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Mariska Poiesz
03-23-2010, 01:31 AM
Hi,

During last nights training session we were focusing on the two sides of the techniques. This is often indicated by using the words tenkan and irimi or omote and ura.
They are not the same, since tenkan and irimi refer to movement, while omote and ura refer to the 'front' and 'back' side.

Yet, unless I am mistaken, an omote is often paired with an irimi, and an ura is often paired with a tenkan.
So then what is the difference between the two?

thank you,
Mariska

Beard of Chuck Norris
03-23-2010, 01:36 AM
You can irimi to omote or ura
You can tenkan to omote or ura.

You step to their inside / front = irimi, omote
You step to their outside / back = irimi, ura
You turn to their inside / front = tenkan, omote
You turn to their outside / back = tenkan ura

Simples.
(been a while since my last post, hello everyone!)

Mariska Poiesz
03-23-2010, 01:57 AM
Oh dear,
So I was probably missing out on half of the movements, I'll have to work on that.
Thank you :)

ilia rudnitskiy
03-23-2010, 02:04 AM
You usually irimi into uke's omote, since entering uke's center with a tenkan--thereby turning your back towards him--is more or less a foolish thing (or so we're taught).
Entering to uke's ura can be done with either a tenkan or an irimi (tenkan: kotegaeshi, irimi: iriminage, etc.). I think in the beginning you learn to enter more with a tenkan to the ura, and then later on you learn to enter with an irimi since there's more distance to cover? I'm not sure.

Beard of Chuck Norris
03-23-2010, 02:42 AM
Yup, you'd rarely want to tenkan to omote.... but you can.

Glad I could help. Don't worry about missing out half the movements... some of them are a bit academic i.e. worthy of study that might give you a more full picture but with limited application on their own.


I think in the beginning you learn to enter more with a tenkan to the ura, and then later on you learn to enter with an irimi since there's more distance to cover? I'm not sure.


Depends on your school I'd imagine... How your syllabus is formed, what attacks appear when and what techniques appear when.

jss
03-24-2010, 02:36 AM
I don't know if this will lessen or increase the confusion, but I'd add 'kaiten' to the list of irimi and tenkan. With kaiten being basically a step backwards at an angle (so front foot becomes back foot). Then the simple mapping of irimi - omote and tenkan - ura no longer works, because you've got nothing to map tenkan to. ;)

aikishihan
03-24-2010, 02:56 AM
The beauty of Aiki, is that there are as many ways to describe its application, as there are to describe it purpose.

My take on the question posed is as follows. No need to follow mine.

omote and ura refers to where nage applies movement and technique in relationship to the uke.

mae and ushiro refers to where uke approaches nage with the attack.

omote and mae(rarely stated) refer to the front; ura and ushiro refer to the back

irimi refers to the entering into an opening exposed or created.

tenkan, also called tai o henko by some, refers to the connection nage makes with uke by pivoting and setting uke up for a technique, or bringing uke along with the tenkan movement preparatory to a technique.

Hope this is helpful; if not, please discard.

In Oneness,

Dazzler
03-24-2010, 05:05 AM
I don't know if this will lessen or increase the confusion, but I'd add 'kaiten' to the list of irimi and tenkan. With kaiten being basically a step backwards at an angle (so front foot becomes back foot). Then the simple mapping of irimi - omote and tenkan - ura no longer works, because you've got nothing to map tenkan to. ;)

Respectfully, You could also add tai sabaki and in this instance it wouldn't help at all. Just muddies already cloudy waters.

All of theses are movements in Aikido but Irimi and Tenkan are directly linked to each other.

One can perform an entering movement using irimi or a withdrawing movement creating tenkan (of which for me the turning movement fixated by many as tenkan is just one form). They are together. Do them both and you could end up where you started.

Irimi / tenkan are according to Tamura Sensei, foundations of Aikido....FWIW he positions I/T smack bang in the middle of his 9 bases. (source is at home but believe its either in his teachers guide or in his book on transmission translated by Stephane Bennedetti 6th Dan)

He specifically lists them as a single foundation.

Ura / Omote are also considered a single foundation.

He writes "

Any technique in Aikido has two aspects: Ura Wasa and Omote Wasa.

Ura represents the reverse, the back, the hidden side of things.

Omote represents the front, the surface, exterior, the apparent side of things.

In everything there is Ura and Omote. Man himself has a front and a back.
Ura and Omote can equally be used to mean exterior and interior. One can, for example, have a smiling face and feel pain in the heart or even have the appearance of the Buddha while lacking emotion.

Explaining in simple terms, techniques carried out in front of the adversary are called Omote Wasa and those from behind, Ura Wasa. Certain techniques are possible in Omote Wasa and Ura Wasa, others in one of the two.

In reality the techniques do not exist in these forms and the distinction does not have a practical application. The Omote Wasa and Ura Wasa classification was probably introduced to facilitate training and in fact an essential part of the learning process is to reject this classification and not to let yourself be hidebound.
"

If you take tenkan to be any physical withdrawal , or at higher level, even an inbreath...then this does not restrict the eventual form, and it can fit either classification depending on positional relationship to uke.

I like his 'essential part of learning process is to reject this classification' - ultimately you are free. Move and a form manifestsitself.

Or so I'm lead to believe and hope to one day reach this level.



Hope this is helpful; if not, please discard.

- I echo this .

Regards

D

jss
03-24-2010, 05:33 AM
Respectfully, You could also add tai sabaki and in this instance it wouldn't help at all. Just muddies already cloudy waters.
AFAIK, tai sabaki means body movement, so irimi, tenkan (and kaiten) would be types of tai sabaki. Adding tai sabaki would then only serve to muddy the waters and nothing else, unlike the adding of kaiten.
Or do you have a different meaning of tai sabaki in mind?

One can perform an entering movement using irimi or a withdrawing movement creating tenkan (of which for me the turning movement fixated by many as tenkan is just one form).
That's also a good solution. :)

Dazzler
03-24-2010, 05:57 AM
AFAIK, tai sabaki means body movement, so irimi, tenkan (and kaiten) would be types of tai sabaki. Adding tai sabaki would then only serve to muddy the waters and nothing else, unlike the adding of kaiten.
Or do you have a different meaning of tai sabaki in mind?

That's also a good solution. :)

I was actually thinking more of sideways movement into an off line position -so not exactly kaiten.

Either way -I see both as additional movements to Irimi and Tenkan and not really pertinent to specific question in the title.

it really is just a small critique in my attempt to refocus on the question in hand which is the very common confusion between the words in the title of the thread.

Hope thats clearer.

Regards

D

C. David Henderson
03-24-2010, 12:46 PM
Techniques calling for tenkan to the front of uke -- where essentially there is a moment when you are turning with your back to uke but inside the arc of uke's attack -- seem to require very precise maai and tai sabki (executing the tenkan to minimize that moment's potential opening.) I find a natural tendency to hesitate as nage, which of course itself interferes with maai.

We also practice weapons kata containing this kind of entry. It helps.

FWIW