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BAP
07-03-2010, 10:01 PM
I came across the following article in a JJ Forum but I thought it might be interesting for readers here since it discussed probablility of falling down during a confrontation and the likely outcome once you do fall.

Additionally it gives some good common sense suggestions at the end on what to be careful of in avoiding a confrontation in the first place.

http://jiujitsu365.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/do-most-fights-go-to-the-ground-research-i-conducted/

T0ny
07-06-2010, 11:58 AM
That was an interesting read. Thank you.

DH
07-06-2010, 12:13 PM
Never play the other guys game. Learn how to do...then how to undo.
Good rules for the road
Dan

Budd
07-06-2010, 12:30 PM
You don't have to be the world's greatest grappler to know how to "not play the grappler's game" but it helps to get some experience, for sure. Plus it's a lot of fun!

Eric Joyce
07-06-2010, 12:45 PM
Interesting article. For what it's worth, there is an article on EJMAS that has talked about this as well. Here is the link: http://ejmas.com/jnc/2007jnc/jncart_Leblanc_0701.html

It was specific to a study presented by ASLET (American Society of Law Enforcement Training) in July of 1997 at a Use of Force Training Seminar.

Janet Rosen
07-06-2010, 12:49 PM
Blair, thanks for posting - a good article.

Ed Keith
07-06-2010, 01:00 PM
You don't have to be the world's greatest grappler to know how to "not play the grappler's game" but it helps to get some experience, for sure. Plus it's a lot of fun!

Easier said than done!

I've spent some time trying to figure out what to do if taken to the ground. The biggest problem is that all the people I've talked to who are trained in ground fighting (mostly judoka) are completely convinced that the goal is to pin, and I am convinced that the goal is to get the hell off the ground!

I think I'm starting to make some progress with a somewhat bizarre combination of BJJ, Capoeira and Aikido.

Mark Kruger
07-06-2010, 04:11 PM
Easier said than done!

I've spent some time trying to figure out what to do if taken to the ground. The biggest problem is that all the people I've talked to who are trained in ground fighting (mostly judoka) are completely convinced that the goal is to pin, and I am convinced that the goal is to get the hell off the ground!

For judo competition a pin is an acceptable goal. It isn't the best goal in my opinion since you can burn alot of energy holding a pin for the 25 seconds it takes to score an ippon. I think it is taught first since it is easier to get than a choke and less dangerous than an arm bar when applied with less then adequate control. Since it is the most familiar form of control on the ground it is the most likely to be demonstrated.

A pin demonstrates that you have superior position. A position from which you can attack or disengage from at _your_ discretion while the person being pinned has extremely limited options.

There are dis-incentives to getting back up, unless there are multiple adversaries. It makes sense to work where the disparity in experience is greatest. Most folks don't have much experience on the ground. A modicum of groundwork knowledge creates a large disparity of experience with these folks. If both parties are armed with pistols, then opening distance (getting up) without establishing a decisively advantage results results in both parties getting shot repeatedly. If you don't have a pistol and your adversary does, and you also open distance without establishing a decisive advantage, you get shot repeatedly. While less clear cut, knife work exhibits similar behavior since it is easier to control a knife on the ground than it is standing up.

Also, getting up if the other person is standing is fraught with danger and very difficult to do without exposing yourself to attack.

Ed Keith
07-08-2010, 09:27 AM
I always assume there are multiple attackers, even if I can only see one (I think yesterdays Doka of the Day said something about this).

I seem to recall Tohei Sensei teaching that you should always get off the ground as quickly as possible.

What you are on top of someone pinning him you are a sitting duck for his friend to cold cock you from above.

Of course when there is a weapon involve this may out way other concerns. But barring a weapon, I would want to get off the ground.

Ed Keith
07-08-2010, 09:31 AM
wrt getting up with out exposing ones self. I always get up to zagi or a capoeira stance before trying to stand. This way can can keep myself covered.

Budd
07-08-2010, 09:34 AM
There's a very good reason why you've seen the tide of MMA start to shift back in favor to well-balanced strikers that have put in the time with grapplers to learn how not to get taken down, pinned or submitted (by grappling . . period). There is no perfect defense - even Olympic class wrestlers still get taken down.

But training with the idea that it *can* happen as well as optimal methods to respond, escape, regain position, etc. - can be very valuable. Making any assumption without testing it out and putting it through its paces - can be very naive and potentially dangerous.