PDA

View Full Version : Multiple opponents strategy


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Amassus
06-14-2010, 02:56 AM
Hello all.

On the Target Focus Training site (http://www.targetfocustraining.com/self-defense-against-multiple-attackers-part-3-of-3), they talk of ways of dealing with multiple opponents.


The points they make are this.

The answer to the problem of self defense against multiple attackers then is to:

1.Go on the attack
2.Injure them one-by-one
3.MOVE

These are the very principles my club uses for randori and I found it very reassuring. (injuring one-by-one can be changed to throwing them about one-by-one)

I'm opening up a discussion here on what people think about this and if they have any other pearls of wisdom in dealing with multiple attackers.

Happy training.
Dean.

SeiserL
06-14-2010, 06:16 AM
Use one to attack and defend against another.

ChrisHein
06-14-2010, 11:08 AM
We train 3 objectives while doing randori.

1.Do not let the attackers push you out of bounds (we set up a boundary)

2. Do not let the attackers disarm you (we do mostly armed randori)

3. Do not let the attackers control your weapon hand.

Surprisingly simple, yet if you can avoid all three of these things, you'll do pretty well.

Kevin Leavitt
06-14-2010, 08:34 PM
I agree generally with that website. Always attack, always win. irimi. However, always remember that the winner of the fight is the guy whose buddy shows up with a superior weapon.

Amir Krause
06-15-2010, 01:00 AM
Try to get them to "line up", so you only face them one at a time. Do not let them surround you (might be seen as the reason for the above points).

Amir

L. Camejo
06-15-2010, 01:23 AM
I agree generally with that website. Always attack, always win. irimi. However, always remember that the winner of the fight is the guy whose buddy shows up with a superior weapon.Hi Kevin,

I agree totally with your statement about ones buddy showing up with a superior weapon in a military or LE context, but how does that translate to the civilian ambush situation where multiple attackers (e.g. in a mugging) use predatory tactics to single out an individual for the purpose of domination and submission of that individual?

Assuming all preventive / evasion measures fail and the ambush begins, how does the "buddy with superior force" concept apply to the civilian who may not even get time to call 911?

Thanks for the food for thought.

LC

Michael Varin
06-15-2010, 02:29 AM
I agree totally with your statement about ones buddy showing up with a superior weapon in a military or LE context, but how does that translate to the civilian ambush situation where multiple attackers (e.g. in a mugging) use predatory tactics to single out an individual for the purpose of domination and submission of that individual?

Unfortunately, it translates to a very high degree.

Multiple attackers (and surprise) place one at a severe disadvantage. Even if one if armed, facing a group of motivated attackers will be a difficult challenge.

That's probably why it was so fascinating to Morihei.

Kevin Leavitt
06-15-2010, 06:35 AM
Hey Larry!

I think it is always important to keep that perspective in mind regardless of your situation. You could be doing well and winning the fight and then...boom...it is all over. So, we have to be careful I think to not get too involved or too enamored with our success or failure in these situations...they are what they are.

Of course, this doesn't necessarily help us technically learn how to deal with the situation! lol!

Simply keeping things in perspective is key I think.

That aside, as the article kind of discussed, exploiting your environment is key, and obviously keeping moving is key and trying to control the tempo of the fight and the whole OODA process.

It can be done for a little while actually.

My "multiple opponent" situation occurred a few years back in Mozambique. Told this one a few times already I think, but I think it illustrates controlling the environment.

Walking down the street with my boss... a few 100 meters out I could tell by the body language of about 15-20 males that we were walking straight into bad situation and were gonna get rolled for our wallets most likely if not roughed up a little too.

I told him to keep walking straight through them as I proceeded to cross the road to the other sidewalk, creating a big enough arc that they could not effectively contain both of us and still control the situation, as there were stores etc down the street, it became clear to them I think that I was throwing them a curve ball that they could to control or predict the outcome.

Once we closed within 15 meters or so, you could see their body language change up again and they collasped the circle and went back to talking.

I think staying on the outside of the circle, working the "triangles", and stacking them up is key.

Not that my randori in this video is the best, but I think I do okay in the beginning and it illustrates my thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0SfgAOvIDc

I am at the center of the triangle to start with. on "Go", I immediately pick a point on that triangle (uke) and go for him upsetting his OODA process by going directly in on him. taking up his position of the triangle, causing the other two guys to rush in to that base equally. (18 sec), I circle around the outside to my left leaving #1 uke on the inside as both uke come together on this point of the original triangle, I take up #2s position on the outside. #1 is still getting up, #2 is dealing with me, and #3 lines up behind #2 as he tries to orient again. then move to #3.

Now in the video, I got tangled up a little too much with #2 uke which is not good and gave #3 a little time to move...miliseconds matter. Then got tied up a little bit too much with #3 causing me to throw him left instead of right and circle around. This put me in the center of the triangle again, which is not where I should have been. If I would have moved to the outside of #3,then I would have stacked them all three up very neatly!

Anyway, I recover slightly and finally circle around the next one making up for what I screwed up and then start the "slalom" back to where #1 was to start with. at this point (28 sec)

Things kinda fall apart LOL. BUT I am trying to stay on the outside of the triangle and continue to close it down and make it smaller and attack ukes.

Not perfect, but okay.

If you have cars and obstacles to deal with, you can use them to channelize them so you deal with them one at a time.

more than 3 uke?

You do the same thing...you have to visualize the different triangles that you have between all of them. 5 ukes means...what...like 2 to 3 different triangles you have to collaspe.

Hard to visualize, I like to get all the uke on the mat and then position them and discuss where the triangles are and how to move in such a way that you control them and force ukes to deal with them.

Again, good stuff, it works for CQB, shooting as well as empty handed multiple opponents, basketball, soccer...what not, AND It is all stuff I learned from Aikido! ma'ai.

Kevin Leavitt
06-15-2010, 07:06 AM
Not to criticize anyone, heck I'll be the first to be my own critic.....this is a random video, first one I clicked on.

Uke are all lined up. she does a good job of entering intially, imo and closes down the triangle, all the are across the base of the triangle and she is at the apex. you see them all stack up in an inverted triangle like a flock of geese, which is good.

however she over focuses on the first uke when she should have by passed him and turns her back on the second on and enters the center of the triangle again. (7-8 seconds). You see #2 actually back off her to let her finish #1 when he could have been on her back. She should, imo, continued down the stack and out the back end of the perimeter. She then proceeds to deal with the uke from the center of the circle instead of working her way to the edges and outside.

Kevin Leavitt
06-15-2010, 07:08 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1AtFah8snM&feature=related

standing in the center waiting for uke to attack. you have to constantly enter...not wait.

Kevin Leavitt
06-15-2010, 07:12 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taaLZBOm2CA&feature=related

Not bad really IMO. She does a good job of "punching" through and moving forward and moves to the outside. As all of us, gets tied up a little and maybe waits for a spit second when she could move forward a little bit...but much better than my own technically I think.

dps
06-15-2010, 08:39 AM
Obviously the most important thing is to survive the attack and it is difficult to think of strategy while engaged but if you see an opening to escape, I would attack the weak link in the multiple attack. Attack the person that you can beat making that opening to escape.

If escape is not possible and it doesn't look hopeful for survival then attack the strongest link in the multiple attack. Attack the biggest, strongest person and disable him/her. If you do this at the beginning of the fight when you are fresh then maybe this will make the others slow down or stop to consider that if you can disable their strongest person they don't want to tangle with you giving you an opening to escape.

David

SeaGrass
06-15-2010, 12:04 PM
My sensei taught that you don't have to throw everyone everytime, simply use taisabaki to get out of the line of attack, evade, and only throw when you have good ma ai and in good position to throw. That little advice helped me tremedously during my randori test.

Kevin Leavitt
06-15-2010, 12:23 PM
True Bien, and most of us over engage. However, I do believe that you have to engage uke somehow to disrupt his ability to influence the fight. simply moving around and off the line of attack is not enough.

NagaBaba
06-15-2010, 12:26 PM
For me there are few basic concepts on this topic:
1. KISS - keep it simple, soldier - means the techniques should be very simple and done on tempo(rhythm) ONE. Tempo ONE, TWO takes already too long time.
2. Always moving out of the circle, as Kevin did on his video, choosing attacker by doing irimi (NEVER go back!). Breathing should be harmonized with this moving.
3. Be interested by next attacker when dealing with the actual attacker. Actual attacker is not interesting for you anymore. It gives you constant overview of environment.
4. Hips have to be always in rotation according to the rhythm of moving.

Jonathan
06-15-2010, 02:07 PM
Most of what I would offer as advice for randori others have already offered. But let me chime in anyway.

1. Never let uke remain behind you. That is, never allow yourself to become blind to any attacker for more than a beat or two. Always move so that you can see all of your attackers.
2. Try to cause your uke to interfere with each other. This is as much an effect of tai sabaki as it is of actual technique.
3. As some have observed, don't try to throw everybody. My female students typically last longer in randori because they don't attempt to engage every attacker. Sometimes slipping the attack and simply shoving uke, or sticking your hand in uke's face, or tripping uke is more useful than anything else you could do.
4. Don't watch the effect of your actions on uke. Don't focus on any one attacker completely. All the attackers are like the arms and legs of a single entity. Keep soft eye focus and observe the whole "entity."
5. Practice a lot!

Mikemac
06-15-2010, 02:37 PM
From the article....

If you think in terms of being the one with the problem, then that’s you, stuck with solving multiple problems.

If, instead, you think in terms of BEING the problem and revel in making it as bad as possible for them, you’ll be giving the still-conscious ones second thoughts.

I never really thought about it that way before. i tried to imagine myself in that situation and then seeing the attackers from both perspectives. The latter thought of being THEIR problem really changed the way I saw them and myself.

Thank you for posting this.......

Adam Huss
06-15-2010, 10:30 PM
Some of the videos posted bring up an interesting thing I've noticed and have been thinking about for a little while. I've noticed in many randori that I've seen on Youtube, uke pretty much only do grabs (mostly double shoulder grab). Is something that is taught/practiced at some schools?

Amassus
06-16-2010, 03:30 AM
Not that my randori in this video is the best, but I think I do okay in the beginning and it illustrates my thoughts.

Thanks for putting yourself out their Kevin. I always welcome your thoughts. It's great to have the video, and the thoughts behind the actions, written down.

Thank you for posting this.......
You are welcome, Michael. My sensei always stresses the need to go looking for an uke, don't wait for them to attack. Move purposefully towards one of them and force them to react. Then try and collapse the triangles, as Kevin says.

Great stuff guys. Some good points.

Dean.

DonMagee
06-16-2010, 07:41 AM
I have practiced trying to make distance and place obstacles between my opponents and myself. The theory is this will give me time to arm myself and hope that three conditions are met.

1) I don't miss.
2) There is not more than 7 of them.
3) Gunshots hurt enough they won't continue.

Aiki1
06-16-2010, 11:00 AM
For me, Randori is an exercise in decisive, proactive positioning, movement, efficiency, and technique, all within the context of safety and flow. It isn't complete jiyuwaza.

There are of course many different tenets that help to understand how to approach it, some that I use are:

Be Proactive - Never wait for another person to initiate, even if this means simply choosing to pass someone by. Don't worry, they'll find you again later. :)

Never back up (if you can help it.)

Adhere to "Aiki-engagement" - that is, don't engage in a manner that gives the other person an advantage or control over you. Part of this means stay loose and don't stay with any one person for any length of time, trying to do something. The longer you do, the more likely they, or someone else, will get you.

Deal with them one-by-one, but in relation to all of them.

Move, move, move. Again, don't get stuck on a technique, or one person.

Control the space through positioning as much as possible. Try for the open space, with everyone in front of you. Stay on the outside as much as possible.

Do technique when it flows. When you do, be decisive.

Don't get caught up in frenetic energy. The goal is to survive. There are technical and strategic ways of dealing with every situation. That's part of the practice.

Andrew Macdonald
06-16-2010, 11:09 AM
i would basically same the same as above

a lot of lateral movement
take on the closest one each time
act fast, do damage quickly

other advice i have been given

if the situation allows, i.e. if there is one guy braver than the rest and comes forward first, mess him up bad enough the other lose the will to try

Kevin Leavitt
06-16-2010, 08:04 PM
i'm not big on lateral movement, it does nothing IMO to gain you any ground, and it allows the other opponents to close down on you.

Irimi and spirals, irimi and spirals. It escapes me right now, but someone posted some really good illustrations about 3 years back about this subject and closing distance. Mainly working with guns, and closing distance, but the same concept applies.

dps
06-16-2010, 09:43 PM
i'm not big on lateral movement, it does nothing IMO to gain you any ground, and it allows the other opponents to close down on you.

Irimi and spirals, irimi and spirals. It escapes me right now, but someone posted some really good illustrations about 3 years back about this subject and closing distance. Mainly working with guns, and closing distance, but the same concept applies.

I believe that was David Valdez.

David

danj
06-17-2010, 01:15 AM
Hi All ,
not too much to add but warm fuzzies
Dean,
I have had the opportunity to do some TFT with some people from Sydney, its great stuff and really informed my aiki. The website is a bit hypey but the core principles and practice is great simulation.

I really liked Kevin's story from Africa - a self defence great. Also the OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) idea of Christensen? and forcing the uke into this loop to put them on the back foot. Its a nice modern explanation of the extend ki, cut first traditional aiki methodologies and a game changer for randoori, multiple attacks changing the poor beleaguered nage into the hunter. FWIW I have hunted ukes in this manner, sometime just as they are getting up, drawn out an attack from them before they are really ready to deliver..its a nice feeling to own 'the mat' and get in the zone at least for a few seconds anyway

best,
dan

L. Camejo
06-18-2010, 11:27 PM
Hey Larry!

I think it is always important to keep that perspective in mind regardless of your situation. You could be doing well and winning the fight and then...boom...it is all over. So, we have to be careful I think to not get too involved or too enamored with our success or failure in these situations...they are what they are.
Hi Kevin,

I've been away for a while so I haven't been able to follow up on the thread since my question.

I totally agree about your comment on winning above and not getting enamored with ones success. Imho if these emotions come into play to the point where performance is affected something is missing in ones training if it is with this objective in mind.

The reason I asked the question was that in my own multiple attacker encounter I was singled out by 8 guys, there was no-one (on my side at least) coming with superior firepower and the cops were over a block away and oblivious to the situation.

Re-thinking that encounter I had - I think the idea of someone coming along with more firepower on the attacker's side makes the urgency of ending the conflict as quickly as possible even more important.

This actually goes back to the multiple attacker concept where it is important to control the speed and rhythm of the engagement by always being a few steps ahead of your attackers. OODA loop indeed. :)

Thanks you helped me to sort of solve my own question. :)

Happy training.

Larry

L. Camejo
06-18-2010, 11:33 PM
For me, Randori is an exercise in decisive, proactive positioning, movement, efficiency, and technique, all within the context of safety and flow. It isn't complete jiyuwaza.

There are of course many different tenets that help to understand how to approach it, some that I use are:

Be Proactive - Never wait for another person to initiate, even if this means simply choosing to pass someone by. Don't worry, they'll find you again later. :)

Never back up (if you can help it.)

Adhere to "Aiki-engagement" - that is, don't engage in a manner that gives the other person an advantage or control over you. Part of this means stay loose and don't stay with any one person for any length of time, trying to do something. The longer you do, the more likely they, or someone else, will get you.

Deal with them one-by-one, but in relation to all of them.

Move, move, move. Again, don't get stuck on a technique, or one person.

Control the space through positioning as much as possible. Try for the open space, with everyone in front of you. Stay on the outside as much as possible.

Do technique when it flows. When you do, be decisive.

Don't get caught up in frenetic energy. The goal is to survive. There are technical and strategic ways of dealing with every situation. That's part of the practice.
Brilliant post! I think this covers all of the core aspects of good multiple attacker training.

Best
LC