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NagaBaba
03-15-2010, 06:49 PM
Hello,
Can some of Tomiki fighters explain what sensei is doing in the first half of the video (looks like one person kata and kata with Ohba sensei), please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8

Please don't spam this thread with discussion on 'aiki'.

mathewjgano
03-15-2010, 08:00 PM
Hello,
Can some of Tomiki fighters explain what sensei is doing in the first half of the video (looks like one person kata and kata with Ohba sensei), please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8

Please don't spam this thread with discussion on 'aiki'.

The very first part is unsoku and tegatana dosa, which is a part of the standard warm-up, if I'm remembering right.

dps
03-15-2010, 08:47 PM
Here are a couple links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DF_Y6YbvnA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFgwdsEEvKM

David

Tim Fong
03-16-2010, 01:19 AM
Please don't spam this thread with discussion on 'aiki'.

Thanks for that reminder. Who would want to discuss such a thing on an aikido board?

Tim

chillzATL
03-16-2010, 07:46 AM
Thanks for that reminder. Who would want to discuss such a thing on an aikido board?

Tim

seriously, what could aiki have to do with aikido anyway? You can't love someone with aiki unless it has a do on the end. I'm pretty sure that's what O'sensei said, right?

NagaBaba
03-16-2010, 11:29 AM
In two person kata uke is attacking with hand exended in front of him - is it a simulation of tsuki with a sword?
There are any reasons why uke s not out of balance before the throws?

Thanks for the links, very interesting.

Ron Tisdale
03-16-2010, 12:27 PM
What is the difference between dosa, kata, and waza?

What does an instructor do with his uke when demonstrating dosa in front of a class with beginners, who are trying to learn very basic movement (not to mention left from right)?

Best,
Ron

MM
03-16-2010, 01:09 PM
In two person kata uke is attacking with hand exended in front of him - is it a simulation of tsuki with a sword?


Check out these vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng03q7VTtQI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdWvLDYlu48


There are any reasons why uke s not out of balance before the throws?


aiki :)

Chris Covington
03-16-2010, 01:10 PM
I haven't seen that video in a long time. Thanks for posting a link to it. I find the open hand tsuki to the face very interesting. It reminds me a great deal of Koshiki-no-kata in Kodokan judo. This seems to make sense considering Tomiki sensei was a high ranked judoka. I'm sure he was familliar with Kito-ryu. It's like an interesting blend of Daito-ryu/aikido and Kito-ryu we are seeing. Ueshiba sensei was working on counters to Kito-ryu at least between 1930 and 1931 per Admiral Takshita's diary "Kon" (http://www.archbudo.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=855001&refid=a). This is within the time frame Tomiki sensei was studying with Ueshiba sensei (http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=704). Can anyone who knows more about Tomiki sensei and his aikido comment?

Best regards,

mathewjgano
03-16-2010, 01:51 PM
I just shot a message to PeterR asking if he would be willing to share some of his understanding. I'm not sure if he will even get it since I haven't spoken to him in some time, but he would be a very good person to ask.

L. Camejo
03-16-2010, 08:38 PM
In two person kata uke is attacking with hand exended in front of him - is it a simulation of tsuki with a sword?The use of tegatana here is not an actual attack per se (e.g. tsuki) it is a generic representation of an attack using the hand - at the last instant it can be a punch, a one handed grasp, a thrust etc. The idea is to deal with a person who invades ones ma ai to attack, so the attack itself is not specific for the purpose of the kata.There are any reasons why uke s not out of balance before the throws?Not sure what you mean by this question as there is subtle kuzushi at the point of physical contact in every one of the techniques shown in the randori no kata. Imho this video of the kata shows very relaxed execution without throws being done in most cases. As a result the floating or collapsing of uke that usually occurs before kake or completion of the throw is not clearly evident in this video.

In my opinion of course.

Hope this helps.

Best

LC

L. Camejo
03-16-2010, 09:48 PM
I haven't seen that video in a long time. Thanks for posting a link to it. I find the open hand tsuki to the face very interesting. It reminds me a great deal of Koshiki-no-kata in Kodokan judo. This seems to make sense considering Tomiki sensei was a high ranked judoka. I'm sure he was familliar with Kito-ryu. It's like an interesting blend of Daito-ryu/aikido and Kito-ryu we are seeing. Ueshiba sensei was working on counters to Kito-ryu at least between 1930 and 1931 per Admiral Takshita's diary "Kon" (http://www.archbudo.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=855001&refid=a). This is within the time frame Tomiki sensei was studying with Ueshiba sensei (http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=704). Can anyone who knows more about Tomiki sensei and his aikido comment?

Best regards,
Hi Chris,

Not sure what you want comments on exactly but we discussed Shishida's article above in the following threads. They may add some insight -

http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15198

http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17184

Hope this helps.

Best

LC

NagaBaba
03-17-2010, 08:53 PM
Sorry for late replay, I was busy.

Yeah, I don't know much about Tomiki system, so thanks for all info.

It was a little surprising, you guys you are using kata to teach. I'm a bit familiar with some judo kata(helping my wife), in their kata all details are very clearly exposed(you can always see unbalancing, real locks etc..even in slow motion). I perceived Tomiki sensei teaching very close to judo kata spirit.

Do you have special training only for separate parts of technique (i.e. the entry to the techniques)? if yes, how it is done(also in kata way)?

Concerning unsoku and tegatana dosa - I believe it is Tomiki sensei who first developed aiki taiso being in Russian prison right after II WW, are unsoku and tegatana dosa part of his aiki taiso exercises?

NagaBaba
03-17-2010, 08:59 PM
What is the difference between dosa, kata, and waza?

What does an instructor do with his uke when demonstrating dosa in front of a class with beginners, who are trying to learn very basic movement (not to mention left from right)?

Best,
Ron
Hi Ron,
well, I don't think this kata is for beginners, but I may be wrong :D When I teach beginners, the very next thing (after teaching where is left leg and right leg), is how to unbalance the attacker. So I'm a bit sensitive about it, sorry..;)

mathewjgano
03-17-2010, 10:06 PM
It was a little surprising, you guys you are using kata to teach. I'm a bit familiar with some judo kata(helping my wife), in their kata all details are very clearly exposed(you can always see unbalancing, real locks etc..even in slow motion). I perceived Tomiki sensei teaching very close to judo kata spirit.

Do you have special training only for separate parts of technique (i.e. the entry to the techniques)? if yes, how it is done(also in kata way)?
Hopefully someone with more experience than me can answer, but I'll try my best. One of the points that was driven home to me which might apply here is the idea that there are different levels of resistance used at different times. In learning the basic movements there was none or almost no resistance, but at the end of practice I almost always had low levels of resistence to deal with. The more advanced students played with proportionately higher levels.

L. Camejo
03-17-2010, 10:28 PM
It was a little surprising, you guys you are using kata to teach. I'm a bit familiar with some judo kata(helping my wife), in their kata all details are very clearly exposed(you can always see unbalancing, real locks etc..even in slow motion). I perceived Tomiki sensei teaching very close to judo kata spirit.You are correct in a sense. Tomiki used the Judo concept of using kata and randori to teach Budo, but he did not pattern the Aikido kata along Judo lines imho.

Also, my impression of the video you referenced initially is that this was a video of Ohba and Tomiki executing aspects of the Shodokan training method, but it was not a step by step instructional video per se. Of course anyone who can properly read the Japanese text in the video can correct me.

The 2-person kata shown from the handblade "thrust" is the Junanahon or Randori no Kata and represents 17 fundamental techniques that Tomiki believed represented the core of Aikido waza. All Aikido waza would be a variation of those 17 in some way. The original video you referenced only shows about 6 of the 17. This is a basic kata and is a major part of the kyu test syllabus. The entire official kata as done today looks like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzPMNGTmcdc.

Do you have special training only for separate parts of technique (i.e. the entry to the techniques)? if yes, how it is done(also in kata way)?Sections of technique are trained in different ways using drills, exercises, kata and light randori (kakari geiko). The first section of the initial video shows basic footwork, tai sabaki and tegatana drills. Other drills address entering, distancing, timing, posture, metsuke, tsukuri, kuzushi etc. and are also part of the kyu syllabus.

Concerning unsoku and tegatana dosa - I believe it is Tomiki sensei who first developed aiki taiso being in Russian prison right after II WW, are unsoku and tegatana dosa part of his aiki taiso exercises?The unsoku and tegatana dosa were developed during Tomiki's time in the Siberian P.O.W. camp. They are part of what we refer to as Taiso. I am not sure if the term Aiki Taiso is used specifically. I have not heard anyone in Shodokan refer to it as such. An article with some additional history on this can be found here - http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=411. Much of the answers to these questions can also be found on the Shodokan Hombu site here - http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/index.html.

Hope this helps.

Best
LC

mathewjgano
03-21-2010, 08:04 PM
Found this video very informative. Hope it helps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZw-pw0U3sk
I think it shows good examples of the gradual increase of resistance Tomiki used and describes in basic terms what the point of the practice is.