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Ketsan
06-22-2010, 01:11 PM
I've seen a couple of teachers, including Chiba Sensei make this odd bow at the end of demonstrating. From a standing position they literally bend down and touch the floor with one hand.

Does anyone have any idea where this comes from or what it's about?

mathewjgano
06-22-2010, 01:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yiBehK4vBU
Like here at 0:30?

Rob Watson
06-22-2010, 01:52 PM
Or just with one hand touching the mat ... Shibata does that too. I seem to have picked it up too .... I'm just too lazy to drop for a full seated formal bow. I mean efficient ... not lazy.

RED
06-22-2010, 02:03 PM
Or just with one hand touching the mat ... Shibata does that too. I seem to have picked it up too .... I'm just too lazy to drop for a full seated formal bow. I mean efficient ... not lazy.

Shibata trained under Chiba though, If I'm remembering correctly.

Mark Uttech
06-22-2010, 03:22 PM
Onegaishimasu. I have seen films of other sensei doing that type of bow at seminars. Could be a timesaver, if nothing else...

In gassho,

Mark

Carsten Möllering
06-22-2010, 03:54 PM
Does anyone have any idea where this comes from or what it's about?
kenjutsu?

nekobaka
06-22-2010, 05:21 PM
never seen in during the 13 years I've lived in Japan, probably something in that line of shihan, definitely just a lazy bow in my opinion. most of the shihan I see just do a standing bow or a head nod.

Flintstone
06-22-2010, 06:25 PM
Qué falta de conocimiento.

John Matsushima
06-22-2010, 07:13 PM
I don't think it was a bow. Looked to me more like he was just stretching his legs in a deep horse stance.

David Orange
06-22-2010, 07:22 PM
I don't think it was a bow. Looked to me more like he was just stretching his legs in a deep horse stance.

Really looked a lot like a sumo gesture, like they do at the beginning of the match. But it does look more like a stretch than a bow...and maybe the OP had seen something similar...

Adam Huss
06-22-2010, 10:34 PM
I do stretches like that a lot....looked like he was "working out a kink," so to speak. As far as bows go, that's a lot more effort than tachirei and it wouldn't make sense for him to go to zarei in that situation. But it is a bit confusing with the uke and other students all bowing simultaneous. Maybe they saw him do that and got confused and bowed.

Which brings me to a point for another thread....people misinterpreting what teacher is doing as how technique should be done when teacher was doing it that way out of necessity. I definitely have stories of this...but too off topic. Alex, is this what you think may have happened, or are you speaking of something different than what Matthew San posted/linked?

Ketsan
06-23-2010, 07:13 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yiBehK4vBU
Like here at 0:30?

Not quite. Usually it's done with one hand; but that kind of thing.

Ketsan
06-23-2010, 07:20 AM
Alex, is this what you think may have happened, or are you speaking of something different than what Matthew San posted/linked?

No it's a habbit I've noticed over the years from some teachers in Chiba's line where at the end of demonstrating they basically do what Chiba did in the video only they touch the mat with one hand.

niall
06-23-2010, 08:25 AM
I think it's a shorthand version of a kenjutsu bow as Carsten suggested. Here's one example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xccorooux6A (at 0.36). I don't think that a kenjutsu sensei would be very impressed though.

Dennis Hooker
06-23-2010, 09:05 AM
A few teachers do it. Some don't bow at all after a demo to the class. If you bow to the teacher after a demo then by rights he should be at your level to bow back unless he is of such exalted rank you are inferior or he is superior as in a lord or master. I ask my uke to stand and bow if they wish because if they sit I got to and I don't want to anymore, it hurts and hinders my mobility. I know a few other 7 and 8th dans who give me the same reason. Maybe not the case for all but it is for some.

Kent Enfield
06-23-2010, 09:47 AM
I think it's a shorthand version of a kenjutsu bow as Carsten suggested.What, exactly, is "a kenjutsu bow"? Every ryu has its own preferred way of doing things.

niall
06-23-2010, 11:18 AM
A kenjutsu bow is a bow used in kenjutsu as opposed to another budo. The example I gave was from Shinkage Ryu. Here is another example from Itto Ryu showing a similar bow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBmi0yjeRr0 at about 9.11.
So since a similar bow appears in two discrete representative styles I think it's certainly possible that it's a kenjutsu bow.

sakumeikan
06-23-2010, 11:32 AM
kenjutsu?

This may well be a variation on the bow used by Kashima exponents.Its is quick efficient and safe to use in a crowded environment.

Adam Huss
06-23-2010, 12:23 PM
interesting.

Keith Larman
06-23-2010, 12:46 PM
What, exactly, is "a kenjutsu bow"? Every ryu has its own preferred way of doing things.

I was going to say, I've seen more variation than similarities as I have been blessed to see various groups practice. When in Rome comes to mind... Shrug.

Keith Larman
06-23-2010, 12:53 PM
I ask my uke to stand and bow if they wish because if they sit I got to and I don't want to anymore, it hurts and hinders my mobility. I know a few other 7 and 8th dans who give me the same reason. Maybe not the case for all but it is for some.

Yeah, I just recently pulled a newly minted Yudansha aside to let him know that etiquette also involves being aware of how you bow can affect the other person, especially those with older, damaged knees and backs. He had been down in seiza as the shihan was explaining a point. The Shihan told everyone to practice and went to bow to his uke only to see him in seiza still. So he got down into seiza himself and bowed. Knowing he is suffering from a serious knee injury just watching it made my knees hurt.

Adam Huss
06-23-2010, 02:56 PM
Hmmm...I've always felt in my reishisi that it isn't appropriate to bow to someone who is standing/sitting opposite myself...as long as the depth/length of bow is appropriate to rank. But that's just me...I've never sought clarification on that one and no one's said anything to me when I've done, for lack of a better word, hamni hamdachi bowing to my standing sensei. I always figured its more respectful to stay seated when sensei is bowing to have students practice what he showed rather than have him wait for me to stand back up and properly bow in return. Again, that's just me....I'll ask in class next time.
Osu!

Carsten Möllering
06-23-2010, 04:49 PM
This may well be a variation on the bow used by Kashima exponents.
Thats what I thought.

sakumeikan
06-23-2010, 05:44 PM
Thats what I thought.

As a matter of fact I use this bow virtually all the time.I am a Birankai International teacher.Never thought of asking Chiba Sensei why he does this particular bow.Never gave it any real thought.
Joe.

Kent Enfield
06-24-2010, 12:11 AM
A kenjutsu bow is a bow used in kenjutsu as opposed to another budo. The example I gave was from Shinkage Ryu. Here is another example from Itto Ryu showing a similar bow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBmi0yjeRr0 at about 9.11.
So since a similar bow appears in two discrete representative styles I think it's certainly possible that it's a kenjutsu bow.
Those bows aren't very similar. The Shinkage Ryu bow is done from seiza with the fists touching the floor outside the knees. The Hokushin Itto Ryu one is done from sonkyo with the finger tips touching the floor inside the thighs. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu does a different bow. Jigen Ryu does something else. Bokuden Ryu does yet another thing. Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu does still another. Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu often demonstrates without a bow between uchidachi and shidachi. You can often tell which school you're watching just by the reishiki they start with.

David Yap
06-24-2010, 12:17 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yiBehK4vBU
Like here at 0:30?

Hi all,

This is what I observe from the video:

1. When bowing (in seiza) to the shomen and to the class, Chiba's palms were pointing up (0.04). This gesture symbolizes the "opening of the heart" -- a sign of humility.
2. At 0.08 and 0.36, instead of the normal standing bow, he used the mushin (no-mind) gassho -- a form of greetings use in most Buddhist communities across the globe. He does this greeting/bowing most of the time.
3. After the demo at 0.33, he sort of took a sumo-stance and bowed touching the floor with the tips of his fingers and with his palms facing the class and then straightened up into a natural stance. By that gesture, he could be telling the class, "That's it, please practice".

I am not his student and neither have I attended his seminars, I guess that he expects less formality compared to some other shihans. When Toshiyuki Arai shihan from Gunma Aikikai visited our dojo a few years ago, he commented that students can practice more with the time utilized for all the formal bowings. He suggested that the formality of bowing be restricted to the opening and closing of the class only.

David Y

ninjaqutie
06-24-2010, 04:22 PM
That type of bow happens in my dojo all the time. Never really thought about it. Sensei was a student of Chiba Sensei as well...

We also don't neccesarily bow on the same level. When sensei is done using me as uke, more often then not, I go into seiza and bow. He remains standing and bows to me. We just bow to whomever in whatever position we happen to be in (standing or in seiza).

niall
06-24-2010, 04:35 PM
If it turns out to be a variation of a Kashima bow then that would be a style of kenjutsu as some of us thought.

But there are a couple of interesting points this raises.

If George Ledyard doesn't mind I will quote from his response to an interesting article by Ellis Amdur about O Sensei and kenjutsu: http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=1895

"If you look at the sword work done by Saotome, Chiba and Imaizumi Sensei (this is not meant to be a totally inclusive list) you will find elements of itto ryu and kashima sword. They have been asked where they picked this up and the response is immediately murky and vague… clearly the intention is to not provide an answer to the question."

So maybe we won't get a definitive answer.

Another interesting point is whether Chiba Sensei's students are consciously or unconsciously doing some version of this.

Also David made the point about the gassho. It's rare in aikido too in my experience. I believe it's used in shorinji kempo because as well as a greeting it's also an effective kamae (guard).

sakumeikan
06-24-2010, 06:21 PM
Hi all,

This is what I observe from the video:

1. When bowing (in seiza) to the shomen and to the class, Chiba's palms were pointing up (0.04). This gesture symbolizes the "opening of the heart" -- a sign of humility.
2. At 0.08 and 0.36, instead of the normal standing bow, he used the mushin (no-mind) gassho -- a form of greetings use in most Buddhist communities across the globe. He does this greeting/bowing most of the time.
3. After the demo at 0.33, he sort of took a sumo-stance and bowed touching the floor with the tips of his fingers and with his palms facing the class and then straightened up into a natural stance. By that gesture, he could be telling the class, "That's it, please practice".

I am not his student and neither have I attended his seminars, I guess that he expects less formality compared to some other shihans. When Toshiyuki Arai shihan from Gunma Aikikai visited our dojo a few years ago, he commented that students can practice more with the time utilized for all the formal bowings. He suggested that the formality of bowing be restricted to the opening and closing of the class only.

David Y

The use of Gassho by Chiba Sensei is in keeping with the fact that he is a Buddhist priest.

David Yap
06-24-2010, 09:55 PM
The use of Gassho by Chiba Sensei is in keeping with the fact that he is a Buddhist priest.

Hi Joe,

That, explains the palms up bow at the beginning of the class/seminar.

In gassho,

David Y

sakumeikan
06-25-2010, 01:21 AM
Hi Joe,

That, explains the palms up bow at the beginning of the class/seminar.

In gassho,

David Y

Dear David,
Yes indeed.At the opening of every class Chiba Sensei use the palm upward bow [indicating nothing in the hands as it were]rather than placing palms of both hands on the tatami ie the normal method.
Cheers,Joe.