Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

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[Mark Mueller]

Interesting video.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb_CC3GE18M&feature=player_embedded#!

Opinions?

[DH]

Oh my! Opinions?
Is it really safe to talk about people in videos?
Okay, the Chen guy is unimpressive. Bully for him for trying.
Lets see,
1. The kids entered so many times and CZQ had to empty step (positional change without meaning) all over the place through the video.
2. Nary a clean throw by him anywhere.
3. He showed lots of failed attempts while seriously trying to enter.
4. He got caught in several places as well.
5. Overall he looks rather tight, and he obviously does not know how to fight in that venue-the many failures are evidence of that
6. Add to that- the fact that the kids in the vid were terrible as well and offered no real pressure to start with.
7. His position changes left many openings that the kids did not know how to take advantage of. I can only imagine if strikes, kicks and an MMA format were to be the venue.

Hopefully more and more taiji guys and DR guys!!! , will take their stuff out on the road and go play with people who both know how to fight, and have a vested interest in seeing them undone. Winning and more importantly losing, is a great learning tool to grow past, push hands or one step kata.

Dan

[sakumeikan]

The Chen guy is unimpressive. The kids entered so many times and CZQ had to empty step (positional change without meaning) all over the place through the video. Nary a clean throw by him anywhere and he showed lots of failed attempts while seriously trying to enter. He also got caught in several places as well.
Overall he looks rather tight, and he obviously does not know how to fight in that venue-the many failures are evidence of that. I can only imagine if strikes, kicks and an MMA format were to be the venue.
Hopefully more and more taiji guys and DR guys!!! , will take their stuff out on the road and go play with people who both know how to fight, and have a vested interest in seeing them undone. Winning and more importantly losing, is a great learning tool to grow past, push hands or one step kata, .

Dan
Dear Dan ,
I think the instructors guys were hardly trying to throw him,The instructor himself used a lot of small foot throws which quite frankly anybody with a half decent posture would have avoided.Same with the arm entanglements, sorry I did not think them too efficient.I saw no real attempt at foot sweeps or leg throws anywhere coming from the pupil.

[DH]

Dear Joe
His body positioning and changes says it all, whether he followed through or not is not an issue. Managing the kids efforts should have been child's play with many opportunities for clear and clean counters. He just isn't up to what I have seen from Chen guys. Compare him to Chen Bing or LCD; he's not as loose and snapping, he doesn't nuetralize like he should and he is far less decisive in his actions.

I'm not arm chair quaterbacking, I do stuff like this all the time with better pressure than that being offered. Being mindful that grappling and fighting is dirty and rarely clean, there is much that is revealed in the attempts. I am not sure you have a case for their just playing and that being a reason for the poor exchanges-thats even more reason for cleaner moves. IOW, with such a supposed power and skill differential things should have been...lets just say...clearer and cleaner than that. YMMV.
Cheers
Dan

[Mike Sigman]

Okay, the Chen guy is unimpressive. Why am I not surprised by this comment? :rolleyes: Let's see some video, Dan. Ziqiang is only doing push-hands.... in a very limited format. He's being very careful not to do anything to hurt anyone. From that we get the observation that he is, like everyone else in the world, not quite up to the level of The One, The reborn Chinese Warlord? :D

Mike Sigman

[Mark Mueller]

Mike, Those were my thoughts too.....They are only practicing with what appears to be pretty limited rules. My unexperienced eye seemed to notice some similarity of movement to Akuzawa.

Certainly not full fledged San Shou.....

Best, Mark

[Mike Sigman]

Mike, Those were my thoughts too.....They are only practicing with what appears to be pretty limited rules. My unexperienced eye seemed to notice some similarity of movement to Akuzawa.
Well, don't forget that I just recently posted a video with Chen Ziqiang competing in actual San Shou Dao (aka Sanda) in post #18 of the 'training/sparring' thread. CZQ is in the first match starting @ 2:20. These guys are wearing armor but watch the expression on his opponent's face when Ziqiang hits. And then understand that he is still pulling his punches and techniques because the stuff is also "limited format" with strict rules. That BS-level push-hands video in the OP of this thread has zero to do with "San Shou" and should be viewed for what it is: grabass.

http://bugu.cntv.cn/sports/other/wulindahui/classpage/video/20100420/101111.shtml

I'm no fan of Ziqiang's but I haven't heard of anyone beat him, although I've heard of a few people that disparage him without really having the brass to face him . He does come to the U.S. I suspect we need to have a few of the bs-artists go to him and 'ask for a lesson'. I.e., make the challenge first and do the talking later. ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[Mike Sigman]

BTW, here's an article about Chen Ziqiang:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=681

I'm going to have fun passing the word to him that he needs to play with people that know how to fight. His fights are on record against some actual 'name' people; let's see the fight records of those critical of him.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[Thomas Campbell]

His fights are on record against some actual 'name' people

Where?

[Eric Joyce]

BTW, here's an article about Chen Ziqiang:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=681

I'm going to have fun passing the word to him that he needs to play with people that know how to fight. His fights are on record against some actual 'name' people; let's see the fight records of those critical of him.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Interesting article Mike. Thanks for posting. I thought his explanation of spliting energies was interesting.

[Thomas Campbell]

They are only practicing with what appears to be pretty limited rules. My unexperienced eye seemed to notice some similarity of movement to Akuzawa.

Certainly not full fledged San Shou.....



Agreed . . . something like free style push-hands, primarily stand-up grappling, sweeps and hooks but no kicking, shoulder kao but no fists or elbows.

I didn't see a lot in CZQ's own movement that reminded me of Akuzawa, but studying it again with a focus on the partner/opponent's movement and responses, I saw a number of moments that reminded me of the effect Akuzawa has, taking sharp and forcible control of the center . . . 7:35 is one example.

[Thomas Campbell]

Interesting article Mike. Thanks for posting. I thought his explanation of spliting energies was interesting.

I liked this part:

"Pushing hands," he says, "was designed to practice one's skill and taiji strategy. This involves learning both attacking and defending skills. Most beginners just want to attack, however, because attacking is easier, and it takes less skill. Defending is always much harder to learn how to master. But against another trained martial artist, one's ability to defend is what will determine the outcome of the fight. So people should practice more learning how to dissolve an opponent's energy than think about attacking."

I ask Chen Ziqiang what he concentrates on when he is pushing hands with someone. He says, "I completely forget about the form. I only concentrate on where my opponent's energy is, and my position in relationship to that energy. That tells me where I have to be, or move to, in order to control the situation. When I am no longer feeling threatened by my opponent's energy, I then determine what application is best to utilize."

I ask Chen Ziqiang what he means by forgetting the form. He says, "Each movement in the form incorporates many different energies. Pulling, pushing, turning, deflecting, dissolving, cranking, squeezing, pounding, and many more. In pushing hands, the situation is constantly changing, so you can never use a movement just like it is done in the form. You have to be able to adjust instantly to any new incoming force, so you are constantly changing your position in relationship with your opponent.

[Thomas Campbell]

People have seen these clips of Chen Bing, filmed in June 2008, before, but I thought they made for interesting comparisons with his younger cousin Chen Ziqiang:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWBBhVLbDgk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs&NR=1&feature=fvwp

[DH]

Where?
Yes, Who? Where? It is always interesting to see who considers what to be "good." I would like to see something with a higher level of skill displayed than what everyone seems to agree was a B.S. display. His defensive counters and entries were less than stellar.

After seeing other videos of CZQ with his students on that link, it would be interesting to see a higher level of skilled attack for him to defend against, and something more convincing than that display. If he is supposedly that good and just sort of cooperating-it might explain some things, but it still doesn't explain others. He still looks tight to me- compared to other Chen guys.

On one of those other linked clips the kid attacks with an O soto gari and breaks CZQ's posture sideways and he is arm dragged forward and CZQ has to step twice to recover. Hard to understand how that is to be considered "good" against low level pressure. Compare that to Chen Bing's video's in #1 and #2. They are an interesting comparison; much looser, more definitive, and very clear, all while grappling with an experienced grappler. You didn't see a lot of compromised dead position changes, foot placements and empty moves, and the grappler himself looked more capable and offered better positioning in his attacks.

Dan

[Mike Sigman]

Reading that magazine article, it was interesting to note that Chen Ziqiang was a well-known fighter and competitor with recorded public recognition before he became a judge of others. That's not always the case in the martial-arts world.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[[By the way, Ziqiang is pronounced sort of like "Tsur Chahng"]]

[DH]

Reading that magazine article, it was interesting to note that Chen Ziqiang was a well-known fighter and competitor with recorded public recognition before he became a judge of others. That's not always the case in the martial-arts world.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[[By the way, Ziqiang is pronounced sort of like "Tsur Chahng"]]
Yes I heard that of some other big name ICMA guys as well...who frankly were a profound disappointment. Some were great, others were just good jujutsu guys; no more, no less. I had felt better pressure from good collegiate wrestlers and MMA guys.
How much you want to bet CZQ thinks that video sucked as well and would agree with me? But you can go ahead and be "impressed" by that display for the both of us.

Dan

[Mike Sigman]

Yes I heard that of some other big name ICMA guys as well...who frankly were a profound disappointment. What "big names" were a profound disappointment, Dan? From what you've written about your own skills (while trivializing others'), AFAIK the only real Chinese 'name' you've encountered is Wang Hai Jun, who is a disciple of Chen ZhengLei's and has won tournaments, etc. I've heard you trivialize his skills publicly, so I guess maybe he was a 'disappointment' to you. Would you suggest that he thinks your skills are high level, to look at the other side of the coin?

BTW, I think you somehow confuse various "people who give workshops, teach, or claim lineage" as somehow being known experts. That's not really the way it's looked at in China; there are tons of people who fall into that category.

So you'd say that Wang Hai Jun is a disappointment, then? And Chen Ziqiang is 'unimpressive'. Etc., etc., every time. Is there *anyone* who approaches you in skill and knowledge or is it fruitless to look for such a person?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[DH]

What "big names" were a profound disappointment, Dan? From what you've written about your own skills (while trivializing others'), AFAIK the only real Chinese 'name' you've encountered is Wang Hai Jun, who is a disciple of Chen ZhengLei's and has won tournaments, etc. I've heard you trivialize his skills publicly, so I guess maybe he was a 'disappointment' to you. Would you suggest that he thinks your skills are high level, to look at the other side of the coin?

BTW, I think you somehow confuse various "people who give workshops, teach, or claim lineage" as somehow being known experts. That's not really the way it's looked at in China; there are tons of people who fall into that category.

So you'd say that Wang Hai Jun is a disappointment, then? And Chen Ziqiang is 'unimpressive'. Etc., etc., every time. Is there *anyone* who approaches you in skill and knowledge or is it fruitless to look for such a person?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Your misquotes, baiting and putting words in my mouth are meaningless to me. If you have anything to add to the thread please do so. We already know your opinion of my opinions; put it in one of your infamous P.M.'s. IOW, state something meaningful about the video or stay out of it.
1. You don't think he's tight for a Chen guy?
That would explain some of our disagreements on the quality of IP/ aiki in actual use.
2. You think his movements (in such a low pressured environment) were good...
That is very interesting to me as well and would explain even more of our contentions about movement and IP/.aiki.
3.I outlined several postural failures, very poor throw attempts (among some good ones) various empty positional movements and in a linked video a pressured loss of balance. Something that you apparently don't or can't see and are at a loss to explain, other than to explain it away.

Okay, that's fine. We disagree.
Lets- "archive it" ;) and move on to on topic discussion. No one needs the drama.
Dan

[Mike Sigman]

1. You don't think he's tight for a Chen guy?
That would explain some of our disagreements on the quality of IP/ aiki in actual use.
2. You think his movements (in such a low pressured environment) were good...
That is very interesting to me as well and would explain even more of our contentions about movement and IP/.aiki.
3.I outlined several postural failures, very poor throw attempts (among some good ones) various empty positional movements and in a linked video a pressured loss of balance. Something that you apparently don't or can't see and are at a loss to explain, other than to explain it away.

Okay, that's fine. We disagree.
Me, I'd have just shrugged and said something like "I dunno... looks like he was just fooling around with some guys good-naturedly, so I can't tell much".

I've posted (twice) his encounter an Sanda (again with limited rules, so I'm smart enough to note the circumstances before I start critiquing anyone). It's pretty obvious that Chen Ziqiang is very crisp and precise and powerful.... but that's my opinion and of course you may see differently. Post your opinion of the competition and I'll pass it on to the right people.

BTW... and I've said this before... the Chinese tend to be pretty smart. They never show their whole hand and, since many of them had to be very cagey in order to survive the Cultural Revolution, they know how to schmooze someone who has, as they call it, "a bad heart". It's that Cultural Revolution fact, the fact that they know how to slip under the radar, that more people should pay attention to. The bucks with the biggest horns aren't the ones who eat the corn out in the middle of the field.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[stan baker]

Mike
as usual you do not know what you are talking about regarding Wan Hai Jun and Dan Harden. Go see for your self, get off the chair and experience Dan.

stan

[Mike Sigman]

Mike
as usual you do not know what you are talking about regarding Wan Hai Jun and Dan Harden. Go see for your self, get off the chair and experience Dan.

stanHeck, Stan.... I know a lot more than you think, not only about Dan in that regard, but about you. Instead of your constant sychophantic posts about Dan, why don't you enlighten us with your understanding of the topic of "internal strength"? As I understand it, Dan refers to you as part of the "senior" ICMA instructors that he talks about. I'm not even sure why someone as senior as you isn't out there knockin' 'em dead. Go for it, Stan. Show us what you know.
:disgust:

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[Tim Fong]

Well, don't forget that I just recently posted a video with Chen Ziqiang competing in actual San Shou Dao (aka Sanda) in post #18 of the 'training/sparring' thread. CZQ is in the first match starting @ 2:20. These guys are wearing armor but watch the expression on his opponent's face when Ziqiang hits. And then understand that he is still pulling his punches and techniques because the stuff is also "limited format" with strict rules. That BS-level push-hands video in the OP of this thread has zero to do with "San Shou" and should be viewed for what it is: grabass.
Mike Sigman

The ruleset in Wulin Da Hui (the linked tv show) does not allow for striking to the face. It is not the same as sanda/san shou as typically understood.
http://www.iwuf.org/news_video_1.asp?id=404

Tim

[DH]

"Fooling around good naturedly" is understandable and fair, but it doesn't diminish your performance and ability to withstand pressure. The power differential is throughout and should enhance it. If you don't want to complete a throw you stop, it doesn't account for poor attempts and balance loss.
I continue to read dialogue "around" the topic, or the posters themselves without you offering anything substantial-good or bad- constructive or even informative about the movement shown and the martial veracity.

The other video I was talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g4JbHHjvV4&feature=related

Particularly 15 seconds in. The guy does a pretty amateurish entry and throw attempt but it is "good" enough to arm drag and force a postion change to retain central equilibrium in CZQ. IME, if this is "just play," or "fooling around" then the pressure and the power differential would be such that things like this just wouldn't happen.

Anyone want to state that
a) that was even a decent throw attempt?
b) that was a powerful defense?
While there are other good things to be sure, it is this inconsistency that is perplexing in such a low level encounter.

The other clip
http://bugu.cntv.cn/sports/other/wulindahui/classpage/video/20100420/101111.shtml

From various people I have heard from in China, many of those venues are intentionally "set up" and are for entertainment purposes similar to our old boxing venues. I think it is clear the other guy was outclassed. The guy in the red doesn't even make an attempt to defend himself!! Watch him move in and drop his hands over and over. It does show CZQ using more substantial skills at speed, but against what though?
Oh well. I think there is a clear difference between him and say,-Chen Bing in a western venue.
Dan

[DH]

Heck, Stan.... I know a lot more than you think, not only about Dan in that regard, but about you. Instead of your constant sychophantic posts about Dan, why don't you enlighten us with your understanding of the topic of "internal strength"? As I understand it, Dan refers to you as part of the "senior" ICMA instructors that he talks about. I'm not even sure why someone as senior as you isn't out there knockin' 'em dead. Go for it, Stan. Show us what you know.
:disgust:
Regards,

Mike Sigman
Absolute rubbish and baiting.
More off-topic personal attacks for the umpteenth time from Mike Sigman.

Dan

[Mike Sigman]

The ruleset in Wulin Da Hui (the linked tv show) does not allow for striking to the face. It is not the same as sanda/san shou as typically understood.
http://www.iwuf.org/news_video_1.asp?id=404

TimAh........ so that limiting stricture would explain some of the disparities about why the competition did too much "wrestling", as one of my Chinese friends termed it? Thanks. I agree. That's sort of what I've tried to say about limited engagements.

I think a number of people should understand that 'competitions' take on different forms. In my experience in "push-hands", for example, I've run into a number of people who insisted that the strictures basically incorporate the aggressive BS that they did while outlawing any logical and telling replies of the same sort. ;)

People who judge restricted engagements should be smart enough to note those possibilities before starting to disparage others' skills. In the same way, I tend to watch Nage in order to see his body movements rather than hinge my whole opinion upon the limited aspects of an engagement. Often I simply say "I can't tell because the 'dive-bunny' aspect clouds what's really going on".

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[Mike Sigman]

Absolute rubbish and baiting.
More off-topic personal attacks for the umpteenth time from Mike Sigman.

DanEr, Dan.... please.... my reputation is based largely upon not only actual ability, but the small, self-important people who designated themselves my enemies and I admit that I take advantage of those people (that the martial-arts is full of). Let's you and I try to engage in civil discourse and get around all those losers. ;)

Kind Regards.

Mike

[Mike Sigman]

"Fooling around good naturedly" is understandable and fair, but it doesn't diminish your performance and ability to withstand pressure. The power differential is throughout and should enhance it. If you don't want to complete a throw you stop, it doesn't account for poor attempts and balance loss.
I continue to read dialogue "around" the topic, or the posters themselves without you offering anything substantial-good or bad- constructive or even informative about the movement shown and the martial veracity.

The other video I was talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g4JbHHjvV4&feature=related

Particularly 15 seconds in. The guy does a pretty amateurish entry and throw attempt but it is "good" enough to arm drag and force a postion change to retain central equilibrium in CZQ. IME, if this is "just play," or "fooling around" then the pressure and the power differential would be such that things like this just wouldn't happen.

Anyone want to state that
a) that was even a decent throw attempt?
b) that was a powerful defense?
While there are other good things to be sure, it is this inconsistency that is perplexing in such a low level encounter.

The other clip
http://bugu.cntv.cn/sports/other/wulindahui/classpage/video/20100420/101111.shtml

From various people I have heard from in China, many of those venues are intentionally "set up" and are for entertainment purposes similar to our old boxing venues. I think it is clear the other guy was outclassed. The guy in the red doesn't even make an attempt to defend himself!! Watch him move in and drop his hands over and over. It does show CZQ using more substantial skills at speed, but against what though?
Oh well. I think there is a clear difference between him and say,-Chen Bing in a western venue.
DanI just realized that this 'other' video has got nothing to do with the first one in the O.P. In this 'other' video, we're looking not at a 'after the workshop grabass in the basement' but an actual workshop where CZQ is trying to teach a point. Are you really suggesting that every point an instructor is trying to make should be "The Real Thing" (TM)? This is verging on insanity or at least the world of the very young. How about if I go to a DR workshop and only do "The Real Thing" in every attack? Trust me, it would disrupt the whole learning process. Jeez.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[stan baker]

Mike
I think chen ziqiang interaction is some of the best taiji out there on video. What Dan is talking about is a higher level of expertise, which I have seen and experienced personally from Wang Hai Jun and Dan.
You have not so you do not know.

stan

[DH]

I just realized that this 'other' video has got nothing to do with the first one in the O.P. In this 'other' video, we're looking not at a 'after the workshop grabass in the basement' but an actual workshop where CZQ is trying to teach a point. Are you really suggesting that every point an instructor is trying to make should be "The Real Thing" (TM)? This is verging on insanity or at least the world of the very young. How about if I go to a DR workshop and only do "The Real Thing" in every attack? Trust me, it would disrupt the whole learning process. Jeez.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
What?
In the other video, I am discussing the throw attempt and movement in various places-including- and in particular- .015 to .017

There is no meaning to the argument about real or not real. I also see no reason for all the commentary and slithered-in insults about insanity and youth, which is why I wrote this.
I continue to read dialogue "around" the topic, or of the posters themselves without you offering anything substantial-good or bad- constructive or even informative about the movement shown and the martial veracity.
Address the points- not the people.
If you're not interested in discussing the topic just say so, there is no need to pretend.
So, demo or no, play or no, why does he lose ground so often and how? Demos are far easier than real.
If you don't know or can't answer...fine.
If you have a clue but will not answer...well. That speaks for itself.

Let's you and I try to engage in civil discourse and get around all those losers
That's simply uncalled for.
You are the only person here- NOT -engaging in civil discourse. I can't address why or where the "enemy" comment is relavant in any way.
Dan

[Mike Sigman]

Mike
I think chen ziqiang interaction is some of the best taiji out there on video. What Dan is talking about is a higher level of expertise, which I have seen and experienced personally from Wang Hai Jun and Dan.
You have not so you do not know.

stanThanks for the technical comments about how things are done, Stan. See my post #26.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[Mike Sigman]

What?
In the other video, I am discussing the throw attempt and movement in various places-including- and in particular- .015 to .017 So a demonstration at a workshop in which an arbitrary opponent makes a move for demonstration purposes is part of your critique? OK, I can accept that from you.
There is no meaning to the argument about real or not real. I see.
Address the points- not the people.
If you're not interested in discussing the topic just say so, there is no need to pretend. Wait a minute... you disparage people using your subjective viewpoint and now you want objective discourse after you slammed someone at a basement grabass? I'm confused. :crazy:
So, demo or no, play or no, why does he lose ground so often and how? Demos are far easier than real. I dunno, Dan.... you tell me. If a real professional is dealing with a bunch of amateurs should he carefully handle them or break bones? Good question.
If you don't know or can't answer...fine.
If you have a clue but will not answer...well. That speaks for itself. Oh goodness... it seems like there is yet another person who is just not up to the godlike position of Dan the Reincarnated Chinese Overlord. Oh well... there are so many of us, maybe I can get lost in the crowd. ;)
That's simply uncalled for.
You are the only person here- NOT -engaging in civil discourse. I Can't address why or where the "enemy" comment is relavant in any way.
Dan Whoa.... hold on. I'm not the person who has trivialized everyone from Ueshiba, Shioda, WHJ, etc., for the last years. I think I've asked some pretty factual questions and, if you'll look, my initial comment had to do with why you denigrated a known national Chinese champion as not being up to par with you, even though the video was only about a basement grabass. Try not to throw me under the bus because I see what a number of other people have already rolled their eyes about. Try a graceful exit and pretend that people like Stan don't have a harsh effect on your reputation in re "senior Chinese IMA teachers who adore you" (for the moment). ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[Mike Sigman]

as usual you do not know what you are talking about regarding Wan Hai Jun and Dan Harden. Go see for your self, get off the chair and experience Dan.
Stan, how about starting another thread and explain what it is that WHJ and Dan are doing so that all the poor sufferers will understand? I think it would be a good thread for you to explain how you just couldn't get the Truth (tm) for so many years until you met WHJ and then, at one of WHJ's workshops, Dan attended and impressed you. (Hmmmm.... didn't Herb Rich make some telling comments about that workshop, since he was the one who hosted it?).

But any way, any enlightenment from you would be helpful. Another thread, please?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[DH]

I continue to read dialogue "around" the topic, or insulting posters themselves without you offering anything substantial-good or bad- constructive or even informative about the movement shown and the martial veracity. If the subject of actual fighting skill instead of solo demo's is past your comfort zone (I know it isn't your interest) just say so? It is for many martial artists, no harm, no foul.

So a demonstration at a workshop in which an arbitrary opponent makes a move for demonstration purposes is part of your critique? OK, I can accept that from you.
I see several very welcomed attempts at throws
What you "see" as cheap shots is not what is going on.
I will mark the added insult to my character from you yet again.

I see. Wait a minute... you disparage people using your subjective viewpoint and now you want objective discourse after you slammed someone at a basement grabass?
I'm confused. :crazy:
Yes...you are.

I dunno, Dan.... you tell me. If a real professional is dealing with a bunch of amateurs should he carefully handle them or break bones? Good question.
I see clear throw attempts made and only throw attempts. I do this with strikes and kicks ad throw attempts-all done in a hold back mode. There is occasional cuts here and there but no real harm. There are any number of grappling venues where you can see this on a regular basis. A 'real" profesional should have no trouble handling themselves in casual sparring. If you can't see that...well, it is my experience that many traditional artists don't understand that give and take either. That might explain why you can't tell the difference in what is going on in these videos of casual sparring.

Oh goodness... it seems like there is yet another person who is just not up to the godlike position of Dan the Reincarnated Chinese Overlord. Oh well... there are so many of us, maybe I can get lost in the crowd. ;)
I think if you had spent time winning and losing and tapping out and being tapped out you would not apply as much weight to winning and losing. Winning just doesn't have the type of ego attachment to it that most TMA apply. You could lose again in the very same day. Most grapplers and people who really have fought understand this. It's just another day at the office.
I think of your comments and insults toward me like the desk sergeant not understanding those who have gotten their boots dirty.

<Snip trival noise>
if you'll look, my initial comment had to do with why you denigrated a known national Chinese champion as not being up to par with you.
Par with me? I have nothing to do with it. What about my mentioning him in context with other chen guys? No comment?

<Snip trivial noise>

Mike
1. Address the points- not the people. You have not offered a single meaningful comment about movement and interchange. I am beginning to doubt you really can in these venues.
2. Why does he lose ground so often and how? Demos are far easier than real.
3. If you don't know or can't answer...fine.
4.If you have a clue but will not answer...well. That speaks for itself.

If you're not interested in discussing the topic just say so, there is no need to pretend and resorting to insulting people.

I will note the various insults and invectives you continually spew for no reason when the topic of actual fighting and use of these skills comes up.
Good luck in your training
Dan

[DH]

Stan, how about starting another thread and explain what it is that WHJ and Dan are doing so that all the poor sufferers will understand? I think it would be a good thread for you to explain how you just couldn't get the Truth (tm) for so many years until you met WHJ and then, at one of WHJ's workshops, Dan attended and impressed you. (Hmmmm.... didn't Herb Rich make some telling comments about that workshop, since he was the one who hosted it?).

But any way, any enlightenment from you would be helpful. Another thread, please?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
When Greg brought up that he trained with Tohei and answered a question..you started being sarcastic and calling him "an expert".
When David talked about his own perosonal experiences you said "well you're the expert."
When Josh apologized for something he said and wrote you- you said "No more need to wrtie-you're done"
Now Stan, who has always said he is low level, but has gone out to feel various "real experts" says something- he gets"why don't you tell me you're the expert"
I comment on movement and you attack me..as an "expert and Chinese overlord"
I've lost track of so many others...

What is the nature of this truly bizzare behaviour in attacking people left and right? None of whom claim any expertise and openly and repeatedly deny it? How does personal attacks and vitriol add to a discussion or have a place on aikiweb?

Dan

[Mike Sigman]

I continue to read dialogue "around" the topic, Dan, the topic I pointed to was you tearing down, yet again for the umpteenth time, some martial artist as someone who doesn't understand the "Real Stuff" (tm) as well as you do. Let's don't try to pretend that this was a serious appraisal on your part of a basement grabass push-hands fest and that I'm supposed to also pretend that it meant anything. It didn't. The point was your gratuitous tear-down of yet one more martial-artist, for whatever reason you constantly do it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[Mike Sigman]

What is the nature of this truly bizzare behaviour in attacking people left and right? Hmmmmm... here's what Stan said, Dan:What Dan is talking about is a higher level of expertise, which I have seen and experienced personally from Wang Hai Jun and Dan. I just invited him to explain his views on this subtle expertise on another thread. Why don't you join him?

One of the repeated nonsensical comments you see on martial-arts forums is someone with limited skills trying to tell others how exalted (or horrible) someone else's skills are. If Stan, after all these years, is as "low level" as you seem to unquestionably agree with, how is he in a position (after so many years and so many teachers) in a position to accurately say who is and who isn't any good? Obviously he can't be very astute if he's got all those years behind him and no real expertise to show for it, right?

I've even heard amateurs at WHJ workshops wonder aloud at how Stan goes around "correcting" people while WHJ is in another part of the room doing corrections when Stan obviously has never really practiced seriously. Sounds like a topic worth a discussion. On another thread or another forum. He obviously thinks you're good, BTW.... good for you.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[DH]

Dan, the topic I pointed to was you tearing down, yet again for the umpteenth time, some martial artist as someone who doesn't understand the "Real Stuff" (tm) as well as you do.
As well as me? Site? Again what about Chen Bing? Still no answer?
Let's don't try to pretend that this was a serious appraisal on your part of a basement grabass push-hands fest and that I'm supposed to also pretend that it meant anything. It didn't. The point was your gratuitous tear-down of yet one more martial-artist, for whatever reason you constantly do it.

It was a serious apprasial and questioning that you obviously cannot answer-hence your picking that entertainment show with the way out of balance match up as a defence.
That you cannot see that either...well....
As for discussions-you really have a very selective memory, pick some, while ignoring many others that have been discussed favorably here. It's hard to argue with a moving target with no substantial claim or interest in the thread.
I take it you really can't respond intelligently to the thread -hence the personal attacks on Stan. Noted that you ignored all the others you attacked a few days back on another thread. Anyone that gets in your sites and you have at em on a personal level.
What a way to live.
Dan

[Mike Sigman]

It was a serious apprasial May I quote you?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[DH]

For those capable grapplers calling me and writing me that they see the same things I do in those vids-including the obviously overmatched one from China that Mike is all ga ga over where the kid is litterally throwing himself at CZQ with his hands down... what good does it do to stay quiet?
At least there are those who actually have grappled and get this stuff in all its stages from demo to sparring to full-on, that they can be a voice of reason in the Traditional Martial Arts world.

Dan

[Mike Sigman]

For those capable grapplers calling me and writing me that they see the same things I do in those vids-including the obviously overmatched one from China that Mike is all ga ga over where the kid is litterally throwing himself at CZQ with his hands down... what good does it do to stay quiet?
At least there are those who actually have grappled and get this stuff in all its stages from demo to sparring to full-on, that they can be a voice of reason in the Traditional Martial Arts world.
Omigod... I'm defeated again by the Dan Ghost Peanut Gallery of Supporters who are all calling and emailing Dan on the side. It's an impossible battle. Ask just a few of them to write their observations (including I.S. skills, which undoubtedly the "Strong Men" have aplenty) out in the public so we can enjoy their expert insights and learn from their experiences.

Regards,

Mike "Ghost Fighter" Sigman

[DH]

Omigod... I'm defeated again by the Dan Ghost Peanut Gallery of Supporters who are all calling and emailing Dan on the side. It's an impossible battle. Ask just a few of them to write their observations (including I.S. skills, which undoubtedly the "Strong Men" have aplenty) out in the public so we can enjoy their expert insights and learn from their experiences.

Regards,

Mike "Ghost Fighter" Sigman
Supporters? Hardly. And why would that have to be? You put the video up and people watched it. Why is a discussion among people who happen to disagree with you have to mean ugly things about....them? Three of these guys I only know from here.

Is that how it works with you? Anyone who disagrees with you is an enemy (like you stated in a post) and means they're bad?
How curious.
Dan

[stan baker]

Mike
I can correct taiji postures quite well, come by and I will correct yours.
I am getting better instruction and practicing taiji more seriously then
you are.

stan

[AllanF]

FWIW: Chen Ziqiang is pronounced Chen dzi chee-ang ('Chee' of cheese and 'ang' as in hang).

[akiy]

Thread closed due to obvious reasons.

-- Jun