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Andrew Macdonald
02-11-2010, 09:31 PM
this is kinda jumping off from the 'aikido vs Kali' thread, but it didn;t want to hijack that thread,

so my new question is.....

what style are you most worried about exchanging with.

before you answer....

I know O'sensei took on all comers, however I am talking about the people on this board

every art has its own strengths and weaknesses, it is not a bad thing to say that you would find it diffiuclt to handle something, self knowledge is a valuble thing

and i'll throw myself open to start off :)

i guess for myself i am most worried about the short range striking arts, if they would get in on me it would really test my body movement, also because they are short range they tend to work on a very small circle of movement which i think would make it more difficult for me to enter

long range striking arts i am more comfortable (although I still bring my best game to the table) as I have more experience in them and it seems (at my level anyway) that alot of the attack we use in aikido are long range

I am interested to hear any other views opinions or experiences

Boris Spassky
02-11-2010, 10:34 PM
Hmm..What do you consider long range and short range?

I have only my 2nd blue belt in Aikido but nearly 20 years in Kempo. I train in Aikido because I enjoy the beauty, harmony, and non confrontational approach. It would seem difficult to use Aikido effectively against my Kempo peers, as well as MMA.

How does Aikido deal with a flurry of strikes? You need not enter, I will enter for you-

Our school offers Kempo, Aikido, Tai-Chi, etc. and when people come in I ask them what their goal is in the martial arts- I then tell them that in my opinion Aikido is the ultimate in martial arts due to its non aggressive and non competitive nature, but in order to learn to protect oneself in a relatively short period of time, take Kempo or another striking art.

James

Janet Rosen
02-12-2010, 12:00 AM
thermonuclear weapons.
yep.
definitely.

Abasan
02-12-2010, 01:23 AM
Saying Aikido vs ... is very limiting. Its more appropriate to say Me vs ... because in the end its you on the line. One day you may win and the next you lose. Look at boxing vs boxing. Or UFC vs UFC. The competitor wins because he is prepared, he has the skills and the training and because either the opponent has something less or because of luck.

Aikido is like a sword. And the ... could be a knife, a gun or a nuclear missile. None of the above works without you to pull the trigger so to speak.

But here's the thing... I personally think Aikido is enough. But the funny thing is, learning other arts was what made me understand that. I had to see from different perspectives that Aikido has a lot of depth 'martially'. But getting 'aiki' is a totally different ball game. That will blow your mind.

What am I afraid off to encounter now at this present time? Gangs... when I have my kids with me.

L. Camejo
02-12-2010, 02:36 AM
thermonuclear weapons.
yep.
definitely.
I'm with Janet - what she said.. and sniper-jutsu :)

dalen7
02-12-2010, 04:39 AM
I know O'sensei took on all comers, however I am talking about the people on this board

I am interested to hear any other views opinions or experiences

The answer is in your statement...
... go to a competitive sport and try it out. ;)

I have and came away with conformation of what I had already thought was the case.

The main problem is the concept of "Aikido verses" anything.

Aikido is part of a body of knowledge and does not stand on its own when it comes to the discussion of pitting it against something.

Its like your taking an arm [aikido] off of the body [martial arts] and trying to make it into something its not. This is not your fault but a natural progression of what happens when your not able to test theory out in a live environment.

I know Im not the only person who has cross-trained, and not the only person who has tried their Aikido out in cross-training. [Though I have made it a primary focus to see where it stands].

You get someone just doing kicks... they will be in for a world of hurt - like wise someone who only trains in something of a variant range, etc.

MMA points well to this, though its not all clearly spelled out.

Its like the whole Jean Claude vs. Seagall bit years back.
Whoever was in better shape, more flexible, quick, would win a fight. You cannot undervalue physical conditioning by any means.

The whole concept of not using strength, I feel, is very misunderstood. Yes there are different approaches to how your defense can be applied, but its not as some figure where its magic fingers touching you, regardless of the shape your in, and the person flying.

If it is, then I want that person to train with me live and show me.
I have turned into the worlds formost doubting Thomas - yet at the same time, I am one of the most open minded people... just a time and place for everything, and a means and a method. Wanting something to be true wont work, but finding out how to make it true will. ;)

So, instead of making it Aikido vs. something, try to add to the range you train in. [Work your kicks and realize their limitations, work your strikes and realize their limitiations... are you using knees and elbows, etc.]

There are so many scenarios its crazy, but in reality the answer to them is quite straight forward. :)

Peace

dAlen

dalen7
02-12-2010, 04:46 AM
Our school offers Kempo, Aikido, Tai-Chi, etc. and when people come in I ask them what their goal is in the martial arts- I then tell them that in my opinion Aikido is the ultimate in martial arts due to its non aggressive and non competitive nature, but in order to learn to protect oneself in a relatively short period of time, take Kempo or another striking art.

James

I remember when I lived stateside I went to a kungfu dojo and asked about its effectiveness against multiple attackers - I was actually told to go to a competing wing chun dojo, who happened to train in BJJ, Kali, Thai Boxing, etc., as it was more practical and effective and that his style was more for 'show'.

This honesty actually was surprising and welcomed at the time - I remember every dojo saying their art had what it took, and here was a guy that basically admitted his tiger styles, etc. were more for show.

I believe he thought wing chun was more effective, but my take on it now is that the fact they cross-train is what makes the wing chun more effective.

The fact is if you know something and someone else doesnt... you can basically wipe the floor with them regardless of what art you use. [people are dazed as they are not used to any fighting scenario.]

Anyway...

Peace

dAlen

SeiserL
02-12-2010, 06:09 AM
IMHO, its the person not the style, but give me a well seasoned street fighter or combat veteran.

Mark Peckett
02-12-2010, 06:56 AM
Wmd!

lbb
02-12-2010, 08:10 AM
I'm with Janet - what she said.. and sniper-jutsu :)

Dude. Superman. Superman beats nuclear weapons and snipers both, with one hand tied behind his manly-muscle back!

(could Bruce Lee beat up Steven Seagal?)

Dazzler
02-12-2010, 08:17 AM
IMHO, its the person not the style, but give me a well seasoned street fighter or combat veteran.
I've put one in the post...not sure of your seasoning preference so hope English mustard is ok.

Hope it agrees with you...I certainly do.

Regards

D

Dewey
02-12-2010, 01:30 PM
thermonuclear weapons.
yep.
definitely.

IED's...most definitely. Buddies who did time in Iraq and Afghanistan tell me about how they lived in constant fear of them while on patrol.

Dude. Superman. Superman beats nuclear weapons and snipers both, with one hand tied behind his manly-muscle back!

(could Bruce Lee beat up Steven Seagal?)

No way. Batman wins every time. Brains always beats brawn.
------------------------------------------

Seriously, though. If one's understanding of Aiki is how it would fare in a "vs." situation...then methinks they misunderestimated the meaning of Aiki. Aikido is more than "just" a set of techniques & counter-techniques.

Phil Van Treese
02-12-2010, 02:32 PM
I read the question but whit I feel is the "which is the better style" nonsense. I have been attacked by street fighters, other "experts"in the M.A. etc, etc. I used my training in judo, aikido and common sense to overcome the experts. Regardless of what you know, how you train will be your companion on the street if needed.

Ketsan
02-12-2010, 05:48 PM
Me, I'm my own worst enemy. :D

Keith Larman
02-12-2010, 06:08 PM
Dude. Superman. Superman beats nuclear weapons and snipers both, with one hand tied behind his manly-muscle back!

(could Bruce Lee beat up Steven Seagal?)

Pfffft. Amateurs. I nominate my wife on a particularly bad day for her at work. I decided to help out by boiling some eggs. I put them on then promptly forgot about them and went out to my workshop to get some stuff done. On "high" on the stovetop.

She comes home to exploding, burning eggs. Oh, yes. Hardened, burning, napalm like egg yolk stuck to the ceiling and covering the kitchen. Good lord I thought she was going to wipe out half a continent just with her female anger vision power... I still whimper when I think of that day...

The really sad part was this is something I had done before...

Sigh...

Janet Rosen
02-12-2010, 06:23 PM
Pfffft. Amateurs. I nominate my wife on a particularly bad day for her at work. I decided to help out by boiling some eggs. I put them on then promptly forgot about them and went out to my workshop to get some stuff done. On "high" on the stovetop.

Keith, take a tip from a middle aged budobabe: this is why there are kitchen timers!!!! I'd let my tea steep all day without setting it, much less try to cook anything....

bakersan960
02-12-2010, 06:26 PM
IMHO, its the person not the style, but give me a well seasoned street fighter or combat veteran.

You my friend are right! IT is the person that knows common sense street fighting, cut from a certain cloth that is a very tough opponent! Iv'e worked out with many high ranking black belts that could not hold thier own in the street! Take one of these kinds of people and train them for 5 years and you can have avery SMART non fighter!

Alan_Lamb
02-13-2010, 12:17 PM
I don't fear the martial art, I fear the martial artist. It doesn't really matter is what i'm saying. You might get into a tussle with a karateka, one kote gaeshi later, and the guy is no threat. Few months later you might fight another guy, same style and rank, and get your ass stomped. You just have to wait and see really.
You never know how long the fight will be, you always have to be ready- Seagal

Shannon Frye
02-13-2010, 02:13 PM
Not to hijack the thread, but does any train in a style of aikido that actually trains in what to do AFTER the ukemi ?
(Your ukemi , not ukes). Any styles of aikido teach groundwork?

Kevin Leavitt
02-13-2010, 04:29 PM
I have taught ground work to Aikidoka. I have run classes on what to do after ukemi...or better yet...ukemi is not about falling down, but about moving to a better postion.

Chuck Clark
02-13-2010, 06:58 PM
What a concept!

Andrew Macdonald
02-14-2010, 12:05 PM
hmmm seems i used the wrong title for my post,

The question wasn't about style vs style but about recognizing areas where yourself and/or aikido and/or training can be filled out

I have experience in other Martial arts and hold ranks and dan grades in them, I always find it interesting to compare the tactics and specialitiesof the styles I do

yes it is of course about the person ultimately but if i was against a boxer i would keep him back with kicks, if i were against a TKD person i would close in on them

I know that these are broad generalizations but sometimes for the sake of argument these have to made

I am aware that many people cross train and I am one of them, I really love it, butthrough the corss trainingthese questions come up

I was playing around with my friends one night and did a irimi nage on them, not a full one but as much as safety would allow. later that evening a boxer friend of mine was chatting to me about it and admitted he wasn't sure how he would deal with it, not because he wasn't a god fighter but because no one ha done it to him, so we went away and trained on it

this is just one of many such stories which lead to the question i asked

I really have to work on my titles :)

lbb
02-14-2010, 01:43 PM
The question wasn't about style vs style but about recognizing areas where yourself and/or aikido and/or training can be filled out

I have experience in other Martial arts and hold ranks and dan grades in them, I always find it interesting to compare the tactics and specialitiesof the styles I do

Well, they're different paths up the same mountain, or can be. I know that's a dreadful cliche, but one of my great loves (besides martial arts) is hiking, and I will often resort to hiking analogies if I'm not carefully restrained :D I live not far from Mount Greylock in Massachusetts, a popular peak that is summited by the Appalachian Trail, and that has many other approaches as well. I've taken a lot of these different approaches, at different times of year, in different weather -- each time it's a different experience, and each time it has elements in common with my other climbs to the top. The more ways I climb, the more I appreciate them all.

And there, unfortunately, the analogy breaks down, because a climb to the top of Greylock is a dayhike, while a climb to the top of the martial arts "peak" is the work of a lifetime. To get that sense of deeper appreciation for each path, you have to at least get a fair distance up the mountain, and that is the work of years. Anyone can do a google search and compile a list of distinctive tactics and techniques in different styles, any newbie who's been studying a month or two can probably rattle off a standard blurb about what their style is good at...but understanding these characteristics in context is a different matter.

As far as "filling out" your skillset, I think that this is a desirable outcome, but as a goal it's got some drawbacks. Taking up a new style with a mercenary attitude like, "I'm going to study this to improve my striking skills, and thus improve my atemi for aikido", it seems to me, has a good chance of backfiring. IME, it's when you drop the expectations, the shopping list, the "what are you gonna do for ME" attitude, that a style has a chance to seep into you and really teach you something.

Johann Baptista
02-14-2010, 07:58 PM
I think this thread opens up a lot of possibilities. I would probably be with the thread starter in worrying about short range fighting arts, especially those that hit fast like Kra Magov (Israeli Fighting Forces), and leave even faster so that you can't catch them. Some Aikido techniques would work, but some wouldn't. The problem with these arts though is that when you punch and retrieve your punch really fast, you do less damage then when you commit to your punch.

I would still like to say, I don't believe in a collection of techniques called Aikido. Aikido to me, is any movement done with mindfulness and harmonious intention. O'Sensei said that once you train enough to react spontaneously, anything can become Aikido. Kempo, jujitsu, Judo, these are all labels. What if a Kempo master were to invent a new move and call it a Kempo move? What if an Aikido Sensei were in a real fight and found an opportunity to trip the assailant by letting him over-commit and then swiping his feet from below him with his legs? Would that be Aikido?

Technically, every move we do is a new move, because you can never do something exactly the same twice. Aikido is always new. So again, which kind of art would your Aikido be difficult against?

- Johann

Shannon Frye
02-14-2010, 08:24 PM
... Aikido is always new. So again, which kind of art would your Aikido be difficult against?

- Johann

I really like the way you phrased that. :)

Kevin Leavitt
02-14-2010, 09:26 PM
Since my aikido practice is geared specifically toward learning fundamental principles of martial movement, I can't really answer that question.

Once I figured out what the purpose and importance of studying this martial methodology....I became okay with it, and no longer concerned with how it would do in a fight.

My Aikido training has it's place in my martial studies. Fighting application? well that is an entirely different subject for me.

I am trying to incorporate the fundamentals and principles that I am learning as I try and reprogram my body and mind to respond in a more efficient way....however, fighting...once we go there.....there is so, so many things that come into the equation, aikido practice is just one part of the whole for me...it is not a separate and distinct method for fighitng...that just seems so illogical to me these days that I can't even discuss it.

If you want to talk ranges of combat, I think you can divide things up into several, three basic. Close, Middle, and Far.

Close being empty hand/grappling range. Middle being short weapons, sticks, blunt objects, and knives, striking. Long being longer than arms length weapons, projectiles, swords.

Each of these ranges brings a somewhat different set of skills/strategies/tactics that are necessary.