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bob_stra
03-15-2010, 12:21 PM
As far as Aiki Age goes, how does the external shape of what happening here conform to the general idea of 'how it's done'?

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2449/aikiage.jpg

Ie: is this the way it's generally done, angles and orientation wise? Or is this an atypical presentation, in your opinion?

bob_stra
03-15-2010, 12:48 PM
Hmm: moved to non-aikido martial traditions. Yet, Aiki-age is in the aikido syllabus- is it not? (genuine question)

Irrespective - the previous question stands. Consider this post an attention drawer and nothing more :D

chillzATL
03-15-2010, 12:59 PM
Hmm: moved to non-aikido martial traditions. Yet, Aiki-age is in the aikido syllabus- is it not? (genuine question)

Irrespective - the previous question stands. Consider this post an attention drawer and nothing more :D

I don't think it is a part of very many Aikido styles, at least as aiki-age. The closest I think you'd get from 99% would be kokyu dosa, but I doubt that it's explained similarly or with as much depth as it is in the doc you're referencing.

MM
03-15-2010, 01:01 PM
As far as Aiki Age goes, how does the external shape of what happening here conform to the general idea of 'how it's done'?

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2449/aikiage.jpg

Ie: is this the way it's generally done, angles and orientation wise? Or is this an atypical presentation, in your opinion?

Angles? Orientation wise? IMO, when you get to that kind of discussion, you're talking about jujutsu principles. Good jujutsu can mimic good internal skills in outward appearances. While doing aiki age with jujutsu or with aiki may look the same, from uke's experience, though, both will rarely be confused as the same thing.

With "internal" aiki age -- someone I know once told me ... how low can you go to make up? (paraphrasing).

Aiki age, to me, is all about intent and what is happening in one's own body. Take the ki society "unbendable arm" example. Quite a few people have stated to imagine the arm as a hose and water is going through the hose, out the arm. When I'm using "intent", I'm saying take the ki society example and put it on steroids -- a more directed, stronger intent throughout the body in contradictory directions and then add intent going down the body into the ground and up into uke.

IMO, this is part of what Ueshiba talked about with heaven and earth. His intent is sinking as far down into the earth as he can and then going out under uke and up into uke. His intent was going up into heaven as far as he can, out over uke and then down into uke. Depending on whether you want aiki age or aiki sage, one intent is more directed and stronger. Now, toss in that you would be in the middle of heaven and earth while doing this and you can see how someone could say they are the bridge between them.

Now, let's say your "intent", concentration, etc are so refined that you feel like you have puppet strings controlling your hands. You feel like you are above yourself looking down. You have a moment where the world slows down, seems semi-dreamy, a type of energy euphoria sets in, and then maybe, you can start to see how someone can say that they can be the avatar for the kami.

bob_stra
03-15-2010, 01:03 PM
Yeah - kokyu dosa is what I was referencing - more or less, isn't that the same thing?

But let's not get too hung up on that.

From what's visible here - is this a typical example of the genre or not? If not, how come?

MM
03-15-2010, 01:04 PM
I don't think it is a part of very many Aikido styles, at least as aiki-age. The closest I think you'd get from 99% would be kokyu dosa, but I doubt that it's explained similarly or with as much depth as it is in the doc you're referencing.

aiki age, aka kokyu dosa. I'd say quite a few aikido "styles" train kokyu dosa. Which means they are trying to achieve aiki age. But, I doubt many aikido "styles" know what aiki age is. I'd be pleasantly surprised to be wrong, though. :)

DH
03-15-2010, 01:07 PM
IAs far as Aiki Age goes, how does the external shape of what happening here conform to the general idea of 'how it's done'?

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2449/aikiage.jpg

Ie: is this the way it's generally done, angles and orientation wise? Or is this an atypical presentation, in your opinion?

Bob
There are several ways to accomplish aiki-age as a waza, it's more important to focus on the body connection and aiki-age (rising energy) can be in every part of your body. I typically have someone grab the back of my thigh, by my knee, and do aiki-age from contact there. You can do it from various body parts, to include any number of judo or jujitsu throws and a direct correlation to MMA and sticks using a combination of aiki-age as a waza and as power. Again I would ignore the technique and focus on the body.
no comment on the Guy in the picture.
Dan

chillzATL
03-15-2010, 01:07 PM
aiki age, aka kokyu dosa. I'd say quite a few aikido "styles" train kokyu dosa. Which means they are trying to achieve aiki age. But, I doubt many aikido "styles" know what aiki age is. I'd be pleasantly surprised to be wrong, though. :)

yep, that's what I meant. If they're teaching it as aiki age, I want to know where :)

bob_stra
03-15-2010, 01:07 PM
Angles? Orientation wise? IMO, when you get to that kind of discussion, you're talking about jujutsu principles. Good jujutsu can mimic good internal skills in outward appearances. While doing aiki age with jujutsu or with aiki may look the same, from uke's experience, though, both will rarely be confused as the same thing.

With "internal" aiki age -- someone I know once told me ... how low can you go to make up? (paraphrasing).

Aiki age, to me, is all about intent and what is happening in one's own body. Take the ki society "unbendable arm" example. Quite a few people have stated to imagine the arm as a hose and water is going through the hose, out the arm. When I'm using "intent", I'm saying take the ki society example and put it on steroids -- a more directed, stronger intent throughout the body in contradictory directions and then add intent going down the body into the ground and up into uke.

IMO, this is part of what Ueshiba talked about with heaven and earth. His intent is sinking as far down into the earth as he can and then going out under uke and up into uke. His intent was going up into heaven as far as he can, out over uke and then down into uke. Depending on whether you want aiki age or aiki sage, one intent is more directed and stronger. Now, toss in that you would be in the middle of heaven and earth while doing this and you can see how someone could say they are the bridge between them.

Now, let's say your "intent", concentration, etc are so refined that you feel like you have puppet strings controlling your hands. You feel like you are above yourself looking down. You have a moment where the world slows down, seems semi-dreamy, a type of energy euphoria sets in, and then maybe, you can start to see how someone can say that they can be the avatar for the kami.

That's all true (and a great discussion in and of itself). What I'm asking though is - does the picture represent the general shape of aiki-age, and the general flow of motion's arrow...or is it atypical?

It does actually relate to the points you raise, in truth.

EDIT: For the sake of disclosure, I believe the gentleman in question is Sagawa, from DR fame. That's neither here nor there though, so don't let it cloud your answers unduly. OTOH, if you think it's pertinent...

MM
03-15-2010, 01:34 PM
That's all true (and a great discussion in and of itself). What I'm asking though is - does the picture represent the general shape of aiki-age, and the general flow of motion's arrow...or is it atypical?

It does actually relate to the points you raise, in truth.

EDIT: For the sake of disclosure, I believe the gentleman in question is Sagawa, from DR fame. That's neither here nor there though, so don't let it cloud your answers unduly. OTOH, if you think it's pertinent...

I think aikido people would say that they recognize the pictures and that they look like the start of kokyu dosa.

But, if you talk about the concept of aiki age, then it can be done from anywhere as it is a principle of the body and the results can be just as varied. Commonalities from uke will be statements like, I felt like I was floating, I felt like someone lifted me upwards, I felt like my feet lost contact with the ground, I lost my strength, etc.

IMO, kokyu dosa can be an aikido exercise which uses the principle of aiki age. Your link to the pictures shows a typical response during this exercise, but isn't the whole exercise. Kokyu dosa can also contain other internal principles at work.

In short, I'd say that the pictures *look* like part of a kokyu dosa exercise. But, I'd have a hard time stating if they are aiki age.

Mike Sigman
03-15-2010, 04:35 PM
Yeah - kokyu dosa is what I was referencing - more or less, isn't that the same thing?
It's like the argument of whether Spiritus Sanctus translates as "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost" at a multi-denominational gathering, Bob. Not knowing the proper doctrine, you got docked into "non-Aikido". ;)

JW
03-15-2010, 06:34 PM
Bob-- it looks like the kokyu dosa I learned in Iwama style aikido. I would agree with what has been said, that kokyu dosa can be done without aiki.
Now that I know more though-- I think if you look at his back, you see a nice example of closing in 2 and opening in frame #3. We could survey aikido photos or videos-- my guess is we would see lots of people NOT doing that. Funny thing though-- if you know enough, you find that the classic form you get taught in aikido pretty much tells you: "bring in uke with a close motion and go underneath him, and expand in an opening movement from underneath him." The form itself tells you this, like a little message from decades back. (You can't see the "message" I am talking about in the photos, it is in the arms and hands. You don't have to show it that way either, it is sort of like teaching vs application)

Al Gutierrez
03-15-2010, 11:56 PM
That doesn't look like Sagawa to me.

bob_stra
03-16-2010, 07:52 AM
Yes, quite right. Not Sagawa but some of his latter students. Sorry, I misspoke.

Tatsushin
03-19-2010, 09:17 AM
Hi bob,

cool pics!may is ask where you got those pictures from?(book,magazine etc)

Regards,

Thomas

Aran Bright
03-29-2010, 03:11 AM
Hi Bob,

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say "yes". At least as I learnt it.

Aran

Lonin
08-29-2010, 07:10 PM
IMO, that would be some person trying to do aiki-age without the direct instructions from the sagawa dojo. It is also similar to the way yoshinkan aikidokas do the suwariwaza kokyo ho when your uke pushes into you. The end bit differs as yoshinkan aikido always end with toes up and whole body unit moved.

Chris Covington
08-30-2010, 08:47 AM
IMO, that would be some person trying to do aiki-age without the direct instructions from the sagawa dojo. It is also similar to the way yoshinkan aikidokas do the suwariwaza kokyo ho when your uke pushes into you. The end bit differs as yoshinkan aikido always end with toes up and whole body unit moved.

The gentlemen in the photo are from the Sagawa dojo. I think the fellow taking ukemi is actually Mr. Takahashi one of the three head teachers at the Sagawa dojo today, along with Prof. Kimura and one other (forgot his name). See a post I made over on E-budo for a link with a lot more information: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=486007&postcount=44

Best regards,

Lonin
08-30-2010, 11:53 PM
The gentlemen in the photo are from the Sagawa dojo

I stand corrected then. Happy training

thisisnotreal
08-31-2010, 09:22 AM
IMO, that would be some person trying to do aiki-age without the direct instructions from the sagawa dojo.
Hi Loh, What were you looking for, that you did'nt see?

HL1978
08-31-2010, 11:29 AM
So what are they working on in that picture sequence that differs from normal kokyu dosa?

Lonin
09-03-2010, 09:46 PM
The daitoryu wrist movements may be missing (ala okuden), Uke is still upright in frame 3, kuzhushi incomplete. My take is that of a very big and strong Nage uprooting smaller uke vertically upwards with a tensed and locked body.....not sagawa philosophy....just my two cents

David Yap
09-07-2010, 02:09 AM
The daitoryu wrist movements may be missing (ala okuden), Uke is still upright in frame 3, kuzhushi incomplete. My take is that of a very big and strong Nage uprooting smaller uke vertically upwards with a tensed and locked body.....not sagawa philosophy....just my two cents

Loh,

What you see may not be what you get :D

David Y

Carsten Möllering
09-07-2010, 03:27 AM
The discussion about the differences between aiki age in non-aikido traditions like Daito ryu or Kashima shin ryu and the kokyo ho of Aikido is always very interesting to me.

Can someone name those differences or elaborate what distinguishes them?

Carsten

MM
09-07-2010, 08:49 AM
The discussion about the differences between aiki age in non-aikido traditions like Daito ryu or Kashima shin ryu and the kokyo ho of Aikido is always very interesting to me.

Can someone name those differences or elaborate what distinguishes them?

Carsten

Aiki age is a Daito ryu principle. As Dan posted, it's "rising energy". I know of two aikido schools who have used this phrase -- those of Tomiki and Shioda. But, then again, they were Daito ryu students of Ueshiba.

Modern aikido tends to use the term kokyu ho or kokyu dosa.

Kokyu ho is defined here:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=418

Youtube version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsBDgaDtTtM

The kneeling version shown in the beginning of the vid is what other aikido people call "kokyu dosa".

Both of these terms, kokyu ho and kokyu dosa, typically refer to an exercise.

The difference in the two terms:
aiki age is a principle
kokyu ho/kokyu dosa is an exercise

The similarities should be that when you are practicing the exercise kokyu ho/kokyu dosa, you should be practicing the principle aiki age. But, that doesn't mean this is always true. YMMV in each dojo/school/teacher.

Mark

thisisnotreal
09-07-2010, 10:44 AM
Now, as of aiki age, presently, even this technique are often misunderstood. Many people confuse this with Kokyuho in aikido. They looks alike but their purpose is completely different. That is Kokyuhou or Tenchinage in akido originally meant atemi into jaw with palm. In Daitoryu, there are no concept to push someone down with charge like in sumo. The correct concept is to uplift your opponent or smash opponent directly below and the techniques which exemplify this fundamental principle are aiki age (aiki lift) and aiki sage (aiki takedown). These two use entire body and are not mere hand techniques. Hence by looking at even one photo, one could tell whether someone has managed to do it or not. Extremely bad example is when one push someone down just by using body weight . If one do aiki age from kneeling position, if someone standing losing balance on top of you even if your back is straight and your haven't broken your keeling, then it is the real deal. And if you have opportunity to experience aiki age, pay close attention to the feeling when you grab this person's arm. With someone who can really do this, there are rarely any sensation of grip because there is no collision of power. Accordingly, anyone who push back with force are out of question. And the biggest difference between correct aiki age and the incorrect one are whether one can make the movement smaller and smaller through training. If one try to push back with force or using body weight, one will never be able to do it. That is, true purpose of aiki is to utilise aiki in every taijutu technique by making it smaller and sharper through polishing your technique. That is why I mentioned in other place that if you got wrong teacher, you never make it.

from< (http://flintstonecom.blogspot.com/2009/03/what-is-aiki-by-yoshimine-yasuo.html). Did I understand right, there is a book by Yasuo?
This< (http://books.google.ca/books?id=P4PjDUS3wBMC&lpg=PA36&ots=1noiBtuIlZ&dq=aiki%20age%20is%20a%20principle&pg=PA36#v=onepage&q=aiki%20age%20is%20a%20principle&f=false) was interesting too.

thisisnotreal
09-07-2010, 11:34 AM
Sorry; I think that came out rude; I meant: Is there a book written by Yoshimine Yasuo? And if so; is there an English translation? Couldn't quite figure that out..

Allen Beebe
09-07-2010, 05:18 PM
Aiki age is a Daito ryu principle. As Dan posted, it's "rising energy". I know of two aikido schools who have used this phrase -- those of Tomiki and Shioda. But, then again, they were Daito ryu students of Ueshiba.

Modern aikido tends to use the term kokyu ho or kokyu dosa.

Kokyu ho is defined here:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=418

Youtube version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsBDgaDtTtM

The kneeling version shown in the beginning of the vid is what other aikido people call "kokyu dosa".

Both of these terms, kokyu ho and kokyu dosa, typically refer to an exercise.

The difference in the two terms:
aiki age is a principle
kokyu ho/kokyu dosa is an exercise

The similarities should be that when you are practicing the exercise kokyu ho/kokyu dosa, you should be practicing the principle aiki age. But, that doesn't mean this is always true. YMMV in each dojo/school/teacher.

Mark

FWIW,

The 法 (Ho) in 呼吸法 Kokyuho is commonly defined as "law," such as a "law of nature" or "Buddhist law."

Whereas 動作 (dosa) in 呼吸動作 (kokyudosa) commonly refers to "action; movements; motions; bearing; behaviour; behavior; execution; actuation; operation; manners."

So in my mind, for whatever that is worth, I've always thought of Kokyuho as a referent to a law or principal, while Kokyuhdosa was a referent to Kokyu in action. Kokyu WAZA are a specific collection of kata. So they appear in order of increasing specificity.

No Kokyuho = No Kokyu Dosa
No Kokyu Dosa = No Kokyu Waza*

*The Kata can still be performed, just without any Kokyu Dosa reflecting Kokyu Ho.

So, anyway, it seems to me, to my mind at least, the whole Kokyu thing isn't that dissimilar from Aiki Age in that both phrases can be (and are commonly) used as a referents to a Principle/Law, a movement, or a particular waza. Also, both are susceptible to individual interpretation, or mis-interpretation depending upon one's view.

Of course Aiki Age and Aiki Sage, on the surface at least, appear to be a bit more discrete in their directional reference than Kokyu . . . on the other hand, if they are not linear in nature then where does the Age or Sage begin or end exactly? Perhaps there specificity is more of a referent of relative convenience rather than an absolute.

Okay, I'll stop rambling, I just thought that the Ho/Dosa differentiation my be pertinent to some readers. For more scholarly discussion of linguistics I rapidly differ and bow to my superiors . . .

Oh and as far as specific definitions of the laws, principles, actions, and any associated techniques one may routinely associate with those actions, principles and laws, I again rapidly differ to my superiors . . .

Allen

Peter Goldsbury
09-08-2010, 07:46 AM
Hello Allen,

To what extent do you think that Aiki-age / Age-sage demonstrates a law, as against action, movements, execution etc (the distinction reflected in your own post about 法 vesrsus 動作)?

Presumably the action, movements execution of 動作 would be in accordance with the 法.

Or have I completely misunderstood you?

Best wishes,

PAG

Allen Beebe
09-08-2010, 03:29 PM
Hi Peter,

I hoped we would be hearing from you. I also hoped to avoid personal embarrassment by preemptively deferring to those (you being one) that clearly have superior knowledge and/or experience in the area of linguistics and/or "laws, principles, actions and any associated techniques . . . "


Oh and as far as specific definitions of the laws, principles, actions, and any associated techniques one may routinely associate with those actions, principles and laws, I again rapidly differ to my superiors . . .

See??? So, THANK A LOT PETER!

Nevertheless, I will endeavor to demonstrate good faith by sharing the following extremely general metaphor:

The human body has a systemic circulatory system. That system, as the name implies, describes a circuit. In simplistic terms, here is blood flowing away from the heart and blood flowing (returning) toward the heart, describing a circle of sorts. One direction could be called Aiki Age and one could be called Aiki Sage. Now this describes directionality or an action but it also describes a law or a principle. There is direction to the blood and it is in action. On the other hand, when oxygen and nutrients enter the body, or when toxins, etc. leave the body they must follow the "law" or "principle" of the systemic circulatory system or health will be impaired. When the law of the systemic circulatory system is broken, not only is health (optimal functioning) impaired but the results also requires an instantaneous, although often unnoticed allocation of bodily resources to try to bring the "violation" back into some semblance of order. This "band aid" not only depletes resources but also is never as efficient as the original system the the entire organism is compromised in an ongoing fashion. Furthermore, their is commonly a resultant stagnation/storage/excess or depletion which can result in "toxicity" or weakness. All of this due to the breaking of the "law" of the systemic circulatory system.

On the other hand, one can build up the system such that it, not only has a larger than normal standing capacity, but it is also more efficient and has a higher than normal capacity for receiving and processing incoming material as well as exiting it. The training to build the circulatory system takes place consciously, while the results are something that one "does" unconsciously (or consciously at will in the case of some) AND also "is." (One either has a highly developed and efficient circulatory system or one doesn't.)

Well that is my try at articulating what I meant by the Principle/Action relationship via a metaphor. Once again, please let me emphasize that: A) I am still trying to figure this out myself. B) It seems to me that there are folks further down the path than I. And, C) If anyone of those folks that are further down the path than I would care to share their wisdom, I like to think that I would be the first to shut up, sit back (if that were appropriate) and learn what I can.

If I completely misunderstood your question or if I my attempt at an answer was completely opaque (both of which are possible and probably likely in my case) and if you think it worth the trouble, please don't hesitate to ask for clarification and I will make another attempt despite my limited resources and capacity.

It is great to hear from you BTW,
Allen

Mark Jakabcsin
09-08-2010, 03:59 PM
Of course Aiki Age and Aiki Sage, on the surface at least, appear to be a bit more discrete in their directional reference than Kokyu . . . on the other hand, if they are not linear in nature then where does the Age or Sage begin or end exactly? Perhaps there specificity is more of a referent of relative convenience rather than an absolute.



Allen,
I am not sure I am understanding your posts (this one or the next one) but your posts are making my brain work which is good.

For clarity do you see Aiki age and Aiki sage as linear in nature?

Why would either need a defined begining or end point?

If a begining/end point is needed wouldn't that point be the same? i.e. where tori's leverage to the planet is located?

Take care,

Mark J.

Allen Beebe
09-08-2010, 06:39 PM
Hi Mark,

I am not sure I am understanding your posts (this one or the next one)

Yeah, I was afraid of that. Should have just left my big mouth shut! (As usual. :( ) I admit that I am a weak and flawed human being that frequently succumbs to the temptation of the keyboard . . . especially while succumbing to the temptation of wine! :p

but your posts are making my brain work which is good.

Thanks. Thought provoking is better that down right dumb. I'll take it! :o

For clarity do you see Aiki age and Aiki sage as linear in nature?

No. Not linear at all in the sense of terminability. Just the opposite really. I see them (keeping in mind that my opinion is probably worth what you are paying for it) as forming a mutually created, and therefore ideally balanced, circuit. I see them as existing in "my" body/mind continuous with the ubiquitous forces that surround and permeate "me."

Why would either need a defined begining or end point?

Well that is what I was pondering. Linguistically it seemed to me that the terms imply a beginning/end, zenith/nadir, or at least some dualistically implied relative relationship. While at the same time my understanding denied that duality. I added it to the list of things that make me go, "Hmmm!?!?"

If a begining/end point is needed wouldn't that point be the same?

I guess, but my mind troubles at the whole "point" idea. My intuition tells me that the "point" would need to be a "singularity." But, while that is all fine and dandy in theory, and actually seems to comply with my experience to a certain degree. Nevertheless, I get uncomfortable when I can't explain things in "everyday" simple terms and the ever present pragmatist side of my personality demands to see immediate non-negotiable evidence.

i.e. where tori's leverage to the planet is located?

I don't know. There is gravitational force applying itself to every atom of "my" body. There is the "push back" force of the earth applying itself to "my" body. There are combo forces (resultant forces of the combination of those two) such as air pressure/wind/another individual's physically applied force. There is the "force" of my sentience that somehow manages these forces. (BTW IMHO there is immediate non-negotiable evidence for this despite rumors to the contrary! SHUT UP GUYS!!) And there is the "force" of other sentient being's sentience managing these same forces.

I'm not saying, "No." I'm saying I'm still learning. I will say that non-linearity seems to work a whole lot better than linearity. And it also seems to coincide with a significant number of O-sensei's doka that seem to me to be, at once, explicit AND poetic.

But here is the thing for me. Unless I can walk the talk, I don't think I should be talking much, particularly on international public forums. :confused:

So, please, let me re-emphasize (desperately) that my original post was merely pointing out that, in my experience, there is a differentiation between the terms Kokyu Ho (Pointing to a law or principle) and Kokyu Dosa (Pointing to an action). And I personally saw a parallel between that relationship and that of Aiki Age and Sage which in my experience could be understood as either a principle or as description.

So, to sum up. No to linearity. I'm not sure about the "leverage to the planet thing." My present model/understanding is focused on balancing forces (all kinds) in a non-linear fashion (in my body and with my body) with the concentration on the balance/harmonization/unification rather than on a particular force or "possessor" of the force. Consequently, there is no contention, stress, strain, enemy, etc. "I" am transparent, there is only power therefore I am the Universe . . . but wait . . . AND I'm above average, pleasant to be around, smell nice and am irresistibly attractive!! :D

Sounds good . . . too bad I still suck! :uch:

When will you be back in Stump town?

Allen

Mark Jakabcsin
09-08-2010, 09:55 PM
When will you be back in Stump town?



I chose to become unempl......errr.. self-employed earlier this year, hence I am no longer traveling the entire USA at my whim. Although I will be in SeaTown later this month. Hopefully I will get to catch up with N.Y. and company, plus the Systema crowd.

Sorry I have no answers to your questions but I enjoy listening to your thoughts, thanks for sharing.

You kinda highlight one of my long standing issues; using Japanese (or other language terms) to describe different concepts. As these terms are rarely agreed upon in the native language it becomes even more inane when English speakers attempt to use the terms. Universal agreement, let alone understanding, makes discussion challenging at best and requires an initial or base-line agreement of each term to be discussed. ....... On second thought much of the disagreement on any forum is directly related to different understanding of the terms. Perhaps not a bad thing as one can learn / be exposed to new ideas simply by listening.

The leverage from the planet is in regard to a strictly physical understanding of the topic. While gravity pulls on all parts of the body, we generally connect with a limited portion of the body and that is where our leverage (poor choice of words) originates.

Question: Can we have up with out down? Can we have down without up? Translate that to can we have aiki age without aiki sage or the reverse?

Take care,

Mark J.

phitruong
09-09-2010, 08:33 AM
i thought the begin of aiki age is aiki sage and vice versa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUS219OXF38#t=53s

although, Okamoto sensei did it with his hands, it should be with the whole body. i am pretty sure he did it with his body internally, but to show it with his hands.

don't see why aikiage and aikisage couldn't be lateral movements which would be clockwise and counter clockwise or combine with up and down to give spiral up and spiral down.

personally, i don't think the shape matter all that much. then again, what do i know about this stuffs, since i am a novice at it where i got my toes stuck in the door jam. :)

thisisnotreal
09-10-2010, 01:10 PM
..I enjoy listening to your thoughts, thanks for sharing.
Yes. Me too. Thank you. It is always so interesting to hear others' thoughts on it.

IIRC: I remember Sagawa saying about figuring out aiki age, i believe doing this very exercise, when he was 17, by his Dad holding him down strongly...and that this was his initial discovery of aiki. That seems like he was trying to drop a big hint in that we should be working on this problem. .. although it has to be noted that he did feel it first from Takeda..so that stands to reason that must have been some kind of inspiration.

Do you think this is a good way into figuring out aiki age? (i.e. just doing kokyu ho agains harder and harder holds)?
I don't know.

/some thoughts.

Keith Larman
09-10-2010, 01:24 PM
Just fwiw, I find it vastly more educational for myself to test things like this with new students. Especially strong new students who've never seen it before. I ask them to hold and hold tight and hard. Put energy in like they're trying to drive me backwards as they hold. Make it hard for me. I think the problem is that experienced folk tend to have something they *want* to feel and they'll go with it when they feel that thing the expect. I'm not talking about some sort of overt thing but more of a problem of too many years training in certain ways. I love having some big goon with no preconceptions grab on. Then I have a real problem to solve and aikiage is one of those things that seems magical for real when you can pull it off correctly in that context.

Just a view from the cheap seats...

gregstec
09-10-2010, 08:56 PM
Just fwiw, I find it vastly more educational for myself to test things like this with new students. Especially strong new students who've never seen it before. I ask them to hold and hold tight and hard. Put energy in like they're trying to drive me backwards as they hold. Make it hard for me. I think the problem is that experienced folk tend to have something they *want* to feel and they'll go with it when they feel that thing the expect. I'm not talking about some sort of overt thing but more of a problem of too many years training in certain ways. I love having some big goon with no preconceptions grab on. Then I have a real problem to solve and aikiage is one of those things that seems magical for real when you can pull it off correctly in that context.

Just a view from the cheap seats...

I sit a lot in the cheap seats too, and like you, I like playing with big and strong newbies as well for the very same reasons - they don't know what is coming therefore they won't know how to set up to block it and they won't go with it because all they know is to grab tight - you really have to do it right to make it work :)

Greg

Rob Watson
09-11-2010, 01:24 AM
... with new students. Especially strong new students who've never seen it before. I ask them to hold and hold tight and hard.

I like playing with big and strong newbies as well for the very same reasons

As long as the cheap seats are open ... I always find the excessive tightness in newbie shoulders make the execution trivial. Making it work on someone who knows what's up and trying to foil and still being able to pull it off is what makes my clock tick. But, I am big strong and good looking.

Lorel Latorilla
09-11-2010, 01:55 AM
Great thread.

Aiki-age is the number one thing I'm tackling with right now. You really have to wrap your mind around the concept of 'softness'--of course in practise, not abstractly--otherwise, you end up doing aiki-age using pure frame or even worse, shoulder muscle. I think that it has to do with the sensation of getting 'under' the other guy by allowing all the 'atoms' of your body (nice one Allen) to get pulled by gravity to create a 'gravitational' bounce that you manipulate to uproot the other guy (aiki age/rising 'energy'). It's finding a sweet spot in your body--incidentally things like standing-up right are positive byproducts in trying to find this 'sweet spot'. Aiki-age standing is the hardest because you have to learn how the pressure applied on the front side of your arms can be sunk down to the back side of your feet. Since you're working with the extremities here, aiki-age kinda forces you to think about how your body is connected not just from a skeletal angle, but also from a myofascial angle (i.e, how does the fascia wrap around itself around the body?) etc.

gregstec
09-11-2010, 07:51 AM
As long as the cheap seats are open ... I always find the excessive tightness in newbie shoulders make the execution trivial. Making it work on someone who knows what's up and trying to foil and still being able to pull it off is what makes my clock tick.....

Very true about the tightness in newbies - it makes it very easy to make a connection to center, but the really big and strong ones can still lock you down where you must use aiki to make it work and not subconsciously allow your muscle to come into play.

As far as playing with those of some IT skill is concerned, I agree that is where the real fun begins :)

Greg

Stormcrow34
09-11-2010, 05:53 PM
I often get chastised for using "muscle" on suwari waza. Seems to me it feels right and effortless when I don't "try" to do it, but just do it as if no one is even there. I don't know if that makes any sense. My head hurts.

gregstec
09-11-2010, 06:20 PM
I often get chastised for using "muscle" on suwari waza. Seems to me it feels right and effortless when I don't "try" to do it, but just do it as if no one is even there. I don't know if that makes any sense. My head hurts.

One of my favorite mental approaches is to do exactly the same thing - forget Uke and only focus on the movement within you; when you connect with Uke in that mode, there is no conscious effort and they just come along for the ride :) The hard part though is trying to ignore Uke since we are so conditioned to focus on the external attack.

Greg

Robert Cowham
09-13-2010, 05:59 PM
Do you think this is a good way into figuring out aiki age? (i.e. just doing kokyu ho agains harder and harder holds)?
I have heard that at Kimura sensei's dojo (successor to Sagawa sensei, and author of Transparent Power), they alternate between no resistance (e.g. tens of times just lifting arms fully relaxed), and then many repetitions with full on resistance with nothing held back.

Eric Winters
09-13-2010, 07:24 PM
As long as the cheap seats are open ... I always find the excessive tightness in newbie shoulders make the execution trivial. Making it work on someone who knows what's up and trying to foil and still being able to pull it off is what makes my clock tick. But, I am big strong and good looking.

Dude, You keep mentioning how good looking you are. I have seen you you know. :D

Rob Watson
09-15-2010, 01:06 PM
Dude, You keep mentioning how good looking you are. I have seen you you know. :D

Are you stalking me again? Just can't keep your mind and eyes off of me ... I'm even prettier on the inside! When uke looks deeply into my pretty hazel jewels they just float up and aiki age happens all by itself. Never underestimate the beguile factor.

Rob Watson
09-15-2010, 01:13 PM
I have heard that at Kimura sensei's dojo (successor to Sagawa sensei, and author of Transparent Power), they alternate between no resistance (e.g. tens of times just lifting arms fully relaxed), and then many repetitions with full on resistance with nothing held back.

The stronger the better, I says. Now that I've pondered a bit I don't think the shape is so important per se as long as the connection is there and one gets under ... it can look pretty ugly sometimes but still works. Kind of depends on exactly how and in which directions uke is going with the grab.

Sensei once described a practice from M. Saito in Iwama where everyone would work against a wall in the dojo doing suwariwaza kokyu dosa against the wall. Pretty quickly one finds a way to push themselves down into the mat as opposed to pushing ones self away from the wall. Seems like a good practice to isolate and eliminate some variables. Adding another person does tend to make things a bit more complex.

MM
09-15-2010, 01:40 PM
The stronger the better, I says. Now that I've pondered a bit I don't think the shape is so important per se as long as the connection is there and one gets under ... it can look pretty ugly sometimes but still works. Kind of depends on exactly how and in which directions uke is going with the grab.


Hello,

In general, the "shape" (defined as the outward physical manifestation in uke) is up in some manner. aiki age = rising energy. So, in some way, yeah, I agree that the "shape" is not so important.

However, I do disagree with your last sentence. It really shouldn't matter how, where, or in which direction uke is grabbing, striking, holding, etc. aiki age as a principle of energy rising should happen whenever, wherever, however uke comes into physical contact with tori/nage/etc.

The "shape" should really just be the "effect" on uke when uke comes into contact with the principle of aiki age in tori/nage/etc. aiki age is within tori/nage/etc. The "shape" is how uke reacts.


Do you think this is a good way into figuring out aiki age? (i.e. just doing kokyu ho agains harder and harder holds)?


Everything in progression. :) Why train against very hard holds if you just automatically resist with muscle? Work to the point of failure and work through it, progressively pushing your point of failure farther.

thisisnotreal
09-15-2010, 10:08 PM
1/ Akuzawa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJVQMCWeOA#t=0m14s)
/2 Akuzawa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYlMC6gUoM&feature=related#t=0m7s)
/3 Endo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US_FYDzNh0w)
/4 Ueshiba Morihei (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uYD8prpmF0&feature=related#t=2m24s)
/5 Ueshiba Kisshomaru (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tosvSjm92Co&feature=related)
/6 Okamoto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKJm3Sn4K-I&feature=related#t=0m15s)

thisisnotreal
09-15-2010, 10:12 PM
good post Lorel

Carsten Möllering
09-16-2010, 03:41 AM
1/ Akuzawa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJVQMCWeOA#t=0m14s)
/2 Akuzawa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYlMC6gUoM&feature=related#t=0m7s)
/3 Endo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US_FYDzNh0w)
/4 Ueshiba Morihei (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uYD8prpmF0&feature=related#t=2m24s)
/5 Ueshiba Kisshomaru (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tosvSjm92Co&feature=related)
/6 Okamoto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKJm3Sn4K-I&feature=related#t=0m15s)

Thank you for posting.
Could you be so kind to explain, what you want to express?

David Yap
09-17-2010, 03:36 AM
Thank you for posting.
Could you be so kind to explain, what you want to express?

Speaking for Josh, I believe he is referring to different shapes of aiki age alias kokyu-ho.

Erick Mead
09-17-2010, 08:33 AM
The 法 (Ho) in 呼吸法 Kokyuho is commonly defined as "law," such as a "law of nature" or "Buddhist law." Also, though in the Chinese reading (it differs little in this case) -- in 兵法 Bīng Fǎ, Sun-zi's famous treatise on war. 法 is closer in reference to the Greek techne which we now separate into two aspects "art" and "technology" -- but they did not. And so our technology became ugly and our art useless.

There is a lesson here, I think.

Of course Aiki Age and Aiki Sage, on the surface at least, appear to be a bit more discrete in their directional reference than Kokyu . . . on the other hand, if they are not linear in nature then where does the Age or Sage begin or end exactly? Perhaps there specificity is more of a referent of relative convenience rather than an absolute. I identify aiki with the manipulation (法?) of pure shears. Pure shears exploit the gyrational qualities of structures (http://www.uoregon.edu/~struct/courseware/461/461_lectures/461_lecture30/461_lecture30.html), statically and dynamically. Juji or the perpendicular principle of action, alters the eccentricity of loads on the structure, to create shears from existing poised loads without altering them directly.

A wave is a dynamic shear translated through a medium. In a wave, the water at the trough edge is drawn under and up the rear of the swell. The crest is drawn over and down the face. This is the principle/law/method of aiki age and aiki sage/inyoho/kokyuho etc...

If pure shear is present both complementary actions are in action simultaneously in every case -- but, as in the breaking wave (aiki sage) or the tsunami's lengthy drawout (aiki age) -- not always obviously coincident -- dare I say, one is quite often omote and the other ura.

Lorel Latorilla
09-17-2010, 11:03 AM
"A wave is a dynamic shear translated through a medium. In a wave, the water at the trough edge is drawn under and up the rear of the swell"

I've been enlightened! I now know the next step to internal bodyskill!

Erick Mead
09-17-2010, 04:58 PM
"A wave is a dynamic shear translated through a medium. In a wave, the water at the trough edge is drawn under and up the rear of the swell"

I've been enlightened! I now know the next step to internal bodyskill!Ah, but can you surf ? -- That's the question. ;)

The topic was the relationship of the two principles (age - sage)and their relation to the shape of the action in the OP.

Is my observation wrong, in your view? If so, how would you better describe it ?

Flintstone
09-18-2010, 03:30 AM
That's very interesting, Erick. Could you please elaborate on juji altering the eccentricity of loads "without altering them directly".

Thank you,
Alex.

Erick Mead
09-18-2010, 01:33 PM
That's very interesting, Erick. Could you please elaborate on juji altering the eccentricity of loads "without altering them directly".

Thank you,
Alex."Not altering directly" in the sense of neither adding to nor diminishing ... An applied load at 90 degrees to another load ( or pair of opposed loads poised statically), alters the eccentricity of the load without changing its magnitude -- neither opposing it or adding any extra energy. To shear a structure in this manner the necessary applied load in Juji is very small in proportion to the typical poised static loads (e.g. -- your weight poised against the earth's resistance at any support joint).

An oscillation applied (or the static "shape" equivalent -- like a shifting standing wave -- tegatana -- see the OP image again) "pushes" that wave-like eccentricity displacement (irimi-tenkan principle) through the structure until it finds a support joint that is incapable of recovering from the displacement and that progressively buckles the whole thing -- either in compression (aiki-sage) or in tension (aiki-age) or in both simultaneously (tenchi). Biomechanical manipulations also play into it -- but only because the body is naturally attuned to its critical vulnerability to these things and reflexively responds to those if they occur at a resonant frequency (e.g. -- furitama or tekubifuri) before the target can consciously react.