PDA

View Full Version : Yonkyo is unbearable


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Daniel Coutts-Smith
06-05-2010, 10:37 PM
Hey fellow Aikidoka,

Every time i take Ukemi for Yonkyo the pain is unbearable... most techniques you can relax and feel the pain and tap before its too much, but Yonkyo the pain is so sudden and sharp that i clench up and can barely tap.

I have heard that it should be used almost as an atemi, i can see how it would be effective as such.

Anyway my questions are:
Do you think i will begin to build up a tolerance to it?
Was it this bad for everyone when they first started to take ukemi for it, or am i just very susceptible?

Arigato Goziamasu in advance,
Daniel.

Abasan
06-06-2010, 01:56 AM
Yes. You will build up tolerance for it over time. (i'm assuming you're talking about the pressure point, not your shoulder).
And it probably wasn't as bad for everyone as it is for you.

Do more ki extension exercises and you will feel less pain over time.

Shadowfax
06-06-2010, 06:56 AM
my first yonkyo experience was kinda interesting. Only really felt the pain on the left side. But I had thumb prints on my arm for two weeks after. Sensei said some people don't feel it at all and some are feel it more than others. She also said this is something we don't practice much because it can damage the nerves over time.

I don't know if you really want to build tolerance, I'd think that that might indicate nerve damage. Last time we did yonkyo both sides were working good. Chiropractor must have freed something up that was pinching off the nerves.

Love when sensei says lets do yonkyo... then says
"Ikkyo is uncomfortable, nikkyo hurts, sankyo is very painful and yonkyo is just really fun!" :D

Abasan
06-06-2010, 07:22 AM
On a different note, you should try to do all techniques without the pain influencing uke. Instead to move him by controlling his center or by good synchronisation.

But hey, a little pain once in awhile might be a good thing and we do pressure points occasionally for the fun of it. However, practitioners of kyujutsu do not advocate symmetrical practice when doing it. ie only do one side.

Jonathan
06-06-2010, 10:36 PM
If you're receiving yonkyo on your right arm, just before the yonkyo pressure is applied fully open the hand and fingers of your right hand as much as possible (of course, this works on the left side, too). Depending upon where yonkyo is applied on your wrist/forearm this can help lessen the pain some. If you do this while extending ki well, it will lessen the pain quite a bit.

A tolerance for yonkyo does develop. My shihan was asked once during a seminar he was giving how to deal with the pain of yonkyo. He said, "Two hundred yonkyo every day." We all laughed - except our shihan. It turned out he was serious.

As one of my students like to regularly observe about Aikido training: "This ain't a knitting class." Some pain now and then in training is unavoidable.

ruthmc
06-07-2010, 09:41 AM
Hi Daniel,

Do you think i will begin to build up a tolerance to it?
Yes you will. As with building up tolerance to nikyo, it's just a case of a) Practise and b) Knowing when to fall - if it's really sore then dive to the mat and tap asap :)

Was it this bad for everyone when they first started to take ukemi for it, or am i just very susceptible?
People vary in their susceptibility to this technique, depending upon their nerve development and position. Some folk don't have the nerve in an acessible place so you can't apply yonkyo to them using pain, you have to break their balance and sword cut the arm instead (which you should always do anyway, pain or not, as Abasan says). Some people have the nerve in a place where they will be seeing stars as soon as it's barely touched.

The best thing to do is to fall and tap early, as you don't want to risk damage to a prominent nerve. Later on you can learn to push the pain away back into tori, but this takes a certain degree of sheer bloody-mindedness and a lot of practise :D

Good luck,

Ruth

Phil Van Treese
06-07-2010, 02:35 PM
When someone puts a yonkyo on you, do you know how to reverse him???? If not, you should learn how.

Lilyfae
07-03-2010, 12:44 AM
I have recently been introduced to yonkyo, and was fairly shocked the first time. It was as you said, unbearable. I think in time I will build a tolerance to it, and will get past the "oh my gosh I am going to die" feeling I have now. I used to feel the same way about nikyo, and have toughened up a bit thankfully. All in good time. It will always hurt though :)

ninjaqutie
07-04-2010, 11:19 PM
Like everyone has already said, some people are more sensitive to it then others. It also depends on whether someone gradually applies pressure of if their a wham bam application type of person. You will more then likely get used to it the more it is applied to you. Sometimes it hurts me more then others. Sometimes I lower myself to the mat and others, I find myself down on the mat before I give it much thought. I have not however experienced pain to the point that I couldn't tap.

Barbara Knapp
07-05-2010, 03:48 PM
If yonkyo hurts that much, ask your partner to be gentler with you.

B

DH
07-05-2010, 08:57 PM
Here is a rather course but effective means to lessen their ability to attack.
When they put yonkyo on you; do an old time "wrestlers stretch." This is accomplished by imagining you are stretching through your own fingers straight out. It can be enhanced by dropping your elbow into their attacking elbow...sort of like laying your elbow onto theirs. Practice it until you can bring more of your center out from your body and more of your weight into their attacking arm. This is NOT what I do...but with practice those simple steps should help anyone with the type of pressures most will face.
There are far more sophisticated steps you can take- as well as some automatic things you can do- that they will be stumped to try and figure out, but you would need hands on to be walked through the process. Moreover, if you were to undertake IP/aiki training, the yonkyo of the most powerful shihan you have ever met would be all but meaningless and you would capture them for their effort.
These sorts of standing joint locks don't work on properly trained aiki adepts. Your body would just kill them at their point of inception. They also can't be used to capture your center either if you trained aiki,you would just stand there looking at them. You could stand there and offer them just "a little" in order to allow them to "get in a little practice" on you before you could take back control.
In any event I find it rather startling that your fellow aikido people haven't offered to show you how to negate their own attacks. What are they doing enjoying your distress? I show everyone how to do.....and then how to undo...everything, from the get go.
Cheers
Dan

Mert Gambito
07-08-2010, 12:08 AM
I can very much relate to people's experiences with this technique.

The shiatsu in Hakkoryu is very helpful for providing relief as well.

DH
07-08-2010, 10:20 AM
My point was that it is totally unnecessary. People should be taught how to do it and how to undo it from the onset so that the ability to apply it on a junior is negligible and largely controlled by the junior who can just stand there looking at a senior. Then co-operation in practice takes on real meaning.
This stuff -how to negate and control- is not advanced, it is basic level aiki. Were students to be actually taught how to creat aiki in aikido, then they can start to actively take part in an early phase of their training and everyone can grow in aiiki together. Anything other than that is just seniors showing off.

The idea is not to condition them to pain to toughen them, but rather to give them the tools to stop you...dead in your own tracks for God sake...gees.
So Yonkyo is no longer unbearable it becomes totally managable. Shiatsu is not needed-education is needed. Maybe I should do a "students only" seminar focusing on how to help correct some of this taking advantage behavior.;)
Cheers
Dan

DH
07-08-2010, 11:04 AM
Someone just wrote and asked me if anyone can learn this from the beginning. Yes.
The amount of time it takes to teach anyone yonkyo can be matched by the amount of time its takes to show how to undo it and also ways to train to create ad aiki body that will support it even more. It is a way to care FOR each other in a process. If it is unusual, not taught or shown...ask.
Overal it's better for the art to have a vested interest in making people with aiki power who can cancel out and deal with most anyone, isn't it? As I said, only then does cooperation take on real meaning.
Dan

MM
07-08-2010, 11:13 AM
There's an interview with one of the pre-war students (I think) on Aikido Journal and in it there is a section about how yonkyo was a training exercise for the body. It would be interesting to see if the other wrist "techniques" were also body training exercises.

Rob Watson
07-08-2010, 11:25 AM
Maybe I should do a "students only" seminar focusing on how to help correct some of this taking advantage behavior.;)
Cheers
Dan

YES! Please.

chillzATL
07-08-2010, 01:42 PM
YES! Please.

Seconded!

Mert Gambito
07-08-2010, 05:41 PM
Dan --- Your points about education being the key to making practicing this technique (and others) more meaningful, and raising the bar on "cooperative" practice in general, are well taken -- in fact accepted (taking the aiki component most of us don't understand out of the equation for a moment, too many "good uke" choose not to provide feedback to their tori in a way that helps the tori develop much more than good rote memorization -- and people wonder why the skills fall apart when randori starts).

My comment wasn't a direct response to your preceding post, but rather directed at the vast majority of us who don't at this time train in the manner you describe (though some of us work on counters to yonkyo, etc. outside of cooperative waza practice). Since most people go through training and life in general accumulating general body wear and tear -- on purpose and by accident -- there remains a modest market for shiatsu, AIS and other healing modalities. I think at some point in time everyone can use a good tune-up through one or more of these kinds of treatments (even those who are yonkyo-proof via genetics or aiki :) ).

Students only. I hope we all remain supple-minded a la the story of Hiroshi Ikeda you are fond of mentioning.

Mert Gambito
07-08-2010, 05:43 PM
There's an interview with one of the pre-war students (I think) on Aikido Journal and in it there is a section about how yonkyo was a training exercise for the body. It would be interesting to see if the other wrist "techniques" were also body training exercises.
That is definitely an interesting thought. Hakkoryu looks at them as "body training" exercises, but not necessarily from an internal skills-development perspective.

Adam Huss
07-09-2010, 01:05 PM
I never do yonkyo with kyusho application...I just go for the physiological control point rather than pain compliance.

DH
07-11-2010, 11:42 AM
I was just at a seminar with a about 45 aikido-ka. I took a group of them and did yet another experiment.
As I said you can pretty much teach them to stop a yonkyo ...on the spot. No one was able to put a yonkyo on anyone after about 5 minutes of proper instruction.This included a very large san dan doing Yonkyo on a small newbie and having it canceled out while the newbie stood there smiling canceling out both the pain the movement motivation of the lock.
Then we went on to very simple neutralizing of other aikido joint locks. They were stopping each other ...with aiki... with no large, perceptible, movement, and no counter techniques. all while looking rather stunned, laughing out loud and having fun.
So, as I was saying, yonkyo..is out the window for being able to cause anyone in Aikido any pain at all. Now you can add just about every other lock you know.
Watching a teacher teach students to cancel his own techniques is the other part of the teaching model I happen to love. It just seems intelligent and respectful and allows everyone to grow together and have less chance of injuries.
Dan

Janet Rosen
07-11-2010, 12:58 PM
Sounds like a big-fun training day!

JO
07-11-2010, 04:18 PM
I was just at a seminar with a about 45 aikido-ka. I took a group of them and did yet another experiment.
As I said you can pretty much teach them to stop a yonkyo ...on the spot. No one was able to put a yonkyo on anyone after about 5 minutes of proper instruction.This included a very large san dan doing Yonkyo on a small newbie and having it canceled out while the newbie stood there smiling canceling out both the pain the movement motivation of the lock.
Then we went on to very simple neutralizing of other aikido joint locks. They were stopping each other ...with aiki... with no large, perceptible, movement, and no counter techniques. all while looking rather stunned, laughing out loud and having fun.
So, as I was saying, yonkyo..is out the window for being able to cause anyone in Aikido any pain at all. Now you can add just about every other lock you know.
Watching a teacher teach students to cancel his own techniques is the other part of the teaching model I happen to love. It just seems intelligent and respectful and allows everyone to grow together and have less chance of injuries.
Dan

Sounds like something I'd like to learn. But I have a question, I've often trained with people whose yonkyo not only creates a lot of pain but also, especially if you don't tap out quickly, can do real damage to tissue. Bruises are something I consider a somewhat normal part of training yonkyo for extended periods of time. So my question is, do your neutralizing methods negate such damage. I mean, if enough pressure to break blood vessels is being applied, whatwould stop them from breaking?

donplummer
07-11-2010, 05:36 PM
having rather "XL" wrists from use in other sports, Shot Put, Weight Training, has made it difficult for me to get the full effect of yonkyo, that was until one of my former Sensei decided to let the ENTIRE CLASS try me out for 30 minutes or so at which point he took over and had no problem finding that nerve. We all had a good laugh about it (after I stopped sobbing) and I found a new inspiration for being a better Uke. :D

DH
07-11-2010, 06:04 PM
Sounds like something I'd like to learn. But I have a question, I've often trained with people whose yonkyo not only creates a lot of pain but also, especially if you don't tap out quickly, can do real damage to tissue. Bruises are something I consider a somewhat normal part of training yonkyo for extended periods of time. So my question is, do your neutralizing methods negate such damage. I mean, if enough pressure to break blood vessels is being applied, whatwould stop them from breaking?
It negates damage because they cannot get in to cause it. There is no path for their power.
There are different things that you can learn in a single afternoon that are stupidly simple. Over time more sophisticated conditioning will do far more potent things.
It is all part of having aiki. I frankly do not understand how or why a teacher would not impart these things, and give this knowledge to his own people.
I think I will begin to cover these things in seminars...so that students can just simply just stand there staring at their seniors and teachers. I had no idea this sort of thing was going on. No wonder I got so much laughter and positve feedback when they could do it to each other. Hmm...
Cheers
Dan

DH
07-11-2010, 06:06 PM
having rather "XL" wrists from use in other sports, Shot Put, Weight Training, has made it difficult for me to get the full effect of yonkyo, that was until one of my former Sensei decided to let the ENTIRE CLASS try me out for 30 minutes or so at which point he took over and had no problem finding that nerve. We all had a good laugh about it (after I stopped sobbing) and I found a new inspiration for being a better Uke. :D
What was the inspiration and lesson? What did you learn?
I missed your point.
Dan

Mike Sigman
07-11-2010, 09:58 PM
I think I will begin to cover these things in seminars...so that students can just simply just stand there staring at their seniors and teachers.Other than being involved in an art where many "seniors" simply don't have basic skills, how will that work against people with the same or more basic skills? I guess my problem is that the jin response to incoming forces is sort of limited... that's why Taiji specializes in something else and, from everything I've every heard, read, etc., of Ueshiba's Aikido there is also "no resistance", except for the occasional demo to show the kinds of forces that are at work. The basic forces of 'ki strength' are certainly not what you're supposed to do in response to an incoming attack in Aikido, Taiji, Xingyi, and hundreds of other arts.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

DH
07-11-2010, 11:38 PM
The basic forces of 'ki strength' are certainly not what you're supposed to do in response to an incoming attack in Aikido, Taiji, Xingyi, and hundreds of other arts.
Exactly
Dan

Daniel Coutts-Smith
07-12-2010, 12:09 AM
Thanks for the varied and interesting responses everyone. Im always happy to start a conversation!

Im sure as i learn more and my ukemi for yonkyo improves it will become much easier. For now i will use the pain it creates as a tool from which to learn.

DH
07-12-2010, 12:19 AM
Im sure as i learn more and my ukemi for yonkyo improves it will become much easier. For now i will use the pain it creates as a tool from which to learn.
That is both unfortunate and apparently the status quo.
Dan

donplummer
07-12-2010, 04:09 PM
[QUOTE=Dan Harden;261000]What was the inspiration and lesson? What did you learn?
I missed your point.
Dan[/QUOTE

I suppose what I was getting at was, Perseverence, on both Uke and Nage's part. I needed to have someone work through my resistance so that I could understand the technique and stop using my strength to block. My sensei knew what was going on but wanted everyone to understand that. By letting everyone try it on me and eventually succeed he was teaching us all not to quit on a technique just because it was difficult to master. I was sore for a few days but still benefit from that lesson today.

Buck
07-13-2010, 01:22 AM
To answer the question for the sake of the person asking, I have to say the following could be helpful.

Pain is feedback. It is a signal from a sensor telling us information. If for instance you touch a hot cup of coffee you know it. It motivates us to move away from damaging ourselves, or tells us what we are doing is damaging. Pain controls us. We move from pain and the source of it. In martial arts it tells us what we are doing right and what we are doing wrong. Right might be getting compliance. Wrong or what we think is wrong would be right. Like if we do a waza and the result on our training partner is too much to bear that tells us we are going to get compliance when used on the street. Wrong if your philosophy of no or little pain is practiced in the dojo. It tells us to move away and that can lead to effective escapes. Pain gives us information whether we give it or receive it. We shouldn't discount this valuable learning aid.

I don't think you should develop a tolerance per se. Pain has a purpose, and a good one. Can you then learn to resist Yonkyo and prevent the resulting pain instead? Yes, against most people. That is if you are strong enough to resist it, or it is done poorly it can be resist even done by a strong person to a weaker person. You can resist through muscle tension most of the time done my most average people. Not so much tension that it interferes with your partner's execution of the technique. But enough to protect the joints and wrists from the technique to a degree better than if no tension was used. It essentially stops someone from going too far with the technique that tissue damage results. But the best way is to tell your training partner to go easy.

Going easy doesn't mean your partner can't receive full benefit from practicing Yonkyo without fully applying pain. It doesn't mean to comply and go with it like a wet noodle. It simply means control. Learning control, which pain teaches, is the most valuable learning tool of any Aikido technique. Ideally, I would think, is to apply just the right about of technique to get compliance. A finite attribute and distinction concerning Aikido.

In a nutshell, you can work up to yonkyo being put on fully. But until then gradually work up to taking on more and more application of the technique via muscle tension. Remember pain is a valuable teacher providing feedback and other information. Have you training partners go easy on you work into developing greater muscle tension to prevent your partner from hurting if they go all the way. Have your partner slow down while doing the technique, practicing control, and form among other things.

Hope that helps.

phitruong
07-13-2010, 07:42 AM
In a nutshell, you can work up to yonkyo being put on fully. But until then gradually work up to taking on more and more application of the technique via muscle tension.

Muscle tension as a way to counter? i would have thought the opposite is needed. isn't part of martial art training to control the fight/flight instincts, in which pain may trigger it, and in turn trigger muscle tension which counters our ability to move freely, not to mention stop our ability to make our body coherent, one unit? doesn't pain also forces us to focus on the pain spot; thus gives us tunnel vision where we are no longer able to see other options?

personally, i wouldn't focus on pain compliant approach. i preferred the break balance approach. folks who tried the pain compliant on me will end up with a kick or a knee in the ribs for their trouble. oh wait, this is aikido. we are not suppose to kick or knee. damn! ;)

Buck
07-13-2010, 10:08 AM
Muscle tension as a way to counter? i would have thought the opposite is needed. isn't part of martial art training to control the fight/flight instincts, in which pain may trigger it, and in turn trigger muscle tension which counters our ability to move freely, not to mention stop our ability to make our body coherent, one unit? doesn't pain also forces us to focus on the pain spot; thus gives us tunnel vision where we are no longer able to see other options?

personally, i wouldn't focus on pain compliant approach. i preferred the break balance approach. folks who tried the pain compliant on me will end up with a kick or a knee in the ribs for their trouble. oh wait, this is aikido. we are not suppose to kick or knee. damn! ;)

Allow me to clarify. The original question dealt with the technique being painful and not a counter or "pain compliant approach." Which are other good topics to be discussed. Muscle tension is one way to protect against pain experienced during practicing of the technique. A certain amount of muscle tension in the limb and area of application is to protect against the amount of pain experienced. Thus being a way to control the pain felt from Yonkyo. Muscle tension isn't the only way to ease pain. Another way, of course, is to tap out the second you feel pain.

Experiencing pain in this application can also provide us with information and feedback. Feeling no pain at all while practicing the technique limits or provides no information or feedback during the practice experience. That is simply going through the motions or walking through it squelches a great deal of feedback and information about the technique. Too much pain of course is damaging and defeats the purpose of the learning process. Point being pain isn't a bad thing it is very useful in the right amounts.

DH
07-13-2010, 11:26 AM
This is some of the worst advice I have ever heard. It will virtually assure a continuation of a low level approach to Aikido. What I was suggesting as the cancellation of pain and power at the same time as controlling the person putting force into you.
Imagine....aiki...being used to cancel out jujutsu...what a thought!
Dan

mathewjgano
07-13-2010, 12:18 PM
Allow me to clarify. The original question dealt with the technique being painful and not a counter or "pain compliant approach." Which are other good topics to be discussed. Muscle tension is one way to protect against pain experienced during practicing of the technique. A certain amount of muscle tension in the limb and area of application is to protect against the amount of pain experienced. Thus being a way to control the pain felt from Yonkyo. Muscle tension isn't the only way to ease pain. Another way, of course, is to tap out the second you feel pain.

Experiencing pain in this application can also provide us with information and feedback. Feeling no pain at all while practicing the technique limits or provides no information or feedback during the practice experience. That is simply going through the motions or walking through it squelches a great deal of feedback and information about the technique. Too much pain of course is damaging and defeats the purpose of the learning process. Point being pain isn't a bad thing it is very useful in the right amounts.

Buck, how do you use muscle tension to ease pain? I've always felt that when I added tension I increased the pain. My best method for reducing pain was always to relax and engage my center as much as possible.

As for the OP, my best guess is to really enter with the part of your forearm that aite's palm chakra touches (or would touch, based on some versions I've seen), particularly as the fingers begin to close around you. Even if I'm still being controlled, I could usually take away the sting pretty well in most cases.

Also, as a side-note: what's the difference between katate tori and yonkyo? Is it the emphasis on what part of the palm is driving the suppression? At some point I developed the sense that any time I'm trying "katate tori," I'm trying some form of yonkyo.

Buck
07-13-2010, 12:39 PM
I also want to say that Yonkyo being a jujitsu technique from one of the jujitsu styles O'Sensei learned, it is designed to be disabling. It is suppose to be excruciatingly painful and damaging. Making the opponent unable to fight back and to facilitate the option of kill of the opponent. When I speak of design I am referring to the original combat design outside of the philosophy of Aikido. I hope by give a background to the technique will help understand why it is such a painful technique even within Aikido.

Yonkyo, as a combat technique, if done properly and with experience prevents any counters. It is designed like many other legitimate jujitsu techniques to bring down an enemy quickly preventing any counters. The application is to be done with combat intentions with experienced execution to damage the opponent. When done as initially designed Yonkyo destroys the wrist and elbow joints, and dislocates the shoulder. It is also considered the enemy is taken by surprise not knowing what is coming. The enemy doesn't have a working knowledge of the technique, and that is the first step in stopping a counter. You can't counter what you don't understand effectively.

The next phase is inflicting allot of pain through damaging the wrist joint. Then as you move through the technique there is damage to the elbow joint. Finally, there is the dislocation of the shoulder. All phases of the technique are done with the assumption the enemy is attempting a counter. And damaging the joints resulting in allot of pain denies any thoughts and attempts to counter.

Yonkyo is designed to be devastating to the enemy and painful. Thereby preventing any counters with each stage of the technique placing the body in positions that are physically difficult to counter sucessfully. All within the perimeters of Japanese combat this means the counter to Yonkyo would not be a kick or punch, but rather to stab or cut with a sword.

Yonkyo even within Aikido is painful. It is a very effective technique designed to take control of the opponents body in such away that effective counters are not possible. That is why when it is practiced in the dojo it should be done with care and attention to its mechanics.

I think cooperation-not going all out -is needed to learn the mechanics and proper form to execute the technique properly as intended. As well as consideration for the safety of the training partner. Cooperation is not the same as being overly and unnecessarily compliant.

Yonkyo because of its design and potential for damaging the body if practiced correctly is going so have some degree of pain and discomfort. Honestly, I don't know of any Aikido technique or pin that isn't going to be painless. Therefore, there are ways to minimize pain. For examples, such as using some muscle tension to protect the forces upon the limb. Or not fully applying the technique to where it is too painful and damaging.

Side comment: The dojo is a place of learning and it isn't the street. And yea, by default being in the dojo means practice and repetition it is easy to counter etc. The technique is done in a controlled learning environment. And under these conditions because you know what is coming, and there is no life and death combat threats against anyone, it is easy to take advantage of the learning environment and situation capitalizing on it. It would be like while someone is practicing free throws you run up and steal the ball, dunk it at the other end of the court, then say you scored on them. Practice is to work things out and make improvements.

Budd
07-13-2010, 01:29 PM
Buck, no offense, but it really reads like you're just making things up because you like the sound of them in your head.

Buck
07-13-2010, 01:48 PM
Buck, how do you use muscle tension to ease pain? I've always felt that when I added tension I increased the pain. My best method for reducing pain was always to relax and engage my center as much as possible.

As for the OP, my best guess is to really enter with the part of your forearm that aite's palm chakra touches (or would touch, based on some versions I've seen), particularly as the fingers begin to close around you. Even if I'm still being controlled, I could usually take away the sting pretty well in most cases.

Also, as a side-note: what's the difference between katate tori and yonkyo? Is it the emphasis on what part of the palm is driving the suppression? At some point I developed the sense that any time I'm trying "katate tori," I'm trying some form of yonkyo.

Matt that is true, and I am glad you brought that up. Am to going to address your question to the general form.

Yes, too much muscle resistance via tension works in favor of the Shi. If you use force to counter Yonkyo, resisting against the technique in the hands of an experienced Shi the Uke is basically screwed. Unless they can completely resist the waza. In this case the waza fails and not pain is experience. I believe that is considered within the design of Yonkyo that resistance is expected and is countered through the mechanical design and application of the waza. That resistance would be a natural reaction to resist the movement and forces by attempting to muscle out of the technique, thereby, being the most basic and reactive counter that work against the opponent.

What I am saying muscle tension enough to protect from damage and increased pain caused by Yonkyo. Naturally, if too much tension is felt by the Shi the natural reaction then is to apply the technique vigorously due to the perceived resistance. To avoid that besides understanding and cooperation, is to contract the hand and wrist muscles (providing tension) and not resist with muscle the technique. A very basic example outside the context of the technique is to make a fist. The muscles are tense but not resisting any forces. The slighted tensed muscles protect the joint, to some extent reducing pain instead of experiencing the opposite and feeling greater pain. Also by placing some tension in the limb keeps the joints from being overly stressed and staying properly aligned. But as you said, too much tension will allow for better orientation of the Uke's arm providing an advantage to the Shi preforming the technique.

It can be argue any resistance or tension will aid the Shi in preforming the waza more effectively against the Uke. That is a valid argument which I will not refute. Yet no resistance will also aid the Shi in performing the waza effectively.

When practicing the Yonkyo muscle tension, not resistance, will reduce some of the pain from joint and tissue pain. It will protect the joints and tissues, even though it will aid the Shi in performing the waza. Not applying any muscle tension/contracting the muscles- not using muscle tension and contraction to resist the waza- does also result in pain. But again, the dojo is a place of learning.

Pain is an important signal to the brain that provides us information concerning our bodies. Sometimes if we concentrate, such as on tensing up our muscles the frequency of the signal, how that signal is received, or interrupting that signal means reduction of pain. We also have to consider the effectiveness of no matter what we do is also dictated by the number of pain receptors that vary from person to person. And the other factors that make some people more pain tolerant then others. Basically, some people will always, no matter what they do, will find the pain unbearable. Where others will be able to better tolerate the pain. That either Matt or my suggestion will not work for everyone. My suggestion will work for some and will be ineffective for others who find Matt's suggestion effective. For some nothing will work. But that was my suggestion was to provide some muscle tension a the point of application.

Another suggestion maybe to move ahead of the technique and not behind it. Being ahead of the applied forces rather than behind them thus experiencing all the applied forces. But this again we need to consider the effects it has on the learning process.

Thanks Matt.

phitruong
07-13-2010, 03:29 PM
Yonkyo is designed to be devastating to the enemy and painful. Thereby preventing any counters with each stage of the technique placing the body in positions that are physically difficult to counter sucessfully. All within the perimeters of Japanese combat this means the counter to Yonkyo would not be a kick or punch, but rather to stab or cut with a sword.


huh? if i am armed with a sword, i am pretty sure i wanted to wear them leather arm braces as well to prevent cuts to my wrists and forearms. how you plan to use pain on that? if i can counter with sword cut, i am pretty sure i can kick you to kingdom come; besides, your arms attached to mine, in order to apply yonkyo, so i know exactly where you are, even with my eyes closed.

i'll be the first to admit ignorance in the usage of yonkyo. if someone can tell me why yonkyo at all, i am all ear. :)

Buck
07-13-2010, 07:23 PM
Another suggestion maybe to move ahead of the technique and not behind it. Being ahead of the applied forces rather than behind them thus experiencing all the applied forces. But this again we need to consider the effects it has on the learning process.



There has been some great suggestions made by many Aikidoka in this thread that clearly have experience with this technique, besides me. Point being my suggestions are just adding to that pot of ways to deal with pain for the readers who also find Yonkyo unbearable. The purpose then so they may benefit from this thread.

Like I said above this also is a means of avoiding pain. How that effects the learning of the technique or is considered overtly complying with the technique. That is ok if that is understood that is what is going to take place during the practice of the technique between both parties. For the purpose to avoid pain or to accustom someone to the pain of the technique. Being ahead of the pain, or the technique can help. It is a means to reduce pain. Again we have to consider that a technique can be applied up to 50xs or more times a class. That is allot of wear and tear on the body in one class. That I think is really the issue here, on how to reduce the pain of the technique for those not accustom to it.

DH
07-13-2010, 11:42 PM
Well just for laughs I did it again tonight with another aikido guy from a different organization. Took about 10 minutes....no more yonkyo pain. Hell, he's on his way to no more yonkyo applied on him...period!
I have to rethink though, since the people I am meeting are teachers and students under established Shihan in several different organizations, maybe the reality is that Shihans in aikido are not holding back. Maybe they just don't know these things to teach in the first place and that is why their students are just taught to deal with the pain instead of learning how to cancel it out with no resistance...through aiki.
Dan

ruthmc
07-14-2010, 04:36 AM
I have to rethink though, since the people I am meeting are teachers and students under established Shihan in several different organizations, maybe the reality is that Shihans in aikido are not holding back. Maybe they just don't know these things to teach in the first place and that is why their students are just taught to deal with the pain instead of learning how to cancel it out with no resistance...through aiki.

I think you have a point there Dan!

I have no idea how to cancel out yonkyo in the way you describe - I can do it a different way but my way is more down to mental toughness and it doesn't remove all the pain :(

However, last night I figured out how to cancel out nikyo :D Sensei's Sensei has been doing this for some time, but he doesn't teach it, he waits for us to figure it out for ourselves. It took my Sensei a year to work it out from experiencing it with his Sensei. It's taken me 6 months from experiencing it with my Sensei. The helpful clue Sensei gave last night was that you have to make your centre 'disappear' - even though it's still facing tori and there is still a connection through your arm (it doesn't go flop and it doesn't tense up either) :cool:

The next thing to figure out is how to apply nikyo through a centre that has disappeared... ;)

Ruth

Pauliina Lievonen
07-14-2010, 05:43 AM
The next thing to figure out is how to apply nikyo through a centre that has disappeared... ;)

RuthGood luck with that. I can't nikkyo any of my peers at our dojo any more. Only people with a significantly smaller amount of experience. :crazy:

kvaak
Pauliina

Budd
07-14-2010, 08:58 AM
So, if you're thinking of aikido (the way of aiki) training as partially a means of capturing another's center on contact (any point of contact) via fitting in appropriately (ukemi) . . then in theory ANY technique should be an opportunity to practice this thing (the way of aiki) via the "shape" constraints of that technique.

In the case of yonkyu, it's a spiraling downward motion . . what's to be learned by giving up your center so someone can practice taking it? What's to be learned by hiding your center so someone has to worker to find and exploit it? What's to be learned by capturing their center when they touch you so that their efforts to apply a lock result in them pushing themselves away or putting themselves into a bad position that you can then exploit?

And so on and so on . .

And realistically none of this *has* to be done by cranking on someone's joints to the point of pain - though there is something to be said for the winding aspects being a kind of conditioning of the connective tissues - but if you aren't learning the way-of-aiki then it's only going to lead you so far.

But to that end, even if the "internal" training aspects are not important at your dojo, then the primary focus should be breaking the other person's balance . . pain compliance is really unreliable.

niall
07-14-2010, 09:01 AM
I never do yonkyo with kyusho application...I just go for the physiological control point rather than pain compliance.

personally, i wouldn't focus on pain compliant approach. i preferred the break balance approach.

...the primary focus should be breaking the other person's balance . . pain compliance is really unreliable.


Adam and Phi and Budd are exactly right - yonkyo is a joint technique not a pressure point technique.

It works on the uke's centre not on the forearm. The uke's balance is taken away.

If it's done correctly it is not possible for the uke to stop the elbow going right through the face.


These sorts of standing joint locks don't work on properly trained aiki adepts.

We don't do standing techniques in aikido, Dan. We do moving techniques.

On the pain point real aikido doesn't hurt. It's not supposed to. It only hurts if you are doing it wrong. The joint techniques in aikido are control techniques which are only painful if the uke doesn't want to follow and tries to escape.

NagaBaba
07-14-2010, 10:28 AM
Well just for laughs I did it again tonight with another aikido guy from a different organization. Took about 10 minutes....no more yonkyo pain. Hell, he's on his way to no more yonkyo applied on him...period!
I have to rethink though, since the people I am meeting are teachers and students under established Shihan in several different organizations, maybe the reality is that Shihans in aikido are not holding back. Maybe they just don't know these things to teach in the first place and that is why their students are just taught to deal with the pain instead of learning how to cancel it out with no resistance...through aiki.
Dan
You have such superficial knowledge about aikido and still coming to aikido forum to speak badly about our teachers. What a poor behavior. :(
You are example for your students. One day, they will speak badly about you. You taught them how to behave.

DH
07-14-2010, 11:20 AM
RYou have such superficial knowledge about aikido and still coming to aikido forum to speak badly about our teachers. What a poor behavior. :(
You are example for your students. One day, they will speak badly about you. You taught them how to behave.
I don't think that is accurate. I have spoken highly of certain teachers and of certain approaches. What I said above is not only true it is the opinion of about a dozen teachers in the art whom I know and train with.
I wonder if you can find Aikido teachers who I train with who will state I have a superficial understanding. If you disagree with points I've raised. ..state them. That's better than attacking me.
Dan

Buck
07-14-2010, 12:37 PM
Hey fellow Aikidoka,

Every time i take Ukemi for Yonkyo the pain is unbearable... most techniques you can relax and feel the pain and tap before its too much, but Yonkyo the pain is so sudden and sharp that i clench up and can barely tap.

I have heard that it should be used almost as an atemi, i can see how it would be effective as such.

Anyway my questions are:
Do you think i will begin to build up a tolerance to it?
Was it this bad for everyone when they first started to take ukemi for it, or am i just very susceptible?

Arigato Goziamasu in advance,
Daniel.

To answer the question now directly with my opinion. The question was, there is pain while taking ukemi and is unbearable. Based on all the background information I provided I would say, assuming the pain is not from hitting the ground. That is falling is painless it is hitting the ground that hurts. Rather the mechanics of the technique make it painful. Yonkyo's original design was to damage the enemy's body to prevent counters and to defeat the enemy. Allot of that pain may have to do with the way you fall, how your body is aligned during the fall.

The other thing is there is so many variations on Yonkyo. I seen it done with only one hand and called Yonkyo as an example. Because we can't see Daniel as uke like on a vid, we don't really know enough accurately help. He could be taking ukemi late, or off-line resulting in excessive pain for him. This is along Naill's point that we are synced in. That moving away from the technique in such a way will cause pain. For me it increases the pain, which was calculated in the original design of Yonkyo to happen. The jujitsu originator(s) I think understood, from experience, humans naturally, unless otherwise trained, move away from the source of pain.

Thereby, they designed the waza based on that information. You try to escape or resist and your more screwed than if you don't. That is you fall away from the waza in such a way it increase the pain. Proper Yonkyo is painful in any direction if you try to resist or escape. I am not saying Yonkyo can't fail. Am speaking design theory and how that relates to pain.

I would guess Daniel's unbearable pain is resulting from how he taking ukemi that works to the benefit of the purpose of the waza as a jujitsu result. That is the increased pain may be do to the manner in which he is taking ukemi.

I would also think the Shi is either doing the waza very well or very poorly. Again we don't know that information. Therefore, I would say in the context of all I have said, that as time goes on, and so does the pain, Daniel will take ukemi in such a way that will elevate some of the pain to a point where it is bearable under both said conditions. It just shows how important ukemi is to Aikido.

C. David Henderson
07-14-2010, 02:59 PM
Daniel,

FWIW.

First, don't be concerned that yonkyo will damage your joints or nerves -- it probably won't. Although one time after class I did wonder how I was supposed to keep hold of the steering wheel of my car....

Second, like a lot of other people, I found it hurt less over time (and yes, I still have full feeling in my wrists and hands).

Third, without suggesting its the "best" or "only" way, over time if you learn to allow the movement of the technique to go through your center, and move with it, you can at least delay any discomfort until the pin, when nage should be able to modulate the amount of pressure to what's necessary. This isn't about taking a quick dive, but letting the force go through your center rather than having it localized around the nerve.

Fourth, I don't recommend "tensing" the arm. This tends, IME, to localize the stimulus at the same time it prevents involving the center.

Out of curiosity -- have you spoken to you teacher about this problem? The way your school handles the situation is probably what you should try to learn first.

YMMV

Regards

gregstec
07-14-2010, 06:22 PM
The next thing to figure out is how to apply nikyo through a centre that has disappeared... ;)

Ruth

Give them your center than just take it back, or make a center for them and then just go through it :)


Greg

Buck
07-14-2010, 10:59 PM
To answer the question now directly with my opinion. The question was, there is pain while taking ukemi and is unbearable. Based on all the background information I provided I would say, assuming the pain is not from hitting the ground. That is falling is painless it is hitting the ground that hurts. Rather the mechanics of the technique make it painful. Yonkyo's original design was to damage the enemy's body to prevent counters and to defeat the enemy. Allot of that pain may have to do with the way you fall, how your body is aligned during the fall.

The other thing is there is so many variations on Yonkyo. I seen it done with only one hand and called Yonkyo as an example. Because we can't see Daniel as uke like on a vid, we don't really know enough accurately help. He could be taking ukemi late, or off-line resulting in excessive pain for him. This is along Naill's point that we are synced in. That moving away from the technique in such a way will cause pain. For me it increases the pain, which was calculated in the original design of Yonkyo to happen. The jujitsu originator(s) I think understood, from experience, humans naturally, unless otherwise trained, move away from the source of pain.

Thereby, they designed the waza based on that information. You try to escape or resist and your more screwed than if you don't. That is you fall away from the waza in such a way it increase the pain. Proper Yonkyo is painful in any direction if you try to resist or escape. I am not saying Yonkyo can't fail. Am speaking design theory and how that relates to pain.

I would guess Daniel's unbearable pain is resulting from how he taking ukemi that works to the benefit of the purpose of the waza as a jujitsu result. That is the increased pain may be do to the manner in which he is taking ukemi.

I would also think the Shi is either doing the waza very well or very poorly. Again we don't know that information. Therefore, I would say in the context of all I have said, that as time goes on, and so does the pain, Daniel will take ukemi in such a way that will elevate some of the pain to a point where it is bearable under both said conditions. It just shows how important ukemi is to Aikido.

The above quote is offered as a connivence to the reader.

Ok, let's work outside the box. Previously we worked inside the box. Here goes, to ease, even eliminate pain and even prevent tissue damage, and I dare say, a way to insure the technique to fail, in regard to the ukemi of Yonkyo, is to be flexible. To that extent would be defined by at least several months of Yoga. That is the more flexible you are the less pain you will experience in Aikido. In general terms, Aikido doesn't focus on flexibility like that of gymnastics for example. Aikido at the kihon level depends on inflexible uke’s. The more inflexible the joints and limbs of the uke, the more painful things are, such as taking ukemi from Yonkyo. The more flexible the less there is pain. As one of my sensei’s once said when I was concerned about the pain connected with a technique, “It is a loving stretch.” A statement with many layers. Daniel, if he is still following this thread, may consider that flexible limbs and joints will ease the pain experience as he stated his concerns.

DH
07-15-2010, 02:36 PM
We don't do standing techniques in aikido, Dan. We do moving techniques.

On the pain point real aikido doesn't hurt. It's not supposed to. It only hurts if you are doing it wrong. The joint techniques in aikido are control techniques which are only painful if the uke doesn't want to follow and tries to escape.
Hello Niall
The "standing joint lock" comment referred to doing locks..standing up....not be confused with "standing still."
That said, cancelling yonkyo is done without much percetable movement at all, on contact, so further movement is not "required" it is an option.
Having to move..should tell you something.
Cheers
Dan

Mikemac
07-21-2010, 12:30 PM
Just got my first taste of Yonkyo yesterday in class. My forearms are still sore today. :crazy:

DH
07-21-2010, 02:41 PM
Mikemac writes: Just got my first taste of Yonkyo yesterday in class. My forearms are still sore today.

Interesting. I gave a guy his first taste the other night, then showed him how to start to neutralize it on the spot and then with aiki, simultaneously capture those doing it to him.
Sorry for your pain, it is entirely unnecessary and even counter productive in my view. I've personally found that teaching people to do aiki to capture someone on contact who is applying a lock on them was a desirable attribute that was received very well. Those I have shown it to said they would never go back. Now they can just walk through an ukemi and do the dance for nage...but now with no pain and in total control of the situation. Their movement becomes voluntary.
As was noted to me by a student of O'sensei, and was also included in an interview with another of his early Deshi and in some training notes from a student of Sagawa in the 60's; locks were meant to condition the body and to be absorbed. Aiki is meant to work both ways, and it can be taught from day one. It's probably a good idea to inquire about that.
Cheers
Dan

jss
07-22-2010, 02:18 AM
As I said you can pretty much teach them to stop a yonkyo ...on the spot. No one was able to put a yonkyo on anyone after about 5 minutes of proper instruction.This included a very large san dan doing Yonkyo on a small newbie and having it canceled out while the newbie stood there smiling canceling out both the pain the movement motivation of the lock.
From which setup do you teach this?
Uke attacks (shomen uchi or aihanmi katate dori or ...), tori performs yonkyo and at the moment tori applies the lock, uke cancels it out? If so, I can't believe the sandan was unable to perform it on the newbie.
Fortunately, in an other post you mention the lock is cancelled out at the moment of contact. But if you have uke cancel it out at the moment tori makes contact with uke's attack, yonkyo is almost indistinguishable from ikkyo, nikkyo or sankyo. So why mention yonkyo specifically. Ikkyo would make more sense.
So my conclusion would be that you have uke stand balanced and prepared with his arm in a yonkyo shape, then tori tries to apply the yonkyo and uke cancels it out? That's quite a cool thing to learn in 5 minutes, but quite a different scenario than the other two.

DH
07-22-2010, 07:28 AM
From which setup do you teach this?
Uke attacks (shomen uchi or aihanmi katate dori or ...), tori performs yonkyo and at the moment tori applies the lock, uke cancels it out? If so, I can't believe the sandan was unable to perform it on the newbie.
Fortunately, in another post you mention the lock is cancelled out at the moment of contact. But if you have uke cancel it out at the moment tori makes contact with uke's attack, yonkyo is almost indistinguishable from ikkyo, nikkyo or sankyo. So why mention yonkyo specifically. Ikkyo would make more sense.
So my conclusion would be that you have uke stand balanced and prepared with his arm in a yonkyo shape, then tori tries to apply the yonkyo and uke cancels it out? That's quite a cool thing to learn in 5 minutes, but quite a different scenario than the other two.
Hello Joseph
Yes it was just static...just an example of potentials to get peoples minds working on an idea. Dude! How much do you think I can do in five or ten minutes?:D
That said, the various dynamic versions get's more complex but are even more effective, not less effective. The killer being that over time they tend to happen naturally, so you end up either standing there staring at a teacher who is not training aiki, as his best efforts come to not and/or your strikes go right through them, or you decide to take a dive. What most likely will happen though is that you realize as time goes by less and less people can do anything to you. Of course, certain things take a bit of time to burn in, but are quite effective on contact none-the-less, others would take years to condition the body to do.

The point remains; that it's a process that I believe should be taking place every step of the way from the moment someone walks in the door. In the fullness of time, you end up with Daito ryu and aikido people who could go out from the dojo as quite potent players in various venues with an aiki that works; both in attack and neutralizing throws and strikes that actually has meaning. Then, within the dojo, receiving, taking Ukemi and "taking air time" all become choices on any given day, all while every one is learning to be monstrously effective and decisive in using aiki to stop some VERY effective attacks.
Mind/ body conditioning should be matched to external coordination of movement that all contribute to producing aiki effects as a seamless whole. Both of them should be worked together. Unfortunately that is not always the case. Some people are practicing things and really working it and are going to find they were trying to fit the proverbial square peg into a round hole.
It has been my experience that for people in the aiki arts ( Daito ryu and Aikido) there is a way to train that is so empowering and potent, and so much doggone fun, that most look at the old way of doing things as boring and mundane by comparison.
Cheers
Dan

chillzATL
07-22-2010, 10:01 AM
Hello Joseph
Yes it was just static...just an example of potentials to get peoples minds working on an idea. Dude! How much do you think I can do in five or ten minutes?:D
That said, the various dynamic versions get's more complex but are even more effective, not less effective. The killer being that over time they tend to happen naturally, so you end up either standing there staring at a teacher who is not training aiki, as his best efforts come to not and/or your strikes go right through them, or you decide to take a dive. What most likely will happen though is that you realize as time goes by less and less people can do anything to you. Of course, certain things take a bit of time to burn in, but are quite effective on contact none-the-less, others would take years to condition the body to do.

The point remains; that it's a process that I believe should be taking place every step of the way from the moment someone walks in the door. In the fullness of time, you end up with Daito ryu and aikido people who could go out from the dojo as quite potent players in various venues with an aiki that works; both in attack and neutralizing throws and strikes that actually has meaning. Then, within the dojo, receiving, taking Ukemi and "taking air time" all become choices on any given day, all while every one is learning to be monstrously effective and decisive in using aiki to stop some VERY effective attacks.
Mind/ body conditioning should be matched to external coordination of movement that all contribute to producing aiki effects as a seamless whole. Both of them should be worked together. Unfortunately that is not always the case. Some people are practicing things and really working it and are going to find they were trying to fit the proverbial square peg into a round hole.
It has been my experience that for people in the aiki arts ( Daito ryu and Aikido) there is a way to train that is so empowering and potent, and so much doggone fun, that most look at the old way of doing things as boring and mundane by comparison.
Cheers
Dan

Dan,

Atlanta.

That is all. :)

DH
07-22-2010, 10:28 AM
Will happen this year
That is all....:D

chillzATL
07-22-2010, 10:46 AM
Will happen this year
That is all....:D

Good man, now just remember to keep some of us poor sods in mind when it does!