Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei [Archive]

Jon Marshall

06-07-2010, 04:11 AM

Hello everyone,

This is my first new thread. Gleason Sensei said in an interview.

Unfortunately, aikido today has lost its origin, or in other words, it has lost aiki. Koichi Tohei tried to remedy this situation by creating the ki-society but, unfortunately that approach was unsuccessful. It seems that, in his own depth of understanding, he did not grasp the difficulty of others understanding as well.

Full interview here. (http://shobuaikido.ning.com/profiles/blogs/interview-with-william-gleason) It's also discussed in a thread on the Websites section of this site.

Having done ki aikido for 12 years before switching to "traditional" (inverted comma's because my current club's fairly informal and sometimes unconventional), I'm interested in the differences, and why Tohei's dream of a superior training methodology doesn't seem to have come to fruition. I say this because if Tohei's approach was as good as he'd hoped, then there would, by now, be a body of (ki aikido) aikidoka with clearly superior aikido. My limited experience is that I've come across good and bad aikido wherever I've gone. Also, that there isn't much crossover, so it's hard to judge.

Switching to traditional, I initially struggled with strong grips (still do sometimes). Likewise, I found others who could not cope with light, sensitive ("ki") attacks. I currently think that versatility/adaptability is an important virtue. I love ki aikido and might go back to it, but would be interested to know what others think about the whole ki aikido project. In particular, those who have trained in both ki aikido and traditional, and those with some experience in internal skills (Oh no, not another IS thread!)

Gleason Sensei also said...
Aiki jutsu today seems to be in the same boat as aikido. Its essence has been hidden to the extent that it can no longer even be found. It is not ultimately profitable to pass down the real article because then people don't continue to pay you money forever.

I could be wrong, but I never got this impression about Tohei. If anything, I think he was more proud of his training methodology than his aikido. So why aren't the ki aikido aikidoka the cream of the crop? Or are they? And why don't they train outside of their style? Or do they? And is it time for the 2 approaches to come together again - healing old wounds? Perhaps this is already happening.

Look forwards to hearing from you,
Jon

Dazzler

06-07-2010, 05:45 AM

Hi Jon

Yes an interesting interview albeit a little out of date.

It does somewhat criticise the state of the nation, and probably rightly so.

Aikido has spread far and wide and to satisfy demand then there are 'teachers' with limited Aikido ability everywhere.

I don't see this as a problem when these instructors remain open and share their knowledge while being honest with students that they are not the be all and end all of Aikido and there is more...much more ...to learn.

This is an important part of the interview to me "WG: Once again, I believe that the answer here is to reinstate aiki back into aikido. "

Those that are open and honest and with an ear to the ground cannot fail to recognise that there is a growing movement for all of us to re-evaluate our Aikido and consider this.

You tongue-in-cheek mention 'IS' ..but the proliferation of posts here is having an impact - people 'out there' are challenging dojo activities with an awareness that IS , kokyu-rokyu or whatever is perhaps the end game for Aikido.

Consequentially - there are changes afoot, maybe not everywhere, but they are growing.

You also mention ki Aikido and traditional coming together again...an interesting thought.

Do you not think this is happening then?

I've been on courses with you in last couple of years - looking at the representation at these courses its clear that there is a coming together.

Aikido - whether through ki or traditional is Aikido. Full stop.

What differs is the training methodology - not the Aikido.

As an aside - What has been a problem is that people have focussed on the training methodology instead of the true goals.

People get hung up on doing a great ikkyo for instance instead of using ikkyo as a tool to develop martial base/skills.

Anyway - this is changing.

Look at the courses you attended recently...say Stephane Bennedetti or Yamashima courses.

Locally you've got representation from Bath Aikido Society with clubs in Bristol and Bath, from Templegate Dojo in Bristol and others who are 'traditional' whatever that is...but you've also got Alistir Gillies with a very strong ki federation background having a very positive influence on those that train with him.

Its a good thing and the south west and wales should see some quality instructors emerge over the next few years whose primary focus is not so much about agreeing how you get there..but agreeing where 'there' is in the first place

Cheers

D

jss

06-07-2010, 07:25 AM

What differs is the training methodology - not the Aikido.
That can only be true when you define aikido broad enough so that only the goal matters, not the means to achieve the goal. Or put differently, so that only the destination matters, not the road you took to get there. The problem with such a broad definition is that you'll have to include certain activities that are most definitely not aikido, precisely because of that broadness.

Anyhow, if it isn't your training methodology that defines your aikido, then what does?

dps

06-07-2010, 07:29 AM

Dazzler

06-07-2010, 08:35 AM

That can only be true when you define aikido broad enough so that only the goal matters, not the means to achieve the goal. Or put differently, so that only the destination matters, not the road you took to get there. The problem with such a broad definition is that you'll have to include certain activities that are most definitely not aikido, precisely because of that broadness.

Anyhow, if it isn't your training methodology that defines your aikido, then what does?

Hi

Actually I'd say the definition is narrower. Those that broaden the definition call things Aikido when to me they aren't.

Including the training itself.

Loosely ...Training is the activities undertaken to learn to change the body and mind and in time to co-ordinate the two

You can stick two beginners together in a class and ask them to follow the teachers instruction.

Are either of them doing what I think of as Aikido?

I say no.

If being in an 'Aikido' class was all it took then press ups sit ups or any other activity used to warm up could be classified as 'Aikido'.

Again I do not think this is the case.

"Aikido" is performed by only the most skilled with the rest working toward this goal through a training methodology.

The training methodology is just the training methodology - It is very important of course but sadly all to often becomes the goal itself.

YMMV

Regards

D

Dazzler

06-07-2010, 08:46 AM

The problem is O'Sensei's Aikido is splintered. The students of O'Sensei went out and taught their own version of Aikido and then their students went out and taught their own version of Aikido, etc. This continues as more people learn and teach their own version of Aikido.

It is human nature to put your own spin on the things you learn and teach others. It happens in all phases of life.

There is no total group remedy that will bring Aikido back to O'Sensei Aikido.

As an individual you can cross train in as many different styles of Aikido and variations inside those styles by attending many different dojos. Even this will not get you O'Sensei's Aikido but maybe closer.

You are going to have to be satisfied with developing your own Aikido.

After all that is what O'Sensei did.

David

Agree (I think)...but no harm at all in refocussing on the end game and revisiting all your Aikido resources to see if theres something you missed the first time through.

Thats the cool thing with this 'Hidden In Plain Sight' stuff...until your mind is ready to see it...you just can't see it.

And then suddenly the penny drops, you learn something new...and then realise it was there all along.

Regards

D

06-07-2010, 08:48 AM

I don't know why or how someone would perceive the interview as dated. For many reasons I found it to be spot on, current and ground breaking.
I had dinner with Bill Saturday, and over drinks he not only expressed the same views but expanded on them. Considering where he has been and where he goes; I found his observations and views about Aikijujutsu and Aikido interesting, and spot on. Teachers say a lot of things and have their opinions. What I find interesting about Bill's opinions about aikijujutsu, and aikido and the state of affairs, is where they came from, what formed and continues to form them and what he continues to do in his own training to both investigate, validate and/or change them. And he is not alone.
Asking some senior teachers in Aikido something as simple as "What did you do, where did you go, who did you train with, what rooms did you stand in, in this past year, can result in some surprising answers. I think it is very good news that some seniors in aikido continue to do their research, be creative and remain very concerned with their personal growth and expressing their art.
I think these are interesting times. I can't wait to see what happens in the future with these arts.
Cheers
Dan

chillzATL

06-07-2010, 08:49 AM

Tohei's methods were definitely a step in the right direction and Aikido in general is weaker for not keeping them as its base. With that said, he definitely wasn't as clear as he could have been, but then again that's probably by design when you consider his upbringing. If taught correctly, what he was doing definitely makes for better, stronger Aikido.

You see more and more people going back and finding the value in what he was trying to get across (and other methods), but I really don't know what difference it's going to make to the aikido world in general. Most people probably don't feel there is anything wrong with what they're doing anyway, so why change?

It won't be until that type of stuff becomes a set part of the curriculum that you'll see any real changes, and even then only if people are actually getting good instruction and then spending some real time working on those things and testing themselves in some way outside of the waza in the dojo. Unless the Aikikai adopts them as a whole you won't see any major changes ever.

Dazzler

06-07-2010, 08:58 AM

Keith Larman

06-07-2010, 09:31 AM

A couple observations... If we grant that Tohei was on to something there are any number of groups who chart their lineage directly from Tohei. Ki Society is the self-evident example of course.

Over the years Ki Society starting doing a lot of different things (the taigi for example) and some groups split away. But not everyone who split from Ki Society (for any number of reasons) dropped the ki tests, training, etc. Some split away with an express intent of focusing *more* on those things.

I just wish people wouldn't paint with such a broad brush, sometimes. In *general* I would agree with it, however, I'd also caution that there are always outliers. There are lots of groups out there with varied degrees of focus on different things. So I would hesitate to generalize too much. Or maybe better, I'd try to stay away from absolutes.

That said... I do get what he's saying and agree.

oisin bourke

06-07-2010, 10:44 AM

Aiki jutsu today seems to be in the same boat as aikido. Its essence has been hidden to the extent that it can no longer even be found. It is not ultimately profitable to pass down the real article because then people don't continue to pay you money forever.

What does he mean by Aikijujutsu?

Is he talking about Daito Ryu?
If so, to play devil's advocate...

DR may have many problems regarding the loss of its "Essence" but I don't think it's due to teachers stringing students along to keep the money rolling in.

In the previous generation of DR teachers (Sagawa, Horikawa, Hisa etc) I can't think of a single full time professional teacher, and in the current generation, apart from Kawabe of the Takumakai, all the "professional" teachers I can think of trained basically like Kato Sensei of the Aikikai, i.e they had full time jobs, trained in their free time (often at great personal expense) and started training/teaching full time after (sometimes early) retirement.

I respect Gleason Sensei's dedication to Aikido and practice, but isn't such a comment a little rich coming from someone who's taught Aikido professionally for the past three decades while "Aikijujtsu" has been essentially maintained and taught by amateurs?

thisisnotreal

06-07-2010, 11:09 AM

This is interesting

..In later years, I learned that repetition isn¹t always necessary in order to strengthen ki power...

From< (http://www.bujindesign.com/featured_articles/2000_12_article_1.htm)

NagaBaba

06-07-2010, 01:15 PM

The globalization of aikido ( by K.Ueshiba. K.Tohei and others) and development of structured teaching to teach the millions of students resulted in producing and reproducing more and more empty forms without any regards to the content of the forms. Those forms were developed not only for entry level teaching, but, (what is the key for understanding of present situation) also for higher ranking students (3 dan and more).

Huge popularity of aikido has resulted in developing of the 'factories" where students are produced like a cars. Introduction the standards by the federations, has resulted in uniformity of behaviors and reactions high ranking students, and every deviation from such behavior is rejected. High ranking students very often are not able to handle in positive way those deviations in reaction, nobody taught them what to do in such situation. Because they are helpless, they reject it.

It happened despite of very clear message of the Founder, that highest level of aikido has no form, that the techniques are only the tools, not a goal in itself.

So if we want to visualize something very concrete, everybody started to produce empty wooden boxes, the only variation was a size. Today we call them different styles of aikido. Naturally Founder supposed that every instructor, like him, will fill up this box with his own development, but today such development is impossible, because of the uniformity of the behavior.

Other key element - teacher - student transmission became impossible thanks to increasing membership of the dojo. In fact, already with 30 - 50 students such transmission is highly improbable. And there are the dojos with much higher number of students!

Also, almost all aikido instructors today have daily jobs outside of aikido. If you add to that a teaching in the dojo, family, they have absolutely no time for their own development. So they are becoming the empty boxes, hardly preserving a form of techniques.

There is not much hope in this situation.

crbateman

06-07-2010, 01:22 PM

So much of the evolution of this issue deals with semantics and politics. Usually, when lines are drawn in the sand, neither side is 100% right, and neither is 100% wrong. But the Japanese way of dealing with controversy doesn't soothe the wounds, it often makes them worse, and I suspect that, despite the efforts of many people to close the gaps, we will see a continuation of the status quo for some time (only my opinion, so take it for what it's worth...).

jss

06-08-2010, 01:38 AM

Actually I'd say the definition is narrower. Those that broaden the definition call things Aikido when to me they aren't.

Including the training itself.

Loosely ...Training is the activities undertaken to learn to change the body and mind and in time to co-ordinate the two
So (the goal of) aikido is the coordination of body and mind? If I achieve this through training in e.g. singing, then I'm performing aikido?

Dazzler

06-08-2010, 02:23 AM

So (the goal of) aikido is the coordination of body and mind? If I achieve this through training in e.g. singing, then I'm performing aikido?

If you can do so within a martial framework then maybe yes! Perhaps you could call it kotadama....

Heres an idea...why don't you tell us what was missing in Toheis Aikido that is present in say Tamura's.

Or vice-versa?

Training methodology are definitely different ..could you share how the end product is different?

Regards

D

Nafis Zahir

06-08-2010, 02:37 AM

I have seen and trained with people from the Ki Society who were guest at a seminar I went to. I must say that I was not impressed. That is not a slap in the face to Tohei Sensei, but it just goes to show that Ki Aikido has been watered down like the other styles.

Also, I know of a few Iwama style people who can deal with very strong grabs. But then again, Iwama style aikidoka are not the only ones who can deal with strong grabs.

I have a great deal of respect for Tohei Sensei. It is sad to see the state of Aikido nowadays. But rather than let it get to me, I have decided to take advantage of the many avenues we have in order to train my own aikido and to get back as much as possible, many of the aspects of aikido that are missing and have been lost. I have been able to do this by attending many seminars with different Shihans, reading interviews online and using youtube as a valuable tool. I have seen several videos of Tohei Sensei demonstrating his taiso excercises, which I had previously learned. They are invaluable and should be taught at every dojo. They are a great way to learn and improve your tai sabaki. Do you know that many aikidoka don't know what tai sabaki is? And people wonder why their entries are not good.

I also believe that in order to improve your aikido, you have to go back and figure out what is missing. Go to youtube and watch some Daito Ryu videos. Watch the Aiki-ju-jitsu videos and then some Yoshinkan and Saito Sensei videos and you will clearly see what is missing in most Aikido dojos nowadays. This is not the end-all to the problem, but it is a way to jump start what many people see as a serious problem with aikido. But all you can really do is work on YOUR aikido.

jss

06-08-2010, 06:00 AM

Heres an idea...why don't you tell us what was missing in Toheis Aikido that is present in say Tamura's.
Or vice-versa?
I don't have enough experience with either gentleman's aikido to say where specifically the differences lie.

Training methodology are definitely different ..could you share how the end product is different?
Different training methodologies will by definition result in different end products. That's why I disagree with your earlier statement that ki aikido and traditional aikido differ in methodology only, not in the end product. Aikido as such has very little to with my point, actually. :)

Jon Marshall

06-08-2010, 06:03 AM

Thanks for your responses. Hi Daren, nice that you remember me. I was sorry to miss your big demo – working. Yes, there is some crossover in our locality, but not that much.

I agree that these are interesting times for aikido, partly because it’s possible that aikido is already an art in decline. The whole Internal Skills issue offers hope, and there are clearly lots of people looking (fumbling?) around for answers. I think ki aikido has certain things to offer, but my experience was of quite an insular culture – though I don’t assume that this is everyone’s experience. But if the the lessons of ki aikido are to find their way into the contemporary melting pot, then its’ exponents need to get out more. This situation may be different in the US where Tohei was such a massive influence anyway.

When people practice in a different way, they generally have to go through a period of struggle (at least I did), which is a bit bruising on the old ego. I think this is partly responsible for the culture of insularity I found within ki aikido, reinforced by an implication that others don’t “practice with ki”. Ki or no ki, I found that I had to go back and do more kotai training to build up more of a foundation. In fairness, I think lots of people are just happy with their practice and don’t want to look elsewhere. Also, some senior teachers just want to train students who’ll do as the’re told and not be shopping around for other ways. Whilst I personally find this frustrating, it’s up to them – it’s a voluntary relationship.

If aikido training is viewed as being on a firmness-lightness spectrum, then ki aikido clearly specialises on the light end, which is fine. Even though I used to get bored with ki testing and want to get on with the aikido, I can better see its’ value now. But I don't think Aikikai will ever adopt Tohei methods as it would be politically untenable.

Bill Gleason made some other points too. That without the “jutsu” there’s no “do”, which is a particularly danger in ki aikido. When asked “What happens if someone doesn’t feel ki?” my old teacher used to say “They get hit.” Well he could hit (karate background and a mental ability to “turn it on”), but lots can’t. And towards the end of the interview, Gleaso Sensei mentioned the need for HQ not to try to control aikido, which, with so much exploring and soul-searching going on, could hardly be more important.

Cheers,
Jon.

06-08-2010, 07:07 AM

So (the goal of) aikido is the coordination of body and mind?
It most certainly is. It is such a powerful way to train that entire arts have been named after the idea in China.
I think it is worth considering that Shihan with decades of experience think this method of training is the single most powerful tool they have ever encountered. Two of your senior teachers have told me they would trade every technique and past approach in their entire career ....for this.
Of course my response is "Why not have both?"
If I achieve this through training in e.g. singing, then I'm performing aikido?
No, you're not. You might become a better singer though.;)

I agree that mind/body is not all of it, so I see your point. The trouble in communication arises when people cannot see that it is thee, single most, powerful aspect of Aikido. That it drives everything else. Have you ever wondered why the aiki arts, had such unusual approaches to movement? They were designed to be driven by aiki power. Without it, all you really have is a jujutsu system, and not a very good one at that. I think getting your hands on some people who have it is a good start, then getting your hands on people who really know what to do WITH IT in motion, might help to define things more clearly.

If people do not understand the idea of mind/body connection and the power it trains in their body, then they simply do not have aiki. It is that simple. I continue to sit at tables with teachers who have trained with Kisshomaru, Arikawa, Yamaguchi, Chiba, Yamada, Kannai, Tohei, Saotome, Satio, , on to DR's Kiyama, Okomoto, Kondo, etc., who all....to a man, say this is the most powerful training tool they have ever felt.... At this point I don't think that opinion is going to change much. Mind/ body connection is king in the martial arts.
Good luck in your training
Dan

Jon Marshall

06-08-2010, 03:38 PM

Hi Dan,

Can I ask you, as the aiki heavyweight on the thread, what, if anything, you think is of particular value from the Tohei approach? What's worth keeping or focussing on for those of us who don't currently have access to an aiki-qualified teacher?

And whilst I'm here, what are your thoughts on the effectiveness of (1) Zhang Zhuan standing chi kung and Yiquan, and (2) Feldenkrais Method, which you might know nothing about but I'll ask just in case (it's all about mind/body coordination, but perhaps lacks the sweat and tears for what you're talking about.)

Thanks for your time,
Jon.

06-09-2010, 07:42 AM

Hi Dan,
Can I ask you, as the aiki heavyweight on the thread, what, if anything, you think is of particular value from the Tohei approach? What's worth keeping or focusing on for those of us who don't currently have access to an aiki-qualified teacher?
Jon
Measuring or weighting these things can be difficult. I don't see myself as much of anything, much less an "aiki heavyweight." Remember that up until 2006 I trained in a closed dojo in the woods. I do what I do, and that's that. People can make of it what they will, it doesn't change what I am doing.

Getting into details about what I think about Tohei's method, is pointless and will only serve as fuel for some nebulous internet debate- one which will not benefit me in any way.
Let's just say that there are different methods people use to connect the body. Breath training and moving from the center is not a panacea to all that ails us. There are ways and means to connect the body, ways to use that connected body to cancel and absorb, also to issue, to load and release, to open and close, etc. There are also ways to absorb while issuing, to offline while entering. These things are done in a digit, in a limb, and/or with the whole body.
I have never seen Tohei express anything of what I am talking about as a totality or method of movement, nor have I seen him express the same type of spiral movement I see in Ueshiba. But, hey, I didn't live with the guy, I just watched him on video, read his book, felt some people who trained in Ki society, and watched others. If he were doing what I am doing I would have seen it, read it, or had others at least be able to discuss or understand what I was talking about. As for judging it I will leave that up to others.

Is it fair to call Tohei's method a failure, as some did here, because the ki society did not produce cookie-cutter people with power? If the goal is to produce guaranteed results then I think we could make a case that all martial arts have failed to one degree or another. But, then we could say that about dance, gymnastics, golf etc. At a point there needs to be an individual ownership that involves; talent, skill, work ethic, mental acumen, testing, practice and so on. It is far to complicated to make such simple statements. Let me say that Bills comments about Aikido being in such poor shape are not meant to be all inclusive; it was a generalization of the state of affairs, and most senior teachers I have spoken and trained with seem to agree. So in that regard, Bill's comment seems to be a consensus among the teachers I keep meeting.

At any rate when it comes to ki and moving from center, I think it is going to be as empty an endeavor in the future as it was in the past. Why, because I think history is just going to repeat itself. It is going to be interesting for some people to find out if moving from the center and moving with ki...is enough to get the job done, and this time in a more educated environment. In my opinion it is not. There are ways to train to connect the body and there are ways to train to move those connections and they are not all the same. People with internal power do not all move the same, and some have flaws in movement. Nothing else will do but getting out and about, testing methods and people and finding out what gels with your own goals and intentions. I recently had this discussion with some aikido teachers who are currently doing that very thing.

And whilst I'm here, what are your thoughts on the effectiveness of (1) Zhang Zhuan standing chi kung and Yiquan, and (2) Feldenkrais Method, which you might know nothing about but I'll ask just in case (it's all about mind/body coordination, but perhaps lacks the sweat and tears for what you're talking about.)

Zhang Zhuan
I stand, and also move in extremely slow movement drills. Standing, slow movement with and without heavy weapons, and breath work, are the cornerstone of what I do.
It is what I do while I am standing,
how I move slowly and
how I breath...... that creates aiki power.
I haven't met anyone yet in aikido who I considered to be soft. Most are actually pretty hard. But that is just my personal experience so far. As I said in 97' on the aikido list, "Good Daito Ryu is very soft. It is more like Taiji than aikido." I think one of the key problems is that Aikido believes it is a soft art, mostly due to it's evasive circular movement. Being soft, while having the ability to generate power and control requires specific training. You don't just "get soft" by relaxing or from externally evading power and moving out of the way. It just doesn't work that way. Moreover, you won't find soft power that way, no matter how long you train. The aikido teachers I am training with are finding that true softness under pressure was harder to attain than they thought and is extremely beneficial to their own training goals.

Yiquan
I have met Yiquan people who were awful, and some who were good. Of the ones who seem to have gotten something out of their training; we seem to be able to talk shop quite nicely. I just did a seminar this last weekend and among the participants was a Yi quan guy. He tells me I verbally addressed and then physically expressed many of the concepts his Chinese teacher had imparted. He reads these pages so if he is interested, he can address your questions better than I could. FWIW I have sat at a table with two Yi quan guys, and while one was expounding on his training methods, the other guy looked at him like he was nuts. Sound familiair? I can tell you- for example- that I have talked with DR people who said to me "How could you have seen that out of this?" Where I responded "How could you have not?" I think like everything else in Martial arts; it appears to be a case-by-case basis.

Feldenkras
From what I have read...nope, I'm not interested.
From guys I have met..nope I'm not interested.
I had one fellow at a taiji get together watch me pushing hands with a bunch of folks and then come up and tell me he could improve my push hands and my moving from center. He was a feldenkras teacher. I said "Really, show me?" I then proceeded to move him all over with a finger, break his balance and deconstruct his posture, then had him try all of that on me. Then I asked him what he thought he could possibly teach me? So.... nope, I'm not interested.

I don't see how my opinions help in anyway. I think it's best if we all go out and form more of our own, but there ya go. The good news is that people are out there talking about this stuff openly, and there are plenty of experts out there teaching soft arts, along with some amatuers demonstrating and sharing whatever it is they do. It's an interesting time to be in the aiki arts, or any tradtional art for that matter.
Good luck in your training
Dan

Jon Marshall

06-09-2010, 10:05 AM

Thanks Dan,

I thought you might bite at the "aiki heavyweight" - couldn't resist. Well I find your input helpful, and you have answered my specific questions fully, but I do understand that your opinions are not going to better connect my mind and body.

I do dabble in different arts, but aikido's my love, so I'm reluctant to take on new forms. That's one of the reasons I like Zhan Zhuang. I'm hoping that at some point a few Aunkai people will pop up in the UK as that seems pretty minimalist.

As for ki aikido (to keep on-topic), I don't think it's failed any more that any other aikido, but do I think the Tohei world-view will become a bit dated if the IS stuff gets successfully integrated.

Thanks again,
Jon.

sakumeikan

06-09-2010, 10:58 AM

Hi All,
Whether Tohei Sensei and Shin Shin Toitsu aikido training methods are effective /practical or other wise for me is not an issue.
I think that some of the exercises illustrated in Books by Tohei Sensei can be very useful.I am however much more inclined towards Tohei Senseis' philosophical views as expressed in the original Aikido in Daily Life book.This book certainly made me look at my own situation in life from a slightly different perspective.I am grateful to Tohei Sensei for his efforts here.Prior to his defection from the Aikikai Tohei Sensei
was undoubtedly one of the foremost Aikidoka. He richly deserves his place as a great pioneer of Aikido.History should reflect his contribution to the Art.

06-09-2010, 11:18 AM

Thanks Dan,

I do dabble in different arts, but aikido's my love, so I'm reluctant to take on new forms. That's one of the reasons I like Zhan Zhuang. I'm hoping that at some point a few Aunkai people will pop up in the UK as that seems pretty minimalist.

Thanks again,
Jon.
I have a small group of people in ICMA and Aikido who keep trying to talk me into a seminar in England. If I do one it will probably be like the ones I do now-not advertised, if you're interested let me know by P.M.

Cheers
Dan

chillzATL

06-09-2010, 11:33 AM

As for ki aikido (to keep on-topic), I don't think it's failed any more that any other aikido, but do I think the Tohei world-view will become a bit dated if the IS stuff gets successfully integrated.

Thanks again,
Jon.

IMO, it's just like anything else in martial arts. There's a difference in doing things and doing them right. I mean he did that stuff. O'sensei did some of it as well, which is where he got a lot of it. It seemed to be part of his routine. Some aspects of it also exist in people like Sagawa's tanren. I don't think it's going to make you an IS superstar or anything, but stronger aikido, definitely. Again though, we're talking about doing the stuff properly and not just going through the motions. That includes all the ki testing stuff in the taiso as well. Even modern ki society people could be going through the motions. Then though, even if you have someone doing the stuff right, with the right focus, right intent, how much of it are they doing? Doing it for 15 minutes before class a few times a week isn't going to do much. We don't really have much insight into Tohei's personal training routine, but it's probably safe to say that he did a good bit of training off the mats.

jonreading

06-09-2010, 11:58 AM

I think there is a focus in aikido on the "goal," not the means to accomplish the goal. As aikido has become somewhat homogenized to satisfy the expansion of students, aikido choose to focus on a fixed goal, and leave the means of accomplishing that goal to the various organizations and leading instructors. Sort of an "end justifies the means" point of view. As long as you are enlightened, does it matter if you can fight? However, we are now challenging the answer to this question because: A. we are not finding enlightenment, B. We can't fight for s$#%. Personally, I agree that we need to critically review the curriculum of aikido and the tools of dissemination because I think we are weak in this respect.

As for the essence of aikido, I think the development of body and mind is an adequate summation of training, and I think the coordination and control over one's person as a result of that training would adequately outline a Westernized concept of "aiki". I think in argument, one can express aiki in a variety of different activities: flowering arranging, karate, baseball, dancing, etc. The problem is that we have difficulty expressing aiki through aikido training. We have a validation issue with a fallible curriculum that is diluted in both instruction consumption. I think this is the focus of Gleason Sensei's comment concerning the absence of the essence of aiki in training...

I think many leaders are currently reviewing their methods of dissemination and the curriculum of aikido. I think more instructors are validating their instruction against other arts and fighting principles. I think organizations are altering their instructional goals to produce a more solid foundation of students.

Jon Marshall

06-09-2010, 12:21 PM

Hi Joe,

I should probably clarify my last paragraph. When I said Tohei's world-view might become a bit dated, I meant his reductionist approach to ki - i.e. the answer to every difficulty is to extend more ki.

Philosophically, I'm not saying he's dated, though I'm not sure if his philosophy and methodology can be completely separated. Perhaps I should re-read "Ki in Daily Life", which was an influence on me too. I remember enjoying his style, but finding it a bit simplistic and overconfident in places. I don't think there's much danger of his contribution not being acknowledged in aikido histories.

Regards,
Jon.

Keith Larman

06-09-2010, 12:48 PM

FWIW I just reread Ki in Daily Life. Sometimes it seems a bit dogmatic and oversimplified, but I was also struck with the realization of how much has always been there. The breathing exercises are certainly interesting to reread given discussions I've seen over the last few years about breathing, tension, winding, etc.

Our Kanshu has asked that we spend more time on some of the old ki tests and training as it was felt that we weren't cultivating those skills enough in the students. Some instructors I know go back long enough to remember training directly with Tohei et al. For me, I've been re-reading a lot of those old books, revisiting old notes, and it has been good, for me at least. Through new eyes I see a lot of what had always been there, lurking under the surface. Just with new abilities now to understand, explain, and hopefully get better at them and pass them along.

Another observation... In most areas of non-trivial difficulty there will always be a very large number of people who never really "get it". Of course they enjoy their practice and get any number of benefits from it. But the group of those who get *really, really good* is often a very small number. It is true of martial arts, sports, heck, pretty much anything. Those who are *truly* looking *and able* to get good will make the effort to get out there and find it, whatever *it* turns out to be. But ya gotta have both. That there are a lot of people training and teaching who aren't at the very highest levels shouldn't be surprising given the incredible popularity of the endeavor. Welcome to the greatest strength and paradoxically the greatest weakness of Aikido. The "grading curve" doesn't change. For every 100 gravitating around the mean performers there are only 1 or 2 really top notch performers. If we go to 200 then we're talking about 2-4 top notch people.

Lots of people play tennis. Few can hang with someone like Federer. That doesn't mean those who can't shouldn't play. Nor should we lament the sheer number of people who can't hold their own with the world class players. We should, however, be aware that most of us cannot hold our own. That, I think, is the real issue -- the self-delusion that we're all really good at it. :eek:

Keith Larman

06-09-2010, 12:51 PM

What's the quote from the NPR show... "Welcome to _______ where all the students are above average." Love that line.

Aiki1

06-09-2010, 01:03 PM

My take on part of this issue is that what Tohei has shown quite well, is that the basic level(s) of what I call Internal Aiki, and the power that is one result of it (or, one level of it's application), can be learned and accessed through internal awareness and feeling/kinesthetic training, using relatively simple and straight-forward methodologies.

The thing is, there is a lot more that needs to be learned beyond that in order to externalize it properly, and actually apply it in Aikido. But without even the basic knowledge and training to make these internal connections, Aikido becomes, as has been said, "simply a form of Jujitsu" (not a bad thing, but in actuality very different.) This is mostly what I have seen in the Aikido world over the last three decades. If one wants to "bring back Aiki to Aikido", Tohei's "Ki training and mind/body coordination/unification" is a very reasonable place to start.

To me, though, it has it's limitations. Unfortunately, (forgive me my Ki Society friends) even though Ki Society training in this fundamental area is good, in my opinion it isn't always applied, or applied properly, interactively to actual Aikido practice and execution, and that's where things start to fall apart, so to speak. (I have known some very good older/upper level practitioners though.) Also, I think Ki Society has become over-identified with their teachings and training methodologies around Ki and leading the mind, such that some other things tend to be neglected. (Similarly, to me, many Aikido styles tend to be over-identified with external technique and neglect, are mistaken about, or are devoid of, the internal training, thus also being out of balance and "incomplete.") Coupled with the fact that, for various reasons, Ki Society training tends to be fairly isolated from other organizational training, I think this is why people would see Tohei's "attempt" at bringing this fundamental aspect to Aikido, and the expected results, as unsuccessful. In a real sense, it's true.

To me, what it ultimately means to both learn and then apply "Aiki", at different internal and external levels, to Aikido practice and actual execution, is the tricky and interesting thing. There are other methodologies than Tohei's available, though not many. To learn it, and learn to access it, it is best to be inducted into the experience by someone who is well-versed in it. It's difficult to find on one's own without being able to feel it. But to me, this stuff comprises the core elements and very heart of Aikido.

06-09-2010, 04:45 PM

IMO, it's just like anything else in martial arts. There's a difference in doing things and doing them right. I mean he did that stuff. O'sensei did some of it as well, which is where he got a lot of it.
Not according to him. He has said in several interviews that Ueshiba did not teach. If I am not mistaken he meant this to be inclusive of his peers as well, not just himself. I believe he stated "The only we got from Ueshiba was, to relax."
He got his ki ideas from "Outside the art."
Getting it outside the art is what some of contemporary senior teachers are doing right now, and all but ignoring the most senior Japanese staff in doing so.

It seemed to be part of his routine. Some aspects of it also exist in people like Sagawa's tanren. I don't think it's going to make you an IS superstar or anything, but stronger aikido, definitely.
You're not going to have much to stand on comparing Tohei's approach to Sagawa's-nor their comparative power. Sagawa was a an I.S. superstar of a sort, but we really don't know what other I.S. "stars" he might have played with to be considered a "superstar" do we? I've a feeling people like Wang Chu Shin would have landed Sagawa on his butt in a hurry.

Doing it for 15 minutes before class a few times a week isn't going to do much. We don't really have much insight into Tohei's personal training routine, but it's probably safe to say that he did a good bit of training off the mats.
Agreed. Doing any of this as just a warm up before class is all but a waste of time. Of course many people are going to take the information being offered and do that very thing anyway. In a few years we will be right back here with people saying the same things "Aiki doesn't really work. I felt....." and they will proceed to talk about those very same people. More poor representatives of their own casual efforts...and so it goes.
Hopefully, there will be enough hard workers out there to occasionally set the record straight for any doubters by actually being able to deliver and "keep it real" under more stressful freestyle testing.
Dan

thisisnotreal

06-09-2010, 06:14 PM

how many hours a day/week to be for real?

chillzATL

06-09-2010, 07:03 PM

Not according to him. He has said in several interviews that Ueshiba did not teach. If I am not mistaken he meant this to be inclusive of his peers as well, not just himself. I believe he stated "The only we got from Ueshiba was, to relax."
He got his ki ideas from "Outside the art."
Getting it outside the art is what some of contemporary senior teachers are doing right now, and all but ignoring the most senior Japanese staff in doing so.

I only meant the taiso. There's vids of Ueshiba doing some parts of what became the taiso. They were a part of his earliest books and vids, all of which were approved by Ueshiba. He had the favor of Ueshiba and there had to be more to that than the numbers of people Tohei brought to the dojo. Regardless of what he may say later, scorned, or what he learned later, he paid attention to what Ueshiba was doing.

You're not going to have much to stand on comparing Tohei's approach to Sagawa's-nor their comparative power. Sagawa was a an I.S. superstar of a sort, but we really don't know what other I.S. "stars" he might have played with to be considered a "superstar" do we? I've a feeling people like Wang Chu Shin would have landed Sagawa on his butt in a hurry.

Wasn't trying to draw comparisons to ability, only the similarity in some of their exercises. There was some overlap there, so there has to be some value in Tohei's exercises. If Ueshiba approved and Sagawa also used some of those things, they both come from the same place, there has to be value. Maybe not full boat skills here, but if we're just talking better aikido, I think so yah.

Still haven't read the book, but isn't there a story of Sagawa and Ueshiba meeting and Ueshiba inviting him to come teach at the Aikikai? That has to say something about the guy.

Hopefully, there will be enough hard workers out there to occasionally set the record straight for any doubters by actually being able to deliver and "keep it real" under more stressful freestyle testing.
Dan

No interest in getting hit, but being able to grapple with this stuff would be pretty awesome. It would be hard to not want to go find some judo guys or wrestlers to test it out with.

chillzATL

06-09-2010, 07:12 PM

how many hours a day/week to be for real?

I read someone equate it to any physical skill. If you wanted to be great at tennis or basketball, you wouldn't get there playing or practicing only an hour a week. To even be decent at those things you'd have to put in several hours per week, minimum and that's decent low level ability.

06-09-2010, 07:34 PM

I don't have any answers for you on the internet. I'd just make sure it was time well spent. I think a lot of people are trying to throw together a bunch of unrelated training material and hoping for a good outcome. It might prove to be a whole lot of wasted hours spent.
Training intelligently is the first order of business, then how long you do it. If you understand what you are shooting for there are any number of things you can do everyday.
I train while I am driving on long commutes, when I open doors, when I lift a carton of milk, when I go up and down stairs, when I hike, when I lift rocks on my property, when I am answering ridiculous questions from misinformed soccer moms at variance hearings...while feigning my focused attention. :rolleyes:
Stolen moments; I have cables attached to a door frame in my office where I can push and pull at break intervals (It beats eating donuts). Now add to that real focused training morning and evenings
Then of course you have actual workouts in the dojo twice a week for 6 hours and visiting other dojos twice a week for four hours at a whack.

Dedication is an interesting thing. If we were getting paid a million bucks to change our bodies; we would find out the who, what, where, why's and when...so fast our heads would spin...and we'd actually do it.
Alas, no million dollars, just the choices we make.
Dan

06-09-2010, 08:08 PM

Wasn't trying to draw comparisons to ability, only the similarity in some of their exercises. There was some overlap there, so there has to be some value in Tohei's exercises. If Ueshiba approved and Sagawa also used some of those things, they both come from the same place, there has to be value. Maybe not full boat skills here, but if we're just talking better aikido, I think so yah.

Still haven't read the book, but isn't there a story of Sagawa and Ueshiba meeting and Ueshiba inviting him to come teach at the Aikikai? That has to say something about the guy.

Hello Jason
My point was as I stated- simply that there is little to nothing to stand on in comparing the two. That's all.
When you called Sagawa a "superstar" of IS I decided to make an equally nebulous (but more interesting for me) comparison between Sagawa and Wang Shu Chin. It goes no where. See what I mean?

I was having the discussion with a senior teacher today ...
About testing a master level Daito ryu teacher. What's the point? There is really only one way to test the guy, and they are not going to have it.
How do we compare superstars who train in systems where:
Students just don't try to stop a teacher as a regular practice (hell if ever), when the training model is to take ukemi instead of effect change and give their energy back and when people are convinced that taking ukemi by falling is a good thing.
Compared to "superstars" in arts where the goal is to neutralize constantly and give it back where both people have power and they try to undo each others efforts.
And that compared to the few guys who train IP/aiki where you fight or at least seriously spar.
Answer........you can't.

No interest in getting hit, but being able to grapple with this stuff would be pretty awesome. It would be hard to not want to go find some judo guys or wrestlers to test it out with.
I understand the doubt and why you would consider it awesome, but if you really understand IP/ aiki -it is made for MMA/ grappling and should not be unusual. Grappling alone bores the hell out of me anymore without the ability to hit and kick. Same thing with weapons without the ability to freestyle with them. I mean what the hell's the point? Its just trading one more limitation for another when you have inherent power and ability to deliver the whole package.
As for IP/aiki in freestyle MMA? I stopped debating those points here anymore. I think the Ki wars poisoned the well and people can never even dream that their arts aiki was good or real enough to be a stand alone power that absolutely kicks-ass wholesale. They have lost confidance and the understanding that what once was the cornerstone of their arts power can be again.
Bill had some interesting views on Ki, as well as Ki in aikido as well as Ki in fighting. And I will tell you, that 65 yr old man showed up in sweats and wanted to go at with me "full-on" to see what would happen. I have no end of respect for the shear guts of that man.
Dan

chillzATL

06-10-2010, 07:58 AM

I don't have any answers for you on the internet. I'd just make sure it was time well spent. I think a lot of people are trying to throw together a bunch of unrelated training material and hoping for a good outcome. It might prove to be a whole lot of wasted hours spent.

Doesn't this come back to the IQ threshold thing again though? If someone is just doing exercises with no thought towards what they want out of it or how it would be used in their particular art, sure, it's going to be time wasted. At best they might get some cool tricks out of it, but if someone applies just a bit of intelligence to what they're doing I think they could/should figure out how what they're doing fits their art (or not) and make adjustments from there. I know you're probably well past that point, but that discovery process is pretty damned fun and interesting too. I mean I'm a total noob, but I can't see how someone who was really interested and even semi-serious wouldn't be able to start figuring that out after working with someone enough to get started on the basics. If they couldn't, then it probably wouldn't matter if you drew them a map with a giant X on it.

Stolen moments; I have cables attached to a door frame in my office where I can push and pull at break intervals (It beats eating donuts). Now add to that real focused training morning and evenings
Then of course you have actual workouts in the dojo twice a week for 6 hours and visiting other dojos twice a week for four hours at a whack.

Tengu! Isn't that the title Ueshiba earned himself by training like that? :)

chillzATL

06-10-2010, 08:18 AM

I understand the doubt and why you would consider it awesome, but if you really understand IP/ aiki -it is made for MMA/ grappling and should not be unusual. Grappling alone bores the hell out of me anymore without the ability to hit and kick. Same thing with weapons without the ability to freestyle with them. I mean what the hell's the point? Its just trading one more limitation for another when you have inherent power and ability to deliver the whole package.

Well I think you probably relate it to what you do and since I don't do MMA/grappling at this point, finding those connections are more revelatory to me than they would be to someone like yourself or a straight grappler, but you're also a Tengu Dan and I'm just a nub trying to learn. You never know what could change after a few years.

As for IP/aiki in freestyle MMA? I stopped debating those points here anymore. I think the Ki wars poisoned the well and people can never even dream that their arts aiki was good or real enough to be a stand alone power that absolutely kicks-ass wholesale. They have lost confidance and the understanding that what once was the cornerstone of their arts power can be again.

The fluffy philosophy of Aikido is attractive to a lot of people and there's nothing wrong with that. IMO, even if this stuff were a clearly taught part of the art, I don't think you'd have many more people interested in testing it that way than you do now though. Hell, I'm still not convinced that this growing interest in this stuff in the Aikido world is going to amount to much long term anyway. I mean anything that makes aikido better/stronger is a win, even if it's only in the dojo. My own interests are skewing a little beyond that at this point though.

06-10-2010, 09:10 AM

Doesn't this come back to the IQ threshold thing again though? If someone is just doing exercises with no thought towards what they want out of it or how it would be used in their particular art, sure, it's going to be time wasted. At best they might get some cool tricks out of it, but if someone applies just a bit of intelligence to what they're doing I think they could/should figure out how what they're doing fits their art (or not) and make adjustments from there. I know you're probably well past that point, but that discovery process is pretty damned fun and interesting too. I mean I'm a total noob, but I can't see how someone who was really interested and even semi-serious wouldn't be able to start figuring that out after working with someone enough to get started on the basics. If they couldn't, then it probably wouldn't matter if you drew them a map with a giant X on it.

I dunno, I think it's more about good information and hands-on. I wouldn't bet on IQ being as important as average intelligence with a good dose of dogged determination. Many times "actual" practice can trump talent.;)
Now, good information, with talent, and intellect....coupled with fighting experience outside of the constraints of traditional arts....with this stuff. Now that is an interesting combination.

How would that training experience change a person and offer information to experienced teachers to enhance ki in aikido? Bill and other teachers are going out and finding out for themselves. They have seen, felt, and are making their own personal judgments in that regard, picking methods and systems and training them.

Is it a surprise- that to a man- these teachers are all going outside aikido to find it. Is it any wonder after being exposed to outside sources they speak in a unified voice saying that aikido has lost aiki? Is it a surprise that those who have not had exposure don't know what these teachers are on about and are perfectly happy to get more air time (ukemi) and hope for some kind of change or enlightenment to get aiki, and still others don't care about anything at all and just want a work out with some groovy techniques?
It's just the way it is.

I'm just betting that this time around with the 'ki wars" that the information is better, the training for it is real, and the results-definitive. In time, I don't think there will be a Japanese Shihan living who will be able to successfully debate the training method and the results it brings (all within the traditional paradigm of their own arts) hands on with some of their own. Aiki is undeniably real....when it is real and more so; when it is taken to a different level then the strictures of traditional kata and ukemi (something which I abhore). There are some men who can hand them their heads...with aiki... but used in a manner they are simply not capable of dealing with.

I am very hopeful that the aiki arts are going to have a resurgence...backward. Which is another comment I have heard from some teachers. They are as convinced as I am -that it was there with the founders of these arts and then went decidedly down hill from there.
Dan

Jon Marshall

06-10-2010, 09:16 AM

Keith Larman wrote:
Another observation... In most areas of non-trivial difficulty there will always be a very large number of people who never really "get it". Of course they enjoy their practice and get any number of benefits from it. But the group of those who get *really, really good* is often a very small number. It is true of martial arts, sports, heck, pretty much anything.

I find this a helpful reminder to stay humble with it all. Yeah, I'd love to be in the *really, really good* crew, but given my work rate (which may change), I will probably have to settle for less. There is an element of fantasy that I can recognise in myself (who doesn't want Jedi powers?), but people who get super-good at stuff do tend to be quite obsessional. I admire them, but wouldn't necessarily want to be them - they can pay a high price. Still, I'd like to one day make the *really good* gang.

And I'd like to nominate Jon Reading for Quote of the Thread.

As long as you are enlightened, does it matter if you can fight? However, we are now challenging the answer to this question because: A. we are not finding enlightenment, B. We can't fight for s$#%.

Ha ha,
Jon.

06-10-2010, 09:42 AM

Keith Larman wrote:

I find this a helpful reminder to stay humble with it all. Yeah, I'd love to be in the *really, really good* crew, but given my work rate (which may change), I will probably have to settle for less. There is an element of fantasy that I can recognise in myself (who doesn't want Jedi powers?), but people who get super-good at stuff do tend to be quite obsessional. I admire them, but wouldn't necessarily want to be them - they can pay a high price. Still, I'd like to one day make the *really good* gang.

Ha ha,
Jon.

I think those are good comments
To that end, IP/aiki will empower DR and Aikido practitioners without the need to "learn to fight" and will serve to simply make whatever you do martially ...far more viable. And it will do that to whatever degree YOU practice. I am hearing from people that it is changing their aikido and how they see aikido after just one weekend. From there it goes deeper as each person trains.

Common ground
There are some truths that are viable and beyond opinion. Once shown certain things about moving from center, wire framing yourself and others, how to create a stable body, what it feels like in error, where force and power can be as one with absorbing and neutralizing, what it feel like to use balance as a weapon, etc, you can gain a whole new insight into your practice, And it doesn't mean you had to learn to fight.
There are teachers from ICMA, Karate, Aikido, and Daito ryu all training this way now. How is it that they can join in with jujutsu/ MMA people and all find common ground for use within their own respective arts?
Bills comments, while related to his own love for aikido, are more expansive beyond even what he considered. He is meeting teachers from other disciplines who are sharing his same views.

Fighting, or just doing TMA? Enlightenment...really?
It is probably worth repeating that I actually admire the choice that Ueshiba made to make the art more defensive and less stressfull to practice. Further, his visionary approach to what it could do to bring people together worldwide. As most know there is an element to aikido past its martial foundation.
I just happen to believe that a) the aiki power to do that very thing against trained resistance is largely now gone from the art of aikido. and b) you simply cannot teach IP/ aiki in a large format. It just doesn't work. Hence, my decision to teach teachers, in order for them to do the real work in reaching others.
I think enlightenment is too nebulous a goal and cannot be defined. It's an ever moving target so I'm not going there. Budo can but not always will make you a better person for the effort...and in the process you can learn to be martially effective They are not mutually exclusive. I do believe you can have a measure of both, even if it is incremental.
Cheers
Dan

thisisnotreal

06-10-2010, 09:42 AM

And I'd like to nominate Jon Reading for Quote of the Thread.

seconded.

jonreading

06-10-2010, 11:11 AM

thisisnotreal

06-10-2010, 11:45 AM

Who realistically expects modern aikido to produce another Tohei sensei? O'Sensei? Saito Sensei? Saotome Sensei?

every single newbie

757

06-10-2010, 11:47 AM

:)

I think it is interesting that many of our aikido leaders who are expanding their training are moving outside aikido to do so - Dan hit the nail on the head. Current aikido curriculum is incomplete education. Leading instructors have tried different (personalized) approaches to adjusting curriculum to solicit a more successful result to a greater or lesser extent.

I think sometimes we forget that many of the earlier Ueshiba students (pre-war) came to aikido with a pre-education in martial arts. The experiences under which aikido was "created" were related to a collection of martial experience (although arguably Daito Ryu was most influential). It should not be surprising to find that experience outside aikido may significantly improve training and wisdom to better transmit aikido. I think the quiet move of key aikido people to begin seeking information from other martial arts is indicative of the potential...

As I've noted in previous posts, the martial background of those earlier students of Ueshiba did not matter. Daito ryu aiki was, and is, THE single foundation of skill for them. Foundation meaning that aiki creates a martial body unlike any other training and once built, aiki is formless and can be used in any martial art. It becomes a personal, outward, physical expression.

And "many of our aikido leaders who are expanding their training are moving outside aikido to do so" are NOT going to karate, BJJ, MMA, judo, etc. They are going back to the source to learn Daito ryu aiki. These people aren't seeking other martial arts at all. They are training aiki, THE aiki from Daito ryu, THE aiki that Ueshiba Morihei had, the foundational skill that creates a martial body.

Who realistically expects modern aikido to produce another Tohei sensei? O'Sensei? Saito Sensei? Saotome Sensei?

Modern aikido will *never* produce another Ueshiba, nor is it likely to produce anyone as skilled as the aikido giants. It lacks aiki as Bill stated.

However, the aikido of some aikido leaders will take a very pronounced turn for the best. Those who keep training aiki will continue to get better in leaps and bounds over everyone else. Remember, the training of the aikido greats wasn't all that long. In 5-10 years, we'll see more aikido giants emerge. I'd keep a close watch on Bill because I think he'll be the first. And somewhere along those learning, another Ueshiba will emerge. Another Sagawa. Another Kodo. And maybe even another Takeda. All with aiki. None without.

06-10-2010, 03:29 PM

:)
Who realistically expects modern aikido to produce another Tohei sensei? O'Sensei?
Me.:D
Apart from the myth making nonsense, I think the potential is there to produce some that are bettter than they were. I have great hopes for people in Aikido.who are pursuing aiki, It's only a matter of time.

I think many teachers in the art might be utterly shocked to see what is out there and what it can either do to them, or for them.
I think there are a bunch of people having a whole hell of a lot of fun learning, playing and getting better at things they once thought not possible in their current practice.
Have hope
Cheers
Dan

Dazzler

06-11-2010, 05:21 AM

Modern aikido will *never* produce another Ueshiba, nor is it likely to produce anyone as skilled as the aikido giants. .

(on 'modern' Aikido)

here are the circumstances in which I heard the term from Master Arikawa in Paris , 1993 while we were talking about Aikido.

I was led during the course of the conversation to use the expression 'Modern Aikido' in order to distinguish Aikido as generally practiced nowadays from that taught by O-sensei.

The conversation took an abrupt turn.

Looking me in the eye, Master Arikawa told me 'Chassang, there is only one Aikido, one only; there cannot be two. Aikido is unique...'Modern Aikido! it makes no sense.'

The conversation contined with Budo Sportif becoming the substitute phrase ...rather like AikidoTM used in this forum (rather more cleverly than I've just used it...).

It would seen that this recognition that 'Aikido' has been somewhat watered down in some quarters is not a recent concept.

Regards

D
(above quote taken from "Ai Ki Do - The Way Forward" by Pierre Chassang - 8th Dan.

06-11-2010, 06:11 AM

The conversation contined with Budo Sportif becoming the substitute phrase ...rather like AikidoTM used in this forum (rather more cleverly than I've just used it...).

It would seen that this recognition that 'Aikido' has been somewhat watered down in some quarters is not a recent concept.

Regards

D
(above quote taken from "Ai Ki Do - The Way Forward" by Pierre Chassang - 8th Dan.

Over the years in a number of threads, I have brought up topics such as these:

Ueshiba was famous for having people push on him, from standing to sitting cross legged on the mat. Many people have talked about their inability to move Ueshiba. Where in modern aikido is this feat replicated? Yet, Kodo, from Daito ryu replicated it. I'd guess if people did the research, Takeda and Sagawa, too. Tenryu was undone because Ueshiba knew the secret of aiki. Those push tests that Ueshiba did were a "hidden in plain sight" for showing an aiki created martial body.

In every encounter with an aiki person, each tester had some martial background, from jujutsu to kenjutsu to sumo to fighting. Yet, every time someone tested an aiki man, that tester was undone and came away with a singularly unique experience. Something they had never felt before. See articles about Ueshiba meeting Takeda, everyone meeting Ueshiba, etc. High ranking kendo people wanted Ueshiba's secret. They called it taisabaki, but it was aiki. In modern aikido, show me where a BJJ, judo, or kendo person has met an aikido person and come away with a singularly unique experience (that wasn't disdain).

Quite a few of the giants of aikido studied under Ueshiba for about 10 years and were regarded as being very good. Show me the modern aikido equivalent where someone has studied modern aikido for about 10 years and is good. Ueshiba himself was less than 10 years. (refer back to previous paragraph for how little other martial arts helped.)

Look at the Daito ryu greats and you find similar abilities that Ueshiba had (push test, stopping people in their tracks, throwing people using a handkerchief, etc). Where in modern aikido are these abilities? Why is it that some in Daito ryu can replicate them? What is Daito ryu aiki and why is it the same as Ueshiba's aikido aiki?

There is no timing in aikido. Rear attacks are dangerous for uke. Power. Where in modern aikido is the person who can actually replicate these skills? Modern aikido relies upon getting offline, drawing the attacker out in some manner whether large or small movement, blending with the attack, etc. No timing, no modern aikido. Ueshiba's ukes have said that they dumped out of the technique before Ueshiba's powerful grip got hold of them. Not physical power. aiki power. The same aiki power that they encountered when attacking from the rear.

Where in modern aikido is another Ueshiba? Where in modern aikido is another Shioda? another giant of aikido? no aiki, no giant, no great. Yet in Daito ryu, Kodo produced at least two greats, who are still living. Sagawa at least one.

At this point, I think students of aikido should be questioning each and every shihan about aiki, about the skills of Ueshiba, about Daito ryu aiki, about the training differences between the founder and the son, the founder and the students, about why Ueshiba's feats were replicated in the Daito ryu world and in some of the aikido greats yet have all but disappeared in modern aikido, about why Ueshiba valued push tests and modern aikido can't replicate what he did, about why the training times were so small compared to modern aikido, why did Tohei go outside to learn internal skills, why did Shioda go to Kodo, etc.

With a broad brush, There is no aiki in modern aikido. Aiki is the defining difference between modern aikido and Ueshiba's aikido. It really is as simple as that.

NOTE: There is no assigning blame here, no pointing fingers. History isn't as neatly packaged to give a clear answer as to why aiki was never taught. In his later years, Ueshiba doesn't seem to have clearly taught it at all. But, then again, was he teaching it but in his own spiritual terms and words? Throw in different eras of Japanese history, Japanese culture, a World War, etc, and you get quite a mixed bag of events.

gregstec

06-11-2010, 07:09 AM

phitruong

06-11-2010, 07:40 AM

For those looking to get started, there is still plenty of material out there available on Tohie's stuff - but once you get an idea of what you need to do, you absolutely must get with someone with these skills to get the proper feedback for making adjustments in your training - it just cannot be done any other way.

Greg

you meant, there is no vulcan mind-meld? no phoenix or youtube online course for IS? I am shock! what kind of scam are you guys running? :D

Rabih Shanshiry

06-11-2010, 07:43 AM

Where in modern aikido is another Shioda?

Mark - do you literally think there is no one in aikido today that can replicate Shioda's feats? Or are you speaking broad brush?

I whole heartedly agree if you are speaking generally about the lack of "aiki" among the vast majority of "shihan" out there.

However, as with all generalizations, there are exceptions to the rule. It is my current working hypothesis that Shioda began teaching internal skills to his higher level students a few years before he died to cement his legacy and preseve the organization he built.

How optimum his training methods were is debateable. However, I believe that at least two Yoshinkan shihan can perform most or all of the same aiki demonstrations as Shioda did.

I'd also like to ask where you got your information about Shioda getting his aiki skills from Kodo. We all know the stories about the two of them spending time together behind closed doors, but I've been hard pressed to find actual documentation of when they met, how many times, and for how long.

Could Shioda have gained his "aiki" from Kodo? I think it's possible but highly unlikely. More likely he learned certain things from Kodo - perhaps refining his skill or adding to his repertoire.

Don't forget - Tenryu supported Shioda when he first started up the Yoshinkan because his aikido was closest to Ueshiba's. Given Tenryu's understanding of "aiki" and the impression it made on him, I really don't think he was talking about jujutsu technique.

The stories I have heard about Shioda training with Kodo all refer to meetings with Shioda after he was Kancho of the Yoshinkan. Therefore, the timing doesn't seem to line up with that theory.

I don't have a preference as to where Shioda got his aiki skills. (We all know that Ueshiba was teaching DR in the early days when Shioda was a student anyway.) I'm just going where I see the historical evidence leading...

gregstec

06-11-2010, 08:12 AM

you meant, there is no vulcan mind-meld? no phoenix or youtube online course for IS? I am shock! what kind of scam are you guys running? :D

Actually there are, but we don't disclose those secrets until after you have signed up and paid for the full program :D

chillzATL

06-11-2010, 08:49 AM

With a broad brush, There is no aiki in modern aikido. Aiki is the defining difference between modern aikido and Ueshiba's aikido. It really is as simple as that.

NOTE: There is no assigning blame here, no pointing fingers. History isn't as neatly packaged to give a clear answer as to why aiki was never taught. In his later years, Ueshiba doesn't seem to have clearly taught it at all. But, then again, was he teaching it but in his own spiritual terms and words? Throw in different eras of Japanese history, Japanese culture, a World War, etc, and you get quite a mixed bag of events.

Mark,

I don't disagree with anything you said, but I'm not sure what value the fire and brimstone aiki talk is going to have long term. Everybody who had "something", put in the time to get it. While we talk about Shioda, Ueshiba and others and this sub-10 year mark, those guys trained for like 8 hours every day to get what they had. Now granted, one can cut that down significantly by getting rid of allt he fluff and tradition in transmission methods that htey had to suffer through, but still, we're talking about a LOT of training time to get to that level. How many aikidoka today do you really think will put in the time? Considering the work involved, why would anyone assume that the ratio of people who get it vs. those who just do waza will be any higher going forward?

06-11-2010, 09:32 AM

Considering the work involved, why would anyone assume that the ratio of people who get it vs. those who just do waza will be any higher going forward?[/QUOTE]
Because there are better ways to train than trying to get it through Kata and forms; ways that are faster, and better for targetting what you are looking for. Additionally there are ways to move, that while not trained in any modern Aikido I have ever seen or felt-never the less fit seemlessly within and bring it to another level- more in keeping with the founder.
IOW, contrary to the internet slams about there not being any shortcuts.. actually there are. I have met some pretty sharp people in these arts. They get it...and they are chasing it.
Cheers
Dan

chillzATL

06-11-2010, 09:50 AM

Because there are better ways to train than trying to get it through Kata and forms; ways that are faster, and better for targetting what you are looking for. Additionally there are ways to move, that while not trained in any modern Aikido I have ever seen or felt-never the less fit seemlessly within and bring it to another level- more in keeping with the founder.
IOW, contrary to the internet slams about there not being any shortcuts.. actually there are. I have met some pretty sharp people in these arts. They get it...and they are chasing it.
Cheers
Dan

I don't disagree at all and even mentioned that in my reply to Mark. That's one of the great benefits to us people who are just coming on board from the work Sigman, Ark and yourself (and others) have already put in. We get a nice jump on the learning curve and get to skip over a lot of the fluff.

06-11-2010, 11:01 AM

Mark,

I don't disagree with anything you said, but I'm not sure what value the fire and brimstone aiki talk is going to have long term. Everybody who had "something", put in the time to get it. While we talk about Shioda, Ueshiba and others and this sub-10 year mark, those guys trained for like 8 hours every day to get what they had.

Jason,

I'll ask an important question here ... Who said "those guys trained for like 8 hours every day to get what they had"? And follow up with, What research backs up that sentence?

There are a lot of things that modern aikido people have taken for granted for way too long. It's ingrained in them. In trying to get outside my own box, I ask a lot of questions. I test theories and ideas. I track down what research I can.

The quotes below are in regards to the Kobukan Dojo training.

The new dojo was used extensively and normally two morning and three evening classes were held at the dojo with uchideshi having an opportunity to practice at other times during the day.

Morihei's teaching style was long on action and short on words. He would execute techniques in rapid succession with almost no explanation. His teaching method was not at all systematic.

Ueshiba Sensei, unlike present instructors at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo, taught techniques by quickly showing the movement just one time. He didn't provide detailed explanations. Even when we asked him to show us the technque again he would say, ‘No. Next technique!' Although he showed us three or four different techniques, we wanted to see the same technique many times. We ended up trying to ‘steal' his techniques.

So, I ask people who said they trained 8 hours a day? And if they did, with whom? How? In what manner?

Personally, I think it's a myth that they all trained 8 hours a day. And given Ueshiba's teaching style, what exactly were they getting? American instructors break everything down, go over it, explain it, and do their best to help a student "get it". Ueshiba did not.

And I ask, which is better? Ueshiba's early teaching style or the detailed explanation teaching style of Americans? Picture yourself seeing a technique once, quickly, then another, quickly, then another, and having to work on those techniques without explanations. How much quality training are you getting in 8 hours? If you did 8 hours of training with 2 morning sessions and 3 evening sessions?

Now granted, one can cut that down significantly by getting rid of allt he fluff and tradition in transmission methods that htey had to suffer through, but still, we're talking about a LOT of training time to get to that level. How many aikidoka today do you really think will put in the time? Considering the work involved, why would anyone assume that the ratio of people who get it vs. those who just do waza will be any higher going forward?

People are getting quality training in aiki right now. And those people coming to train have realized that aiki is missing from modern aikido (broad brush).

There's a lot of myths in modern aikido that need dispelled.

There is no 20 year technique.

Prior martial arts backgrounds did not help students of Ueshiba to learn aiki (the exception being Tenryu who studied ... sumo ... see HiPS Takeda background).

Training times were 10-20 years to get very good with significant progression from there, depending on training style. Note that both Takeda and Ueshiba had similar training experiences. Testing, fighting, etc. Even 5 years of quality training in aiki will set you apart from everyone else. Takeda taught Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo, etc. He showed them how to train aiki and told them not to teach it to everyone. Ueshiba trained in the Kobukan days and knew what to work on. I'm impressed that anyone coming out of that era actually got as good as they did, considering the training style.

There is a specific way to train aiki that includes solo and paired training but doesn't focus on jujutsu techniques.

There were techniques like yonkajo, but these were ways of training the body, while I believe that using them as applied techniques (oyowaza) is a matter of the spirit. The basics went about as far as gokajo, and after that it was applied techniques.
Ways of training the body. Not applied techniques. Aiki is not a technique, but a way of changing the body. Specific ways of training to change the body. Ueshiba was taught aiki. He knew what to work on and how to work on it. Kodo knew it. Sagawa knew it.

I don't disagree at all and even mentioned that in my reply to Mark. That's one of the great benefits to us people who are just coming on board from the work Sigman, Ark and yourself (and others) have already put in. We get a nice jump on the learning curve and get to skip over a lot of the fluff.

It isn't that we're skipping over the "fluff". It is that there is a specific way to train aiki. That training has been lost to modern aikido. Everyone I know who is training aiki has had to start at the beginning. History yet again reasserts itself. Prior martial background doesn't mean much (unless it's specific internal training), prior martial background isn't on par with aiki, and everyone has to put in the work, both solo and paired.

But the training has little to do with jujutsu techniques.

The really big kick in the pants comes later ... After you've trained and have some aiki ... Just what in the world was Ueshiba meaning when he talked about spirituality? :D

Aiki1

06-11-2010, 11:10 AM

.....in the early days, Ki training was the primary focus and I believe Tohie's methods will get you that foot in the door. His four principles of Mind and Body coordination are a good place to start to establish your internal skills foundation - but it is not the end, only the beginning.

.....For those looking to get started, there is still plenty of material out there available on Tohie's stuff - but once you get an idea of what you need to do, you absolutely must get with someone with these skills to get the proper feedback for making adjustments in your training - it just cannot be done any other way.

Greg

I think one of the many problems stems from the (conscious or unconscious) burden most if not all of the uchi deshi under O Sensei would have carried, from feeling they were the representatives of him and his Aikido, along with the effect that had on their egos. O Sensei approached and formulated things from a particular place, in a particular fashion, with a particular set of experiences, inclinations, and gifts that were all unique to him, and when he passed, I think most uchi deshi had to find their way forward by themselves, or in groups of like minds.

It's fairly well-known that O Sensei didn't answer many important questions for them, including a lot of "how to" processes, on both the practical and spiritual levels. Those who took up the task of providing those answers have formulated, and teach, what they believe to be correct. Because, in my opinion, most if not all (Tohei, for me, initially being somewhat of an exception) didn't have the complete picture, a lot of what they have passed down in Aikido became a practice of only a partial aspect of the art, often missing the key (or Ki) ingredients that made, and make, Aikido…. Aikido, and distinguish it from being simply a system of jujitsu based on "aiki-type movements." They came up with their own answers, but have been lacking because they weren't ultimately sourced in the same things that O Sensei's Aikido was, and for me this is a real problem. I'm not talking about Shinto per se, more the training and experiences he had that made him conscious of the deeper skills that come from subtle physical, energetic, and spiritual training.

There are various ways one might describe these "Aiki skills" - centering, energy dispersion and release, ki musubi and tracking at the energetic level, ki power, kuzushi (and tsukuri) at a whole different level, Kinesthetic Invisibility (my original teacher's term), even spiritual guidance - these, and more, in my experience, can be taught and learned.

Some people have more of an affinity (or even a gift) for this stuff than others; that's natural, and that can express itself in various ways, depending on inclination, intention, and need. If the basic training is sound, virtually everyone can get it - that is, experience it, learn to access it, and do/apply it. It's how much or deeply they get it, and where and how far they go with it that is the distinguishing thing.

Aiki1

06-11-2010, 11:38 AM

.....That training has been lost to modern aikido.

.....the training has little to do with jujutsu techniques.

.....The really big kick in the pants comes later ... After you've trained and have some aiki ... Just what in the world was Ueshiba meaning when he talked about spirituality? :D

Basically, I really agree with you, except on one point. If we think of Aiki as only a way of changing the body, or that it only "lives at the physical level" then I feel we are limiting it to only that level of training and experience. To me, it goes way beyond that, into the energetic and spiritual realms as well. This is just my own personal experience.

In fact, I think this is what distinguishes Ueshiba from all, or most of, the others who "got or get Aiki."

chillzATL

06-11-2010, 11:55 AM

Jason,

I'll ask an important question here ... Who said "those guys trained for like 8 hours every day to get what they had"? And follow up with, What research backs up that sentence?

There are a lot of things that modern aikido people have taken for granted for way too long. It's ingrained in them. In trying to get outside my own box, I ask a lot of questions. I test theories and ideas. I track down what research I can.

The quotes below are in regards to the Kobukan Dojo training.

So, I ask people who said they trained 8 hours a day? And if they did, with whom? How? In what manner?

Personally, I think it's a myth that they all trained 8 hours a day. And given Ueshiba's teaching style, what exactly were they getting? American instructors break everything down, go over it, explain it, and do their best to help a student "get it". Ueshiba did not.

Well we're not dealing with absolutes here, but Shioda specifically referenced the typical day as an pre-war uchideshi as being something around 14 hours long (5:30-7:30 I think, without having it here in front of me). I recall similar remarks from others in a variety of aikidojournal interviews. They trained a LOT and of course it wasn't all direct training under Ueshiba, but that doesn't matter. Shioda himself did a lot of paying attention then a lot of figuring things out on his own too, which is still training. I don't really care what the mass of those students were doing, just the ones that really got it.

Ueshiba himself, while he may not have spent eight hours per day in the dojo, he trained ALL day. There are far too many reports of him spending hours in his room chanting (breath work?) and doing who knows what else. It's safe to say that while he honestly wanted to teach "something" to people, his existance as a budo teacher was just as much for him to have a way to continue to improve himself as much or more than it was for him to impart what he "really" knew. That holds true for Takeda, Sagawa and others.

It isn't that we're skipping over the "fluff". It is that there is a specific way to train aiki. That training has been lost to modern aikido. Everyone I know who is training aiki has had to start at the beginning. History yet again reasserts itself. Prior martial background doesn't mean much (unless it's specific internal training), prior martial background isn't on par with aiki, and everyone has to put in the work, both solo and paired.

But the training has little to do with jujutsu techniques.

The really big kick in the pants comes later ... After you've trained and have some aiki ... Just what in the world was Ueshiba meaning when he talked about spirituality? :D

I disagree, it is most definitely skipping over the fluff. When you can take a 30 move form or kata and pull out the two really meaty, quality exercises and do them over and over again, that's skipping over the fluff!

Apart from that, you don't have to sell me on anything Mark. I had the luxury of reading five years worth of posts from you and others arguing against what Mike/Dan/etc were saying until you got and got your hands on someone and were able to happily insert your foot into your mouth. I say that jokingly of course, because I'm quite grateful for that. I read enough until I was convinced that this was worth exploring and fortunately had someone who was willing to actually reply to my emails and point me in a good direction.

As for what Ueshiba was talking about with his spirituality? It had been 17 years or so since I had spent any time bothering to read that stuff, but most of it takes on a completely different meaning to me now. A lot of it actually makes sense, or if nothing else I'm able to convince myself that it does. I try to reconcile heaven and earth within myself on a daily basis and it is most definitely a physical exercises, not a spiritual one, but I don't deny that it makes the spirit feel pretty damned good. :)

06-14-2010, 07:26 AM

Well we're not dealing with absolutes here, but Shioda specifically referenced the typical day as an pre-war uchideshi as being something around 14 hours long (5:30-7:30 I think, without having it here in front of me). I recall similar remarks from others in a variety of aikidojournal interviews. They trained a LOT and of course it wasn't all direct training under Ueshiba, but that doesn't matter. Shioda himself did a lot of paying attention then a lot of figuring things out on his own too, which is still training. I don't really care what the mass of those students were doing, just the ones that really got it.

Not trying to be argumentative, but rather trying to find the underlying research. What portion of an uchideshi's day was spent on training? While they may have spent 14 hours a day in duties, it would be nice to know what portion was actual training. Do you know what articles reference this or their training?

I'd agree that Shioda and the other students did a lot of trying to figure things out, but we have to also remember that Shioda went to Kodo and a lot of what Shioda demonstrates is very close to Kodokai material. We probably won't ever know how much Shioda learned from Ueshiba or Kodo.

Ueshiba himself, while he may not have spent eight hours per day in the dojo, he trained ALL day. There are far too many reports of him spending hours in his room chanting (breath work?) and doing who knows what else.

To get that good, I think we both agree that Ueshiba was obsessive about training. I think he did a lot of "solo training". Which brings up the question of where is all that solo training now, in modern aikido?

I disagree, it is most definitely skipping over the fluff. When you can take a 30 move form or kata and pull out the two really meaty, quality exercises and do them over and over again, that's skipping over the fluff!

I guess we'll disagree here. Because after working solo exercises and paired exercises, I can see where most, if not all, aikido training can house aiki. Not as currently done in modern aikido but that's because aiki is missing and "replacement" moves (i.e. jujutsu principles) were used to fill in the gaps. This is where "timing" and "body placement" came into being in aikido. Look at the quote I posted about yonkyo being a body exercise, not a technique. Modern aikido uses yonkyo as a technique. Things changed, but it isn't about yonkyo being fluff. Instead, it's about revamping yonkyo to become what it was originally intended.

All the "warm up" exercises? Definitely can be used to build aiki. All the "techniques"? Why are they sooooo different than koryu jujutsu? They weren't really jujutsu after all, but vehicles/houses for the foundation of training aiki. No fluff in the kata/waza/techniques. Just missing the foundation of aiki.

Apart from that, you don't have to sell me on anything Mark. I had the luxury of reading five years worth of posts from you and others arguing against what Mike/Dan/etc were saying until you got and got your hands on someone and were able to happily insert your foot into your mouth. I say that jokingly of course, because I'm quite grateful for that.

I think you have me confused with someone else. I met Dan in 2006. Prior to that, I was not in the group of people arguing with him for years. Sometime in 2006 (if memory serves me right. I doubt it was 2005), I had a run of posts with Dan on E-Budo leading up to me meeting him in Oct. That was the first mention of Dan that I had. The archives are out there for all to check. Wasn't me arguing with Dan/Mike/Rob/etc.

06-14-2010, 07:51 AM

Mark - do you literally think there is no one in aikido today that can replicate Shioda's feats? Or are you speaking broad brush?

I whole heartedly agree if you are speaking generally about the lack of "aiki" among the vast majority of "shihan" out there.

However, as with all generalizations, there are exceptions to the rule. It is my current working hypothesis that Shioda began teaching internal skills to his higher level students a few years before he died to cement his legacy and preseve the organization he built.

How optimum his training methods were is debateable. However, I believe that at least two Yoshinkan shihan can perform most or all of the same aiki demonstrations as Shioda did.

We have to remember that high level jujutsu skills can mimic and look exactly like internal skills. The main difference is to the attacker or uke as they will feel entirely and completely different.

I'm sure there are still people out there who have had hands on time with Shioda. If those people have had hands on time with the shihan you think can replicate the aiki demonstrations, then ask them if those shihan feel like Shioda.

If they say no, you'll know that you're seeing high level jujutsu instead of aiki (again, nothing wrong with high level jujutsu. Great skill to have). If they say some parts do and don't, then you'll know somewhere along the lines, aiki wasn't entirely taught. If they say yes, well, there ya go. A good sign that Shioda passed on what he knew.

With all the aikido people training with Dan, have you? If you've felt these shihan you've mentioned and then trained with Dan, you will have direct first hand experience to make an informed decision about aiki in the Yoshinkan. Like other areas in the Budo world, you won't hear about a lot of things here on Aikiweb, but behind the scenes, it's an interesting turn of events.

I'd also like to ask where you got your information about Shioda getting his aiki skills from Kodo. We all know the stories about the two of them spending time together behind closed doors, but I've been hard pressed to find actual documentation of when they met, how many times, and for how long.

Could Shioda have gained his "aiki" from Kodo? I think it's possible but highly unlikely. More likely he learned certain things from Kodo - perhaps refining his skill or adding to his repertoire.

If you're looking for documentation, I'd suggest the Kodokai. Other than that, I doubt you'll find any in the aikido world. As for aiki ... as I mentioned in another post, I don't think anyone will ever know just how much Shioda learned from Ueshiba or Kodo.

Perhaps Shioda learned a good bit from Ueshiba but was at a point where he couldn't progress and Ueshiba's "spiritual" discourses weren't making sense, so Shioda went to Kodo for a breakthrough?

Maybe Shioda didn't think he learned all that much but when he went to Kodo, a lot of "lights" clicked on from Ueshiba's training sessions?

If nothing else, I would imagine Shioda, Tomiki, Shirata, and some others were chasing the aiki they felt from Takeda. Since that aiki was a rarity, there weren't all that many teachers to turn to and it was a very closely guarded secret. Any avenue to get better was worth approaching. Shioda was very lucky to get to train with both Ueshiba and Kodo.

chillzATL

06-14-2010, 09:10 AM

Not trying to be argumentative, but rather trying to find the underlying research. What portion of an uchideshi's day was spent on training? While they may have spent 14 hours a day in duties, it would be nice to know what portion was actual training. Do you know what articles reference this or their training?

I believe it was his in his interviews on AJ.

I'd agree that Shioda and the other students did a lot of trying to figure things out, but we have to also remember that Shioda went to Kodo and a lot of what Shioda demonstrates is very close to Kodokai material. We probably won't ever know how much Shioda learned from Ueshiba or Kodo.

I could be mistaken, but I believe their meeting was well after Shioda had already made a name for himself and had some skill. I agree as far as ever knowing just what he learned.

To get that good, I think we both agree that Ueshiba was obsessive about training. I think he did a lot of "solo training". Which brings up the question of where is all that solo training now, in modern aikido?

Well, I think that's what Tohei tried to do with the taiso. While he gets credit for developing the taiso, he did so under the watchful eye and with the approval of Ueshiba, based on things Ueshiba himself did. The problem is that it doesn't seem like many people actually knew what they were supposed to be doing or feeling in the Taiso and even further, most people view those as warmups, not solo exercises. Then again, how many people ever ask?

I guess we'll disagree here. Because after working solo exercises and paired exercises, I can see where most, if not all, aikido training can house aiki. Not as currently done in modern aikido but that's because aiki is missing and "replacement" moves (i.e. jujutsu principles) were used to fill in the gaps. This is where "timing" and "body placement" came into being in aikido. Look at the quote I posted about yonkyo being a body exercise, not a technique. Modern aikido uses yonkyo as a technique. Things changed, but it isn't about yonkyo being fluff. Instead, it's about revamping yonkyo to become what it was originally intended.

All the "warm up" exercises? Definitely can be used to build aiki. All the "techniques"? Why are they sooooo different than koryu jujutsu? They weren't really jujutsu after all, but vehicles/houses for the foundation of training aiki. No fluff in the kata/waza/techniques. Just missing the foundation of aiki.

I don't see any disagreement , just a misunderstanding of my use of the term fluff, but that's not problem. As far as how this training relates to Aikido, I think we're in perfect agreement. I now see things like the taiso and the actual waza can be used to build these skills and I think that was most definitely Ueshiba's intention. I can't say I'm really convinced that htey're the most efficient way, but if one wanted to keep what they're doing strictly in the aikdo realm, I think there's definitely enough meat there to get something as long as you have like minded partners and good instruction at the top.

I think you have me confused with someone else. I met Dan in 2006. Prior to that, I was not in the group of people arguing with him for years. Sometime in 2006 (if memory serves me right. I doubt it was 2005), I had a run of posts with Dan on E-Budo leading up to me meeting him in Oct. That was the first mention of Dan that I had. The archives are out there for all to check. Wasn't me arguing with Dan/Mike/Rob/etc.

Sorry for confusing you with someone else then, either way, I'm glad there were plenty of other people out there who did the arguing, else I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today.

06-14-2010, 09:22 AM

If nothing else, I would imagine Shioda, Tomiki, Shirata, and some others were chasing the aiki they felt from Takeda. Since that aiki was a rarity, there weren't all that many teachers to turn to and it was a very closely guarded secret. Any avenue to get better was worth approaching. Shioda was very lucky to get to train with both Ueshiba and Kodo.
I don't think it is that simple Mark. And I definitely don't think Shioda, Tomiki and Shirata were chasing the aiki of Takeda. They were chasing the aiki of Ueshiba. IIRC, Shioda never met Takeda. There were "others" as you mentioned, but some of them did not like Takeda much and chose to train with Ueshiba instead. Admiral Takeshita was one of them.
Shioda's training was mainly with Ueshiba. While his training with Kodo was not extensive, it was what was covered, what he said about Kodo's skills, and how it changed his own practice in a different direction that is of interest. This ties back into your thoughts on exposure, and training times of Ueshiba's students and what they did or didn't get. How,does that relates to Bills own ideas on Ki in Aikido?

Time in- V exposure to correct practice:
Bill's comments, were you to hear them fleshed out, is that most people are not doing aikido correctly. That they are pursuing waza and external movement instead of ki and so they end up missing aiki. There is no amount of "time" that will change that. Change requires a shift in thought and direction; with MA that can come as an epiphany or from exposure to new schools of thought..

You have heard similar things yourself-now from other teachers, not only in AIkido, but other arts as well. How many times, in different places, have you met teachers who told you the information they just received, ( in some very short time frames) and the training they just encountered has changed their aikido forever; the way they see it, teach it and want to train it? You have heard people say they will NEVER go back to doing aikido the same ever again.
How is that any different, than:
Ueshiba saying Takeda "Opened my eyes to true budo."
Hisa meeting Takeda after training with Ueshiba and saying this was completely different then Ueshiba (at that time)
Shioda meeting Kodo and what he said to him, then his aikido changing, with him even copying the moves he is famous for.
Is it so far fetched to think that even a short exposure would change someones goals and practice forever?
And what did that change always revolve around...the pursuit of aiki.

So, as Bill noted,"Ki in aikido" is not a concept that produced a reality in movement and delivery from everyone who claimed to have it. Hence, the ki wars that happened. Now circling back, that seems to be changing again....through exposure.
Cheers
Dan

06-14-2010, 09:41 AM

Well, I think that's what Tohei tried to do with the taiso. While he gets credit for developing the taiso, he did so under the watchful eye and with the approval of Ueshiba, based on things Ueshiba himself did.
Again I would suggest you go back and read what Tohei actually said about what he got and from whom.
You can continue to repeat your view that he found it and developed it under Ueshiba's watchful eye. Lord knows you will find many who will agree with you. I think you would find it worthwhile to check in with what the man said and see how that aligns with your opinions of where he got it from.

I don't see any disagreement , just a misunderstanding of my use of the term fluff, but that's not problem. As far as how this training relates to Aikido, I think we're in perfect agreement. I now see things like the taiso and the actual waza can be used to build these skills and I think that was most definitely Ueshiba's intention. I can't say I'm really convinced that htey're the most efficient way, but if one wanted to keep what they're doing strictly in the aikdo realm, I think there's definitely enough meat there to get something as long as you have like minded partners and good instruction at the top.
Actually I have never once thought that Tohei's movements and understanding were the same as Ueshiba's. Some basic things regarding center are, but IP/aiki is not all the same; particularly in how you choose to move with it.

Sorry for confusing you with someone else then, either way, I'm glad there were plenty of other people out there who did the arguing, else I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today.
Mark's initial meeting with me was the result of some of the infamous arguments that happened here over "Aikido ™ missing real aiki" that Mark read but did not participate in. Mark was sharp enough to just wait and then got out to check out Mike, Ark, me, Ikeda, Popkin, etc...all without (as you noted) putting his foot in his mouth. He continues to explore by meeting others, and testing it with some of the top guys -in- aikido.
Cheers
Dan

chillzATL

06-14-2010, 10:19 AM

Again I would suggest you go back and read what Tohei actually said about what he got and from whom.
You can continue to repeat your view that he found it and developed it under Ueshiba's watchful eye. Lord knows you will find many who will agree with you. I think you would find it worthwhile to check in with what the man said and see how that aligns with your opinions of where he got it from.

I'm familiar with his AJ interviews and his claim that Ueshiba really only taught him 'how to relax", but I also know the lengths the man went to distance himself from the Ueshiba side of the art following the split. He was scorned, and rightfully so, so it's hard to take a comment like that all that seriously considering everything involved. Considering all the bad blood I don't think it's a stretch to think that.

The early 1961-ish books he put out and videos were all done with Ueshiba's approval and they all contain the taiso. In addition to that, you can see plenty of vids of Ueshiba doing things like funekogi, furitama and other things that contained movements that became the taiso. While Tohei obviously got things elsewhere too, the bouncing ball of logic tends to support that he got things from Ueshiba too.

Go a step further and factor in that he was the chosen son for a long time. Ueshiba obviously approved of what he was doing enough to let him put out books and videos with all of this stuff representing HIS art.

jonreading

06-14-2010, 11:17 AM

I read Gleason Sensei's comments to be driven at the observation that aikido students are incorrectly training and therefore not learning about the larger message inherent in aikido.

I believe that after many years exposed to bright minds and skilled practitioners that the curriculum of aikido would advance to be more efficient. In fact, I believe there should be constant pressure on aikido to provide better instruction (and therefore accelerated learning). While I saw "shortcut" expressed in a couple of posts, I am more comfortable expressing that advancement as an evolution of training method. Contrary to what we all saw in Rocky 3, using free weights is probably more efficient than pulling a railroad tie (I know...crushing). I think shortcut implies a bypass in effort, where I would argue we should be better educated on where to focus instruction and how to yield better results.

I believe the issue at hand lies [in part] with the curriculum cutting out instruction elements rather than advancing training methods to maintain a [more] complete curriculum. Each instructor is faced with what curriculum to present and how to present the curriculum within a reasonable expectation of time... Ultimately then reaching the challenge to review whether the curriculum accomplished the desired goal...

Early pioneers like Tohei or Shioda or Saito or (insert name here) were bigger than their aikido because they were the first. Many great aikido people can emulate previous demonstrations and techniques that were done by these early instructors, but that does not make them equal. I think we need to put pressure on our [current] pioneers to do more than was was previously done. Unbendable arm? Seriously, after 50 years unbendable arm is still aikido? After 50 years we still start our demonstrations and magic shows with unbendable arm? Where is the advancement?

We have a generation of great aikido people who are on the forefront of advancing our practice. I believe we need these individuals not only be be another Shioda, or Tohei, or Saito, or (insert name here), they need to be better. We have already seen these aikido greats; now we need to see new greats...

Aiki1

06-14-2010, 06:18 PM

I think this is tricky because in my opinion, clarity about what O Sensei was actually doing, and where it was sourced from, is not generally present.

Was Shioda Ueshiba's "equal" because he could apparently perform Aiki in at least a similar manner as him? Was Tohei (whose Aiki skills were pretty good back then)? Does being "as good or better" than "those types of Shihan" mean that one is then at least as "good" as O Sensei, or even better? And what does "better" actually mean?

My answers come from my own relationship with what Aiki and Aikido are, and the idea that, for me, there is no Aikido without Ki and Aiki, but there can certainly be Ki and Aiki without Aikido. Aiki skills, internal skills, Ki and Ki power etc., are various descriptions of fundamental elements of Aikido, but they are not Aikido itself.

To me, O Sensei's Aikido became the conscious application of those skills in a certain manner, with a certain intention. This includes both martial and spiritual application, and for me, the sense that the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.

To do (this kind of) Aikido, one must have a handle on Ki and Aiki skills, and (more than just the technical skills of Aiki-style jujitsu) the specific martial skills that emerge from them. But that is not enough. The "appropriate" intentionality behind it must also be present in it's application and the experience that one has, and that one imparts, to both student, and "recipient."

In modern training and practice, I personally don't see much in the way of (what I feel are) Ki and Aiki skills, nor of what I think of as Aikido. The skills are there to learn. Someone to teach them, very few and far between. How far one goes with them I suppose depends on many things, not the least of which is how much time one has, and what sacrifices one is willing to make in one's life.

In the end, we each follow our own path, for better or worse.

As far as unbendable arm goes, I don't think the issue is it's "anachronistic presence" in a modern-day demo, but whether or not it's being taught at all, and if so, is it being taught correctly.

dps

06-15-2010, 04:59 AM

As far as unbendable arm goes, I don't think the issue is it's "anachronistic presence" in a modern-day demo, but whether or not it's being taught at all, and if so, is it being taught correctly.

Or if it is being taught correctly if it is being used correctly or at all.

David

06-15-2010, 07:33 AM

Good points Larry
We do each follow our own paths don't we, but how many are blazing a trail with a new vision and how many wandered off someone else's path ....into the weeds?

Your idea of taking the art forward may actually -require- the same sort of dynamics and trouble that was birthed in earlier times. People have noted the contentions between Takeda /Ueshiba and we had others like Ueshiba/ Hisa, Kisshomaru/Tohei. Maybe some or even most of that was the result of real vision. Vision in the MA in fact causes divisions. At least a couple of VERY well known teachers have laughed at the new IP/aiki movement saying..."It's good to finally shake things up a bit."

One could observe
1. The aiki arts were different from the established Koryu in their day
2. Their advocates were considered incredible Mixed Martial Artists, who took challenges.
3. They were openly acknowledged as being different from normal martial arts and each ended up on their own

Moving forward, where are the greats in the aiki arts now who even spar? What are they doing that anyone would really consider truly amazing in this age? Unbendable arm and aiki-age from semi cooperative wrist grabbing, and stupid jin tricks, may be all that's left in most circles.
Dan

chillzATL

06-15-2010, 09:50 AM

Moving forward, where are the greats in the aiki arts now who even spar? What are they doing that anyone would really consider truly amazing in this age? Unbendable arm and aiki-age from semi cooperative wrist grabbing, and stupid jin tricks, may be all that's left in most circles.
Dan

It's going to take someone showing up in the cage, winning and saying their style is "aiki" for anyone (masses) to really consider it amazing or even care. I've got friends who work for the top MMA magazine in the country and I've tried talking to them about this stuff. I've tried to get them to go to Tokyo and feel what Ark is doing. They shrug me off and say "talk to me when someone is in the cage with it". Yet their newest issue has an article written by the guy who hosts that "Human Weapon" show about the top five most underrated martial arts.

Basically they're giving their time to someone to talk about martial arts that none of them take seriously, but won't take the time to go out and feel something that I assure them will leave them scratching their heads and most likely, wanting more.

jonreading

06-15-2010, 10:55 AM

Aiki1

06-15-2010, 07:27 PM

We do each follow our own paths don't we, but how many are blazing a trail with a new vision and how many wandered off someone else's path ....into the weeds?

Well, in all honesty, I have to say, sadly (because of the state of things), that I completely agree with what you are really saying.

But happily, Aiki, and the Aikido that comes from it, is not dead, just... hidden.... ahem.... in, well.... plain... sight.... here and there.... ;)

Aiki1

06-15-2010, 07:38 PM

Or if it is being taught correctly if it is being used correctly or at all.

David

Good point.

Jon Marshall

06-16-2010, 02:07 PM

Gorgeous George

06-16-2010, 02:30 PM

I would argue that good aiki is in the cage, aikido people just can't see it anymore because it looks [so] different than what we practice. Look at the attack angles of George St. Pierre, or the center-line shifts Anderson Silva takes before he strikes. Look at how fighters break balance before executing a technique... They may not call it aiki, but many of MMA fighters can express their aiki better than we can - we just refuse to acknowledge some brute is more in tune with the namesake of our art than we are... Not to mention the fact that they can do it under a circumstance in which we can hardly perform..

I guess one definition of aiki - in this context, certainly - is yielding, and taking the path of least resistance by allowing the person to do what they want, harmonising with this intent, and adding your power to it.
Whereas what I see in the UFC is a lot of fighters with a wrestling base, who use brute force - in direct conflict with the strength of their opponent - hence the success of Matt Hughes for a long time, for instance, who would pick people up - while they actively used their strength to resist - and slam them.
Chuck Liddell is likewise not concerned with aiki as I understand it - he just gathers as much force into a fist to someone's face, regardless of how 'strong' their face is...

I've seen plenty of things in the UFC where i think: 'He should allow him to push his wrist, as he has put such a lot of strength into doing so, that if he removed his resistance quickly, that would unbalance him' etc. - but instead they struggle against one another, not achieving the harmony which, in my opinion, and a lot of others', is what aiki(do) is.

I was interested with the matter of using atemi to create openings/destroy the posture of somebody before applying a technique when I saw Cro Cop do exactly that to get the choke on that guy on Saturday.
It worked then (beautifully), but i've seen plenty of instances in the UFC where people attempt the same choke on an opponent who can still actively resist. Aiki (I think) is not about doing what you want - it's about doing what your opponent/partner wants: you 'yield' to them, as Gozo Shioda said - you have no intent: you assist the other in their intent, but in the process bring about a different outcome.

When GSP and Anderson Silva can do it in a(n actual) war, like O'sensei, Koichi Tohei, Gozo Shioda, and many more aikidoka did, who faced death on a daily basis for years, then returned to civilian life to practice aikido in the way we now practice it, i'll regard the mindset of MMA sportsmen as more valuable/brave than that of aikidoka.

Aiki1

06-16-2010, 02:45 PM

Oops, messed that up. Try again...

Larry Novick wrote:
Basically, I really agree with you [Mark Murray], except on one point. If we think of Aiki as only a way of changing the body, or that it only "lives at the physical level" then I feel we are limiting it to only that level of training and experience. To me, it goes way beyond that, into the energetic and spiritual realms as well. This is just my own personal experience.

In fact, I think this is what distinguishes Ueshiba from all, or most of, the others who "got or get Aiki."

Yes, I thought Ueshiba made it quite clear that the aiki he was talking about was different to the aiki that others had spoken of. I think it's fair to assume, given how much Ueshiba spoke about spirituality and the divine, that he was talking about spiritual realms and going beyond body or mind-body aiki. So maybe he thought that one could bypass the grosser mind-body aiki (the stuff that actually works in fights, and which we call Internal Skills) and go straight to a more spiritual expression of aiki. i.e. that it was not so much that Ueshiba was unwilling to teach mind-body aiki, but that he thought he was teaching something better - higher.

Could this may have been Ueshiba's big mistake? That he pitched his teachings too high and failed to remember how necessary his foundation in mind-body aiki training was to his, later, more spiritual understanding of aiki. This would explain why, as Jon Reading suggested, we are not finding enlightenment AND can't fight very well.

Just a hypothesis,
Jon.

Jon - I think you have hit on a profoundly important point here, and relevant in how one approaches "Aiki training."

"Aiki skills" gained through subtle physical reorganization are great, and provide something that is, I think, missing in most Aikido training. But in my world, I can't stop there. The energetic and spiritual levels add, for me, expanded dimensions of experience and training such that one can approach even the "physical level" Aiki skills from a slightly different posture - that of connecting to an internal experience that then provides the outer reorganization and skills.

As you point out, I too think this is what O Sensei was ultimately more in tune with, and was trying to get through to his students about. At that point, few seemed to be interested, or to get it. But I think this is what Tohei was trying to point to - attending to a deeper internal experience - what he would eventually call "mind-body unification" - and, in learning to maintain the integrity of that inner, dynamic state, have that be the guiding experiential principle to gain the "other skills." Since, as you say/imply (if I understand you correctly), both levels seem to be generally missing from modern Aikido training, things have.... gone awry....

Added to that, since O Sensei's focus clearly was, in the end, spiritual, I think he stopped separating "Aiki skills", which can be applied to many things, from "Aikido", which is another aspect of this whole thing.

Jon Marshall

06-17-2010, 11:36 AM

Budd

06-17-2010, 11:55 AM

I guess one definition of aiki - in this context, certainly - is yielding, and taking the path of least resistance by allowing the person to do what they want, harmonising with this intent, and adding your power to it.
Whereas what I see in the UFC is a lot of fighters with a wrestling base, who use brute force - in direct conflict with the strength of their opponent - hence the success of Matt Hughes for a long time, for instance, who would pick people up - while they actively used their strength to resist - and slam them.
Chuck Liddell is likewise not concerned with aiki as I understand it - he just gathers as much force into a fist to someone's face, regardless of how 'strong' their face is...

George, do you have any experience at all in a MMA paradigm to lend any credibility these words? With lots of time in a grappling setting (wrestling, submissions, etc.) I'd put the body sensitivity skills (sense of center, sensitivity to another's position) one develops in that setting to be far superior than most things I've seen in the average aikido dojo. I'd substitue "the surgical application of power" for your (I'd hazard uneducated and non-experiential) description of "brute force".

I've seen plenty of things in the UFC where i think: 'He should allow him to push his wrist, as he has put such a lot of strength into doing so, that if he removed his resistance quickly, that would unbalance him' etc. - but instead they struggle against one another, not achieving the harmony which, in my opinion, and a lot of others', is what aiki(do) is.

I would welcome you to visit any MMA gym of repute and see how that works out for you. This notion of "harmony" that you posit I think has a lot more to do with "cooperation" . . which is a noble philosophical aim and definitely has its place in training, but has little to do with managing someone coming at you with the intent to really do harm.

I was interested with the matter of using atemi to create openings/destroy the posture of somebody before applying a technique when I saw Cro Cop do exactly that to get the choke on that guy on Saturday.
It worked then (beautifully), but i've seen plenty of instances in the UFC where people attempt the same choke on an opponent who can still actively resist. Aiki (I think) is not about doing what you want - it's about doing what your opponent/partner wants: you 'yield' to them, as Gozo Shioda said - you have no intent: you assist the other in their intent, but in the process bring about a different outcome.

Actually, I think your interpretation is a bit simplistic . . if you look deeper into the context of the discussion, then you get into the notion of having a coordinated body that can "borrow another person's force" in a manner that 1) Offsets any power they can bring to bear on you 2) Makes it possible for that person to defeat themselves when their power is returned to them = aiki from an applicative perspective.

When GSP and Anderson Silva can do it in a(n actual) war, like O'sensei, Koichi Tohei, Gozo Shioda, and many more aikidoka did, who faced death on a daily basis for years, then returned to civilian life to practice aikido in the way we now practice it, i'll regard the mindset of MMA sportsmen as more valuable/brave than that of aikidoka.

Wow, I really have no idea what relevant kind of point you are trying to make with this comment at all . . .

Aiki1

06-17-2010, 01:40 PM

Hi Larry,

The problem, as I see it, is that Aiki as in Internal Skills can be measured fairly objectively, whereas Aiki as spirituality cannot. So I think it's the IS foundation that's lacking rather than the spirituality, since spirituality can and is reinvented within each individual.

If we're to use aiki as spiritual path then we surely need the foundation of internal skills, otherwise the word loses its' significance (we could just as easily say satori). But with a good aiki (IS) foundation, those who want to pursue a spiritual vision with it can do so. What's more, that foundation does not have to be taught by people whose focus particularly spiritual.

My take on the spirituality thing is pragmatic. The perfect aikido waza subdues without injuring, which is spiritual in my book. But, as many knowledgeable people argue, this is only realistic in a fight when you are very dominant. And that's when the aiki comes in.

Jon.

Spirituality, in-and-of-itself, cannot be measured, to be sure. My point is simply that these skills can indeed be developed from both, though different, directions, and the results can be "objectively measured" in either case, in that sense. My guess is that O Sensei did both, but that's only a guess.

True, most, by far, who try to "take the 'spiritual' path" (or think they are) don't get the skills though, in my observation. Sometimes the result is to the detriment of Aikido.

Aiki1

06-17-2010, 01:42 PM

....This notion of "harmony" that you posit I think has a lot more to do with "cooperation" . .

As an aside, back a good decade and more ago, I had the opportunity to hang around and observe Rickson Gracie a fair amount, for a while. I watched him teach, train, and roll (grapple.) He was doing something that almost no one else I have ever seen in BJJ really does. Totally effortless, flowing, really amazing stuff. Shocking at times in fact, how easy it was for him. I would definitely call it Aiki in a practical sense. He wasn't manifesting "everything" that one might classify as "internal Aiki skills" but his ability to use the other person's intention, movement, and in essence, energy, was phenomenal. So, somebody out there, at least, has some sense of deeper skills and their application.

Similarly though to what some are pointing to in Aikido, most BJJ practitioners are not doing what he is doing, nor do they necessarily know that that level of skill etc. exists.

One thing he used to say, and this was not a mis-translation on his part, was "flow with the go" as opposed to the conventional phrase. I liked that a lot.

Scott Harrington

06-17-2010, 04:37 PM

Regarding Shoida of the Yoshinkan branch, there has been mention of his spending some training time with Kodo Horikawa besides his training with Ueshiba.

However, in addition from "Aikido Shugyo" in a footnote on pg 153 we get the tidbit, "Shioda Kancho says that during his years at the Ueshiba Dojo, he once had the opportunity to act as uke for Sokaku."

I have wondered if this time led him to eventually train with Kodo later in his life, having experienced first hand the effect (affect) of aiki.

Scott Harrington

Budd

06-17-2010, 09:20 PM

As an aside, back a good decade and more ago, I had the opportunity to hang around and observe Rickson Gracie a fair amount, for a while. I watched him teach, train, and roll (grapple.) He was doing something that almost no one else I have ever seen in BJJ really does. Totally effortless, flowing, really amazing stuff. Shocking at times in fact, how easy it was for him. I would definitely call it Aiki in a practical sense. He wasn't manifesting "everything" that one might classify as "internal Aiki skills" but his ability to use the other person's intention, movement, and in essence, energy, was phenomenal. So, somebody out there, at least, has some sense of deeper skills and their application.

Similarly though to what some are pointing to in Aikido, most BJJ practitioners are not doing what he is doing, nor do they necessarily know that that level of skill etc. exists.

One thing he used to say, and this was not a mis-translation on his part, was "flow with the go" as opposed to the conventional phrase. I liked that a lot.

Two further (Potential) asides . .

1) For a long time (maybe still? I'm less in touch with those circles these days) - Rickson was considered by many to be the standard bearer for BJJ of his generation. His competition record across a number of grappling sports (judo, bjj, sambo, wrestling) is impressive, to say the least, add on to it his accomplishments as one of the pioneer champions of MMA outside of Brazil . . the question is a valid one - is he teaching people BJJ tm or is he teaching them to do what he does (or where's the overlap versus where's the gap, if any)? No dog or assumption in this one, just more questions.

2) There's been a number of conversations behind the scenes about some of the curriculum and training methodologies of BJJ at certain levels where there's "secret teachings" that may point to some training of jin and ki/kokyu. I know when Royler Gracie flipped me over from the guard years ago at a seminar, there was smooth movement and good leverage at least, but my uninitiated-into-any-explicit-internals self at that point didn't know whether it was internal strength or just explosive movement combined with good position. The level of sophistication and depth of internals in BJJ, who knows? But I think like many arts that come from older traditions, there was a time when it was more widespread and some things get emphasized/dropped/lost over time so . . *shrugs* . . . maybe yes, maybe no.

Aiki1

06-22-2010, 07:07 PM

Two further (Potential) asides . .

1) For a long time (maybe still? I'm less in touch with those circles these days) - Rickson was considered by many to be the standard bearer for BJJ of his generation. His competition record across a number of grappling sports (judo, bjj, sambo, wrestling) is impressive, to say the least, add on to it his accomplishments as one of the pioneer champions of MMA outside of Brazil . . the question is a valid one - is he teaching people BJJ tm or is he teaching them to do what he does (or where's the overlap versus where's the gap, if any)? No dog or assumption in this one, just more questions.

2) There's been a number of conversations behind the scenes about some of the curriculum and training methodologies of BJJ at certain levels where there's "secret teachings" that may point to some training of jin and ki/kokyu. I know when Royler Gracie flipped me over from the guard years ago at a seminar, there was smooth movement and good leverage at least, but my uninitiated-into-any-explicit-internals self at that point didn't know whether it was internal strength or just explosive movement combined with good position. The level of sophistication and depth of internals in BJJ, who knows? But I think like many arts that come from older traditions, there was a time when it was more widespread and some things get emphasized/dropped/lost over time so . . *shrugs* . . . maybe yes, maybe no.

I think Rickson is trying to teach what he actually does, but I don't know who is really getting it. As far as "deeper training", Rickson is an a yoga adept and practices Ginastica Natural. If that's unfamiliar, it is described as "a mixture of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu ground exercises, yoga, stretching, breathing techniques and strength training."

Budd

06-23-2010, 08:20 AM

I think Rickson is trying to teach what he actually does, but I don't know who is really getting it.

Are you still in the loop enough there to make that call? (not questioning "who the heck are YOU?" but more "do you have a sense what they're up to, now?") I don't hear of a lot of guys from that space (although one of my former BJJ training buddies was one of Rickson's blue belts back in the 90s when the UFCs were first getting started ) anymore, so I don't know what the focus of the curriculum is - if it's Rickson't "stuff", BJJ, MMA, some combo, a tiered school with a big flock to keep the lights on and an inner circle that does the real training - hard to tell.

As far as "deeper training", Rickson is an a yoga adept and practices Ginastica Natural. If that's unfamiliar, it is described as "a mixture of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu ground exercises, yoga, stretching, breathing techniques and strength training."

I'm familiar with those disciplines and while I don't disagree that Rickson particularly might have added "stuff" to his game and bodyskillset in that practice - I'm more talking about the "stuff" that is inside traditional BJJ practice (as brought over in the "judo" at that time from Japan). If you look at the mythology of BJJ (or history, depending on your level of dogma), Helio "discovered" a way in which jujitsu could better be used to beat someone larger than you . . etc . . with some very ancillary conversations behind the scenes I wouldn't be surprised if some of the less sophisticated ki/kokyu stuffs hadn't made their way into it. Helio, being smaller and in his research to "maximize" leverage and the application of force . . well . . *follows bread crumbs that may or may not be imaginary*

And I wouldn't necessarily go there, either if I hadn't talked to a few folks that, when feeling this kind of weird strength, didn't start talking about how their teachers or teacher's teacher in brazil would be talking about using breath and pressure and intent to effect a lock or submission or change in position. I tend not to put much stock into "my teacher sez" with regard to how something works because there have been whole generations of a system where the advocates parrot jargon and make things up.

However, if there is something to it, at the very least there's an implication that more of this ki/kokyu stuff was wider spread, wasn't well explained and subsequently has been lost in transmission in a number of places.

Who knows? Perhaps it was never that high a priority . . but in my experiences feeling someone with or without this sort of unusual power - regardless of your abilities to apply it - having this kind of development effects your overall quality of life (for the better - and that's a generalization, but I think relevant to the other "on fire" thread in the General section with regard to size, health, habits, etc.).

As it's been a hobby of mine to see how IS fits better into a grappling (and moving on into MMA) paradigm, I see some breadcrumbs that are already there, even if enough have been eaten or misplaced to obscure the path, it provides something of an "up" or "down" directional vector for hopefully further ascending the budo mountain.

In terms of aikido - at this point in my martial hobby training - aikido is a luxury choice you can make based on doing all of the "other work" that makes such a choice possible.

Aiki1

06-23-2010, 09:45 AM

Are you still in the loop enough there to make that call? (not questioning "who the heck are YOU?" but more "do you have a sense what they're up to, now?") I don't hear of a lot of guys from that space (although one of my former BJJ training buddies was one of Rickson's blue belts back in the 90s when the UFCs were first getting started ) anymore, so I don't know what the focus of the curriculum is - if it's Rickson't "stuff", BJJ, MMA, some combo, a tiered school with a big flock to keep the lights on and an inner circle that does the real training - hard to tell.

I'm familiar with those disciplines and while I don't disagree that Rickson particularly might have added "stuff" to his game and bodyskillset in that practice - I'm more talking about the "stuff" that is inside traditional BJJ practice (as brought over in the "judo" at that time from Japan). If you look at the mythology of BJJ (or history, depending on your level of dogma), Helio "discovered" a way in which jujitsu could better be used to beat someone larger than you . . etc . . with some very ancillary conversations behind the scenes I wouldn't be surprised if some of the less sophisticated ki/kokyu stuffs hadn't made their way into it. Helio, being smaller and in his research to "maximize" leverage and the application of force . . well . . *follows bread crumbs that may or may not be imaginary*

And I wouldn't necessarily go there, either if I hadn't talked to a few folks that, when feeling this kind of weird strength, didn't start talking about how their teachers or teacher's teacher in brazil would be talking about using breath and pressure and intent to effect a lock or submission or change in position. I tend not to put much stock into "my teacher sez" with regard to how something works because there have been whole generations of a system where the advocates parrot jargon and make things up.

However, if there is something to it, at the very least there's an implication that more of this ki/kokyu stuff was wider spread, wasn't well explained and subsequently has been lost in transmission in a number of places.

Who knows? Perhaps it was never that high a priority . . but in my experiences feeling someone with or without this sort of unusual power - regardless of your abilities to apply it - having this kind of development effects your overall quality of life (for the better - and that's a generalization, but I think relevant to the other "on fire" thread in the General section with regard to size, health, habits, etc.).

As it's been a hobby of mine to see how IS fits better into a grappling (and moving on into MMA) paradigm, I see some breadcrumbs that are already there, even if enough have been eaten or misplaced to obscure the path, it provides something of an "up" or "down" directional vector for hopefully further ascending the budo mountain.

In terms of aikido - at this point in my martial hobby training - aikido is a luxury choice you can make based on doing all of the "other work" that makes such a choice possible.

I hear, you, unfortunately I'm not in that world anymore except peripherally, so I don't know what's going on except that I know Rickson started to teach a series of "special" seminars that had to be attended consecutively, but I don't know if they continued after the first couple or so.... I don't hear much anymore....

06-23-2010, 09:57 AM

Budd writes:
And I wouldn't necessarily go there, either if I hadn't talked to a few folks that, when feeling this kind of weird strength, didn't start talking about how their teachers or teacher's teacher in brazil would be talking about using breath and pressure and intent to effect a lock or submission or change in position. I tend not to put much stock into "my teacher sez" with regard to how something works because there have been whole generations of a system where the advocates parrot jargon and make things up.

However, if there is something to it, at the very least there's an implication that more of this ki/kokyu stuff was wider spread, wasn't well explained and subsequently has been lost in transmission in a number of places.

Who knows? Perhaps it was never that high a priority . . but in my experiences feeling someone with or without this sort of unusual power - regardless of your abilities to apply it - having this kind of development effects your overall quality of life (for the better - and that's a generalization, but I think relevant to the other "on fire" thread in the General section with regard to size, health, habits, etc.).

As it's been a hobby of mine to see how IS fits better into a grappling (and moving on into MMA) paradigm, I see some breadcrumbs that are already there, even if enough have been eaten or misplaced to obscure the path, it provides something of an "up" or "down" directional vector for hopefully further ascending the budo mountain.

In terms of aikido - at this point in my martial hobby training - aikido is a luxury choice you can make based on doing all of the "other work" that makes such a choice possible.

To address your point about how it may or may not have been in the arts, look again at the story in "The fighting arts of Japan"
It is poignant that a) his introduction to the aikijujutsu guy was as a reward . That denotes worth doesn't it? But therein lies the other interesting story b) when the Englishman inquired about it; the teacher answered "Few know about it and few practice it."

Of further interest, when our Englishman asked back at the Kodokan, he was told of only one guy-an undefeated 6th dan who when he used this power -could not be thrown. Imagine the unstated internal dialogue from the englishmen "What the_______?"
So there you were in Japan in the 1920's and it was all but unknown or lost even then.

I think there was, is, and always will be, a confusing factor involved when it comes to fighting with it or without it.
Fighting skills will suffice........period.
Fighting skills mask weaknesses.
IP/aiki (whatever degree you have it) will work on people in marginal environments and impress a hell of lot of people. However, that same level of IP/aiki may totally fall apart against a trained fighter.
Hence the skill of IP/aiki may be judged as less important.
Only in certain areas are you going to run into people who have it to a decent degree and also know how to fight with it. While IP/aiki and fighting are indeed two different subjects; it at least gets the attention of both parties concerned when you ca actually use the stuff in free from combatives.
I know I almost dismissed it when I could blow through people. Who cared, It was only being able to see it work in Judo that it got my attention for good.
So we are where they were a hundred years ago; at a certain level it speaks for itself, it either speaks horribly, and cannot defend its worth, it is laughably inept, it is fairly decent, or it can be truly profound. Most will never feel it, of those who do, most of them will never really train to get it. And of those who become really good at it.....the cycle just repeats itself. Who has it, who can fight it, how do you know? On to who will really train it...yaada yaada yaada
Bill tells me that this traininng has all but absorbed him. Yet he wonders who among those he is involved with will ever really pursue it and get anywhere with it. Was it ever any different?
Dan

06-23-2010, 10:58 AM

Bill tells me that this traininng has all but absorbed him.

Yes. To the detriment of my two other organized martial arts: aikido and kali. I completely walked away from both. But, I am beginning to see that it is only temporary and that at some point, I must return. See my reply below ...

Yet he wonders who among those he is involved with will ever really pursue it and get anywhere with it.

Pursuing it is different than getting somewhere with it. As noted by a few high level martial artists in various arts, training with those who don't have aiki doesn't really get one very far. Oh, enough to impress those without. But it's not really enough to stand out among high level jujutsu people either, let alone good fighters.

How do you not only pursue aiki, but actually get quite good at it? Takeda: sumo training (competition), kenjutsu (competition), jujutsu (people testing skills), and fighting.
Ueshiba: Had people test him continuously from all ranges of arts and fighting.

Aikido great Tomiki: Judo (competition) and people testing him.
Aikido great Shioda: fighting and people testing him.

Today, with certain people: Judo (competition), MMA (competition), people testing them, and fighting.

It really isn't that hard to view back through history and come to a conclusion that to get great like Takeda and Ueshiba you have to:

1. Train aiki compulsively (solo and paired)

2. You have to use it in competition (not necessarily MMA but high level randori in aikido would work as would judo training).

3. You have to train aiki with weapons.

4. You have to fight with it, armed and unarmed.

As you can see, Aikido can be a vehicle to get to some level. I think some solid training in aikido with #1 and #2 will appease most people. Some will add in #3 from various sources and get a bit better. But, to progress beyond that level, one must take that next step and find an environment to fight. One doesn't *need* to do that, though.

That makes me come back to my two organizational martial arts. The vehicles are there in aikido and kali. I can actually train #1 through #4 using both. Albo kali/silat is built such that you have to freestyle "fight" to get better.

Was it ever any different?

There are major differences today. Huge differences.

1. The Internet. Worldwide communication makes a tremendous difference in gaining knowledge. Without that, word of mouth would never inform such a large number of people about aiki.

2. Training methodologies. American training methodologies are better (for the most part) than Japanese ones. (Generalization) And that has made a difference in how people are being trained -- for the better. Some genius devised a systematic approach through hard work and many students. That approach creates aiki from martially-trained people and nonmartially-trained people.

3. Aiki vs aiki. Historically, this has very rarely happened. And it should be a subset of #4 above. This is the area where I think one can push the limits even higher for skill level. And this is where Ueshiba's aikido can truly shine. It is built for an aiki to aiki encounter in freestyle environments with the option of two outcomes: in, down, disabled or pass-through, appropriately matched.

thisisnotreal

06-23-2010, 11:13 AM

wow. really great discussion.with gratitude; thanks.Josh

06-23-2010, 12:34 PM

Hello Mark
I guess I can agree with most of that-except for aikido being a good vehicle for this. I think aikido is a partial vehicle for this, so is Daito ryu.
Discussions I am having right now almost on a daily basis are with aikido teachers go more or less the same;
On the one hand they are on fire for what this is doing and can potentially do, but even with their skills only just beginning to grow they have to dial back just to do "aikido" with people because it is blowing everyone over and they themselves just stand there and no one can do anything to them. At least one DR person said it was weird going to the dojo, sort of anti-climatic. They stare at the teacher and both know there is nothing he can do to throw them. The double edge sword of IP/aiki is that it is a constant within you and very difficult to shut off.

At some point people are going to realize that this training is the fast ticket to senior level in any aiki based art. If they practice it correctly they will be the 400 lb. gorilla in the room with almost no effort involved. It really isnlt a case of being a jerk. Its a case of almost having to totaly shut off for what they are trying to do to work. At a point Aiki age or kokyu ho or any throw is just not ever going to work on you anymore. Most attempts at kuzushi end up with them kuzushiing themselves. Trouble is, where do you fit-in at that point. Again, its why I thought it best to teach teachers; at least they can set the agenda and let it be practiced. A junior would either get frustrated and leave or get tossed out after being tagged as "uncooperative" for just standing there.

Cheers
Dan

Budd

06-23-2010, 01:49 PM

Well, I don't necessarily buy into the "just do conditioning" and then "fight" that seems to be indirectly espoused, either. (EDIT: Though I do agree with the "partial vehicle" part - per my "sweet spot" comment) Where I think aikido (or push hands patterns, or grappling drills, or <insert cooperative paired practice>) should fit into the sweet spot is that the senior level person should be able to progressively guide the junior into the correct "shape, feeling and flow" of an action, regardless of which side they are playing on (uke/nage/tori/shidachi/sparring partner).

So having said that, if you have an instructor that thinks nikkyo should be applied by clamping your hand at an angle to their shoulder while they drop their weight on your wrist . . yeah, if you have trained yourself to direct their weight into a balance hole on contact, then when they try to crank - receive their power (in this case applied to your wrist) into your feet and return it (again, into their balance hole, under them, above them, etc.) . . you might stand their while they crank and look at them, going "Really? I give you this and you just want to twist my wrist??" . .

So, it's going to be harder to find a place where you fit in, more than likely . . but I think the model of paired practice is just fine and has it's place, alongside doing the conditioning work by yourself and then having a format to really test it (hard randori, sparring, etc.). Just up to you to do the work, find people that want to train like you do and go from there.

Where that fits into modern and mainstream aikido, probably going to eventually be up to a dojo by dojo case and implementation . .

06-23-2010, 02:01 PM

[QUOTE=Budd Yuhasz;259844]Well, I don't necessarily buy into the "just do conditioning" and then "fight" that seems to be indirectly espoused, either. .[/QUOTE
I would never overtly say that, or "indirectly espouse" ;) it either. That is a disastrous way to train.
Cheers
Dan

Budd

06-23-2010, 02:07 PM

Ha, I know, Dan - hopefully my edit cleared that up - actually, I was thinking of one of your sayings, "I'm talking to this guy *points to head* to listen and feel what's happening, not this guy *points to body* that wants to fight and compete" . . so yeah, wasn't clear.

chillzATL

06-23-2010, 02:57 PM

At some point people are going to realize that this training is the fast ticket to senior level in any aiki based art. If they practice it correctly they will be the 400 lb. gorilla in the room with almost no effort involved. It really isnlt a case of being a jerk. Its a case of almost having to totaly shut off for what they are trying to do to work. At a point Aiki age or kokyu ho or any throw is just not ever going to work on you anymore. Most attempts at kuzushi end up with them kuzushiing themselves. Trouble is, where do you fit-in at that point. Again, its why I thought it best to teach teachers; at least they can set the agenda and let it be practiced. A junior would either get frustrated and leave or get tossed out after being tagged as "uncooperative" for just standing there.

Cheers
Dan

Dan,

From an aikido perspective, isn't shutting it off or dialing it down part of the package that is aikido? Isn't it likely that this was what Ueshiba was expecting from his training method? If you're just standing there shutting someone down, you pretty much are just being a jerk. Isn't the point to resist just enough that they can feel what they need to feel and in turn you can feel what you need to feel from them to know they're on the right track. As everyone progresses, the level of resistance and the lengths one takes that resistance increases. If you have other (or just one other) like minded people in your dojo, from an aikido standpoint, you've probably got everything you need to have a happy and steady progression towards some real skills all in a completely aikido-centric way.

As for the teaching teachers thing. I'm sure everyone tells you that they're going to start incorporating this stuff, but for the people who are part of large organizations, mainly the aikikai, have you found this to actually be true? How many of these shodans and shihans are actually taking the risk of running afoul of the mothership, which could cost them recognized rank, affiliation (very important for many), etc, for this ? On some level doesn't instructing the lower ranks, the ones who will be the next generation of teachers, offer the best chance of success for reintegration of these training methods? Thanks.

ChrisMoses

06-23-2010, 03:26 PM

If you're just standing there shutting someone down, you pretty much are just being a jerk. Isn't the point to resist just enough that they can feel what they need to feel and in turn you can feel what you need to feel from them to know they're on the right track. As everyone progresses, the level of resistance and the lengths one takes that resistance increases. If you have other (or just one other) like minded people in your dojo, from an aikido standpoint, you've probably got everything you need to have a happy and steady progression towards some real skills all in a completely aikido-centric way.

Obviously not Dan, but my own experience isn't that you're trying to shut people down just to be a dick, but that when you have some frame/IP/whatever and you're used to working with people who also have some frame/IP/whatever and you train with someone who simply doesn't have any and isn't used to working with people who do, they just never actually affect you. It's like they just kind of orbit around you at the point of contact, but there's no impetus to move or be thrown or anything. Conversely, when you go to affect them, there's so little structure behind them, that they simply fold or fall before you feel like you've gotten to do *anything*.

If my partner doesn't have any meaningful frame, I can't tell them how to do a technique against me. All I can do to help them is walk them over to the wall and start developing some frame, thus the solo work.

06-23-2010, 04:33 PM

Please note that I bolded "can" and specified "Ueshiba's aikido". I wasn't really thinking about "modern aikido" at all.

chillzATL

06-24-2010, 07:47 AM

Obviously not Dan, but my own experience isn't that you're trying to shut people down just to be a dick, but that when you have some frame/IP/whatever and you're used to working with people who also have some frame/IP/whatever and you train with someone who simply doesn't have any and isn't used to working with people who do, they just never actually affect you. It's like they just kind of orbit around you at the point of contact, but there's no impetus to move or be thrown or anything. Conversely, when you go to affect them, there's so little structure behind them, that they simply fold or fall before you feel like you've gotten to do *anything*.

If my partner doesn't have any meaningful frame, I can't tell them how to do a technique against me. All I can do to help them is walk them over to the wall and start developing some frame, thus the solo work.

Hi Christian,

I understand what you're saying and wasn't asking from how does it feel perspective, I was just commenting on Dan's post about people not being sure how they fit in when they have these body skills and also how reluctant they are to give them up in the typically dojo setting with people who don't have them.

My point was that dialing back your ability to shut someone down or be moved by them is exactly the problem Ueshiba seemed to address with both the training methodology and a lot of the philosophy behind his art. If your art is a way to develop aiki (aiki.do to steal Dans term) then you're either going to have to segment your training classes based on skill or you're going to have to expect more skilled people to give in and let the un/less-skilled work through these things until they start getting some skills of their own. So I just don't understand how people who are getting these skills feel so out of place UNLESS they're in a situation where they simply can't offer any suggestions or advice and anything the might offer would be so far in left field from the wya things are already explained that if it were overheard by the head instructor there, it would get them in trouble. That environment is foriegn to me, but I know that it does exist. It just seems that "this stuff" fits so well with the general nature of what aikido is supposd to be (as it should) that I think you'd have to be pretty divergent in your ways of explaining things to not be able to subtly pass along some good advice to people that would help their training and possibly get them on the right track (albeit slowly), even if they knew nothing of solo exercises and the like. Granted I'm a noob, but even in my mega-noobness I started seeing the common ground almost immediately.

06-24-2010, 07:47 AM

Well we're not dealing with absolutes here, but Shioda specifically referenced the typical day as an pre-war uchideshi as being something around 14 hours long (5:30-7:30 I think, without having it here in front of me). I recall similar remarks from others in a variety of aikidojournal interviews. They trained a LOT and of course it wasn't all direct training under Ueshiba, but that doesn't matter. Shioda himself did a lot of paying attention then a lot of figuring things out on his own too, which is still training. I don't really care what the mass of those students were doing, just the ones that really got it.

Wanted to post some info regarding the training days. I don't get the impression that they trained a lot, but rather sporadically. So, the 14 hour training days aren't really holding up too well, unless there's other articles that show something different? Also, the training itself wasn't structured or organized neatly as modern training is.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=71

Young Gozo was still a middle school student at the time and, in the beginning, attended only morning sessions having to arise at four am. Later, at his father's urging in mapping out his future, Gozo set his sights on an adventure-filled life participating in the "reconstruction" of Mongolia. As part of his preparations for the strenuous years ahead, he resolved to withdraw from school for a two-year period to devote himself full-time to aikido training. Thereafter, he continued practicing aikido while a student at Takushoku University until his departure for military service in March 1941.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=616
Regarding 20 days of training ...

We got up at five in the morning, swung our bokken (wooden swords) five hundred times, and then practiced how to move our bodies. At that time the teaching method was different from today's. There was nothing like, "Put your feet at such and such an angle" or "Look in the direction of your hands", etc. Ueshiba Sensei showed us how to move and told us to practice our skills and bring our minds into oneness with nature. We just imitated his movements without understanding anything he said. We did that for about an hour. Then we prepared breakfast. First, we made breakfast for Ueshiba Sensei, and served him in turn. After he finished his breakfast we started eating. We took a rest after clearing the table. At ten o'clock we practiced taijutsu (empty handed techniques) for about two hours. After lunch, we rested until three o'clock. From three to five we trained again. Our way of training was, for example, to hold Ueshiba Sensei's hands or shoulders or seize him from behind and he would free himself from our grip. He would merely say to us, "Master it and forget it."

We also have to remember that Ueshiba was very popular during this time.

Morihei Ueshiba was extremely active at this point of his career and taught not only at his Kobukan Dojo in Shinjuku but also the Nakano military institute, the Military Police School, and the Army Toyama School among other locations.

ChrisMoses

06-24-2010, 08:50 AM

Hi Christian,

I understand what you're saying and wasn't asking from how does it feel perspective, I was just commenting on Dan's post about people not being sure how they fit in when they have these body skills and also how reluctant they are to give them up in the typically dojo setting with people who don't have them.

You're still thinking of them as 'techniques'. Like I would apply a certain technique to shut someone down. This is more about changing how your body works. You can't really shut it off any more than you can make yourself taller (a bit of an exaggeration, but not by much). When I first met Ark he talked about creating the martial body (developing the frame) before one could learn any bujutsu. When we started doing Aunkai training, we (my whole dojo) basically took about two years off from doing waza. Most dojos are not going to do that. Now that we've come back to waza, we're having to rework how we do most of our techniques, because the old stuff (aside from the judo kihon) just doesn't work on people in the dojo anymore.

We're still working on how to integrate new people however, and are about to start offering a beginners class of sorts that will focus on tanren, ukemi and basic judo/jujutsu. It's our belief, that without those basics, you just can't do aiki.

I've gone through the exact scenario that Dan outlined however where I was training at two dojos, and the training in one led to severe frustration at the other. I continued at both for a while, but eventually had leave one behind, because I felt that I was dialing it back (as you describe) so much, that I wasn't doing anything in class. That was before doing Aunkai however. Certainly there are some people out there that make it work, and enjoy what they're doing.

chillzATL

06-24-2010, 09:13 AM

You're still thinking of them as 'techniques'. Like I would apply a certain technique to shut someone down. This is more about changing how your body works. You can't really shut it off any more than you can make yourself taller (a bit of an exaggeration, but not by much). When I first met Ark he talked about creating the martial body (developing the frame) before one could learn any bujutsu. When we started doing Aunkai training, we (my whole dojo) basically took about two years off from doing waza. Most dojos are not going to do that. Now that we've come back to waza, we're having to rework how we do most of our techniques, because the old stuff (aside from the judo kihon) just doesn't work on people in the dojo anymore.

no, I'm not thinking of it as techniques at all and it's not about "turning it off".

When you're doing pushout with someone who doesn't have your skill, do you just shut them down (which you could do and no amount of them standing there trying is going to change that) or do you dial it back a little so that they can feel what htey need to feel in order to progress and work through the exercise and you in turn, still feel something? I'm going to assume it's the latter of the two. It's no different in what I'm describing. The techniques of aikido become nothing more than paired exercises with each party building their body during their respective roles in the techniques.

gregstec

06-24-2010, 09:29 AM

Bill tells me that this traininng has all but absorbed him. Yet he wonders who among those he is involved with will ever really pursue it and get anywhere with it. Was it ever any different?
Dan

Since the topic has Bill's name in it, I guess it is OK to talk about him :) At a recent training session on IP/IS that both Bill and I were at, I asked him if he was still going to do the annual Aikido seminar he generally does in my area in the Fall - he said yes, but more and more, his seminars are focusing on internal basics and not Aikido techniques. This shift of focus was very evident from his last seminar I attended that felt more like a Dan seminar than anything else - of course I felt somewhat at home, but there were many aikidoka there that were simply amazed at Bill's power.

Greg

thisisnotreal

06-24-2010, 09:39 AM

and I wonder about this too. Say with ukemi. Are you 'dialing it back' or are you 'taking a dive' and bailing on your own structure? could it be that this is a bad response to be training so much? or can it be good: can you work on kokyu in your body while doing ukemi? is it a worthwhile way to train? Is this a proper understanding of waza practice (50/50 uke/nage)? is this the wrong perspective on 'dialing it back'? does it lead to gain in all parties so progress can be made like is hoped? i guess so. why not? what do you guys think? thanks,Josh

thisisnotreal

06-24-2010, 09:42 AM

Jeremy Hulley

06-24-2010, 10:07 AM

Not Chris..

The situation can be difficult. In my own case if I'm working with a relatively new person or some one who underrstands to a degree they hopefully I can create an itneraction where they and I learn something.

The catch that I've found is with those folks in between. People who may get the idea but are conditioned physically enough to get it.

Often when those folks try to "do" technique to me it just grounds out. At least half the time I.m not doing anything to ground ti out that's just how it moves.

gregstec

06-24-2010, 10:11 AM

Greg, Since you mentioned the thread-names'-sake himself; something I was wondering about the Gentleman.; since he is pursuing this Aiki so focused....I was wondering if he would change any of his point of view of any his books? (Spiritual Foundations, or Words of Power), or if those works stand on their own, unaffected by any progress/changes/power increases. Just sharing/thinking out loud..

I am certainly not qualified nor in any position to provide any definitive input on that. However, IMO, I think those books can stand on their own. Again, IMO, I see the new approach to aiki as not being a belief thing but more of a process thing.

Greg

06-24-2010, 10:21 AM

Hello Jason
I never said I couldn't dial it back did I? In one place I said it was difficult, in another I said it was boring to do so, in another I said (as Chris notes) that it is difficult because it is just ...you being alive.
As far as dialing back; I did it last night while teaching in an aikido dojo, I even took ukemi of a sort; I didn't fall over and there was just no way they could ever actually throw me.

The other aspects that Chris is talking about are innate, you don't really think of how you feel till someone tells you that you feel like a tank. The way I "turn that off" is to flex and stiffen certain parts of my body, so I feel lighter.
Example:
I do weapons. In one practice a fellow told me I was using too much muscle and cutting through him. You can imagine the look on my face. I simply said "No I'm not." he argued and decided to prove a point. He said "Cut" (in a prescribed fixed pattern at a point in kata, so your sword stops in the air) and when our swords met he pulled his sword away expecting me to pitch forward or my sword to go forward as he moved his resisting force out of the way. When he did that my sword just stayed in space. He asked to do it again, same thing. Frustrated he said "I don't know what your doing, but it's too strong, too much muscle." Since he didn't let it go...and kept with the insults, I didn't let it go.

Now I took over and said lets do it again. Now when he pulled away and I just stood there, I said "Okay, now slowly walk back in with your bokken connecting. When he did, his bokken and his body started to collapse under the weight emanating from me, when he backed off...I stood there...when he came back in slowly...collapse under the weight. Confused he just stared at it. Giving a little sarcasm back for the insult I said "It's called moving from da center. You know, Like dem der martial art guys are supposed to be doing!"

Now I can tell you, try as I might, when going full speed in kata with a myriad of weapons it is extremely difficult to dial it back to fit-in. And in truth the only way I can get that "light feel" the fellow was for, is too actually use...too much muscle!
Why would I want to do that to myself and screw up the body I am jealously trying to build?

As I also said, this training is the fast ticket to senior level. I make no bones about it. I honestly do not think there is an Aikido shihan alive who can handle someone with a well developed compliment of these skills learned and burned in freestyle fighting. Aikido and Daito ryu (really all of the Japanese arts) have not allowed themselves to grow into an educated use of these skills because of their shite/uchi model. They are stuck in a loop that hinders further growth. Not only in an external fashion, but in an internal one as well. They will only get just so far with IP/aiki within the give and receive model. It hampers growth.
Once you get past that, from years of changing the changes, or countering the counters, your body softens, is far more educated in a trip response to make fluid continuos changes just from being you and moving naturally...and kata training then feels like kindergarten.

Ip/ aiki is the birth place of martial arts, it's not a way to do them as another guy in the dojo. This leads to the other point you addressed in your questioning of using these skills in someone else's dojo. If you stick out as the obvious one with the deeper level of skills, it may not play well with a lot of teachers.

To answer your excellent question about the teachers I teach and how it might cause problems for them.
I have done a series of national seminars with teachers- I just did one a few weeks ago with Shihan and senior teachers from all over. No one knows who or where and no one ever will. My opening comment to the group was "I don't want to read about this on the internet. Take a long look at me, because if I hear about someone putting this on the net, it will be the last time you see my face-you're out." I could be a very different guy and this could be a very different effort, Jason. I think this approach is best for now. on the one hand, it is an effort of public exposure, drawing attention to the topic, but on the other hand, a private one in expanding, forwarding, and in a VERY serious and meaningful way, supporting, and protecting, the teachers learning it till they are ready to make the choice to go public.
I am sensitive to the needs and also the pottential repercussions of stepping outside. One fellow just returned from his own training camp and told his teacher (real heavy weight) what he was doing. That he was trying to bring aiki back into Aikido, and saw the look in his teachers eye. Guess what? It was well received. The teacher said "Very good!"
So all is not as bad or potentially damaging as it seems. I continue to have hope that more and more are going to get it and spread it.
Cheers
Dan

06-24-2010, 10:36 AM

Since the topic has Bill's name in it, I guess it is OK to talk about him :) At a recent training session on IP/IS that both Bill and I were at, I asked him if he was still going to do the annual Aikido seminar he generally does in my area in the Fall - he said yes, but more and more, his seminars are focusing on internal basics and not Aikido techniques. This shift of focus was very evident from his last seminar I attended that felt more like a Dan seminar than anything else - of course I felt somewhat at home, but there were many aikidoka there that were simply amazed at Bill's power.

Greg
Bill is one of those guys that is quite open about his training- and say what you will, at least he is attempting to share in a way that might help improve the statis quo. He is quite open in saying damn the consequences. His opinions on the subject of how and where aiki...do fits in to the practice of Aikido™ are his own, his to outline-not mine.

I will be doing an aiki seminar at Bills dojo (probably this fall) for students in Aikido. It will be one of the few-maybe the only-"publicly advertized events" I am going to do this year.
Cheers
Dan

Dennis Hooker

06-24-2010, 10:53 AM

I will be doing an aiki seminar at Bills dojo (probably this fall) for students in Aikido. It will be one of the few-maybe the only-"publicly advertized events" I am going to do this year.
Cheers
Dan

More power to ya big guy. This fall I will be more and more matching my Aiki skills against very large fish and very small tackle. Extend Dennis extend!!! Snap there goes another rod and more of my ego.

06-24-2010, 10:56 AM

More power to ya big guy. This fall I will be more and more matching my Aiki skills against very large fish and very small tackle. Extend Dennis extend!!! Snap there goes another rod and more of my ego.

I just got hooked (pun intended) on ocean fishing this year. I LOVE it! I am hoping to find a way to fit it in to my schedule.
Dan

ChrisMoses

06-24-2010, 10:59 AM

no, I'm not thinking of it as techniques at all and it's not about "turning it off".

When you're doing pushout with someone who doesn't have your skill, do you just shut them down (which you could do and no amount of them standing there trying is going to change that) or do you dial it back a little so that they can feel what htey need to feel in order to progress and work through the exercise and you in turn, still feel something? I'm going to assume it's the latter of the two. It's no different in what I'm describing. The techniques of aikido become nothing more than paired exercises with each party building their body during their respective roles in the techniques.

Very fair question!

Part of what we get into here is training paradigms. When I'm working on pushout with someone who is new, I go back and forth between offering muscular resistance (so they have something they can push against/into) and offering frame resistance so their eyes can bug out and they go, "What the.." :eek: Pushout is a very limited environment however and it assumes a certain training paradigm.

In a regular Aikido class, I just tank. I go with whatever the instructor showed, and I go wherever my partner points me, and I make a big splat. I don't do many Aikido classes, it sucks for me, I don't get anything out of them and all my partner gets is reinforcement of bad habits. What good does that do anyone? It's emotionally draining, and very boring. It's also not aiki, nothing to do with aiki. It might be aiKi (as I've laid it out based on the modern interpretation based on Kisshomaru Ueshiba's "The Spirit of Aikido") but I have absolutely no interest in that.

Aiki, is REALLY hard! I don't think you can even do aiki (as I use the term) without the old 'baseline skillset'. So what to do with new people? That's kind of what we're working on now and we're kind of blessed in that we (meaning Icho-ryu/TNBBC) don't call our selves Aikido, but prefer aikibudo (or just jujutsu). Anyone watching class can say, "That's not Aikido!" and we would say, "We told you that." So beginners work on tanren, ukemi and judo throws. Those three areas work to reinforce each other and build someone who is ready to start learning aiki. I should point out that I don't consider myself to be a master of any of this stuff, most of what I do falls far short of what I would consider true aiki but I also really feel that I'm sneaking up on it. I'm kind of like lone blind man walking around feeling an elephant and describing what the elephant really is. The longer I circle, and the more I touch, the better my mental image is going to be.

06-24-2010, 11:33 AM

Clarification
I didn't mean that individual people couldn't talk about their training -like Greg just did- but rather they not mention where or who else was there training. That way I leave it up to teachers to do what they will as individuals.
Dan

ChrisMoses

06-24-2010, 11:45 AM

chillzATL

06-24-2010, 12:29 PM

Hello Jason
I never said I couldn't dial it back did I? In one place I said it was difficult, in another I said it was boring to do so, in another I said (as Chris notes) that it is difficult because it is just ...you being alive.
As far as dialing back; I did it last night while teaching in an aikido dojo, I even took ukemi of a sort; I didn't fall over and there was just no way they could ever actually throw me.

The other aspects that Chris is talking about are innate, you don't really think of how you feel till someone tells you that you feel like a tank. The way I "turn that off" is to flex and stiffen certain parts of my body, so I feel lighter.

No you definitely never said that and I would have been foolish to think you could not. I understand what both you and Chris are talking about in regards to it just being part of you. I'm not there yet, but I can see the progression. The connections come a lot faster than they did just a few months ago. Some of the guys here don't seem to have to think about it or feel for it at all, it's just there. I look forward to that too. I'm just thinking out loud in regards to aikido and reintegrating this stuff back into it. If one wanted to do that and keep things familiar, I think the methodology that Ueshiba was shooting for would work, accepting that all the needed factors were in place and that methodology requires one to dial it back to the level of the people you're working with. With more skilled people there are, as you know, a multitude of directions one could go from there.

Now I can tell you, try as I might, when going full speed in kata with a myriad of weapons it is extremely difficult to dial it back to fit-in. And in truth the only way I can get that "light feel" the fellow was for, is too actually use...too much muscle!
Why would I want to do that to myself and screw up the body I am jealously trying to build?

I can understand this, but again I was just being aikido-y in my reply, fitting it into that paradigm which requires that give and take. If every aikido dojo only had a certain type of person in it, this probably wouldn't be needed, but you gotta go with what you've got so I'm just thinking along those lines. I hope my questions don't come off sounding like statements more than just questions. I dont know enough for that. I'm just not afraid to ask questions and throw ideas out there. I enjoy the discusion.

To answer your excellent question about the teachers I teach and how it might cause problems for them.
I have done a series of national seminars with teachers- I just did one a few weeks ago with Shihan and senior teachers from all over. No one knows who or where and no one ever will. My opening comment to the group was "I don't want to read about this on the internet. Take a long look at me, because if I hear about someone putting this on the net, it will be the last time you see my face-you're out." I could be a very different guy and this could be a very different effort, Jason. I think this approach is best for now. on the one hand, it is an effort of public exposure, drawing attention to the topic, but on the other hand, a private one in expanding, forwarding, and in a VERY serious and meaningful way, supporting, and protecting, the teachers learning it till they are ready to make the choice to go public.
I am sensitive to the needs and also the pottential repercussions of stepping outside. One fellow just returned from his own training camp and told his teacher (real heavy weight) what he was doing. That he was trying to bring aiki back into Aikido, and saw the look in his teachers eye. Guess what? It was well received. The teacher said "Very good!"
So all is not as bad or potentially damaging as it seems. I continue to have hope that more and more are going to get it and spread it.

I never quite thought of it from that angle before Dan, but it makes perfect sense. I don't fault you or anyone for wanting to protect what you worked hard to get and continue to work had to pass on and that definitely sounds like a safer way to go about it.

It's good to hear that the powers that be are more open minded than I would have given them credit for being. I'm going to be in the same situation as the fellow you mentioned above next week and I expect a similar reaction. It all fits too well, too logically, for it to be stubbornly ignored, but the bigger something gets, the slower it moves and the more resistant it is to change. I have similar hopes as well.

If not, maybe Anderson Silva will kotegaeshi Sonnen and save us the effort! :)

chillzATL

06-24-2010, 12:49 PM

Very fair question!

Part of what we get into here is training paradigms. When I'm working on pushout with someone who is new, I go back and forth between offering muscular resistance (so they have something they can push against/into) and offering frame resistance so their eyes can bug out and they go, "What the.." :eek: Pushout is a very limited environment however and it assumes a certain training paradigm.

In a regular Aikido class, I just tank. I go with whatever the instructor showed, and I go wherever my partner points me, and I make a big splat. I don't do many Aikido classes, it sucks for me, I don't get anything out of them and all my partner gets is reinforcement of bad habits. What good does that do anyone? It's emotionally draining, and very boring. It's also not aiki, nothing to do with aiki. It might be aiKi (as I've laid it out based on the modern interpretation based on Kisshomaru Ueshiba's "The Spirit of Aikido") but I have absolutely no interest in that.

Aiki, is REALLY hard! I don't think you can even do aiki (as I use the term) without the old 'baseline skillset'. So what to do with new people? That's kind of what we're working on now and we're kind of blessed in that we (meaning Icho-ryu/TNBBC) don't call our selves Aikido, but prefer aikibudo (or just jujutsu). Anyone watching class can say, "That's not Aikido!" and we would say, "We told you that." So beginners work on tanren, ukemi and judo throws. Those three areas work to reinforce each other and build someone who is ready to start learning aiki. I should point out that I don't consider myself to be a master of any of this stuff, most of what I do falls far short of what I would consider true aiki but I also really feel that I'm sneaking up on it. I'm kind of like lone blind man walking around feeling an elephant and describing what the elephant really is. The longer I circle, and the more I touch, the better my mental image is going to be.

re: pushout: That's how it has been for me, I guess I just never saw it as tensing up as being the method of dialing it back, because I'm the guy going "what the !!?!?", but it makes sense.

As for the aikido, maybe it's different for me becuase there are so many similarities between what I've done there and things I'm learning on the outside. Now don't take that to mean "we were already doing this", but there's just so much conceptual overlap that often times it's not hard to take what little I know and make a suggestion here or there and feel it make a difference in what someone is doing. What will that amount to in the long run? I don't know, but I'm not really worried about it. I don't expect everyone to care or be interested on the same level that I am. The more casual people will benefit from that and the more serious people become the ones that help take it to the next level. I enjoy both sides of it.

06-24-2010, 01:44 PM

No you definitely never said that and I would have been foolish to think you could not. I understand what both you and Chris are talking about in regards to it just being part of you. I'm not there yet, but I can see the progression. The connections come a lot faster than they did just a few months ago. Some of the guys here don't seem to have to think about it or feel for it at all, it's just there. I look forward to that too.
Depending on what you are training (no it's -not- all the same) Moving and fighting with IP/aiki can be more...or less...automatic in nature. There are methods that completely change the way the outside moves from within in certain patterns of movement. These patterns become natural. It is this combination of the inside moving the outside that the masters talked about. This is the heart of what I refer to about freestyle effecting kata. not only is the force-of say a grab- nuetralized complelety, certain secondary actions from your natural movemnt can, make the uke respond, sometimes in dramatac ways. On another level there is a pronounced tendency to stick and control at any point of contact. Were your body to move in certain ways virtually all of these points of contact can act as capture and motivational points on their centers and can lead to any manner of throws, and or entry points to do some seriusly damaging and repetative hits, where the body still maintains contact to once again control and then again to set up a series of hits. Other methods of movement really cannot accomplish that they deal with power differently.

This ties in wiith your comments here:
I'm just thinking out loud in regards to aikido and reintegrating this stuff back into it. If one wanted to do that and keep things familiar, I think the methodology that Ueshiba was shooting for would work, accepting that all the needed factors were in place and that methodology requires one to dial it back to the level of the people you're working with. With more skilled people there are, as you know, a multitude of directions one could go from there.
Not all of the methods for IP/aiki will tie in to Japanese arts and weapons in the same way. Some of the teachers out there training with different sources are forming their own opinions based on observation, explanation and feel.

I hope my questions don't come off sounding like statements more than just questions. I dont know enough for that. I'm just not afraid to ask questions and throw ideas out there. I enjoy the discusion.
Hmm....note my compliments on them and you see how I feel.;)

Dan

06-24-2010, 02:00 PM

Jason writes:
I never quite thought of it from that angle before Dan, but it makes perfect sense. I don't fault you or anyone for wanting to protect what you worked hard to get and continue to work had to pass on and that definitely sounds like a safer way to go about it.
Well, I am trying to be a gentleman about it.
Some of these guys have paid their dues and then some.
I am trying to offer them an environment where they can play. As one guy says "It's like Graduate school for aikido teachers".,.another says "I feel like I don't have to represent and I can just play with the boys again." Some people like Ikeda and can put on a white belt and go play with systema or Ushiro, others don't have that freedom. So I am trying to make a place to let their hair down and learn and play. There are no techniques to learn and everyone enters in to the work as equals-hell I don't even allow budo T-shirts.

It's good to hear that the powers that be are more open minded than I would have given them credit for being. I'm going to be in the same situation as the fellow you mentioned above next week and I expect a similar reaction. It all fits too well, too logically, for it to be stubbornly ignored, but the bigger something gets, the slower it moves and the more resistant it is to change. I have similar hopes as well.
As I said I have hope, but I am not niave about some of the ego driven agendas that also exist.

If not, maybe Anderson Silva will kotegaeshi Sonnen and save us the effort! :)
I have nothing positive to say about that. As soon as I saw segal doing a pressure point cross-face as some sort of MMA "finishing move" I threw up, the rest of it is about at the same level. . .
Like Bruce Lee and Ali....it will speak for itself.:rolleyes: .
Dan

Lee Salzman

06-24-2010, 02:21 PM

Depending on what you are training (no it's -not- all the same) Moving and fighting with IP/aiki can be more...or less...automatic in nature. There are methods that completely change the way the outside moves from within in certain patterns of movement. These patterns become natural. It is this combination of the inside moving the outside that the masters talked about. This is the heart of what I refer to about freestyle effecting kata. not only is the force-of say a grab- nuetralized complelety, certain secondary actions from your natural movemnt can, make the uke respond, sometimes in dramatac ways. On another level there is a pronounced tendency to stick and control at any point of contact. Were your body to move in certain ways virtually all of these points of contact can act as capture and motivational points on their centers and can lead to any manner of throws, and or entry points to do some seriusly damaging and repetative hits, where the body still maintains contact to once again control and then again to set up a series of hits. Other methods of movement really cannot accomplish that they deal with power differently.

This ties in wiith your comments here:

Not all of the methods for IP/aiki will tie in to Japanese arts and weapons in the same way. Some of the teachers out there training with different sources are forming their own opinions based on observation, explanation and feel.

Hmm....note my compliments on them and you see how I feel.;)

Dan

Could you cite some example(s) of other methods of IP/aiki that you feel do not accomplish these ends, and what exactly the main failing point is with them that makes it so? I'm not asking for an essay, but I'm just curious as to what you see as the main stumbling blocks there that would lead people astray.

06-24-2010, 02:27 PM

Lee
How is it going?
No, I don't want to get into that firestorm. I don't see them as "wrong" anyway just not as efficient for my goals in fluid freestyle. They are too limited in what they can do, most probably for the same reasons I site in aikido and Daito ryu as methods. They just never went all the way with it or as far as they could have. So they have some rather pronounced failings here and there, they telegraph in their own way and otherwise lack things that more experienced fighters would pick up on an exploit.
I am just one voice, in the greater sceme of things, all but meaningless really; people will have to make their own assessments.
Hope to see ya again
Dan

Lee Salzman

06-24-2010, 03:03 PM

Lee
How is it going?

Had a training "accident" that came close to destroying my elbow almost a year ago, and even now I'm not sure if there is some screwy nerve impingement or ligament damage that I've got remaining. I got the opportunity to learn firsthand that a person does not need aiki, or any great level of skill in BJJ for that matter, to badly injure someone with an armbar. I never knew snapping muscles sounded like that. :) That seems to have effected a bit of change in my perspective on what I'm trying to get out of training.

No, I don't want to get into that firestorm. I don't see them as "wrong" anyway just not as efficient for my goals in fluid freestyle. They are too limited in what they can do, most probably for the same reasons I site in aikido and Daito ryu as methods. They just never went all the way with it or as far as they could have. So they have some rather pronounced failings here and there, they telegraph in their own way and otherwise lack things that more experienced fighters would pick up on an exploit.
I am just one voice, in the greater sceme of things, all but meaningless really; people will have to make their own assessments.
Hope to see ya again
Dan

I don't want to start that firestorm either, by no means. No need to kill this thread so soon. :D I was just hoping for elucidation on differences that you might have observed on your path.

So if I am interpreting you right, you are saying they are generally too limited in what contexts they try to apply their skills, and not necessarily in the development of body skills themselves?

jonreading

06-28-2010, 11:05 AM

Although I am digressing away from the flow of the thread, I cannot help but read underneath the posts a current that we need our movers and shakers to get their heads together and figure out how better to learn and train.

I have attended too many seminars where failed technique is met with, "you're doing it wrong," or "you're energy is bad," or "stop fighting me..." I am [rarely] pleasantly surpised with "WTF? how did you do that?" or "I need to see how I cannot accomodate that variation..." Similar to an earlier post, I think there is something to be said for the spirit of aikido when failure is met with "it's you, not me."

Where is our fighting spirit that drives us to spar with the MMA fighter? or spar with the karate person? or learn how to defend against other arts? Where is our ego when we choose to omit training that exceeds our skills for the vanity of not being able to teach it?

Budd

06-28-2010, 11:45 AM

Well, there needs to be a complicity in the sense that all are working towards mutual improvement AND a genuine method for testibility that has everything to do with "Does it work??" from as objective a measure as possible, rather than "Am I letting this work right now?".

I think the disconnect in many modern forms of practice is that these lines blur into one sort of thing that doesn't really accomplish the goals of either of the above two facets of the overall training paradigm. So then "work for harmony" becomes, "do what the senior/sensei says and don't question it or you're in trouble!".

Add the idea of training Ki/Kokyu from an Internal Strength perspective - and it's an additional rub because there are plenty that refuse to accept that their 30+ years time in doesn't automatically translate into this skillset that uses the same or similar terminology at points. Factor in that people feel plenty comfortable speaking to how aikido would "work" in an MMA perspective without having actually spent any time credibly trying it out -- why would you expect this thing to be any different, especially when it (IT/IS) by all rights should be the foundation of AIKI-do practice.

The smart ones are working like hell to rewire, retrain and catch up if they genuinely want the skills (in MMA, IS, Shodo, or whatever). The less than benevolent ones are keeping their methods and lineage secret so they can be THE SENSEI, while the ones that really sacrifice everything for their arts and their students are dragging everyone along on their journey, so that their students have the possibility to stand on their shoulders and someday reach higher up the mountain.

And everything in-between. ;) As keeps getting mentioned, these sure are interesting times. And I'm just limited to hearing the scuttlebutt here and their about what different mainstream peeps are up to. I'm sure it's much more interesting closer to the centers.

Jon, you asked where's the ego? I think ego (and at times various levels of access to knowledge, willful/unwillful ignorance AND we can't forget the need to pay the rent) has it's share of blame for watering down of martial practices all over. I can see where it gets to a point where the people that really want to bang and train recuse themselves from trying to wade through the differences of budo as genuine training for life versus a collection of role-players chasing delusions of relevance.

I've heard different conceptions mentioning that the growth of MMA owes its popularity to people wanting to do what they see on TV. I know just as many ex-athletes, law enforcement and military types, when they finally want to walk into a dojo, have someone speaking to them on conditioning, warrior mindset and combative intent -- that clearly has no credibility on any of these things. So, it's a mixed bag all over, no doubt.

An honestly, I don't think this is much of a digression away from the flow or original topic of the thread.

Although I am digressing away from the flow of the thread, I cannot help but read underneath the posts a current that we need our movers and shakers to get their heads together and figure out how better to learn and train.

I have attended too many seminars where failed technique is met with, "you're doing it wrong," or "you're energy is bad," or "stop fighting me..." I am [rarely] pleasantly surpised with "WTF? how did you do that?" or "I need to see how I cannot accomodate that variation..." Similar to an earlier post, I think there is something to be said for the spirit of aikido when failure is met with "it's you, not me."

Where is our fighting spirit that drives us to spar with the MMA fighter? or spar with the karate person? or learn how to defend against other arts? Where is our ego when we choose to omit training that exceeds our skills for the vanity of not being able to teach it?

Dennis Hooker

06-30-2010, 06:08 AM

Well, I am trying to be a gentleman about it.
Some of these guys have paid their dues and then some.
I am trying to offer them an environment where they can play. As one guy says "It's like Graduate school for aikido teachers".,.another says "I feel like I don't have to represent and I can just play with the boys again." Some people like Ikeda and can put on a white belt and go play with systema or Ushiro, others don't have that freedom. So I am trying to make a place to let their hair down and learn and play. There are no techniques to learn and everyone enters in to the work as equals-hell I don't even allow budo T-shirts.
As I said I have hope, but I am not niave about some of the ego driven agendas that also exist.

I have nothing positive to say about that. As soon as I saw segal doing a pressure point cross-face as some sort of MMA "finishing move" I threw up, the rest of it is about at the same level. . .
Like Bruce Lee and Ali....it will speak for itself.:rolleyes: .
Dan

Dan, I agree. Anyone that thinks there is nothing to learn from others is no one I want to be around. At 65 and all broken up and 45 years of Aikido I look forward to the day we can be on the mat together I am sure the work you have done will help me and maybe my experiences will offer something back. We should never stop learning or reaching out. I have known Bill for a long time and his experiences discovering Aikido, and other endeavors, have been wholehearted and diligent to say the least. I have a few well trained and high ranking karate and judo guys at the dojo and they keep me honest because they will not bustardise (sp?) their training just to make me look good. I wish I could train like the old days but the 5th lumbar vertebra is detached on both sides and the 4 & 5th are broken on both sides plus all the other crap. I'm looking for ways to do old things in new ways now days. I look to guys like Bill you and others who have spent a good deal of their training on ceratin aspects of the arts