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tim evans
06-10-2010, 04:48 PM
Some type of ryotetori waza prehaps?

Robert Calton
06-10-2010, 05:06 PM
"Uke negashi tenkan" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT846dqleq0) looks to be something along those lines.

Good luck! :)

ChrisHein
06-10-2010, 06:32 PM
Techniques from ryokata dori would be a good choice.

Like:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=256

Or techniques from Mune dori, like:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=681

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=657

Hope that helps.

RED
06-10-2010, 08:26 PM
I don't know if that is even really an attack and would require something. I mean it is antagonistic. But it doesn't seem like an attack you'd have to worry about. Usually shoving is followed up by an actual attack.

Ketsan
06-10-2010, 09:04 PM
Good posture, good timing and a small flick of the hips. Eye rolling optional. :D

Michael Hackett
06-10-2010, 10:06 PM
The chest push is a common form of attack, usually by young men. You see it in schoolyard encounters and around bars all the time, at least here in the West.

Adam Huss
06-10-2010, 11:13 PM
Tim,
I'll throw out a couple suggestions specific to chest push as just about any technique that deals with any grab or thrusting punch would be applicable.

Ubishime (finger lock). Rather than just trying to grab uke's fingers out of the air try shuffle-in push block w/forward hand guiding uke's fingers into your rear hand to apply ubishime. From there pick any number of techniques.

Hijiosae (elbow control/pin). Let uke's hand make contact with your chest but maintain strong posture. Move back slightly if you feel you must but you want uke's elbow to lock out. Simply bring up your hand that is on same side (mirroring) as uke's pushing arm...keeping your elbow down and in while cuping/holding uke's elbow from underneath. Lean into ukes hand with your strong stance...pushing off that back leg, while your hand is putting pressure up and slightly toward you to maintain that lock and kind of holding it your chest. Then pick a technique from their. Make sense? LOL, sorry I know that was confusing.

Adam Huss
06-10-2010, 11:26 PM
Some supplemental video to help clarify;

disclaimers: so this isn't from chest push, its from shoulder-grab face punch...but it shows the elbow-locky thingy I was trying to explain in the previous post (probably more correct to call it hijishime, but who knows..I kinda just did it on the fly). Its at the :49 second mark...sorry I don't have a clip of just the chest push but you can just skip to the 49 sec mark and it's there (btw. we actually do technique from chest push a lot, but I don't think its on any testing requirements).

And I agree with you that any ryotetori should work with chest push as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2hSGUmU0b4

ChrisHein
06-11-2010, 01:30 AM
I don't know if that is even really an attack and would require something. I mean it is antagonistic. But it doesn't seem like an attack you'd have to worry about. Usually shoving is followed up by an actual attack.

If they are pushing you off of something (like a cliff) or into something (like traffic) it is most decidedly something to worry about. Being pushed by someone with bad intentions can cost you your life.

chillzATL
06-11-2010, 06:39 AM
If they are pushing you off of something (like a cliff) or into something (like traffic) it is most decidedly something to worry about. Being pushed by someone with bad intentions can cost you your life.

I don't think you even need to take it to extremes like this. If you're not willing to react to someone invading your space with not-warm intentions, you're not going to react if they follow up with anything else either.

Your first vid is how I have responded to this in the past and it worked just fine.

phitruong
06-11-2010, 08:36 AM
kick the balls. jab the throat. ...oh wait, this is aikido. damn! nevermind! need more coffee this morning. :)

MM
06-11-2010, 08:56 AM
WWUD?
What Would Ueshiba Do?

According to historical articles and interviews, Ueshiba pretty much neutralized a push to the chest while just standing or sitting. Since the push was neutralized, Ueshiba was entirely free to move and do whatever he wanted.

I guess the first thing I'd wonder is which part are you wanting to train? The aiki based part that Ueshiba exemplified? Or the jujutsu based part that Ueshiba showed with techniques? For Ueshiba, his aiki allowed spontaneous jujutsu techniques to happen.

Are you working on aiki to allow jujutsu to happen? Or are you focusing on jujutsu to hopefully build aiki? The former is worth training while the latter will never happen.

Jujutsu = Using timing in accord with physical movement to lead an attacker in an effort to effect a disruption in structure.

Aiki = Centrally held Self with opposing spirals that instantaneously matches incoming energy in an appropriate manner to destabilize attacker's center on contact.

Walker
06-11-2010, 11:30 AM
kick the balls. jab the throat. ...oh wait, this is aikido. damn! nevermind! need more coffee this morning. :)

Actually it is kick to the balls and apply aiki. :D

phitruong
06-11-2010, 11:44 AM
Actually it is kick to the balls and apply aiki. :D

does apply aiki the same as apply tiger balm? if it is then that's just cruel! first you kick him in the gonad, then apply tiger balm to the same place? that's is just inhuman and against all Geneva conventions. have you no love and compassion to your fellow man? have you not understand the do of aiki? .... hold on, i need to go wash my hands off first, the tiger balm is getting into my eyes and other places.... :D

RED
06-11-2010, 11:55 AM
The chest push is a common form of attack, usually by young men. You see it in schoolyard encounters and around bars all the time, at least here in the West.

I wouldn't exactly call it a committed attack. Let's be honest here. Half the time when guys circle each other, take their shirts off and start chest shoving, they are just stalling hoping some one break it up......They call it "Redneck-shi-do". There should be schools for this discipline :p

phitruong
06-11-2010, 12:15 PM
take their shirts off and start chest shoving, they are just stalling hoping some one break it up......

if women do this more, guys wouldn't spend time fighting each others. prevention should be better than learning counter techniques. :)

RED
06-11-2010, 12:30 PM
if women do this more, guys wouldn't spend time fighting each others. prevention should be better than learning counter techniques. :)

Actually, I was under the assumption that all grievances between men were, in some way directly or indirectly, caused by women. :p

Keith Larman
06-11-2010, 12:48 PM
To stay serious and focused, the more subtle explanation of these things has more to do with testosterone and aggression than with the women involved. When it gets to the level of serious shoving often there is precious little holding things back -- i.e., the thread is about to break. For some it might be posturing, but for most (IME) it is a sign that things have escalated to a breaking point. That shove is often a "go ahead, take a swing, give me a reason to kick your ass." act. Basically you're often seeing barely contained rage. It is very dangerous indeed and one would be quite unwise to just shrug it off as somehow being an uncommitted attack.

Get a few testosterone shots sometime and see how quickly that rage can go from mildly pissed to "I can't see through the blood in my eyes".

chillzATL
06-11-2010, 01:09 PM
I wouldn't exactly call it a committed attack. Let's be honest here. Half the time when guys circle each other, take their shirts off and start chest shoving, they are just stalling hoping some one break it up......They call it "Redneck-shi-do". There should be schools for this discipline :p

I tihnk that's a naive view to have Maggie. I don't argue that it often happens that way, but to assume that is setting yourself up for disaster. To simply let someone invade your space, someone who is obviously NOT your friend, is a foolish mistake to make. I have seen someone pushed so hard they came off their feet and landed on their head, on concrete, because they stood there smiling and unconcerned when someone came to shove them like that. It is neither an over-reaction or un-aiki to protect your space.

Adam Huss
06-11-2010, 01:32 PM
I think the OP asked about techniques to deal with chest push, not for a debate on the practicality of attacks used in aikido. Maybe this course of debate is best for a thread about "practicality of attacks in aikido," which I am sure would generate lengthy discussion.

RED
06-11-2010, 01:59 PM
I tihnk that's a naive view to have Maggie. I don't argue that it often happens that way, but to assume that is setting yourself up for disaster. To simply let someone invade your space, someone who is obviously NOT your friend, is a foolish mistake to make. I have seen someone pushed so hard they came off their feet and landed on their head, on concrete, because they stood there smiling and unconcerned when someone came to shove them like that. It is neither an over-reaction or un-aiki to protect your space.

I'm just going to leave it at that I'm not entirely too worried about this one.

I also hate the idea of training for specific attacks. Train in the form and principles, then you don't really have to worry what type of attack it is. Shomanuchi is often criticized saying that it isn't a realistic attack. I defend it. These classic atemi force the Aikidoka to train in the forms and principles of Aikido, and put waza to muscle memory.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I'm not going to train for a fight that might never happen. It is naive to only train in techniques against only the attacks you can perceive happening. Train in Aikido instead, commit Aikido to your muscle memory and reflex. Not some random waza that can only be used against shoves, jabs or thumb wrestlers.
You aren't suppose to sit and think about how some one attacks, and what " tricks" you know against it. You are suppose to just react. And this type of unique attack specific distracts from Aikido principle and form.

I think my point is that this type of martial approach is very one dimensional. It distracts from learning Aikido, it focuses on learning jitsu instead.

My stone opinion. Take it or leave it. Good advise or rubbish. Don't care if anyone agrees. LOL

tim evans
06-11-2010, 02:07 PM
I think the OP asked about techniques to deal with chest push, not for a debate on the practicality of attacks used in aikido. Maybe this course of debate is best for a thread about "practicality of attacks in aikido," which I am sure would generate lengthy discussion.

Thanks to all who posted and for the video links very practical responses to this paticular attack :D

tim evans
06-11-2010, 02:10 PM
I'm just going to leave it at that I'm not entirely too worried about this one.

I also hate the idea of training for specific attacks. Train in the form and principles, then you don't really have to worry what type of attack it is. Shomanuchi is often criticized saying that it isn't a realistic attack. I defend it. These classic atemi force the Aikidoka to train in the forms and principles of Aikido, and put waza to muscle memory.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I'm not going to train for a fight that might never happen. It is naive to only train in techniques against only the attacks you can perceive happening. Train in Aikido instead, commit Aikido to your muscle memory and reflex. Not some random waza that can only be used against shoves, jabs or thumb wrestlers.
You aren't suppose to sit and think about how some one attacks, and what " tricks" you know against it. You are suppose to just react. And this type of unique attack specific distracts from Aikido principle and form.

I think my point is that this type of martial approach is very one dimensional. It distracts from learning Aikido, it focuses on learning jitsu instead.

My stone opinion. Take it or leave it. Good advise or rubbish. Don't care if anyone agrees. LOL

Well Maggie I,ll leave it LOL

dps
06-11-2010, 02:16 PM
Any of Shodokan's Atemi Waza;

Shomen ate
Aigamae ate
Gyakugamae ate
Gedan ate
Ushiro ate

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10a.html

David

chillzATL
06-11-2010, 02:24 PM
I'm just going to leave it at that I'm not entirely too worried about this one.

I also hate the idea of training for specific attacks. Train in the form and principles, then you don't really have to worry what type of attack it is. Shomanuchi is often criticized saying that it isn't a realistic attack. I defend it. These classic atemi force the Aikidoka to train in the forms and principles of Aikido, and put waza to muscle memory.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I'm not going to train for a fight that might never happen. It is naive to only train in techniques against only the attacks you can perceive happening. Train in Aikido instead, commit Aikido to your muscle memory and reflex. Not some random waza that can only be used against shoves, jabs or thumb wrestlers.
You aren't suppose to sit and think about how some one attacks, and what " tricks" you know against it. You are suppose to just react. And this type of unique attack specific distracts from Aikido principle and form.

I think my point is that this type of martial approach is very one dimensional. It distracts from learning Aikido, it focuses on learning jitsu instead.

My stone opinion. Take it or leave it. Good advise or rubbish. Don't care if anyone agrees. LOL

By not training to protect your space, assuming that "this isn't a serious attack" aren't you basically doing the exact same thing that you seem to be admonishing in the above?

RED
06-11-2010, 02:32 PM
By not training to protect your space, assuming that "this isn't a serious attack" aren't you basically doing the exact same thing that you seem to be admonishing in the above?

ummm.... Extension and ma are principles of Aikido. I do believe I said my one focus is the training of these principles and forms.
So, no I'm not doing the same thing I admonish. lol

chillzATL
06-11-2010, 02:37 PM
ummm.... Extension and ma are principles of Aikido. I do believe I said my one focus is the training of these principles and forms.

But you seemed to completely shrug of the notion of someone walking up to you to shove you in the chest as "not being a serious attack". In essence effectively ignoring the principle of ma.

lbb
06-11-2010, 02:40 PM
By not training to protect your space, assuming that "this isn't a serious attack" aren't you basically doing the exact same thing that you seem to be admonishing in the above?

Well, there are also assumptions made whenever someone postulates a hypothetical attack. I agree with what was said earlier, that this seems like a common schoolboy (or grown-up schoolboy) "attack"...but is it a real threat? Kinda hard to say either way, categorically. If your intent is really to clean someone's clock, it doesn't seem like the most effective opening move -- maybe more like an attempt to intimidate, most likely by someone who doesn't have any fighting skills and is hoping you have even less :D I think what I'd say is that while you can't really ignore it, it's a mistake to conclude that you must respond as if this "attack" is a serious threat. Options? Too many to list, really.

chillzATL
06-11-2010, 02:55 PM
Well, there are also assumptions made whenever someone postulates a hypothetical attack. I agree with what was said earlier, that this seems like a common schoolboy (or grown-up schoolboy) "attack"...but is it a real threat? Kinda hard to say either way, categorically. If your intent is really to clean someone's clock, it doesn't seem like the most effective opening move -- maybe more like an attempt to intimidate, most likely by someone who doesn't have any fighting skills and is hoping you have even less :D I think what I'd say is that while you can't really ignore it, it's a mistake to conclude that you must respond as if this "attack" is a serious threat. Options? Too many to list, really.

Hi Mary,

I wasn't so much concerned about it being a serious threat or not. I know that it can be, but at the same time, it usually isn't. My concern centers more around letting someone invade your space willy-nilly. If you're going to let someone get close enough to you to shove you, then they're also close enough to do a lot worse and your ability to react to that decreases. That doesn't mean you clean someones clock just because they come at you, but at the same time you can nicely get the message across that coming closer might not be what they want to do :)

C. David Henderson
06-11-2010, 03:00 PM
FWIW,

In terms of training traditional forms and developing the ability to respond to "any" attack, the fact that traditional attacks are stylized implies to me that any single one is not going to make you proficient at improvising effectively against an attack with a very different form. Practicing the kind of stylized "shoving attack" seen in some of the posted video likely would reduce the chances of freezing if you did need to respond.

Another example -- ushiro ryote dori irimi nage is a bit different than shomen uchi irimi nage and training in one won't teach you everything you'd like to know about another.

As to shoving as an attack, I have to agree with Mary -- impossible for me to say in the abstract whether its an "attack" you need to respond to or not. I've been shoved up against a wall, hard; I can see how it could be the start of something serious.

As for tiger balm, if you just pulled an all-nighter but have to attend a class or meeting, a small dab on the forehead can keep your eyes open even when you are sleeping. It doesn't help so much if you're called upon to say something half-way coherent, though. And you still need to be careful where you place your fingers after applying.

chillzATL
06-11-2010, 03:07 PM
As for tiger balm, if you just pulled an all-nighter but have to attend a class or meeting, a small dab on the forehead can keep your eyes open even when you are sleeping. It doesn't help so much if you're called upon to say something half-way coherent, though. And you still need to be careful where you place your fingers after applying.

Tropic Thunder, and Phi, have forever ruined my ability to think about Tiger Balm in any serious way..

RED
06-11-2010, 03:16 PM
But you seemed to completely shrug of the notion of someone walking up to you to shove you in the chest as "not being a serious attack". In essence effectively ignoring the principle of ma.

I shrug off the concept of obsessing over "hopefully being attacked some day" in general. I shrug off worrying about crap frankly. Worry about learning the principles and forms of Aikido, they encompass all attacks, not just random bar shoving.

Of course it is an attack. I can think of worse attacks, I can think of lesser attacks. I don't consider it greatly committed because of typical socio- aspect of why and reasons in which people typically start shoving matches. Frankly shoving matches tend to happen in groups, and typically it starts off shoving because the parties involved are hoping it gets broken up...that's just the socio-aspect of it. If a guy honestly wants to attack some one, he's gonna throw a punch, grab for some vital points, or grab a weapon. He's not going to waste time shouting, beaitng his chest, and shoving randomly. Shoving is typically a warning. and it displays a mentality of some one who doesn't want to get into a fight,they just want to plume their feathers...typically.

Can you fall down and hit your head if some one pushes you..sure! Hell I've fallen on my head by some one shoving by me on a subway in New York. I mean it can happen. It's not going to make me wanna go out and train for the one time in my life some one might push me in the chest. I'm just going to train in Aikido, and not obsess about any fight I might get into some day. I'd like to remind people that we are unfortunate if some one attacks us some day...not lucky that we get a chance to try out our kung-fu-bullshido. Focusing on hopefully being attacked in this way some day is really negative frankly.

My point is that attack specific training is limiting, and keeps people from learning Aikido. You can learn waza and jitsu...but not Aikido that way.

Hey maybe it's because I'm a chick? I'm just not very likely to get into a match of chest beating any times soon.

Basia Halliop
06-11-2010, 03:40 PM
When it gets to the level of serious shoving often there is precious little holding things back -- i.e., the thread is about to break. For some it might be posturing, but for most (IME) it is a sign that things have escalated to a breaking point. That shove is often a "go ahead, take a swing, give me a reason to kick your ass." act. Basically you're often seeing barely contained rage. It is very dangerous indeed and one would be quite unwise to just shrug it off as somehow being an uncommitted attack.

If I'm understanding you, what you're describing sounds more to me like a threat or warning signal than an attack itself... potentially very dangerous because of what it predicts and because of the psychology it's telling you about, more than it is dangerous in and of itself in a directly physical way. I.e., dangerous because they're on the verge of attacking you in a more serious way, rather than because they already have?

In any case, how do you respond to it? Do you respond in a physical way with some 'technique' (beyond stepping out of the way)? If as you say it's a way of saying 'give me a reason to kick your ass', or issuing a challenge, then does that mean there's still a chance of just walking away?

RED
06-11-2010, 04:05 PM
I don't know how many of us have been shoved before. But in my experience, if I just throw your hands up and say "whoa take it easy" it's over. Shoving is usually posturing, and it is usually done to encourage you to swing at them to justify a fight happening. Just don't let a fight happen.

Keith Larman
06-11-2010, 05:13 PM
If I'm understanding you, what you're describing sounds more to me like a threat or warning signal than an attack itself... potentially very dangerous because of what it predicts and because of the psychology it's telling you about, more than it is dangerous in and of itself in a directly physical way. I.e., dangerous because they're on the verge of attacking you in a more serious way, rather than because they already have?

In any case, how do you respond to it? Do you respond in a physical way with some 'technique' (beyond stepping out of the way)? If as you say it's a way of saying 'give me a reason to kick your ass', or issuing a challenge, then does that mean there's still a chance of just walking away?

I think it is a remarkably difficult question which is why I find it so bothersome that some kind of wave it away giving a simple answer. That shove could be posturing. But it could also be someone near the breaking point.

The problem with these discussions is that context matters a great deal. And what you do will depend greatly on that context. The danger here, in my mind at least, is the dismissal of these things as being "just" one thing or another. Life is rarely that simple.

I've been shoved. I've been in fights. I've been attacked. Sometimes it is just posturing -- once was a guy at a restaurant who was yelling at his wife/girlfriend/date/whatever. He was getting *very* agitated and I went up with another friend trying to calm him down. He gave me a not-so-friendly shove. However, I grounded myself and barely moved. That was enough with this guy to start backing down (not to mention the guy I was with was even bigger than me). I wasn't threatening, I was trying my best to calm him. When he shoved my reaction was to ground it but I was ready to take him down depending on how he behaved. Once he realized I wasn't going to be easy to push around and that I wasn't at all impressed with him he seemed to lose his desire to get more angry. But he still stomped off in a huff.

Another time a guy pushed at a bar totally unprovoked (best I could tell). I was just walking through the crowd and he decided I was too close/had the wrong look/whatever. He pushed hard and I didn't see it coming. I was pushed into some other guys and the guy came at me very quickly only to get slammed by the bouncer who saw the whole thing.

Those are my experiences. I don't have easy answers. And *that* I think is the "correct answer" -- namely that it ain't quite so simple. I just caution people against thinking that a push is "just" one thing or another. Sometimes a shove is a blind rage attack. Sometimes it leads to something else. Just be careful of assuming you're going to be able to just put your hands up and say "whoaaa, cool down". What you might get is a punch to the face for your trouble.

Janet Rosen
06-11-2010, 05:34 PM
Just be careful of assuming you're going to be able to just put your hands up and say "whoaaa, cool down". What you might get is a punch to the face for your trouble.

Yep.

Garth Jones
06-11-2010, 05:41 PM
My point is that attack specific training is limiting, and keeps people from learning Aikido. You can learn waza and jitsu...but not Aikido that way.

Well, that's certainly true if the practice is to work on a specific technique for a specific attack without any consideration for the generality of the attack or technique - say, only teaching iriminage as a response to a shomenuchi attack. However, I think it's perfectly valid to study, say, iriminage, from various attacks (including a chest shove, I suppose). We all need to work on waza to get at the underlying concepts of aikido. With the practice of many different techniques from a variety of attacks we gain, hopefully, a deeper understanding of timing, distance, connection, posture, etc. etc.

Cheers,
Garth

L. Camejo
06-11-2010, 06:52 PM
Sometimes a shove is a blind rage attack. Sometimes it leads to something else. Just be careful of assuming you're going to be able to just put your hands up and say "whoaaa, cool down". What you might get is a punch to the face for your trouble.
Man Keith, you took my post right out of my fingers :). The punch to the face after the shove is the usual chain of events I've seen. The other version involves the victim who is shoved into another attacker or so that he falls and then the shover's pals swoop in and start kicking the crap out of you. Saw a guy do some months in the hospital with a broken rib that punctured his lung on that one. Another had a fractured skull after being kicked up while on the ground.

Regarding what Aikido waza response to use, there are really too many to name simply because ones ma ai in Aikido allows many options from mere tai sabaki to atemi waza to waki gatame and other arm techniques to kotegaeshi. Even moreso if one trains a lot of fast paced randori with quality attacks from close range.

Imho if one gets shoved to start with then as far as Aikido training goes your ma ai and reaction needs a lot of work. I think what Keith and Jason said are very correct overall. Honestly if one thinks that allowing your ma ai to be invaded is Aikido well... :rolleyes:

Personally I think it is important to have some experience in these sorts of things before tossing around theories based on... well nothing. :)

Best
LC

Michael Varin
06-11-2010, 09:17 PM
I don't know how many of us have been shoved before. But in my experience, if I just throw your hands up and say "whoa take it easy" it's over. Shoving is usually posturing, and it is usually done to encourage you to swing at them to justify a fight happening. Just don't let a fight happen.and
Sometimes a shove is a blind rage attack. Sometimes it leads to something else. Just be careful of assuming you're going to be able to just put your hands up and say "whoaaa, cool down". What you might get is a punch to the face for your trouble.
I think Keith makes a very good point, but I do understand where Maggie is coming from. I have seen this situation go both ways a number of times.

However, an interesting question is raised: Once "push to the chest" is mentioned as an attack, almost everyone seems to instantly default to, 1) posturing, 2) push quickly followed by punch. Are either of these two situations what was originally contemplated in techniques we see against pushes?

I would say, no. I think the situation is closer to this:

The other version involves the victim who is shoved into another attacker or so that he falls and then the shover's pals swoop in and start kicking the crap out of you.
Not responding in the situation Larry articulated is very bad. Also, this situation, more than the others, sheds light on why your response may look the way it does in aikido versus just standing your ground and punching the guy in the face.

But, just like Keith said, much of this is contextual.

Kevin Leavitt
06-11-2010, 09:20 PM
whatever it is, a shove is typically about off balancing you. Whatever they follow it up with is what they follow it up with. The question I have is..."what is your native or spontaneous response to this?"

Can you maintain your integrity or base?

You can throw your hands up, throw a punch or try to move out of the way after the shove. Whatever you do, you ain't gonna do much until you regain your center/base/balance.

So until you can maintain and restore your base/structure your dead in the water. What we should be training in response to the shove is how do I do this?

If you can maintain your base/structure you really are free to do whatever as it no longer really matters much what his intentions may be....the base response would be the same. Shake hands, hit him, or neutralize, or block..whatever.

Michael Varin
06-11-2010, 09:29 PM
Jujutsu = Using timing in accord with physical movement to lead an attacker in an effort to effect a disruption in structure.

Aiki = Centrally held Self with opposing spirals that instantaneously matches incoming energy in an appropriate manner to destabilize attacker's center on contact.

Alright! You know I love Japanese word = ??? ;)

Do I sense another definition thread?

RED
06-11-2010, 10:56 PM
Well, that's certainly true if the practice is to work on a specific technique for a specific attack without any consideration for the generality of the attack or technique - say, only teaching iriminage as a response to a shomenuchi attack. However, I think it's perfectly valid to study, say, iriminage, from various attacks (including a chest shove, I suppose). We all need to work on waza to get at the underlying concepts of aikido. With the practice of many different techniques from a variety of attacks we gain, hopefully, a deeper understanding of timing, distance, connection, posture, etc. etc.

Cheers,
Garth

I just really believe in letting Aikido breath. Don't try to force techniques in places. Just study Aikido.
I've seen people do it, I've done it, everyone does it from time to time. They have a technique they want to try out or do from a specific attack, and they force it. I think at that point out Aikido is awkward and we're taking a step back in Aikido.

It's sort of like trying to force square pegs in round holes.
That's why I'm animate about training in the principles first and foremost.

dps
06-11-2010, 10:57 PM
A shove whether it is a light push or a raging attack is an unwanted invasion into your personal space and requires a response if you want it not to happen again.

A response of "whoaaa, cool down" is ridiculous. The attacker needs to know that the push is something they do not want to do again.

A well trained person should be able to respond at least to the point of unbalancing and gaining control of the attacker. After that whatever appropriate is should be done.

David

RED
06-11-2010, 11:17 PM
What, "whoa cool down" has saved my ass more than once. :p

Sometimes there is nothing more off balancing than some one reacting to defuse a situation, when you were trying to incite the situation.(it takes two to fight anyways.)
IMO:
I don't promote this "need" control or to school my attacker, or inform my attacker of how they should be or not be acting.
The only person's behavior you can control is your own in the end. No matter how great of a martial artist you are, that's your only guarantee. A well trained martial artist knows this.

Gorgeous George
06-11-2010, 11:53 PM
Any of Shodokan's Atemi Waza;

Shomen ate
Aigamae ate
Gyakugamae ate
Gedan ate
Ushiro ate

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10a.html

David

I don't like shodokan aikido, but I really like that gedan ate...

Gorgeous George
06-12-2010, 12:06 AM
What, "whoa cool down" has saved my ass more than once. :p

Sometimes there is nothing more off balancing than some one reacting to defuse a situation, when you were trying to incite the situation.(it takes two to fight anyways.)
IMO:
I don't promote this "need" control or to school my attacker, or inform my attacker of how they should be or not be acting.
The only person's behavior you can control is your own in the end. No matter how great of a martial artist you are, that's your only guarantee. A well trained martial artist knows this.

I once got asked by a drunken man why i was looking at him; i explained very calmly and eloquently that i was not wearing my glasses, and so could not see him - hence, i wasn't looking at him.
Unfortunately it didn't 'save my ass', by off balancing and defusing the situation: he gave it a few seconds and attempted to headutt me.

I thought aikido was precisely about controlling an attacker - i.e., controlling the behaviour of another? I certainly thought that was what i was doing when i was pinning people at training all those times...

On topic: i'm surprised nobody's posted a clip of Gozo Shioda responding to a two-handed chest push by like, pushing back with his chest...i doubt i've ever watched a clip of him in which he doesn't perform it.

9 seconds in here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfFnrdW5ifU

Michael Hackett
06-12-2010, 01:19 AM
Males probably have a different experience with "chest pushes" than women do. I've rarely seen one woman push another that way, but have seen women push men against the the chest. What seems the most typical is one individual pushing another repeatedly until something else takes place. A couple of violent pushes and the intended victim runs away or lashes back and thus gives an excuse for a fight or pile-on attack. Context is the key issue, but don't discount the chest push as an attack - the intention is to overcome you through intimidation or through force.

The OP was interested in learning what others thought an effective Aikido technique might be for these situations. Virtually all are effective and others might be easier and more efficient. Personally, I favor gokyo for a quick, down 'n dirty response to a linear attack like the chest push. That said, maybe someday I can learn to respond with something like Shioda Sensei could do.

dps
06-12-2010, 01:33 AM
Also remember you will react as you have trained.

If you are repeatedly bullied this way you might want to train on how to react to this specific attack.

David

ChrisHein
06-12-2010, 03:06 AM
Alright! You know I love Japanese word = ??? ;)

Do I sense another definition thread?

Please say we don't have to go down this road again.

C. David Henderson
06-13-2010, 09:19 AM
I just really believe in letting Aikido breath[e]. Don't try to force techniques in places. Just study Aikido.

This is something many of us can agree with, but, FWIW, I think you then go astray in seeking to apply the principle you recite in support of your broader position:

I've seen people do it, I've done it, everyone does it from time to time. They have a technique they want to try out or do from a specific attack, and they force it. I think at that point out Aikido is awkward and we're taking a step back in Aikido.

Why do you suppose they "force it?"

Because there is something about that specific attack that the particular Aikido technique is poorly designed to handle, or because they're just beginning to study the pinciples of action inhering in that particular confrontation and haven't developed the same level of fluency in their response?

I have tried specific techiques for specific attacks that seemed to go both ways. I may have learned as much or more when the technique seemed difficult or awkward to apply because it was poorly suited to the particular attack as when the awkwardness rested on my own lack of practice dealing with the particular attack that way.

Here, though, the OP asked which techniques worked well in response to a particular situation. So that seems to leave out this dilemma:

It's sort of like trying to force square pegs in round holes.

In which case, to me, the problem isn't forcing a technique that doesn't work against a shove to the chest (as opposed to one that works "well"), but in not having developed the ability to deal with that particular "attack" effectively.

All of this is separate and apart from the "whoa there" debate, the frequency and seriousness of "chest shoving" as an attack, and whether obsessing about particular forms of attack in anticipation of encountering them on the "street" is a good idea or a bad idea.

This issue is just about training.

I have to agree with others on that issue; studying responses to a shove is a perfectly legitimate part of Aikido training, perhaps especially given the art's focus and aims.

And, at some point in the study of Aikido, it is appropriate and even necessary to go beyond simple replication of the forms shown in practice.

IME the above holds true irrespective of whether one is trying to find underlying principles through their training, as opposed to memorizing pat responses to particular situations.

YMMV

Regards

lbb
06-13-2010, 12:22 PM
IME the above holds true irrespective of whether one is trying to find underlying principles through their training, as opposed to memorizing pat responses to particular situations.

Well said. Good post.

Carrie Campbell
06-13-2010, 08:38 PM
Some type of ryotetori waza prehaps?

It seems like any of the ryokatatori techiniques may be appropriate.

More specifically, at an AHI seminar with Robert Kubo Shihan (Jeff Christianham sensei was actually teaching at the time), there was a technique against someone coming toward your chest with palms outstretched before them.

He started with a deflection exercise that ended up with partners switching places. Then, he ended with a technique that locked joints along the way- wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc.

Your forward arm will be in front of you with the hand down and elbow up, much like the sankyo stretch before practice. The exercise itself uses this to slide by with a tenkan.

The technique uses this as a shield of sorts and then your other hand comes over the top, thumb up, fingers to the side, palm forward to accept your partner's palm (the fingers on their hand were up, palms out toward you). The hand was turned backward to lock up the wrist, and then the elbow and other body structure, so that uke starts to go down to a knee. This was then rotated sideways in a circle to get to sankyo. He ended by rotating again in another circle, their hand to their shoulder, elbow up and pivot so their hand & shoulder are on the ground for a pin.

I think the main part of this "new" movement (new to me) was the initial block to protect yourself rather than your partner's attack so much, and then the connection with your partner's skeletal structure.

Basia Halliop
06-14-2010, 10:31 AM
Sometimes there is nothing more off balancing than some one reacting to defuse a situation, when you were trying to incite the situation.(it takes two to fight anyways.)

I totally agree that this can often be true in my experience... obviously not always, but sometimes when someone is picking a fight or doing something very openly obnoxious, they are trying to get you mad or upset and generally trying to up the energy level in the situation, and when you kind of shrug if off or wave them away, they can be a bit nonplussed and suddenly realize that if they go on they'll look childish or out of control. Depending on the situation and the person, sometimes that's quite effective.

Also agree that what's most effective might depend among other things on who you are (and e.g. if they're massively bigger than you or near the same size, gender, etc).

Amir Krause
06-15-2010, 12:57 AM
The all practical issue seems very strange to me: How can you assure he will only shove you as he goes in?

Since you cannot be sure a shove is just a shove, and he does not have anything in his hands, or going for a punch ... You should not let him touch you and therefore you should do your tai-sabaki to stay out of the line of attack, this will also take you out of the line of the attackers main force.
At this point, you should connect with him and apply a technique appropriate to the situation. Depending on where you moved to, the circumstances (can you still de-escalate and stop the fight? Was the attack only a shove?) , the environment (can you make him block some friend of his? be with his back to your friend?)

I am not going to mention any techniques, since the tai-abaki & mai (including timing and position after the fact) are most important to determine your options to continue, and I know my (korindo's) Tai-Sabaki is smaller then most thus likely to give me different opportunities.

Amir

Greg Jennings
06-15-2010, 02:02 PM
From my painful experience, please consider:

o Above all else, stay calm.

o Move to the side or the back to be able to reasonably claim that you were retreating. Try to maneuver to and keep a barrier between you and them.

o Make placating sounds and hand gestures that witnesses will, hopefully, remember. Ask someone, prefereably someone with some vested interest in keeping the peace, to mediate. Bartender, bouncer, etc.

o If you apply technique, make it something that doesn't look masterful. It's not aikido, per se, but if it's 1v1, pulling a closed guard and grabbing their hair or collar and keeping them pulled down while yelling "somebody get him off me!" is pretty defensible from a legal perspective. If you need to strike, vertical elbows to the top of their head might not draw too much attention.

o When the police report is made up:
oo You were afraid for your life.
oo Everything was a blur.
oo Don't volunteer that you study a martial art.
oo If you are placed under arrest, get a local lawyer before answering any questions.