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dps
04-23-2010, 09:05 AM
If you are in a left stance and start your movement do you;

transfer all your weight to the leg you are pushing off on, push off then transfer weight that so that both legs are weighted?

or

push off on one leg and slide the other leg without a transfer of weight to the "push off leg"?

David

Janet Rosen
04-23-2010, 10:45 AM
I'll play w/ and vary the weight shifts depending on where I am, who is connected to me or not, and where I'm going.

Amassus
04-24-2010, 02:04 PM
I think this is a really interesting question.
I have been focussing on what happens to my weight when going through the taisabaki movements at the start of each class.
I'm trying to keep my weight evenly spread over both legs as much as I can, but some movements are harder to do this with than others.
Then, of course, have uke attached to you in some way and the weight distribution thing gets even harder.
I have noticed that if I get it right, my effect on uke is powerful and I can move him or her around effortlessly.

I hope other people comment on this one.

Dean.

ChrisHein
04-24-2010, 02:51 PM
I use a different footwork. It's similar to the second variation you describe. I learned it while doing xing yi, and I really do think it's best.

I weight the front leg, and drop from there. In other words, I put the majority of my weight on the forward leg, when I want to move forward I simply pick the front foot up, no weight shift, and fall. As I'm falling I accelerate my motion from the back leg. When I land I'll be lower then I started, I then pull the back foot to a shoulder width or less postion, and I'm ready to go again.

This movement is stupid fast. There is no weight shift so there is no lost time, and no telegraphing of my motion.

dps
04-24-2010, 03:23 PM
, I then pull the back foot to a shoulder width or less postion, and I'm ready to go again.



When you do this does it raise your center up.

David

RED
04-24-2010, 08:15 PM
I personal try to move the same I do in sheiko. That is to move from the hips, try to keep my weight balanced, back arched etc etc.

dps
04-24-2010, 10:09 PM
I personal try to move the same I do in sheiko. That is to move from the hips, try to keep my weight balanced, back arched etc etc.

Do you transfer all your weight to the leg you are pushing off on, or keep weight on your front let?

David

ChrisHein
04-24-2010, 11:39 PM
When you do this does it raise your center up.

David

Only if I choose to raise it. My center will lower as I move, when I finnish it will be lower then when I started. After I bring the foot up, I can choose to raise my center or not.

dps
04-25-2010, 12:28 AM
The analogy used when I was first taught was ice skating or rolling skating, push off with one leg without removing weight from the lead leg, which without skates on leads to a controlled fall. It is fast but once you start, your direction is committed and you can't change it until your movement is done.

The second method gives you more stability throughout the movement and ability to change direction for a longer period of time. This to me appears to give you more options in dealing with a resistant uke.

David

ChrisHein
04-25-2010, 12:49 AM
You can change direction in motion via the back leg.

RED
04-25-2010, 03:59 PM
Do you transfer all your weight to the leg you are pushing off on, or keep weight on your front let?

David
that's hard to say now that i think about it. lol
i guess most of the weight is on the back foot. but ultimately the goal is to keep you hips evenly centered over you weight. I try not to take my feet off the floor actually. If i have to step instead of slide i try to keep contact with the balls of my feet at all time. when a step is taken i have to lower my center to ensure not too much weight is on any given leg, and so i'm balanced and not top heavy. i don't like to have the majority of my weight on any given leg. i guess. just like sheiko.

SeiserL
04-26-2010, 05:51 AM
Depends on what technique I am doing and where uke is which leg is substantial and which one isn't.

As soon as I find a rule in Aikido someone shows me a variation where it just ain't so.

How does your sensei/dojocho teach it?

Shadowfax
04-26-2010, 04:01 PM
It depends on what you are going to do.

CurtisK
04-26-2010, 08:06 PM
Option 2...?

Im wondering if I can visualize exactly what the question is as the term "push off" is used quite frequently.

If you are "pushing off", would you not be unbalanced? If I was to put it into words, which often confuses me:

-Starting in strong balanced Kumii (60%+ on front foot)
-Pull hip & ki/center into/toward the front leg, and the hip is pulling the back leg with it. Your front leg bends slightly, depending on how large your stance was since your hips and head dont move up/down
-Rotate hip to pull back leg forward and use only as much leg muscles (front & back) as you need in order to position your previous back foot in its new front foot kumii position
-End with feet, hips, ki/center in strong balanced kumii.

I'm new, so I'm not trying to give advice. I'm just adding my 2cents and seeing what I can learn from the topic.

CurtisK
04-27-2010, 12:38 AM
I hope I'm not being too literal im my above post. I see many people indicating it depends on the movement or technique. From the information given by OP I could only presume that the movement in question was identified in the subject: "take a step". Being new, I recognize this as an independant, complete in itself, movement. Of course you must adjust accordingly to all other energy sources in your system of interaction if there is other stuff going on.

However, again perhaps because I'm new, I can only see the basics. The basics tell me there should be little pushing if any at all from your back leg. As I keep being reminded by my Aikidoka (its easier said than done for me sometimes), you can always muscle your through a movement, but you shouldnt need to for Aikido.

lbb
04-27-2010, 07:55 AM
It depends on what you are going to do.

That. Devoid of context, there's not a lot of point in going into the details of which muscle contracts as which toe is unweighted etc.

chillzATL
04-27-2010, 08:07 AM
I make sure that the ground is driving my hips, via my leg, every time I move, regardless of direction. Other than that I make sure that my weight never passes over the center of the lead foot. If I'm doing those things, stance, weight distributions, etc, tend to not matter.

John Brockington
04-27-2010, 03:16 PM
I totally and completely agree with Jason. It's not a matter of semantics, either, what he posted. (BTW Jason, why haven't we met?)

If you focus on where your weight is distributed while training, that's probably what you will develop. If you focus on how to generate movement and power without undue effort, that's possibly what you will develop. The extent of development of these things is, of course, variable and depends on how much and how efficently you train.

Movement predicated on isolated muscle effort will always be constrained by the performance of the muscle in question.

Movement predicated on a well-connected body that sources power from the ground up can take advantage of, but does not rely on, isolated muscle capability. The caveat is that doing this is much harder to do than meets the eye, and definitely is not intuitive.

Good luck in your training and search for instruction.

John

dps
04-27-2010, 05:07 PM
I totally and completely agree with Jason. It's not a matter of semantics, either, what he posted. (BTW Jason, why haven't we met?)

If you focus on where your weight is distributed while training, that's probably what you will develop. If you focus on how to generate movement and power without undue effort, that's possibly what you will develop. The extent of development of these things is, of course, variable and depends on how much and how efficently you train.

Movement predicated on isolated muscle effort will always be constrained by the performance of the muscle in question.

Movement predicated on a well-connected body that sources power from the ground up can take advantage of, but does not rely on, isolated muscle capability. The caveat is that doing this is much harder to do than meets the eye, and definitely is not intuitive.

Good luck in your training and search for instruction.

John

How would you teach a beginner how to move/ What would you tell him/her?

David

Erick Mead
04-27-2010, 11:00 PM
How would you teach a beginner how to move/ What would you tell him/her?First, I would explain walking to them. I discovered this after I pulled a hamstring and it confirmed -- in more ordinary terms -- what I had gleaned in observing movement in practice. When we walk efficiently, we DO NOT push off the back leg. I mean you can, but it is not efficient.

When we walk we begin by a sway off the hip center from the stance leg, in a slight topple forward and as the torso recovers upright, it communicates that recovery momentum to the swing leg, which swings freely forward until it meets the ground and becomes the new stance leg. The new stance leg compresses taking up slack and then translates our weight in a pivot from the ground with the hip acting as a swivel. The former stance leg becomes a prop leg, losing weight as it also stretches out until, when it reaches its natural stretch limit a reflex causes the legal flexor arc to fire, shortening the leg allowing it to lose contact with the ground in time with the complete loss of weight, causing it to swing freely as the new swing leg... etc. etc

Martial movement compresses the stance leg more, and consequently with more spiral of the hip and torso dominating, the prop leg is slid -- dragging it, essentially, lightly from the hip instead of swinging from it freely. The stretch reflex coordination is still present, but has to be retuned to do that effectively but the basics are otherwise the same.

John Brockington
04-28-2010, 07:48 AM
David (and Curtis)-

There is a simple drill, rather than discussion, which I think may help you with this.

One person stands upright, preferably on a smooth surface such as a dojo mat. Helper person kneels behind them and firmly grabs upright person's ankles or gi pants at the ankle level.

Upright person walks while kneeling person provides as much steady resistance as possible, mainly body weight, not fighting the walker but just giving steady, maximum resistance. This is similar to "obi-walking" which some people practice by holding the obi rather than ankles. But resistance at the ankles is much more demanding, I think.

If you rely on conventional walking methodology, you won't move much. You will find, I think, that you must figure out a way to use the ground as a beginning for movement, rather than your hip flexors.

If you want to make this even more challenging, add people who resist you at the same time as the ankle person, but at other parts of your body- forehead, chest, shoulders are all fun. This is a tremendous workout, but really makes you think about (and train) movement in ways that again, are not intuitive, but require constant force coming from the ground while moving.

You will probably find that one of the key places where things get really rough is when you attempt to "swing" a leg forward. You can't do that with this drill.

Play around with the mechanics of this, and have fun!

John

chillzATL
04-28-2010, 08:34 AM
How would you teach a beginner how to move/ What would you tell him/her?

David

I'm assuming the entire context of this thread relates to moving in aikido and the whole notion of "moving from your center".

One neat little drill that I picked up is to have people pair up and get a jo. They face off and put the jo between them, hara to hara. Nage walking forward, Uke walking backwards. Basically nage's job is to move Uke with the jo. Because of where the jo is placed, the only way to do this is to move from the hips/center first and naturally you have to feel that connection between the ground and the hips to do that. On the receiving end Uke is basically doing the same thing, in reverse. They do this down and back a few times focusing on maintaining a steady consistent pressure between themselves with the jo and feeling the ground driving them in their respective directions.

At first they'll probably drop their stance down lower (not a bad thing) than they're used to and move unnaturally, but after a while that sort of fixes itself and they'll get back to feeling like they're moving normally, but they'll definitely have a solid feel for what it means to "move from your center". It also helps clean up footwork if they're used to shuffling their feet a lot.

chillzATL
04-28-2010, 08:37 AM
I totally and completely agree with Jason. It's not a matter of semantics, either, what he posted. (BTW Jason, why haven't we met?)



Hi John. I'm sure we'll get together soon. We've tried a few times but it just hasn't worked out yet. The trek from Alabama to Atlanta is a bear! I'm looking forward to meeting everyone out your way though.

John Brockington
04-28-2010, 11:46 AM
Jason-

Looking forward to the meetup!

We once tried a variation on the jo drill you mentioned, using instead two shorter dowels/hanbo lengths more or less at each side of the hara, but all the same premises otherwise. I thought it added a little something, perhaps just a more direct connection of each hip/side to uke, rather than such an isolated point of the jo/hara.

But it's hard to argue with the ability of some of the people who have trained with the method you gave, and the 2 hanbo version may just be splitting hairs.

John

Chicko Xerri
04-29-2010, 06:43 AM
With consideration. Half a step is required to establish the advantage or to execute any technique with Aikido. Any thing more is an exaggeration.

RED
04-29-2010, 10:53 AM
With consideration. Half a step is required to establish the advantage or to execute any technique with Aikido. Any thing more is an exaggeration.

Explain what you mean by half a step?
I'm from a federation in general that favors big movements, we do half steps, but big movement is emphasized. So I might not quite understand what you mean by a half step being sufficient.

j0nharris
04-29-2010, 11:35 AM
If you are in a left stance and start your movement do you;
David

Over time I've come to move my center first, through the inguinal fold (chinese qua) ...
As the fold relaxes, weight shifts & one foot or the other can easily move, without moving the foot first. (Does that make any sense at all?)
Another interesting idea I've come across: When I was in Chicago a few years ago for a work conference, I attended a class with a Sensei who talked about the center as a ball bearing attached to all parts of the body; so as the center starts movement, various parts of the body respond accordingly. I have no idea what his name was.. but I still think of that concept frequently, especially when explaining movement to newer students.

My two cents... .

John Brockington
04-29-2010, 01:07 PM
Over time I've come to move my center first, through the inguinal fold (chinese qua) ...
As the fold relaxes, weight shifts & one foot or the other can easily move, without moving the foot first. (Does that make any sense at all?)
Another interesting idea I've come across: When I was in Chicago a few years ago for a work conference, I attended a class with a Sensei who talked about the center as a ball bearing attached to all parts of the body; so as the center starts movement, various parts of the body respond accordingly. I have no idea what his name was.. but I still think of that concept frequently, especially when explaining movement to newer students.

My two cents... .

This "ball bearing" is the mobile dantien (aka tanden) that is commonly discussed, trained, scrutinized, etc, etc, etc, in some "internal" martial arts, particularly in China. When those practitioners say things like "all movement is initiated by the dantien/tanden," this is what they are mean. When many people in aikido say things like "move from the center," they are repeating what they have heard from other IMA practitioners, but often can not really elucidate what they mean, or else do it in terms that are so vague and conceptual and incapable of really instructing beginners as to be suspect in terms of real understanding. I wouldn't be surprised if the above Sensei had exposure to some of the Chinese martial arts, although from your post it sounds as though he did not mention his sources or how he came up with this. Very interesting, indeed.

And although the dantien/tanden is a concept, it is also a definite physical entity, not metaphysical, not purely conceptual. And it definitely is at the center (no pun intended) of many basic teachings in most internal martial arts.

All that being said, I think that if you can find out who that Sensei was, you should make serious effort to seek him out and see if he can teach you how to develop your own "ball bearing." If he can actually teach you this, he is a veritable treasure in the aikido world, and I would love to find out more about him.

Cordially-

John

Chicko Xerri
04-29-2010, 08:32 PM
Movement within the Universe is relative. We have a mind capable of reducing and expanding a visualization. Time and distance is also relative with Aikido and visualization. We create large spirals, circles and curves, we are also able to visualize them down proportionately and arrive to the necessary Maai. Half a step with either leading or reversing foot, provided Maai is in proportion to the movement as a whole, any technique, Irimi or tenkan will be true.

This is a recent approach O'Sensei dispached when executing his technique. In his later years before his death he reduced his immediate Universe thus reducing exaggerated movements, not because he was a frail old man. O' Sensei always showed the way by example, whether his students captured his example is an other matter. Half a step is his term. I have found Posture and outlook is greatly developed with this understanding. .... Yours in Aiki. Chicko.

Chicko Xerri
04-29-2010, 08:40 PM
Explain what you mean by half a step?
I'm from a federation in general that favors big movements, we do half steps, but big movement is emphasized. So I might not quite understand what you mean by a half step being sufficient.
Hello Maggie.
Movement within the Universe is relative. We have a mind capable of reducing and expanding a visualization. Time and distance is also relative with Aikido and visualization. We create large spirals, circles and curves, we are also able to visualize them down proportionately and arrive to the necessary Maai. Half a step with either leading or reversing foot, provided Maai is in proportion to the movement as a whole, any technique, Irimi or tenkan will be true.

This is a recent approach O'Sensei dispached when executing his technique. In his later years before his death he reduced his immediate Universe thus reducing exaggerated movements, not because he was a frail old man. O' Sensei always showed the way by example, whether his students captured his example is an other matter. Half a step is his term. I have found Posture and outlook is greatly developed with this understanding. More so its an aquired feeling that brings one to the understanding....Difficult to explain, Sorry.... Yours in Aiki. Chicko.

Ernesto Lemke
04-30-2010, 02:10 AM
And although the dantien/tanden is a concept, it is also a definite physical entity, not metaphysical, not purely conceptual.

Hello mr. Brockington,

Would you mind elaborating a bit on your statement that the dantien is a definite physical entity? I may be misreading you. My interest was raised by your phrasing of the dantien as something physically tangible which I took as something physically tangible on it's own. A 'real' 'ball' if you will. The dantien as a nexus point, IOW something that connects other (physical) parts is how I currently understand the dantien but I don't see it as a stand alone physical entity, like a liver for example. Conceptually yes, physically, well, hmmm, no, maybe, I dunno. Never heard of surgically removing or locating a 'real' dantien.

So I wonder if you would mind shedding some more light on this.
Best regards,

Ernesto Lemke

John Brockington
04-30-2010, 08:26 AM
Ernesto-

I did not say the dantien is an organ, like the liver, only that it is a physical entity. So no, I do not think it can be surgically removed. Your nexus description is correct, but remember that we are talking about a physiological nexus, not a metaphorical one. Also, we are talking about the main dantien (slightly below and interior to the navel), not the lower (perineum) or upper (sternum) dantien. But all can be developed through physical training, thus physical entities. All are points of physical control or power generation. There has been some speculation that some martial artists who are/were thought to have highly developed middle dantien, like Ueshiba and Tohei, have somewhat odd physiques, not fat or overweight at all, but with protruding mid-sections which could be a visible physiological manifestation of the dantien. This is speculation, however.

Cordially-

John

John Brockington
04-30-2010, 10:16 AM
Ernesto-

I had to abbreviate my last post due to work, but wanted to add a bit more to it and give a few examples which may help with seeing how some physiological entities do not have to be encapsulated tissues. What is confusing, I think, is that we are dealing with a physical manifestation of uncommon body skills (kokyu or jin) that is predicated on developing and enhancing body structures which are not typically considered in standard western body concepts. At least not what I learned in medical school.

But there are analogies that we do feel comfortable with, I think, such as cognitive function. Is this something that is accepted in western science as a physiological entity? Yes. Do we know how to improve or develop it or let it decline through disuse? Yes. Does it occur in a specific body location? Yes. Can it be surgically removed? Not really, in the sense that you can't extract cognition from the brain, although you can take out the brain from the cranial vault. What about conventional hand-eye coordination- can it be physically trained and enhanced or else deteriorate due to under-utilization? Yes. Do we know which body processes are necessary for this to occur? Yes. Can it be surgically removed? No.

We could probably go on and on, but my point is that we should be talking about dantien and center and kokyu and jin as physical properties, not in terms of metaphysical mumbo-jumbo.

Hope that helps?

John

RED
04-30-2010, 10:18 PM
Hello Maggie.
Movement within the Universe is relative. We have a mind capable of reducing and expanding a visualization. Time and distance is also relative with Aikido and visualization. We create large spirals, circles and curves, we are also able to visualize them down proportionately and arrive to the necessary Maai. Half a step with either leading or reversing foot, provided Maai is in proportion to the movement as a whole, any technique, Irimi or tenkan will be true.

This is a recent approach O'Sensei dispached when executing his technique. In his later years before his death he reduced his immediate Universe thus reducing exaggerated movements, not because he was a frail old man. O' Sensei always showed the way by example, whether his students captured his example is an other matter. Half a step is his term. I have found Posture and outlook is greatly developed with this understanding. More so its an aquired feeling that brings one to the understanding....Difficult to explain, Sorry.... Yours in Aiki. Chicko.

Okay! Thanks for the clarification. :D

dps
04-30-2010, 11:29 PM
Ernesto-

I had to abbreviate my last post due to work, but wanted to add a bit more to it and give a few examples which may help with seeing how some physiological entities do not have to be encapsulated tissues. What is confusing, I think, is that we are dealing with a physical manifestation of uncommon body skills (kokyu or jin) that is predicated on developing and enhancing body structures which are not typically considered in standard western body concepts. At least not what I learned in medical school.

But there are analogies that we do feel comfortable with, I think, such as cognitive function. Is this something that is accepted in western science as a physiological entity? Yes. Do we know how to improve or develop it or let it decline through disuse? Yes. Does it occur in a specific body location? Yes. Can it be surgically removed? Not really, in the sense that you can't extract cognition from the brain, although you can take out the brain from the cranial vault. What about conventional hand-eye coordination- can it be physically trained and enhanced or else deteriorate due to under-utilization? Yes. Do we know which body processes are necessary for this to occur? Yes. Can it be surgically removed? No.

We could probably go on and on, but my point is that we should be talking about dantien and center and kokyu and jin as physical properties, not in terms of metaphysical mumbo-jumbo.

Hope that helps?

John

If they are physical manifestations of processes of the body why not describe these processes in known western medical terms?

David

Ernesto Lemke
05-01-2010, 03:28 AM
Hope that helps?


Thanks for the clarification, now if you don't mind I'll head back to bed as I came down with a severe case of stomach flu...not dantien related I hope. :drool:

John Brockington
05-02-2010, 07:19 PM
David-

I agree completely, although I would suggest expanding the description of dantien/center/how to take a step in aikido to include not just medical terms but also terms which do not require medical training or background. This is exactly what I am saying we need to do in aikido.

The problem is finding people who want to try to do just this in aikido. The majority of this type of discussion has been relegated to the part of Aikiweb entitled "Non-aikido martial traditions." It would seem that some (many? certain?) people in aikido do not want this type of discussion, and are much happier or more comfortable with the vague or metaphysical or philosophical or whatever responses that we see in some of the other posters in your thread. Perhaps it is time to begin a serious solicitation for this type of discussion on Aikiweb, in the main forums and not in some dark and dusty corner.

You see, David, none of us doing IS have all the answers. And I am certainly, enquivocably, self-admittedly, not an expert in this. But many of us feel that to have any meaningful discussion, like what you are asking for, we have to go to Mike's forum or just discuss amongst ourselves. And make no mistake, this is EXACTLY the sort of thing that Mike has been pushing us for for years. This will have to be a revolution in the aikido world, of sorts, and a famous historian (I think it was Crane Brinton in his Anatomy of a Revolution- forgive me if I'm way off, I read that a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away) once said that in all the major revolutions, 1/3 of the population is lost. Hope that's not true, but maybe those lost will come back again in this one.

John

dps
05-06-2010, 07:07 PM
David-

I agree completely, although I would suggest expanding the description of dantien/center/how to take a step in aikido to include not just medical terms but also terms which do not require medical training or background. This is exactly what I am saying we need to do in aikido.

You don't need medical training or background to understand how the body is structured, just a desire to have an accurate understanding.

Is it easier to understand what Ki is than how bones, muscles, connective tissue, etc work? I can show you a picture of these things but not Ki. I can lead you to the people whose work is understanding how the body works with hands on experience (literally). They can give a concrete physical description of how it works. The trick is to keep the description simple.

The problem is finding people who want to try to do just this in aikido. The majority of this type of discussion has been relegated to the part of Aikiweb entitled "Non-aikido martial traditions." It would seem that some (many? certain?) people in aikido do not want this type of discussion, and are much happier or more comfortable with the vague or metaphysical or philosophical or whatever responses that we see in some of the other posters in your thread. Perhaps it is time to begin a serious solicitation for this type of discussion on Aikiweb, in the main forums and not in some dark and dusty corner.

The "Non-Aikido Traditions" is because the people leading those discussions are outside Aikido. When the non-Aikido people jump in and dominate a thread, you can bet that at some time the thread will most likely be closed.
If these discussions were led by people in Aikido using Aikido examples of what they are talking about then maybe the discussions would be mainstream.

Lets hear from some of the people in Aikido who can relate what they have learned ( as far as IS is concerned) to Aikido.

You see, David, none of us doing IS have all the answers.

We are all doing IS.
IS is already in Aikido.
IS is a part of the human anatomy.
IS is a physical ability that in modern society is not as developed because of the work and life styles of modern times do no require it.

David

John Brockington
05-07-2010, 08:45 AM
You don't need medical training or background to understand how the body is structured, just a desire to have an accurate understanding.

Is it easier to understand what Ki is than how bones, muscles, connective tissue, etc work? I can show you a picture of these things but not Ki. I can lead you to the people whose work is understanding how the body works with hands on experience (literally). They can give a concrete physical description of how it works. The trick is to keep the description simple.

The "Non-Aikido Traditions" is because the people leading those discussions are outside Aikido. When the non-Aikido people jump in and dominate a thread, you can bet that at some time the thread will most likely be closed.
If these discussions were led by people in Aikido using Aikido examples of what they are talking about then maybe the discussions would be mainstream.

Lets hear from some of the people in Aikido who can relate what they have learned ( as far as IS is concerned) to Aikido.

We are all doing IS.
IS is already in Aikido.
IS is a part of the human anatomy.
IS is a physical ability that in modern society is not as developed because of the work and life styles of modern times do no require it.

David

David-

I think we are getting into a debate which is a reflection of semantics, because I don't think you and I are talking about the same IS.

The IS I am talking about has the POTENTIAL to be in aikido, but the methodology for truly developing it is not widely practiced in conventional aikido, at least not in the Aikikai or Yoshinkan groups that I am familiar with and have trained with. Ki society? Well, I haven't trained in a Ki society dojo. I did read Tohei's books and tried to replicate his exercises, and I do agree that the general gist is probably in the direction that I am training, but details seem lacking. Maybe not in the dojo, though, but I don't know from personal experience. So I could be wrong there.

The IS I am talking about is not a part of human anatomy, it is a skill set. As an analogy, I would not, for example, say that distance running is part of the human anatomy. I do think there are body structures which can be developed or connected to develop ability in IS.

While the IS I am talking about was most certainly developed in non-industrialized societies, you might want to talk to people like Phi, who practice the type of IS that I do but who grew up in non-industrialized societies and have stated openly that heavy manual labor does not develop that specific skill set. However, I do think that the mindset to train the IS I am talking about is extremely uncommon in the West. You have to be willing to not do some cool waza or get really any ego strokes for a long, long time and do a lot of boring, difficult training. I have shown a little of what I know (which again is at a very novice stage) to a number of aikido people in this country, and to a person, they have all said that they could see the merits but did not want to do the training. Too boring.

If you ever have opportunity to go to a seminar given by Akuzawa (the Aunkai guy) or Mike Sigman, but have not yet done so, I would strongly suggest it. I haven't trained with Dan H. (would like to) but suspect his power is similar- impressive, connected, non-local muscle use, etc, etc. There is no discussion that can really accurately convey the power that those guys generate. The hands-on experience affords an appreciation for the distinctions between the IS that people think is taught in Aikido and the IS that is based on body training (not technique/waza) methodologies that go way, way back before aikido, and which was in Ueshiba's aikido, but not transmitted widely or effectively.

John

Aikibu
05-07-2010, 09:30 AM
With consideration. Half a step is required to establish the advantage or to execute any technique with Aikido. Any thing more is an exaggeration.

Exactly... Half Step... both feet forward...toes on the lead foot point in towards Uke...Weight balanced on both balls of the feet and grounded.

William Hazen

mathewjgano
05-07-2010, 06:20 PM
The IS I am talking about is not a part of human anatomy, it is a skill set. As an analogy, I would not, for example, say that distance running is part of the human anatomy. I do think there are body structures which can be developed or connected to develop ability in IS.
My sense of his meaning was that one can look to anatomy to explain what is happening when someone acts in an aiki way. Saying a function of the body is irrelevant to anatomy discussions doesn't make sense to me.
Also, for what it's worth, I would describe the ability at distance running in particular to be "in the anatomy," for people, since we have the appropriate features which facilitate the activity.

dps
05-09-2010, 10:16 AM
While the IS I am talking about was most certainly developed in non-industrialized societies, you might want to talk to people like Phi, who practice the type of IS that I do but who grew up in non-industrialized societies and have stated openly that heavy manual labor does not develop that specific skill set.

I am not talking about heavy manual labor, but the ordinary routine of people, without the labor saving devices we enjoy today, did in their daily lives.

David

phitruong
05-10-2010, 02:13 PM
While the IS I am talking about was most certainly developed in non-industrialized societies, you might want to talk to people like Phi, who practice the type of IS that I do but who grew up in non-industrialized societies and have stated openly that heavy manual labor does not develop that specific skill set.
John

nope! don't talk to people like phi. the bugger only knows how to eat and drink and be merry (as soon as i find out who the hell merry was i'd kick the bugger to kingdom come!). folks like us are not well educated farmers and such. we know nothing about IS and wouldn't dream of discussing it. as far as stepping goes, we just step as needed and sometimes not even take a step at all. one should be able to take step(s) in any direction without reset/preset. one thing i learned from wading hips deep in the mud was that launching from back foot would sink you deeper in the mud. i found that it was much easier to hold on to a water buffalo tail and let it dragged you across the mud which save you energy and gave you a good mud bath which really good for your skin and all. :D incidentally, the easiest way to walk through mud is doing the sanchin steps.

dps
05-10-2010, 02:54 PM
incidentally, the easiest way to walk through mud is doing the sanchin steps.

The easiest way to walk through mud is ride the animal and let it do the walking. :)

David

phitruong
05-10-2010, 05:18 PM
The easiest way to walk through mud is ride the animal and let it do the walking. :)

David

very true. although, the water buffalo skin was similar to human skin which is smooth and slippery when wet. so the state of riding on top and be step on often were one and the same. plus they have great sense of humor by enjoying the process of dunking you in mud and laugh about it. so i found the process of walking along side with them and held on to their tails, enjoyable by both parties and save the animal from great pain of mirth. :)

dps
05-10-2010, 05:25 PM
very true. although, the water buffalo skin was similar to human skin which is smooth and slippery when wet. so the state of riding on top and be step on often were one and the same. plus they have great sense of humor by enjoying the process of dunking you in mud and laugh about it. so i found the process of walking along side with them and held on to their tails, enjoyable by both parties and save the animal from great pain of mirth. :)

:D
People think animals are dumb beasts.
To get an animal to do what you want you have to be smarter than the animal. :)

David

Robert Calton
05-11-2010, 04:32 PM
I've been at this for a short while, but I think a forward movement from the stance you described should feel a lot like the funakogi undo exercize, where you use your center to express motion in your extremities.

Except instead of a rowing motion with your arms, you use that forward moving-from-center motion to translate into your step.

Hope that adds something! :D

Cliff Judge
05-14-2010, 09:56 AM
I just try to move with my center.

I pretty much pretend I am Baron Harkonnen when I am moving around that mat.

Phil Van Treese
05-14-2010, 02:05 PM
The easiest way to step in aikido is to make it a dance step as I teach my students in my class. In dancing, especially ballroom, it all comes from the hips and body movement. If you can translate that into an aikido movement combined with irimi or tenkan, you will move swiftly, effortlessly and quite skillfully. Whenever I take my students to a seminar, almost everytime someone asks how do they move so smoothly with no effort. When they get told by ballroom dancing footwork and movement, they are amazed. It works great!!!