Jamming a technique

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[David Yap]

Hi all,

Can anyone define exactly what constitute a "jam".

For example, is a very firm grip on a senior yudansha consider a jam? Preventing a technique from working - a jam? Not knowing a technique and unable to flow with the nage - a jam?

And, when is a jam polite and when it is not?

Hope to hear from you.

Best training

David Y

[SeiserL]

IMHO, initiate and intercept before the approach/attack reaches its maximum power extension on the intended target, usually ends up taking their balance.

[jss]

Can anyone define exactly what constitute a "jam".
Willfully and actively preventing tori from making the technique happen, so that nothing really happens. (So no taking over by uke.)

For example, is a very firm grip on a senior yudansha consider a jam? Preventing a technique from working - a jam? Not knowing a technique and unable to flow with the nage - a jam?
No, unless you keep changing your grip to jam the solutions the yudansha comes up with to deal with your grip.
Yes.
No. The situation as such is more complicated than that, but with regards to jamming: that's just poor execution by nage.

And, when is a jam polite and when it is not?
When the person jamming the technique does it to make a valid point and the person being jammed can accept this as a teaching or training methodology.

[ruthmc]

It's a jam when uke blocks tori from attacking their own centre via the technique because they know what's coming next and purposefully move to avoid it.

It's probably only ok to jam if tori is about to inflict injury on uke or throw uke into somebody else or the wall.

Ruth

[George S. Ledyard]

Hi all,

Can anyone define exactly what constitute a "jam".

For example, is a very firm grip on a senior yudansha consider a jam? Preventing a technique from working - a jam? Not knowing a technique and unable to flow with the nage - a jam?

And, when is a jam polite and when it is not?

Hope to hear from you.

Best training

David Y

"Jamming" would be any action which stops the flow of movement. It can be offensive or defensive, in other words uke or nage might "jam" a technique.

It's not what is "polite" it's what makes sense martially. If someone stops your technique but is totally "open" then "jamming" in that way was not martially effective. Ones partner should make one aware of this by hitting him.

"Jamming" is usually used effectively as a "bounce". I "jam" your movement and let your power rebound off my power then I give the movement a new direction.

"Jamming" can also be used to simply crush your opponent's defenses for striking purposes.

Simply stopping someone's technique is not good ukemi. If you grab someone strongly so they can't do a technique but they are still able to strike you or kick you, then it was bad ukemi. So if that's what is meant by "jamming" than it' not a good idea.

[DH]

Its worth considering that jamming (stopping movement) has diminishing returns and is really not a way to go. It is far more effective and useful to "change" and keep movement going. A bounce-or the way I would bounce people- is all about redirecting force, not hitting power to power. At no time do I ever consider power-to-power acceptable. Even when for all intent and purpose it looks to an outsider like a crashing of forces it is not at all what is happening, even with straight jabs-to-jabs and stick-to-stick. The displacement goes all but unseen, it leaves them wondering why they can't get in, but conversely can't avoid you coming in, and they just keep getting hit and controlled.

I like nothing better than for an attacker to think he has what he wants...till it's taken away. Misdirection, either by adding or taking away is far more effective martially. It's all about change not stopping or jamming. The only real difference I see is what MAers do -or should I say HAVE to do in order to make change. For many its all about big body changes and telegraphed movements that are easily read and responded to.

There are far superior ways to move that become extremely ghosty then...wham! And you didn't feel where it came from, didn't "read" any perceived movement- as there is no wind up- and your every move is under someone else's control! Aiki works in Aikido, Daito ryu, judo, MMA, and any kind of weapon use and at full speed.
Cheers
Dan

[George S. Ledyard]

Its worth considering that jamming (stopping movement) has diminishing returns and is really not a way to go. It is far more effective and useful to "change" and keep movement going. A bounce-or the way I would bounce people- is all about redirecting force, not hitting power to power. At no time do I ever consider power-to-power acceptable.

Hi Dan,
I agree with everything you've said. I was thinking primarily of techniques like the one Ellis taught us years ago to reverse a shiho nage. It did involve a movement that I would call "jamming" (you struck your own arm to prevent the opponent from passing it throufg to the lock) but it also flowed instantly into a redirection. It did have an element of power to power and it felt like you'd hit a wall when it was done to you. Since the redirection was instantaneous it might not really qualify as "jamming"; it was definitely a "bounce".
- George

[Mark Uttech]

Onegaishimasu. Resisting a technique could be called 'causing a jam'.I tell my students that resisting technique prevents your partner from learning the technique and we are on the mat to help each other learn, not prevent each other from learning.

In gassho,

Mark

[DH]

Hi George
Sure, there are any number of techniques like that, from any number of arts. I think all of us can draw on things we know for examples. I was never a fan of bouncing people out or allowing them to roll away anyway. While I greatly admire Ueshiba choosing to go down that road, I prefer to keep people in contact with me and controlled from various contact points offered by them or me.

My previous comments were based on current training and the path that certain people are now undertaking to develop real aiki and be able to use it. IOW, for the aiki based crowd who are genuinely interested in an Aiki approach that "actually" works across the full spectrum of combatives from aikido to Daito ryu to judo to MMA.

In order to make that work, people need to effect change with every point of contact; be it fients, jabs, grabs, or throws. The real key is people simply cannot do it well without a conditioned aiki body behind it, but having a conditioned body is only the beginning, there are "ways" to use that body with developed internal skills- that are not waza related, rather they are an adaptive fluid approach to all combatives. IME, developed internal power and the knowledge of how to actually use it are most certainly NOT all the same.
Cheers
Dan

P.S.Hey did you get my two text messages in reply to your email? I was doing a seminar in Florida and didn't have email access.

[George S. Ledyard]

Hi George
Sure, there are any number of techniques like that, from any number of arts. I think all of us can draw on things we know for examples. I was never a fan of bouncing people out or allowing them to roll away anyway. While I greatly admire Ueshiba choosing to go down that road, I prefer to keep people in contact with me and controlled from various contact points offered by them or me.

My previous comments were based on current training and the path that certain people are now undertaking to develop real aiki and be able to use it. IOW, for the aiki based crowd who are genuinely interested in an Aiki approach that "actually" works across the full spectrum of combatives from aikido to Daito ryu to judo to MMA.

In order to make that work, people need to effect change with every point of contact; be it fients, jabs, grabs, or throws. The real key is people simply cannot do it well without a conditioned aiki body behind it, but having a conditioned body is only the beginning, there are "ways" to use that body with developed internal skills- that are not waza related, rather they are an adaptive fluid approach to all combatives. IME, developed internal power and the knowledge of how to actually use it are most certainly NOT all the same.
Cheers
Dan

P.S.Hey did you get my two text messages in reply to your email? I was doing a seminar in Florida and didn't have email access.

Yes I did get the messages... it took me a few moments to realize who was writing as it only showed your number not a name. But when you said you were in Florida I knew it was you since I had been at Josh's just the weekend before. Anyway, thanks so much. I am looking forward to getting together at some point soon.

[David Yap]

Thanks, everyone, for your replies.

I have branded as a "Jammer". I was wondering whether I fit the profile of one. So far, I am safe.

I tend to agree with Dan. Aiki is about seeking the path of least resistance (changing directions) rather than going against the resistance. I get irritated by nage who jerks or bounces me around instead of doing a free flowing technique on me. To avoid injury, the jerking and bouncing cause me to stiffen up and assume a defensive stance. Perhaps this is jamming as far as they are concerned.

Best training,

David Y

[ruthmc]

Thanks, everyone, for your replies.

I have branded as a "Jammer". I was wondering whether I fit the profile of one. So far, I am safe.

I tend to agree with Dan. Aiki is about seeking the path of least resistance (changing directions) rather than going against the resistance. I get irritated by nage who jerks or bounces me around instead of doing a free flowing technique on me. To avoid injury, the jerking and bouncing cause me to stiffen up and assume a defensive stance. Perhaps this is jamming as far as they are concerned.

Best training,

David Y

In that case, if you are a Jammer, then they are Jerks!

Some folk need to learn a bit of muscle maturity - to me the ones who drag and jerk you around are like toddlers flailing their arms about with full force and zero control :uch:

Fortunately most people get this control, but there are always a few who don't, in which case you have to do what you need to do to protect yourself :)

Ruth

[Abasan]

David, personally I think if you 'jam' someone because he's only using brute force to throw you, you are ok. Unless of course you're doing it to a beginner who doesn't know anything better. But it depends on nage really. If he's not interested in finding the aiki solution in his training, then don't bother jamming his technique, just flop like an aiki bunny. Saves you a lot of grief in the end.

[Daniel Blanco]

In Aikido we learn from our partner, if your partner is not letting u perform your tech, then its bad for both of you and its bad ukemi, if u are both training on switching from one tech to the other, then uke should provide only moderate resistance so nage can feel and redirect to another tech, aikido is cooperative training so all can learn.

[danj]

Just for fun

Jamming -verb.
When Uke stops or prevents Nage from executing a set technique. Most often found in the wild in the following circumstances
1. When visiting another dojo, where everyone is friendly except the 2ic who needs to mark dojo/style turf (possibly under instruction from sensei)
2. Between 2 practitioners of similar experience or rank trying to decide "size" issues
3. A Sempai demonstrating dominance to a Kohai
4. At seminars or similar, where there is a confluence of Aikidoka, personalities, styles etc...
5. By Aikidoka wondering if Aikido works or proving aikido doesn't work, usually by
a. Beginner
b. Mid Kyu grade
c. Senior student from another art now doing aikido



best,
dan

[David Yap]

David, personally I think if you 'jam' someone because he's only using brute force to throw you, you are ok. Unless of course you're doing it to a beginner who doesn't know anything better. But it depends on nage really. If he's not interested in finding the aiki solution in his training, then don't bother jamming his technique, just flop like an aiki bunny. Saves you a lot of grief in the end.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you, especially the grief part.

[David Yap]

In Aikido we learn from our partner, if your partner is not letting u perform your tech, then its bad for both of you and its bad ukemi, if u are both training on switching from one tech to the other, then uke should provide only moderate resistance so nage can feel and redirect to another tech, aikido is cooperative training so all can learn.

Hi Daniel,

Agreed. Aiki-do practice is Yin practice. Both partners practising pre-agreed movements and even at randori at higher level. I have been training for 17 years and it is not in my nature to jam anyone’s technique unless (as Ruth has indicated) I feel the tori is about to inflict injury to me by not availing to me the space to take ukemi or by excessive use of force. As a tori, I sometime initiate a bit of resistance ("to pull in the slack") in order to search for my partner’s center. As a uke, I am very conscious of my action and I know when to offer constructive resistance but never destructive resistance.

Best training

David Y

[David Yap]

Hi all,

Another action by Nage that "irritates" and put me into a defensive mode. Irimi nage, Tori places his hand on my face with his fingers on or about my eyes. For me, this is an accident/major eye injury waiting to be happened. In my class, I encourage students to place their hands on Uke's neck or side of the face with fingers away from the eyes area and alert them the danger.

When someone puts pressure about my eyes, instinctively, I will push his/her hand away. Is my action consider a jam?

David Y

[Carsten Möllering]

Very interesting!

In Aikido we learn from our partner, if your partner is not letting u perform your tech, then its bad for both of you and its bad ukemi, if u are both training on switching from one tech to the other, then uke should provide only moderate resistance so nage can feel and redirect to another tech, aikido is cooperative training so all can learn.
Dont't you do counters in your training so uke takes over and throws tori?

Another action by Nage that "irritates" and put me into a defensive mode. Irimi nage, Tori places his hand on my face with his fingers on or about my eyes. For me, this is an accident/major eye injury waiting to be happened.We sometimes do techiques to the eyes: Hand on the chin and fingers to the eyes. It's a variation of irimi nage. Don't you practice this one?

We often practice with uke giving strong resistance and with uke trying to hinder the technique. We don't change the technique but try to modify it so we can do it instead.
Don't you practice this way?

If not: What are your ways then to learn to deal with not cooperating uke?

Carsten

[David Yap]

Very interesting!
Dont't you do counters in your training so uke takes over and throws tori?
You meant kaeshi waza. Of course, we do but only from intermediate onwards otherwise we will be creating a lot of jammers who will then go around to say Aiki-do doesn't work. The purpose of kaeshi waza is show that Aiki-do does not work without the underlying principles or the technique was done half-heartedly.
We sometimes do techiques to the eyes: Hand on the chin and fingers to the eyes. It's a variation of irimi nage. Don't you practice this one?
Of course, we do. Like I said, it should be done with care. In a dojo environment, the Uke puts his trust in the Tori and offers an opening to the Tori to practise his technique. If you practise with martial integrity, you would always have one hand ready to cover your face or other openings even when you are attacking. Be realistic, not all Tori have control - they can't tell the difference between an extension and a jerk to the face; some don't even keep their nails short and clean.
We often practice with uke giving strong resistance and with uke trying to hinder the technique. We don't change the technique but try to modify it so we can do it instead.
Don't you practice this way?
We do. Like I said, Aiki-do practise is a Yin practise but there are some who do not realize that and then change it to Yang practice with a Force versus Force training.
If not: What are your ways then to learn to deal with not cooperating uke?
There are Aiki way and the martial integrity way such as strikes. I am pretty good with the latter but I am passionately pursuing the Aiki way.

Best training

David Yap

[Carsten Möllering]

Thank you for answering!

You meant kaeshi waza.Well no, I did not refer to kaeshi waza. Of course kaeshi waza can be subject of our teaching just like other techniques are.

But what I meant is, that - from a certain level on - taking over the action is a normal and expected behavior of our uke everytime we practice.
So, I am not sure but maybe, what here is called "to jam a technique" could be the expected behavior of uke in our practice.

In a dojo environment, the Uke puts his trust in the Tori and offers an opening to the Tori to practise his technique. If you practise with martial integrity, you would always have one hand ready to cover your face or other openings even when you are attacking.
In our practice uke - from a certain level on - is expected not to offer openings. On the contrary he is expected to protect himself and to attack with as much martial integrity the tori can handle.

We do. Like I said, Aiki-do practise is a Yin practise but there are some who do not realize that and then change it to Yang practice with a Force versus Force training.I am not sure what you mean with "yin practice"? Doesn' t aikido consist of yin and yang elements?

There are Aiki way and the martial integrity way such as strikes. I understand you consider strikes not to be part of aiki or aikido?
We do have a lot of strikes in our aikido. Some of us do makiwara-Training.

Greetings,
Carsten

[Eric Winters]

Hello,

In training, Morihiro Saito would say that both uke and nage should feel like they are moving through molasses. There are a couple of reasons to do this. One is it builds up your muscular strength and postural muscles (internal?) and you will know when your body is not in alignment because it will be very hard to move uke. Also you can feel when you have uke's balance because they will not be able to give much resistance. Basically it is not that good to go to both extremes, like being too cooperative or shutting someone down.

Best,

Eric

[David Yap]

Thank you for answering!

Well no, I did not refer to kaeshi waza. Of course kaeshi waza can be subject of our teaching just like other techniques are.

But what I meant is, that - from a certain level on - taking over the action is a normal and expected behavior of our uke everytime we practice.
So, I am not sure but maybe, what here is called "to jam a technique" could be the expected behavior of uke in our practice.

In our practice uke - from a certain level on - is expected not to offer openings. On the contrary he is expected to protect himself and to attack with as much martial integrity the tori can handle.
What you practise is good. But such practice (involving jamming) is not acceptable in most dojo here.
I am not sure what you mean with "yin practice"? Doesn' t aikido consist of yin and yang elements?
Of course, aiki-do consists of yin and yang elements. You also consider the fact that one man's yin is another man's yang.

I understand you consider strikes not to be part of aiki or aikido? We do have a lot of strikes in our aikido. Some of us do makiwara-Training.
Personally, I do a lot of strikes in my other MA so I try not to in my aiki-do. Instead, I try to apply the mechanics of strikings in my aiki-do waza.

Happy training.

David Y

[Abasan]

Hello,

In training, Morihiro Saito would say that both uke and nage should feel like they are moving through molasses. There are a couple of reasons to do this. One is it builds up your muscular strength and postural muscles (internal?) and you will know when your body is not in alignment because it will be very hard to move uke. Also you can feel when you have uke's balance because they will not be able to give much resistance. Basically it is not that good to go to both extremes, like being too cooperative or shutting someone down.

Best,

Eric

can you elaborate what you mean by moving through molasses. Are you saying that uke and nage should be actively or dynamically resisting/attacking uh... slowly?

[barron]

IMHO most "jammers" work from either the position of ego and or the pre-knowledge of the technique and therefore the manner in which they can resist it.
I have rarely learned anything from a jammer other than about their personality/attitude.
When faced with a jammer I like to stand there an smile and then allow them to do the technique on me as I perform the role of Uke to help them to work on their flow and technique. As uke I am working on my flexibility and discovering places I might reverse the technique or apply a good atemi (in my mind).
Cheers

[JO]

The problem with only discovering where you might reverse a technique or apply an atemi "in your mind" is twofold. On the one hand, your mind may be wrong. I've been in techniques I thought I could reverse only to find out i couldn't. How do I know, because I tried and got shot down. On the flipside, if nage leaves gaping holes in his techniques but nobody walks through them, he never learns to close the holes.

Strong attacks and counters aren't necessarily about ego, but about martial training and trying to give your opponent what he needs to learn, and maybe he needs to learn that his technique could be better. this also goes for attackers. In line with what George mentioned earlier, if your attacker is "jamming" in a way that is martially useless, their are lots of fun ways to point that out :)

[Eric Winters]

Ahmad,

Yes, that is what I am saying. You should not do that type of training 100% of the time but I would say at least 80% of the time you do taijitsu up until black belt and then cut it down to about 50%. It should be done with the attitude of strengthening your partner and yourself. There is generally no need to shut your partner down. If both of you are training with good intentions then you will eventually figure out how to do the technique with little effort.

Best,

Eric

[Eric Winters]

Ahmad,

Correction on my last post. What I mean is that uke should be resisting but not enough to jam the technique. Nage should be relaxed but putting a little energy and extension in the movement and of course, use the center and hips to move the uke. I hope this is clear.

Eric

[Lonin]

Uke should always be "resisting" to a sempai with neither ego nor a point to prove ( that the nage's showing some weakness or flaws). When training with kohai, uke should gauge the ability level of kohai as nage,give correct amount of resistance to help kohai along.
When doing demo or with sensei during class instructionals, uke should just flow along with maximum 30% resistance.
I personally like the moving through molasses quote. Thanks Eric It is as internal (yin) as aikido can be for me.

[David Yap]

Hello,

In training, Morihiro Saito would say that both uke and nage should feel like they are moving through molasses...

Eric,

Molasses - sticky, sticking stuff. Perhaps Saito shihan was explaining the principle of ki-no-musubi.

Happy training

David Y

[Lonin]

IMHO, just good alignment and grounding of uke's power(resistance/strength). Uke will feel he is either pushing against a wall or a ceiling if he continues in that direction. Reminicent of Shihan Endo's "Atari" maybe.

[Abasan]

Eric, I agree that Uke should give good intensity and resistance. That's not jamming, its just giving good energy to work with that nage must do it right in order to accomplish his goal.

[Eric Winters]

Eric,

Molasses - sticky, sticking stuff. Perhaps Saito shihan was explaining the principle of ki-no-musubi.

Happy training

David Y

David,

That is entirely possible, I don't pretend to know everything he was talking about. I wish I did.:) I will definitely think about that some more. I do think at least part of it was what I was explaining in my other post.

Best,

Eric

[David Yap]

Hi Eric,

Now, this is sticky. There is no chance I would be branded a jammer by him, not in this lifetime:D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylrcUJc7MIA

David Y

[NagaBaba]

The problem with only discovering where you might reverse a technique or apply an atemi "in your mind" is twofold. On the one hand, your mind may be wrong. I've been in techniques I thought I could reverse only to find out i couldn't. How do I know, because I tried and got shot down. On the flipside, if nage leaves gaping holes in his techniques but nobody walks through them, he never learns to close the holes.

Strong attacks and counters aren't necessarily about ego, but about martial training and trying to give your opponent what he needs to learn, and maybe he needs to learn that his technique could be better. this also goes for attackers. In line with what George mentioned earlier, if your attacker is "jamming" in a way that is martially useless, their are lots of fun ways to point that out :)
Very good post, JO!
Thanks a lot for giving me the opportunity to make my technique better! :)

IMHO most "jammers" work from either the position of ego and or the pre-knowledge of the technique and therefore the manner in which they can resist it.
I have rarely learned anything from a jammer other than about their personality/attitude.
When faced with a jammer I like to stand there an smile and then allow them to do the technique on me as I perform the role of Uke to help them to work on their flow and technique. As uke I am working on my flexibility and discovering places I might reverse the technique or apply a good atemi (in my mind).
Cheers
May be you didn't search hard enough what to learn? ;)
K.Chiba sensei wrote an article about learning from less advanced students, equal level and more advanced students. Very interesting reading, that applies directly to this topic.

[David Board]

Very good post, JO!
Thanks a lot for giving me the opportunity to make my technique better! :)

May be you didn't search hard enough what to learn? ;)
K.Chiba sensei wrote an article about learning from less advanced students, equal level and more advanced students. Very interesting reading, that applies directly to this topic.

It's a good read. (http://www.aikidoonline.com/articles/shihankai_articles/chiba/Chiba_Choosing_Partners.php)

[David Board]

As a beginner, I have encountered two types of Jammers. One has been useful in my learning process and the other has left me frustrated and IMHO wasted my time on the mat.

The first jams my technique. Letting me know I have failed. They then help me through the technique either by "leading ukemi" or verbal ques. This method is effective for me.

The second jams my technique and jams my technique and jams my technique and... Then we move on to the next technique or if I'm lucky Sensei comes over to point me in the right direction. In the end all I've learned is that I wasn't doing the technique correctly. I don't know why. I've spent several minutes of bang my head against a wall when I know there's a door around here somewhere.

As a beginner, I would ask that jammers consider where the person they jam is in their learning. If they are just learning what the technique is, don't just jam but lead them through or at the very least encourage them to find the solution (this has worked for me as well.)

I could see how when I'm not just trying to figure out what the technique is that getting jammed would be a great learning experience and even fun as two partners search for "weakness". But for now, when you jam and leave a beginner standing with no place to go, it is just frustrating. When the process moves beyond just what the technique is to how it works and on to perfecting, I can see jamming as being quite effective as a learning tool help or not.

[For me this "problem" has been rare, once or twice. And in most cases I believe from students that could find the mistake and jam but weren't sure how to guide me through a solution. Which in the end is probably fair enough.]

[NagaBaba]

As a beginner, I have encountered two types of Jammers. One has been useful in my learning process and the other has left me frustrated and IMHO wasted my time on the mat.

The first jams my technique. Letting me know I have failed. They then help me through the technique either by "leading ukemi" or verbal ques. This method is effective for me.

The second jams my technique and jams my technique and jams my technique and... Then we move on to the next technique or if I'm lucky Sensei comes over to point me in the right direction. In the end all I've learned is that I wasn't doing the technique correctly. I don't know why. I've spent several minutes of bang my head against a wall when I know there's a door around here somewhere.

As a beginner, I would ask that jammers consider where the person they jam is in their learning. If they are just learning what the technique is, don't just jam but lead them through or at the very least encourage them to find the solution (this has worked for me as well.)

I could see how when I'm not just trying to figure out what the technique is that getting jammed would be a great learning experience and even fun as two partners search for "weakness". But for now, when you jam and leave a beginner standing with no place to go, it is just frustrating. When the process moves beyond just what the technique is to how it works and on to perfecting, I can see jamming as being quite effective as a learning tool help or not.

[For me this "problem" has been rare, once or twice. And in most cases I believe from students that could find the mistake and jam but weren't sure how to guide me through a solution. Which in the end is probably fair enough.]

I believe one is coming to the dojo to be frustrated and NOT to be comfortable. Comfortable training is useless. With comfortable training, students become lazy and don’t develop a basic habit of stealing techniques from instructor (by variety of ways). Instead, they are only waiting passively for help like a sheep.

Later on, when time comes to develop the applications facing sophisticated attacks, they have not skills ready to find instant solution. And as in aikido you don’t have second chance, from martial point of view, the result is a ‘death’.

[Basia Halliop]

quote:"I believe one is coming to the dojo to be frustrated and NOT to be comfortable. "

Well, neither, in a way... personally, I'm coming to the dojo to learn. Often frustration is useful to that, for example in some of the ways you point out. But on the other hand, frustration isn't the goal in itself, it's an end towards a goal, even if the goal is as simple as learning to overcome frustration. If it's paired with learning or is caused by a level of difficulty that you can just overcome if you really stretch yourself and do the things you suggest, it can be good and can push you on and teach you. But it's also perfectly possible to be frustrated AND not learning anything.

Frustration doesn't AUTOMATICALLY lead to a person learning to overcome frustration and find things out for themselves. It has to be the right amount of frustration at the time - otherwise you won't necessarily learn those good traits, and may actually instead get what's called 'learned helplessness' (when people or animals learn to stop trying - this is fairly well studied so there are many examples with both animals and people).

It's the experience of _overcoming_ frustration that leads to those qualities of persistence and ingenuity - so to get the desired effect, the frustration needs to be at a level that you know the subject will overcome it. Persistence in the face of frustration can then also be taught by gradually increasing the level of frustration so that each time the person (or animal) takes slightly longer to get the response they are looking for, but each time they eventually get it and are rewarded for their persistence.

[David Board]

I believe one is coming to the dojo to be frustrated and NOT to be comfortable. Comfortable training is useless. With comfortable training, students become lazy and don't develop a basic habit of stealing techniques from instructor (by variety of ways). Instead, they are only waiting passively for help like a sheep.

Later on, when time comes to develop the applications facing sophisticated attacks, they have not skills ready to find instant solution. And as in aikido you don't have second chance, from martial point of view, the result is a ‘death'.
Fair enough, perhaps when I have more experience I will agree completely. For now this is my experience. When an Uke is willing to introduce me to technique I learn faster. Hopefully this won't lead me down the wrong path and set bad habits.

Since I 'm not that far from no Kyu and even now haven't seen that many techniques. I still remember watching Sensei introduce a technique. Thinking the hands go this way, the feet this way the hips that way and he's saying to focus on energy that way; damn how did the hands go, never mind time to give it a go. Getting as far as ich and thinking ni, right ni well that's two now were am I going. He went left and...damn what was it. Getting jammed at this stage of my training didn't seem to help. It left me not only frustrated but befuddled. Being told it's like ten kan remember, did help. Being jammed and not knowing why did not. The best sempai (from my beginners perspective) were the ones that didn't give me the technique but didn't leave me stranded.

I did encounter a few of those that left me wondering how to do the technique even though I "threw" them. I could tell I had flubbed the technique. These Uke left me just as frustrated and befuddled. (Do they have a label?) I could see that these Uke may be more "dangerous" in that if I was not aware could feel I had been a success. I threw them after all. But to be honest, I never felt a success.

Now I don't have your experience, but, when I did my first multiple attacker randori. I did get "jammed" or to be honest it was not a jam, more of two of three attackers had gotten me into a position that I couldn't easily escape from. It took me what felt like minutes but I think it was more microseconds, but I remembered what the sempai that had jammed me and remembered how he had me find my way through the jam and escaped. Next, I hope not to have to remember but to just do but for now at least I did something. If I hadn't been coached I'm not sure I could have found the way out of that pickle. But I had been given a way to think about what to do when I was stuck. That training helped.

I don't think that jamming is inappropriate. I can see where you are coming from. However, as a beginner, my experience leads me to believe that jamming a beginner who hasn't even gotten the basic form to be counter productive. Give me a chance to at least understand if I'm going left not right. Now don't let me go right and don't just give me the technique but don't leave me going left, being jammed, going left being jammed and not knowing if the reason I'm being unsuccessful is because I need to spiral my arm, move from my center or the hundred and one errors I've made to date and the million others I can imagine.

I don't want comfortable training. I don't mind being frustrated if I can learn something. I feel I'm getting closer to being able to learn from being silently jammed with no place to go. But for now leaving me jammed on basic techniques with no place to go and no background to fall back on just what I think I saw from Sensei and what I might of felt after taking a Ukemi from a student only a few ranks above me (didn't he get his footwork wrong? I'm not sure. I could of sworn it wasn't right) and in that process spending much of the time trying to remember the basic Ukemi (do I tuck the inside or outside leg? Bugger it. It's time to fall. Ouch, wrong choice). To jam me can be counterproductive if all it is is a jam. You know you did something wrong but what?! Take the next fall, see if you can learn.

[Abasan]

I believe one is coming to the dojo to be frustrated and NOT to be comfortable. Comfortable training is useless. With comfortable training, students become lazy and don't develop a basic habit of stealing techniques from instructor (by variety of ways). Instead, they are only waiting passively for help like a sheep.

Later on, when time comes to develop the applications facing sophisticated attacks, they have not skills ready to find instant solution. And as in aikido you don't have second chance, from martial point of view, the result is a ‘death'.

I think the problem here is that people of this era believe that as students of anything, we will become accomplished. Just like going to a university means we end up with a degree, we think that by going to dojo we automatically are going to 'get' aikido. By paying sensei, you expect him to transmit his knowledge to you.

You may 'get' aikido. Some people better than others. Some quicker than others. Frustration along the way is inevitable. Learning to overcome jammers is knowledge. Certainly it would really help to be able to fail now in the dojo, than outside when you're truly tested. But if you never learn... then part of it is your problem.

Sensei can guide us, but its our responsibility to learn.

[David Yap]

Hi all,

My joy in training - being jammed and challenged mentally to find the solution(s).

My frustrations - receiving charity falls and hence, embarassed with the impression that I can do "no touch" throws, the fact is I can't.

Happy training

David Y

[NagaBaba]

Hi Ahmad - it is very true.
David B. - you are right, not jamming for fresh beginners. However, where/when is line to start use a brain to learn? :)

But it's also perfectly possible to be frustrated AND not learning anything.
I disagree. You are learning all time - not necessary physical techniques, but also other very important aspects. Learning from failure is probably most important.

Frustration doesn't AUTOMATICALLY lead to a person learning to overcome frustration and find things out for themselves.
I agree. However it teaches you many important things about yourself. When combined with dangerous martial techniques the situation becomes very tense and creates excellent opportunity to develop spiritual aspects of aikido.


It's the experience of _overcoming_ frustration that leads to those qualities of persistence and ingenuity - so to get the desired effect, the frustration needs to be at a level that you know the subject will overcome it.
.......hmhm....may be.....I'm not so sure. What I experienced personally, to jump from lover level to next one, you have to be helpless, banging a wall with your head with no effects(with finding solutions). Only in such situation you can destroy all the forms/concepts that you learned so far and build new QUALITY of practice from scratch. It seems to be quite periodic process...

[phitruong]

sometimes jamming is good; sometimes, not. depends on situation and the person you work with. depends on goal. sometimes i want to test my ability, i would ask my partner to do his/her/its best to jam me. sometimes i would ask my partner to light up because i want to work on my aiki so as not to trigger a lot of my muscle tension. sometimes i would reach out with my fist or foot and lightly tap my partner to let him/her/it know that he/she/it is not in control.

then there are jams that are just hard to deal with (especially the raspberry type) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXKOsajNZY4 :D

[S Ellis]

This thread is fantastic. Great stuff.

[ruthmc]

David B. - you are right, not jamming for fresh beginners. However, where/when is line to start use a brain to learn? :)

That's actually quite a difficult one :D We are cautioned to use only appropriate resistance when working with a partner, but that can be really hard to gauge...

Somebody's rank or experience is a guide, but you also have to factor in their ability, which can change day-to-day, depending upon their health, fitness, and flexibility (both physical and mental).

Some folk have very low tolerance for frustration and won't respond well to being stopped, whatever your intentions. With these folk it's better to occasionally and briefly suggest improvements as you throw them, rather than saying or doing anything while they throw you!

Some folk are ok with being led through a technique, where you indicate to them the direction they need to go to take your balance while you are uke, verbally and / or physically. I'll tap their leg once and say "move this leg to your right, off the line of my attack" for example.

There's all sorts of variations. However, if you detect that your partner is becoming confused and / or frustrated, then stop what you are doing and call sensei over, or allow them to continue without your input while keeping yourself safe as uke.

In my experience you get the best results if you always explain why the person need make an adjustment - generally the answer is "because you will take my balance and throw me easily if you move in that direction" ;)

Liking this discussion very much :)

Ruth

[Abasan]

As a rule of thumb, anyone in my dojo can jam a shodan and above anytime they want. Keeps the ego in check. Frustrating for shodan yes, but you're there to learn. Not to throw people around. And for shodan, you're assumed to be a knowledgeable and dedicated beginner. One who knows he has much to learn and too little ability just yet.

Appropriate resistance is also vital for helping lower kyu to understand. If sensei jams you, there's really nothing you can do about it. Because his understanding of aiki is much more than yours. Same goes for you vs a beginner. Thus, provide resistance, but provide a way out. If they can't feel the way out, show it to them until they do and understand.

But David i think is talking about jamming between peers. And those peers who like to use strength to accomplish their goal. Thus David's jamming of those brute strength waza is more of self defence really. No one likes to be clothesline at the neck in what nage assumes to be correct iriminage or sayonage.

[David Board]

David B. - you are right, not jamming for fresh beginners. However, where/when is line to start use a brain to learn? :)



Well at the moment I can learn from being jammed on a subset of techniques. In fact, I have learned from being jammed and enjoyed the challenge. On others, well I'm getting there.

My sensei mentioned the other day that in the old style you should spend two years focusing on your Ukemi. So maybe two years :D .

You probably have a better idea than I do. What I know is that I've only learned some basic techniques. Others I've done only a few times. These techniques would be very challenging if you jammed me. However, I'm beginning to see/feel some of the basic ideas that seem to link the techniques. I think I could apply some of this to a new technique if I was jammed. So I hope soon.

That being said if things sped up I'd be in trouble. So for now I'm learning. So at this point in my training, jam me if you like but if I can't seem to find my way through be willing to point me in the right direction. If you don't well, so be it. I'll take what I can from the training and continue to search for a solution to the puzzle you have presented.

[jxa127]

As a rule of thumb, I tend to go through a technique once or twice with nage before I actively work to exploit holes. I also tend to not exploit holes with people who have less experience than I -- at least not at first.

Often, I say something before trying to jam a technique or reverse it. I'll say, "Hey, I feel something odd, let's do it again."

With some people, though, I simply try the reverse or atemi, or whatever. It's a great way to learn how to be a better attacker. It often happens that a hole I thought I could exploit turns out to either (a) leave me terribly open or (b) it's really not there.

[philippe willaume]

Thanks, everyone, for your replies.

I have branded as a "Jammer". I was wondering whether I fit the profile of one. So far, I am safe.

I tend to agree with Dan. Aiki is about seeking the path of least resistance (changing directions) rather than going against the resistance. I get irritated by nage who jerks or bounces me around instead of doing a free flowing technique on me. To avoid injury, the jerking and bouncing cause me to stiffen up and assume a defensive stance. Perhaps this is jamming as far as they are concerned.

Best training,

David Y
Hello, david
Nope rest assured that you are not a jammer, from what you say you are being unilaterally awkward and deserve every bit of the pounding you are getting and in my personal opinion you should probably get a good deal more.

You take the gloves off by putting some resistance without cheeking with your partner may be he trying to work on his movement or flow and the last thing he needs a numb-nuts resisting.

I am all for resistance training but there is a place and a time and it need to be bilateral and agreed upon from the onset.

You would laugh if I said that I am going full on all the time because I want to give my partner a good ukemi practice and if I was wondering why people call me a beast.
Well resisting without telling is exactly the same.

Phil

[Basia Halliop]

Personally, for me I find the times I learn most from someone exploiting the holes in my technique is when it's a technique I already have some basic understanding of, and the better I already know it, the more often the benefits of people doing countertechniques or occasionally messing up my technique do seem to appear. I already find it helpful far more often now as a 2nd kyu than I ever did as a 5th kyu - I can imagine if I ever get anywhere near your level, Stephane, it'll be yet another thing altogether. It's sort of like with learning other things -- you are better able to think critically or solve problems or develop theories the more you've learned the basic facts and principles that make up a body of knowledge. It all starts with the basics, before you can learn to think for yourself. But I guess that's in part what many of us seem to more or less agree on -- it's not necessarily always going to be helpful to someone who's just walked in on their first day, and it should be important for an advanced student, the question is where along the way between those two do you start, and how much? (and part of the different experiences in this thread may be partly because of the different stages people posting are at in their learning - some of the mentioned ones were mukyu, 5th kyu, 2nd kyu - 5th dan -- big range!)

One thing I tend to find really useful, and have from fairly early on in my training, is if someone's showed me the right way to do something, and I've practiced it several times carefully and got it OK, _then_ the next time I do it wrong, they exploit my mistake -- that really helps cement the idea, especially if they then give me another chance to do it right.

I guess in part it depends what the goals are in learning (technical principles, attitude, other), and what stage that individual is in learning -- sometimes learning 'just humility' can be useful in its own sake, I guess -- to change an attitude or change a person's motivation. I've just a couple of times met some training partners before (usually not the most advanced ones - most often higher ranked white belts) who seemed _too_ addicted to the idea and used it clumsily, especially when training with people far more beginner than them (whose techniques they could easily fully block no matter what the beginner attempted). Thankfully, that extreme is comparatively rare and I would think having an experience like that now and then has a different effect on a person then training primarily in that sort of situation.

[David Yap]

Hello, david
Nope rest assured that you are not a jammer, from what you say you are being unilaterally awkward and deserve every bit of the pounding you are getting and in my personal opinion you should probably get a good deal more.

You take the gloves off by putting some resistance without cheeking with your partner may be he trying to work on his movement or flow and the last thing he needs a numb-nuts resisting.

I am all for resistance training but there is a place and a time and it need to be bilateral and agreed upon from the onset.

You would laugh if I said that I am going full on all the time because I want to give my partner a good ukemi practice and if I was wondering why people call me a beast.
Well resisting without telling is exactly the same.

Phil

Hi Phil,

Based on what you wrote, when is it a good time to begin the practice of aiki in Aiki-do? I cherish every moment I spent on the mats and I trust my training partners but the trust is broken once they decide to hurt me after I have given in to their waza.

You will probably laugh your head off if you realise that the peers who branded me a jammer are a head taller than me and 25 or more kilo heavier than me and can out muscle me anytime they want to. One or two will not hesitate to put their 80-90 kilo bodyweight on my elbow in a nikkyu lock with less than 6 inches of space between the face and the mat. They will not hesitate to remove your hand from the wrist in sankyu. For shihonage or iriminage, if you are lucky, their follow through can be just 3 inches about the mat, if not, it is 3 inches below the mat. All these, they won't be telling you and so much for good ukeme practice. If you are beast, then I don't know what to call them. At the moment, they are just Pain, Painer and Painest. BTW, Painer and Painest are the Yoshinkan guys disguised as aikikai beginners.

Hope to see you on the mats.

David Y

[Lonin]

Hi Phil,

You will probably laugh your head off if you realise that the peers who branded me a jammer are a head taller than me and 25 or more kilo heavier than me and can out muscle me anytime they want to. One or two will not hesitate to put their 80-90 kilo bodyweight on my elbow in a nikkyu lock with less than 6 inches of space between the face and the mat. They will not hesitate to remove your hand from the wrist in sankyu. For shihonage or iriminage, if you are lucky, their follow through can be just 3 inches about the mat, if not, it is 3 inches below the mat. All these, they won't be telling you and so much for good ukeme practice. If you are beast, then I don't know what to call them. At the moment, they are just Pain, Painer and Painest. BTW, Painer and Painest are the Yoshinkan guys disguised as aikikai beginners.

David Y
David,
It may well be a clash of styles if your yoshinkan peers are branding you a jammer. BTW do these yoshinkan people really say you jam them?....strange! cos up here it is usually the other way around. Again, it is a clash of styles and development. Yoshinkan aikido builds stability first and fluidity in movement much later (IMHO). With this, intermediate yoshinkan is characterised by huge doses of resistance training, but usually this type of training is cherished (by the yoshiners) and not a matter to argue over. If the akikaiers complain....then it makes a bit more sense.
Moreover the P,Pner & Pnest cannot be "Yoshinkan" as nikajo is mostly done with hands extended 'kamae' so not very likely bodyweight can be applied to uke's elbow. Even from "kata mochi" both shite's hands are on uke's wrists.
Similarly for iriminage, yoshiners have been called robots/zombies here with the final zanshin(stance) with both arms and back leg extended. Definitely finishing more than three inches off the matt for normal practioners and more still if they are 25kgs heavier and half a head taller than you.
Yoshinkan sangkajo is mostly a single handed "pistol grip" lock with thumb and forefinger extended (opened) and usually less "tearing" than the double handed "wringing" or the lower hand twist of uke's fingers towards the armpits. The sangkajo nage is led by uprooting with less of the whipping down.
Shihonage, I agree as it is the yoshinkan practice of taking it all the way down to the mat with one final slide of four/five feet. Not vertically down though, so ukemi is still very "do"able.
You best check cos maybe your peers are akikai BEASTS putting on yoshinkan airs to disguise themselves as akikai beginers.
Happy training OSU!

[David Yap]

...You best check cos maybe your peers are akikai BEASTS putting on yoshinkan airs to disguise themselves as akikai beginers.
Happy training OSU!

Hi Loh,

Thanks for the insight of Yoshinkan practice. I have trained with many Yoshinkan with good flowing techniques. Joe Thambu shihan's waza is just as mystical as some of our Aikikai shihan. The aikido clinic conducted by Inoue hanshi and Ando shihan in PD was great and I am looking forward to the next one. During the clinic, Ando shihan emphasized that "bumping" or "jecking" should be avoided in the techniques. But Painer, who is 101% Yoshinkan and -1% aikikai, trains otherwise.

If you have attended the clinic, I am sure that you have met Painer and Painest.

BTW, the beastly techniques are not confined to Painer and Painest. They are also the hallmarks of some of my aikikai peers. Let's keep to the topic of jamming.

David

[jonreading]

To me, jamming is the placement of an obstacle to prevent the execution of technique. I hear lots of judo players and MM artists talk about using their bodies to restrict their opponent's movement or restrict their opponent's ability to escape a technique, especially in dynamic movements. So it this sense of the definition, jamming is only a component of a tactic...what do you after you successfully jam your opponent? Jamming has its place as an entry into other dynamic movement (which I will not call kaishi waza...yet.)

I believe often aikido people [ab]use jamming because they do not know a logical conclusion to successfully jamming their partner. Once we stop our partner, we do not know what next to do so we end up hunkering down satisfied in our obstenance. Our stunned partner ends up with no energy; the kinetic energy was stopped and we are not providing any potential energy. The one-technique training style of aikido (kihon waza and sometime nagare waza) sometimes leaves newer students vulnerable to this type of exchange because they do not regularly train in a continuing format (henka waza) and are not able to spontaneously move into another technique.

In that measure, what are you learning by jamming your partner? Are you countering with a technique of your own? What is your partner learning? Is your partnering learning how to avoid being jammed? There is great training derived from these questions, but often not for beginning students who are trying to learn the basic movement mechanics. Nor for more advanced students to whom you cannot successfully jam on multiple occassions to create a consistent learning environment.

In short, jamming is not a problem as long as you and your partner have similar expectations and you can create a consistent learning environment to gain from the experience. Most of us in normal training cannot accomplish these elements and therefore we end up frustrated with the experience outcome (which neither meets our expectations nor can be reproduced for further evaluation).

[David Yap]

Good post, Jon.

[philippe willaume]

Hi Phil,

Based on what you wrote, when is it a good time to begin the practice of aiki in Aiki-do? I cherish every moment I spent on the mats and I trust my training partners but the trust is broken once they decide to hurt me after I have given in to their waza.

You will probably laugh your head off if you realise that the peers who branded me a jammer are a head taller than me and 25 or more kilo heavier than me and can out muscle me anytime they want to. One or two will not hesitate to put their 80-90 kilo bodyweight on my elbow in a nikkyu lock with less than 6 inches of space between the face and the mat. They will not hesitate to remove your hand from the wrist in sankyu. For shihonage or iriminage, if you are lucky, their follow through can be just 3 inches about the mat, if not, it is 3 inches below the mat. All these, they won't be telling you and so much for good ukeme practice. If you are beast, then I don't know what to call them. At the moment, they are just Pain, Painer and Painest. BTW, Painer and Painest are the Yoshinkan guys disguised as aikikai beginners.

Hope to see you on the mats.

David Y
hello david
Sure and and in the quiet words from brick-top if I bugger off to tibet, there will be a bunch of nutters, from Pakhurst, in Yeti suits waiting for me up everest with meat cleavers to chop me chubby legs off.

is not obvious to you that the thrust is boken when you resit what they are trying to do without their concent or at least telling then.
you know harmony is really working from the same hymn sheet.

You make your tori look and feel shiet and hence he buries you into the mat. Fair play to them.

Phil

[David Yap]

...
You make your tori look and feel shiet and hence he buries you into the mat. Fair play to them.Phil

Hi Phil,

So you saying that it is an ego issue and their action is justifiable. Which means I am dead meat whether I resist or not. Now I understand why some guys are only good at dishing but are not good/reluctant to be at the receiving end.

David Y

PS, May I know how long you have playing or training?

[David Yap]

Hi Phil,

This is a continuation of post#58. Don't get me wrong, I am not implying that all my peers habitually dish out brute techniques. Some of us have diverse MA background and we practice aikido under different teachers at different dojo. Most time, I observe, the ones without other MA experience are the most brutish. Some have the arrogant perception of martial integrity but yet one can read their intentions miles away.

David Y

[Lonin]

Hi Loh,
I have trained with many Yoshinkan with good flowing techniques. Joe Thambu shihan's waza is just as mystical as some of our Aikikai shihan. The aikido clinic conducted by Inoue hanshi and Ando shihan in PD Ando shihan emphasized that "bumping" or "jecking" should be avoided in the techniques. But Painer, who is 101% Yoshinkan and -1% aikikai, trains otherwise.
Let's keep to the topic of jamming.

David

It's Chida, and he is up there ( with shihan Joe Thambu and hanshi Inoue) on another plane. Good for you for your many training inferences, but sadly most of us can only dream......
so now you only jam bigger arrogant nage brutes without other MA experiences who telegragphs their intentions......hmm interesting

[AsimHanif]

Not reading through the whole thread forgive me if I'm being redundant.
To me, 'jamming' is when uke intentionally gives a different energy than is called for to practice the principle being studied at the time.
My solution is to take what they give me.

[ruthmc]

Hi again,

A few classes down the line from the start of this thread, I've been subconsciously considering this 'jamming' thing in my own practise..

I think some folk consider that I may be jamming them when they:

a) Initially take my balance then put me back onto a strong posture through thier next movements
b) Try to move me in a direction where I am already in a strong posture (ie my skeleton and muscles are in good alignment, and moving me in that direction is going to be hard work, even through I'm not all that big or strong)
c) Simply don't take my balance at all and leave me standing upright on my feet (again in good posture)

Some tori appreciate my honesty, some don't understand why 'it's not working' although I do always explain eg 'You didn't take my balance, try to enter or turn further' or 'You are going through my strongest line, this is where I am weak, try moving that way'.

I could just fall over for them (taking my own balance) which I will do with complete novices who are only managing an approximation of the technique because it's their second class, ever ;) but do not see the value to tori if I do so for somebody who has been training for 6 months or more..

At this stage in my development, if uke's balance isn't broken, it isn't Aikido :)

Ruth

[David Yap]

It's Chida, and he is up there ( with shihan Joe Thambu and hanshi Inoue) on another plane. Good for you for your many training inferences, but sadly most of us can only dream......
so now you only jam bigger arrogant nage brutes without other MA experiences who telegragphs their intentions......hmm interesting

Loh,

Yes, Chida it was. Must be dementia from getting all bumps on head. Hey, for the umpteen time, I am no jammer. When a nage changes his role from defending to attacking then my role as an uke become a nage.

Regards

David Y

[David Yap]

...At this stage in my development, if uke's balance isn't broken, it isn't Aikido :)

Precisely, Ruth.