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MM
06-15-2010, 09:11 AM
From this link,
http://article.nationalreview.com/435971/gun-control-and-mass-murders/john-r-lott-jr?page=1


But surely this was an aberration. Because America has the most guns, multiple-victim public shootings are an American thing, right? No, not at all. Contrary to public perception, Western Europe, most of whose countries have much tougher gun laws than the United States, has experienced many of the worst multiple-victim public shootings. Particularly telling, all the multiple-victim public shootings in Western Europe have occurred in places where civilians are not permitted to carry guns. The same is true in the United States: All the public shootings in which more than three people have been killed have occurred in places where civilians may not legally bring guns.

The article talks about gun control and mass murders in various areas around the world.

I'm removing the whole gun control debate from this thread. Don't bring it up at all. There will always be places where the public can't carry a gun. There will always be places where an insane person starts shooting. Just because someone *can* legally carry concealed doesn't mean that person will *always* be carrying a concealed gun.

So, what precautions or training or measures have you taken for that very rare occurrence of a madman with a gun? What suggestions do you have? Or do you play the odds since this is such an extremely rare event?

lbb
06-15-2010, 10:51 AM
I'm removing the whole gun control debate from this thread. Don't bring it up at all.

I think a more accurate statement would have been, "I don't want to discuss gun control," or "My purpose in starting this discussion is not to discuss gun control." You can't actually "remove" an aspect of the discussion, particularly not after having just inserted a quote that appears to have no purpose whatsoever except to raise the very issue that you claim to not want to discuss.

In answer to your question, I don't take any precautions whatsoever against the possibility that I may encounter a random killer with a firearm. I've got enough on my plate dealing with real troubles that happen every day, I don't have time to worry about highly unlikely problems like this one.

MM
06-15-2010, 11:14 AM
I think a more accurate statement would have been, "I don't want to discuss gun control," or "My purpose in starting this discussion is not to discuss gun control." You can't actually "remove" an aspect of the discussion, particularly not after having just inserted a quote that appears to have no purpose whatsoever except to raise the very issue that you claim to not want to discuss.


Thanks for the reply, Mary. In regards to the above, for me, I stand by my words. If it gets to the point where people want to discuss gun control, I'll bow out and ask Jun to close the thread. For me, it's that simple.

And while the article does address that issue, it also brings up a very important point that people do find themselves in very bad places -- all over the world.


In answer to your question, I don't take any precautions whatsoever against the possibility that I may encounter a random killer with a firearm. I've got enough on my plate dealing with real troubles that happen every day, I don't have time to worry about highly unlikely problems like this one.

I think that's going to be the answer for a lot of people. It's what I call playing the odds. If the odds are rare that you'll ever find yourself in that situation, most people have a lot of other pressing things to concentrate on. A very solid, viable answer. Thanks.

Hopefully, though, there will be posts with other answers.

Eric Joyce
06-15-2010, 11:34 AM
Hi Mark,

This was a very interesting article. I typically don't post on the Open Discussion forum, but I felt compelled to do so and share my experience.

Mark said:
"So, what precautions or training or measures have you taken for that very rare occurrence of a madman with a gun? What suggestions do you have? Or do you play the odds since this is such an extremely rare event? "

In addition to jujutsu, I also train in Krav Maga and we go through these types of scenarios and stress drills on how to defend oneself against someone with a gun, knife or rifle. Then we do scenarios where people come into a public place with weapons: movie theater, bank, airplane, etc. We also learn how to fire weapons, disarm the attacker, clearing a weapon, and so forth. One thing that is stressed is that if you can run to safety, do it…don't be a hero. If you are in a situation where you have no choice and it's a matter of life and death, do what you have to do. This type of training has helped me a lot about understanding the realities of violent encounters and what can happen in a split second, the adrenaline dump, the chaos involved, hostage situations, innocent people standing around including loved ones, etc.

In addition to this, we learn how to observe people who seem a little suspicious. Not in the paranoid sense, but observing behaviors like: pacing, fidgety hands, darting eyes like they are casing the place, or people "measuring" like counting how many steps to a certain door, etc. However, the nicest person could also be suspect as well, you just never know.

I think the training I receive helps me quite a bit in terms of awareness and how to react. But to be honest, I don't know what I would do when the "stuff" hits the fan. I know how I have reacted in scenarios, but real life is just so unpredictable and brutal. It would be my hope that the training I received would take over. The only precaution or measures I would recommend for anyone is to be aware of how these scenarios start and progress and design scenario training to see how you react in these situations and make them an integral part of your training. This is by no means the silver bullet, but it gives you some training tools and a sense of what could happen and how you can best prepare for these nasty situations. Just my .02 cents.

Eric Joyce
06-15-2010, 11:45 AM
In answer to your question, I don't take any precautions whatsoever against the possibility that I may encounter a random killer with a firearm. I've got enough on my plate dealing with real troubles that happen every day, I don't have time to worry about highly unlikely problems like this one.

Hi Mary,

I respect your opinion and I too once shared your viewpoint. I mean what are the odds right? However, my viewpoint was due to the fact that I did not want to admit that I truly wouldn't know what to do and that the training I received did not address those potential realities. Basically, I was scared to admit I wasn't prepared and brushed it off. My training now includes those scenarios because they do and can creep up and when it does, it is a very scary and humbling experience.

MM
06-15-2010, 11:58 AM
Hi Mark,

This was a very interesting article. I typically don't post on the Open Discussion forum, but I felt compelled to do so and share my experience.

Mark said:
"So, what precautions or training or measures have you taken for that very rare occurrence of a madman with a gun? What suggestions do you have? Or do you play the odds since this is such an extremely rare event? "

In addition to jujutsu, I also train in Krav Maga and we go through these types of scenarios and stress drills on how to defend oneself against someone with a gun, knife or rifle. Then we do scenarios


Thanks for the reply. I would imagine that there are various other martial training schools that have similar methods, although it sounds like you have a good one. Anything worthwhile to share (with the emphasis being that this is an Internet forum and this is no replacement for hands on training) from your training? Beyond the good advice of run to safety or cover, that is. :)

Kevin Leavitt
06-15-2010, 12:17 PM
I take none. extremely rare that I can imagine such conditions that would warrant me to carry a gun or that I can imagine how I might mitigate such an occurrence anyway as a "civil" member of society.

Besides, I really want to live in a world in which I can go about my day to day life and not have to worry about bad guys all the time. I get enough of that at work.

I support people's right to bear arms, it is just not something that I personally feel inclined to do on a daily basis. If things get bad enough then I will, i want that option and choice to be mine.

IMM, the logic that says I should carry a gun to mitigate risk, means that I'd also have to wear a protective helmet all the time since I have had more head injuries from running into tree branches, signs, and falling on ice than I have been attacked by bad guys in America.

I also like the logic that requires hunters to wear blaze orange to protect themselves. That is okay, but if we were really concerned about their lives we should also require them to carry defibulators as each fall more hunters die from cardiac arrest while hunting than from being shot! (sorry can't find the reference right now).

I love statistics and logic!

dps
06-15-2010, 12:18 PM
Things that I do anyway,

Aikido has increased my awareness of my surroundings. I pay more attention to where I am, what is going on around me, what is odd or out of place.

I have always played a game of "what if", trying to image responses to emergency situations happening where I happen to be at the time, like if there was a fire what would I do, if there was a tornado where would I go, etc but not to the point of paranoia.

It seems to me that the people who have survived the "Madman With A Gun" situations are the ones who kept moving and did not stand still or try to hide.

David

Eric Joyce
06-15-2010, 01:08 PM
Thanks for the reply. I would imagine that there are various other martial training schools that have similar methods, although it sounds like you have a good one. Anything worthwhile to share (with the emphasis being that this is an Internet forum and this is no replacement for hands on training) from your training? Beyond the good advice of run to safety or cover, that is. :)

Hi Mark,

I am sure there are some schools that do some of these things in one way or another. The schools I encountered didn't do a whole lot of scenario type training. Not that they didn't want to, I just don't think it was their main focus, plus a lot of teachers didn't know where to start or have the experience to create scenarios to play with. It's not horribly difficult, but it takes some planning. Here are some things I can share with you:

Adrenaline Dump -- In all drills and scenario testing we push ourselves to the limit and learn how to move through that uncomfortable feeling of being frozen or "turtling up". First we exhaust ourselves to the point of collapse with combative drills, and then we begin the attacks…MANY attacks of all types. The philosophy is that you won't be so alert and fresh all the time so it's better to practice at your worst condition, working past fear and exhaustion. I have witnessed first hand a gentleman in our class that was a high ranking karateka that froze up under an attack. Not that he couldn't defend himself, he just wasn't used to training that particular way and that adrenaline dump locked him up bad.

Multiple attackers -- This is one that woke me up. I was used to the multiple attacker scenarios in Aikido and to me at the time; I thought that was pretty intense. I tried to replicate that same scenario and basically had my ass handed to me. This isn't a fault of Aikido, but of me. There is something to be said about 3 guys in bullet man suits all coming at you that make it a humbling experience. I felt like I was being attacked by robots.lol.

Verbal Escalation/De-escalation -- It's amazing how the verbal banter that goes back and forth before a fight can be scary and crippling. You get that "Oh crap!" feeling. We did drills where the verbal dialogue would increase in intensity (arms flying, cussing, in your face woofing, sometimes a shove to the chest or slap to the face). The key is to learn proper distance (maai) keeping the hands at the ready position…not fists shown, but more non-threatening open hand position and learn what to say to de-escalate the situation quickly.

Environment Awareness -- In the past, I was used to the quiet confines of the dojo. In my Krav Maga training the environment was ever changing. We would use loud music, shouting, turn the lights off, smoke machine, people crowding or running around…all to overload and put stress on the senses and how to navigate and deal with those situations. Sometimes we would train outside, in regular clothes, in alleys, etc. Sometimes we would blind fold each other, tie one or both arms up, just to keep things interesting. I laughed at first of the blindfold thing like it was some Jean Claude Van Damme training, but it was mentioned that women sometimes are tied up and blindfolded and thrown into trunks of cars to be taken to a secluded are to be either raped or murdered or both. That put it all in perspective for me.

I hope that helps a little bit. I just try to expose myself to different methods of training and scenarios that I may find myself in. You never know what situation you will find yourself in. By the way, running is a good strategy too :)

lbb
06-15-2010, 03:53 PM
I respect your opinion and I too once shared your viewpoint. I mean what are the odds right? However, my viewpoint was due to the fact that I did not want to admit that I truly wouldn't know what to do and that the training I received did not address those potential realities. Basically, I was scared to admit I wasn't prepared and brushed it off.

Understood, that is your POV. For myself, my training also doesn't address the possibility that someone might trample me to death with a herd of circus ponies. I'm not concerned about that either, but it's not because I'm scared to admit that I'm not prepared for the circus ponies. See, I just admitted it: I am prepared neither for circus ponies nor for madmen wielding guns -- and I'm handling that inadequacy just fine.

In answer to the question of how I would train for such an eventuality, if I were to train for it...I have no idea. Madmen are by definition unpredictable, and they're also notorious for not being inspired by the standard set of motivators. They obsess about things that the ordinary person doesn't care about, and they aren't deterred by things that put the ordinary person off. If a madman armed with an easy-to-use and deadly distance weapon decides they want to get me, I suppose I'll be got.

C. David Henderson
06-15-2010, 05:12 PM
Ah, now that spring is here, the Circus Ponies are returning to Capistrano. Scary beasts.

gregstec
06-15-2010, 06:47 PM
So, what precautions or training or measures have you taken for that very rare occurrence of a madman with a gun? What suggestions do you have? Or do you play the odds since this is such an extremely rare event?

Zanshin :)

Ketsan
06-16-2010, 07:42 AM
From this link,
http://article.nationalreview.com/435971/gun-control-and-mass-murders/john-r-lott-jr?page=1

The article talks about gun control and mass murders in various areas around the world.

I'm removing the whole gun control debate from this thread. Don't bring it up at all. There will always be places where the public can't carry a gun. There will always be places where an insane person starts shooting. Just because someone *can* legally carry concealed doesn't mean that person will *always* be carrying a concealed gun.

So, what precautions or training or measures have you taken for that very rare occurrence of a madman with a gun? What suggestions do you have? Or do you play the odds since this is such an extremely rare event?

Same way I deal with an insanely good player on the paintball field. I find a nice safe position from which I am unlikely to be shot and I call in as much fire power as I possibly can.

Rabih Shanshiry
06-16-2010, 07:52 AM
Best precaution you can take, IMO, is to live the virtuous life. Be right with the people around, your family, and your Maker. Death will come when and how it will.

...rab

From this link,
http://article.nationalreview.com/435971/gun-control-and-mass-murders/john-r-lott-jr?page=1

The article talks about gun control and mass murders in various areas around the world.

I'm removing the whole gun control debate from this thread. Don't bring it up at all. There will always be places where the public can't carry a gun. There will always be places where an insane person starts shooting. Just because someone *can* legally carry concealed doesn't mean that person will *always* be carrying a concealed gun.

So, what precautions or training or measures have you taken for that very rare occurrence of a madman with a gun? What suggestions do you have? Or do you play the odds since this is such an extremely rare event?

Keith Larman
06-16-2010, 08:57 AM
Let's see... Since I spent the first part of my life in statistics and critiquing statistical studies... Sorry international friends, but I'm using US statistics. Your mileage may vary.

Causes of death in the US (2006 numbers, most recent #'s I could find). Total number of deaths: 2,426,264

Top 10 causes of death.

Heart disease: 631,636
Cancer: 559,888
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 137,119
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 124,583
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 121,599
Diabetes: 72,449
Alzheimer's disease: 72,432
Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,326
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 45,344
Septicemia: 34,234

Homicide didn't make the top 10, but it was 15th when I dug deeper. The number was 18,573 or about .8% of the total number of deaths. If you do the math and estimate 300 million people in the US, that's, let's see, carry the 2 if you learned new math, add 1 if not, ... Um...

0.0062% of the population.

Or... Someone is 34 times more likely to die of heart disease, 32 times more likely to die of cancer, and on and on.

Of course all this can be terribly skewed depending on socio-economic factors. Where you live, living conditions, etc. Poor neighborhoods have much higher rates while many middle class and higher suburbs are vastly lower.

So... My advice for training for surviving a gun attack is to train daily in interval sprinting. Learn to get up and run fast. Weave a lot too. Do this daily. The lighter you are the faster you can run and change direction too which makes it harder for a nutcase to hit you. Working on this every day or every other day will help develop better cardio-vascular fitness and may reduce cancer risk. So eat more veggies and fruit, less processed crap, and cut the processed carbs. If that can halve your risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer you will have done many, many times more good for your life expectancy. Then if you're healthier and thinner you can run away faster should someone come after you with a gun...

Okay, I am being facetious... But seriously, if one is going to be concerned with risks one should take some time to categorize the entire risk profile of life. Do you have those sandpaper traction stickers in your shower so you don't slip and fall? I'm all for training in the various things that are part of martial arts. I have had the honor of training with police, military and SWAT guys in gun takeaways and I really enjoyed the training. It is what we do studying martial arts. That's cool. But keep things in perspective.

Unfortunately I'll never look at circus ponies the same way again. So now my fears are possessed ventriloquist dummies, evil clowns, and circus ponies...

MM
06-16-2010, 09:55 AM
Okay, I am being facetious... But seriously, if one is going to be concerned with risks one should take some time to categorize the entire risk profile of life. Do you have those sandpaper traction stickers in your shower so you don't slip and fall? I'm all for training in the various things that are part of martial arts. I have had the honor of training with police, military and SWAT guys in gun takeaways and I really enjoyed the training. It is what we do studying martial arts. That's cool. But keep things in perspective.


Hi Keith,

First, thanks for taking the time to post. As I replied to Mary, playing the odds is a solid, viable answer. We do that every day driving a car. Or flying in a plane. But, the simple fact is that things happen. People win lotteries, people die in car wrecks, planes crash.

Just at a glance, at the Luby's Cafeteria massacre, a little over half of the people were either killed or wounded. All of them were psychologically affected. I would bet all of them that were there thought that something like this could never happen to them. The odds were extremely rare.

Things happen. And I really do get people's choice to play the odds, but please don't dismiss other peoples choices to take these rare events seriously.

There are all kinds of responses from run to safety to train seriously. There's more to it than just physical as there are psychological areas not yet addressed.

I think Mary summarized things fairly well in this:

Madmen are by definition unpredictable, and they're also notorious for not being inspired by the standard set of motivators. They obsess about things that the ordinary person doesn't care about, and they aren't deterred by things that put the ordinary person off.

Unfortunately, the Luby's Cafeteria massacre did happen. And others have, too, as shown by the article. I've lost track of the times that I've almost died/been on the brink of death/whatever you want to call it, and I think I got a bit lazy in my mental attitude. The article just hit some part of me, woke it up, refreshed my memory, what have you. If you aren't playing the odds, what would you do in relation to training physically, mentally, and emotionally?

lbb
06-16-2010, 10:58 AM
Unfortunately, the Luby's Cafeteria massacre did happen. And others have, too, as shown by the article. I've lost track of the times that I've almost died/been on the brink of death/whatever you want to call it, and I think I got a bit lazy in my mental attitude. The article just hit some part of me, woke it up, refreshed my memory, what have you. If you aren't playing the odds, what would you do in relation to training physically, mentally, and emotionally?

I'm curious as to what your own answer is. What can you do about a madman with a gun? You used the word "train seriously" -- okay, lay it on me. Just what does that look like? How do you "train seriously" for an attacker who is, by definition, unpredictable? How do you "train seriously" to deal with a distance weapon?

You say I'm "playing the odds". I'm not "playing" anything. I don't know what you mean by "training seriously" to deal with a madman with a gun, and you haven't said what you mean -- just that this article got you freaked out, more or less, and you feel the need to do something. Okay, I understand that...but what??? I don't see any sense in training for a self-defense scenario if I don't have some idea of what effective self-defense in that situation would be.

Eric Joyce
06-16-2010, 11:22 AM
Hi Keith,

First, thanks for taking the time to post. As I replied to Mary, playing the odds is a solid, viable answer. We do that every day driving a car. Or flying in a plane. But, the simple fact is that things happen. People win lotteries, people die in car wrecks, planes crash.

Just at a glance, at the Luby's Cafeteria massacre, a little over half of the people were either killed or wounded. All of them were psychologically affected. I would bet all of them that were there thought that something like this could never happen to them. The odds were extremely rare.

Things happen. And I really do get people's choice to play the odds, but please don't dismiss other peoples choices to take these rare events seriously.

There are all kinds of responses from run to safety to train seriously. There's more to it than just physical as there are psychological areas not yet addressed.

I think Mary summarized things fairly well in this:

Unfortunately, the Luby's Cafeteria massacre did happen. And others have, too, as shown by the article. I've lost track of the times that I've almost died/been on the brink of death/whatever you want to call it, and I think I got a bit lazy in my mental attitude. The article just hit some part of me, woke it up, refreshed my memory, what have you. If you aren't playing the odds, what would you do in relation to training physically, mentally, and emotionally?

Hi Mark,
I think you will find that most people do exactly what you said, play the odds and that is fine, to each is own. Most people that are in martial arts feel they are prepared enough for violent encounters, they don't dwell on the "what if" scenarios much or they do their chosen art for other reasons (historical, self defense, fun, exercise, etc.). There are others that take a different view on awareness and preparation based on the area they live in, the line of work they do or past experiences with violence that they do not want to be a victim. Again, to each his own.

I think it's good you ask these questions. Every martial artist should. Sometimes in our busy schedules, we can get lazy and very comfortable with our routines. I think it's important to constantly challenge ourselves mentally, emotionally and physically in our training in order to be prepared for those "what ifs". You may not account for every situation, but at least you know you did your best each day you trained. That's just me. There is a book I read many years ago that really resonated with me and one that I recommend. It's called Meditations on violence by R.A. Miller. A very good read and puts things into perspective, at least it did for me.

There is a phrase Latin phrase that came to mind after I read the article: Sic vis pacem, parabellum = If you want peace, prepare for war. Of course this can be interpreted in a number of ways, but for me it means I should always be aware and prepared, both physically and mentally so that I can walk in peace.to coin a phrase from a Krav Maga teacher.

By the way, I hope it doesn't sound like I am trying to sell Krav Maga to people here on the forum. This is not my intent. I am just sharing my experiences and information that I felt was relevant to the discussion.

Train hard, be safe.

Keith Larman
06-16-2010, 11:31 AM
Mark, it isn't "playing the odds" to understand relative risk. I do train in gun takeaways. I have even had conversations with my advanced kids about guns mostly with the advice of staying down, figuring out where it is coming from, and then getting the heck out of Dodge as soon as possible.

Today we can turn on the news and find stories of your "madmen" shooting up a building. Well, I was out about to go do my banking years ago when the North Hollywood shootout went down. I got down. I figured out where it was coming from. And as soon as possible I drove off. So are you training to deal with multiple gunmen wearing body armor armed with high powered assault rifles? The police themselves were out-gunned and actually went to a local gun store to "borrow" a bunch of better weapons.

Or do you train for the Columbine kids. Two kids seemingly randomly killing. Close together watching each others' backs.

Or is it the single crazy shooter walking through a restaurant?

Or is it the guy in the tower with a hunting rifle taking people out at 100 yards?

Most shootings are domestic violence. How do you prepare for that? But take the case of the late Phil Hartman. His crazy wife shoots him dead. Or drug violence. Or gang violence. Or drive-by's.

So if you can't tell I'm in agreement with Mary here. I don't see what you can prepare for. If you want to talk about preparing for emergencies and thinking clearly under stress, well, that's maybe a good start.

I have a good friend, retired police officer, who prefers to sit with his back to the wall at restaurants with a clear view of the door. He also looks through bank windows before he enters. Good habits, I guess, but he's also armed and fully trained on what to do and how to act. I picked up on his habit of looking into the back before entering once I realized how easy it is to do. Same when entering a fast food joint, etc. That's easy and makes sense.

But how am I going to disarm a guy 30 feet away with an AK47? If I'm armed as well, okay, get behind a concrete column and go for it I guess. That means range time. But... Lots of issues there.

Like I said, I've taught the kids to scatter. I've taught them to get away. But I'm not sure what else one can do in such an extreme scenario especially if you're talking about someone carrying an overwhelming force multiplier. So, yes, prepare by all means. I would guess that learning to deal with the adrenaline dump and all that related stuff will be important. But I also think you end up focusing on the one scenario that you will likely never face (hopefully) all at the expense of everything else.

MM
06-16-2010, 11:37 AM
I'm curious as to what your own answer is. What can you do about a madman with a gun? You used the word "train seriously" -- okay, lay it on me. Just what does that look like? How do you "train seriously" for an attacker who is, by definition, unpredictable? How do you "train seriously" to deal with a distance weapon?

You say I'm "playing the odds". I'm not "playing" anything. I don't know what you mean by "training seriously" to deal with a madman with a gun, and you haven't said what you mean -- just that this article got you freaked out, more or less, and you feel the need to do something. Okay, I understand that...but what??? I don't see any sense in training for a self-defense scenario if I don't have some idea of what effective self-defense in that situation would be.

Let me define "playing the odds" a bit better. Every time someone gets into a car to drive somewhere and doesn't use a seat belt, they are, as in gambling terms, playing the odds that they won't get into a serious accident and get seriously hurt.

"Playing the odds" means that the odds are sooo huge against something happening that it's statistically near zero. As Keith pointed out, the odds of being a part of something like what the article mentions are, well, near zero.

So, if you don't train at all for those kinds of situations, you're "playing the odds". Nothing wrong with that ... because you're part of the 1,000,000,000 and not the 1.

If you read Eric's response, it sounds like he took training seriously and found a place that covers quite a lot of ground in regards to chaotic situations. I'd say if you want to understand that kind of training, direct your questions to Eric or take the training.

And the article didn't freak me out, nor made me feel like I need to do something. It did make me think.


I don't see any sense in training for a self-defense scenario if I don't have some idea of what effective self-defense in that situation would be.

And thus, this thread was created.

MM
06-16-2010, 11:57 AM
So are you training to deal with multiple gunmen wearing body armor armed with high powered assault rifles? The police themselves were out-gunned and actually went to a local gun store to "borrow" a bunch of better weapons.

Or do you train for the Columbine kids. Two kids seemingly randomly killing. Close together watching each others' backs.

Or is it the single crazy shooter walking through a restaurant?

Or is it the guy in the tower with a hunting rifle taking people out at 100 yards?

Most shootings are domestic violence. How do you prepare for that? But take the case of the late Phil Hartman. His crazy wife shoots him dead. Or drug violence. Or gang violence. Or drive-by's.

So if you can't tell I'm in agreement with Mary here. I don't see what you can prepare for.


And that's the reason for the thread. Maybe someone does know or see ...


If you want to talk about preparing for emergencies and thinking clearly under stress, well, that's maybe a good start.



Like I said, I've taught the kids to scatter. I've taught them to get away. But I'm not sure what else one can do in such an extreme scenario especially if you're talking about someone carrying an overwhelming force multiplier. So, yes, prepare by all means. I would guess that learning to deal with the adrenaline dump and all that related stuff will be important. But I also think you end up focusing on the one scenario that you will likely never face (hopefully) all at the expense of everything else.

All good stuff. But the reason for threads like this is to *not* do what you say in your last sentence but yet have options if you want to do something.

Eric Joyce
06-16-2010, 01:31 PM
Like I said, I've taught the kids to scatter. I've taught them to get away. But I'm not sure what else one can do in such an extreme scenario especially if you're talking about someone carrying an overwhelming force multiplier. So, yes, prepare by all means. I would guess that learning to deal with the adrenaline dump and all that related stuff will be important. But I also think you end up focusing on the one scenario that you will likely never face (hopefully) all at the expense of everything else.

Hi Keith,

In the training I received, we mostly dealt with situations that were more "close quarters" scenarios. Examples: carjacking, gun to the back of the head while laying prostrate on the floor, a bank robbery scenario, airplane hijacking, etc. We did cover some basic defenses, such as learning to take cover, protecting your loved ones and some defensive shooting. This was just to get exposure and feel the experience of these situations. The rest of the material is way more advanced and more for law enforcement, military and security personal which deal with the situations you described. Granted, I will never be 100% prepared for every situation, but I will have some familiarity, which can make a difference in a split second.

Another big part, which you stated, is learning to deal with stress and adrenaline that occurs during a sudden violent & chaotic event. Constant practice and exposure to stress scenarios has helped me a lot over the years in understanding the debilitating effects on the body. A good article to read is Toby Threadgill's article on PCS. Great article if anyone is interested.

I don't think you end up focusing on just one scenario as you stated. You are exposed to a variety of situations and stress levels. Some more likely than others, but the key is experiencing those situations and learn how to deal with them, which I hope none of us would ever have to.

The story you shared about the police officer and the observations he makes are exactly some of the things I started to pick up on and be aware of, especially when I rode the train when I worked in downtown Chicago. Talk about zanshin to the extreme. Good discussion.

DonMagee
06-16-2010, 01:48 PM
I carry a gun and do my best to never go anywhere where I can not carry a gun. Above that I train to keep my gun in my possession and shoot well under stress.

If I see a madman shooting a gun, I'll try to take concealment/cover and shoot back.

Kevin Leavitt
06-16-2010, 05:31 PM
Obviously my thought/philosophy process runs in line with Keith's.

Funny thing is that I am getting ready to go to a very bad place were the odds are such that I need to carry weapons and employ them.

AND, all my training is geared around dealing with the various scenarios that I am likely to face or deal with. Anything from 300 meters down to close quarters battle.

I will be carrying weapons and prepared to use them 24/7.

Back here in the states...well I agree, how do you prepare to deal with two kids that randomly decide to open up on you?

I can't answer that question very well personally and given the odds of it happening, well I don't see any rationale sense in worrying about it 24/7 and still failing cause "i didn't see it coming".

YMMV of course, and I certainly respect someone else's opinions on it.

Personally I think budo training is more about living a good, proper and decent life. One in which you can be proud to have lived when you die at whatever moment that happens.

If it is on a plane with a hijacker, well hopefully I have the courage to do the right action...whatever that may be within the means I have available to me at the time.

I think budo is more about this that the literal preparation for martial success in a situation.

Keith Larman
06-17-2010, 12:12 AM
I think budo is more about this that the literal preparation for martial success in a situation.

Yah, what Kevin said... :)

Good post.

DonMagee
06-17-2010, 07:37 AM
I have a spare tire and tire tool in my car. I have never once had a flat tire.

I carry a leatherman on my belt. I can think of about maybe a dozen times I have needed it in the last few years.

I have a first aid kit and flare in my car. They have never been used in my life.

I have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen. I have never had a house fire.

In that same token, I see nothing unreasonable with carrying a small and effective hand gun on my person. Which is why I carry a Walther PPS 9mm every single day, even though I've never needed to shoot at a human being in my entire life.

lbb
06-17-2010, 08:02 AM
Let me define "playing the odds" a bit better. Every time someone gets into a car to drive somewhere and doesn't use a seat belt, they are, as in gambling terms, playing the odds that they won't get into a serious accident and get seriously hurt.

"Playing the odds" means that the odds are sooo huge against something happening that it's statistically near zero. As Keith pointed out, the odds of being a part of something like what the article mentions are, well, near zero.

So, if you don't train at all for those kinds of situations, you're "playing the odds". Nothing wrong with that ... because you're part of the 1,000,000,000 and not the 1.

But this is only part of a decent risk analysis. You need to consider:

The odds of something happening
The consequences if it does happen
The possibilities of trying to change the odds OR mitigate the consequences, and the cost of doing so

Your example of choosing to not wear a seatbelt is really quite dissimilar from not training to deal with a madman with a gun. Given that the odds are the same (I have no idea if they are -- I expect the likelihood of a car accident is quite a bit higher, but we'll say they're the same), and the consequences are the same (potentially fatal), it's a simple act to put on a seatbelt, and doing so greatly reduces the chances of serious consequences if there is an accident. It's not a "maybe" thing, it's a known effective fix, it's simple, easily accessible and trouble-free. Nothing similar exists for dealing with a madman with a gun.

MM
06-17-2010, 08:38 AM
but we'll say they're the same), and the consequences are the same (potentially fatal), it's a simple act to put on a seatbelt, and doing so greatly reduces the chances of serious consequences if there is an accident. It's not a "maybe" thing, it's a known effective fix, it's simple, easily accessible and trouble-free. Nothing similar exists for dealing with a madman with a gun.

For purposes of the example, let's say they're the same. You're right in that the seat belt is not a maybe thing. It's known because it has been researched, tested, etc. The point of this thread is to bring to light all the research, testing, etc for the madman with a gun.

As Eric pointed out, there is at least some training out there that covers aspects of that kind of situation. As Kevin pointed out, the military covers aspects of that situation. There is research out there for dealing with disturbed individuals. There are courses for that, too. I'm surprised no one has brought those up.


In that same token, I see nothing unreasonable with carrying a small and effective hand gun on my person. Which is why I carry a Walther PPS 9mm every single day, even though I've never needed to shoot at a human being in my entire life.

Sorry, Don, but we aren't covering armed situations. Carrying a gun is null and void in this thread. However, I do think that your point about not going anywhere where you can't carry a gun is valid. It also hinders you in that you won't be able to go to court, schools, universities, foreign countries, etc. While a valid solution, it doesn't cover this thread's topic of being in a place where guns are not allowed. Instances of madmen shooting in a school and court are documented.

Obviously my thought/philosophy process runs in line with Keith's.

Back here in the states...well I agree, how do you prepare to deal with two kids that randomly decide to open up on you?

I can't answer that question very well personally and given the odds of it happening, well I don't see any rationale sense in worrying about it 24/7 and still failing cause "i didn't see it coming".



I get what you and Keith are saying. Part of that is why this thread was created.

I think we get that it's a tough situation, it's unpredictable, and hard to see coming. I think we all get that "playing the odds" is a valid, solid answer because these kinds of things are extremely rare.

You, Keith, Mary and others can keep repeating it and I'll just keep agreeing with you. :) Solid answers.

Except, now turn your attention to your question and that questions is exactly why this thread is here...

"how do you prepare to deal with two kids that randomly decide to open up on you?"

Just because you, Keith, Mary, or even me for that matter can't answer that question, doesn't mean there are no answers.

Keith Larman
06-17-2010, 08:52 AM
I have a spare tire and tire tool in my car. I have never once had a flat tire.

I carry a leatherman on my belt. I can think of about maybe a dozen times I have needed it in the last few years.

I have a first aid kit and flare in my car. They have never been used in my life.

I have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen. I have never had a house fire.

In that same token, I see nothing unreasonable with carrying a small and effective hand gun on my person. Which is why I carry a Walther PPS 9mm every single day, even though I've never needed to shoot at a human being in my entire life.

Don, FWIW I don't have much problem with law abiding, sane, trained citizens carrying. Notice the caveats, but after that... No worries from me.

Keith Larman
06-17-2010, 09:04 AM
Well, as I said before, apart from generalized awareness training, training in high stress and then specialized (and quality) training in gun disarming which I think I've already covered as a sort of "high level" budo training in the first place, I'm not sure there's more you can do unless we start introducing specific contexts.

If you're an air marshal the madman with a gun takes on a specific, real context because the "domain of possibilities" tends to collapse into specific issues. It will also collapse to a different set of issues if you're a school teacher and need to worry about a school environment. And so on. So within specific contexts it starts to make sense. But then we've gotten away from the notion of the "random, unpredictable" madman with a gun in general. The very thing that makes that person so very dangerous is the unpredictability. So we close the circle and get back to being aware, etc.

One thing I asked my kids was this. I said .... "Let's assume you're walking alone down a dark street late at night. A guy starts walking directly toward you waving a stick. What do you do?"

I got all sorts of answers.

My reply was "What the heck are you doing by yourself out late at night walking down a dark street in the first place?"

That situation hopefully I can instill some common sense. And some awareness. Like looking through the bank window before entering just in case something bad is happening. Or just being aware in general before entering a business. But at some point "being prepared for anything" becomes "living a life of paranoia and fear". The former is a good think, I think, but the line between the the former and the latter is thick, wide and fuzzy. We all draw it differently. But I will say that some spend a lifetime with a bunker mentality only to die from slipping in the bathtub. Or having a tree fall on their bedroom while they sleep. Or a massive coronary due to the lifetime of stress.

So now I'll sit back and wait for other ideas. Lord knows if there are good ideas of specific things that one can do that are rational and reasonable, I'm all ears and willing to learn.

MM
06-17-2010, 09:19 AM
One thing I asked my kids was this. I said .... "Let's assume you're walking alone down a dark street late at night. A guy starts walking directly toward you waving a stick. What do you do?"

I got all sorts of answers.

My reply was "What the heck are you doing by yourself out late at night walking down a dark street in the first place?"


LOL! That was great.


So now I'll sit back and wait for other ideas. Lord knows if there are good ideas of specific things that one can do that are rational and reasonable, I'm all ears and willing to learn.

The idea (I'm borrowing the phrase) of "I didn't know that I didn't know" is something I keep in mind lately. And you summed things up nicely, so I put it in bold.

Thanks,
Mark

DonMagee
06-17-2010, 10:15 AM
Sorry, Don, but we aren't covering armed situations. Carrying a gun is null and void in this thread. However, I do think that your point about not going anywhere where you can't carry a gun is valid. It also hinders you in that you won't be able to go to court, schools, universities, foreign countries, etc. While a valid solution, it doesn't cover this thread's topic of being in a place where guns are not allowed. Instances of madmen shooting in a school and court are documented.


Well then, rather than training myself to run at a man shooting at me with some strange superhero hope of disarming him before he shoots me, I instead use that time to campaign for gun reform so I can carry in courts, schools, etc. Luckily for me, this is working. For example in many college campuses you can now indeed carry firearms (although it is still illegal in classrooms). It feels good to walk around the college where I work and see student signs supporting the right to carry.

I see this is a a valid form of defense. I can't hope to disarm an armed attacker with a gun unless I am either already standing right next to him and saw him coming or he is one hell of a horrible shot. That only leaves two options.

1) Run as fast as you can and hope you don't get shot.
2) Hide and hope you don't get found and shot.

I however have nothing else to add so I'll stop clogging up your thread.

lbb
06-17-2010, 10:35 AM
If we're only allowed our empty hands to deal with the madman with the gun, and our efforts to avoid or prevent the situation are irrelevant, then I've got nothing to say. I'll exit the thread too, with one parting thought: the three factors I cited above about risk assessment go double for risk prevention and management -- you just can't leave any of them out.

DonMagee
06-17-2010, 12:09 PM
I will say that I'm up for the challenge of anyone trying to disarm without weapons while I try to shoot them with an airsoft pistol.

I've had a few friends try. The results where a lot of people shot with airsoft pistols (which strangely are not soft at all).

Keith Larman
06-17-2010, 12:38 PM
Been there, done that, stings a lot... :)

Bottom line. If the gun is out, pray and you'd damned well either be *very* close if you're going to disarm or running away like a jackrabbit with epilepsy...

Eric Joyce
06-17-2010, 12:43 PM
I will say that I'm up for the challenge of anyone trying to disarm without weapons while I try to shoot them with an airsoft pistol.

I've had a few friends try. The results where a lot of people shot with airsoft pistols (which strangely are not soft at all).

Hi Don,

In addition to the hard, plastic handguns and rifles, we experimented with AirSoft pistols as well in learning how to disarm someone. It added a different level of stress to the situation. What I can say is that it can be done. There were a few times where it didn't work, but we were able to pull it off most of the time. Of course it depends a lot on how close the person is to you. It takes some very diligent practice.

Question, in your use of the Air Soft gun, did you ever practice the 21 foot rule drill?

Eric Joyce
06-17-2010, 12:46 PM
Been there, done that, stings a lot... :)

Bottom line. If the gun is out, pray and you'd damned well either be *very* close if you're going to disarm or running away like a jackrabbit with epilepsy...

LOL...Exactly, get out of Dodge.

Kevin Leavitt
06-17-2010, 08:36 PM
Keith Larman wrote:

If you're an air marshal the madman with a gun takes on a specific, real context because the "domain of possibilities" tends to collapse into specific issues. It will also collapse to a different set of issues if you're a school teacher and need to worry about a school environment. And so on. So within specific contexts it starts to make sense. But then we've gotten away from the notion of the "random, unpredictable" madman with a gun in general. The very thing that makes that person so very dangerous is the unpredictability. So we close the circle and get back to being aware, etc.


This is my thoughts on this as well. I am highly trained in the context of the military. Right now, I carry an M4 all decked out with 4 different site systems as well as a M9, I have access to Close Air Support etc.

I also have parameters I work within in doing my duties. Many of them are unknown to a degree, but as a soldier, in a combat zone, I am also under a different set of conditions and have clues, intel etc in order to react.

And yes, I even have to prepare to deal with being ambushed or surprised by say two bad guys that get the jump on me.

Well in that context, I just might die.

If I live, well I fall back on my training which I have spent the better part of a long time and recently the last two months on honing my reflexive skills in combative techniques. I spend hours in the hot sun shooting my weapons in many different ways under many different conditions. I practice fighting through the fire fight, transitioning to my systems, jammed weapons drills, empty handed combatives etc.

So, I think this is how you adequately prepare to deal with this situation. You train for it as if your life depended on it if you honestly believe it is important to you to do so.

Otherwise, you simply spend the time enjoying what life you do have with your family and friends and hope that you made the right decisions in your life and have led a good life.

Kevin Leavitt
06-17-2010, 08:42 PM
Hi Don,

In addition to the hard, plastic handguns and rifles, we experimented with AirSoft pistols as well in learning how to disarm someone. It added a different level of stress to the situation. What I can say is that it can be done. There were a few times where it didn't work, but we were able to pull it off most of the time. Of course it depends a lot on how close the person is to you. It takes some very diligent practice.

Question, in your use of the Air Soft gun, did you ever practice the 21 foot rule drill?

I don't so much believe in disarming them as much as I do rendering them incapable of using the weapon. Might seem like semantics, but I think that controlling the weapon system is really the goal and not disarming them. You can control the weapon system without disarming them, and you can render them incapable of not using it with out disarming them.

Essentially if you have a lethal weapon and you are fighting me, I am not really concerned so much with getting that lethal weapon out of your hands as much as I am concerned with keeping you from using it...what ever that may take. Lethal force, plowing you into a wall, busting you up...whatever. Once I have control...then maybe I will worry about the long term of goal of disarming.

Of course, use of force criteria apply and force must be appropriate.

However, again, I think the paradigm that says concentrate on disarming can get you in trouble.

Rule of 21...yea it is a bitch and everyone should understand it if they are dealing with weapons.

Eric Joyce
06-17-2010, 09:45 PM
I don't so much believe in disarming them as much as I do rendering them incapable of using the weapon. Might seem like semantics, but I think that controlling the weapon system is really the goal and not disarming them. You can control the weapon system without disarming them, and you can render them incapable of not using it with out disarming them.

Essentially if you have a lethal weapon and you are fighting me, I am not really concerned so much with getting that lethal weapon out of your hands as much as I am concerned with keeping you from using it...what ever that may take. Lethal force, plowing you into a wall, busting you up...whatever. Once I have control...then maybe I will worry about the long term of goal of disarming.

Of course, use of force criteria apply and force must be appropriate.

However, again, I think the paradigm that says concentrate on disarming can get you in trouble.

Rule of 21...yea it is a bitch and everyone should understand it if they are dealing with weapons.

Yeah that 21 rule is tough. We did some drills with a 9MM with blanks (not holstered or anything, just hand and gun at the side) and we did the "tap and rack" before firing at the charging target. It's amazing how much distance the attacker can cover.

If I may provide a little bit more info on the topic of disarms. The over-arching principle in Krav Maga's defenses against handgun threats is this: Once you are out of the line of fire, do not go back in. Every technique prescribes to this basic principle. In addition, all Krav Maga techniques adhere to the following four stages:

1. Redirect the Line of Fire
2. Control the Weapon
3. Counterattack
4. Disarm

You may or may not go through all of these stages, depending on the situation. This just gives us the breakdown so that we can practice it over and over again to the point it becomes automatic, fast and smooth. Then we add stress scenarios and start amping it up a bit.

It's good stuff to practice. Just my 2 cents.

DonMagee
06-18-2010, 08:17 AM
In this case however, the mad man will be shooting before you. This is different then a guy going for his gun in an argument where you could cover the ground before he starts shooting.

This is a madman situation. This means a guy who walks into your popeyes chicken holding a rifle and just starts blasting people. I've never seen a martial arts demo that starts with the attacker already shooting at you.

In the cases where I've played with airsoft, the following 'tests' were done.

1) Standoff where the attacker already has gun pointed at you.
2) Standoff where the attacker will be drawing his gun and shooting at you.
3) You are in a fist fight and the attacker may or may not have a knife or gun.

In case one, the defender was always shot. In case two, the defender was shot or got into a grappling situation to control the gun arm. In case three the defender was shot more often then not.

Aikibu
06-18-2010, 04:58 PM
I take none. extremely rare that I can imagine such conditions that would warrant me to carry a gun or that I can imagine how I might mitigate such an occurrence anyway as a "civil" member of society.

Besides, I really want to live in a world in which I can go about my day to day life and not have to worry about bad guys all the time. I get enough of that at work.

I support people's right to bear arms, it is just not something that I personally feel inclined to do on a daily basis. If things get bad enough then I will, i want that option and choice to be mine.

IMM, the logic that says I should carry a gun to mitigate risk, means that I'd also have to wear a protective helmet all the time since I have had more head injuries from running into tree branches, signs, and falling on ice than I have been attacked by bad guys in America.

I also like the logic that requires hunters to wear blaze orange to protect themselves. That is okay, but if we were really concerned about their lives we should also require them to carry defibulators as each fall more hunters die from cardiac arrest while hunting than from being shot! (sorry can't find the reference right now).

I love statistics and logic!

Me too...To me preparing for a "Mad Man with a Gun." with is like preparing for Godzilla to walk out of Santa Monica Bay and destroy LA.

William Hazen

Kevin Leavitt
06-18-2010, 05:05 PM
Yeah that 21 rule is tough. We did some drills with a 9MM with blanks (not holstered or anything, just hand and gun at the side) and we did the "tap and rack" before firing at the charging target. It's amazing how much distance the attacker can cover.

If I may provide a little bit more info on the topic of disarms. The over-arching principle in Krav Maga's defenses against handgun threats is this: Once you are out of the line of fire, do not go back in. Every technique prescribes to this basic principle. In addition, all Krav Maga techniques adhere to the following four stages:

1. Redirect the Line of Fire
2. Control the Weapon
3. Counterattack
4. Disarm

You may or may not go through all of these stages, depending on the situation. This just gives us the breakdown so that we can practice it over and over again to the point it becomes automatic, fast and smooth. Then we add stress scenarios and start amping it up a bit.

It's good stuff to practice. Just my 2 cents.

Good stuff. No issues with your 4 stages.

dps
06-19-2010, 10:56 AM
Keith Larman wrote:
I have access to Close Air Support etc.

I am jealous. :drool:

In this case however, the mad man will be shooting before you. This is different then a guy going for his gun in an argument where you could cover the ground before he starts shooting.

This is a madman situation. This means a guy who walks into your popeyes chicken holding a rifle and just starts blasting people. I've never seen a martial arts demo that starts with the attacker already shooting at you.

If you survive the initial attack then it is time for Close Air Support.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZFFQcXDl4o&feature=related

Buck
06-19-2010, 04:38 PM
Me too...To me preparing for a "Mad Man with a Gun." with is like preparing for Godzilla to walk out of Santa Monica Bay and destroy LA.

William Hazen

Just to chime in, per the link, I too feel this way. There are other more applicable situation in my life that I have to be concerned with. A madman with a gun opening fire on crowd is low on my list. Yes, the possibility exists, as there has been some infrequent incidences. It is more likely most people will have to face an armed robber. Or a disgruntled individual shoots who shoots co-workers ,friends, family or, rivals, sadly. Yes, often there are unrelated people in those incidences who are shot, unfortunately. Even then compared to the population size and infrequence it is pretty rare. That is not something we need to worry about.

Because if some like that does happen the victims are taken by surprise, unprepared, and untrained to deal with the situation in a split second. And the shooter usually is at a healthily distance from the victims. Making is difficult to disarm the shoot, who is also on a heighten offensive emotional state All of which provides the shooters with a greater advantage over those he is victimizing.

I may be in a place or a situation as described. But, I do believe, as any good common self-defense class will tell you is to be aware and avoid such situations and environments when ever possible. If I proceed with that line of thinking on top of the astronomical odds of such an encounter happening I am comfortable in saying I will be more likely killed in a plane crash, train wreck, or a robby gone bad.

I don't take any precautions for a madman shooter, as the fact being such precautions will not be effective if the even ever happens. Basically, the scenario of madman shoot is he will A) snip me as we have seen in several cases. Like the shooting event upon an elementary school that inspired the song "I don't like Mondays." Or those infamous random freeway shootings that scared the hell out of people in the Eastern USA. Oh, and like the pivotal University of Austin clock tower sniper. 2) Be heavily armed with high power weapons, note the plural in weapons. Having enough ammo to fend off an army. Like the McDonalds shooter years back, or the Columbine shooters and all the other school shooters, including Austin. All of which the shooter(s) take unsuspecting victims by surprise, dolling out war like chaos and carnage in seconds, way before anyone knows what is going on, or can stop it.

Madmen and women plan and prepare their surprise attacks to maximize the victim count, to have the edge and advantage, and that is hard to fight and a rare event. Such a thing isn't a daily occurrence. There are more things in life that will occur more often and frequently than being a victim of such an incident of a madman with a gun. Evens that I have more control over and can avoid. Why throw another log on the pile of worries and concerns of living. If it is going to happen it will, and it will be very fast, within seconds, and by surprise where you have little or no advantage to control the situation. Simply, either your will be killed, wounded, or neither.

If you're killed or wounded you won't see it coming, and it happens before you can take your next blink. If you survive, in those first few seconds long enough to counter you will probably be out gunned. The shooter (not a sniper) will probably have an illegal high powered automatic weapon. So you will have to have a personality or professional training and experience to make your one shot count. Per a sniper, if you survive, it would be very difficult to disarm, much less spot the sniper's position without special training and equipment, and consider you will be pinned down. Like the sniper California and Texas snipers did to their targets. Or you will not have a chance to locate the sniper to counter the attack, like the Freeway snipers.

To answer the questions posted, I don't fret over being faced with the event of a madman with a gun. I am more concerned with being involved in a multi-car pile up than a madman with a gun.

lbb
06-19-2010, 05:32 PM
Me too...To me preparing for a "Mad Man with a Gun." with is like preparing for Godzilla to walk out of Santa Monica Bay and destroy LA.

Come on, dude...in the real Godzilla movies he always goes after Tokyo or New York.

Aikibu
06-19-2010, 08:18 PM
Come on, dude...in the real Godzilla movies he always goes after Tokyo or New York.

I swear We're NEXT!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH GOOOOOJIRA! :D

William Hazen

Aikibu
06-19-2010, 08:24 PM
On a sadder note The Madman With A Gun scenario just occurred in San Bernadino this afternoon... Some dude walked into a fast food place with two pistols...shot a family of four while they were eating and then turned one gun on himself.

Having Martial Awareness or being skilled in gun takeaways do not come into play...

Just another dude exercising his screwed up view of the 2nd amendment :(

William Hazen

Buck
06-19-2010, 09:29 PM
http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/police-say-gunman-who-shot-4-in-calif-dies-1.2037696

http://news.lalate.com/2010/06/19/del-taco-shooting-in-san-bernardino/

It seems that this is a domestic violence case. Sadly, this does happen all too often.

lbb
06-20-2010, 05:14 AM
It seems that this is a domestic violence case.

It was a targeted killing with an unknown motive as of yet, one in which the killer and victims knew each other. The killer had a prior criminal record including violent crimes. While you may argue that anyone who kills someone else in a non-self-defense situation fits the definition of "mad", this does seem to be different from the "madman with a gun" scenario originally hypothesized.

dps
06-20-2010, 10:03 AM
The list of attacks in the OP's article range from a motive to kill specific people to unknown motive to kill unknown people.

So I think the killings at the Del Taco restaurant in San Bernardino are within the parameters of this discussion.

The defining factors are,

"The attacks occur in public places where civilians are banned from carrying guns".

The attacks include four or more people.

Has anyone heard anything from the news media about "Madwoman With A Gun".

Has anyone heard anything about "Madman or Madwoman With A Gun" being stopped before they killed and how that was accomplished?

Would that make the news?

David

Buck
06-20-2010, 11:19 AM
It was a targeted killing with an unknown motive as of yet, one in which the killer and victims knew each other. The killer had a prior criminal record including violent crimes. While you may argue that anyone who kills someone else in a non-self-defense situation fits the definition of "mad", this does seem to be different from the "madman with a gun" scenario originally hypothesized.

FWIW, in a nutshell, I posted that post because I too felt it was a sad and tragic event which William brought to our attention. Second, I didn't call the event a domestic violence act, the media did and that is why I provided the links in the post. More importantly, Mark being the framer of the thread, we need to ask him if domestic violence is a component to his questions. Lastly, am really not sure if it is important to discuss how domestic violence does or doesn't fit. The question is asking how we plan or prepare for a "very rare" occurring act of violence by a "madman with a gun."

With that in mind, I figured domestic violence wasn't part of the questions because his original post states, "...for that very rare occurrence of a madman with a gun?" And the quote from the article by Lott, dealing with gun laws that Mark used. Domestic violence happens more frequently that say a "madman with a gun" like the horrific sniping done by Brenda Ann Spencer killing elementary children and two adults. This such event is what I understood the original post's questions to be. But I will welcome any changes to that by Mark, as he is the original framer of the questions.

Aikibu
06-20-2010, 11:42 AM
It was a targeted killing with an unknown motive as of yet, one in which the killer and victims knew each other. The killer had a prior criminal record including violent crimes. While you may argue that anyone who kills someone else in a non-self-defense situation fits the definition of "mad", this does seem to be different from the "madman with a gun" scenario originally hypothesized.

You are correct in my opinion. :) I originally posted this with the scant information that was available at the time....However my point is training for this scenario when it escalates to someone surprising you in public by whipping out a pistol and blasting away is pointless. The moment the gun is drawn and fired you're in God's hands. There are somethings you can do to raise your odds of survival to be sure...and I not really sure if Martial Arts will apply though Martial Resolve and the will to live may help.

William Hazen

Buck
06-20-2010, 12:15 PM
Now that I think about it, If domestic violence is specifically a part of the question, that a madman with a gun is different, Mary like you said, then my answer would be to the original question: To prepare etc. for a domestic violence by a madman (madman in my use implies both sexes) with a gun is much more complexed and complicated than I personally can go into beyond becoming trained by professionals and experts in I.D.ing and acting upon the signs of potential D.V. and how to avoid it. Of course martial arts training, self-defense , and combat fighting skills could help. The choice is up to the individual to choose the best fit. Because I personally don't have to be concerned about D.V. I don't plan for it. FWIW.

lbb
06-20-2010, 07:00 PM
Buck, you keep using the phrase "domestic violence". I didn't use that phrase because I'm not sure it makes sense in this situation, particularly not when it is used as a synonym for an abusive relationship (which has not been established or AFAIK even suggested in this case). The "nut with a grudge" scenario (which is what this looks like so far) is a bit different, and self-defense tactics if you have any advance warning are different too.

I heard a lot about this kind of situation from my brother, who worked in HR for a state agency that dealt with some rather volatile clients who sometimes developed grudges. They had a very well-rehearsed script for dealing with threats, suggestions of violence, "funny feelings", etc. It was really educational. What it basically boiled down to was that this agency was on the lookout for threats of violence (including very subtle ones) and took them very seriously.

Buck
06-20-2010, 08:57 PM
Buck, you keep using the phrase "domestic violence". I didn't use that phrase because I'm not sure it makes sense in this situation, particularly not when it is used as a synonym for an abusive relationship (which has not been established or AFAIK even suggested in this case). The "nut with a grudge" scenario (which is what this looks like so far) is a bit different, and self-defense tactics if you have any advance warning are different too.

I heard a lot about this kind of situation from my brother, who worked in HR for a state agency that dealt with some rather volatile clients who sometimes developed grudges. They had a very well-rehearsed script for dealing with threats, suggestions of violence, "funny feelings", etc. It was really educational. What it basically boiled down to was that this agency was on the lookout for threats of violence (including very subtle ones) and took them very seriously.

Initially, it was the media reporting it as domestic violence, I was just saying the media is reporting it as D.V. I guess the media used D.V. to differentiate from those cases where you have someone not knowing the victims at all and random shooting people in line of sight. That is my guess. You will have to check with the journalists who wrote the news of the shooting to be certain. Personally, like I said before, I wasn't bringing in D.V. into the argument. It was your comment to me that I starting thinking about it. Honestly, I thought you where bringing in D.V. into the argument-no criticism about that from me- thinking about it, I offered my answer. :) D.V. does broaden the argument. I am fine with it. But, essential, I never considered bringing D.V. into the argument. I was just making an observation of a horrible and sad act of violence, unattached to the thread.

Per your post, I agree about self-defense tactics etc. I was saying the same thing in my other post. And, I am not sure either if it the phrase D.v. makes or doesn't make sense. Like I said before, is it really necessary to the thread? I don't know. Mark defined clearly the perimeters for the discussion in the opening post. And I implied I he can call the shots in defining "madman." I said this to avoid possible thread drift into D.V.

I guess we simply may have crossed lines sort of speak in our discussions, or I missed something in your posts and got confused. The reason doesn't matter, but now that has been cleared up, let us get back to the thread. :)

lbb
06-20-2010, 09:09 PM
I guess to differentiate from those cases where you have someone not knowing the victims at all and random shooting people in line of sight.

So any case in which the shooter knows the intended victim is "domestic violence"? Obviously not. Equally obviously, not all cases where the shooter does not know the intended victim are "random".

Buck
06-20-2010, 09:52 PM
So any case in which the shooter knows the intended victim is "domestic violence"? Obviously not. Equally obviously, not all cases where the shooter does not know the intended victim are "random".

I don't know? That was my best guess for why the media reported the shooting as domestic violence. And like I said, your questions are best directed at those reporters. Cause I have no idea why they see it as domestic violence. All I can do is guess.

I personally feel, I don't need to prepare for a madman (which implies women) with a gun. To prevent redundancy I will not repeat my reasons. But I will add, I hope that I will never have to. I hope such incidents cease but that is unrealistic. Therefore, I hope they will never stop being "very rare." I hope as well, there will be no copy cats in relation to this recent horrible incident in California.

lbb
06-21-2010, 07:31 AM
I don't know? That was my best guess for why the media reported the shooting as domestic violence. And like I said, your questions are best directed at those reporters.
Well, no, they're really not, because supposedly this is a discussion thread about how to handle the "madman with a gun" scenario, and you're mistaking what I've said for a hairsplitting digression on terminology. My point is a very simple one, and this is the last time I'll attempt to make it: in order to train to defend yourself, you must first take note of meaningful distinctions between different self-defense scenarios. See? If you are attacked by someone who wants your wallet, that is a different situation from being attacked by a drunk sports fan who doesn't like the cap you're wearing, and both of those situations are different from a disgruntled employee who's after you because you denied him a promotion. Their intent is different, their preparation is different, and what you have to deal with is different. Don't you think your response should also be different -- and, since we're talking about training for self-defense, don't you think your preparation must also be different?

Well, maybe you don't. I have no idea what you're thinking. But using one term, whether it be "domestic violence" or "banana", to discuss all attacks between family members, is a failure to make a meaningful distinction. We human beings use language, and when we make note of distinctions, that tends to be reflected in the language we use. If I talk about "a line of cars", either I don't notice any distinctions between the cars, or I discard them as meaningless. The distinctions aren't meaningless in this case.

MM
06-21-2010, 08:08 AM
Well, no, they're really not, because supposedly this is a discussion thread about how to handle the "madman with a gun" scenario, and you're mistaking what I've said for a hairsplitting digression on terminology. My point is a very simple one, and this is the last time I'll attempt to make it: in order to train to defend yourself, you must first take note of meaningful distinctions between different self-defense scenarios. See? If you are attacked by someone who wants your wallet, that is a different situation from being attacked by a drunk sports fan who doesn't like the cap you're wearing, and both of those situations are different from a disgruntled employee who's after you because you denied him a promotion. Their intent is different, their preparation is different, and what you have to deal with is different. Don't you think your response should also be different -- and, since we're talking about training for self-defense, don't you think your preparation must also be different?


Haven't been following the discussion involving Mr. Burgess. However, to reiterate the thread focus and distinction, you are correct (I added the underlines just for extra emphasis).

Thank you,
Mark

DonMagee
06-21-2010, 08:14 AM
The list of attacks in the OP's article range from a motive to kill specific people to unknown motive to kill unknown people.

So I think the killings at the Del Taco restaurant in San Bernardino are within the parameters of this discussion.

The defining factors are,

"The attacks occur in public places where civilians are banned from carrying guns".

The attacks include four or more people.

Has anyone heard anything from the news media about "Madwoman With A Gun".

Has anyone heard anything about "Madman or Madwoman With A Gun" being stopped before they killed and how that was accomplished?

Would that make the news?

David

http://www.ktvn.com/Global/story.asp?S=8378732
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum51/39816.html
http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=43109
http://www.examiner.com/x-2206-Cleveland-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m1d6-Armed-citizen-stops-rampage-Better-not-report-that
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OthWr/principal&gun.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_James_Church_Massacre
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1446
http://johnrlott.tripod.com/2005/02/concealed-handgum-permit-holders.html

There are a few I found with a quick google.

Buck
06-21-2010, 11:19 AM
Well, no, they're really not, because supposedly this is a discussion thread about how to handle the "madman with a gun" scenario, and you're mistaking what I've said for a hairsplitting digression on terminology. My point is a very simple one, and this is the last time I'll attempt to make it: in order to train to defend yourself, you must first take note of meaningful distinctions between different self-defense scenarios. See? If you are attacked by someone who wants your wallet, that is a different situation from being attacked by a drunk sports fan who doesn't like the cap you're wearing, and both of those situations are different from a disgruntled employee who's after you because you denied him a promotion. Their intent is different, their preparation is different, and what you have to deal with is different. Don't you think your response should also be different -- and, since we're talking about training for self-defense, don't you think your preparation must also be different?

Well, maybe you don't. I have no idea what you're thinking. But using one term, whether it be "domestic violence" or "banana", to discuss all attacks between family members, is a failure to make a meaningful distinction. We human beings use language, and when we make note of distinctions, that tends to be reflected in the language we use. If I talk about "a line of cars", either I don't notice any distinctions between the cars, or I discard them as meaningless. The distinctions aren't meaningless in this case.

In all kindness and sincerity, I am sorry, this has become an issue of great importance to you, as it is an important issue. As a person who values your opinion, let me clarify all I have said for the purpose of illustrating your points better. The follow comments have spanned across my many posts which I will put here for easy of reading.

a) I agree with you,
b) can't give you and answer concerning how domestic violence does or doesn't play in the thread, ask Mark.
c) per your other concerns addressing domestic violence, I was only repeating what the news reports said, best to ask the reporters those questions to get the answers as I don't have them.
d) I don't know if Mark intended to include domestic violence, if he did my answer to his question then would be I don't prepare at all. And, I don't know if domestic violence is or isn't important to the thread.
e) most of all, the topic of domestic violence isn't something I am an expert at, thus be able to discuss in this sense.

Also I don't know why the reporters called that sad and horrible act an act of domestic violence, and others not. All I did was give you my best guess cause you asked so passionately. I call that horrible and sad event senseless,unnecessary, heart wrenching.

In my book it was simply nothing more than murder like any other murder. What makes it even more sad, is that a family was attack where members died at the hands of someone they knew. Because that hits home stronger than per se a stranger attacking a family. Or a hidden freeway sniper, or someone walking into a building and randomly like Brenda Ann Spencer or that like what happened at Columbine. Or why someone breaks into a home killing everyone inside (apparently not so uncommon). I don't know any of the whys of any of these horrible and deranged acts. I lump such violent acts into one thing, called murder. How labels are parsed out, how each is defined separate from another is something I have control over or is something am I interested in doing.

For me, the horrible act of murder be it from someone the victims know tends to hit home harder that if it was by a stranger. I don't think anyone wants to be killed by a madman whether they know him/her or not, whether the police or the news stamps it as domestic violence, or a random shooting, or what have you. Even more so how it is being argued here, I think has little importance to the fact that people are murdered sitting down at a meal, and the whole family was shoot, which included children. As most of us, we can put ourselves in that situation, as we have or are a part of a family, and that makes us feel very scared and vulnerable. More so because it isn't a random act. There are no odds in place when someone you know (and all its complexity) points a gun at you and your family and pulls the trigger. That is based on the feeling of all those I have talked to about this, and my own personal "what if" feelings.

Mary, I respect your concerns and I have no contentions or opinion concerning them. You're not getting any argument from me. :)

Personally, I don't know the constructs of how this would or wouldn't play in the discussion. Simply, those are my feelings as described here in this post. I am not able to determine what definitions and labels should be placed on someone killing their family members, people they know or randomly shooting anyone in their line of sight( they have to be mentally ill imo to do so). I don't have the knowledge or expertise, or interest to do so, that isn't what concerns me. All I know and concerned about is it was a sad, tragic, horrific,senseless act of murder. My heart goes out to the surviving victims and their friends and loved ones.

I am sorry to repeat this, but for the sake of the thread, I don't plan for any one, regardless if I know them or not, shooting me. It is too difficult and too many variable to cover. You can't sanely live your life worrying about who is going to shoot you. Unless, you see the signs, or are threaten, etc. by people you know or don't know. As far as I know, I have no strong indications of that happening in my life, to warrant concern.

But on the other hand, and now that I think about it, what is more likely is some people you may come across gets really unreasonable, irrational, becomes emotionally unbalanced over a comment, an opinion, a verbal disagreement, a gesture, a look, or simply by your appearance. And as a result, not matter what you do to reverse that situation wants to kill you and all members of your family. That is the risk we all take when we have contact with people. That is something I can plan, prepare and act on. Not that is will many any difference with someone who is mentally ill.

Mary, I hope this has helped lay things out in addressing your concerns that I am not debating you or contesting your comments or views in relation to the constructs of domestic violence in relation to this thread. I hear ya, I agree with you, I understand where your points are coming from as you articulated them very well. I respect all that. And I am glad you have posted to me, as your content in this thread brings up some very good questions, points, and presents very good information that I am sure will help others.

In all sincerity, :)

Buck
06-21-2010, 11:58 AM
http://www.ktvn.com/Global/story.asp?S=8378732
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum51/39816.html
http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=43109
http://www.examiner.com/x-2206-Cleveland-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m1d6-Armed-citizen-stops-rampage-Better-not-report-that
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OthWr/principal&gun.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_James_Church_Massacre
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1446
http://johnrlott.tripod.com/2005/02/concealed-handgum-permit-holders.html

There are a few I found with a quick google.

Maybe a madman (including women) isn't as "very rare" as Mark states in his original post, as seen in the links above. I thought he was referring to events like Columbine, the sniper in the above link, and alike. Therefore, if such occurrences are less rare than presented, it looks like the best planning and preparations involve a gun. Frankly, my Aikido or other martial arts waza training isn't going to stop a bullet. It may take a gun a way in the right circumstance or situation. But, we never know if that is the circumstances or situations we will be in.

lbb
06-21-2010, 08:48 PM
In all kindness and sincerity, I am sorry, this has become an issue of great importance to you, as it is an important issue.

As is often the case when stating what someone else believes, you're wrong. You mean well, but you're wrong. That's the danger in making statements about what other people believe.

As a person who values your opinion, let me clarify all I have said for the purpose of illustrating your points better. The follow comments have spanned across my many posts which I will put here for easy of reading.

a) I agree with you,
b) can't give you and answer concerning how domestic violence does or doesn't play in the thread, ask Mark.
c) per your other concerns addressing domestic violence, I was only repeating what the news reports said, best to ask the reporters those questions to get the answers as I don't have them.
d) I don't know if Mark intended to include domestic violence, if he did my answer to his question then would be I don't prepare at all. And, I don't know if domestic violence is or isn't important to the thread.
e) most of all, the topic of domestic violence isn't something I am an expert at, thus be able to discuss in this sense.

Again, I don't know why you keep bringing it up with me. I didn't say or ask anything about domestic violence. That's not the issue that I've addressed. But I've explained this, I think very clearly, several times, and it's not getting across to you, so it's time for me to just give up.

Buck
06-21-2010, 10:23 PM
As is often the case when stating what someone else believes, you're wrong. You mean well, but you're wrong. That's the danger in making statements about what other people believe.


Thanks for pointing that out, and clearing up any confusion I have on this matter. I will take note of your advice. :)

Again, I don't know why you keep bringing it up with me. I didn't say or ask anything about domestic violence. That's not the issue that I've addressed. But I've explained this, I think very clearly, several times, and it's not getting across to you, so it's time for me to just give up.

Point well taken. Will make future note of it. Thanks. :)

Buck
06-21-2010, 10:45 PM
As the events of the day unfolded in a NY Court room I wondered really how concerned should we be about a madman with a gun.

dps
06-24-2010, 01:19 AM
Maybe a madman (including women) isn't as "very rare" as Mark states in his original post, as seen in the links above. I thought he was referring to events like Columbine, the sniper in the above link, and alike. Therefore, if such occurrences are less rare than presented, it looks like the best planning and preparations involve a gun. Frankly, my Aikido or other martial arts waza training isn't going to stop a bullet. It may take a gun a way in the right circumstance or situation. But, we never know if that is the circumstances or situations we will be in.

Yes, you are right Buck.
It seems the madmen were prevented from or stopped from further killing when someone with a gun(s) showed up.

David

C. David Henderson
06-25-2010, 12:04 PM
This article seems germane: http://www.santafenewmexican.com/Local%20News/Pecos-shootout--like-OK-Corral--

Although the assault turned into a gunfight (ah, camping in the Pecos), there was a moment at the beginning when the attacker's gun failed to discharge. In that particular opening, a weapon take-away seems conceivable. Also, in this particular situation, while the campers were able to protect themselves because one of them had a gun, the opportunity to do so was provided by the same opening.

Obviously, each situation will be unique, but in this one there was a moment when the kinds of training people have been talking about could have helped. It also tends to fit David's description above. And it easily might have ended very badly for the campers -- bad enough as it was -- but for a moment of grace.

Eric Joyce
06-25-2010, 05:11 PM
This article seems germane: http://www.santafenewmexican.com/Local%20News/Pecos-shootout--like-OK-Corral--

Although the assault turned into a gunfight (ah, camping in the Pecos), there was a moment at the beginning when the attacker's gun failed to discharge. In that particular opening, a weapon take-away seems conceivable. Also, in this particular situation, while the campers were able to protect themselves because one of them had a gun, the opportunity to do so was provided by the same opening.

Obviously, each situation will be unique, but in this one there was a moment when the kinds of training people have been talking about could have helped. It also tends to fit David's description above. And it easily might have ended very badly for the campers -- bad enough as it was -- but for a moment of grace.

Interesting story and I really feel for that family. Just goes to show you that something like this can happen anytime and anywhere, even in remote areas where you may feel relatively safe. Crazy people out there man.