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Aikidonewbie
05-31-2010, 09:03 PM
One of the techniques that I have a lot of difficulty with is the hiji-ate throw. I try to turn my elbow over and extend downward but I never seem to really pressure Uke's elbow (my Uke does not have to go on his toes). On the flip side, this technique is really painful when I am the Uke and I have difficulty avoiding the pain. Anybody got any tips for this technique, both the application and protecting yourself when you are the Uke?

RED
05-31-2010, 09:33 PM
As far as uke goes, They are applying the technique to the elbow right? Yeah, the elbow hurts a little. My teacher says "Its behooving to be moving!"
I was taught that technique three specific ways: across the elbow, you can also lower the person over if they are a lot taller than you, and across the chest/through the armpit.
The two last ones don't hurt, and in the correct circumstances are just as effective, in my experience, and according to my instructors.
The elbow is effective too by all means! But it is nice to learn other ways to do stuff. Reliance on pain compliance can be a crutch...according to my instructors. Like yonkyo for instance. Don't rely on the pain aspect, make sure you are controlling the uke's center more so than the pain... I've met plenty of people who can't feel yonkyo...those freaks are annoying lol

niall
05-31-2010, 09:38 PM
Daniel I'm not sure what hiji ate throw is (ate means strike so hiji ate is usually an elbow strike).

There's a throw some teachers call udekimenage. Uke's arm is extended and the throw is made usually with tori's forearm applying pressure to the back of uke's arm. Is that what you mean?

For that waza one point as you start to control the technique is always to try to adjust uke's wrist so that the palm is up/forward. Then by entering naturally under the uke's arm with your own arm extended you will put the uke on tiptoe. Do the technique with big movements too.

Taking the ukemi don't be passive - that means don't wait for the pain to kick in and don't let the full weight of your body come on to your own joint. You mustn't go too early either but you always have to protect yourself.

RED
05-31-2010, 09:45 PM
Daniel I'm not sure what hiji ate throw is (ate means strike so hiji ate is usually an elbow strike).

There's a throw some teachers call udekimenage. Uke's arm is extended and the throw is made usually with tori's forearm applying pressure to the back of uke's arm. Is that what you mean?

For that waza one point as you start to control the technique is always to try to adjust uke's wrist so that the palm is up/forward. Then by entering naturally under the uke's arm with your own arm extended you will put the uke on tiptoe. Do the technique with big movements too.

Taking the ukemi don't be passive - that means don't wait for the pain to kick in and don't let the full weight of your body come on to your own joint. You mustn't go too early either but you always have to protect yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIKF_n2-ruY
Yeah, I had to look it up, I know it as udekimenage. But apparently some people call it hiji-ate.

Aikidonewbie
05-31-2010, 09:46 PM
Yes, this throw I am describing is udekimenage. I think Hiji-ate must be a older term for this throw...

niall
05-31-2010, 10:06 PM
Thanks Maggie, and Daniel for the clarification - looks like it's the Yoshinkan name? This is the kind of thing hiji ate is normally in Japanese and it's what someone I knew used to do as the atemi when he did irimi nage (he had 7 dan in karate). He did it a lot faster. Made us pay attention.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI6Msdj05XY

RED
05-31-2010, 10:37 PM
Thanks Maggie, and Daniel for the clarification - looks like it's the Yoshinkan name? This is the kind of thing hiji ate is normally in Japanese and it's what someone I knew used to do as the atemi when he did irimi nage (he had 7 dan in karate). He did it a lot faster. Made us pay attention.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI6Msdj05XY

Everyone calls stuff differently. If my memory is serving me(correct me if i am wrong) O'Sensei didn't name techniques; except kokyu.
I've walked into seminars with people calling what I call irimi, koyku, and vise versa.
It's all good.:cool:

Michael Hackett
06-01-2010, 12:27 AM
There are a couple of efficient ways of doing this throw. The normal AAA way is to position your upper arm high on Uke's body in the tricep/armpit area with your palm up (like holding a pizza aloft). Your other hand will have his wrist low against your hip with his whole arm locked across your body. Holding the wrist, step through and rotate your palm down, smashing the pizza to the mat.

Another way I've experienced comes from Yoseikan (I think). You almost get your shoulder into Uke's arm pit while locking his arm across your body with both hands near the wrist. You slightly rotate your center a few degrees away from Uke's body and step through, using the arm against your shoulder as a fulcrum.

As for the ukemi, what works for me with either technique is to get my weight upperside and try to float into the fall. The first usually results in an easy forward roll, while the second ends up being almost a breakfall because of a "snapping" motion at the time of release.\

Hope this helps in some way.

Adam Huss
06-01-2010, 01:06 AM
Coming from some experience in different styles of aikido, I've noticed a difference between the details of sumiotoshi and hijiate nage. I think the original idea of hijiate, in respect to aikido, was basically a joint strike. Maybe a DRAJJ person could answer up if they have hijiate in the hiden mokoroku or something like that? That being said...does anyone else call variations of this technique sumi otoshi? We had it in the AAA curriculum... the main differences being elbow placement and how the projection is being conducted.

Here is a really good (albeit in Japanese) demonstration of many Yoshinkan variations of hijiate nage by Inoue Kyoichi Sensei (hakama):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgBTi1lrg10

hijiate goes until about 2:15 mark then goes into some Yoshinkan Jiyuwaza.

As far as calling it sumiotoshi (soto sabaki) I can't find any clips of that...so we must be in the minority on that one...most people seem to do just the uchi variation....or even a kokyunage in the technique their sumiotoshi.

ninjaqutie
06-01-2010, 01:22 PM
I didn't know what you were talking about until I watched the vid! We just call it kokyunage in my dojo.

cguzik
06-01-2010, 02:16 PM
As far as calling it sumiotoshi (soto sabaki) I can't find any clips of that...so we must be in the minority on that one...

Adam, I am most familiar with "sumi otoshi" as the name for this technique as well.

There are indeed lots of ways this is done -- which may be part of the reason for the terminology differences. Off the top of my head there are at least two dimensions along which the technique can vary, in addition to omote/ura:

- Uke's elbow is extended (or hyper extended) versus being bent and pointed across the torso to control the shoulder and hips

- Nage's weight drops down underneath uke's center (causing uke to either roll or end up bent over in an awkward fashion) versus nage taking the elbow out past uke's center, causing uke to step or leap into a roll to save the arm (whether it's the elbow or the shoulder being threatened depends on which of the first variation is being applied).

So I can imagine four different versions of this based on the combinations of those two parameters. Add omote and ura directions and you have eight variations.

Edit: I think some schools consider "sumi otoshi" to only pertain to the technique where nage is in front of uke's body rather than behind, where the ukemi is either uke turning and rolling/breakfalling or doing a back fall. But I have heard this one called that too.

phitruong
06-01-2010, 04:27 PM
elbow is misleading. it's really the shoulder. the elbow helps locking into the shoulder which locks into the spine which disrupts the power flow of uke and the balance. now for those who know the shoulder strike, it would be very bad for uke. of course if uke knows how to do should strike, it would be bad for nage. it goes both way.

Stormcrow34
06-01-2010, 05:34 PM
In Yoseikan we call it "tembin nage"; or "scale throw". There are a number of variations, from a quick elbow hyper-extension all the way to a very effective entry into shiho nage or yuki chigae depending on if you want to go out or in...or ...once you have uke moving, you can block the legs and drop them at your feet. That's where a good uke will need a ratchet fall.

Rabih Shanshiry
06-01-2010, 05:36 PM
I didn't know what you were talking about until I watched the vid! We just call it kokyunage in my dojo.

In the Yoshinkan, it is also referred to as Hiji Ate Kokyu Nage. That is also the case within the Doshinkan (AANA).

...rab

Michael Hackett
06-01-2010, 10:03 PM
Ah yes, tembin nage is the Yoseikan name I couldn't recall earlier. Sumi otoshi in the AAA curriculum is a direct attack to the elbow and results in a "corner drop".

Facing Uke, Nage would grab the right wrist with his left hand, step outside to the left, place his right hand in the crook of the elbow and step through, throwing from the center.

Soto variations require a tenkan movement to end up facing in the same direction and Nage grabs the wrist with one hand and the elbow with the other, pushing the elbow forward as he steps through and throws. Similarly, Nage can, from the tenkan position, drop his arm straight down towards the mat over the top of Uke's arm while holding his wrist and then drop his center and thus drop Uke straight down.

There are a gadzillion ways to get to these points from the various attacks, but these three sumi otoshi are the most common in the AAA.

RED
06-01-2010, 10:06 PM
I love the sort of counter ballance, sling shot feel of this technique. There is a certain joy to this technique that gets addictive if you can get the sling shot effect in sync.

eyrie
06-02-2010, 02:15 AM
There are a couple of ways to look at this technique... one bears a remarkable similarity to a karate lunge punch (oi-zuki), in that you are "hitting" uke's tricep tendon with your forearm - hence "hiji-ate".

Another way is not unlike a straight forward kokyu nage, in which the forward movement of funekogi undo is used to throw uke, whilst your forearm is contacting uke's tricep tendon.

CitoMaramba
06-02-2010, 02:58 AM
In this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twMCGvV9P6s#t=6m06s
Nishio Sensei shows his take on udekimenage, showing the atemi possibilities in the technique..

niall
06-02-2010, 03:32 AM
Thanks Inocencio - that's a clear and sharp explanation.

By the way if you go back and watch the beginning of the video it's relevant to some other forum threads. Nishio Sensei discusses if aikido is a budo or not and one of O Sensei's purposes in creating aikido - showing the right direction for budo for the future.

Aiki1
06-02-2010, 01:25 PM
Thanks Inocencio - that's a clear and sharp explanation.

By the way if you go back and watch the beginning of the video it's relevant to some other forum threads. Nishio Sensei discusses if aikido is a budo or not and one of O Sensei's purposes in creating aikido - showing the right direction for budo for the future.

In his opinion.

Charlie
06-02-2010, 03:20 PM
...One of the techniques that I have a lot of difficulty with is the hiji-ate throw...

I looked up your listed dojo as a reference of where your understanding is coming from and was a little surprised to see that you come from a USAF affiliated dojo. Surprised because of your usage of the nomenclature "hiji-ate" which [as others have already noted] is normally associated [in Aikido] with the Yoshinkan lineage .

Anyway, just thought it important to reiterate that when used in the Yoshinkan format to note the full technique title:

*[B]shomen tsuki [or whatever strike uke uses] hiji-ate KOKYU-NAGE ichi [or ni]

*front thrust hitting elbow BREATH THROW one or two

Please notice the emphasis on the breath throw aspect of the technique. IMO it is the main meat of the technique [as presented in the Yoshinkan format]. The hiji-ate is used as an entry way to uke's center to affect the breath throw. I think that many get tied up in over reliance on the hiji-ate part of the technique and forget what should actually be creating the throw. This misunderstanding is what may cause some to fail to get uke up on their toes.

I find that if you are having trouble getting uke up on their toes then maybe go back and look to TENCHINAGE as an indicator of what may be wrong in your technique. ;)

EDIT: Oh yeah...for uke...in the Yoshinkan to protect the elbow we flip out of the technique.

Aikidonewbie
06-02-2010, 05:22 PM
Quick question- I really don 't understand the concept of breath throws in aikido and wonder how that could be applicable to this technique...

Charlie
06-03-2010, 01:49 PM
Quick question- I really don 't understand the concept of breath throws in aikido and wonder how that could be applicable to this technique...

Crack that nut and you'll have this whole Aikido thing licked! :D

phitruong
06-03-2010, 02:08 PM
Quick question- I really don 't understand the concept of breath throws in aikido and wonder how that could be applicable to this technique...

it's either:
1. bad breath that throws folks off
2. internal stuffs which would spark a war of debate

:)

RED
06-03-2010, 02:50 PM
A teacher told me once "View kokyu this way: Breath the attacker in, and breath them out throughout the technique"

eyrie
06-04-2010, 12:53 AM
Quick question- I really don 't understand the concept of breath throws in aikido and wonder how that could be applicable to this technique... There's no such thing as a "quick" question... ;)

Crack that nut and you'll have this whole Aikido thing licked! That's the short answer... :D

phitruong
06-04-2010, 07:07 AM
A teacher told me once "View kokyu this way: Breath the attacker in, and breath them out throughout the technique"

what if the attacker is big and you can't inhale him/her/it in one breath? :D

RED
06-04-2010, 11:24 AM
what if the attacker is big and you can't inhale him/her/it in one breath? :D

hmm,sounds like a personal problem

Sam Turnage
06-04-2010, 12:29 PM
I didn't know what you were talking about until I watched the vid! We just call it kokyunage in my dojo.

I had know idea either we call this jujinage at our dojo

Adam Huss
06-04-2010, 11:44 PM
I guess its kind of makes sense how you could call it jujinage...or a variation thereof. Usually jujinage is made by both uke's arms making the ju symbol...not a combination of uke and nage. But its an interesting idea...thanks for sharing! Very cool stuff.

odudog
06-07-2010, 05:03 PM
In Yoseikan we call it "tembin nage"; or "scale throw". ....

(n) (1) (balance) scales; (2) shoulder carrying pole; (3) steelyard

Tenbin in this fashion goes more with the second definition. Some people also call this throw jujinage. There was a thread about this here some time ago.

WilliB
08-24-2010, 02:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIKF_n2-ruY
Yeah, I had to look it up, I know it as udekimenage. But apparently some people call it hiji-ate.

Umm... just to muddle the issue further, I did not know "hijiate" or "udekimenage" either. What that video shows we call "tenbin" or "tenbin nage".

(style Aikikai, location Tokyo)

Anthony Loeppert
08-27-2010, 07:04 PM
Reliance on pain compliance can be a crutch...according to my instructors.

Yes, I much prefer gravity. :)

Lan Powers
09-07-2010, 04:29 PM
Aannnndddd
for just one more variant, since I haven't seen it appear here yet, our school uses the term udi-hiji nage (arm, elbow throw) since that seemed to describe it best.
You know, nages arm extended under ukes elbow...etc.
The most crucial part of this ukemi is to keep a slight curve in the extended arm. NO hyperextension.
( we also tend to cross ukes arm in more of the triceps area than directly on the joint,) on the mat.
application? perhaps not so much. ;)

C. David Henderson
09-14-2010, 11:39 AM
FWIW, we would call this jujinage as well. I wouldn't have considered this a form of sumi otoshi, but YMMV.

I think I tend to take some pressure off the elbow joint by (1) allowing my center to rise; (2) allowing my center to reorient towards nage during the throw; and (3) as Maggie emphasized, not being stuck//moving.

Hope that's useful.

WilliB
09-14-2010, 07:03 PM
I had know idea either we call this jujinage at our dojo

In case of doubt, you can call anything a kokyunage. Thatīs what our teachers do :-)