, powerful, grounded, yin yang balanced, dual-spiral supporting center that has been enriched in aiki power by several decades of hard training will powerfully and effortlessly cause a powerful kuzushi on anyone that touches you...) methods...:D

...As you yourself now can recognize, David, some people give away what they know/don't-know by what they post. People with better skills can often spot easily what the person below them in skills is totally unaware what he doesn't know.... but this will continue to happen as someone progresses. I can spot a lot of things in what people say that they themselves are unaware is a big giveaway... but in that same sense, I'm smart enough to know that my skill level is just as obvious to, say, Chen Xiaowang or many others.

No doubt here.

What Erick does or doesn't know isn't worth getting into personal putdowns about. People who live in glass houses, in terms of these skills, should not throw stones... or at least not big stones. ;)

Agreed. I certainly don't have any skills at all, at this point. I've just glimpsed some basic concepts and don't have actual control of any of them enough to begin calling them "skills".

Thanks.

David

Mike Sigman
07-19-2010, 09:24 AM
Not only that, but some of your guys in Atlanta have shown me things that informed further understandings, so I can't deny the debt to Mike Sigman. Hey, thank those guys in Atlanta, not me. None of them told me about it. (...mobile, powerful, grounded, yin yang balanced, dual-spiral supporting center that has been enriched in aiki power by several decades of hard training will powerfully and effortlessly cause a powerful kuzushi on anyone that touches you...)

"Dual-spiral supporting center"? Not terms I've ever used. ;)

Mike

David Orange
07-19-2010, 09:44 AM
Hey, thank those guys in Atlanta, not me. None of them told me about it.

"Dual-spiral supporting center"? Not terms I've ever used. ;)



A tip of the hat to the emininent Mr. Huang! :p

David

akiy
07-19-2010, 09:52 AM
Thread closed due to it turning into a personal discussion.

-- Jun