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Bruce Baker
04-20-2002, 02:27 PM
How many of you have attended a Ki seminar and made the Ki/chi energy ball?

If you didn't, why do you think you didn't?

Jonathan
04-20-2002, 09:32 PM
A ki ball? Sounds like something off Dragonball Z. I have never made a ki ball. However, I have made a cheeseball...Does that count? What exactly is a ki ball? :confused:

IrimiTom
04-20-2002, 10:27 PM
Bruce, I'm just wondering, since you didn't explain what a "Ki ball" is, how many people who didn't make one (and therefore probably don't know what it is) do you think know why they didn't do one?

Andy
04-20-2002, 11:40 PM
Now I fully understand. Bruce was actually present on these boards before when his name was "Tim Greene".

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1313

Amendes
04-21-2002, 01:34 AM
I recall certian parts about "The Art Of Kiai" in a recent book I read "Secrets Of The Samaurai" Also I have a real story at the end. Forgive the lengthy post.

"Kiai" is a compound of Ki and Ai.
Ki meaning mind and Ai the contraction of the verb awasu, signifying "to unite", As this combination suggests, it denotes a condition in which two mindes are united into one in such a manner that the stronger controls the weaker.


There is a certian legend regarding a samurai who was walking through the woods. He was surrounded with wolves. But he kept walking so aware, stable and potentialy explosive that the wolves were frozen with fear.

Other episodes recall men lying in ambush only to confront a victim who, simply by gazing at them, terrorized then so effectively that they were immobolized.

So there is an art of Kiai, but very little is known about it.

One real life expample of Ki that I can think of is my own masters story.

One day master was in the market with his grandfater holding his grandfathers hand and in the other hand his cane.

(the grandfather was very well known respected grandmaster martial artist may I add)

there was a comotion. It seemed a man stole a television set and was trying to run away from the shop keeper.

Since this was in the 60s he realized that the television was too big and heavy to make it. So he had to put it down to get away.
However he did not go far. The shop keeper caught up to the television and started to look at it to make sure it was ok.

The theif came up behind the shop keeper and pulled out a knife. The shop keeper was unaware of the thief behind him.

Just before the theif could stab him my master said that he could feel his grandfathers hand tighen around his hand.
And then his grandfather let out a Ki.

Everyone froze. The theif stoped and put away his knife and left immediatly.

PeterR
04-21-2002, 02:33 AM
Hi Amendes;

I think a lot of the examples you used could better be described as Zanshin (presence). From wolves to thieves, they thrive on fear. In the cases you mentioned the aggressors (actual or potential) sensed this was not victim.

Prefer to read Ki as spirit in this context but not enough to quibble - mind works ok also.

However I see Kiai as much more explosive than Zanshin and as I am sure either of the Chuck's will be quick to point out (they've done so before) sound does not have to be involved.

Your story about your sensei's grandfather comes closest to kiai but even there the shout probably just brought attention to a man with a reputation. Zanshin once again.

As per Ki balls - please someone name a respected Budo (not Japanese manga) that actually refers to this concept. My Japanese sensei doesn't cut it - there are a lot of fools and charletons here also. I would want to know what he practices.

Erik
04-21-2002, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
As per Ki balls - please someone name a respected Budo (not Japanese manga) that actually refers to this concept. My Japanese sensei doesn't cut it - there are a lot of fools and charletons here also. I would want to know what he practices.

There's this rockin' fellow:

http://www.ryokukai.com/Images/ki%20pics/image9.jpg

He can cure cancer too.

Ghost Fox
04-21-2002, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
How many of you have attended a Ki seminar and made the Ki/chi energy ball?

If you didn't, why do you think you didn't?

I have seen the exercise before, and I have practice the exercise a few times. I don't know what the official name is but I understand what you are trying to say.

My aikijitsu sensei had me sit in a horse stance with my hands in front (like holding a barrell) and imagine a ball of energy there. He also made me bring my hands together (but not touching) then move them apart. Imagining a ball of ki expanding a contracting.

I have heard of the exercise done in tai chi chuan, and some African martial arts.

It is also a practice in Hermetic Sciences.

Keep posting Bruce. I'll try my best to harmonize with your intentions.

:triangle: :circle: :square:

Ghost Fox
04-21-2002, 02:26 PM
P.S. I was never too good at making ki balls. I know some people who have a lot more psychic potential than I do and find it quite easy.

I guess I just have to practice harder at it.

Kat.C
04-21-2002, 02:40 PM
O.K. I don't even really know what ki is but I'm curious as to the point of making a ki ball. What is the purpose of doing this?

guest1234
04-21-2002, 02:42 PM
I think some of this may be sensing either heat or (perhaps) some other form of energy from your hands, for instance, if you relax and close your eyes, you can bring your fingers almost to touching, or come close to touching someone else's hand, without touching. William Reed Sensei, in one of his books on Ki, (or I think, they are at work and I am at home) describes how you can make a cat purr by stroking near her body, but not actually touching her (I love doing this with my cats to amaze my friends :D ).

Anyway, I think perhaps one would get better at it not so much by trying harder, but by relaxing more and letting yourself be sensitive to what you are feeling.

Jorx
04-21-2002, 04:33 PM
This is WAAAAYYYY too much of Mortal Kombat for me again. Am I the only one who is yet quite satisfied with the usual train-train-train thing? With the saying of Saito sensei that "Don't worry much about the philosophy. Train daily with bokken and morotetori kokyo-nage and you will understand the secrets Aikido." Am I the only one who thinks that at first I must master all the things QUITE REAL to my mind and then maybe I should move into another territories such as making ki-balls or ki-healing? Isn't this what Aikido is about? Isn't this WHY we start with slow and boring ai-hanmi grab attacks not with flashy roundhouse kicks and punches? What will we do next? Start teaching levitation to beginners? Turning invisible? Some claim that O'Sensei mastered those two things but I don't think one should pay attention to KI-BALLS if he doesn't feel that he is the perfect master of timing and skill. And I don't think that even mr. Baker is content enough to think he is.
Many of You folks like to babble about development and research of chi, pressure points etc etc. Why do we wan't to be magicians? We western ppl haven't grown up in that culture! Maybe we would get a glimpse into that after doing and researching the art for 30-40-more years. But I think that in the beginning we would be much more successful if we didn't want learn "magic" but proper angles, REAL anatomy, gravity, reaction times, physiology, autosuggestion, distances etc etc etc. PHYSICS and PSYCHOLOGY as in the way as they are strong and understandable in OUR culture. If we master those, maybe then peek into other possibilities. But nooo... most of us want to chi our unbendable arms into the faces of admirers forgetting that it's quite impossible to overcome the strength of mass and triceps only with biceps muscle.:grr:

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
Riveta Sportsclub

P.S. I'm sorry... that was quite an angry post. I think it is interesting to peek into these mystical things but putting an ephasis to these is rather a handicap I think. And somehow I have the feeling that many MA authorities dead and alive from different cultures would agree with me on that. I'm not a chi-sceptic, no. But I think one might get lost very easily when walking that way.

P.P.S. (I love doing this with my cats to amaze my friends ).
Colleen - Purring is a sign of irritation positive OR negative. And it is psychological. So there's nothing amazing in cats purring when you just put their hand close to them.

Napoleon
04-21-2002, 06:09 PM
I'm not sure if it counts, but I can shoot fire from my fists at will. No, really. I just cry 'Haduken!' and out it comes.

guest1234
04-21-2002, 07:02 PM
Hi Jorgen,

Don't get so excitable! I think if you try to remember the conversations on pressure points, you'll recall I am not a believer in them:D I am, however, trying to show what the people who 'feel' ki may be experiencing, and that it has nothing to do with psychic ability. Surely you have 'felt' someone standing close behind you before? I am relating what is seen as magic to what is real in our lives. It sounds like you are in an Iwama dojo, so I am not surprised about the intensity of your response, but turn it down a notch or two, OK?

Cats purr for a variety of reasons, and it can be anticipation of pleasure (or actual pleasure if they are sitting in your lap when you stroke the air above them). But even if they cannot see what your hand is doing, nor are then in your lap, they purr as you stroke the air above them. Since they don't normally purr with a breeze I don't think it is the movement of air that causes the purr, so it more likely is they feel the warmth from your hand somehow. Again, I don't have scientific research behind it, but it may be the warmth (as I said in my earlier post) that folks are sensing with their hands. You do need some sensitivity to feel this, more easily felt if you are relaxed vs tense, and so not necessarily easy to get from an Iwama viewpoint, which is fine. Perhaps one reason Saito Sensei says not to worry about it now, it will come later, is eventually in Iwama-style, as you learn the angles and stop using so much muscle, you relax more and hence feel more. I don't know, I've only done a little Iwama-style Aikido.

Some schools teach angles early, sensitivity late. Others sensitivity early, angles late. But eventually, it all gets taught. I know reversals are often a big deal to the Iwama folks I know, I've never seen Saito Sensei teach them, but I am betting it is the same as the techniques themselves: if person does 'A' then you do 'B'. If he does 'C' then you do 'D'... eventually, you will need to be able to feel what your partner is doing, be sensitive to his intentions early if your reversal is to be done cleanly and most easily (I think).

Jorx
04-22-2002, 05:20 AM
Hello.. hello...

I try not to get so exited next time. And Colleen I wasn't in none of the points I made referring specifically to You:)

Anyhow - just for the record... if You had finished my post You could've read that ESTONIAN AIKIKAI stands under my name. Which is I don't train Iwama style but Aikikai.

And I think You got me a bit wrong. I will try to explain what I meant for You and others.

I just wanted to point out that things that many of you speak of as you are putting a great emphasis on that those things are beyond your comprehension. So you don't know EXACTLY WHAT you are doing. Therefore one should at first master the things which are understandable by ppl in this culture - as I was pointing out a strong side of science. It seems quite pointless to me when one does speak of chi as a great master but hasn't researched the points of physics and psychology (so mine is not the usual train-train-train Iwama viewpoint;) ). We can always ADD the mystical aspect of chi but we shouldn't start from it.

Have you ever considered the fact that best yonkyo circle radius is the length of uke's forearm? Ever considered the fact that the more far is one's point in one's body from his mass center (which surprise-surprise is generally the same spot as hara) the easier is to take the balance? Do you know how high one's heart rate and adrenaline flow must go before getting "tunnel vision"? Have you thought on the fact that "Two physical bodies cannot exist in the same confined space in the same time-space continuum." Sounds very Aiki to me.

I just wanted to point out that many questions asked in Aikido have very logical answers. And I just think that it is more efficient to be familiar with those logical answers before moving into what maybe be called as an uncharted area for us western ppl. Be the master of your five senses before using and depending on 6th, 7th etc. Master the study of launching plain simple kinethic energy on someones jaw and sitting on someones joints (crack) in proper angles and THEN try hurling chi balls wherever you want to hurl them. I think your progress in both sides will be way faster.

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
Riveta Sportsclub

P.S. To Colleen - as I said - positive or negative irritation. And ever considered the fact that they might HEAR you being there:)?

Magnus
04-22-2002, 06:25 AM
Hi,
thanx for a very interesting thread. I think Jorgen is making some important points here. As a 6th kyu I admit that I sometimes long for "the secret knowledge of ki" (whatever it is) and "discovering a 6th sense" (partly because I'm interested in philosophy and Zen) rather than making sure that the steps are correct while performing irimi-nage, and I really have to struggle to have patience and practice "crawling" when my legs are eager to walk.

Before I attended some sessions with the superb aikidoka Mutsuko Minegishi (6th dan - one of the highest graded women in the world) I thought O-senseis talk about "becoming a universe" was rather esoteric. As she demonstrated a technique based on this principle however, I realized that this can be interpreted as a physical description about how you use centrifugal force to spin uke around your own static center.

And still, at the final session (for mostly beginners, and even some youngsters) she talked a lot about energy, and how the flow of energy concentrated in the palm even could have healing qualities (!). I do not understand what she meant by everything she said, but doesn't just the fact that she was talking about energy flow (which I see related to "ki" and as something "unwestern" and "unscientific" - PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong!) suggest that "ki" is and should be something we should try to be aware of all the way along the road (not just after shodan and higher)?

Just wanted to share some thoughts...:)

/Magnus

aiki_what
04-22-2002, 07:21 AM
Never made Ki Balls. But I have a great recipe for Swedish Meat Balls.

Greg Jennings
04-22-2002, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by ca
It sounds like you are in an Iwama dojo, so I am not surprised about the intensity of your response, but turn it down a notch or two, OK?


Colleen, could you elaborate on this?

Best Regards,

Bruce Baker
04-22-2002, 08:57 AM
Although I try to keep abreast of Dragon Ball Z so I have something to talk about with my kids as to what is fantasy and what is fact or reality, sometimes my comments to those fantastic responses in threads comes to a very old thought ...

Who is your doctor?

I want to get some of those drugs you are on?

Just kidding ... 1960s humor from long ago.

Anyway.

There are a number of massage and healing people who are able to generate heat from their hands, and that heat can be generated between the hands in the form of a ball.

When I went to a seminar last year, and we worked on various forms of rooting, energy exchange in techniques because of positive and negative energy in men and women, we also tried to form projection of this energy into a ball.

NOT unlike the magic of Static electricity to stick a baloon on the ceiling, some people did get enough energy going to create a very warm feeling between their hands. What was very neat was .... the teacher, couple of students (including myself because of some experience with this in the 1970s) were able to take this energy out from between the hands so there was almost no warmth, then put it back?

Hypnotism? Maybe, but too many skeptics from different karate dojos were in the room for that.

How does this affect basic Aikido training or what you learn to advance in Aikido ?

Those of you who are beginning, it might be too much. Those of you who are trying to figure out where scientific truth begins and a cartoons steal truth to turn it into fantasy (so you can teach your children from knowledge) ... maybe it brings you just a little closer to finding that ki/chi is not a myth, a fantasy or a miracle but it has parameters within science and the construction of the human bodys abilitys all along?
*********************************************
(there does a line help those of you stuck in on single frame of mind?)

Anger? Some anger in reaction to question ... interesting response? What is the thought process behind that anger? Find out.

I thought this was an open forum for questions and postulation of answers?

Believe me when I say, I know all about false messiah's and the blind faith of followers ... I have rained on too many parades by following a different path and saying "I told you so .." to blind angry Transcendental Meditation, Hari Krishna, and other types organizations which fell apart after a few years?

So, when I bring something to your attention, it is not by something that magically happened last month or last year, but over a lifetime of searching and bits of evidence pointing to a particular solution?
********************************************
KI/Chi ball?

Well, this is not something that happens without meditation, getting used to using your inner energy, or even with only studying the physical aspect of martial arts?

It comes with time, practice, and teacher or teachers who can give you pointers how to control projection and how to seal these points when you are done.

Believe it or not, it also relates to pressure points, even though you may never have the need to study or use this with your style of Aikido, there it is. Sealing the chi/ki points is almost the same as reviving pressure points ... never mind those of you with skeptical responses ... I was just trying to make you aware why you rub a strike or hit to your body to relieve the pain, even though it does a bit more than that.

******************************************

In closing:

You know ... I have never seen another continent or been to other countries besides the USA, Canada, or some resort islands, but I know there are other people, and other countries with people that somehow travel to the New York/Philadelphia area? I have met too many of them, learned as much if not more about their countrys from them as in books, or history/learning channel specials?

Also, I know first hand from charlatans, because I have watched more than my share fall from popularity to obscurity over time?

The Chi/Ki ball is not a new idea. Although bringing to notice to some of you, it might be new? As Far AS THROWING IT ... get real!

You would have to be able to move object with your mind to create that kind of energy, and no one has yet to come forward with a hint to that claim?

So please respond if you have tried this, or seen it with someone else, or talked about it with you teachers.

Although we have our normal Aikido practice in class, I think this forum should go beyond that into areas of interest, question, and maybe it will enlighten some of the dull repetition of Aikido class with new insight? There is lot of depth to MA's?

Believe it or not, we are leaving the industrial age to enter the scientific age of humanity? How about using some of that science to get into these strange things of Martial arts to see if they are a magicians trick, or indeed, a scientific phenonmenon?

:cool:

Andy
04-22-2002, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Jorx
Anyhow - just for the record... if You had finished my post You could've read that ESTONIAN AIKIKAI stands under my name. Which is I don't train Iwama style but Aikikai.
Saito sensei is directly aligned with Aikikai Hombu Dojo, making his style Aikikai.

As for the rest of the thread, this stuff is right up there with reiki and magnetic healing as far as bunk goes.

Erik
04-22-2002, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Andy
Saito sensei is directly aligned with Aikikai Hombu Dojo, making his style Aikikai.

As for the rest of the thread, this stuff is right up there with reiki and magnetic healing as far as bunk goes.

Don't forget polarity therapy.

Steve
04-22-2002, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
SNIP

NOT unlike the magic of Static electricity to stick a baloon on the ceiling, some people did get enough energy going to create a very warm feeling between their hands. What was very neat was .... the teacher, couple of students (including myself because of some experience with this in the 1970s) were able to take this energy out from between the hands so there was almost no warmth, then put it back?
SNIP
:cool:

What do you mean by "take this energy out from between the hands ... then put it back"? Did you make a visible object that you placed on the mat -- or maybe suspended in mid air -- in front of you? Was this energy something that the others could see? A ball of light? Flames? A 9 volt battery? What? Or are you saying that your hands were warm, then cold, then warm again? Perhaps you could post a picture.

Jorx
04-22-2002, 04:13 PM
Couple of short notices, I'll make a longer post later.

1. I didn't want to say that things as pressure points, reiki, ki in general was magic. I wanted to point out that many of those "westeners" who are so eager to learn those want to BE magicians and LEARN magical things.

2. Saito is still the head of Iwama isn't he? Anyhow that doesn't matter. If you would know the current state of Aikido in Estonia you would laugh over such question as "what kind of style of Aikido you train?"

3. Creating a ball of heat with hands - at least thinking on this metaphore, no, not possible.

4. Positive and negative energy? What KIND of energy is it?

5. Chi has parameters of science. Good. Then let's keep this concept in these parameters. Physiology, timing, reaction, psychology, physics etc - they cover this concept from various aspects. Yet there's no proof for the mystical ENERGY. (Of course as I said we didn't know electricity was there or magnetic fields couple of hundreds of years ago.)

6. I don't consider myself a chi-sceptic, nor very narrow minded:P (who would) Another thing what I wanted to point out is that these kinds of ideas turn Aikido into some sort of fairy tale in eyes of ppl who know nothing about it and who are yet beginners/haven't thought on these things. Back to wanting to BE magicians.

7. Just a nice explanation one of my fellow sempai gave about the universe and doing techniques: Consider the size of the Universe. Now consider the size of yourself and the length and effort of the movement you have to do to sucessfully make the throw. Ridiculously small and easy that is.

So is our discussion... but who cares... let's continue.

Jorgen
Estonian Whateverthatstyleis
Riveta Sportsclub

P.S. - Anger - not exactly but why anyway? Of course because someone rocks my cozy point of view that's why;)

William
04-23-2002, 02:43 AM
I was a bit surprised to see the comment, 'the saying of Saito sensei that "Don't worry much about the philosophy. Train daily with bokken and morotetori kokyo-nage and you will understand the secrets Aikido."' being read IMHO as, Don't pay any attention to the philosophy.

To my mind the philosophy of Aikido is central to my practice of Aikido. I think that people are all to quick to forget that O'Sensei was also a famous philosopher, and that at the core of Aikido is a very profound philosophy. You can practice Aikido without the philosophy and still benefit, and if the philosophy bothers you don't stress it (which is my reading of the above quote), but I don't think that O'Sensei ever meant Aikido to be just another form of combat.

As for Ki Balls,I was making those before I ever started Aikido. If the word Ki gives you issues, simply call it a more western, rationalist term, Energy. Any biochemist will tell you that we generate large amounts of biochemical energy, and that many of the basic Ki techniques are just training yourself to discern this more clearly (much like training someone as a wine taster).

Changing the term and adding a rationalist explanation doesn't change the facts though, and does make you appear a little shallow. Its like claiming that America didn't really exist until Europeans 'discovered' it :)

PeterR
04-23-2002, 04:38 AM
Originally posted by William
I was a bit surprised to see the comment, 'the saying of Saito sensei that "Don't worry much about the philosophy. Train daily with bokken and morotetori kokyo-nage and you will understand the secrets Aikido."' being read IMHO as, Don't pay any attention to the philosophy.

Well lets just say famous amoung those who practice Aikido. Still you are right that it is doubtful Saito sensei was talking about a total exclusion of philosophy.

What he probably was discouraging was an over emphasis on same to the detriment of hard training. The whole point of Budo is that the physical training brings you to self realization.

Jorx
04-23-2002, 05:10 AM
We started with making chi-balls... now we're talking about excluding the philosophy... what a wonderful thing these forums are.

I guess noone really gets what anyone wants to say here (mr. Baker has pointed that out already in couple of previous threads)

And about America being not there - to Europeans it wasn't therefore they couldn't take much advatage of it and guess what... the native's didn't know Europe was there either... maybe "energy" doesn't know we are here... oh this is getting way tooo weird already.

One thing is philosophy anonother is metaphysics alright?

The thing with I meant with the quote of Saito sensei wasn't so much about excluding philosophy but about learning everything through what is already VERY there. The non-violence philosophy, the unity, the Aiki - it's in the techniques isn't it?

And about any biochemist telling me about generating large amounts of energy - sure... we eat and we s*** and we build our body cells etc etc. And we generate heat when moving. And there are small electrical charges in the nervesystem.

AND AGAIN - (please read this then you actually might get me - those who want of course) I DIDN'T WANT to point out chi wasn't there I DIDN'T WANT to point out that we should replace this concept with rationalist terms. WHAT I WANTED TO POINT OUT was that it would be more efficient if we considered these rational terms FIRST and THEN move to the "uncharted territories". Especially this goes for the ones who begin. Their progress will be way faster when they can use concepts they already know.

ANOTHER THING I wanted to point out (I didn't say mr. Baker had this attitude but I've seen it so much elsewhere) is that so many who put an emphasis on the spiritual and mystical part they can get lost very easily (look, I can make Chi-balls!, look I can Chi my unbendable arm, I feel the unity with the Universe when I do mokuso!). I've seen such attitudes - and I think this is as far from the real philosophy and real mysticism in Aikido as it gets.

Use the things which are already natural to you. Use the knowledge you already have.

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
Riveta Sportsclub

Bruce Baker
04-23-2002, 06:41 AM
It is my understanding ...

Saito sensei is the protector of Iwama, while

Hikitsuchi sensei is the spiritual head of Iwama.

Could one of you fellows in Japan confirm this, please?
-------------------------------------------
Meanwhile....

I am thinking of taking up the flat earth credo, like many of the crowd.

If you can't see it, it don't exist!

Yep'ers, them thar things just ain't so.

Even that thar Aikido is hype-no-tyzim.

YEP-yep-yep.
________________________________________________________________________________

Ouch! That kind of thinking hurts my head.

Back to real Aikido.

Stop using KI! This ain't Dragon Ball Z!

Eight out of ten posts say it doesn't exist, so it must be true!

(If we could just figure out how to light this energy so the human eye could see it, we could make a fortune! Talk shows! World tour! Baby! Maybe even them far away lands. Holland, Estonia, Arizonia, Kansas, Andy Russoland, even Hollywood!)

Humor ... another trait of good Aikido.

There is nothing so dangerous as a sensei who starts you laughing then sends you into a throw?

nikonl
04-23-2002, 12:26 PM
Jorgen: Isnt this fairy tale wonderful that you wouldn't want it to end? :) :D

akiy
04-23-2002, 12:35 PM
I wrote the following a little bit over a year ago in these Forums:

I remember a story told by George Simcox sensei who was at the dinner table with Koichi Tohei sensei when a reporter asked Tohei sensei if he could move (if I remember correctly) a salt shaker across the table with his "ki." Tohei sensei smiled and said, "Why, of course!" Tohei sensei then reached out with his hand, picked up the salt shaker, and put it down across the table.

-- Jun

nikonl
04-23-2002, 12:52 PM
IMHO, i think ki is not that mystical as it sounds. It's only the many wonderful things it can do that makes it sound so mystical and amazing. I believe(i might be wrong), we all have our ki when we 1st have our 1st breath when we were borned. And we somehow 'lost touch' with it as we grow up. And now we are merely finding it back and finding what we can do with it(we were juz using it to cry when we were borned).

Hope everyone gets what i mean. :)

Its juz what i think from what i have learnt.

Jonathan
04-23-2002, 12:59 PM
I was training with a long time tai chi chuan practitioner (thirty years) at an aikido seminar who told me that I had strong chi. I laughed in surprise and told her that I was just a strong guy (I used to do a lot of weightlifting) and that was what she was feeling. She stared at me with a peculiar look on her face and then smiled and said, "I have been doing tai chi long enough to know chi when I feel it." Until that moment I'd had no idea that I had "strong chi" (and I'm still somewhat doubtful), but apparently it was evidenced in my aikido. And I didn't have to make a single chi ball. :D

Practice, practice, practice.

Erik
04-23-2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by akiy
I remember a story told by George Simcox sensei who was at the dinner table with Koichi Tohei sensei when a reporter asked Tohei sensei if he could move (if I remember correctly) a salt shaker across the table with his "ki." Tohei sensei smiled and said, "Why, of course!" Tohei sensei then reached out with his hand, picked up the salt shaker, and put it down across the table.

Yes, but Tohei is also the same guy who is part of the heavy duty warpage of the unbendable arm. Then there are the stories in his books about him massaging winning slot machines, standing up in the trenches during the war and the "ki healing" work he's doing. It may be that Tohei is very pragmatic but when you add all of that together it's not hard to see why people take the leap to Dragon Z balls.

Originally posted by William
As for Ki Balls,I was making those before I ever started Aikido. If the word Ki gives you issues, simply call it a more western, rationalist term, Energy. Any biochemist will tell you that we generate large amounts of biochemical energy, and that many of the basic Ki techniques are just training yourself to discern this more clearly (much like training someone as a wine taster).

Hi William. A biochemist wanted me to ask you a couple of questions. Which textbooks talk about ki or about being aware of biomechanical energy. Any references as to who documented your assertion, particularly in regards to being aware of biochemical energy. He was also curious if you knew who the leading researchers were in the field regarding your assertion (which admittedly you might be able to glean off the net). For my own sake, I would be curious to hear your working definition of biochemical energy.

Changing the term and adding a rationalist explanation doesn't change the facts though, and does make you appear a little shallow. Its like claiming that America didn't really exist until Europeans 'discovered' it.

You are quite correct, adding big words doesn't change the facts. It's a little bit like claiming that bigfoot exists because we found the skeleton of a Neanderthal. One doesn't lead to the other, and it can leave some folks appearing a little bit shallow.

William
04-24-2002, 02:27 AM
"Hi William. A biochemist wanted me to ask you a couple of questions. Which textbooks talk about ki or about being aware of biomechanical energy."

I must admit, no text book, but rather a friend of mine who is currently studying for his Doctorate in BioChemistry. When I posed him the question and asked if Ki was explicable in terms of Western Science he responded in the affirmative, and explained it in terms of most efficient utilisation of mechanical energy, heightened states of neurological awareness, and the body's own bioelectrical fields. I may not have 100% understood everything he was saying, but the western science can explain most of the common usages of Ki (e.g. seemingly supernatural awareness of attackers, ability to move seemingly impossibly large loads easily, and so forth).

I have confidence that in time Western science will be able to explain many other of the seemingly impossible feats that Ki facilitates.

What vexes me is that there are vidoes out there, and many people have even been priviliged enough to witness (or even experience) the application of Ki techniques first hand, and they still persist in claiming that it doesn't exist.

Ki is just as mystical as our ability to think rationally, or our ability to move our limbs by the power of thought. Everything is mystical, but with the triumph of rationalism in Western society the wonderful and mystical has been rationalised.

Now we come across Aikido, which has preserved that sense of the mystical and wonderful in the mundane world, and some people feel obliged to go about tearing it down until they feel comforitable (and some would argue, ultimately unhappy) again.

"WHAT I WANTED TO POINT OUT was that it would be more efficient if we considered these rational terms FIRST and THEN move to the "uncharted territories". Especially this goes for the ones who begin. Their progress will be way faster when they can use concepts they already know."

Ouch! Ouch! Enough caps already ;) . I can see where you are going, but I must disagree. To use a very simple example, when you were in grade 1 your teacher told you, There are NO negative numbers. Some would argue it was necessary to simplify and limit the model in order to teach, but I know that to this day I feel that I my teacher betrayed my trust by not admitting the model was incorrect. This has occurred many time, particularly at university, where models were simplified to the point of Untruth, and I always felt annoyed. Dump me in the deep end any day of the week, allow me to be humble and admit, I don't understand, but don't lie to me.

My Aikido Sensei never forced the Ki concept on us, he always explained it in more western or rationalist terms, but when asked directly he never denied that Ki existed, he merely said that he didn't possess sufficient skill to show us examples beyound those he'd already shown. I always admired his honesty, and respected him more for it.

PeterR
04-24-2002, 04:16 AM
Hi William;

I've had a Ph.D. in Biochemistry for about 15 years and been doing Aikido in Japan and elsewhere for a reasonable stretch. Had some great conversations with everything from acupunturists to neo-shintoist priests.

I too was going through a stage trying to understand Ki in scientific terms and right in the middle of that one of the segments of a Japanese Aikido text I was involved in translating (which is now available) clarified everything.

Kenji Tomiki explained that there were various powers involved in Aikido. Power of strength, power of movement, breath power and the more mystical Ki. The confusion in the western mind, and I may add that of many Japanese, is that Ki is often used to explain the combination of all of these concepts. Now some guy sitting in seiza blowing away an attacker without touching him (I have seen the video) is Ki if you believe what he's doing is for real, but what component of an Aikido technique is Ki? I suggest that Ki is in fact not a force that can be projected.

Ki is life force. As a biochemist we break life down into its component parts but if we consider life as being greater than the sum of its parts - well that little bit extra is Ki. Can we use it, can we manipulate it, maybe. Science has not been able to demonstrate its existance which by the way is as detrimental to the argument fo Ki as it is possibly a shortcoming of science. What science has been able to show is the downright fraud perpetrated in the name of Ki.

To make it short - I don't dismiss Ki but am very careful about what is claimed.

guest1234
04-24-2002, 06:56 AM
Jorgen,

None of the three Iwama style Aikido dojos I've trained in had 'Iwama' in their name. Two dojos I've trained in had "Aikikai" in their name, but were not actually affiliated with the main Aikikai organization. To me, dojo names don't mean much. I thought you might be from an Iwama dojo based on your quote of Saito Sensei within the first few sentences, and again near the end, and the intensity of your desire that we all cease discussion of ki. (more for you on this in a minute, Greg :) )

And perhaps my cats are spoiled, but they do not purr when they hear me, or even see me walk near them. They do purr, however, when I run my hand over them without touching them.

Greg,

I have only met a small group of instructors and students from a few Iwama dojos, and admittedly the instructors were all from the same time period in Iwama, but they all had a few things in common: a. within the first few minutes of discussion you would know they traced their lineage directly to O Sensei via Saito Sensei and in how many generations. b. that the ONLY way to good Aikido is via hard static training and that even thinking about ki was a waste of time.

I'm not saying that way of looking at things is wrong, but if ever there seemed to be a group that would turn up the volume immediately at the mention of ki, it was them. To me, it's fine, and I have no doubt there are variations from dojo to dojo, sensei to sensei, but name the following styles from each example:

a. Nage is performing a kokyunage, leads a moving/attacking uke in a circle (so that nage is facing in the same direction and slightly behind uke), places his hand lightly on uke's neck, leads him in a looping motion (which lets his feet move from under his center off balancing uke) and with his leading hand points his finger back directly at ukes face (well, just to the side of the far ear) and down to effect the throw (finger points in the direction ki)

b. Standing still, uke grabs nage full strength. Nage moves behind and facing in the same direction as uke, he firmly grabs the back of uke's collar and uses a 45 degree breakdown angle to offbalance uke, then moves forward to complete the throw. Essential here is correct breakdown angle and maintaining uke off balance after the initial move.

I would say either can be Iwama or Aikikai or Ki Society, etc, but in the early stages, when it seems students are the most vehement that theirs is the correct approach and others are following a fools path, one group would choose one way, and one another. And, in those Iwama students I've met, there is a strong feeling that thinking/talking about ki is wasted energy and there's a quick response to stomp out such discussions early. I think this comes from (at least in part) the Saito Sensei quote Jorgen had in the start of his post. Certainly not wrong, it is one approach, and one that I'd say I've seen in the Iwama dojos I've visited. I like training with Iwama students, they generally are very intense and practice hard, and it does a lot to clean up sloppy footwork (as did a dojo I was at with Yoshinkai roots). But I know better than to use any ki words when I'm there :D

aiki_what
04-24-2002, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by Jonathan
She stared at me with a peculiar look on her face and then smiled and said, "I have been doing tai chi long enough to know chi when I feel it." Until that moment I'd had no idea that I had "strong chi" (and I'm still somewhat doubtful), but apparently it was evidenced in my aikido. And I didn't have to make a single chi ball. :D

Practice, practice, practice.

Sorry Jonathon, but that is the oldest aiki pickup line in the world.......

Bruce Baker
04-24-2002, 08:14 AM
After reading the response of those who have spent some time in training with some people who have had strong KI ... I wonder if the east has come west to rediscover the gut strength we interpret as KI?

Most people who live long enough will see some incredible, unexplainable feat of strength by some other human being who is not physically capable of doing what you saw?

You may do something totally stupid that results in a wrentched back or injury later in your workday, but when you picked up or moved that object it was difficult to do at all?

KI / Chi? Or was it will power, gut strength?

I have seen some pretty weird stuff that eventually had scientific explanations ... maybe that is coming with our understanding of Iron Body verses Hypnotizing ourselves, and our own electrical energy or bio-force of life?

In either case ... back to the question.

Have you ever worked on projecting your Ki/chi/electrical bioforce into a ball of energy?

You can add to this by telling me if you use visualization in projecting your energy in techniques too ... does it make a measured difference when you don't?

Greg Jennings
04-24-2002, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Have you ever worked on projecting your Ki/chi/electrical bioforce into a ball of energy?

No. We use "polishing the ball" as a metaphor for proper mechanics. We do not believe in ki as a usable "bio electrical" force.

We believe in ki as a heuristic for the many, many variables, physical and psychological that contribute to optimal performance.


You can add to this by telling me if you use visualization in projecting your energy in techniques too ... does it make a measured difference when you don't?
As explained above, we certainly do visualize projecting energy, balls, streams of water, etc. to aid in correct mechanics.

Yes, in an anecdotal sense, it does seem to make a difference.

No, I can't say it's ever been measured. That would be very difficult. It would require sensors, a statistially significant sample, crafting double-blind tests, etc.

I, personally, find it much easier to keep my own council and, as my instructor puts it "Don't talk...DO".

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
04-24-2002, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by ca
Greg,

I have only met a small group of instructors and students from a few Iwama dojos, and admittedly the instructors were all from the same time period in Iwama, but they all had a few things in common: a. within the first few minutes of discussion you would know they traced their lineage directly to O Sensei via Saito Sensei and in how many generations. b. that the ONLY way to good Aikido is via hard static training and that even thinking about ki was a waste of time.

Well, that pretty much tells me what I wanted to know!

Sincerely,

Erik
04-24-2002, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
You can add to this by telling me if you use visualization in projecting your energy in techniques too ... does it make a measured difference when you don't?

The unbendable arm works with the visualization, however, it also works without it, IF, you know how it works. However, like most people, I was never told the mechanics. It was ki, ki and more ki which did it. I've probably done that technique a hundred times in a class setting.

If someone had simply told me the truth, which is that it's a function of how the muscles work I could have done it once, been able to do it more effectively, been able to apply the concept usefully, and never had to waste any more time with the practice.

So much of this stuff is simple not complex. But we want the complex, the mystical (ki) or even the scientific (big verbiage) answer and so we screw around looking in all the wrong places. Not only does it waste our time, you often don't even have anything useful when you are done.

Erik
04-24-2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by William
I have confidence that in time Western science will be able to explain many other of the seemingly impossible feats that Ki facilitates.

What vexes me is that there are vidoes out there, and many people have even been priviliged enough to witness (or even experience) the application of Ki techniques first hand, and they still persist in claiming that it doesn't exist.

I gladly do so. I think most, probably all of it could be explained with a good engineer handy.

Ki is just as mystical as our ability to think rationally, or our ability to move our limbs by the power of thought. Everything is mystical, but with the triumph of rationalism in Western society the wonderful and mystical has been rationalised.

Now we come across Aikido, which has preserved that sense of the mystical and wonderful in the mundane world, and some people feel obliged to go about tearing it down until they feel comforitable (and some would argue, ultimately unhappy) again.

Yea, I'm one of those. I don't think it does anyone any good to believe in something which doesn't exist. Been there, done that to death. Do you need 3 guesses as to where I sit on religion? See my comments on the unbendable arm as to why I think mysticsm is damaging. By the way, the world is anything but mundane. ki doesn't change that.

"WHAT I WANTED TO POINT OUT was that it would be more efficient if we considered these rational terms FIRST and THEN move to the "uncharted territories". Especially this goes for the ones who begin. Their progress will be way faster when they can use concepts they already know."


I agree, it's just that many of us want to stay in uncharted waters. Hence, when a much simpler answer comes along it's not acceptable. I know people who flat out refuse to accept my explanation of the unbendable arm. It has to be ki. This is why I come down so hard on the subject. It's incredibly hard, once you become addicted to the magical, to return to the rational. Teachers teaching this stuff, in this way, are not doing their students any favors.

Erik
04-24-2002, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
I've had a Ph.D. in Biochemistry for about 15 years and been doing Aikido in Japan and elsewhere for a reasonable stretch.

Wish I'd known that. It would have saved me a step. You just never know what's on the other side of the screen.

Jorx
04-24-2002, 03:37 PM
Drifted away we are:)

No I haven't tried to make a chi ball. I would like very much to train with some
ki-society ppl but there are none in Estonia:(

Visualisation (psychology) is one thing chi is another.

I didn't learn that negative numbers where there in 1st grade:) Anyhow nowadays they say that square root from minus one exists... In school you learned that it's not possible.

Anyhow, I think quite much has been said different sides been represented. End of discussion from me, but I'll be glad to read if others continue.

The little discussion about style - there are only Aikikai dojos in Estonia. Even the creepy REAL-Aikido (I don't know if anyone knows this organisation) belongs under the Aikikai federation. So the name is nothing... at least in Estonia.

Colleen... well some say that cats can see the 8th color of rainbow as well;) and DEATH in person;) (Discworld rulz) cats are just cats that's why we keep them:D

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
Riveta Sportsclub

P.S. Bruce - ever heard of the theory that the Earth WAS flat until ppl's imagination started drifting other way?

Tijmen Ramakers
04-24-2002, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Jorx
Anyhow nowadays they say that square root from minus one exists... In school you learned that it's not possible.

Well, to say that it exists... It is called an imaginary number. But there may be a similarity with ki :)

Imagine there would exist a number i so that i*i=-1. Why would you imagine that? Because using that imaginary number i, you can greatly simplify some otherwise complex mathematical problems (and raise a few others).

Imagine there would be ki, an energy flowing through your body and the rest of the universe. Why would you imagine that? Because visualizing that energy flow ki, helps your mind to control your body in a more optimal way.

(Yes, I know the views above are a simplification.)

well some say that cats can see the 8th color of rainbow as well;) and DEATH in person;)

Well, since cats are nighttime hunters (they are, aren't they?), it would seem logical that their range of vision would be shifted in the direction of the infrared, compared to humans. So, they could indeed see colors we can't.
There are stories about dogs who 'sensed' severe illness or upcoming heart attacks of their owners, haven't heard them about cats. But they can mostly be explained by links as illness -> immune system -> body odor -> dog smell, or other physical warning signals we humans just don't pick up.

Just to say that most things can be explained rationally.

[If this boring stuff isn't enough to kill the discussion, what else will?]

Chris Li
04-24-2002, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
Kenji Tomiki explained that there were various powers involved in Aikido. Power of strength, power of movement, breath power and the more mystical Ki. The confusion in the western mind, and I may add that of many Japanese, is that Ki is often used to explain the combination of all of these concepts. Now some guy sitting in seiza blowing away an attacker without touching him (I have seen the video) is Ki if you believe what he's doing is for real, but what component of an Aikido technique is Ki? I suggest that Ki is in fact not a force that can be projected.

Well, Tomiki was a rationalist (not a bad thing). I think the confusion lies mainly in the fact that "ki" has many different (and often vague) meanings in Japanese, many of which change due to context. "Ki" is certainly used as you mentioned above, but it's also used in Japanese as a "projectable force" - depends what you're talking about and who you're talking to.

Best,

Chris

lt-rentaroo
04-24-2002, 07:03 PM
Hello,

Well, since cats are nighttime hunters (they are, aren't they?), it would seem logical that their range of vision would be shifted in the direction of the infrared, compared to humans. So, they could indeed see colors we can't.

Umm, cats do not see colors that humans cannot see. This is because cats do not see in color, but rather shades of gray.

However, honey bees can see into the infrared spectrum.

PeterR
04-24-2002, 08:19 PM
Hi Chris - well so am I which is probably the reason I have found my Aikido niche at the Shodokan.

Originally posted by Chris Li
Well, Tomiki was a rationalist (not a bad thing). I think the confusion lies mainly in the fact that "ki" has many different (and often vague) meanings in Japanese, many of which change due to context. "Ki" is certainly used as you mentioned above, but it's also used in Japanese as a "projectable force" - depends what you're talking about and who you're talking to.

Chris Li
04-24-2002, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
Hi Chris - well so am I which is probably the reason I have found my Aikido niche at the Shodokan.


So am I, I think, in terms of technical practice. Still, there's something wonderful in the philosophy of practice that M. Ueshiba espoused. Well worth working your way through the texts of his speeches (if you have the time!), if you want to examine not only the how of practice, but the why. FWIW, my impression is that he used the word "ki" primarily in a philosophical and technical sense, rather than in the sense of magical rays emerging from your fingertips.

Best,

Chris

William
04-25-2002, 03:27 AM
" once you become addicted to the magical, to return to the rational. Teachers teaching this stuff, in this way, are not doing their students any favors. "

Okay, sorry, going slightly off topic here, but I have one word for you, Montessori. Its a teaching technique where the child discovers the answers for themselves. The teacher merely facilitates, each pupil moving at their own pace. Its bloody brilliant, but unfortunately not popular. No lies, and arguably better than mainline teaching (but it needs much better trained teachers).

" I've had a Ph.D. in Biochemistry for about 15 years and been doing Aikido in Japan and elsewhere for a reasonable stretch. Had some great conversations with everything from acupunturists to neo-shintoist priests. "

Technical qualifications lose validity after roughly three years ;) . No wait, that was just pure nastyness :) . Point taken though Doctor.

" Science has not been able to demonstrate its existance which by the way is as detrimental to the argument fo Ki as it is possibly a shortcoming of science "

As someone put it extremely succinctly, 'Absence of proof is not proof of absence'. But your statement above is not entirely accurate. Psychometrics measure immaterial mental constructs, by carefully defining the construct and using statistical methods to correlate its existance to a measurable phenomenon. The first step would be to operationally define Ki, develop an instrument, and link it to a series of likely measurable phenomenon, then validate the results through statistical method. I'm not aware of anyone having done this yet, but I am open to correction. If this is done according to scientific method, then Science will have quantified Ki.

As for asking Science to demonstrate the existance of Ki, thats laughable. Thats like asking Scientists to demonstrate the existance of Life. It already exists, it doesn't need to be demonstrated, merely defined and quantified.

" As a biochemist we break life down into its component parts but if we consider life as being greater than the sum of its parts - well that little bit extra is Ki. "

Yes, no, maybe.

And personally I like it that way. :D

PeterR
04-25-2002, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by William
but I have one word for you, Montessori. Its a teaching technique where the child discovers the answers for themselves. The teacher merely facilitates, each pupil moving at their own pace.
Great system - had my kid in same while in Canada but they still had their text books and never really strayed to far from the straight and narrow.

Technical qualifications lose validity after roughly three years ;)

If of course you leave the field.

As for asking Science to demonstrate the existance of Ki, thats laughable. Thats like asking Scientists to demonstrate the existance of Life. It already exists, it doesn't need to be demonstrated, merely defined and quantified.
Everything science measures exists - what's your point? As I said in previous posts I don't dismiss the existance of ki entirely (absence of proof thingy) but I do dismiss many of the claims made in its name and of course as soon as some school girl demonstrates that one aspect is pure bunk the goal posts are moved.

I had my Ki measured this summer at a Ki no onsen near Tokyo - the dial jumped and everything. The man I am sure believed it - I kept my mouth shut.

Bruce Baker
04-25-2002, 07:00 AM
I see a lot of clutter...

but at least we are talking, and exchanging some interesting thoughts for a change ... I like it.

For Jorgen in Estonia:

Yeah, the world is flat ... depending on how distant you look? Arms length from your body, or relative area surveyed by your vision allows for perception of that area, doesn't it?

Which is kind of like the perception of healing hands, or what seems to be the ability to generate bioelectric energy and use this energy in other ways which seems to be the interpretation of chi/KI?

I guess that would encompass every single mechanical movement of the body, as without use of it the body would not move at all?

The best interpretation, and funny story, was the moving of a salt shaker to demonstate KI by picking it up and moving it across the table. It is something we can all do, but never associate it Ki, as it takes no special powers, no comic book hero? We all have Ki because we live, we move, cool!

Just because Ki society has Ki in the name, no offense here, doesn't mean there are not other places to look and learn about ki? Take the salt shaker lesson?

Life is like that though, the simple science of our everyday lives is taken for granted when described in unknown terms ... how is your ki today (you inner strength)... how is your Kung Fu (hard work) today?

How wide is your perception?

As for Peter and Williams thoughts:

Wow guys!

I didn't want to go there myself (because of the browbeating I have taken of late) but I was hoping someone else would.

Funny thing about science, first the phenonmenon then the science. (hopefully that statement won't come back to bite me with the chicken or the egg first arguement?)

I don't think we have the science, yet. We should work on this KI/Chi thing a little more and get some science, shouldn't we?

I am just a poor dumb technician who fixes things, observes, and makes notes ... so some of the computer language and more technical aspects of how certain things work elude me, but if I use something that works again and again ... there must be something there, eh?

Since I can't work full time, I usually have the radio or television on in the backround.

The other day, the learning channel was doing a special about hypnotizm and pain. They had monitors and scans with brain responses on a monitor, and you know what? The brain registered pain when the subjects felt pain, and the brain registered pain when they didn't feel pain!

Even though the subjects were hypnotized into believing there was no pain, the brain still recieved the same signals but the patients claimed not to feel the pain. The patients, also claimed, not to feel the pain even though the machine said it should be there.

You want to talk about weird science?

So with this, and hundreds of other scientific evidence, or nonevidence from contrary scientific test results without conclusions, I would say science has a long way to go to proving phenonmenon. It will happen, someday, but today ain't the day.

It would be interesting when we finally stumble upon the right type of machine or machines that do?

Don't go running naked through the streets when you yelling Eureka, but then again, not everybody can be scientists either?

Makes Aikido more interesting to know we can't explain everything ... like Ki formed into balls?

Jorx
04-25-2002, 07:34 AM
:p

I said the previous one was my last post on this thread but...

I liked the story about moving the salt. Actually that was what I was quite much talking about before. No need to think on it;) Just live it (using the knowledge you already have)

Today's doka of O'Sensei:
Aiki!
A way so difficult to analyse.
(But one needs only to) follow
The natural rotations of the
Heavens.

- Morihei Ueshiba

Well that covers it quite much as well. Another thing: "Just do it!" (Nike tm)

Anyway... just correcting some mistakes:

The thing about cats seeing stuff: That was taken from the world famous writer Terry Pratchett's book. No truth behind that. Pure fantasy. BTW - cats can see quite much enough the basic colours although very few variations.

To Bruce:
The thing about Earth being flat... I didn't mean how you looked... there just is an existential philosophy thing which claims that world is whatever we make of it - if most of us start believing that horses can fly - they will. So by that theory the Earth WAS flat before the other theory expanded.

All for now.

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
Rivet Sportsclub

Andy
04-25-2002, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Yeah, the world is flat ... depending on how distant you look? Arms length from your body, or relative area surveyed by your vision allows for perception of that area, doesn't it?

Which is kind of like the perception of healing hands, or what seems to be the ability to generate bioelectric energy and use this energy in other ways which seems to be the interpretation of chi/KI?
Ad hoc argument as well as argumentum ad ignorantiam.
I am just a poor dumb technician who fixes things, observes, and makes notes ... so some of the computer language and more technical aspects of how certain things work elude me, but if I use something that works again and again ... there must be something there, eh?
Oh, yes. When I push on my gas pedal, it squishes the tail of a tiger (I'm sure you've seen it in the TV commercials where the tiger jumps into the car engine compartment?) which lets out a large "growl!". The sound scares all of the little gremlins which are usually sleeping in the tires, causing them to try to run away. This, in turn, makes the car go forward.

Yup. Since I use my gas pedal all the time, my explanation must be true.

In other words: Non sequitor as well as non causa pro causa.

So with this, and hundreds of other scientific evidence, or nonevidence from contrary scientific test results without conclusions, I would say science has a long way to go to proving phenonmenon. It will happen, someday, but today ain't the day.
Hypostatization.

Erik
04-25-2002, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by William
As someone put it extremely succinctly, 'Absence of proof is not proof of absence'.

It is rather hard to prove something doesn't exist. Try being an Atheist for kicks. The problem is that we have an absolute burden of proof. In other words, we have to disprove every single possibility, whereas a believer only needs to believe and have any possibility (even made up one's) to be right. For instance, carbon dating works and it works quite well. However, there are flaws with it depending on the method and the material measured. When used correctly they do a pretty good job of proving that the earth is older than bible thumpers claim. However, hard core bible thumpers glom onto the problems when used incorrectly and use that as proof for their case. In other words, they need no proof and your proof must be perfect.

But your statement above is not entirely accurate. Psychometrics measure immaterial mental constructs, by carefully defining the construct and using statistical methods to correlate its existance to a measurable phenomenon. The first step would be to operationally define Ki, develop an instrument, and link it to a series of likely measurable phenomenon, then validate the results through statistical method. I'm not aware of anyone having done this yet, but I am open to correction. If this is done according to scientific method, then Science will have quantified Ki.

As for asking Science to demonstrate the existance of Ki, thats laughable. Thats like asking Scientists to demonstrate the existance of Life. It already exists, it doesn't need to be demonstrated, merely defined and quantified.

You should be able to easily measure ki, or more accurately, the effects of ki. If you do ki healing then it has to affect the body in some measurable way. If you throw someone into the air with ki then there is a measurable force at work which should work on inanimate objects but for some reason never does. If you can weight your body down then we ought to be able to put you on a scale and measure the increase in weight or measure why you are harder to lift. These are very doable things. If not today then tomorrow. We're a lot better at this than some people think and worse than some other's think.

On the flat Earth bit. It was fairly common knowledge that the Earth was not flat when Columbus hopped on his boat. That is another happy myth. A good discussion can be found here:

http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/swartz/flat_earth.htm

Jonathan
04-25-2002, 01:36 PM
Sorry for this brief divergence from the thread topic.

Erik, calling a christian a "Bible thumper" is kinda' derogatory; like calling a Sikh a "raghead" or an African American a "spook". I don't think you would use those terms normally when referring to such people (I know I wouldn't). Please extend the same courtesy to christians.

(P.S. It's very likely, given what science indicates, that God created the Earth pre-aged.)
:D

Mark Mueller: :D :D :D

Kat.C
04-25-2002, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan
Sorry for this brief divergence from the thread topic.

Ditto.

Erik, calling a christian a "Bible thumper" is kinda' derogatory; like calling a Sikh a "raghead" or an African American a "spook". I don't think you would use those terms normally when referring to such people (I know I wouldn't). Please extend the same courtesy to christians.

Yes, I'm a christian and I find the term rather disagreeable.(Not all christians might.)

(P.S. It's very likely, given what science indicates, that God created the Earth pre-aged.)
:D

The bible never states how old the earth is so I don't see how anyone would dispute the findings of carbon dating by using the bible.
It's meant as a spiritual guide not as a history lesson. I can't imagine why God created it pre-aged, what's a few million years more or less to him?:)

Erik
04-25-2002, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan
Erik, calling a christian a "Bible thumper" is kinda' derogatory; like calling a Sikh a "raghead" or an African American a "spook". I don't think you would use those terms normally when referring to such people (I know I wouldn't). Please extend the same courtesy to christians.


Well, believe it or not, I don't see it that way at all. I find some Christians quite reasonable and other's I find to be:

From Merriam Webster's online dictionary:

Main Entry: Bi·ble-thump·er
Function: noun
Date: 1937
an overzealous proponent of Christian fundamentalism

By the way, they didn't have any entries for spook or raghead which are words I would never use. So you see, I was referring to a certain type of individual, or to my mind, behavior as in thumping on the bible. Anyways, next time I'll just say "an overzealous proponent of Christian fundamentalism" which is what I meant. ;)

guest1234
04-25-2002, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings

Well, that pretty much tells me what I wanted to know!

Sincerely,

Well I've not met ALL Iwama students and instructors... the ones I've met are sandan through rokyudan, either spent years as Iwama deschi, or are longtime US students of those that did. Now one of those senseis was once the student chosen to accompany Saito Sensei on several important overseas tours, and at every Saito Sensei seminar I've attended Saito Sensei himself brought the sensei in question over to sit with him, making others move, but I supposeI could have misunderstood that sensei when he told me what the Iwama viewpoint on these issue is (I doubt the sensei himself would be mistaken, he is clearly too close).:rolleyes:

Of course, as Iwama dojos are more and more removed from actual closeness to Saito Sensei, I think certain viewpoints and approaches may vary. But the ones very close to the source of origin are pretty consistent in view( I think it is difficult for those very close to the source to consider anything other than exact copy tranmission). And it is not a wrong one, just a characteristic one.

Kat.C
04-25-2002, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Erik


Well, believe it or not, I don't see it that way at all. I find some Christians quite reasonable and other's I find to be:

From Merriam Webster's online dictionary:

Main Entry: Bi·ble-thump·er
Function: noun
Date: 1937
an overzealous proponent of Christian fundamentalism

By the way, they didn't have any entries for spook or raghead which are words I would never use. So you see, I was referring to a certain type of individual, or to my mind, behavior as in thumping on the bible. Anyways, next time I'll just say "an overzealous proponent of Christian fundamentalism" which is what I meant. ;)
Well this is good, I just finish my post and yours pops up immediately afterwards, I wouldn't have bothered with part of mine had I read this first. Still, that term is often applied to any christian at all and is usually meant to be demeaning.

To get back to the topic, I would still like to know what is the purpose of trying to make a ki ball.
I am also curious as to why some people want proof of the existence of ki. If you want to explore the possibilities, explore, I imagine the discovery process will teach alot regardless of whether you end up believing in ki or not. Why the quest for proof?

Kat.C
04-25-2002, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Kat.C

Well this is good, I just finish my post and yours pops up immediately afterwards, I wouldn't have bothered with part of mine had I read this first. Still, that term is often applied to any christian at all and is usually meant to be demeaning.

To get back to the topic, I would still like to know what is the purpose of trying to make a ki ball.
I am also curious as to why some people want proof of the existence of ki. If you want to explore the possibilities, explore, I imagine the discovery process will teach alot regardless of whether you end up believing in ki or not. Why the quest for proof?

I just reread my post and it sounded as if I was critisizing those who want proof and that wasn't my intent, just wondering why you want proof and what sort, proof for yourself or proof to convince others?

Steve
04-25-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Kat.C

SNIP
To get back to the topic, I would still like to know what is the purpose of trying to make a ki ball.
I am also curious as to why some people want proof of the existence of ki. If you want to explore the possibilities, explore, I imagine the discovery process will teach alot regardless of whether you end up believing in ki or not. Why the quest for proof?

Why try to explain ki? Because we are, all of us, human. Not ants or termites or any other organism that is doomed to operate on instinct. We have minds. Why wouldn't we want to understand every phenomenon of our universe?

Erik
04-25-2002, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by Kat.C
Well this is good, I just finish my post and yours pops up immediately afterwards, I wouldn't have bothered with part of mine had I read this first. Still, that term is often applied to any christian at all and is usually meant to be demeaning.


I'm a pretty literal guy in most ways. A friend of mine calls me the damndest Libertarian he's ever met. I deny this because no party represents my thoughts adequately. Don't see how they can because I can almost always see both sides to an issue.

Since we are post-stomping each other, I'll add why I would want proof.

I talk a lot about the unbendable arm these days because I think there's good stuff there. To me the unbendable arm is simply a more effective use of muscle. It wasn't always that way though. When I started I got the full-blown shooting ki out the arm explanation. I tried like crazy to use ki and it pretty much worked. The explanation produces the desired result within it's given context. However it leads in two iffy directions.

First, if I'd have understood the muscle aspect I could have applied it more easily. It's really easy to think in terms of muscle because it's concrete. It's really hard to think in terms of flowing ki because it's intangible. As such, the explanation is really much less usable and made that aspect of using the body much harder for me to apply.

Second, the unbendable arm, as it's explained in most places implies ki or such exists. It's assumptive based on the exercise. Maybe it does, maybe not but since the explanation is there and there's evidence (the unbendable arm) then maybe all the rest exists too. One thing worked because of ki, therefore ki is real. They say if you use ki you can something else (throw from 10 feet away), therefore you can. So, we go from a simple exercise with a simple explanation, to throwing people from 10' feet away to curing cancer because we went with the wrong explanation and believed it. The evidence for one implies that there is truth for another.

It's why I'm so adamant about the subject. While it's mostly harmless, it really can be hurtful in certain situations.

Damn, I've got to get busy again. Too much posting.

Kat.C
04-25-2002, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Steve


Why try to explain ki? Because we are, all of us, human. Not ants or termites or any other organism that is doomed to operate on instinct. We have minds. Why wouldn't we want to understand every phenomenon of our universe?

I guess I didn't phrase my question properly, I understand why one would want to explore the different possibilities of ki, I was just kind of wondering about the different reasons people wanted proof that's all. Trying to learn more about ki is bound to teach you stuff, even if it turns out that ki doesn't exist.
Anyways it's not a major issue, I was just mildly curious.

PeterR
04-25-2002, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan
Erik, calling a christian a "Bible thumper" is kinda' derogatory;

Strange - I didn't get the impression that Erik was including all Christians in his statement.

Have heard enough practicing Christians refer to extreme fundamentalists as Bible thumpers.

As to Kat's question - it's not so much as a need for proof as an attempt to understand. Scientists generally have no problem taking something on faith alone however it might be said we tend to be more picky where we place our faith.

If someone tells me that this is the mystical Ki - I want to know if it can be described in physical terms including if it is a hoax. If not - well then I examine if I wish to believe or not.

Kat.C
04-25-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Erik




Since we are post-stomping each other, I'll add why I would want proof.

I talk a lot about the unbendable arm these days because I think there's good stuff there. To me the unbendable arm is simply a more effective use of muscle. It wasn't always that way though. When I started I got the full-blown shooting ki out the arm explanation. I tried like crazy to use ki and it pretty much worked. The explanation produces the desired result within it's given context. However it leads in two iffy directions.

First, if I'd have understood the muscle aspect I could have applied it more easily. It's really easy to think in terms of muscle because it's concrete. It's really hard to think in terms of flowing ki because it's intangible. As such, the explanation is really much less usable and made that aspect of using the body much harder for me to apply.

Second, the unbendable arm, as it's explained in most places implies ki or such exists. It's assumptive based on the exercise. Maybe it does, maybe not but since the explanation is there and there's evidence (the unbendable arm) then maybe all the rest exists too. One thing worked because of ki, therefore ki is real. They say if you use ki you can something else (throw from 10 feet away), therefore you can. So, we go from a simple exercise with a simple explanation, to throwing people from 10' feet away to curing cancer because we went with the wrong explanation and believed it. The evidence for one implies that there is truth for another.

It's why I'm so adamant about the subject. While it's mostly harmless, it really can be hurtful in certain situations.


Yes I agree with you, such blind faith in ki could cause quite a bit of harm. I think of it as just kind of an energy within oneself (when I think of it at all). I certainly don't believe it could be used to cure cancer or other health problems though.
Nor did I believe the unbendable arm thing either when I read about it. (That is, not the ki explanation.)


You know Erik, from your other posts I never would have guessed you to be the gullible type
:p

Greg Jennings
04-25-2002, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by ca


Well I've not met ALL Iwama students and instructors... <SNIP> what the Iwama viewpoint on these issue is (I doubt the sensei himself would be mistaken, he is clearly too close).
<SNIP>
And it is not a wrong one, just a characteristic one.

I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion stated above.

I'm disagreeing with your subtle extrapolation of your experience with Iwama-oriented instructors onto the entire population.

Specifically, I take umbrage with the embedded statement "b. that the ONLY way to good Aikido is via hard static training..." .

NONE of the Iwama instructors I've met, from Saito Sensei on down, have espoused that attitude. They may believe the Iwama method is good. They may believe it's the best way for them personally. But NONE that I've met have stated the opinion you gave.

Yes, I've run into a slew of lower-ranking mudansha that held that myopic view. I guess that they're entitled to their opinion even if it is ethnocentric, elitest and, if you'll pardon me being harsh, just plain stupid.

I'll wind up the whole deal and never speak of this again with one rather long quote:


LET IT BE
When I find myself in times of trouble.
Mother Mary comes to me Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
And in my hour of darkness She is standing right in front of me. Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
Let it be, let it be.

Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.
And when the broken hearted people. Living in the world agree,
There will be an answer, let it be.
For though they may be parted there is.
Still a chance that they will see.

There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be. Yeah. There will be an answer, let it be.

And when the night is cloudy.
There is still a light that shines on me,
Shine on until tomorrow, let it be.
I wake up to the sound of music. Mother Mary comes to me. Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.

Let it be, let it be.
There will be an answer, let it be.Let it be, let it be,
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.


Best Regards,

Erik
04-26-2002, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by Kat.C
Yes I agree with you, such blind faith in ki could cause quite a bit of harm. I think of it as just kind of an energy within oneself (when I think of it at all). I certainly don't believe it could be used to cure cancer or other health problems though.

This guy does.

http://www.ryokukai.com/articles/radio_interview.htm

You know Erik, from your other posts I never would have guessed you to be the gullible type.

Not gullible. I just like to challenge conventional thinking and so I went hard-core alternative as my alternative to conventional thinking. When I'm wrong I like to be really wrong. I've wallowed in a lot of it.

The good news is that we wind up the best skeptics.

:p:p

And yeah, I was gullible.

Bruce Baker
04-26-2002, 08:27 AM
This

was

supposed

to

be

a

visualization

exercise.

I see some visualization is not to visualize, and some responders are so intent on the responded content they diverge ....

To return to subject.

How is the activation of blood flowing, warmth to the skin, and createing a warm fuzzy ball of warmth between your hands so incredible?

We have argued about Ki, which basically is some chemical exchange in the human body that we say or call "Life."

We, at least, have simplified a complex subject into a simple term all people can understand ... that is one on the chalkboard for us, wahoo!

I use the strength of my life, my Ki, to live and move my body.

On the other hand ...

I search for the other phenonmenon that appear with this life.

Nothing spectacular. Nothing out of the ordinary, until you consider how extraordinary life is?

As for religious thought about the origins of the earth or universe being here before the bible or religion ... beyond the narrow understanding of those who would believe less time has elapsed than reality and proven science has ascertained ?

Humanity creates its own religious beliefs.

If you remember that the ultimate goal of the universe is energy that becomes mass, and mass trying to become energy with various levels and combinations between of mass and matter, we have a perfectly feasable area to encompass all religions and all beliefs > maybe even a place to get the bodys meditative juices flowing and make warm fuzzy ki balls from life energy?

Hey, we have all kinds of physical training, mental training, and uses of religion with meditation, sometimes called prayer or used in the form of prayer, so why not using the biochemical reactions of the body that many times are called life or KI?

Use it ... or lose it.


Quotes by O'Sensei aren't always clear either.

They too have to do with educational arguements in the moot court?

(Maybe I should have posed this question to the psychic network? They would have, at least, asked about Aikido, what is that?)


Actually, this is a meditation practice with some beneficial physical/mental training benefits.

Has your training or search encountered anything simular?

Bruce Baker
04-29-2002, 09:21 AM
The thread about Ki balls of energy basically came up with KI/Chi being the energy of each persons body that creates life/movement.

It simplifies the fantasy factor to know that each moment of life is the Ki/chi, from thinking to putting on your clothes you are using ki/chi.

How much of the electrical energy generated in the body in associated with the mistaken fantasy as opposed to actually feeling a spark from another person, or effectiveness of doing Aikido techniques in a particular form because it is enhanced by the energy or pain aspect of ki/chi exchange?

Or, in your learning to do ikkyo or nikkyo does correct form act as the set up to using ki/chi as an enhancement to Aikido's effectiveness?

tedehara
05-02-2002, 02:06 AM
You should read Dragonball Z and Ki (http://unofficial.ki-society.org/kiexpl.html) by rei to call you back from the deep end.

If we were just judging by aikido styles, you're suppose to be the sensible ones and I'm suppose to be the mystic. What's going on here?!! ;)

Bruce Baker
05-08-2002, 09:26 PM
I guess the simple way to do this exercise is being able to send energy, or heat to your hands.

If you can warm the area between your hands, with palms cupped as if holding a ball, and then create warmth between your hands ...

Well ...

If you get to that point, you can try to grab that ball of warmth and see if you can use your own energy to take away your buddys ball of warmth?

If you can, you will know what this is all about.

If you can't, you will get a joke on your buddy.

Either way, at least you will learn to warm your hands? That has to be worth something on a cold day?

Irony
05-09-2002, 12:47 AM
Re: round Earth:

What about the quantum physics theory that the universe only exists because we percieve it?

(just had to throw a wrench in)

bcole23
05-09-2002, 02:25 PM
So I broke my rib and have been unable to attend class for some time. So I get on here and read about "Ki balls". I think, "Great! I can still go home and train...".



So I'm sitting at home creating kill balls and I knocked over my wife's favorite Tiffany lamp ($5,000) across the room. My use of ki energy for destructive purposes brought more destruction (from my wife).

So after much meditation, I figured that sending ki balls outward from my person serves no purpose, I retracted my ki back into my hands. I then took my ki energized hands and mended the lamp and brought harmony back into my life.



[Irrational babbling in the mindset of the mystical]
If you read all the stories, the 'magical' ki feats perpetrated by ki masters all take years off one's life. Ki can be described as your 'life force' or spirit. So by using that energy in a way that converts it into physical energy, it is no longer a part of oneself. Some say that psychics are people who are able to absorb the ki energy that exists naturally or is given off by people. Thus they can perform 'ki' feats without using internal energy. Ki healers do not use ki to heal, they use ki to empathize and connect with a persons ki to heal the inner self and facilitate self healing. Young children and animals are very attuned to ki.
They will react to your inner intentions and thoughts, even when not outwardly shown.
[/Irrational babbling in the mindset of the mystical]

The previous was not a post of my personal views, but more of a look at one side of the coin.

I personally believe that as a people, we humans are just starting to come out from under the trappings of religion (not faith) to find the true meaning of life and existence. I believe we are also starting to realize science for what it is and what it lacks. We must have both to exist.

P.S. I'm in a wierd mood today... haven't had any training in a while...

clockworkmechanicalman
12-25-2006, 11:10 PM
since most people here are hell bent on the nonexistence of ki, why not change the name of aikido to just aido? way to sh*t in my cereal, guys. one of the reasons i'm interested in aikido is the ki involved. that being said streetfighter 2's chi/ki ball is nothing but a video game awesomeness, but kiatsu, is part of shin shin toitsu aikido. and is an option (in my mind at least) of how to heal loved ones, even if it is does drain years off my life. friends, i've seen many strange things in this life. things that are far stranger than ki. and even if ki is nothing more than heat or the power of positive thinking (which i doubt) that's better than nothing. just a young dumb mystic, i guess. i'll leave you all with a bad religion song lyric "hey man of science with your perfect rules of measure, can you improve this place with the data the you gather?"

Kevin Leavitt
12-26-2006, 01:20 PM
The issue typically is not so much that KI is non-existent, but what exactly KI is and how to you measure of quantify it.

Seems as if no two people will define it the same.

What is your definition?

Chuck.Gordon
12-26-2006, 01:35 PM
since most people here are hell bent on the nonexistence of ki, why not change the name of aikido to just aido?

Because the compound term 'aiki' means far more than the singular term 'ki' ... which, BTW, is more often found IN compound than by itself. Jun's got a very good article on 'ki' and how it's actually used in native Japanese online here somewhere.

way to sh*t in my cereal, guys.

If that's all it take to mess up your day, you need to maybe re-examine your so-called life?

one of the reasons i'm interested in aikido is the ki involved.

Note the famous story of Koichi Tohei (with whom my own teacher spent some time studying many years ago), who, asked to demonstrate his ki, moved a salt shaker across a table. With his hand. 'That' he said, 'is ki.'

that being said streetfighter 2's chi/ki ball is nothing but a video game awesomeness,

And you do know that this thread was ancient, in interweb terms, at least 4 years old.

but kiatsu, is part of shin shin toitsu aikido. and is an option (in my mind at least) of how to heal loved ones, even if it is does drain years off my life.

People touching other people in a caring way is one the oldest and most primal healing arts. It has nothing to do with secret energy or mystical nonsense. If you reach out and caress someone you love who's hurting, it will help.

Now, as for actual healing ... where's the evidence? Scientific studies? Why do you think that if there were a magical panacea -- replicable, repeatable, verifiable and re-creatable magic -- that can truly heal, then why isn't it being studied and taught in place other than Shinshintoitsu dojo?

Speaking of which, are you in the Virginia Ki Society? If so, please give my respects at the kamiza to George Simcox's memory. He was a dear and delightful man and a good friend, and I spent many hours with him talking about just these things.

friends, i've seen many strange things in this life. things that are far stranger than ki.

That ain't hard to do, especially as ki is little more than intent, in most cases.

"hey man of science with your perfect rules of measure, can you improve this place with the data the you gather?"

Actually, yes. Science is the root of most of the quality of life we experience in the civilized world. If it weren't for science and research and scientific thought and critical review, many -- MANY -- of us would not be alive today. Think about it. It's a grander thing than any superstition. It is mankind actually taking control of our own destiny and making the world a better place.

YMMV, of course.

cg
(who got an actual Rubber Chicken for Xmas!!!)

Kevin Leavitt
12-26-2006, 01:39 PM
Cool on the rubber chicken Chuck...I got a pair of ugly Tchibo socks, although I admit they are comfortable!

Was thinking about you and the fact that I have yet to come up and workout with you. What is your schedule over the next week? I might be able to get up there!

Mike Sigman
12-26-2006, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by PeterR:
Kenji Tomiki explained that there were various powers involved in Aikido. Power of strength, power of movement, breath power and the more mystical Ki. The confusion in the western mind, and I may add that of many Japanese, is that Ki is often used to explain the combination of all of these concepts. Now some guy sitting in seiza blowing away an attacker without touching him (I have seen the video) is Ki if you believe what he's doing is for real, but what component of an Aikido technique is Ki? I suggest that Ki is in fact not a force that can be projected.Well, Tomiki was a rationalist (not a bad thing). I think the confusion lies mainly in the fact that "ki" has many different (and often vague) meanings in Japanese, many of which change due to context. "Ki" is certainly used as you mentioned above, but it's also used in Japanese as a "projectable force" - depends what you're talking about and who you're talking to. I think there's 2 problems:
(1.) People are assigning the "mysterious force" nametag to Ki and then saying it doesn't exist. I.e., they're making their own strawman.

(2.)Ki is sort of amalgam of things, in the body usage.... most of the definitions assume that there is one thing that can be pointed at as "Ki". Doesn't work like that.

There's already substantial experimentation on the electromagnetic field effect of fascia, etc. James Oschaman's book on "Energy Medicine" tracks a lot of the source material. The fascia/mind thing and how it affects skin/tendon toughness, strength, force propagation, etc., is the heart of what the Body "Ki" is. So there's your tie ins to "Ki Balls", Strength, Forces, Health, and so on. It's all one subject. ;)

FWIW

Mike

Aristeia
12-26-2006, 05:19 PM
There's already substantial experimentation on the electromagnetic field effect of fascia, etc. not to mention the good work done by the Dharma Initiative.

Cady Goldfield
12-26-2006, 05:21 PM
-snip-
Note the famous story of Koichi Tohei (with whom my own teacher spent some time studying many years ago), who, asked to demonstrate his ki, moved a salt shaker across a table. With his hand. 'That' he said, 'is ki.'
-snip-
cg
(who got an actual Rubber Chicken for Xmas!!!)

And if he actually had been using his foot (among other things) to make his hand move, I'd say he was telling the truth. ;)

"The Other cg"
(Who thankfully is not on the Rubber Chicken Circuit)

P.S. Hey Chuck! Say 'hey' to Emily for me!

Tharis
12-26-2006, 06:32 PM
The issue typically is not so much that KI is non-existent, but what exactly KI is and how to you measure of quantify it.

Seems as if no two people will define it the same.

What is your definition?

Energy. That's really all it comes down to to me.

clockworkmechanicalman
12-26-2006, 06:42 PM
i realize the japanese have many different meanings for ki. i've seen it used in this thread as momentum or the unbendable arm .i not possitive but the unbendable arm sounds like taking an opponent's momentum away from him. i've also heard ki refers to as spiritual energy as well as physical energy. i, personally, believe (and some of you will laugh) in an invisiable world where all sorts of things coexist with us, but on a different plane of existence. if it's a a different time, or reality, or a land were mythological monsters roam the countryside, i don't know. but i believe that ki is the energy of that world, moving into this one...and i have no proof....and it's not possible to prove it.

as far as kiatsu and aikido, i'm new and it sounds like a good method to me. as far as it's all concerned i'm too new to have a opinion. my wife has chronic pain, and she needs to take mass quanities of pills inorder to stay sane. pills some people would steal for a high. i know this much though, one time when we went to this place caledd kateybugs in urbanna, va she was treated to some reiki, and as fate would have it her pain was dulled and she became more energic, i guess, which if you knew my wife doesn't happen often. i just felt like kiatsu maybe related to reiki somehow, as i said i'm new, and unable to start classes yet to a flu, night shift shedule, and bills so here are some crazy faces to get the ball rolling :hypno: :crazy: :confused:

Chuck.Gordon
12-27-2006, 03:57 AM
Cool on the rubber chicken Chuck...I got a pair of ugly Tchibo socks, although I admit they are comfortable!

Was thinking about you and the fact that I have yet to come up and workout with you. What is your schedule over the next week? I might be able to get up there!

Emily got an Airzooka, but we haven't gotten it assembled yet. The kit had left out three crucial plastic screws ... sigh.

We train tonight, possibly Friday; same sked next week.

cg

Chuck.Gordon
12-27-2006, 03:59 AM
"The Other cg"
(Who thankfully is not on the Rubber Chicken Circuit)

P.S. Hey Chuck! Say 'hey' to Emily for me!

LOL! I'll pass along your greets. Hope ya'll are well and having a great slide into the New Year!

Kevin Leavitt
12-27-2006, 04:43 AM
Thomas Harris wrote:

[/QUOTE]Energy. That's really all it comes down to to me.[QUOTE]

Thanks for the reply.

That said, can you explain this in more detail?

I am sure you will get a dissertation on this from Mike Sigman!

I agree, in simplistic terms concerning energy...especially when you get into sub atomic theory...which BTW is where I think the essense of KI is. Especially vibrational energy.

Mike Sigman
12-27-2006, 08:03 AM
Energy. That's really all it comes down to to me.

Thanks for the reply.

That said, can you explain this in more detail?

I am sure you will get a dissertation on this from Mike Sigman!
No... careful how you use my name. When people start using the term "energy" in a vague sense, I avoid the discussion. "Energy" means something very precise to me; it is a form of bookkeeping that must always balance... no measureable action ever happens for free. Adding and subtracting "energy", as much as we'd all like to believe its possible, simply doesn't happen.

Mike

DonMagee
12-27-2006, 08:51 AM
I can buy proper use of body mechanics to increase balance, strength, etc. Proper breathing, movement, coordination of mind and body, how to deal with stress and pressure, how to redirect pressure or power in a direction that gives you stablity. These things are all tangible, testable, and obviously work.

But when people start channeling energy, or doing no touch knock outs etc, it seems their success rate is limited to a group within a certain mind set, such as their own students, or people who want to believe. Rarely do these things work on non believers. Because of this, I have not seen evidence that would cause me to believe you can make a ki ball, or knock someone out with a kiai, generate a wall of energy, etc. The only way my opinion can be changed is sparing with someone who knocks me out without touching me, or getting hit by a blast of ki, etc. The chances of that happening is slim however, so I guess I'll have to stay in the dark.

Mike Sigman
12-27-2006, 09:07 AM
But when people start channeling energy, or doing no touch knock outs etc, it seems their success rate is limited to a group within a certain mind set, such as their own students, or people who want to believe. Rarely do these things work on non believers. Because of this, I have not seen evidence that would cause me to believe you can make a ki ball, or knock someone out with a kiai, generate a wall of energy, etc. The only way my opinion can be changed is sparing with someone who knocks me out without touching me, or getting hit by a blast of ki, etc. The chances of that happening is slim however, so I guess I'll have to stay in the dark.Well, a lot of the "energy" stuff has a small basis in reality because we all generate an electromagnetic field... and it just so happens that this field is related to the fascia structures which are in turn a major component of the actual "ki" of the body. The stronger your ki gets, the more magnetic field you generate. You can be somewhat aware of this field between your hands... that's the "ki ball" people are usually referring to... but that's because the hands are heavily innervated and heavily vascularized.

Some people apparently can see (or at least sense) the magnetic field of others... that's where all the aura stuff kicks in. Some people learn to control their own field to some degree and as a result can wind up *affecting* the field of others to some degree, although to what degree its real and what degree its suggestion is a variable. There's some correlation between this "field" and human suggestibility that is more than casual.

Regardless, the magnetic field stuff seems to be an interesting natural by-product of the body, but it's not functionally useful in any way that's been definitely proved, as far as I know. Sure, some people will respond wildly upon simply feeling this odd sensation from others and they'll move as a result (many people react like more-than-willing hypnosis subjects), but I've never seen any realistic or useful aspects of this stuff in a fight or other practical sense.

FWIW

Mike

Tharis
12-27-2006, 09:10 AM
No... careful how you use my name. When people start using the term "energy" in a vague sense, I avoid the discussion. "Energy" means something very precise to me; it is a form of bookkeeping that must always balance... no measureable action ever happens for free. Adding and subtracting "energy", as much as we'd all like to believe its possible, simply doesn't happen.

Mike

Oh yeah. I don't know about the unbendable arm (as I've never gotten it to work), but I do believe that a lot of the "ki" I encounter in my own dojo usually involves transferring it from the legs through the arms and into the partner. I think that moving in certain ways doesn't so much increase the energy as decrease the inefficiencies of movement. Rather than "ki-ing up" or whatever it would be, you're finding the key moment when you can project energy through your body into theirs, sometimes taking theirs for added momentum, and driving it, eventually, into the ground.

Of course, this isn't fully thought out. I mostly prefer the term energy because, while it is still dangerously vague, it isn't as loaded in mysticism as the word "ki" tends to be. I also don't speak japanese and so I feel I can't really have a full enough understanding of the word to use it precisely. Then again, you could say the same about the word energy.

Mike Sigman
12-27-2006, 09:27 AM
For all practical purposes, the ki is better thought of as a desireable unconscious "connection" that puts itself together as needed in order to support forces. If you let them, the primary muscles will override and you're back to normal in, say, the unbendable arm (I personally avoid that demo... it's too easy to fake). If you can find a proper visualization that will allow the "ki" to absorb and dissipate and promulgate forces (it usually takes a lot of practice with great relaxation in addition to the proper visualizations), the body will set it up so a force goes to the ground (or to the weight or whatever; the ki can also work by itself on a limited basis). Using that approach you can begin to work on a system of movement that greatly augments normal strength. The Ki by itself is not very strong; the ki added to muscle is very strong.

FWIW

Mike

Esaemann
12-27-2006, 11:41 AM
How about this?

One who is sensitive to chi/ki can be moved by someone who knows how to project it. I.e. a believer or student. This person will be thrown, but also be unharmed, for example, internally.

One who is not sensitive to chi/ki will not be moved and will be harmed internally by someone who knows how to project chi/ki.

If the energy is there, it is there whether one believes or not. Its just that the one who is sensitive to it, "gets out of its way", so to speak.

Another example, taking a hit with a hammer, is it better to be a rock or water?

Ron Tisdale
12-27-2006, 11:50 AM
Yikes...that last is one of the reasons martial arts get a bad name. I'd be carefull with that viewpoint...it is easily used to mislead students and to create cults.

Best,
Ron

DonMagee
12-27-2006, 11:55 AM
How about this?

One who is sensitive to chi/ki can be moved by someone who knows how to project it. I.e. a believer or student. This person will be thrown, but also be unharmed, for example, internally.

One who is not sensitive to chi/ki will not be moved and will be harmed internally by someone who knows how to project chi/ki.

If the energy is there, it is there whether one believes or not. Its just that the one who is sensitive to it, "gets out of its way", so to speak.

Another example, taking a hit with a hammer, is it better to be a rock or water?

So there should be some medical way of proving this.

Mike Sigman
12-27-2006, 11:57 AM
How about this?

One who is sensitive to chi/ki can be moved by someone who knows how to project it. I.e. a believer or student. This person will be thrown, but also be unharmed, for example, internally.

One who is not sensitive to chi/ki will not be moved and will be harmed internally by someone who knows how to project chi/ki.

If the energy is there, it is there whether one believes or not. Its just that the one who is sensitive to it, "gets out of its way", so to speak.

Another example, taking a hit with a hammer, is it better to be a rock or water?As noted in the book "Encounters with Qi" by David Eisenberg, M.D., you can "feel" something from someone who has worked his electromagnetic stuff up to a good level. Whether you move or not is almost certainly suggestion. So what if you can feel something? I can feel your body heat if you're close to me, but that doesn't mean I can go meditate in a cave for 9 years and turn that ability in city-destroying heat beams. ;)

Someone "getting thrown" by these feelings alone is doing it from suggestion. There are a number of videos of "ki" or "qi" on the internet showing stooge... er, students reacting to someone who can, in all probability, generate a little bit of electromagnetic field. It's a waste of time to go down that road. That stuff is a "side effect" of the main ki stuff, just like your body-heat increases as a side-effect to physical exercise.

In terms of someone "not being sensitive to ki" getting harmed, that's hogwash. I've had a number of people refuse to do things to me because they were afraid I'd get hurt. I push the conversation until they do their best. I've never been moved or hurt. Some of the results have been pretty funny, though. ;)

The old gag was to take your pet goldfish in his bowl to one of these demo's and when they refused to demonstrate on you because you might get hurt, tell them to go ahead and kill your goldfish. Of course they can't do it. What's always been stunning to me is the number of people who seriously thought they could damage someone with their projected Ki.

"If the energy is there"????? What "energy" are you talking about? See my previous post this morning about using the term "energy". If you're positing some type of tissue damage, do the math on how much energy is required to disrupt the tissue structures involved and then tell me where this amount of "energy" is going to come from and what part of the body is going to generate this kind of energy. :cool:

Regards,

Mike

Esaemann
12-27-2006, 12:36 PM
As Bruce Lee said, be water my friend. Heck, even better, be "like air". May not ever be possible by anyone, but reaching for the stars and only getting to the top of a mountain wouldn't be so bad in my mind.

However, if this is all hogwash, then I guess I'm "wasting" much time. Probably not the only thing I'm "wasting" time on, though.

As far as giving a bad name to anything, I reject the ability to influence anyone's mind. Much less with only words. Just as my Christian beliefs wouldn't be affected by a pastor who is a hyprocrite. Everyone must find their own way.

DonMagee
12-27-2006, 12:36 PM
I am so going to buy a goldfish.

Mike Sigman
12-27-2006, 12:42 PM
May not ever be possible by anyone, but reaching for the stars and only getting to the top of a mountain wouldn't be so bad in my mind.Assuming, of course that you actually get to the top of any mountain. Hard to do if your actual path leads to a swamp. :D

Mike

Esaemann
12-27-2006, 01:20 PM
Sorry, had to split up the post.

I guess my medical way of proving this is limited to my own experience. When I hit a bone on a hard object, it hurts much more than hitting soft tissue on a hard object. Also, ukemi (e.g. hard falls) seems to hurt more when stiff.

Mike,
Re: Your statement about adding muscle to ki made me think of this. Not sure if you're familiar with Yang, Jwing-Ming. If so...

He shows in one of his books a graph of a bell curve (time on the horizontal axis), and describes a transition from jin (mixed with muscle) to qi power. As the bell curve gets steeper (i.e. faster strike), there is more jin and less muscular force. A vertical line is pure qi (no muscle) which describes energy release in an infinitesimal amount of time. What are your thoughts on this?

P.S. I've got tropical fish and will not ask anybody to try it on them :)

DonMagee
12-27-2006, 01:28 PM
I guess my medical way of proving this is limited to my own experience. When I hit a bone on a hard object, it hurts much more than hitting soft tissue on a hard object. Also, ukemi (e.g. hard falls) seems to hurt more when stiff.



So are we talking about hitting something using your body? And thus we are talking about proper body mechanics used to generate force. Or are we talking about ki balls blasted without touch causing damage?

I will agree that using the body properly can allow you to hit harder then using traditional strength alone (Although I have to wonder how many people can keep these mechanics in a fight). But I still can't believe anyone can cause physical damage to me without touching me. (Throw objects and guns excepting)

Mike Sigman
12-27-2006, 01:40 PM
Mike,
Re: Your statement about adding muscle to ki made me think of this. Not sure if you're familiar with Yang, Jwing-Ming. If so...

He shows in one of his books a graph of a bell curve (time on the horizontal axis), and describes a transition from jin (mixed with muscle) to qi power. As the bell curve gets steeper (i.e. faster strike), there is more jin and less muscular force. A vertical line is pure qi (no muscle) which describes energy release in an infinitesimal amount of time. What are your thoughts on this?Well, I know Jimmy Yang. Listen.... all of us, including and especially Yang Jwing Ming, are on a path. None of us knows everything and, if we've got any sense, we continue to search out information and learn. I just watched a video of one of my teachers demonstrating something recently and it's obvious that his power has increased since I last saw him. Bully for him. I want to be like him and keep working.

In terms of hitting becoming more and more "internal" as it gets faster, let me point out that even someone "external" can get faster and stronger. And I've been decked by plenty of "external punches" in my time, so let's not get to laughing too much at how good we are "cuz we use internal".

The "external" styles are roughly the "muscle and bone" styles. The "internal" styles are roughly the "use sinews and tendon for power" styles. However, many so-called "external" styles uses some power from the sinews/tendons/fascia stuff and a lot of the so-called "internal styles" use some brute force, as need be. There is no clearcut definition. The implication from YJM's graph is that the fascia/tendons, etc., are used for the store and release power as skill improves; less arm/shoulder muscle, etc.

Regards,

MIke

Esaemann
12-27-2006, 01:41 PM
Don,
Let's say I'm skeptical about the whole "ball of energy" thing. I have no experience with it and haven't actually seen it either, only read it in books. My mind isn't closed to the idea. Just as atoms did exist even before we could prove their existence, I believe there are "things" that we haven't proven yet that do exist.

I was only extrapolating the idea from a known (hard object on bone) to the unknown ("ball of energy" on stiff body).

Esaemann
12-27-2006, 01:44 PM
Thanks, Mike. Makes sense.

I can only continue reading/studying/practicing.

DonMagee
12-27-2006, 01:58 PM
Don,
Let's say I'm skeptical about the whole "ball of energy" thing. I have no experience with it and haven't actually seen it either, only read it in books. My mind isn't closed to the idea. Just as atoms did exist even before we could prove their existence, I believe there are "things" that we haven't proven yet that do exist.

I was only extrapolating the idea from a known (hard object on bone) to the unknown ("ball of energy" on stiff body).

While it is true we could only speculate on atoms before we could test it, we can however test a ki ball strike this very moment.

A simple test by scientists could asset if you can damage an animal without touching it very quickly. In fact, the goldfish test stated previously would go a long way in proving ki balls. One easy way would be to get a test subject like a gorilla or monkey, something with similar human anatomy. The master could then ki strike the monkey from whatever distance is required. The monkey could then be inspected for physical damage.

Sure we might not be able to detect a ki ball. But if the claim is physical damage, we can for sure detect that. If I told you I could blow up a building with invisible lasers from my eyes, you might not be able to detect the lasers, but watching me blow up a building in a proven scientific study by a 3rd party should prove my point.

Ron Tisdale
12-27-2006, 02:09 PM
Or...you could just dust off your goldfish, and save a really big building.

Assuming that there ARE ki-balls, that is...

Oh never mind...this is getting silly...

B,
R

DonMagee
12-27-2006, 02:31 PM
From now on, anytime someone mentions anything I find silly. I am going to say "but what about my goldfish!"

Ron Tisdale
12-27-2006, 02:39 PM
LOL ;) Good one, once again Don!

B,
R (needed a good chuckle...the GF is freaking out, and my Mom is driving me CRAZY....)

MM
12-27-2006, 02:59 PM
From now on, anytime someone mentions anything I find silly. I am going to say "but what about my goldfish!"

ROTFL! Have to echo Ron, that was great!

Kevin Leavitt
12-27-2006, 04:14 PM
Sweet, must be christmas break! Ki balls! awesome!

deepsoup
12-27-2006, 06:33 PM
As noted in the book "Encounters with Qi" by David Eisenberg, M.D., you can "feel" something from someone who has worked his electromagnetic stuff up to a good level.
Hmm...

There are a number of videos of "ki" or "qi" on the internet showing stooge... er, students reacting to someone who can, in all probability, generate a little bit of electromagnetic field.
If you or anyone you know can "work up" a bit of electromagnetic field, James Randi (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html) has a million dollars for you. If I were such a student I'd stop messing about and go claim the free money.

Mike Sigman
12-27-2006, 06:55 PM
If you or anyone you know can "work up" a bit of electromagnetic field, James Randi (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html) has a million dollars for you. If I were such a student I'd stop messing about and go claim the free money.Gee.... this is a laydown. A Human Electromagnetic Field (HEF) has been established for a long time, Sean. It's weak, but it's there. You rushed too quickly to make a negative comment and tripped yourself up. Maybe if you go read Randi's "challenge" again?

Regards,

Mike

Gernot Hassenpflug
12-27-2006, 08:01 PM
LOL ;) Good one, once again Don!

B,
R (needed a good chuckle...the GF is freaking out, and my Mom is driving me CRAZY....)

Now whenever someone writes "GF" and "relationship" I'll be left wondering if that special something is the girlfriend or the goldfish :D

deepsoup
12-28-2006, 05:09 AM
Maybe if you go read Randi's "challenge" again?
No need. You said:
you can "feel" something from someone who has worked his electromagnetic stuff up to a good level
That definitely qualifies, but don't take my word for it. If you can do this, check out Randi's challenge again yourself, and then go get your million dollars.

Sean
x

Avery Jenkins
12-28-2006, 08:37 AM
I wouldn't rely on James Randi as an authority on science. He barely understands basic scientific principles, but he's made a bundle billing himself as "scientific."

DonMagee
12-28-2006, 09:51 AM
However, his core message is sound. Which is simply that if you have a fantastic claim (such as injury things from 10 feet away with a glance of your eyes or a ki ball), you should prove it. Otherwise your just talking bull.

Mike Galante
01-14-2007, 01:37 AM
Do you guys trust Usheiba? Why would you believe in, and practice his external art, and not the internal one?
He had a certain level of enlightement, to say to not fight. 2000 years after JC said to love thine enemy. I guess we martial artists don't catch on so quickly, we're known more for our guts.
It takes a certain amount of trust in and faith in the universal nature of all things, and the transcendendal possibilities of a human being.
This cannot be easily taught. Some people believe and some do not.
I thing you are more or less born that way. Usheibas spiritual bullet came before he had his enlightenment experience. He already had a sixth sense. He was predisposed to learning higher more abstract things.
The best Ki exercises are meditation and zen type spiritual exercises and you will be making better use of your precious life energy. Americans are always looking to shorten and assembly line everything. Even soul evolution.
Achieve nothingness go the center of all creation, trust it and let your life and Aikido spring forth without over intellectualization.
Ki=life energy, life energy=God, How foolish to try to understand/explain God. How is this possible?

Kevin Leavitt
01-14-2007, 04:57 AM
You know at some point all these guys, Ueshiba, Buddha, JC....all said, don't trust in me, trust in what I say, and that you have the power within you to make things happen, and to acheive happiness, enlightment, nirvana etc....

So, I don't so much trust, or have faith in a person, or a personification of a spiritual being, but try and use their teachings as a guideline to find the way. Everyone's path will be different.

I don't think there is anything wrong with "show me the money". It is easy for someone to build a dojo with all the caligraphy and wood work, put on a hakama, and all the robes, take on a soft, gentle pseudo japanese voice and demeanor...and then say TRUST ME, it will come with time, I'd show you, but you are not ready.

I think if they have the true ability then they CAN show you, and show you in any given situation. They may choose NOT to, but they CAN if that WANT to.

I think it can be easily taught. I think this is what guys like George Ledyard sensei, and Mike Sigman are getting at. Easy being a realitive term of course.

Don't short change Americans for wanting to take shortcuts. We do have our shortcomings I would agree, but innovation, and cutting to the core of what is important I don't believe is one of them.

Buddha, Jesus, and even Ueshiba and Kano, developed and codified things for us, shortcuts that is, so we did not have to waste our time on practices that did not lead down the right paths.

Where shortcuts become dangerous is when we lose perspective on what is important, say like valuing convienence and low cost over the environment, and we apply those new shortcuts in ways that are not necessarily the best for the world at large. That has nothing to do with innovation or taken shortcuts, and everything to do with Values and Ethics.

The world ain't fair. You could study aikido for 1 day and achieve what it has taken someone 20 years to achieve, or even surpass the sensei or shihan that has been studying for 40 years! There is no correct way to understand things, or a linear progression. Of course this might be a huge hit to the ego of the shihan who is professessing, "have faith, it will come to you in 20 years!''

So, I think I suppose that we must be very cautious about where we put our faith and trust, and expectations. The best place to place it, is in ourselves.

Mike Galante
01-14-2007, 10:45 PM
So, I think I suppose that we must be very cautious about where we put our faith and trust, and expectations. The best place to place it, is in ourselves.

I respectfully disagree, the best place to place faith and trust and expectations is in God.

Usheiba said:

1.)Those who have a warped mind, a mind of discord, have been defeated from the beginning.

Then, how can you straighten your warped mind, purify your heart, and be harmonized with the activities of all things in Nature? You should first make God's heart yours. It is the great Love, Omnipresent in all quarters and in all times of the universe. "There is no discord in love. There is no enemy of love." A mind of discord, thinking of the existence of an enemy is no more consistent with the will of God.
2.) I do not make a companion of men. Whom, then do I make a companion of? God.

If we put faith only in ourselves, then how many of us would attain these higher states?
Oh yes, we can improve ourselves, for sure, but to learn something more foreign to ones nature is another thing altogether. For that we need a mirror to see our blind spots. The teacher is our mirror.
In Aikido, that is why honest ukemi is so important. It is a mirror of our performance in this case the "teacher" is the uke.
It is pretty much a common belief that one on a spiritual journey needs a teacher.
If this were not true, there would be a lot more wise and happy people walking around.

Just my opinion,

Spiritual teachers push you to "attain". They correct you when you are astray, reward and punish as necessary to bring out the best in you.

I know this conversation may not end in agreement, Kevin, I understand that a martian person loves courage and self reliance. But when we put love into the equation now we are more of a conduit for higher energy or God's influence. When drawing down this heavenly ki we do so through a deity or saint, or prophet or messiah. This is a step toward accelerating growth. Again, my understanding is that the best we can be is a vessel for higher energy. That the ego self is nothing more than the grand illusion and enemy of the souls journey which needs to be surrendered. The higher self needs to be nourished and cultivated.

I always say how much can you trust someone? 10$ worth, 100, 1000, 100000 1000000? 10 million,

How much can you trust yourself?

That your ego won't get out of hand when you have 10, 100, 1000, 10000 etc. students, subjects?

That your passions will be under control surrounded by whatever number of beautiful women stranded on a desert island?

The watchful eye of a teacher, living or dead can save one from oneself. The real fight is the one with yourself and whatever weakness you or I have. To plug up the holes in your spiritual ship.

Well, I have ranted enough for one post tonight, sorry to be so contrary, I may be all wet, but this is how I honestly see the whole thing.

Kevin Leavitt
01-15-2007, 01:30 AM
I agree with what you are saying from this standpoint.

Maybe something as simple as semantics of accepting responsibility for your own actions and development.

Or the paradigm that the divine is within you...or for that matter all around. It permeates.

To me, belief in a God as a separate and distinct entity translates into duality, dualtiy translates into discord and conflict.

Until we trust ourselves, and believe in oursevles, how can we expect to get better and see things more clearly?

Mike Galante
01-15-2007, 11:15 AM
I agree, difficult to discuss, just stirring the pot.
It is a fine line, even the greatest of yogis, eg Milarepa, needed a teacher. My point was how far can you trust yourself?You sound like a disciplined guy, but how about your "blind spots" a teacher can guide you. If you read Milarepa, Tibet's great yogi. You will love it. He starts out one way and ends up another. Don't want to give it away. What his teacher puts him through is monumental. But the "punishment" fit the crime. It has been one of the inspiration for my life.
Really enjoy these discussions.
God be with you.
Mike

The best book on his life, with great detail and emotion:

"Tibet's Great Yogi—Milarepa" (by W.Y. Evans Wentz, Jesus College Oxford) from the Oxford University Press, London.

Kevin Leavitt
01-15-2007, 03:49 PM
You need teachers and others.

But I think before you can really embrace what many are teaching, you need to first take care of yourself.

To love others you must first love yourself.

To be able to do physical aikido, you must first take care of your physical fitness.

To be able to be prepared to understand the lessons, you must have a clear mind.

Not everyone has your best interest at heart.

Not everyone has the right lessons to teach you.

You alone are responsible for your actions and decisions.

I suppose all I am saying that the starting point to everything is you.

To not believe in yourself, and to think poorly of yourself, or to say "I am not worthy, therefore I surrender myself in faith" is not the correct way of doing things.

This is blind faith, and IMO is a dangerous spot to be in.

You will see things as you wish to see them, or how others wish you to see them....not as how the really are.

This is how KI balls become reality. It is a sad perversion of reality.

Mike Galante
01-15-2007, 08:27 PM
I told you we wouldn't agree on this one.
All the Best,
Mike

mwible
01-16-2007, 07:35 AM
ive never been to a ki seminar but ive done alot of reading on ki and i know what you are talking about, i just didnt know wether or not it is actually possible. if you coulkd possibly clarify wether or not you actually watched someone make and or throw a ki ball that would be great. :)

Kevin Leavitt
01-16-2007, 02:32 PM
Those that believe in it have seen it. It is their version of reality. We all have our own version of it.

What parts don't we agree on Mike?

That it is not important to first love yourself?

Just curious, not trolling for a fight! I have enjoyed our discussions!

Mike Galante
01-16-2007, 03:29 PM
Real martial artists are strongly influenced by planet Mars.
Mars rules soldiers, fighting arts, police, fireman, etc. where courage, honor, valor and steadfast determination are needed. This implies self reliance, self confidence, and confidence in oneself and abilities.
One cannot be wavering at the point of attack, with an insecure mind, etc.

When we talk about spiritual development or soul evolution, many more planets and aspects of a human being come into the picture. As we all know, Aikido is only one path of many toward the same end. Spiritual practice is often the salvation of people suffering in life. Many of us are grappling with self destructive or self defeating thinking and suffer for it.
My astrologer often said that suffering is caused by the wrong thinking. And that the "motto" of the 12Th house of self undoing or karma was to serve or suffer.
My spiritual teacher told me once, (at age 22) that if I couldn't do it for myself, then do it for him and, with time, I would eventually love myself enough to do it for me.
Any way, not all of us have strong martial tendencies. I happen to be inconsistent with that.
In other words, courageous when in the ashram, spiritual group, not as much in other parts of life.
(Mars on the cusp of the 12th house in Sagittarius) (You know how self righteous I can be)

With respect to martial arts, yes, in a way all you need is Mars. (with discipline of Saturn)

If you are talking about Aikido The way of harmony with the universe, you need Venus, (love,compassion, grace, artistry). Jupiter ( expansion, wisdom), and more.

You see, for Ueshiba Aikido, we need it all.

My teacher used to say, to become spiritual, you first must become human. Now some are already there, but I am sure, you have met, more than your share of those whose human values are a distant second to their animal survival instincts. In other words, they may lack a balance of the different elements:

Courage, and compassion Mars and Venus
Knowledge and Wisdom Mercury and Jupiter
Soul/Spirit and Discipline/Foresight Moon/Sun and Saturn


Tao says, the middle way, not too loving, not too strong

Too much compassion can weaken, for example, our children. Then need to develop courage by failing and getting up again.
In my opinion, the flimsy Aikido of some of the schools have gone too far toward the Venus side, might as well be a dance school.

How many of us (mostly males) look back on our Mars filled youth and have some regret? Mars also is passion, sex drive.

That's partly where I am coming from. I am mostly a Jupiterian, now immersed again in the world of Mars. Talking harmony and peace, to warriors talking of technique. I love them for it, but I am compelled by my nature to speak the way I do.

BTW, I agree with virtually everything you have said in this thread, but some of us need more extra help after class.

All the Best, Kevin, hope to meet in person.

Kevin Leavitt
01-16-2007, 03:59 PM
Thanks for the explaination Mike!

I think balance is needed between compassion, spirituality, and warrior values. Musashi I think does a good job of articulating this. (for warriors at least).

Those that ignore the compassion and spirituality aspects of themselves, will deal with it later on in life or after the battle.

Thanks again.

mriehle
01-16-2007, 06:33 PM
I remember a story told by George Simcox sensei who was at the dinner table with Koichi Tohei ...

I wonder if this is a separate incident or if the story got modified when Tohei told it:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=89338#post89338

mriehle
01-16-2007, 07:00 PM
Just to stir things up a bit:

There was some discussion of unbendable arm. I was playing with this a few nights ago with a new student. He's a pretty strong guy and he doesn't really go for the mystical ideas about ki. In fact, he was quite skeptical about it.

But it worked. I could do it, no problem.

Thing is, he's strong enough that if it were just about muscle I shouldn't have been able to.

So I looked really hard at what was happening. And I noticed that he really believed he was pushing as hard as he could but he wasn't. Somehow I was convincing him that he was pushing with all he had and he wasn't anywhere near that.

So I thought about it for a while.

I wonder if this isn't what often happens.

I've always maintained that the so-called "mystical ki" is really a phenomenon, not a force. It happens when physics, timing and (for lack of a better word) psychology all come together in a particular way. It looks mystical because a lot of what's happening is happening on a subconscious level.

You know, this would make sense even when dealing with other martial artists who don't buy in to ki. If I can't influence you to change what you are doing it can very well be said that your ki is stronger than mine. It hardly matters how you got there, you did.

Mike Galante
01-17-2007, 10:25 AM
Kevin my old friend, well said.

All the Best to you,

Walk with Ueshiba,

Mike

Kevin Leavitt
01-17-2007, 01:15 PM
Interesting points Michael Riehle!

Esaemann
01-22-2007, 11:45 AM
Mike,
Had an interesting conversation this weekend with my head Tai Chi (tui shou) instructor (Don) about this chat.
First off, we were talking about using jin (as opposed to muscling it) at the end of class.
The instructor in the form class said she was working on this by ... while bringing in the breath her rib cage relaxes and drops and the circle (including the back) around the pelvic area expands. On the exhale, contracting the perenium muscle. This helps with balance, as it consolidates everything into that pelvic area for a better center of gravity. E.g. I usually find I lose balance, especially with kicks, when much is going on in the upper body, instead on letting everything sink down. The power comes from the exhale actions.
Now Don stated that there are different ways to release jin. The way he thought about it while moving was relaxing with tension only at the instant of release; while meditating focusing on bringing a bright light into the bone marrow. I asked about the fascia that you mentioned. def. thin substance that connects muscle to bone (sound correct?) - since I didn't know. It sounds like (fascia or bone marrow) are different ways of achieving the same end. I've heard some about bone marrow cleansing and wonder if this is the same thing.

Eric

Kevin Leavitt
02-13-2007, 04:19 PM
I train army guys all the time, guys that have no use for, or no concept of KI...nor have most of them heard about it. I discuss it with them and use the word and demonstrate what I am talking about. conceptually I know of no other word to describe the totality about what KI represents. Any western term or word that I can think of limits the concept. Energy doesn't describe it.

Chuck Clark
02-22-2007, 03:54 PM
This is one of the best demonstrations of ki and projection of ki that I've seen. Enjoy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYSBqkx_gX4

mriehle
02-22-2007, 04:29 PM
It's...

...funny...

...sort of.

It'd be funnier if it were just a little further from the mark. Or closer. I can't decide.

grondahl
02-23-2007, 03:07 AM
The instructor in the form class said she was working on this by ... while bringing in the breath her rib cage relaxes and drops and the circle (including the back) around the pelvic area expands. On the exhale, contracting the perenium muscle. This helps with balance, as it consolidates everything into that pelvic area for a better center of gravity. E.g. I usually find I lose balance, especially with kicks, when much is going on in the upper body, instead on letting everything sink down. The power comes from the exhale actions.


Isn´t this just regular aikido? As practiced in exercises like 1 suburi, morote dori kokyo-ho etc?

Esaemann
02-23-2007, 08:13 AM
Peter,
Not sure if this was a question for me. I guess I'll give an answer since I wrote the post.

Its not something that is discussed/emphasized in my Aikido dojo, at least not in that manner, which I do understand. I.e. If its a basic principle of Aikido, I would still not pick it up through Aikido.

But, we all learn in different ways.

Can we change the title of this thread? I keep cracking up over someone's (I think Kevin's) early comment about Ki balls for Christmas.

Eric