and wing chun doesn't win... [Archive]

Bruce Baker

04-24-2002, 06:48 AM

I guess you have reviewed the history of Wing Tsun?

In order to make it effective within a five year training period, it is most effective within arms length ... including weapons within this distance.

If you are on the floor, then your opponent has harmonized with your movements to use your power. So this should tell you to observe their movements, or counter movements to find the harmonious movement you need to blend.

My hero's for infighting are Wing Tsun, and Wally Jay's Jujitsu which takes many of the aikido armbars, wristlocks, and even finger/to submissions and works them into a grappling forum.

I know we work on other things, in the majority of Aikido classes, but the theory of movement carries into other disciplines.

Check out the ten principles of small circle jujitsu and see if both the principles and turning the big circles into small circles, when the need arises, doesn't work for Aikido too?

Balance.

Mobility and Stability.

Avoid head on collision of forces.

Mental resistance and distraction.

Focus to the smallest point possible(proper direction of force)

Energy transfer.
Create a base.(used for those with flexible joints or to restrict amount of movement needed)

Sticking, contol and sensitivity.

Rotational momentum.

Transitional flow.

Small circle.

Although we learn and use large circles in most Aikido lessons, the same principle can be applied to using a small circle.

Learn the big circle, save the small circle for quick, efficient street fighting. Each has it's uses. I have seen a couple of Aikido sensei's use small circle in seminar demonstrations (although they denied it was a small circle when questioned, it most certainly was!)

You might find the neutralizing in turning your Aikido into smaller, not necessarily small circle, techniques to counter the speed of Wing Tsun. Principles of that discipline have merrit for training also.

Oops ... there goes another secret.

Keep reading Aikiweb threads.

(I tend to let out the secrets that certain teachers deny as proven methods ... of course they were never secret to begin with?)

Be polite, and learn with a smile.

04-24-2002, 07:42 AM

Hi Jan,

Did you try the same things on your Wing Chun instructor? Just curious...

Regards,

Jorx

04-25-2002, 08:32 AM

As I wrote in a thread in "General" section - I got my arse kicked by a 1,1/2 year WT practioner. But I have done less Aikido (mere 3 years) than You. That anyhow doesn't matter. I have this analyzed throughoutly - my Aikido didn't work.
Anyhow it seemed to me that he didn't do any commited attacks so I wasn't able to nor irimi nor grab him - Jan - If you can, please give your comment on that. What EXACTLY did you do with him? I think you didn't do kaiten-nage on him, huh;)?

Bruce (everyone says the surname in this forum, hope you don't mind) - I think the size of the circle doesn't matter that much - I don't mean that it doesn't make a difference when doing technique, of course it does BUT don't you agree that a small-circle master can do large circles if he wants/the situation demands and vice versa?

To quick attacks you have to respond quickly - therefore the small circle might be more efficient - take less time. My sensei applicates that a lot. Anyhow - do you agree that the small circle takes more precision = more practice to master. As I have experienced on myself - when doing large circles, small errors don't show and/or can be easily corrected... but small circles - a small error is already a fatal error.

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
Riveta Sportsclub

Jan Glembotzki

04-30-2002, 04:52 AM

Hi Jorx.
wing chun-fighter are (or should be ;) ) specialized on feeling the movements of an opponent. If they have contact with the opponent there is (or should be ;) ) no need to control him with visual input, they just feel the pressure and react.
I trained chi-sau with my partner when I realized that this special kind of contact invited me to try some techniques from my prefered system named aikido :D. I used the rotating energy of our moving arms (at chi-sau) and tried some simple techniques, like udo-sai and later a (short) koshi-nage.
My partner couldn't react because I didn't give him any pressure, no punch, no attack, but I didn't stop the rotating movement of my arms and magnified our energy... voila.
I know that chi-sau is just a way to become more sensitive, no real fight, but it's one of the most important things within the WC, too!

Ok, seems very simple, and I wouldn't try it with an 70 years old WC master from deepest china but....
So I and a friend of mine will keep on trying to find out more possibilitys of using the circle as an answer to "I protect my middle" wing chun.

By the way: In the first phase of a confrontation (no contact) WC is not SO much better than most of the other "real" self defence systems, I think. EVERYONE has to use his eyes until go into infight.
Jorx, perhaps you can tell me more about you and your aikido and your trainingfight, especially which techniques you tried to do with your opponent?

Greetings

markrasmus

09-17-2004, 10:01 PM

Hi Jan,
I found your comments about throwing wing chun people on the floor very unbelievable. Be honest Now!
I have been involved in Wing Chun most of my life, teaching 18 years. I live in Japan now. I visited one of the best aikido schools in Japan to check it out and perhaps learn something new. Very excited I did a lesson and finally got too touch hands with the master, a fellow in his fifties who feautures in the aikido mags regularly. anyway as soon as I touched, I cut his root and he floated and I was suprised how easily. I straightaway realised that they dont train to fight, they train an art form. I may be wrong. Perhaps because aikido may not have sticking exercises they do not develop a deep listening skill. not sure.
But my overall experience with past aikido teachers is that they are artist, not fighters. I suppose the question is how many aikido guys go full contact regularly?
I have great respect for the art of Aikido and after reading the founders book, I can see he was an enlightened soul.
Best to you,
Mark
;)

shihonage

09-18-2004, 01:07 AM

I visited one of the best aikido schools in Japan to check it out and perhaps learn something new. Very excited I did a lesson and finally got too touch hands with the master, a fellow in his fifties who feautures in the aikido mags regularly. anyway as soon as I touched, I cut his root and he floated and I was suprised how easily.

I am curious, what made you come to the conclusion that he was a master and one of the best in Aikido ?

heyoka

09-18-2004, 01:43 AM

I don't know what Aikido is, but I don't think it's for fighting per se. So in that respect I'd agree with Mr Rasmus, but maybe not in the way one would think.

Richard Cardwell

09-18-2004, 06:28 AM

I'm gonna be the party pooper, and remind all present that Herr Glembotzki started this thread nearly two and a half years ago, so a reply may not be imminent. I hope it goes on, though, because it looks like being a worthwhile read...

Jay Peezy

09-18-2004, 09:29 AM

[QUOTE=Mark Rasmus]But my overall experience with past aikido teachers is that they are artist, not fighters. I suppose the question is how many aikido guys go full contact regularly?

Finally someone besides me realizes this! I have started another thread on experinces with aikido in real life to see what works against someone who is trying to beat you up or worse. All i got out of this was...nothing. No one gave me an answer but instead tried to convince me that you do not use aikido techniques, but simply React to an attack, flow, etc. They say the key to aikido is more of a spiritualized thing over being a style of self defense. I think every martial art ever designed was meant to help you fight. Samurais used aikido. If aikido wasnt meant to do certain things at certain times then why do certain techniques hurt? Crank sankyo on someone and drop them. That is a technique to be trained alive and put into a good fighting system of self defense. I think if you trained the techniques of aikido "alive" you could most certainly use some of them.

SeiserL

09-18-2004, 10:59 AM

Yep, each system is prepared to only deal with what is within their system. That is why, IMHO, cross training is so important. The more exposure, education, and experience we have in many systems, the more likely we will be able to work within it. Go to the Aiki Expo next year because there will be some other styles there too.

Wing Chun Chi Sau is like blending but with the arms rather than the total body. We have used the FMA flow (sorta like Chi Sau) into Aikido waza. An interesting exercise.

Since most of your training is Aikido, it will feel more natural. Keep the two separate until they integrate naturally. Compliments on the corss training. Many don't and get the response you got.

disabledaccount

09-18-2004, 03:17 PM

...the small circle might be more efficient - take(s) less time. My sensei applicates that a lot. Anyhow - do you agree that the small circle takes more precision = more practice to master. As I have experienced on myself - when doing large circles, small errors don't show and/or can be easily corrected... but small circles - a small error is already a fatal error.

Alright, in spite of the fact that this is a two year old thread, I think Mr. Matsi had something important to say. I'd like to expand on his idea and point out thyat while most aikido techniques are initially taught in a large frame style to the complete beginner, I often see the same technique demonstrated by skilled aikidoka with almost no discernable "circles" or body movements at all. When you take ukemi from one of these folks though, you definately feel nage's center and body rotating in very tight circles. Bearing this in mind, it would seem that aikido tends to start off large and obvious with it's bodywork, then gradually refine and shrink the movements while retaining the internal adjustments.

Perhaps because aikido may not have sticking exercises they do not develop a deep listening skill.

Sorry Mark, I couldn't disagree with you more on this point. EVERY aikido exercise I've ever done with a partner involves sensitivity and stickiness. In my opinion, most WC people are rather stiff and insensitive when you touch anything but thier arms, wich tend to be disconnected from the rest of thier bodies. The WC folks I've crossed hands with also really float in thier chests, which makes it incredibly easy to throw them.

I don't think this means all WC people are no good, in fact I like WC quite alot. Just observations.

Jorx

09-20-2004, 01:06 AM

Yep, each system is prepared to only deal with what is within their system. That is why, IMHO, cross training is so important.

The only style to be prepared outside of it's system is a style which trains with resistance in striking distance, clinch and ground. A styleless style. A collection of best delivery systems for techniques.

Funny thing is that most of the TMA styles are prepared to operate within their style AND traditional shotokan karate :D Wing Chun and Aikido work oh so well against Shotokan.

Yet the point of arguing Wing Chun vs. Aikido is pointless because both are traditional styles and if you put one stylist vs. the other it would probably look like bad boxing vs. bad judo.

Grabbing someone's hand's in chi sao which is a just a drill does not prove or show anything (to me:) ).

batemanb

09-20-2004, 01:57 AM

Finally someone besides me realizes this! I have started another thread on experinces with aikido in real life to see what works against someone who is trying to beat you up or worse. All i got out of this was...nothing. No one gave me an answer but instead tried to convince me that you do not use aikido techniques, but simply React to an attack, flow, etc.

That is correct. A technique is a by product resulting from your movement combining with that of your attacker. If you go with the intent of doing technique first you are fighting, this is not Aikido.

They say the key to aikido is more of a spiritualized thing over being a style of self defense. I think every martial art ever designed was meant to help you fight.

If you read up on Aikido, you will find that it most definately was created by the founder on a Spiritual plane. His ideas were to use the practice of techniques as misogi, purification of the body. It certainly wasn't designed to fight.

Samurais used aikido.

Err, no they didn't. They may of used Aiki jitsu or ju jitsu techniques, but Aikido as developed by O Sensei wasn't actually formulated until the 1930 - 1940's. I believe the term Aikido was first used around 1942.

If aikido wasnt meant to do certain things at certain times then why do certain techniques hurt? Crank sankyo on someone and drop them. That is a technique to be trained alive and put into a good fighting system of self defense. I think if you trained the techniques of aikido "alive" you could most certainly use some of them.

Back to combining body movement. It's about moving your body so that you move with the attacker, the attacking body then gets sucked in with you. This will allow you to unbalance your attacker, once that has been done you will find that your attacker will either continue to fall or struggle to recover, it's his weight falling that causes the pain, not me cranking a sankyo.

Regards

Bryan

MarkDole

09-20-2004, 02:44 AM

IMHO the standard aikido training in regular classes is just one form of training. If you stop at that point you won't progress adequately. I've been doing aikido for 6 yrs, and I recently began cross training with a WC guy. I quickly noticed that timing must be totally different in "real" situations. In the kihon form of aikido training we are wait for each other to do forms precisely. We forgive minor errors, and so on. The purpose of free (or more free) form of training is the opposite. To let know the participant their errors. As it was mentioned in an other thread - the purpose of the attacker is breaking the connection rather than keeping it. It is also the opposite to kihon aikido training. So the keys are kuzushi and henka oyo wasa. I (obviously) found vital to achive kuzushi. There is and will be no aikido technique without it. So you can try anything without kuzushi, it wont work. And it's very hard for me to do that in free training but I work hard on that point :grr:
At the end I think aikido as other MAs must be martial and art at the same time. Not just art or just fight but both 50/50 (or 100/100) :) I'm sure there are mere artist or fighters among aikido teachers but they are not the Aikido just misguided practitioners...

Regards

MB.

thomas_dixon

09-20-2004, 10:37 AM

I guess you also gotta take into effect, that if you add strikes to Aikido it once again becomes Jujutsu (in a sense)....Without the nerve damaging blocks, bone breaking locks/attacks, dislocating throws and the whole small circle thing...

markrasmus

09-20-2004, 09:48 PM

I am curious, what made you come to the conclusion that he was a master and one of the best in Aikido ?

Hi Aleksey,
He is well known in the region and came highly recommended as I wanted to learn a traditional Japanese art while I am here in Japan for a few years. I didnt want to put him down in any way, I just made an observation. An intersting exercise he got me to do for relaxation is to raise my arm and relax it until it dropped from the relaxation. We have similiar exercises in Wing Chun, except we hold the shape instead of dropping the arm and relax while our partner presses on it. To train relaxation under pressure.
Best to you
Mark

markrasmus

09-20-2004, 09:59 PM

Wing Chun Chi Sau is like blending but with the arms rather than the total body. We have used the FMA flow (sorta like Chi Sau) into Aikido waza. An interesting exercise.

Hi Lynn,
Just a quick note,
If a person touches a wing chunner, the force of the touch is directed through the body to the root. The line of tension formed from the point of the touch to the root is then relaxed into the tendons to load or create elastic force in the body which is mechanically rebound to the person touching you. Like pushing on a mechanically complex series of springs.
So Wing Chun power is whole body power focusing mainly on development of soft elastic springy force. It is not hard or tense in the upper body.
Best to you
Mark
:)

markrasmus

09-20-2004, 10:13 PM

Sorry Mark, I couldn't disagree with you more on this point. EVERY aikido exercise I've ever done with a partner involves sensitivity and stickiness. In my opinion, most WC people are rather stiff and insensitive when you touch anything but thier arms, wich tend to be disconnected from the rest of thier bodies. The WC folks I've crossed hands with also really float in thier chests, which makes it incredibly easy to throw them.
I don't think this means all WC people are no good, in fact I like WC quite alot. Just observations.

Hi Bodhi,
As I said I in my original post, I was not sure. I was making an assumption, my apologies.
I agree many wing chun people float in the chest, unfortunately they are training incorrectly when that is happening. As mentioned in my previous post, Wing Chun is very soft through the whole body. Imagine the body to be a series of springs. If you push or pull any of these springs they will stretch or compress without lose of center if the root is anchored correctly.
A Wing Chun axiom states" Feet rooted like a mountain, Legs move like a cat, Body flexible as tofu, Protect the head as if glass".
Best to you,
Mark
:)

Matt Molloy

09-21-2004, 02:53 AM

Grabbing someone's hand's in chi sao which is a just a drill does not prove or show anything (to me:) ).

Grabbing someone's hands in chi sao is setting yourself up for a battering. :dead:

Almost as daft as grabbing hold of a good aikidoka's wrist and saying "Aha! I have you! You can't make me let go now!"

:D

I train both systems. They are both very good and seem to blend (forgive the pun) well together.

Cheers,

Matt.

SeiserL

09-21-2004, 08:13 AM

Mark,

You show a deep understanding of Wing Chun. I couldn't agree with you more on that level.

Compliments and appreciation.

Chris Bull

09-21-2004, 05:04 PM

...We have similiar exercises in Wing Chun, except we hold the shape instead of dropping the arm and relax while our partner presses on it...

Is this the "unbendable arm" exercise in Aikido?

Thanks for your posts Mark, it's nice to see someone speak with a degree of experience on Wing Chun. Are you practising Aikido in Japan currently, or were you put off by your experience with this teacher? Regarding what you say about Aikidoka "training an art form rather than training to fight", I tend to disagree.

Unless we fight with no absolutely rules, then we can never be truly engaged in combat, rather we are doing an approximation of combat. We can get quite close to "actual combat" by fighting with limited rules, where strikes, clinches and groundwork may all play a part, but this is not something we see in many arts, as sparring tends to be limited to the type of fighting seen in that style (e.g. normally no strikes in BJJ sparring, and no groundwork in Muay Thai sparring).

By this logic, I would argue that most martial arts teach an art form rather than a way of fighting. However, it is the essence of the art is the link to its use in fighting, and this is especially true of Aikido. Sensitivity, body movement, balance, etc. If it is a practitioners intention to train Aikido for "fighting" (I should probably say "self defence"), then they must understand these attributes in the context of using them against a resisting opponent. The principles remain exactly the same, it's just the execution may change slightly. This is where I suppose a little sparring couldn't hurt ;)

Of course, we must accept that a large proportion of Aikido students are simply not that interested in fighting, and will probably never get into a fight for the rest of their lives. This is something that many people cannot seem to understand about it when they critisize Aikido. Which is entirely their loss.

Please accept my apologies if I am talking bollocks. I am certainly no expert.

Thanks,
Chris

unique

09-21-2004, 06:00 PM

:ki: hello all;
Just as a reminder, please read this quote carefully:
"The Way of a Warrior is based on humanity, love, and sincerity; the heart of martial valor is true bravery, wisdom, love, and friendship. Emphasis on the physical aspects of warriorship is futile, for the power of the body is always limited." Morihei Ueshiba

Sincerely yours;

Khalid Allahou
Mushin AIKI Kuwait
:ai: :ki: :do:

Jorx

09-22-2004, 12:08 AM

Grabbing someone's hands in chi sao is setting yourself up for a battering.

Matt I'm sorry but you missed my point a little. My point was that NOR grabbing someones hand NOR battering NOR throwing someone while doing chisao does not show or prove anything to me. It's a drill.

Learning complex trapping reflexes from a self-defence point of view has proved quite unefficent method. While all those drills can be very fun and skilldemanding they do not have much to do with real fighting.

Quite many Wing Chun Wing Tsun JKD etc schools include some form of free fighting. And EVEN if there are 2 high level practioners sparring freely, the trapping is the first thing to go out of the window...

Matt Molloy

09-22-2004, 07:36 AM

Matt I'm sorry but you missed my point a little. My point was that NOR grabbing someones hand NOR battering NOR throwing someone while doing chisao does not show or prove anything to me. It's a drill.

And I think you missed that I was agreeing with you somewhat. Of course it's a drill but grabbing someone's hands whilst doing it is a bit daft as one would only be setting oneself up for a fall within the context of the drill.

Learning complex trapping reflexes from a self-defence point of view has proved quite unefficent method. While all those drills can be very fun and skilldemanding they do not have much to do with real fighting.

And if chi sao were just about learning "complex trapping reflexes" then it would probably not be the best exercise. I think if you study it a little more, you will find that it's a bit more than that.

Quite many Wing Chun Wing Tsun JKD etc schools include some form of free fighting. And EVEN if there are 2 high level practioners sparring freely, the trapping is the first thing to go out of the window...

It depends on what you mean by trapping. Perhaps you might try looking at the way they redirect each others energy to realise what chi sao is all about.

Cheers,

Matt.

Duval Culpepper

09-23-2004, 05:06 PM

I've been studying Aikido for about two years (5th kyu). With this said, I took a couple of Wing Chun classes this week. While I can see the practical applications of it, and the lethality of its strikes, I felt a lot more "scared" than when I was doing Aikido. The complete lack of movement is very strange to transition to from Aikido.

Not doing a tenkan around a roundhouse punch/hook, was wierd also. Although the stance I was instructed to use gave me a significant amount of balance, this was the first time my own physical strength ever really played apart in whether or not I was going to live through a fight. In Aikido atleast (I'd studied Karate for a while before hand.)

For the longest while after I started studying Aikido, the fact of being afraid of a larger/stronger opponent never really effected whether or not I'd consider entering into a physical confrontation with another. However, with Wing Chun...until you are very skilled, you're going to get into trouble at a frat party if a altercation escalates past words. (Speaking from a teenage point of view.)

Of course, this is true of any MA. But, bigons.

EDIT: Oh, I'm 18 now. Guess I'm not a teenager anymore...Brutal.