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NagaBaba
03-23-2010, 08:58 PM
Somebody sent me a link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vFcqKoEXPQ&feature=player_embedded#

Now I understand what AIKI is. I was laughing so hard, tears like waterfall, abdominal muscles painful, still can't believe what I saw....the uke's voices are incredible!!!! It made my day - non, non not day, a month! :D

Walter Martindale
03-23-2010, 10:02 PM
Somebody sent me a link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vFcqKoEXPQ&feature=player_embedded#

Now I understand what AIKI is. I was laughing so hard, tears like waterfall, abdominal muscles painful, still can't believe what I saw....the uke's voices are incredible!!!! It made my day - non, non not day, a month! :D

Couldn't watch the whole thing. AAAAGGHHHH
I think I'd seen this bs before - the frauds that give aikido a bad name!!
W

Michael Hackett
03-23-2010, 10:03 PM
Wow! Never thought I'd see the day when I agreed with Scezepan.

crbateman
03-23-2010, 10:16 PM
Heavy sigh... :(

ramenboy
03-23-2010, 11:02 PM
what in the....

Abasan
03-24-2010, 12:49 AM
Some people never learn. If they don't understand it, they think its not real. Get out of the cave.

Walter, NZ is not far from here. Drop by this Sunday and give him your best shot. Tell him its fake.

Michael Hackett
03-24-2010, 02:10 AM
Ahmad,

I'm one of those who doesn't understand it and thinks it's fake. Please try to disabuse me of my opinion. Have you experienced what he's doing yourself? Can you do it? Can any of his students do it? Tell us about your experiences or of your knowledge of Hasim Sensei's skill as demonstrated on this video clip.

Chris Li
03-24-2010, 02:48 AM
Ahmad,

I'm one of those who doesn't understand it and thinks it's fake. Please try to disabuse me of my opinion. Have you experienced what he's doing yourself? Can you do it? Can any of his students do it? Tell us about your experiences or of your knowledge of Hasim Sensei's skill as demonstrated on this video clip.

Looks like he's one of Takeda Yoshinobu's students:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltf6-Qqc40Y&feature=related

I talked to another Yamaguchi Seigo student (of about the same vintage as Takeda) about this kind of thing last year - he started with "hypnotism" and "brain washing", and it went downhill from there :-).

Best,

Chris

bulevardi
03-24-2010, 04:52 AM
He's probably using his Ki power. If you don't understand Ki, you think it's fake. You have to practice Ki exercises a bit longer to achieve the same state of being.
Ueshiba had the same surrealistic powers, you guys are laughing with him too?

Abasan
03-24-2010, 05:01 AM
Michael, I understand where you come from. Believe me, I've not the patience for a lot of crap that goes around in the martial arts world.

To give you a perspective, I met Hakim sensei in 2001 in Singapore. Back then I was practising Hombu mould aikikai. During those days, either you fall or I break something of yours. I sought Hakim sensei in Singapore because he came with a contingent of commando looking dudes. Apparently they were the Indonesian Presidential Guards. At that point he was teaching them and the military police for a period of several years.

So I thought it would be fun to see what an army coach had to offer. He took me by surprise. Very soft, very elusive and ultimately impossible to resist. That is my best description.

In 2001, he hasn't even begun to exhibit these 'hocus pocus aiki' aikido yet. At that point in his life, his background was Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Yoshinkan, Daitoryu and Aikikai. It was after that he also studied under a lineage of Shin Shin Toitsu.

For a fact, most of the 'trick's' that he performs are basic Daitoryu Aiki stuff. Its very standard fare if you youtube Daitoryu a lot. Big difference here, uke doesn't fall into line because of anticipation of pain. They fall in line because it just happens. Don't ask me why.

As for the no touch. Its not waza. You don't feel like you get hit by an invisible force or something like that. He's not manipulating you remotely. Its just akin to you taking a step unto floor that suddenly isn't there. Its not magic.

Can I do it? Hardly. That's why I'm training as often as I can. He lives in another country after all and I don't print money on trees. Can his students do it. Yes. Several of them are able to do it, albeit to a lesser degree.

I'm not here as a messenger of truth or his Publicity Manager... I only cry foul if what someone says is different from what I understand it to be. There are no words that can teach you Aikido. You need to feel it yourself. Similarly here, no words I say will convince you. You are welcome to try it and make your own decision. A lot of people have done that.

Trust me, even in his country many people call him crazy. And this is Indonesia, where the spiritual elements of martial arts especially in Silat is a given.

With regards to Takeda sensei. Yes, sensei Hakim has attended classes at Takeda's home dojo. But he is not formally a student of his. That in itself is rare. Takeda sensei also visited Hakim sensei's dojo last year or the year before and that too is rare.

I too just trained with a sensei who was a long standing Yamaguichi student, just this couple of days back. No doubt, his students do not all feel or do aikido the way Yamaguichi does. Tissier, Endo, Takeda... they are all different yes? Is there a point? Osensei's students all came out different too. Yet, in what Takeda sensei does, I can see some similarities with Yamaguichi. So too in Endo sensei. Everyone picks up what comes easiest to them first. Takeda's art is soft and inviting. Do not mistake it for impractical. As for the no touch performances that he does... its been taken out of context.

What I'm going to say next is probably going to get me flamed for eternity...
Takeda sensei probably has hundreds of students under his various dojo's. Canada, Germany, Japan and Australia... that I can think off the top of my head. Maybe 90% of his students don't understand what he's doing and maybe only 1% can actually do what he does. Who said learning Aiki was easy? Is teaching it any easier?

The other thing is... if teaching Aiki is hard and learning it is harder, if that remains the emphasis of Aikido, there won't be many students left. That doesn't augur well for an international organisation you would think.

If I digress, I apologise. I just write as the thoughts come out. Anyway, Sensei Hakim teaches that we should make Spirit the center of our practice.
Aiki no Kokoro. The heart of Aiki.

Marc Abrams
03-24-2010, 08:07 AM
I see a couple of different "issues" here. One, this teacher has good structure and appears to move well while maintaining structure. This, to me, is a hallmark of developing and utilizing good energy. Two, his students have taken to amplifying the effects of experiencing energy. This is a martially moronic thing to do. It would have been better to have seen them try and "ground out" the energy or at least, maintain their structure and creating safe distance. Three, his students are taking ukemi, as opposed to not having a choice in the matter. Four, I would like to see this teacher handle a well-trained martial artist employing sincere and effective attacks. I am not suggesting that this teacher would not be able to respond effectively, but I would be curious to see what that video clip would look like.

Marc Abrams

Michael Douglas
03-24-2010, 09:48 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vFcqKoEXPQ&feature=player_embedded#
That one won't play for me ... is it similar to this one?
http://www.youtube.com/user/willustration#p/u/4/iuPHFSrC_zw

NagaBaba
03-24-2010, 10:11 AM
Couldn't watch the whole thing. AAAAGGHHHH
I think I'd seen this bs before - the frauds that give aikido a bad name!!
W
No Walter, you are wrong!!

this is NOT aikido :D

NagaBaba
03-24-2010, 10:15 AM
That one won't play for me ... is it similar to this one?
http://www.youtube.com/user/willustration#p/u/4/iuPHFSrC_zw
Not at all similar. You should looking for his video with name "AIKI".

NagaBaba
03-24-2010, 10:32 AM
For a fact, most of the 'trick's' that he performs are basic Daitoryu Aiki stuff. Its very standard fare if you youtube Daitoryu a lot. Big difference here, uke doesn't fall into line because of anticipation of pain. They fall in line because it just happens. Don't ask me why..
Until today I read your posts with great interest. I can't belive you are seriously writing this opinion. It is simply not credible. There is nothing there to make them scream like a crazy.I think they lost their minds.


If I digress, I apologise. I just write as the thoughts come out. Anyway, Sensei Hakim teaches that we should make Spirit the center of our practice.
Aiki no Kokoro. The heart of Aiki.
Me I think he brainwashed them and created a kind of sect. There is another 'master' in France - G.Blaize who is doing even more horrible things. But he is a direct student of Hikitsushi sensei.

Marc Abrams
03-24-2010, 10:55 AM
Until today I read your posts with great interest. I can't belive you are seriously writing this opinion. It is simply not credible. There is nothing there to make them scream like a crazy.I think they lost their minds.

Me I think he brainwashed them and created a kind of sect. There is another 'master' in France - G.Blaize who is doing even more horrible things. But he is a direct student of Hikitsushi sensei.

Szczepan:

We are always entitled to our own opinions of everything. That gentleman made a sincere offer for you to experience first hand so that your opinions are based upon a real-life encounter. I always welcome opportunities to experience as much as I can directly. This has enabled me to call B.S. what it really is. I have also experienced stuff that is "beyond my pay grade" to understand, while recognizing that something highly unique and unusual has happened. I have my preliminary opinion of what I saw, and would love to experience it in person. I have experienced things recently with Kenji Ushiro Sensei that I initially discounted, attempted to experience otherwise, and ended up acknowledging that something happened beyond what I thought I believed could happen.

As we get older, we can either shut our minds down, or open them up, based upon the totality of our life experiences. I frankly prefer to come up with a preliminary hypothesis and test it out if I can.

Respectfully,

Marc Abrams

Michael Hackett
03-24-2010, 12:36 PM
Ahmed,

Thank you for the reply. I've reviewed the video several times now and I remain skeptical. Hakim Sensei has terrific posture and small movement, but four points jumped out at me.

At :54 Uke displays visible pain and makes sounds to suggest that he is at least uncomfortable. At that point he is simply grasping the sleeve of the gi and Hakim Sensei is hardly moving.

At 1:10 Hakim Sensei is moving a line of uke. I can understand the first uke in line perhaps feeling a pain, but the next two are reacting as if they had direct contact with Hakim Sensei. They are only holding the shoulders of the uke ahead of them.

At 1:54 Hakim Sensei performs some sort of kokyunage to extreme effect, suggesting a strong collusion by Uke.

At 2:58 Uke displays a lack of physical control and pain without being in any contact with Hakim Sensei.

I've had the pleasure of putting hands on several shihan who did incredible things. Kondo Sensei locked my whole body with a ryotedori grasp. Ikeda Sensei threw me effortlessly by merely twisting his wrist less than an inch. Matsuoka Sensei threw me by pointing at the mat and dropping his weight inperceptibly. At the time, I was so new at Aikido I didn't know that you could collude with Nage so those things really happened to me. Consequently I don't doubt that Hakim Sensei can do some amazing things, but I have serious doubts about some of the things captured in the video.

I don't imagine that I will ever get to Indonesia to feel it first hand, but what is visible on the video simply defies a rational explanation. I appreciate your attempt to explain your experience, but I remain on the roster of the non-believers.

Fred Little
03-24-2010, 12:42 PM
There is another 'master' in France - G.Blaize who is doing even more horrible things. But he is a direct student of Hikitsushi sensei.

Having taken a look at a few clips of Gerard Blaize on YouTube, I would have to say that there is very little relationship between what he is doing and what the gentleman in the first clip is doing, and it is a mystery to me what relevance M. Blaize has to this discussion, except to the extent that you dislike what he is doing even more and simply can't resist the opportunity to triple-down on the number of teachers outside the circle of whatever eminences you consider worthy of your more positive attention and tuition.:D

Best,

FL

NagaBaba
03-24-2010, 03:12 PM
Having taken a look at a few clips of Gerard Blaize on YouTube, I would have to say that there is very little relationship between what he is doing and what the gentleman in the first clip is doing, and it is a mystery to me what relevance M. Blaize has to this discussion, except to the extent that you dislike what he is doing even more and simply can't resist the opportunity to triple-down on the number of teachers outside the circle of whatever eminences you consider worthy of your more positive attention and tuition.:D

Best,

FL
I'm not referring to his video on youtube. Few years ago I saw the tv program diffused on east coast. We could see him throwing his uke from a distance about 10 feet, uke not only fall dawn, but stay on the ground squirming his body in the sort of convulsions and couldn’t get up.Then they went to Japan, to Hikitsushi sensei dojo, where sensei attempted to throw cameraman from a distance – with no success.

Fred Little
03-24-2010, 07:28 PM
I'm not referring to his video on youtube. Few years ago I saw the tv program diffused on east coast. We could see him throwing his uke from a distance about 10 feet, uke not only fall dawn, but stay on the ground squirming his body in the sort of convulsions and couldn't get up.Then they went to Japan, to Hikitsushi sensei dojo, where sensei attempted to throw cameraman from a distance -- with no success.

Perhaps the program you're referring to is one of the DVDs in this set? (http://www.amazon.com/Aikido-3-DVD-Box-Set/dp/B000DZ6VT6)

Many years ago, I saw a dan-level student of Hikitsuchi engaged in tachi-dori practice become very upset with his training partner, as he felt her attacks were insufficiently sincere. He insisted that if she gave him a sincere attack, he could perform tachidori with his eyes closed. He was quite insistent. She was somewhat reluctant. He closed his eyes. She attacked, quite well, with good speed and great sincerity. Bonk!

Oh well. Sometimes things work as if by magic. That's wonderful. Expecting magic to work? Not so wonderful.

On the other hand, everyone I've encountered who had body mechanics like those in the video had a whole bunch of something else in his back pocket. Even the ones with overly dramatic uke.

Maybe your personal experience has been different.

Best,

FL

Zach Trent
03-24-2010, 08:15 PM
Not going to add anything earth shattering, but I've stopped being too judgemental of Aikido videos because seeing Aikido on youtube kept me out of the dojo for about four years.

I would watch Aikido on youtube and dismiss it as phoney. Then I ran out of cash for Karate and tried Aikido because it was cheaper.

That was three years ago and now I'm a healthy addict of Aikido. Anyway, I learned to stop poking fun of people in videos- for the most part people are not idiots and if they are practicing that way it is for a reason- they are either learning a martial art or perhaps they learning something about themselves.

You gotta know, if those guys are paying for Aikido lessons they aren't gonna put up with fake crap just to get on youtube, right?

Either way- it isn't wise to call them fools.

Abasan
03-24-2010, 08:42 PM
Szczepan,

I appreciate your candor and I understand you're a very realist person from all your previous posts. I also know you're a genuine person so I don't really mind your questioning. I wouldn't convert from a video and I don't expect you to. Geographical distance is a problem so, there's no way for you to experience this first hand. But there are plenty of great people around the world with similar skills, and maybe one day you'll meet one of them. They might probably do the same thing you see today and it might even work with you. Perhaps then you might come to a conclusion, that yes... there are things out there that do not look real but are in fact quite so. Until then you should continue disbelieving, because then you'll be keeping it real.

Marc,

Kenji Ushiro predominantly use Ashi Awase to unbalance his opponents (before contact) and then he proceeds to strike them. To most people who see this, they think the opponents are afraid of being striked by a ranking sensei and so they flinch. Most would attest to this if you ask them. Aiki is just obeying natural law. In this form, most would flinch as an automatic reaction, rather than a perceived reaction to an incoming strike. Its not magic, but its not preconditioned.

Michael,
1. I know, its ridiculous. Actually its not painful but more like a cramp. Body compression. Sort of when you find you have put yourself in a ludicrous position and don't know how to get out. And all you have to do is to release your stupid fingers but it won't listen to you.

2. I feel a bit presumptuous in adding a link of Okamoto Sensei DR in here... its like trying to hide behind a big brand name and say that you're doing the same thing as them. But around the 1.17 mark you can see something similar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4qXVdGKn9k
I'm not sure if he is credible in your eyes, but there are many DR practitioners in the US who can attest to his abilities.
How I feel at the back end of the line? It works quite well if you invest energy into the contact. But if you stand there disconnected from the uke in front, you won't feel much most times. Before you jump on that, the line demonstration is just that, a demonstration of connectivity. An exercise if you will that probably has no real practicality until you meet a queue of angry children holding hands to practice on. How I would feel at the front? There is no escape.

3. This stuff, I think most sensei's can demonstrate to you. Granted, they're not holding on to their dear life and they're taking ukemi. Most kokyunage is done in that manner one would think. The effect of someone not proficient in ukemi getting thrown this way is not what you expect. They don't fly or roll, usually I just see them hanging to sensei's sleeves until it rips or hands, but fall they do. Most times on their face.

4. He wasn't in pain. The feeling is akin to walking by your key holder on the wall, reaching for it and missing. And as you adjust your hands to grab it, the distance matches you imperceptibly until your weight collapses on you.

Ok. Hopefully whatever I'm doing in this Q&A session isn't wasting anyone's time. I'm only sharing what I'm capable of understanding. I know my knowledge and ability is limited so I'm afraid that I won't be able to give you a more accurate account.

In learning, we are taught that we can do it in 3 ways. We can learn through.
1. Seeing
2. Listening/reading
3. Feeling/doing
The 1st and 2nd correlates closely with theoretical knowledge, skill and form. Whilst the 3rd applies on muscle memory and instinct.
I'm a firm advocate that learning Aikido requires all 3 methods to be in place.

Lastly, hopefully I will have a more current an applicable clip to show you after this Sunday. I've tried getting some silat boys to come test him out, and a street fighter (my arnis teacher) to try him out. But they're not available that day somehow or rather. I've a guy with some systema and BJJ skills come over for the seminar as well, but I would say that he won't be a fair representative of those arts really. So its really a dilemma. You guys won't believe that he can do this to a real martial arts expert. I've seen him with those experts and those that have tried it out have no questions on his ability.

It all boils down to this. Has he something to teach me? Yes. Has he something to teach you? I wouldn't know. I think I can leave it at that and still be fair.

Gorgeous George
03-24-2010, 09:03 PM
2. I feel a bit presumptuous in adding a link of Okamoto Sensei DR in here... its like trying to hide behind a big brand name and say that you're doing the same thing as them. But around the 1.17 mark you can see something similar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4qXVdGKn9k

I've seen that clip before, and i watched it closely - most importantly the part where there is a line of people holding onto each other, he moves the first one, and they all end up going over...

I believe that it's legitimate (in this case): not only because he actually touches the people, and because the bit you reference (where he is lifted up by a load of people) is the same kind of thing i've seen the likes of Gozo Shioda and Koichi Tohei doing - but because of the way they react: compare the reaction of his ukes to the reaction of the people to the same thing in this clip (about 2 minutes in):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNAWff9Daqg

(Incidentally: when it came to a real fight, he didn't resort to 'ki balls' or whatever -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djUKqxGWj_Y&feature=related)

I humbly suggest that his students paying for fake crap to get on YouTube.



EDIT: Here's a clip of the same Daito-Ryu guy doing the thing with an 'outsider':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8BcRNQIJIM&feature=related

Michael Hackett
03-24-2010, 11:16 PM
Ahmad,

Thank you for taking all the time to answer my questions. Having felt some "magic" from DR people, I don't discount strange things on the mat, but still have trouble with the "no touch" kinds of things that we see on video clips.

Marc Abrams
03-25-2010, 08:59 AM
Marc,

Kenji Ushiro predominantly use Ashi Awase to unbalance his opponents (before contact) and then he proceeds to strike them. To most people who see this, they think the opponents are afraid of being striked by a ranking sensei and so they flinch. Most would attest to this if you ask them. Aiki is just obeying natural law. In this form, most would flinch as an automatic reaction, rather than a perceived reaction to an incoming strike. Its not magic, but its not preconditioned.



Ahmad:

Actually, Ushiro Sensei uses his ki before any movement actually occurs. As a direct student of Ushiro Sensei, I can personally attest to this experience. It is simply impossible to convey what happens on a video. What you assume to be ashi awase, is profoundly below the level with which he is functioning at. That was why I advocated that a person reserve final judgment until a person has some first hand experience with a teacher. The "flinch" experience is best described by one of Ledyard Sensei's "Aiki Koans"-> What is the timing of already? The person experiences "already" after it is way too late. Personally observing this type of interaction is interesting because it looks as if Ushiro Sensei's movements are simply too slow for a person to not be able to track his movement. Unlike most Aikido practice, the people attacking him are well-trained attackers who would simply overwhelm most Aikidoka with their attacks. Practicing with these people is always a humbling experience that forces you to have to always advance the level of your own personal practice in order to get better. Needless to say, it is having a very positive impact upon my Aikido!

Marc Abrams

mickeygelum
03-25-2010, 10:01 AM
" Look Maw... I traded the cow for some magic beans... "

:eek:

stan baker
03-25-2010, 07:02 PM
most of that stuff is bs

stan

stan baker
03-25-2010, 07:07 PM
Hi Marc
I do not agree with you, I think they are reacting because of fear.

stan

Kevin Leavitt
03-25-2010, 07:17 PM
I'll stop short of saying what Ushiro is doing, as to be honest I don't really know at the level of splitting hairs that is being discussed.

I will tell you that I was not reacting out of fear at all.

I would attack Ushiro Sensei and he would be present in a way that most folks simply are not before I would move in most cases. He'd shut down my attacks before I even be able to launch them. In essence in most cases it was simply stupid on my part to even attack him as I had no tactical advantage whatsoever.

In most cases it would turn into a subtle chess match of very slight movements of the eyes, slight shifts in balance, posture or whatever in an attempt to mask what I wanted to do.

Ushiro Sensei would leave an opening, bait me to take it, of course, I'd honestly believe that I'd found an opening and take it only to find out after I committed that it was not to be and he'd move to take advantage of my mistake.

Of course, there were also the internal demonstrations of aiki as well, but that was sometimes something else, also combined with some other influences as wel...fascinating indeed to be made to do stuff you don't want to do.

Anyway, whatever it is he does, it was not based on fear at all.

Abasan
03-25-2010, 07:19 PM
Marc,

you are very lucky to have studied under such a teacher. If I'm not mistaken he also threw people around with his Aiki skills in the Aiki Expo several years back. Though the techniques look crude the Aiki doesn't.

I mentioned predominantly (use ashi awase) but I can believe that he is capable of more than that. As I mentioned, its just difficult to understand unless you're feeling it yourself.

Marc Abrams
03-25-2010, 09:04 PM
Stan:

You are speaking from a position of no first-hand knowledge. Ushiro Sensei will be at my dojo in May. Come down and find out for yourself. Kevin certainly did and gave a honest answer as to what he experienced FIRST HAND. You now have two people with direct experience who plainly say that you are wrong. You can either test your hypothesis out or continue to stand behind a conclusion based upon insufficient information.

Ahmad:

I was VERY FORTUNATE to meet Ushiro Sensei at the first US Aiki Expo. His son was sporting a broken wrist so he asked for people with a karate background to volunteer to be "crash-test dummies". I was the first person to raise his hand. About one millisecond into trying to punch him, I knew that I was in a new world! Even luckier, was that even though we did not speak the same language, there was a positive vibe with my wife and I and Ushiro Sensei and his son and daughter. Our friendship deepened over the next eight years. More importantly, the changes that I saw in him amazed me. He was an amazing martial artist to begin with and his improvements were all the more stunning. I directly petitioned him to become a direct student of his. This decision has been a profoundly positive one for my budo development. It is requiring that I travel to Japan several times a year, in addition to bringing him to the US several times a year. I look at this as a very important investment in my personal development. Ushiro Sensei practices bujutsu. What looks to be crude are actually remarkably refined, soft, efficient and effective movements that can be deadly. His sense of Aiki, his softness and his use of Ki is beyond anyone else I have had direct experience with. The only person who I perceived to be at a similar level was the head of Systema.

Videos are a mixed bag. Sometimes they illuminate, while other times, obscure what is really happening. I try and create a list of hypotheses that I then look to verify (hopefully in person). I have eaten my feet enough times by jumping to early, erroneous conclusions, that I have jokingly referred to my chronic athletes foot-in-the-mouth disease. I am hoping that I am gaining some wisdom with age.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

stan baker
03-25-2010, 09:33 PM
Hi Marc
ok I will check it out

stan

guillermo santos
03-25-2010, 10:13 PM
When you are a begginer to practice Aiki, you will not be fascinated to the techniques when you practice Karate, Judo or Aikido. Why, it look all scripted with good choreography. This is my first impression. I studied Aikido in Kanagawa for almost 4 years, saw the " No touch" technique at Kamakura dojo and at the Nippon Budokan. Very funny!!!
I moved here in Hokkaido last 2001, the home of " Aiki" and enrolled in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai and received my shodan but honestly I cannot do any Aiki, I thinked I am not impressed with the teaching of my master. I decided to quit this Dojo and transfered to another Daito-ryu master who is really good in Aiki technique and this is not scripted because on the first day of my practice, I grab his hand and find myself lying on the ground in just a couple of seconds.
He always explained throw your opponent by your eyes and direct your energy to the shoulder and let it pass to the throat into the base of the spine of your opponent. This always a puzzle, until we made our own group in our city remembering all his teaching.
We continue to do research on our Aiki and even our white belt members can do some Aiki techniques. Some Masters, don't teach you the reason behind why the technique works. In our group it should be scientifically explained because this is only a part of the Physical and Mental level of learning Aiki nothing especial.
I believe if you master the physical and mental level of training of Aiki, you have to start practicing the spiritual level to understand the " No touch technique" because it cannot be explained with physical and mental senses alone, We have to balances our body, soul and spirit to understand this.
Try to unbalance your opponent using one finger and if he fell down , welcome to the world of Aiki!! Ganbatte!!!!

stan baker
03-26-2010, 06:06 AM
Hi Guillermo
Big deal it just means that your rooting is not that good. If your rooting is good they can still throw you but it will not be so easy. I practice with the top guys in the world.

stan

guillermo santos
03-26-2010, 08:35 AM
Hi Guillermo
Big deal it just means that your rooting is not that good. If your rooting is good they can still throw you but it will not be so easy. I practice with the top guys in the world.

stan

Hi Stan,
Yes, I agree to you that my rooting is not that good , I cannot imagined why an Aiki master that is only less than 5 feet tall, age 70, that weighs aroud 55 kilos, throw me like a piece of empty can. I hope you can experience this too, Stan
Good luck to your practice with the toppest guys in the world.

NagaBaba
03-26-2010, 09:11 AM
you have to start practicing the spiritual level to understand the " No touch technique" because it cannot be explained with physical and mental senses alone, We have to balances our body, soul and spirit to understand this.
So this is a magic!!!
Please, use your common sense....
I think you watched too much Harry Potter movies :(

NagaBaba
03-26-2010, 09:29 AM
Videos are a mixed bag. Sometimes they illuminate, while other times, obscure what is really happening. I try and create a list of hypotheses that I then look to verify (hopefully in person). I have eaten my feet enough times by jumping to early, erroneous conclusions, that I have jokingly referred to my chronic athletes foot-in-the-mouth disease. I am hoping that I am gaining some wisdom with age.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Hi Marc,
I usually don't comment on videos. However what happens here is very disrespectful.
With enough gallons of sweat on the tatami, one can very precisely make correct judgment even from video what level represent an instructor. I.e. if I look at the video of you and then at the video of let’s say Saotome sensei, I can easily say which one is a direct student of the Founder. :D :p

The behavior of the students - they are not only faking all this stuff but making from a dojo (which is a place for serious practice) kind of circus for the mob.
Also, teacher behavior is disrespectful to the Art, as he allows for such behavior in his dojo.
I'm far from being fanatic of traditionalism in the dojo, but the etiquette has an important place.

Marc Abrams
03-26-2010, 10:46 AM
Hi Marc,
I usually don't comment on videos. However what happens here is very disrespectful.
With enough gallons of sweat on the tatami, one can very precisely make correct judgment even from video what level represent an instructor. I.e. if I look at the video of you and then at the video of let's say Saotome sensei, I can easily say which one is a direct student of the Founder. :D :p

The behavior of the students - they are not only faking all this stuff but making from a dojo (which is a place for serious practice) kind of circus for the mob.
Also, teacher behavior is disrespectful to the Art, as he allows for such behavior in his dojo.
I'm far from being fanatic of traditionalism in the dojo, but the etiquette has an important place.

Szczepan:

I generally agree with what you are saying. I think that a majority of your hypotheses regarding that video clip would be the same/similar. I have eaten my foot enough times by not testing out the hypotheses first, that I have become a little more reserved. My students get an earful from me whenever they try and collude with what I am doing. If they are instructed to attack in a certain manner, I fully expect them to do so. I do not want them to learn bad habits by trying to make me look good. My hypothesis is that this teacher does use good Ki. I am not a fan of advocating that students amplify their experience of it and allow themselves to become future victims. That is another hypothesis of mine. I hope to test them out one day.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

ChrisHein
03-26-2010, 11:40 AM
This video, and these skills are easy to understand. It's simply a form of mind control. The study of hypnotism will provide the answers to many of the questions that are arising here.

It's not "fake", because (I don't believe) he has prearranged what is going to happen to make it look a certain way. However the students believe in their minds what their teacher is going to do to them, so it happens.

Using the word "ki" or "chi" can easily be applied to this situation. The teacher uses his intent (mental ki/chi) to direct the students minds to do his bidding.

Kevin's experience can be explained in much the same way. I've done the same thing with a brand new Aikido student once. You give the student a set of rules to play by, then you manipulate the ways in which the student can attack you, by those rules, and create openings, or close them off. Making someone feel as if they cannot attack, or that their only attack is a weak one.

Quickly you might say, there were no rules provided. But of course there were. You wouldn't openly disrespect this man, so there are a ton of rules that go along with that. You wouldn't actually try to harm the man so there are a set of rules there. There are all kinds of things that happen when you "go to see" what someone is up to. An enormous set of protocols, expectations, and rules that come with civil interaction.

If your will is strong enough (and you are a jerk), when you went to see someone like this, you would simply kick them as hard as you could. But because of the social context of such a meeting, you won't do it.

This is why people with these skills cannot use them in a sporting event. A sporting event has a different social context, so you can just kick someone as hard as possible. Mind control of this type is very difficult if not impossible in a sport context.

This is an example of mind control, and it is a powerful tool. Nothing fake about it, but it's not magic either.

Marc Abrams
03-26-2010, 12:09 PM
This video, and these skills are easy to understand. It's simply a form of mind control. The study of hypnotism will provide the answers to many of the questions that are arising here.

It's not "fake", because (I don't believe) he has prearranged what is going to happen to make it look a certain way. However the students believe in their minds what their teacher is going to do to them, so it happens.

Using the word "ki" or "chi" can easily be applied to this situation. The teacher uses his intent (mental ki/chi) to direct the students minds to do his bidding.

Kevin's experience can be explained in much the same way. I've done the same thing with a brand new Aikido student once. You give the student a set of rules to play by, then you manipulate the ways in which the student can attack you, by those rules, and create openings, or close them off. Making someone feel as if they cannot attack, or that their only attack is a weak one.

Quickly you might say, there were no rules provided. But of course there were. You wouldn't openly disrespect this man, so there are a ton of rules that go along with that. You wouldn't actually try to harm the man so there are a set of rules there. There are all kinds of things that happen when you "go to see" what someone is up to. An enormous set of protocols, expectations, and rules that come with civil interaction.

If your will is strong enough (and you are a jerk), when you went to see someone like this, you would simply kick them as hard as you could. But because of the social context of such a meeting, you won't do it.

This is why people with these skills cannot use them in a sporting event. A sporting event has a different social context, so you can just kick someone as hard as possible. Mind control of this type is very difficult if not impossible in a sport context.

This is an example of mind control, and it is a powerful tool. Nothing fake about it, but it's not magic either.

Chris:

Do you have any training in hypnotism? My guess is not. Your hypothesis regarding Kevin is simply wrong. I speak from both a martial perspective and as a licensed psychologist with substantial knowledge and understanding of the field of hypnosis.

Ushiro Sensei is one of few people I know that do not expect the "rules" that you allude to. You just need to be prepared to accept that with which you choose to put out there. He was involved in sports karate for many, many years and has evolved to a level that he enjoys people who try and use that low level of budo. Those people (including K1 & other national sports karate champions) end up looking like rank beginners when they do kumite with him.

Ki has nothing to do with a hypnotic process. If you have not truly experienced the difference between the two, then you have a wonderful area to pursue and test out. It's a great opportunity for you to discover that which is hidden in plain sight. Stan has decided to test his believes out in person. Would love to meet you there as well!

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Walter Martindale
03-26-2010, 01:23 PM
Some people never learn. If they don't understand it, they think its not real. Get out of the cave.

Walter, NZ is not far from here. Drop by this Sunday and give him your best shot. Tell him its fake.

Not any time soon. Can barely afford to pay the rent, let alone hop on an aircraft on short notice. As well, I'm about 30 years too old to do those sorts of challenges, but - come on - the third guy in the queue, holding onto the second guy's shoulders has to be acting..

W

ChrisHein
03-26-2010, 03:51 PM
. Those people (including K1 & other national sports karate champions) end up looking like rank beginners when they do kumite with him.
Marc Abrams

I would love to see footage of this. Not because I believe it didnt' happen, but because I'd bet that it happened in a way that is unlike a sport match, but instead was a demonstration, which has a different context.

Marc, I don't think you are able to understand my point. People are constantly subjecting themselves to social confines. Lack of understanding this is what allows others to take advantage of your social confines. As a licensed psychologist, you should understand this better then most. To say Ushiro Sensei didn't expect to play by a set of rules is kind of silly. He didn't expect Kevin to pull out a gun and shoot him, because that would be crazy for him to do. Crazy because it doesn't fit into the normal dictates of this type of situations. That is a gross example of the kind of rule I'm talking about.

This is a powerful ability, I don't want you to think I'm saying otherwise. Again as a licensed psychologist you should understand how the power of the mind is amazing.

Kevin Leavitt
03-26-2010, 04:30 PM
I agree with Chris' point actually as there are "rules" and Ushiro does commmand the floor very well when he is teaching. Of course, he is a master instructor of the highest caliber.

That said, you also have to appreciate the level of what it is that he is doing and able to do within those constraints.

I chose to do or not do things simply because I realized that what was going to happen within those constraints came at a cost.

That said, yeah, I wasn't ambushing him, pulling out a superior weapon or anything like that.

But, I think that actually Marc is correct too concerning the Uke's in the video. How they acted may or may not dictate how good or not the instructor's skills are. I agree they are over acting for sure.

FWIW, IMO, I also felt that some of folks and Ushiro's seminar did the same. I didn't, and judged for myself based on my own interaction, and no I did not feel the need to over react or bail on anything needlessly.

Essentially if I did this or not, it did not matter to Ushiro Sensei if it were me given more realistic attacks or someone else, he responded the same way.

In addition, my experiences and Marc's...our interpretation, value, assessments may differ or we may not necessarily agree on EVERY POINT that Ushiro demonstrates. Of course not!

However, how I judge any encounter is what I am able to learn and take away from it, and I left working with Ushiro for a weekend with alot of learning!

So for me, that is enough to say "time well spent", and that I think is about as best of what you can ask for in your practice!

stan baker
03-26-2010, 05:51 PM
Hi Marc
The reason why Ushiro sensei makes it looks so easy, is because his opponents are not that good. For all the best people that I have seen they all make it look just like him. Nothing magical.

stan

Kevin Leavitt
03-26-2010, 06:11 PM
How do you define "good" Stan?

statisticool
03-26-2010, 06:14 PM
You give the student a set of rules to play by, then you manipulate the ways in which the student can attack you, by those rules,

You wouldn't openly disrespect this man, so there are a ton of rules that go along with that. You wouldn't actually try to harm the man so there are a set of rules there. There are all kinds of things that happen when you "go to see" what someone is up to. An enormous set of protocols, expectations, and rules that come with civil interaction.

If your will is strong enough (and you are a jerk), when you went to see someone like this, you would simply kick them as hard as you could. But because of the social context of such a meeting, you won't do it.

This is why people with these skills cannot use them in a sporting event. A sporting event has a different social context, so you can just kick someone as hard as possible. Mind control of this type is very difficult if not impossible in a sport context.


This. It would be funny if it wasn't sad.

A skeptic comes in, punches them in the face (ok, how about just tweaks their nose gently), and the skeptic's "negative energy" is suddenly the most powerful energy in the room. Then the cowards don't allow them to go to seminars. Something about a rice bowl applies I'm sure.

Justin

stan baker
03-26-2010, 07:54 PM
Hi Kevin
How do you define good

stan

Kevin Leavitt
03-26-2010, 08:28 PM
It depends on the Context and I asked you first since your the one that made the statement.

"The reason why Ushiro sensei makes it looks so easy, is because his opponents are not that good"

It is your responsibility to define the parameters of "good" since you brought that up. I have no idea what you mean by "good" so how do we have a conversation in this area unless you objectify it?

stan baker
03-27-2010, 06:23 AM
Hi Kevin
In the context of the videos, being good would be to offer some resistance. Most of what one sees in those aiki videos is ridiculous.
Ushiro stuff of what I have seen looks reasonable.

stan

Kevin Leavitt
03-27-2010, 07:45 AM
Thanks Stan. I think there are several things that can be broken down in the context of study and isolation of various things.

Resistance can be defined in a couple of different ways, which of course, it hard to define here without being together to have the physical conversation that must accompany it.

There is the resistance where I grab your rest and exert has much force as I can in an attempt to hold you there. This works on folks that will push back or focus all there physical and emotional energy on the area being grabbed.

There is no resistance at all, which, I think we see in the video...we call those "dive bunnies".

There is appropriate resistance were you try and maintain the proper feel and balance between proprioception and you try and root and take center. This is what I try and do constantly...that is, be a good uke.

Again, a guy like Ushiro, with his skill level is going to hold all the cards in this area, and rightfully so as it is his dojo and his floor. So it is not appropriate, IMO, to detour from that context and move on.

Of course, he is also happy to go that way if you'd wish, but then training turns into something else and it may not fair well for me...or maybe for him either...who knows.

I did push the edge of this a little with him and it would usually illicit a smile with him quickly changing up to something else...I think he loves this, but again, it is his show and someone is going to get hurt if you try and upstage him...and why would you do this with someone that is obviously there to teach you, you don't know very well, and is simply downright rude without a prior discussion of the parameters?

Then I think there is another kind of resistance...we like to call "aliveness". Nope, never went there with Ushiro. In fact, I have never gone there with ANY of the "experts" in internal martial arts.

I'd LOVE to...but it has not been appropriate in the venues.

SO is this what you are getting at?

I assure you that I pressed Ushiro as hard as I could within the appropriate boundaries and found him skillful enough to realize that there was something to learn from him.

For me this is enough to attend a seminar and go home feeling like I didn't waste my time.

Again, one of the questions that remains unanswered for me is "How do you apply all this cool guy training in aliveness"?

Some of those questions are starting to be answered for me. Got a hint of it this week from a Brazilian Red/black Belt named Sylvio Behring, who uses the word "leverage", but what is amazing is that he says "leverage" but then uses IS!

Rickson is in town next week and I am hoping to get with him. Master Behring says that Rickson has a much better grasp of "leverage" than he does.

Anyway, my hope is to link up with Dan Harden and maybe you one day so we can work through alot of this stuff. From everything I have heard, I am encouraged to see a more dynamic and alive application of this stuff as it applies to MMA.

Unfortunately, I will be unavailable for the next year so it will have to wait until I get back to the states!

Marc Abrams
03-27-2010, 08:44 AM
Hi Marc
The reason why Ushiro sensei makes it looks so easy, is because his opponents are not that good. For all the best people that I have seen they all make it look just like him. Nothing magical.

stan

Stan:

Reality speaks louder than words. When you come to the seminar, I will allow you to pick from some of those people who are on those video clips who you deem to be "not that good." I will then allow the two of you to engage in kumite. When you are aroused from a very deep sleep, I will then ask you to publish your comments about the person of your choosing.

I severely doubt that you are foolish enough to place yourself in that type of situation. I thought that my case of athletes foot-in-the-mouth disease was a bad, chronic case. You have outdone me! I take my hat off to you. I cannot understand why you would make such a foolish comment based upon zero knowledge. You should seriously consider the possibility of no longer making uninformed comments in this type of arena; in other words, you should quit while you are behind.

Marc Abrams

Mark Raugas
03-27-2010, 09:03 AM
Stan writes:

Big deal it just means that your rooting is not that good. If your rooting is good they can still throw you but it will not be so easy. I practice with the top guys in the world.

So, who are the top guys in the world? And are you working with them in a closed ecosystem or are you willing to go "push hands outside", i.e. cross hands with someone like Ushiro or one of the people Marc Abrams mentioned? I'm sure the people in all of those clips feel like they are training honestly. So, how do you judge yourself in a more reliable manner? Is it just because someone who is good says you are good? How different is that from the uke in any video you might not like (e.g., Yanagiryuken anyone)? Are there underlying assumptions to your practice as well?

Just throwing some questions out. And, a little tired of hearing about the "best in the world" without specific details. I'm willing to give lots of benefit of the doubt if there are videos you can point to as examples. Maybe a way to ask all those questions at once, in a simpler fashion, is to ask:

What can you specifically do and how is that aiki?

Marc Abrams
03-27-2010, 01:18 PM
I would love to see footage of this. Not because I believe it didnt' happen, but because I'd bet that it happened in a way that is unlike a sport match, but instead was a demonstration, which has a different context.

Marc, I don't think you are able to understand my point. People are constantly subjecting themselves to social confines. Lack of understanding this is what allows others to take advantage of your social confines. As a licensed psychologist, you should understand this better then most. To say Ushiro Sensei didn't expect to play by a set of rules is kind of silly. He didn't expect Kevin to pull out a gun and shoot him, because that would be crazy for him to do. Crazy because it doesn't fit into the normal dictates of this type of situations. That is a gross example of the kind of rule I'm talking about.

This is a powerful ability, I don't want you to think I'm saying otherwise. Again as a licensed psychologist you should understand how the power of the mind is amazing.

Chris:

They keep a very tight leash on video. Having seen the clips in question, it was definitely not a demonstration!

The issue of overt and covert rules, confines.... is entirely different from the issue of hypnosis. There are always certain assumptions that people make regarding any situation (regardless of whether or not they want to acknowledge it or not). A famous psychologist referred to humans as "telic beings" in that our reasoning capacities are always utilized to create understandings of our environment. Ushiro Sensei does utilize this understanding by utilizing his Ki in a manner that you perceive to be very different than what is occurring. We can make this a separate thread, since this is major thread drift. Basically, he talks about utilizing energy so that the person perceives your hand as if it is a live blade. Unfortunately, a lot of this stuff does not "translate" easily into words and has to be experienced first hand in order to prove and disprove certain hypotheses we have going into this situation. It is not a hypnotic process, but our minds our involved of all aspects of our existence, regardless of it being a conscious or preconscious experience.

Marc Abrams

Michael Varin
03-27-2010, 03:17 PM
Me I think he brainwashed them and created a kind of sect. There is another 'master' in France - G.Blaize who is doing even more horrible things. But he is a direct student of Hikitsushi sensei.
Having taken a look at a few clips of Gerard Blaize on YouTube, I would have to say that there is very little relationship between what he is doing and what the gentleman in the first clip is doing, and it is a mystery to me what relevance M. Blaize has to this discussion….
We could see him throwing his uke from a distance about 10 feet, uke not only fall dawn, but stay on the ground squirming his body in the sort of convulsions and couldn't get up.
About six years ago I was in France and went to a small seminar in the city of Douarnenez. The instructor's first name was Bruno. I believe he either is or was affiliated with Gerard Blaize. Sorry for the lack of specifics - there was a language barrier for me.

In the class I could throw his students with no contact. If I just turned towards them sharply they would fall. Also, I found that I could hold them on the ground indefinitely just by looking at them. I asked one of the men I was training with to get up and he said that he couldn't because my ki was too strong and he looked like he was in discomfort as he tried to move.

I approached the training as I always do, and did nothing out of the ordinary.

The funny thing was that none of the students or the instructor could do these things to me.

The second half of the seminar was much better. One of the guys I was traveling with and I ditched and got some French pastries. . . They were delicious.

JO
03-27-2010, 03:46 PM
About six years ago I was in France and went to a small seminar in the city of Douarnenez. The instructor's first name was Bruno. I believe he either is or was affiliated with Gerard Blaize. Sorry for the lack of specifics - there was a language barrier for me.

In the class I could throw his students with no contact. If I just turned towards them sharply they would fall. Also, I found that I could hold them on the ground indefinitely just by looking at them. I asked one of the men I was training with to get up and he said that he couldn't because my ki was too strong and he looked like he was in discomfort as he tried to move.

I approached the training as I always do, and did nothing out of the ordinary.

The funny thing was that none of the students or the instructor could do these things to me.

The second half of the seminar was much better. One of the guys I was traveling with and I ditched and got some French pastries. . . They were delicious.

I wish I could have been there to see it. Would have been glad to interpret for you.

Talk about the opposite of a martial art. You train hard at making it possible for strangers to pin you with a stare and gain no skills that work on anybody other than your own dojo mates.

stan baker
03-27-2010, 05:12 PM
Hi Marc
I am not really interested in kumite, I am more interested in Aiki and internal power that I can test with out Kumite. I will leave the fighting for Dan.

stan

aikilouis
03-27-2010, 05:44 PM
About six years ago I was in France and went to a small seminar in the city of Douarnenez. The instructor's first name was Bruno. I believe he either is or was affiliated with Gerard Blaize. Sorry for the lack of specifics - there was a language barrier for me.

In the class I could throw his students with no contact. If I just turned towards them sharply they would fall. Also, I found that I could hold them on the ground indefinitely just by looking at them. I asked one of the men I was training with to get up and he said that he couldn't because my ki was too strong and he looked like he was in discomfort as he tried to move.

I approached the training as I always do, and did nothing out of the ordinary.

The funny thing was that none of the students or the instructor could do these things to me.

The second half of the seminar was much better. One of the guys I was traveling with and I ditched and got some French pastries. . . They were delicious.

I happened to meet the people of Douarnenez in a seminar around 2001, during which they decided to separate from G. Blaize's organisation. I was a beginner at the time, but from what my instructor told me, that dojo was choosing an orientation towards a practise of communication (perhaps in a spirit closer to Masamichi Noro and his Aiki no Michi), while G. Blaize insisted on maintaining a martial component to their aikido if they wanted to keep on receiving his instruction.

Some details on the following page (especially in the paragraph "Histoire courte") : http://p.bazin.free.fr/cac.html

DH
03-28-2010, 12:16 PM
I find these discussion of "appropriate levels of resistance" and who "owns a floor" and what is "acceptable levels of resistance" or not or what can be judged or discerned or not from various levels of pressure to be antithetical to a discussion of aiki. In the end you can either use Aiki full-on in "force-on-force" or you can't. If anyone (I really don't care who they are) hasn't been tested "all out" by someone who can actually fight and then actually DID fight them with weapons and without then its all rather academic isn't it?

All it says is that these teachers may or may not have 'some" skills in aiki or IP, and they may or may not be able to use what they have a "little bit" in a controlled setting; kata, push hands, sparring, or all out in a real fight. In other words, their understanding and ability to teach IP/ aiki may be true and they might be able to teach it, but whether what they can show you will eventually work in a real fight is all just theory and hope isn't it?

As far as danger levels
Men who really CAN deliver, have done so repeatedly in various venues without having to wreck people in doing so. Nor are they so emotional unstable that they "feel challenged" and then need to wreck people. I have yet to see MMA guys who actually can and do fight exhibit a routine lack of control.
Saying "You shouldn't try to fight a TMA "great" because of how dangerous it might be, he might hurt you." is the worst type of B.S. response imaginable. What does it say?
That a given teacher cannot or will not exhibit control; either due to a personality disorder or lack of skill in that control? What does that say about their supposed level of skill?

Frankly, this whole discussion stinks of the same "I can't use my Martial Arts techniques because they are deadly"... B.S. I have heard most of my adult life.
And "that" is why truly capable MMA people think Aiki, IP and Ki is total B.S., and I do not blame them.
Dan

Kevin Leavitt
03-28-2010, 02:40 PM
I agree Dan and I hope that one day I'll be able to link up with you and train and play in this manner, as I have not had the opportunity to do so with any one that has aiki skills and has been willing to put it on the line like this.

Not sure what your schedule might be this summer, but if you find yourself in the Jacksonville Florida area and have time, let me know...I will be down there getting ready to deploy between 1 May - 1 August.

I have a great set up down there, good tatami, weapons, blauer suits the works, and I have alot of young team guys that could benefit from such training.

Also will have alot of time to kill on the weekends as I will have not much else to do but train.

That goes for anyone that is in the area and wants to come over and train some! PM me and come on over!

Stormcrow34
03-28-2010, 03:49 PM
That goes for anyone that is in the area and wants to come over and train some! PM me and come on over!

Hi Kevin. I live about an hour south of Jacksonville, but have family much closer...and I'm still trying to wrap my mind around what "IT" is all about.

Abasan
03-28-2010, 06:32 PM
Just to add fuel to the fire, we also know that Hiroshi Ikeda takes instruction from Kenji Ushiro too sometimes. An widely respected Aikido teacher learning from a karate teacher about Aiki or Ki really in this instance to me says something. Either Ushiro sensei has something of value to teach, or Ikeda sensei is a fool. I would like to see anyone here calling Ikeda sensei a fool to his face and video that event. :D

ChrisHein
03-28-2010, 06:34 PM
Dan I believe several people from Bullshido.net, who are Mixed martial artists living in your neck of the woods showed an interest in meeting up with you, in a civil manner, to test out your Aiki in a martial context. But you turned them down. I have heard much from you of your sparring sessions, but not from the other parties involved.

I would love to hear from an unbiased party about your sparring sessions. Who could I get in contact with?

JO
03-28-2010, 07:02 PM
I find these discussion of "appropriate levels of resistance" and who "owns a floor" and what is "acceptable levels of resistance" or not or what can be judged or discerned or not from various levels of pressure to be antithetical to a discussion of aiki. In the end you can either use Aiki full-on in "force-on-force" or you can't. If anyone (I really don't care who they are) hasn't been tested "all out" by someone who can actually fight and then actually DID fight them with weapons and without then its all rather academic isn't it?

I mostly agree with you, but there is always a social context to any situation. So when facing someone you don't know at a setting where they are in charge, suddenly trying to play by your rules rather than your own is actually kind of rude. If you consider the exchange of no value under his rules, the proper response is to walk out.

All it says is that these teachers may or may not have 'some" skills in aiki or IP, and they may or may not be able to use what they have a "little bit" in a controlled setting; kata, push hands, sparring, or all out in a real fight. In other words, their understanding and ability to teach IP/ aiki may be true and they might be able to teach it, but whether what they can show you will eventually work in a real fight is all just theory and hope isn't it?

I also think it is important to remember that martial skills (of any type) are not always sought by people for the purpose they were originally designed. I'm a strong follower of the principle that aikido is not about fighting yet should still maintain a sense of martial integrity. In that sense there should be real martial skill, but the ability to show that skill in an all out combat or even sportfighting setting is largely irrelevant. Then take the multitude of tai chi types that practice solely for health benefits (and I know that isn't all of them). Maybe what's important at that level becomes what the person claims he can do with his skill and what he markets his teaching as. Someone that is marketting themselves as an applied self defense teacher but hasn't used there skills under real pressure is a waste of time.

As far as danger levels
Men who really CAN deliver, have done so repeatedly in various venues without having to wreck people in doing so. Nor are they so emotional unstable that they "feel challenged" and then need to wreck people. I have yet to see MMA guys who actually can and do fight exhibit a routine lack of control.
Saying "You shouldn't try to fight a TMA "great" because of how dangerous it might be, he might hurt you." is the worst type of B.S. response imaginable. What does it say?
That a given teacher cannot or will not exhibit control; either due to a personality disorder or lack of skill in that control? What does that say about their supposed level of skill?

I'm sure you're quite aware that there are some dangerous arrogant assholes out there. So I would say that if you don't know the person and whether or not they are fully sane, yes you are taking a chance. Cheap shots are not below auch people and they will use their age and connections to get away with it and make you look like the one that was in the wrong. Nothing you can really do other than stay away from such types.

Of course, there are plenty of good TMA guys out there that are nice guys that don't feel the need to prove anything to anybody. Their YouTube clips tend to have less of the circus act feel to them in my opinion.

As for those who CAN deliver. No matter what type of skill you have, your not going to easily handle someone of similar skill. If someone as good as you decided to show you your flaws publicly, could you handle it easily without causing harm? So I would say randomly picking fights with strangers is a dangerous proposition, not to mention an illegal one.

Frankly, this whole discussion stinks of the same "I can't use my Martial Arts techniques because they are deadly"... B.S. I have heard most of my adult life.
And "that" is why truly capable MMA people think Aiki, IP and Ki is total B.S., and I do not blame them.
Dan

MMA types, especially the sportfighting centered ones, have the fortune of working in a format with well structured goals and rules (not just the rules of the sport, but also of where and when different levels of resistance/intensity and types of training take place). They unfortunately have the tendency of often forgetting that there are other possible goals to martial arts training.

JO
03-28-2010, 07:15 PM
I find these discussion of "appropriate levels of resistance" and who "owns a floor" and what is "acceptable levels of resistance" or not or what can be judged or discerned or not from various levels of pressure to be antithetical to a discussion of aiki. In the end you can either use Aiki full-on in "force-on-force" or you can't. If anyone (I really don't care who they are) hasn't been tested "all out" by someone who can actually fight and then actually DID fight them with weapons and without then its all rather academic isn't it?

All it says is that these teachers may or may not have 'some" skills in aiki or IP, and they may or may not be able to use what they have a "little bit" in a controlled setting; kata, push hands, sparring, or all out in a real fight. In other words, their understanding and ability to teach IP/ aiki may be true and they might be able to teach it, but whether what they can show you will eventually work in a real fight is all just theory and hope isn't it?

I mostly agree with you, but there is always a social context to any situation. So when facing someone you don't know at a setting where they are in charge, suddenly trying to play by your rules rather than theirs is actually kind of rude. If you consider the exchange of no value under his rules, the proper response is to walk out.

I also think it is important to remember that martial skills (of any type) are not always sought by people for the purpose they were originally designed. I'm a strong follower of the principle that aikido is not about fighting yet should still maintain a sense of martial integrity. In that sense there should be real martial skill, but the ability to show that skill in an all out combat or even sportfighting setting is largely irrelevant. Then take the multitude of tai chi types that practice solely for health benefits (and yes, I know that isn't all of them). Maybe what's important at that level becomes what the person claims he can do with his skill and what he markets his teaching as. Someone that is marketting themselves as an applied self defense teacher but hasn't used there skills under real pressure is a waste of time.

As far as danger levels
Men who really CAN deliver, have done so repeatedly in various venues without having to wreck people in doing so. Nor are they so emotional unstable that they "feel challenged" and then need to wreck people. I have yet to see MMA guys who actually can and do fight exhibit a routine lack of control.
Saying "You shouldn't try to fight a TMA "great" because of how dangerous it might be, he might hurt you." is the worst type of B.S. response imaginable. What does it say?
That a given teacher cannot or will not exhibit control; either due to a personality disorder or lack of skill in that control? What does that say about their supposed level of skill?

I'm sure you're quite aware that there are some dangerous arrogant assholes out there. So I would say that if you don't know the person and whether or not they are fully sane, yes you are taking a chance. Cheap shots are not below such people and they will use their age and connections to get away with it and make you look like the one that was in the wrong. Nothing you can really do other than stay away from such types.

Of course, there are plenty of good TMA guys out there that are nice guys that don't feel the need to prove anything to anybody. Their YouTube clips tend to have less of the circus act feel to them in my opinion.

As for those who CAN deliver. No matter what type of skill you have, your not going to easily handle someone of similar skill. If someone as good as you decided to show you your flaws publicly, could you handle it easily without causing harm? So I would say randomly picking fights with strangers is a dangerous proposition, not to mention an illegal one.

Also, the less parameters are controlled, the more accidents happen. A stray punch can kill. Someone jumps into my aikido class and starts throwing repeated hard puches to "test" me in his mind may get the "I'm fighting for my life" response from me. He's attacking in a way that's innapropriate and without prior agreement, the dojo becomes "the street", it certainly isn't "the ring".

Frankly, this whole discussion stinks of the same "I can't use my Martial Arts techniques because they are deadly"... B.S. I have heard most of my adult life.
And "that" is why truly capable MMA people think Aiki, IP and Ki is total B.S., and I do not blame them.
Dan

MMA types, especially the sportfighting centered ones, have the fortune of working in a format with well structured goals and rules (not just the rules of the sport, but also of where and when different levels of resistance/intensity and types of training take place). They unfortunately have the tendency of often forgetting that there are other possible goals to martial arts training.

Fortunately, I don't see much of the I don't use my arts because they're deadly nonsense in my aikido circles. But I know it's out there.

Randy Sexton
03-28-2010, 09:03 PM
If I were there I would have him try that on me and would love to see the result. I have seen some really amazing stuff based on real Aikido principles. Mastery of them allows one to blend with an attacker's energy to such a level that the balance and direction of force can be affected for a take down. However, I note no such entering or balance control here other than rolling and agonizing from their own minds. As previously stated above, "been there before" and I don't care to go there again. I have amazing Sensei teaching me the art of Aikido and realize with hard work and practice I can become amazing too but I don't care to waste my time with nonsense and rolling on the floor with self-induced confusion and delusion.
As an ER physician I understand well the power of the mind when it comes to pain and control.

Doc

JO
03-28-2010, 09:18 PM
However, I note no such entering or balance control here other than rolling and agonizing from their own minds.
Doc

I pretty much agree with you on this, but there is one dimension I'm surprised nobody has brought up. There is clearly a good dose of group expectation (or should I call it mass hysteria) going on in that video. They are reacting the way they are expected to react and that they expect others to react. This is a powerful thing. People, especially in groups, can work themselves into strange states of mind. They're doing the aiki version of speaking in tongues, it's utter gibberish, but real to them, and fits into the world view they have created for themselves.

Kevin Leavitt
03-28-2010, 10:58 PM
Hi Kevin. I live about an hour south of Jacksonville, but have family much closer...and I'm still trying to wrap my mind around what "IT" is all about.

Cool. I will actually be at Camp Blanding over in Starke...not sure how far that is from you.

Anyway, me too...trying to wrap my mind around IT. I've seen some interesting things over the past several years, damned if I can do much of it, but enjoying the journey for sure!

Maybe we can get together this summer!

Michael Douglas
03-29-2010, 11:11 AM
:D Ouch!
... They're doing the aiki version of speaking in tongues, it's utter gibberish, ...
Good point Jonathan, although I'd point out that (under a different description) it has been touched upon in this thread. Personally I think that is the basic explanation for the awful Aiki video but to me the WORST thing about this is the sensei who believes he is having that affect on his performers.
You can blame the combination of human nature and non-competitive practice.

ChrisHein
03-29-2010, 12:36 PM
to me the WORST thing about this is the sensei who believes he is having that affect on his performers.


But he is having an effect, just not the one we all assume. Now whether that can be applied outside of his dojo, with people other then his students, or in more wide sweeping contexts is open to discussion.

We always want to call something REAL or FAKE. While this will get us through the things we don't care about, it's a little too simple for anything we really want to understand.

It's important that we understand what is happening so that we know if we are really interested in it or not.

I personally don't believe this exchange was scripted. I also believe that this teachers students likely believe something is happening to them. That means something IS happening to them. The sensei is leading their minds, this is a powerful thing, some might justifiably call this thing "Aiki".

Now can he do it to people who have been less conditioned? Good question! How far can you take this ability? Good question! How quickly can one be conditioned to do this? GREAT question!

Something is happening. At first we may think we are seeing magic. But it's our job as people who care about the Aiki related arts to actually get to the bottom of it.

George S. Ledyard
03-29-2010, 02:26 PM
I know exactly what this teacher is doing. I could duplicate it as well if I had the same ukes. These ukes have been trained to a) amplify the wave energy as they feel it and to b) dissolve their own structures and let the wave flop them around. I can guarantee that it wouldn't look anything like that if I grabbed him.

These ukes have been trained to make their teacher look good. It's not that he isn't running the energy, you can see it if you know what you are looking at, it's just that what he is doing would not have that result if he worked with anyone who had his own understanding of structure. This is the same stuff as Watanabe Sensei's displays when he is throwing his ukes from ten feet away. The ukes have been trained to recognize and respond to changes in the direction of the teacher's intention. It might be an interesting display of sensitivity but it isn't martial arts at all. This is both sensitive and reactive. What we strive for is sensitivity without reactivity.

George S. Ledyard
03-29-2010, 02:29 PM
But he is having an effect, just not the one we all assume.

This is a good point. What we are seeing may not be great aiki but it certainly is great personal power. Not everyone can get otherwise sensible people to suspend their common sense like this.

George S. Ledyard
03-29-2010, 02:35 PM
That one won't play for me ... is it similar to this one?
http://www.youtube.com/user/willustration#p/u/4/iuPHFSrC_zw

Not similar at all. I actually liked this one. This fellow knows what he is doing...

ChrisHein
03-29-2010, 02:59 PM
Not everyone can get otherwise sensible people to suspend their common sense like this.

Yeap!

Michael Varin
03-29-2010, 05:25 PM
That one won't play for me ... is it similar to this one?
http://www.youtube.com/user/willustr.../4/iuPHFSrC_zw

Not similar at all. I actually liked this one. This fellow knows what he is doing...

The first nage in that video is the same person who is nage in the the video from the original post that sparked this dicussion. I like the way he moves and throws, also, but it should be pointed out that his uke is still totally cooperative. In that way, the uke is still facilitating the appearance of the outcome.

These ukes have been trained to make their teacher look good. It's not that he isn't running the energy, you can see it if you know what you are looking at, it's just that what he is doing would not have that result if he worked with anyone who had his own understanding of structure.

I, personally, would replace having an understanding of structure with the dropping of the uke-nage roles, the will and intent to apply techniques to your opponent and to counteract his. I can have my own understanding of structure, but if my goal is to provide the energy for a specific technique, then receive the technique and let you throw me the result will look exactly the same.

And because that statement applies to both videos, it is inaccurate to say they are "not similar at all."

crbateman
03-29-2010, 05:40 PM
Not everyone can get otherwise sensible people to suspend their common sense like this.
ROFL! :D Don't hold back, George... Tell us what you think. ;)

JO
03-29-2010, 08:34 PM
I know exactly what this teacher is doing. I could duplicate it as well if I had the same ukes. These ukes have been trained to a) amplify the wave energy as they feel it and to b) dissolve their own structures and let the wave flop them around. I can guarantee that it wouldn't look anything like that if I grabbed him.
.

So what would it look like with a less floppy uke? What would happen if you did what he is doing with your own students? Or with a decent attacker with no prior knowledge of the technique/skill? Videos for comparison with the original would be nice.

dps
03-29-2010, 11:38 PM
. Not everyone can get otherwise sensible people to suspend their common sense like this.

The same could be said for people posting on internet martial art forums. :)

David

Michael Fitzgerald
03-30-2010, 06:45 AM
The third fellow, I couldn't go past that.

What a load of rubbish.
:disgust:

DH
03-30-2010, 07:48 AM
So what would it look like with a less floppy uke? What would happen if you did what he is doing with your own students? Or with a decent attacker with no prior knowledge of the technique/skill? Videos for comparison with the original would be nice.
Depending on the quality of the training and then the experience of the attacker:
1. It wouldn't "look like" much of anything- as most of those "aiki" moves are not aiki and don't really do much of anything to people.
2. The defender would simply get punched in the face, kicked or thrown down- as from what I can see none of them have the body connection to do much about that to defend themselves.
3. The attacker would succeed in dominating the space and the defender
4. It would lead to actual fighting

Other options would include
5. The defender having IP/ Aiki so the attacker would get neutralized and have to disconnect himself and attack again or he would himself get handled by the defender.
Examples: People trying to punch someone with IP/Aiki (who actually knows and is experienced in fighting with IP/aiki) and they are stopped and then stuck and weighted or lifted while they are getting pummeled with punches and kicks or else getting thrown. If they disconnect, (again depending on the skills of the one with IP.aiki) the defender can wait and mentally enter or fit in to their moves and start the sequence over, or they can go on the offensive and create openings and start the sequence over.
6. If you are so inclined you can do a push hand nuetralizing game (not my cup of tea) where both parties get to neutralize and play the absorbing, changing energy, game.
7. Or you can do a Judo/ jujutsu (no kicking and punching) mutual changing energy/positional dominance game.

In any event, with the above (5-7), the attacker, doesn't offer an attack and then "receive it" instead he attacks, neutralizes your response and continues the attack over and over. Note* all of the above can be done without kicks and punches in an aikido format that still keeps the exchange real enough. That would depend on an understanding of positioning and entry and dominating the space and intent of the attacker(no I do not mind some flakey nonsense, I mean real time control of intent to attack).

It is worth truly watching the body mechanics of the attacker in MA training; nine times out of ten you see the energy level and focus shift in the attacker instantly after the launch of the attack and he "becomes" uke-body-man-meaning their bodies get organized, or "set up" to receive.

It is much harder to throw someone keeping their wits and their intent actively focused or trying to re-engage. The body dynamic is totally different then. My favorite response to Uke disease is "If I offered you a million dollars to fight me and defeat me-right now- would you behave like that? No? Good, then change your mind about what it is you're doing.
There are ways to allow the defender to practice perfecting his waza or body skills by semi cooperating, and then upping-the-anti once in a while, and then moving on to full resistance and changing. Unfortunately IMO, you need teachers who can actually fight with their skills to pull that one off. I simply wouldn't trust the majority of Martial Art teachers to be able to do that. Which is the reason why so many martial artists look like they do, and typically fail under serious pressure.
I think the way ukemi is done in various arts is the single greatest failure in understanding in the martial arts. It has created an artifice and false feedback loop that there is almost no recovery from. Truly "active" training is the best training for all parties concerned. Understanding and training to do that with a connected and trained body, and then with an active mind/body connection is-in my opinion-martial arts on an entirely different level then most of what I have seen or participated in.
Cheers
Dan

TCSSEC
03-30-2010, 08:14 AM
The third fellow, I couldn't go past that.

What a load of rubbish.
:disgust:
They are bad uke Michael. Not sure about the sensei in question. Or it's magic!

Tom [Fancy meeting U here!]

jonreading
03-30-2010, 01:09 PM
I know exactly what this teacher is doing. I could duplicate it as well if I had the same ukes. These ukes have been trained to a) amplify the wave energy as they feel it and to b) dissolve their own structures and let the wave flop them around. I can guarantee that it wouldn't look anything like that if I grabbed him.

These ukes have been trained to make their teacher look good. It's not that he isn't running the energy, you can see it if you know what you are looking at, it's just that what he is doing would not have that result if he worked with anyone who had his own understanding of structure. This is the same stuff as Watanabe Sensei's displays when he is throwing his ukes from ten feet away. The ukes have been trained to recognize and respond to changes in the direction of the teacher's intention. It might be an interesting display of sensitivity but it isn't martial arts at all. This is both sensitive and reactive. What we strive for is sensitivity without reactivity.

This is the best post I have read in a while. I also think that Ledyard Sensei's last sentence is so true it should be a poem hanging on a scroll in every dojo. The hyper-reactivity of the students to the demonstration is shameful because they are removing credibility from the video (the instructor's movement didn't look terrible...just absolutely fake in context). What [desirable] benefit was expected from the video is lost because of the stunts.

The worst part was another video from the guy popped up after the first ended. AHHHHHHHH! By the way, I want to start a movement to stop clicking the link. This video is not nearly as funny as a dad getting whacked in the tackle by his kid or a drunk teen riding a bike into a swimming pool...that is empty. Or least, Lady GaGa gyrating against something. Please keep you Youtube hits in mind when viewing this video...

Finally, in all seriousness. I once had the opportunity to ask a stuntman why the martial arts are always so fake. The response when the audience sees a stunt, it needs to look believable, regardless if it is possible. Good aikido can look crazy stupid fake. When we make videos we need to be sensitive to what we look like we are doing and clear as to the purpose of the video and the context in which the video should be taken. Good communication from a well-made video saves us from lengthy arguments over "how real" the aikido may (or may not) be.

George S. Ledyard
03-30-2010, 01:16 PM
So what would it look like with a less floppy uke? What would happen if you did what he is doing with your own students? Or with a decent attacker with no prior knowledge of the technique/skill? Videos for comparison with the original would be nice.

Well, you would never see them flopping around... when in your life do you ever do that? I expect my ukes to attempt to maintain their structures, to recover their balance and continue the attack if possible. My students would feel what I am doing and attempt to ground out the energy and ideally redirect it into kaeshiwaza.

Anyway, if it looks unnatural, it probably is something the ukes were trained to do. No one is insisting that they have the same kind of structure the teacher has. It makes the teacher look good but is terrible martial arts.

David Yap
04-01-2010, 03:36 AM
Hi,

The person who uploaded the video of Hakim sensei on Youtube should remove it at once. The video does not do justice to him.

I am amazed that posters of high rank and experience here can pass judgment on him not knowing him as a person or as a martial artist and not even knowing what the video was about. I have no access to Youtube while here in China but I can guess which video it is based on the description posted here. The video was probably taken from one of his classes or seminars. While Hakim sensei has his own dojo, he routinely teaches at other dojos in Jakarta and at other Indonesian cities. The ukes appearing in the video might not even be his own students. Anyone in the west who has trained in Silat would know that Indonesia is the birth place of this fighting art and any other MA would be frowned upon there. Hakim sensei is a respected Aikido teacher in Indonesia and was an instructor to the Presidential Guards, and that, said much about his martial integrity, Aikido included.

The things done on the video were part of the training tools to understand or to demonstrate the principles of aiki and indeed certain rules or scenario must be present; such as aggression, sincere attacks and connections, etc. The line demonstration was to illustrate connections.

Those who have had attended the last two IAF conferences in Japan may remember Hakim sensei leading the Indonesia delegation in the embu and will have no doubt about his martial integrity in aikido. I first met Hakim sensei in 2004 during the 9th IAF and following that I have trained with him at least three times during his visits to Kuala Lumpur. Most time, he did not bring his own students with him as uke but the results were quite similar with others’ students. It was my privilege again to attend his class last Sunday. At the onset, he told the class that he would not teach waza (students should learn waza from their own teachers) and he would not teach self-defense or fighting (those who want to fight would be better off learning TMA or FMA). His class was about the application of kokyu in the waza (non-mechanical) and about aiki and aiki principles – when/why it works and it doesn’t.

I took ukeme for Hakim sensei, I attacked him honestly but you wouldn’t see me flopping about like a fish out of water – perhaps I wasn’t giving him a 200% attack. I cannot answer for those who did or those who lay on the mats unable to get up as if drained of energy. But I can say that the ukes were not trained to make him looked good, I definitely wasn’t. My objective at the class was to observe, feel and learn. I did not attend his class just to make him look good or make myself look good by taking beautiful ukeme.

He did not do any “no touch” throws on me. Leading the opponent’s mind is one aiki principle; the sales/marketing people and the lawyers are very good at this – the power of suggestion. Some people can be easily lead/manipulated while some cannot. Manipulations can be in any/many forms (e.g. by gesturing or by touching) – either use singly or in combination. I believe O sensei and high level Daito-ryu teachers could do it very well. It can be duplicated but the question is how good your duplication is. It is a skill that one either has or not. For me, soft touching skill is already so hard to duplicate, no touch is soooo very far off my grasp.

Happy duplicating (from the land of duplications)

David Y
Signing off from Shanghai

sakumeikan
04-01-2010, 06:04 AM
Hi,

The person who uploaded the video of Hakim sensei on Youtube should remove it at once. The video does not do justice to him.

I am amazed that posters of high rank and experience here can pass judgment on him not knowing him as a person or as a martial artist and not even knowing what the video was about. I have no access to Youtube while here in China but I can guess which video it is based on the description posted here. The video was probably taken from one of his classes or seminars. While Hakim sensei has his own dojo, he routinely teaches at other dojos in Jakarta and at other Indonesian cities. The ukes appearing in the video might not even be his own students. Anyone in the west who has trained in Silat would know that Indonesia is the birth place of this fighting art and any other MA would be frowned upon there. Hakim sensei is a respected Aikido teacher in Indonesia and was an instructor to the Presidential Guards, and that, said much about his martial integrity, Aikido included.

The things done on the video were part of the training tools to understand or to demonstrate the principles of aiki and indeed certain rules or scenario must be present; such as aggression, sincere attacks and connections, etc. The line demonstration was to illustrate connections.

Those who have had attended the last two IAF conferences in Japan may remember Hakim sensei leading the Indonesia delegation in the embu and will have no doubt about his martial integrity in aikido. I first met Hakim sensei in 2004 during the 9th IAF and following that I have trained with him at least three times during his visits to Kuala Lumpur. Most time, he did not bring his own students with him as uke but the results were quite similar with others' students. It was my privilege again to attend his class last Sunday. At the onset, he told the class that he would not teach waza (students should learn waza from their own teachers) and he would not teach self-defense or fighting (those who want to fight would be better off learning TMA or FMA). His class was about the application of kokyu in the waza (non-mechanical) and about aiki and aiki principles -- when/why it works and it doesn't.

I took ukeme for Hakim sensei, I attacked him honestly but you wouldn't see me flopping about like a fish out of water -- perhaps I wasn't giving him a 200% attack. I cannot answer for those who did or those who lay on the mats unable to get up as if drained of energy. But I can say that the ukes were not trained to make him looked good, I definitely wasn't. My objective at the class was to observe, feel and learn. I did not attend his class just to make him look good or make myself look good by taking beautiful ukeme.

He did not do any "no touch" throws on me. Leading the opponent's mind is one aiki principle; the sales/marketing people and the lawyers are very good at this -- the power of suggestion. Some people can be easily lead/manipulated while some cannot. Manipulations can be in any/many forms (e.g. by gesturing or by touching) -- either use singly or in combination. I believe O sensei and high level Daito-ryu teachers could do it very well. It can be duplicated but the question is how good your duplication is. It is a skill that one either has or not. For me, soft touching skill is already so hard to duplicate, no touch is soooo very far off my grasp.

Happy duplicating (from the land of duplications)

David Y
Signing off from Shanghai

Hi,
Whether Hakim Sensei is good , bad or whatever is not the issue here.The issue is the display of so called Aikido on Youtube.Quite frankly this type of demo does nothing for the promotion of Aikido.
Floppy ukes, no sense of martial spirit in the attacks and the uke biting the dust at the earliest opportunity is pretty bad.
Whoever posted this stuff should remove it asap.Its about time some people had a reality check.

bulevardi
04-01-2010, 06:22 AM
Hi,
Whether Hakim Sensei is good , bad or whatever is not the issue here.The issue is the display of so called Aikido on Youtube.Quite frankly this type of demo does nothing for the promotion of Aikido.
Floppy ukes, no sense of martial spirit in the attacks and the uke biting the dust at the earliest opportunity is pretty bad.
Whoever posted this stuff should remove it asap.Its about time some people had a reality check.

But apparently that teacher can do such things... apparently there is nothing fake to it, as I read David Yap's post.
So why remove it from Youtube?

It would be better to remove batman clips from youtube, because batman doesn't exist... but this sensei exists, and apparently, what he does is not fake...

The problem is that sensei's like this one don't feel the need to teach that technique to their students... as David Yap says that his training was just about Kokyu etc...
At some moment, all the old-school teachers who can teach us those techniques will be dead, and no one will ever know how to do so.

stan baker
04-01-2010, 05:20 PM
Hi Dirk
Hakim 's basic aikido from some other videos I looked at seem ok.
The other stuff is a waste of time, it is just playing around. He can not
do that to me.

stan

eyrie
04-02-2010, 02:34 AM
Whether Hakim Sensei is good , bad or whatever is not the issue here. This much I can agree on.

The issue is the display of so called Aikido on Youtube. Quite frankly this type of demo does nothing for the promotion of Aikido. Floppy ukes, no sense of martial spirit in the attacks and the uke biting the dust at the earliest opportunity is pretty bad. Whoever posted this stuff should remove it asap.Its about time some people had a reality check. Why? People are (should be?) free to do so. Freedom of speech and expression, and all that you Americans hold dear? Perhaps, it should be less about such and such a person's Aikido (or expression of Aikido), and more analysis and discussion of what good/not-so-good pointers that can be gleaned from such videos.

IOW, critique the video and analysis of the video, rather than the person.

Gorgeous George
04-03-2010, 10:20 AM
This much I can agree on.

Why? People are (should be?) free to do so. Freedom of speech and expression, and all that you Americans hold dear? Perhaps, it should be less about such and such a person's Aikido (or expression of Aikido), and more analysis and discussion of what good/not-so-good pointers that can be gleaned from such videos.

IOW, critique the video and analysis of the video, rather than the person.

...he's English.

Josh Reyer
04-03-2010, 10:54 AM
Why? People are (should be?) free to do so.
People should be free post things like the video in question. They also should freely decline to do so.

sakumeikan
04-03-2010, 12:00 PM
...he's English.

Hi George,
If your comment is regarding me {Mr Curran] I stress that I am a Scot.From Glasgow.
No disrespect to the English. How are you?
A.T.B Joe.

Anjisan
04-03-2010, 07:28 PM
This much I can agree on.

Why? People are (should be?) free to do so. Freedom of speech and expression, and all that you Americans hold dear? Perhaps, it should be less about such and such a person's Aikido (or expression of Aikido), and more analysis and discussion of what good/not-so-good pointers that can be gleaned from such videos.

IOW, critique the video and analysis of the video, rather than the person.

Freedom of speech in America refers to a prohibition against the government surpressing speech. It doesn't speak to private industry surpressing speech. In this case, it certainly doesn't apply to the situation of just because one can say something does not mean that one SHOULD say something.

As far as the video, didn't Mike Tyson say something to the effect that everyone's got a plan--or in this case LOOK competent-- until they get hit--hard and repeatedly? Perhaps instead of the street this guy should take it to Broadway???

Gorgeous George
04-03-2010, 11:12 PM
Hi George,
If your comment is regarding me {Mr Curran] I stress that I am a Scot.From Glasgow.
No disrespect to the English. How are you?
A.T.B Joe.

Haha. My apologies sensei: i meant to say British.

...for the sake of argument: you're an honourary Englishman. :)

I'm well, thank you.
A very tall man was at training on Friday, and it was interesting applying techniques to him, haha; i found myself really dropping my weight on a variation of kata-dori shiho-nage in order to make sure he was thrown.
On the few occasions when i've practiced with somebody really tall, it has highlighted (some of) my (many) weaknesses; do you have any general advice on applying techniques to the very tall (not wanting to impose/bother you)...?

How are you?

Sincere regards

- GG

Gorgeous George
04-03-2010, 11:23 PM
As far as the video, didn't Mike Tyson say something to the effect that everyone's got a plan--or in this case LOOK competent-- until they get hit--hard and repeatedly? Perhaps instead of the street this guy should take it to Broadway???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNAWff9Daqg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djUKqxGWj_Y&feature=related

sakumeikan
04-04-2010, 03:10 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNAWff9Daqg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djUKqxGWj_Y&feature=related

Hi George,
This is an other example of absolute rubbish posted on Youtube.As you said the Master??? gets a a couple of clips on his chin in another vid. I hope no one on this Aikiweb decides to try and explain why the Master lost his Ki power during the encounter.

Anjisan
04-04-2010, 07:23 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNAWff9Daqg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djUKqxGWj_Y&feature=related

I stand corrected. Perhaps instead of Broadway, someone should give him a wand and he can try out for the next Harry Potter movie. They ukes coming at him seem so afraid to be hit. A real fighter may not want to be hit, but the 10X exaggerated flinch reaction would not be there--why? Because they would be use to being hit and Just Keep Coming.

Gorgeous George
04-04-2010, 12:29 PM
Hi George,
This is an other example of absolute rubbish posted on Youtube.As you said the Master??? gets a a couple of clips on his chin in another vid. I hope no one on this Aikiweb decides to try and explain why the Master lost his Ki power during the encounter.

I absolutely agree with you, and your earlier point that such videos give a bad name to aikido: if you think, someone was going around saying you were something you were not, or believed/did something you did not, then you might not like that - so too with aikido.

On this version of the video - with 1.5 million views - he is said to practice 'Daitouryu-aikido':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc

Regarding the actual fight, for all the criticism of the wrist grabs in aikido, the guy actually grabs the 'master's' wrist! If he did aikido, he would have finished the fight there, i'd think - even against someone who does MMA.

'Japan's Yanagi Ryuken can teach you now. He holds a 10th degree black belt in five traditional martial arts, and his system is based on martial arts like Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu and spiritual paths like Qigong. Yanagi Ryuken supposedly won over 200 Vale Tudo competitions'

http://www.dbskeptic.com/2008/05/29/the-%E2%80%9Cbullshido%E2%80%9D-of-martial-arts-and-no-touch-knockouts/

And a brief video exposing a fake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7yDLRib5CQ&feature=related

dps
04-04-2010, 07:58 PM
I absolutely agree with you, and your earlier point that such videos give a bad name to aikido: if you think, someone was going around saying you were something you were not, or believed/did something you did not, then you might not like that - so too with aikido.

On this version of the video - with 1.5 million views - he is said to practice 'Daitouryu-aikido':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc

Regarding the actual fight, for all the criticism of the wrist grabs in aikido, the guy actually grabs the 'master's' wrist! If he did aikido, he would have finished the fight there, i'd think - even against someone who does MMA.

'Japan's Yanagi Ryuken can teach you now. He holds a 10th degree black belt in five traditional martial arts, and his system is based on martial arts like Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu and spiritual paths like Qigong. Yanagi Ryuken supposedly won over 200 Vale Tudo competitions'

http://www.dbskeptic.com/2008/05/29/the-%E2%80%9Cbullshido%E2%80%9D-of-martial-arts-and-no-touch-knockouts/

And a brief video exposing a fake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7yDLRib5CQ&feature=related

Hello George,

After reading your post and reading and watching the videos, some of which I have seen before, I was wondering if "delusion" would be another definition of the many definitions for Ki, Chi, etc?

David