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Aikidonewbie
04-23-2010, 05:26 PM
Seems like a lot of time in MMA, when a fighter has another fighter's back on the ground,he could apply the ikkyo pin and totally immobilize his opponent. But so far, I haven't seen this. Also the Nikkyo or Sankyo pin could also be applied. Are these locks just to cumbersome to work in a real fight?

ChrisHein
04-23-2010, 06:29 PM
Well Daniel, we are onto some interesting ground here.

First, why would you use an MMA pin over an Aikido pin? In a situation like MMA, body to body pins (mount, side mount, north south, rear mount etc.) work better. This is because they allow you to hold your opponent with the whole of your body. This allows you to directly (as opposed to indirectly; through an arm) use your body weight, structure, and force on your attackers body. This will make him tire, making his breathing irregular, and cause him to use muscular force to escape your hold, while you essentially rest your body weight on him.

Second, why would you apply an Aikido pin? In a non-sport situation you may have to look for other attackers, assess the terrain, call for help, make a quick escape, draw a weapon etc. Pins like the Ikkyo, Sankyo, or Nikyo pin allow for this. However in a sport context these things are not necessary. So Aikido style pins have unnecessary specialization in MMA.

In armed situations it's very important to control your opponents weapon hand directly, however in unarmed situations this can be done in a much less direct way. Making direct arm control unnecessary in MMA.

In situations where you may need to flee quickly (like his buddy coming to kick you in the head) Aikido style pins work great. There is very little of your body for your opponent to hold in order to slow your escape. In MMA this is unnecessary, you simply hold your opponent until the time elapses, the ref makes you get up, or your opponent quits.

MMA pins are more secure then Aikido pins, but at a cost: lack of good visibility, hard to escape, lack weapon hand control, lack the ability to easily draw your weapon etc. Aikido pins are better non-sport pins, but are not as strong in a controlled environment like sport.

Kevin Leavitt
04-23-2010, 06:33 PM
I'm a "MMA" guy..so this is my opinion...and someone else might have a different experience.

Couple of different reasons I think you don't see them.

1. They pretty much are weapon based pins. They work decently when you are grappling over weapons, but not so much when you don't have the weapon to fight over.

2. MMA is about submission. So, what causes immobilization and pain is "good enough" so why not keep things simple and efficient and when your match?

Variations of them work, but again, position before submission and in MMA or Grappling arts you are concerned with a different strategy of dominance...again...when you don't have weapons involved..it affect the strategy alot.

I use a couple of different locks and I have used sankyo to control, but it doesn't do much to help you improve your position, so there are many other things that work better in a MMA/grappling style match.

When you look at the kumura, it is sankyo like (sort of), when you look at omaplata it is ikkyo like, albeit with the leg. When you look at a key lock it is shionage like....when you add a knife in the hand...the key lock looks very, very familar!

Don't get caught up in the "style" of the pin...but look at the principles that are employed in various ranges, assumptions, rules etc and see how they are similar...you'd be suprised at how much similiarity there is at the principle level.

I don't think it is as simple as "will they work or not work in a real fight". There are alot of variables and things that need to be considered.

Kevin Leavitt
04-23-2010, 06:35 PM
lol...and what Chris said above as well.

Kevin Leavitt
04-23-2010, 06:38 PM
Ikkyo is also pretty much a "facedown" pin. You aren't gonna see this in MMA simply because it leaves too much for risk, it is hard to get a tap out, and why pin the guy with a risky pin that he probably has enough skill to avoid anyway? Also, heck if I am on the guy's back, I'm gonna get that rear mount for better control!

Now, put a knife in my hand...AND the risk that he might have a buddy and it changes stuff quite a bit.

Michael Varin
04-23-2010, 09:23 PM
To piggy-back on what Chris and Kevin were saying, it is critically important to understand that the men who developed traditional Japanese martial arts were concerned with weapons, multiple attackers, and surprise. There tactics and techniques were designed to answer these problems.

Face down pins do offer less control of the body, and in my experience they are more difficult to achieve, but they allow you to control one arm and position the opponent's body between you and his other arm. If he has another weapon, or a hidden weapon you didn't initially see, he has to come across his body to hurt you. This gives you time to do what is necessary to further subdue him.

Face up pins and rear mount don't offer that protection. Additionally, if you are armed, these pins will place you in greater danger of having your weapons grabbed by your opponent.

There are some techniques that make great sense in a one-on-one, empty-handed, controlled environment that address the realities of a more open environment.

On the other hand, there are some techniques that aren't necessary for one-on-one, empty-hand, and don't properly take advantages of the "short cuts" that are available in that environment.

It's hard to put the square peg in the round hole.

ChrisHein
04-24-2010, 03:15 PM
Nice posts Kevin and Michael!

Michael and I talk about these things a lot, so I'm very familiar with what he is saying. However I would like to point out two very important things that he just said:

1) Properly take advantage of the "short cuts".
This is KEY. When fighting safety and efficiency are of the upmost importance. And the two are often mutually exclusive. For example, in an unarmed fight, a bear hug is more then safe enough. Hardly anyone can make good power from the confines of the bear hug empty handed. However with a bladed weapon, almost anyone could kill an attacker holding them in a bear hug. Bear hugs are not safe in bladed situations. However bear hugs are secure, and quick to put on, in other words efficient. In a weapon engagement it's not safe enough, but in an unarmed engagement it's a great "short cut" (as compared to many of the Japanese holding methods).

2) It's hard to put a square peg in a round hole.
One must understand the context of the martial art they are studying. Some things were designed to be used in weapons engagements, and some things were designed to be used empty handed. Use them in their proper context, and they will be successful, using them out of context can be embarrassing, or worse, deadly.

To add one more thing. We must, as Aikido students, find ways to challenge our practice. We must find a way to train Aikido with active resistance! So it's not good enough that we are telling you these things, you must find the truth of them for yourself.

Kevin Leavitt
04-24-2010, 07:04 PM
Thursday night me and a friend were working through kaiten nage and I was discussing the proper context on Katien Nage and how I felt the ukemi should be taken. From a chest level Atemi, when Nage would block and start the katien nage, I as uke believe that it is appropriate to change levels from a high technigue to a low technique such as a double or single leg takedown.

If nage is maintaining proper structure and presence, then he is in position to throw a knee to my head as I come toward his legs, sensing this presence of the knee, I then realize that this is not smart and the only "smart" thing to do is to roll out forward...if I resist backwards, then I am going to be pulled down on my back, which is a bad thing too.

Hence, in the end, I end up taking the same ukemi, proper as demonstrated by most "good" folks doing ukemi. However, the context of what I am doing through out the encounter is not simply "dead" or "doing a forward roll".

I am "alive" and actively engaging nage as uke throughout the process. It gives nage a reason and context for the technique, and I think makes it actually make sense and work.

Context is important, I think many times we simply take ukemi, which while maybe not bad ukemi, we simply may not see all the context in what is going on or could go on in the situation.

RED
04-26-2010, 10:32 AM
MMA is a sport. If the technique has no tactical advantage in a ring within the regulations and assumptions that go along with competitive fighting, then that technique is a waste of time and a risk.

However, just because an Aikido technique is not good for competitive sports it is not any reason to assume the technique is useless. I think in these days a lot of people judge the worth of a martial art by whether or not you can use it in the octagon! This pains me.
I don't disqualify BJJ by saying "pff, it isn't street effective, because an officer would get stabbed, over taken and destroy his knee caps on the cement if he tried to shoot out the legs of a drug dealer...especially if the drug dealer had five of his buddies with him!" That statement would be unfair to BJJ, because BJJ works perfectly fine in the setting it was designed for.. as much as standing jujitsu works just fine for the setting it was designed to be performed in.

Russell Davis
07-05-2010, 08:00 PM
Hi Kevin some interesting stuff here, Im not fully up to scratch with the aiki terminology but fairly up to speed with the MMA
From my own point of view which is not a sporting one, I would rarely attempt a pin of any kind, Im too small for a start, and his buddies are likely close by, my solution is to drop them with a blow to the neck or chest area for example, leaving me free to run away, or take a cab home, If your physically able to wrestle with a bigger stronger guy who aint out of his head on meth, with a switchblade in his back pocket, then by all means go for it if it works for you.
I just like to get the job done in the min of time with max effect.
great post keep it coming.

Russell Davis
07-30-2010, 05:39 AM
If you want to pin someone you can do it standing up, while they are on the ground, If they are in a prone position, stand on his forearm. it hurts like hell on concrete, vary pain level by moving your weight. Similar pin can be done on the leg, at the Ankle, knee, or shin. try it on the mat see what you think! it avoids a ground situation, which is bad if there are more than one to worry about.

Kevin Leavitt
07-30-2010, 11:05 PM
Russell, you bring up some good points for sure. Situation definitely dictates what is appropriate and what is not. I agree, if I was faced with several assailants or the potential is there, then I am probably going to result to things that are a little more brutal and that will quickly lead to the assailant inoperable to fight with as little of investment as possible.

Ikkyo pin requires a great deal of investment. However, think back to the era that it came from. You might be dealing with multiple opponents that were armed, dangerous and skilled. Facing a skilled swordsman would require, IMO, a great deal of investment of yourself in order to keep him from hurting you. Not saying that a complete ikkyo to the pin is the answer, but the UNDERSTANDING of the dynamics of ikkyo, is VERY important.

I can tell you from my Combatives experience that Ikkyo is an important concept to understand. That is, entering against a skilled attacker that is armed. You must be able to enter (irimi) and the deal with the weapon. Ikkyo IMO is a very important aspect.

That said, I am not saying that Ikkyo as a technique needs to be followed to the letter as in the way we practice it in Kata, but the understanding of the basic concept and spectrum of Ikkyo.

I think alot of aikido gets taken to parochial and too literally. again, IMO, it is the understanding of the dynamics of principle that is what is important.

Where you stop it on the spectrum is dictated by your experience and the dynamics of the situation in which you are involved.

It may end with you throwing a chair or a pipe wrench at the guy, or attacking him with a bat or stick or it may actually end up all the way on the ground with you grappling over the weapon and immobilizing him.

Buck
07-31-2010, 09:26 AM
MMA is a sport. If the technique has no tactical advantage in a ring within the regulations and assumptions that go along with competitive fighting, then that technique is a waste of time and a risk.

However, just because an Aikido technique is not good for competitive sports it is not any reason to assume the technique is useless. I think in these days a lot of people judge the worth of a martial art by whether or not you can use it in the octagon! This pains me.
I don't disqualify BJJ by saying "pff, it isn't street effective, because an officer would get stabbed, over taken and destroy his knee caps on the cement if he tried to shoot out the legs of a drug dealer...especially if the drug dealer had five of his buddies with him!" That statement would be unfair to BJJ, because BJJ works perfectly fine in the setting it was designed for.. as much as standing jujitsu works just fine for the setting it was designed to be performed in.

Very well said, and humbled by the how well said. I wish I could get my thoughts in words down as well. I completely agree.

My 2 cents,I respect MMA, and don't devalue it. But it really is a matter of applying the right tool to the job, in accordance to what profession your in. MMA is effective but it isn't fit every situation, under every circumstance. Nor does Aikido. There are similarities in principles that can cross over. MMA means Mixed Marital Arts right? Like Maggie pointed it is about setting and design.

I think what happens that raises such questions we are discussing is the lack of background information on the part of MMA. This is not attacking MMA, but rather noting an aspect of MMA culture; it doesn't include background cross training information.

That is why I like Kevin's posts. He provides such information and bridges that gap, by stating, "Ikkyo pin requires a great deal of investment. However, think back to the era that it came from, and UNDERSTANDING of the dynamics of ikkyo, is VERY important."

Point being, Maggie makes a very insightful and good point, and so does Kevin. These points are not widely known through out the MMA community, as far as I know. Maggie's and Kevin's points combined is something I think would be very beneficial to the MMA culture of many in terms of these types of discussion questions.

I am sure others make just as good points in this regard, I apologize if I over-looked them in the is post.

Demetrio Cereijo
07-31-2010, 10:10 AM
MMA means Mixed Marital Arts right?

I hope not.

Michael Hackett
07-31-2010, 02:36 PM
Maggie,

It would be a rare circumstance for a cop to perform a shooting-type takedown, and exactly because of the reasons you cite. We really prefer to remain on our feet and use the cool tools we are issued; baton, OC spray, TASER. An old joke is that they are "like birth control pills - they take the worry out of being close."

Where grappling/BJJ plays a role is when the officer loses his feet for whatever reason. It is superior to have a ground game when you need it.

A variation of ikkyo is taught, at least out here in California, as a "single arm takedown" in the academies. It works usually, but isn't a pretty as on the mat, and primarily because the officers don't get anything near enough repetitions in training to make it really effective. Most simply rely on their own sobriety, strength and size to make it work.

I suspect that an ikkyo in a cagefight would look very similar to the single arm takedown technique.

Hellis
07-31-2010, 03:29 PM
Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote:
MMA means Mixed Marital Arts right?

They don't seem to appreciate this where I train :- (
Rik Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Kevin Leavitt
07-31-2010, 05:37 PM
Buck wrote:

Point being, Maggie makes a very insightful and good point, and so does Kevin. These points are not widely known through out the MMA community, as far as I know. Maggie's and Kevin's points combined is something I think would be very beneficial to the MMA culture of many in terms of these types of discussion questions.


I find it goes both ways really. Aikidoka can learn alot from MMA. I know I did. It saved me years of wasted time. Years of experience gained in a few short months of training to understand the dynamics and issues that arise from non-compliance, combat speed, pressure, and conditioning my mind how to work in that environment. I also learned the alot about my triggers, defaults, and what will and won't work. Learned alot about working from positions of failure and the principle of Kaeshiwaza too!

I hear Aikidoka talk alot about MMA. Most have never set foot inside an MMA schoool or dojo. The conversations go one or two ways.

1. "I understand the importance of MMA, but I just don't (insert reason here). (Have the time, feel comfortable, like the culture etc.)

2. "MMA has rules and it is not realistic in a real fight."

In my BJJ or MMA schools, I have never heard anyone there even discuss Aikido or other martial arts in terms of defining or justifiying their own trainng regime.

Why is that?

1. They are comfortable with what they are studying and understand WHY and WHAT they are doing as well as "most" of the limitations.

2. The culture of MMA is fairly one of OPENNESS. That is, if they see a gap or weakness they seek out the expert or system that will fill that gap. That is the whole concept of the "MIXED" in MMA.

That said, we all know that MMA typically focuses on training for the cage or street, and that BJJ tends to focus heavily on tournament rules alot like judo. Lets face it, it is fun and most go to these schools with a specific purpose/endstate in mind.

Isn't that why we all picked Aikido? that is, we liked the philosophy/structure/feel/or what ever keeps you doing it?

However, if you find a good instructor, which is rare I'll admit, you will find someone that can run the gamut from ring, to tournament, to street with no issues and show you how to manage all situations rules, no rules, weapons etc.

Surprisingly, when you look at the basic principles...regardless of rules, no rules, or weapons....it really is just variations on a theme.

There are only so many ways to submit someone, knock them out, or dominate them.

Once you begin to understand this...thing IMO become a lot clearer. You stop seeing the differences in training paradigms and you start assessing and evaluating them for what they can offer you to solve areas of weakness or problems.

Of course there are only so many hours in the day! LOL!

Buck
07-31-2010, 08:36 PM
I have harped on this way too much in another thread but it does bear weight here, Ikkyo comes from feudal jujitsu that was battlefield tested. Therefore, we know that it has viable application. It is a proven technique. A proven technique that was created, applied and dictated under the feudal battlefield or other feudal situations. Which Maggie pointed out and I will reiterate it was not designed for modern cage fighting. Yet, the principles and concept applied to the waza that developed on the feudal battlefield can apply today in the cage, on the street, etc.

We may no longer have a use for the original waza under the original perimeters of feudal combat; the sword is long gone as the primer battlefield weapon of Japan. But, we can use that waza and model it and adapt it to conditions that will fit in our modern world. In some circumstances we transfer the body of the waza alter it to fit those needs. In other cases, it is the principles of the waza we transfer only to fit other needs.

With that said, yes, Ikkyo pin is applicable to MMA. Will it be recognizable? Maybe depending on how well it is practiced and executed in its original context. But again Ikkyo isn't designed for cage fighting and has a different dynamic. If principles are applied they may not be as readily recognizable, or go undetected.

The nature of the question itself demonstrates a possible growing interest and acceptance of Aikido as a viable resource for MMA practitioners.

RED
07-31-2010, 11:14 PM
I first want to say that I respect the competitive arts. I like to watch a good fight. I like sportsmanship.
I think my only point on the matter is that competition effectiveness does not necessarily equate martial effectiveness. ..and vise verse at times. There is much that Aikido trains in that is illegal in a ring, and much that MMA train in, or neglect to train in, that would be fatal in other settings.

Example:
Many schools are competitive Karate do not teach you to block the face. Why? Because hitting the face is illegal in competition, so why bother teaching you to guard your mug? There is actually an advantage in not guarding your face in that instance, because an illegal punch to the face will result in your opponent's disqualification and dismissal making you the winner by fowl.

I've said it before,
if all I wanted out of my martial training was to win a boxing match, I believe I'd learn how to box.
If all I wanted out of my martial training was to defeating an attacker, I might buy a gun.

And if all I want out of my martial training is to study Budo, I might just reside myself to Aikido, without being seduced by titles, trophies or bragging rights.
I just don't see the place for these things in a Budo...I see the sincere and rightful place in a boxing ring or MMA cage, but not in a Budo. Aikido shouldn't have any summit to mark "the best" or the "champion", in my opinion. I mean, once you hit the summit the only place to go is down hill. A competitive art can work that way and retain its soul, because its soul is in sportsmanship. So therefore the comparative question is "Where is Aikido's soul?"
I've answered that for myself, and in my answer there wasn't any of my training I could justify spending on figuring out how to pin Tito Ortiz in an Ikkyo.

Kevin Leavitt
07-31-2010, 11:47 PM
All very good points Maggie. I agree.

In my experiences though, competition does play an important part in our lives, like it or not. The key is to keep thing in perspective and not get lost in it.

As a life long Budoka and a career military guy, I have seen what happens when we move away from competition as a "tool". I have also seen the bad that happens when we get too focused on it as well.

Lots of innovation and testing, and refinement goes on in Competitive arts and there importance should not be discounted.

I do agree with your position though. It is not necessarily something that everyone needs or seeks, and a solid practice of aikido without competition suits the needs of many of us out there.

Thanks for your continued posting!

Buck
08-01-2010, 02:45 AM
Now, here is the rub. The question is "Would the Ikkyo pin work in MMA?" The answer is, practice it with great dedication and effort. Then go into a MMA fight and determine for yourself if it works. That is the practical approach that will fully answer the question.

Kevin Leavitt
08-01-2010, 03:40 PM
There have been enough fights out there that if it was effective that chances are we would have seen it by now and used commonly.

The question and entertaining this any further really becomes an intellectual exercise of the useless type. Crudely referred to as mental masturbation. Crude, but I think it captures the essence of this pondered question at this point, IMO.

Of course it will "work". Where is Mary right now to chime in with the Circus Ponies when we need her! :)

The point is that it is not seen in MMA tournaments or competitions. I personally have not seen it, and I am betting we never will. I will refer to my points made in Post #3 as to why.

However, we do see some common themes in pins or submissions in MMA comps. Rear Naked Choke, Arm Bar, Triangle Choke, Omaplata, Kumura etc.

Why is it that we see those things commonly, yet there are other things we don't see? Why is it that we don't see Ikkyo?

I'd love to see someone go into the ring with the intent on winning and try that pin within the parameters of aikido practice.

Again, the principles are the same in MMA as to why the mechanics and physics work, however, the timing, situation, etc dictates as to why you'll probably never see that as a common submission (again I refer to Post #3).

If you spend some time actually doing MMA stuff it all starts to become much clearer and from my experiences you start to have "aha" moments with respect to your aikido practice!

Buck
08-01-2010, 06:05 PM
Kevin, sincerely, you bring up good points that always bring the best out of a conversation. Here are my thoughts based on your insightful thoughts and opinions.


The point is that it is not seen in MMA tournaments or competitions. I personally have not seen it, and I am betting we never will. I will refer to my points made in Post #3 as to why.

However, we do see some common themes in pins or submissions in MMA comps. Rear Naked Choke, Arm Bar, Triangle Choke, Omaplata, Kumura etc.

Why is it that we see those things commonly, yet there are other things we don't see? Why is it that we don't see Ikkyo?

It is for the intent of the betterment of those seeking information in terms of Aikido: knowing where wazas come from (history) is helpful. It is my understanding BJJ tools noted are parented from Judo nawaza, e.g. chokes, arm bars, "Kumura." I would think as MMA or BJJ it is good to know your history, right? Knowing history can answer allot of questions, providing a greater understanding appreciation, mechanics, and stuff leading to better performance.

I'd love to see someone go into the ring with the intent on winning and try that pin within the parameters of aikido practice.

Here also is the application of the right tool for the right job. I think many people don't see or apply this perspective often to questions like the that of this thread. I have found in Aikido practice we don't use one single waza for every attack scenario

Again, the principles are the same in MMA as to why the mechanics and physics work, however, the timing, situation, etc dictates as to why you'll probably never see that as a common submission (again I refer to Post #3).

I agree, different animal when it come to cage fighting. Cage fighting is a contest, it is not interchangeable with the street. Though like other contest martial arts it is applicable to street situations. Aikido's parent, jujitsu was not created or designed for a contest. I think this is a core concept to understanding Aikido, at least it was for me. Therefore it may be helpful to others.

If you spend some time actually doing MMA stuff it all starts to become much clearer and from my experiences you start to have "aha" moments with respect to your aikido practice!

Good point, Kevin. And that parallels with understanding where Aikido techniques are modified form feudal combat techniques. For me that is what gave me those Gestalt type moments. I think it is hard to learn or limiting when its history isn't also taught with it.

Kevin Leavitt
08-01-2010, 07:25 PM
Buck wrote:

It is for the intent of the betterment of those seeking information in terms of Aikido: knowing where wazas come from (history) is helpful. It is my understanding BJJ tools noted are parented from Judo nawaza, e.g. chokes, arm bars, "Kumura." I would think as MMA or BJJ it is good to know your history, right? Knowing history can answer allot of questions, providing a greater understanding appreciation, mechanics, and stuff leading to better performance.


Sure, but you have to make sure you have the Etiology and the context/perspective correct too.

For example, saying BJJ came from Judo can be misleading really. That is, if you compare BJJ to what is commonly practiced as Judo today.

One might argue that BJJ and Judo were derived from the same source, that is, Kano Jiu Jitsu, later known as judo. Kano Jiu Jitsu/Judo apparently from my readings of history and interviews was much different than what is practiced today in Judo.

The fact is, that Both BJJ and Judo were derived from Koryu Jiu Jitsu systems that were rooted in battlefield tactics. There are many ranges of combat and the grappling range is but one.

However that said, I am not sure I completely understand what your point is about bring this up though. You might need to clarify this so I understand. It really doesn't answer what you quoted from me which is "Why is it that you don't see Ikkyo?"

I'll assume it deal with the importance of understanding history and original context of the meaning of why we do certain things.

Omaplata, Kumura, Triangle Choke (also known as Sankaku (sic), are nothing new...they can be found in all ancient text of Jiu Jitsu. they work in a grappling range of fighting, and they are important to understand and know if you are concerned about fighting period.

I'll again refer to my Post #3 for reasons concerning ikkyo. It has a context, yes and application. It does not fit the bill for MMA application, so yes, I agree with your statement. "right tool for right job."

I agree, different animal when it come to cage fighting. Cage fighting is a contest, it is not interchangeable with the street. Though like other contest martial arts it is applicable to street situations. Aikido's parent, jujitsu was not created or designed for a contest. I think this is a core concept to understanding Aikido, at least it was for me. Therefore it may be helpful to others.

Well I don't necessarily agree with this statement. "interchangeable to the street". I don't really know what interchangeable means in this context, but applicability to the street YES it does. There is much in MMA that transfers directly to the street. We just need to understand, like in any martial practice what its limitations are.

Do you really think that guys like Tito Ortiz, Bas Rutten, Randy Couture can't handle themselves on the street? (Minus getting trampled by a hear of wild circus ponies...which is possible). :)

I am betting they would fair as well as the next guy or better given even odds and same access and equal knowledge and OODA loop.

OODA is actually a prime example of why MMA type training is so applicable. These guys practice it daily and have an intimate understanding of the importance of it and have the experience on how to stay ahead of it. This alone is probably the most important aspect outside of conditioning in a fight. Techniques and skills, IMO take a back seat to these two things always..that is, OODA and Conditioning.

Do some reading on John Boyd and dog fighitng with planes and it begins to make sense.

I and many others have spent a great deal of time studying the evolution of the UFC from #1 to present. We have looked at great detail why the early fights were won and the evolution of why the art changed and has evolved and will continue to evolve. Why did Jiu Jitsu reign so unanimously in the early days, yet today, you can beat the Jiu Jitsu strategy with ground in pound and be a intermediate skilled BJJer? It has to do with an understanding of how to fight and conditioning.

What Sylvia vs Munson fight in UFC #65 I think, Sylvia beat Munson a superior fighter because he learned how to defeat his game...he was able to stay ahead of the OODA process and developed a strategy which caused Munson to expend 3 units of energy for every 1 unit of his.

A digression, but it shows the overall importance of Timing, positioning, strategy, and conditioning. Heck even the Book of Five Rings covers this when Musashi met his opponent on the beach with the sun behind his back! What was more important? Ikkyo or OODA in this situation?

Good point, Kevin. And that parallels with understanding where Aikido techniques are modified form feudal combat techniques. For me that is what gave me those Gestalt type moments. I think it is hard to learn or limiting when its history isn't also taught with it.


I don't disagree that history is important. However, it has it's limits as to what it can provide us in ways of experiences. Heck anyone can read history and become an expert on the keyboard if they read enough, visualize, and use their imaginations.

To me, the intellectual community in Martial Arts is kinda like a Economics Professor with Tenure that can talk all day long about the theories of what made Bill Gates successful and how the economy works after the fact, yet he himself has never actually gone out and done that.

Sure there is a place for that, but thank god we have guys like Bill Gates that said to hell with Academia and simply went out and rolled up his shirt sleeves and actually played with crap and learned how to do something with it!

MA IMO works the same way. We have alot of folks that read about it, talk about it, and pursue it as an intellectual exercise and I think the historical context is relied upon way too heavily as a frame of reference..but I get it, if that is all one has to fall back on for experience, it is what you have.

Skunk works is important.

As far as Aikido Techniques being modified from feudal techniques...Not sure I agree with that either.

Aikido is taught from a philosophical and principle contextual base. O'Sensei used the elements out Jiu Jitsu and specifically DRAJJ to teach some very specific concepts IMO.

If taught properly, there is no techniques to modify whatsoever. They would be the same if done correctly.

IMO, the problem is that alot of folks simply have a sophomoric understanding of what Aikido is. That is...A fighting system that is based on a philosophical and ethical set of beliefs...AKA DOGMA or Fundamentalism.

That leads, IMO, to the paradigm that techniques were modified in order to allow us to be more ethical, less ballistic, or resolve conflict what may be a more "moral" way.

I think this is complete and utter delusional fantasy, garbage, and could possibly get someone hurt or killed with this way of thinking.

No, I think done properly and efficiently all "good" jiu jitsu is the same in the end and there is no need to modify any technique at all when you understand the basic fundamental principles.

We can debate about Pedagogy all day long. That is, what is the best way to practice to get there, but that is a different discussion than this one.

I think Dan Harden, Mike Sigman, and especially Mark Murray are very good at discussing this subject concerning Aiki and Aikido.

Thanks Buck for the dialogue.

gates
01-21-2011, 07:07 AM
There is a You-Tube video, in which Bas Rutten, one of the top ex-MMA guys explains why Aikido is not used/seen in MMA. He is quite adamant that "their style would need to change", which is really quite ridiculous when you think about it. How MMA developed from the early days where fighters all came from different backgrounds, they all had to change their styles. (I happen to quite like Bas, I think he is a brute, but actually well hearted)

On his DVD entitled "Lethal Defense Video" or something like that.
It worthy to note that he demonstrates, both an ikkyo (more force than finesse), and a nikkyo as well as talking about a lot of martial principles which a good Aikido instructor will teach. In the Ikkyo, he adds kicks to the face and dropping your knee over the top to break/dislocate the elbow.

I have to say that I far as I am aware the actual pins on the ground are therapeutic in nature and not intended to be used in a martial encounter, although can be applied as effective pins in their own right.

I'd say the martial aspect of ikkyo is to get their body turned away from you and their head down, so if necessary you can apply exactly the type of atemi Bas revels in explaining. Also I'd say ikkyo is a gateway technique leading to a whole host of possibilities.

You can't put a square peg in a round hole
Unless the hole is big enough, or the peg small enough.

Tony Wagstaffe
01-21-2011, 08:58 AM
Adapt.... all techniques work..... it's where you apply them....:straightf

Michael Varin
01-22-2011, 01:50 AM
You can't put a square peg in a round hole
Unless the hole is big enough, or the peg small enough.
True...

But you still won't have a good fit.

tlk52
01-24-2011, 10:31 AM
my understanding is that the ikkyo pin is 1) a position where nage could attack/break the elbow, 2) to access your own weapon while controlling the elbow, and 3) a place where, in keiko, nage can test their kokyu and stability.

I don't think that the Ikkyo pin is designed to hold someone immobile but without injury for long periods of time.

DonMagee
01-25-2011, 07:05 AM
Ron Merrill
for www.insidefighting.com

Tales from the MMA Crypt is a brand new feature here on InsideFighting.com. We will chronicle the stories of gritty, behind the scenes fight action. We will take you to where the cameras couldn’t go. And above all else, we will strive to get to the heart of the story by interviewing participants and witnesses whenever possible.

Our second installment begins with a man who proved that career success could become a double edged sword, if indeed you were in the right career; or in his case, the wrong career. For every cheer that he received for defeating an opponent, he most certainly received “boos” from the fans of the same. While he collected riches for his accomplishments within the ring, he collected a handful of enemies outside of it. It’s ironic, actually. And that’s why it earns a spot amongst InsideFighting’s Tales From The MMA Crypt.

Bas Rutten vs. Bouncers
Bas Rutten set out to have a good time at Sweden’s Spy Bar one night back in 1998. Unfortunately for Bas, the employees of the Spy Bar weren’t big fans of his. “I was going to the Spy Bar in Sweden. When I walked in, the bouncers called me by my first name and then I knew that something was going to happen,” Bas relates. No stranger to recognition, Bas decided to stay at the Stockholm hotspot and dance. After all, he had arrived with friends and was looking to have a good time. “Then I started to jump around Bas Rutten style which is just jumping and dancing to the music. Two bouncers came to me and asked me if I could come with them. I did and they put me in this fire escape room. There, one of them tells me that I have to leave. I said, ‘okay, can you guys get my friend and tell him that I am out because he is also from Holland and doesn’t know where to go here?”

Apparently looking for trouble, but not seeming to elicit the desired response from Bas' compliant tone, they resorted to more brutal tactics in order to bait Bas Rutten into fight. “That’s where one of the two put a finger in my eye. I told him to stop, and that there was no reason to be aggressive. Then he put his finger in my other eye.” Eye gouging is certainly beyond the realm of appropriate conduct for even The Spy Bar's notoriously rough bouncers. With his back literally against the wall, and his personal safety in harm’s way, Bas reacted as instinct had taught him. “I KO’d the guy. Then the little guy jumped on me. They all had these little microphones in their ears. In no time there where three more.”

Out-numbered by the arrival of reinforcements, the odds shifted from favoring the professional fighter to placing him in serious jeopardy. Rutten quickly learned that superior numbers would be the least of his concerns, however, as his aggressors began to arm themselves. “I was just fighting to get them away from me. Broomsticks came out and they started to hit me with them while I was busy hitting them. It was ugly.”

Seeing that the situation had become a hopeless struggle for survival, Rutten realized that his only way out was to make a quick escape. “I was trying to make it downstairs and get the hell out of there. Once I was downstairs I found the door, and what do you know, it was closed.” Pinned between a locked door and a posse of sadistic bouncers, Rutten came to a morbid conclusion; this had become life or death. “I turned around and I thought, ‘OK, now I am going to hit you fucking guys in the throat and try to take you out,’ since there was no other option.”

As the world champion mixed martial artist prepared himself for the fight of his life, the scene took a dramatic and humorous turn. “I looked at them and they took a few steps back. ‘All right,’ I thought. They can see in my eyes that I really mean business now, and they are scared! I was wrong. Behind me was the whole police force waiting outside.”

Just as his notoriety had brought on the night’s conundrums, Bas’ fame would see him clear of them. Spending the night in a Swedish jail might not have been the planned after-hours activity for that evening, but it certainly beat the alternative. When Bas Rutten’s friends found him two days later, he was his typical, jovial self. He had even been granted privileges above and beyond those of his fellow inmates. “I was eating cookies and drinking coffee and tea while I was watching TV In my cell!”

The following is an excerpt from a Swedish newspaper regarding the incident:

A Really Rotten Fighter
The three security guards stood no chance whatsoever against the deadly professional fighter. “We were lucky to have the police right outside,” says Fadde Darwich, safety inspector at the trendy Spy Bar in Stockholm. A week ago, the Dutch heavyweight street fighting instructor, Bas Rutten, assaulted three guards.

He is a champion of the unfair martial art street fighting where everything is allowed: knee-kicks, punching to the throat, and choking your opponent. Bas Rutten tried to apply some of these tricks as he visited Stockholm last Friday. “He arrived at Spy Bar late at night and was rude to a guest. We decided that he should leave the bar, and tumult arose,” says Fadde Darwich.

Bas Rutten cut one guard's eyebrow and landed a few more shots, but no one received any serious damage. Rutten was arrested and taken to Norrmalmsarresten (the Norrmalm Jail). He was arrested for assault and assaulting a police officer. Bas Rutten was later set free. He's now disappeared and has probably gone abroad.

As they say, “every cloud has a silver lining,” which is why our story doesn’t end there. In their editorial, the Swedish newspaper who attempted to defame Bas Rutten for using what it interpreted to be rotten tactics actually showed a copy of Bas’s Street and Self-Defense Tactics instructional video. Rather than achieving the desired end-result, the visual aid inspired readers to rush right out and learn the techniques that had allowed one man to survive the thugs at The Spy Bar.

Just what was Bas up against that night at The Spy Bar? Click here to read what patrons of Sweden’s The Spy Bar have been saying about the place for years. I think you’ll find it to be quite fascinating.

He has also told a story about he hardest he has ever been hit. He claims it was in the head with a bat that had a nail in it. That it was from behind and got stuck in his skull, he turned around and knocked the guy out. I'm not sure Bas is really human.

Having personally tried to use ikkyo in bjj and mma I can say that it's just too much risk for little reward. When ikkyo fails you end up in a really bad stop compared to the safer (in the unarmed context) full body controls.

As for the competition think, I still think most people have no idea what the point of competition is. I don't think guys like Anderson Silva look at competition the way many aikidoka do. I think they look at it as trying to be the best they can be. There is no 'top' and there is no downslide.

To me bjj and boxing is a form of yoga (a term I stole from Matt Thornton). It is a way to explore my body and mind and see what I can overcome. Sure the ability to handle myself in a fight is a nice secondary bonus, but the primary concerns are 100% internal.

I can think of no moment more powerful then being paired with a very strong and spastic new guy who just wants to rip your head off, he might not even know the rules. The pure control and pace seems almost impossible. The realization that your wits are the only thing keeping you from being smashed into paste, followed by seeing the fear and realization in his eyes. A close second to that moment is the moment your partner finally realizes how to train and breaks though that mold of aggression and fear of losing. Then you can have slow, tactical matches that transcend just grappling and move into pure art.

JasonDawe
01-27-2011, 02:14 PM
Saw a video of Steven Segal giving Anderson Silva some pointers and demonstrated what looked like an Iriminage by walking inside of the punch. Would be different technique for fighter to deal with when stand-up boxing is more of a square off and that is what they would expect.

Also dropped Silva with Kotegeishi too - that was funny.

Still I think some techniques such as Ikkyo or Iriminage could be effective and not violate small joint manipulation rules.

DonMagee
01-28-2011, 06:47 AM
Anything short of grabbing a finger and breaking it (or a toe) will not violate small joint manipulation rules.

tombuchanan
01-30-2011, 08:38 AM
Aikido focuses on cooperative training. The aforementioned technique (and those similar to it) will work in a cooperative environment.

MMA focuses on competition. Their techniques will work in a competitive (non-cooperative) environment.

MMA practitioners are typically athletes. Their techniques will work on physically strong individuals with an arsenal of techniques and defensive skills.

Richard Stevens
02-03-2011, 03:03 PM
I think Tom hid the nail on the head. The likeliness of being able to apply certain Aikido techniques in an MMA ring is greatly diminished by the fact that the competitors are athletes who typically have Jujutsu training.

Gavin Slater
02-03-2011, 04:01 PM
Hi,

I dont think it is to do with the waza, but more how you train the waza, and how you train in general. If you are going to fight in a competitive, athletic environment, then you need to prepare for that i.e randori, conditioning etc. People lose fights, waza dont.

Specifically speaking in regards to ikkajo (is it really just a pin?), for example think two on on in wrestling, that is a variation of ikkajo.

Regards,

Gavin

Hellis
02-03-2011, 04:18 PM
Adapt.... all techniques work..... it's where you apply them....:straightf

Tony
Agreed.

Many Aikido techniques work well in both the MMA and the street, sadly most people think of the application as in the choregraphed dojo situation..One must be able to adapt to any and all situations.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

daniel loughlin
02-17-2011, 04:51 AM
In answer to whether or not ikkyo would work in MMA yes :) I know this as i used it the other day myself. I did not use ikkyo to completely pin and control my partner if that what is meant by the original thread. However I was facing a guy who was around 5 stone heavier than me and be was burning himself out trying to apply a headlock & choke which he didnt have.
So i just sat there and practiced some relaxed breathing kept my chin tight to my chest, and when i felt an opening caught the wrist he was applying the choke with and reached up behind my head to push his elbow forward. I only meant it as a means of escape from the choke however he because he wasn't used to an ikkyo he didnt even put his free hand out to stop himself and went head first into the floor.
I have also found it a useful escape when someone pounces trying to take your back, but you have to be fast before they get their hooks in.
So as previously stated by others ikkyo does work it just may look a little bit different than it does in the dojo with a flowing partner.
Also people mentioning sankyo and nikkyo in MMA, i'm fair sure that you don't see them used ever because its against the rules of most UFC style fights to use wrist (and finger and toe holds for that matter.)
Peace :)

Demetrio Cereijo
02-17-2011, 05:21 AM
Also people mentioning sankyo and nikkyo in MMA, i'm fair sure that you don't see them used ever because its against the rules of most UFC style fights to use wrist (and finger and toe holds for that matter.)
Peace :)
Wristlocks are totally legal in MMA, in submission grappling and, of course, in Vale Tudo matches.

grondahl
02-17-2011, 05:32 AM
The myth of aikido waza as "to dangerous" for competition/sparring is hard to kill.

ChrisHein
02-17-2011, 10:48 AM
The myth of aikido waza as "to dangerous" for competition/sparring is hard to kill.

This myth is very annoying, and proven wrong in our school on an almost daily basis. I think cooperative Randori and Jiyuwaza are much more dangerous for Uke, than one where they can actually protect themselves.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-17-2011, 11:04 AM
This myth is very annoying, and proven wrong in our school on an almost daily basis.
But is an useful myth.