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eyesman14
02-08-2010, 06:03 PM
I was just wondering how you prevent somebody from rolling out of the ikkyo pin?

Thanks

GMaroda
02-08-2010, 07:37 PM
Short answer: pin them correctly.

LOLcat answer: ur doin it wrong!

Not terribly long answer: make sure the shoulder is locked down.

Edit: Add "I think" to all answers.

eyesman14
02-08-2010, 08:22 PM
Thanks! I may be doing it wrong, but i found that some guys with juijitsu backgrounds can roll out of it.

JW
02-08-2010, 08:55 PM
When they roll out of it, are they hurting you or taking your balance or something at the same time? I feel like the uke is pretty much at the mercy of nage at the time of the ikkyo pin. If the uke finds he has one option, isn't it true that the nage has even more options? (He is on top, with balance/stability)

My guess is there is an aiki/internal reason that uke should not be able to move. But in the absence of that, isn't the above still true?
--JW

eyesman14
02-09-2010, 12:40 AM
They aren't hurting themselves but I think I found my problem which was that I wasn't stabilizing the shoulder enough that they can't lift themselves up to roll out.

Thanks for the info guys!

dalen7
02-09-2010, 02:09 AM
The way it typically happens is they are only trying to control my arm, and I can roll - also they tend to not even really be controlling my arm. [hard to describe.]

When I do it Im controlling and pinning the arm as well as controlling their body with my leg closest to them and keeping their arm low, lower, etc.

Not sure how to describe it better, but definitely know what your talking about - another thing is timing... that and making sure with each of your movements you have uke off-balanced and/or controlled.

Check it out, at what point are they rolling... stop it, analyze it, and see what you can do to gain control - if there is an open window where your not controlling uke, then the technique wont work. ;)

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
When I roll out I typically go for a kotegaeshi pin on them... its fun. :)
In practicality, if this included striking I would have to modify the roll as Im sure I would get kneed in the head. :D

Fred Little
02-09-2010, 10:15 AM
Momentarily setting aside the discussions of whether or not the contemporary "standard ikkyo pin" is a universally functional pin, I would say that there are three simple critical elements that contribute:

1. The shoulder itself must be pinned to the mat. Any gap between the shoulder and the mat can be easily exploited by a moderately resistant uke.

2. Nage's proximal knee should be snug against uke's floating ribs.

3. If one draws a straight line perpendicular to the line of uke's body at the crown of the head, nage's distal knee should be at or above that line, and uke's hand should be above that line.

Cautionary notes: If uke is either "monkey-strong" or has exceptional joint mobility, the above may be moot. If uke is "tight," and has low joint mobility, the knee may need to be drift lower to accommodate the reduced range of motion, in which case one takes the arm up to a position in which the musculature is taut, and judiciously shifts the knee lower to complete the full mat pin.

Hope this helps,

FL

ChrisHein
02-09-2010, 10:59 AM
The same way you stop them from rolling out of any other classic Japanese pin, hold a weapon over them threatening them. If they roll out hit/cut them with said weapon.

Ever notice how Ueshiba holds a bladed hand over the person he's pinning. Aikido (like many classical jujutsu) pins sacrifice some control for mobility.

For example side mount (Bjj) is a very good secure pin, however it's hard to get out of if the guy on bottom wants to hold you there (while his buddy runs you through). However the Ikkyo pin allows quick escape (to avoid his buddy running you through) but is not super secure. We make up for this lack of control by holding a weapon over the person we are pinning.

C. David Henderson
02-09-2010, 11:06 AM
I wonder whether as nage you are getting behind in your timing during ikkyo, and allowing slack to develop in uke's arm -- giving them back their center.

In addition to the other advice and information you're receiving, you might also try observing whether there is a pattern developing before your partner begins to escape the pin.

edshockley
02-09-2010, 12:04 PM
Atemi is "krazy glue."

NagaBaba
02-09-2010, 03:07 PM
The same way you stop them from rolling out of any other classic Japanese pin, hold a weapon over them threatening them. If they roll out hit/cut them with said weapon.

Ever notice how Ueshiba holds a bladed hand over the person he's pinning. Aikido (like many classical jujutsu) pins sacrifice some control for mobility.

For example side mount (Bjj) is a very good secure pin, however it's hard to get out of if the guy on bottom wants to hold you there (while his buddy runs you through). However the Ikkyo pin allows quick escape (to avoid his buddy running you through) but is not super secure. We make up for this lack of control by holding a weapon over the person we are pinning.
This is most important key to understand ikkyo pin what Chris is saing. This pin was not designed to pin somebody during 1 minute or make him surrender. It served to hold attacker only for the time of use defenders own weapon to finish attacker. In the same time it preserves defender mobility and freedom of reaction to harmonise with environment.

That is why it is very easy to roll out of ikkyo pin.

Having said that, it is very important to work hard to improve the efficiency of ikkyo pin to make roll out more and more difficult.

George S. Ledyard
02-10-2010, 09:35 AM
This is most important key to understand ikkyo pin what Chris is saing. This pin was not designed to pin somebody during 1 minute or make him surrender. It served to hold attacker only for the time of use defenders own weapon to finish attacker. In the same time it preserves defender mobility and freedom of reaction to harmonise with environment.

That is why it is very easy to roll out of ikkyo pin.

Having said that, it is very important to work hard to improve the efficiency of ikkyo pin to make roll out more and more difficult.
Yes!

dps
02-10-2010, 12:30 PM
If the Ikkyo is being done on uke's right arm, take your left knee and place it on top of the shoulder joint instead of in the arm pit.

David

danj
02-10-2010, 08:08 PM
Agree its a temporary measure and love the knee on the shoulder blade/ neck as do security personal who don't carry swords for the coup de grais

Also thinking of pinning the opposite shoulder to the ground earlier on in the technique helped me a lot by having ukes centre prior to starting the pin .

For more fun and students good for messing around with what-ifs dropping the inside elbow onto ukes rising back works well and if uke sends other limbs your way you can capture them by a circular sweep of your inside arm (the one holding the elbow) for some nice variants and restraint n' removal, and WWF ;) style moves.

dan

mickeygelum
02-10-2010, 09:26 PM
Ask Sandoval Sensei, after all, it is he who leads your dojo.

I will give you this, if they are rolling out of the pin, you are not executing the pin correctly.

Train well,

Mickey

eyesman14
02-11-2010, 12:31 AM
Ask Sandoval Sensei, after all, it is he who leads your dojo.

I will give you this, if they are rolling out of the pin, you are not executing the pin correctly.

Train well,

Mickey

Thanks, It was a combination of me not doing the pin correctly( the more obvious reason) and my partner having very good flexibility.

Walter Martindale
02-11-2010, 05:10 AM
One shihan at seminars often said "mukashi" (in the past) we used to do this... (press the elbow down and lift up the hand)
Kinda finishes off the guy's arm, but since we need people with whom to train, we merely pin, and unless you're really good at the pin, people can roll out.
Well, flexible people, I'm fat, stiff, and old, and can't roll out of ikkyo.
W

Amir Krause
02-11-2010, 07:30 AM
The same way you stop them from rolling out of any other classic Japanese pin, hold a weapon over them threatening them. If they roll out hit/cut them with said weapon.

Ever notice how Ueshiba holds a bladed hand over the person he's pinning. Aikido (like many classical jujutsu) pins sacrifice some control for mobility.

For example side mount (Bjj) is a very good secure pin, however it's hard to get out of if the guy on bottom wants to hold you there (while his buddy runs you through). However the Ikkyo pin allows quick escape (to avoid his buddy running you through) but is not super secure. We make up for this lack of control by holding a weapon over the person we are pinning.

This is most important key to understand ikkyo pin what Chris is saing. This pin was not designed to pin somebody during 1 minute or make him surrender. It served to hold attacker only for the time of use defenders own weapon to finish attacker. In the same time it preserves defender mobility and freedom of reaction to harmonise with environment.

That is why it is very easy to roll out of ikkyo pin.

Having said that, it is very important to work hard to improve the efficiency of ikkyo pin to make roll out more and more difficult.

Yes!

Wanted to post the same thing.

A trained person can get out of most of the Aikido pins, but if the pin is done correctly, it takes too long to get out of, assuming the time is used by Tori to draw his own weapon and cuts.

Amir

mickeygelum
02-11-2010, 09:01 AM
A trained person can get out of most of the Aikido pins, but if the pin is done correctly, it takes too long to get out of, assuming the time is used by Tori to draw his own weapon and cuts.



Sorry, but this not true, as most "pins" are breaks, dislocations and destructions.

It is the contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap" that makes them ineffective.

Train well,

Mickey

David Board
02-11-2010, 09:47 AM
First I apologize for cross posting but wasn't sure how to insure a comments from both lines of discussion without posting in both threads. If this steps on toes, my apologizes...

Anyway, in this thread there are those that seem to be arguing that aikido is not a complete open hand system.

In the Aiki-Ken vs reality thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16337
Some folks seem to be arguing that aikido is not a complete (weapons systems (forgive the short-hand, I do understand that this is not completely correct).

As a beginner I was hoping that someone would mind relating these two lines of thoughts. I was going to ask if you could resolve the conflict between these two thoughts but I don't see a conflict. It is more that as a beginner I find the two lines of thought to not completely meet. I'm hoping that those with more experience can help me make the connection better (I can do it but it involves Duct Tape, bailing wire and piece of chewing gum).

Amir Krause
02-11-2010, 09:53 AM
Sorry, but this not true, as most "pins" are breaks, dislocations and destructions.

It is the contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap" that makes them ineffective.

Train well,

Mickey

You can turn many techniques into a break, that is true. Few others of my dojo even did that in cases of need.

But then, it would not be a pin, it would be a breaking. Further, the way I am taught in most cases, the break should be performed at the first contact, long before the attacker even touches the ground.

Train well
Amir

mickeygelum
02-11-2010, 10:18 AM
...the break should be performed at the first contact, long before the attacker even touches the ground.


I concur.

Just my opinion, there is no reason to pin.

Train well,

Mickey

Amir Krause
02-11-2010, 10:28 AM
Just my opinion, there is no reason to pin.

Train well,

Mickey

I disagree, it is better to have more options then less. And in current society, in most situations, if you can end the conflict by pinning and immobilizing a person without creating harm, you are better off. Of course, the latter is much more dificult to achieve.

Given this, it is important to realize that the way we pin in aikido, can NOT assure long term immobilizing of the attacker. Rather, it would be great for short term, until something else is used (e.g. handcuffs if you are a policemen)

Amir

ChrisHein
02-11-2010, 11:09 AM
in this thread there are those that seem to be arguing that aikido is not a complete open hand system.

In the Aiki-Ken vs reality thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16337
Some folks seem to be arguing that aikido is not a complete (weapons systems (forgive the short-hand, I do understand that this is not completely correct).

Well both threads are correct, Aikido is not a complete weapons system, and it is also not a complete empty handed system.

I think most all of us would agree on these points, after that you are asking for different people's opinions.

All martial arts systems are specialized. It has to be this way because the field of martial arts is just too big. Could you imagine a system where you learn to spear fight, swim in armor, ride a horse, fly a helicopter, wrestle, arrange troops on the battle field, disarm nuclear weapons, drive a sub etc etc? It might sound silly when I put all of these things together, but it's all a matter of perspective. To the modern soldier flying a helicopter sounds pretty useful, but spear fighting useless. Just the opposite for a historian, spear fighting is useful in his studies, but helicopter flying a trivial hobby. It's all perspective.

Understanding Aikido's specialization is something I've been working on for quite some time. But like most of us on here it's still in the theoretical stages. There is yet any "pudding" to "prove" anything. So I'll save my own opinions for now.

However Aikido is definitely not Kenjutsu (a martial arts specialized in sword fighting) and is also not a complete unarmed system.

mickeygelum
02-11-2010, 11:38 AM
if you can end the conflict by pinning and immobilizing a person without creating harm, you are better off.

Your opinion, and I will respect that...but, not agree with it.

Train well,

Mickey

Toby Threadgill
02-11-2010, 06:19 PM
First I apologize for cross posting but wasn't sure how to insure a comments from both lines of discussion without posting in both threads. If this steps on toes, my apologizes...

Anyway, in this thread there are those that seem to be arguing that aikido is not a complete open hand system.

In the Aiki-Ken vs reality thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16337
Some folks seem to be arguing that aikido is not a complete (weapons systems (forgive the short-hand, I do understand that this is not completely correct).

As a beginner I was hoping that someone would mind relating these two lines of thoughts. I was going to ask if you could resolve the conflict between these two thoughts but I don't see a conflict. It is more that as a beginner I find the two lines of thought to not completely meet. I'm hoping that those with more experience can help me make the connection better (I can do it but it involves Duct Tape, bailing wire and piece of chewing gum).

David,

Semantics is a pain isn't it? How do you define a complete weapons system? I would suggest that since aikido is descended from classical Japanese martial arts, that is where one should start looking.

Bugei Juhappen - 18 martial skills to be studied by the samurai during the Sengoku Jidai (Mid 15th Century - Early 17th Century).

Kenjutsu (Swordmanship)
Battojutsu (Sword Drawing)
Sojutsu (Spear Fighting)
Naginatajutsu (Naginata Fighting)
Kyujutsu (Archery)
Kyuba (Mounted Archery)
Suijutsu, (Swimming)
Bōjutsu (Stick Fighting)
Nagamono (Polearm Fighting)
Torimono Dougu (Arresting Weapons)
Kakushi Buki Jutsu (Hidden Weapons) .
Jujutsu (Unarmed Combat)
Shurikenjutsu (Blade Throwing)
Hojutsu (Musketry)
Jouhou Kaishuu (Information Gathering)
Chikujou (Fortifications)
Angou (Signaling)
Jinei/Heihou (Strategy and Tactics)

Given that Ueshiba did not include even a fraction of the above that include weapons, I think its fair to say aikido cannot be considered a "complete" weapons system in the sense of classical Japanese martial arts.

In fact, most koryu are not "complete" as defined by the bugei juhappan, but many are considered comprehensive as they include several of the above areas of study. These "comprehensive" schools are referred to as sogo bujutsu.

(Before someone asks, TSYR includes 7 of the above in various forms.)

As for aikido not representing a complete empty hand system, it doesn't, but who cares? An argument could be made that Okinawan Karate does not represent a complete empty hand system either. It all in the defining.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

David Board
02-11-2010, 07:27 PM
David,

Semantics is a pain isn't it? How do you define a complete weapons system? I would suggest that since aikido is descended from classical Japanese martial arts, that is where one should start looking.

Bugei Juhappen - 18 martial skills to be studied by the samurai during the Sengoku Jidai (Mid 15th Century - Early 17th Century).

Kenjutsu (Swordmanship)
Battojutsu (Sword Drawing)
Sojutsu (Spear Fighting)
Naginatajutsu (Naginata Fighting)
Kyujutsu (Archery)
Kyuba (Mounted Archery)
Suijutsu, (Swimming)
Bōjutsu (Stick Fighting)
Nagamono (Polearm Fighting)
Torimono Dougu (Arresting Weapons)
Kakushi Buki Jutsu (Hidden Weapons) .
Jujutsu (Unarmed Combat)
Shurikenjutsu (Blade Throwing)
Hojutsu (Musketry)
Jouhou Kaishuu (Information Gathering)
Chikujou (Fortifications)
Angou (Signaling)
Jinei/Heihou (Strategy and Tactics)

Given that Ueshiba did not include even a fraction of the above that include weapons, I think its fair to say aikido cannot be considered a "complete" weapons system in the sense of classical Japanese martial arts.

In fact, most koryu are not "complete" as defined by the bugei juhappan, but many are considered comprehensive as they include several of the above areas of study. These "comprehensive" schools are referred to as sogo bujutsu.

(Before someone asks, TSYR includes 7 of the above in various forms.)

As for aikido not representing a complete empty hand system, it doesn't, but who cares? An argument could be made that Okinawan Karate does not represent a complete empty hand system either. It all in the defining.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Thank you, I have come to the conclusion that complete was the wrong word to use. I knew I didn't want to use effective/ineffective because I've seen what where that can go. Perhaps if I rephrase my post and what I am having difficulty with.

In the this thread folks seem to be saying that the purpose of the open handed techniques or at least ikkyo is to be able to use your weapon. In the weapon thread folks are suggesting that the weapon work is to be better understand the open hand techniques.

If I'm not careful I send myself into a spiral were on technique is designed to use a technique that is designed to prefect the technique to allow me use the technique that is...

I know that is a caricature of the two arguments but in the end I feel that I am missing a piece of the puzzle. There is a link that is missing to connect the two discussions.

The link is probably Aikido itself and as a beginner I am just not comfortable enough with what Aikido is to understand that link.

Thank you for your answer. Even though it wasn't what I was looking for it does help to consider the historic background of Aikido and how it may relate to the question.

By the way what is TYSR?

JO
02-11-2010, 08:03 PM
Sorry, but this not true, as most "pins" are breaks, dislocations and destructions.

It is the contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap" that makes them ineffective.

Train well,

Mickey

I disagree with this post, especially in a thread about ikkyo. I can see tearing wrist ligaments on a nikkyo takedown and dislocating a shoulder on the nikkyo pin. Lots of elbow locks could be pushed into tearing the elbow joint. But ikkyo? I don't see how it can be construed as anything other than a takedown type technique. When done fast against a strong attack, you might flatten the attacker pretty hard, but even then.

As far as the peace and love stuff goes. I don't consider crap, nor do I consider it as being opposed to effective technique (from a martial sense).

Also, considering that aikido is a descendent of the samurai combat arts, temporarily immobilizing an attacker while you draw a weapon makes more sense as a martial origine for the ikkyo pin than trying to break a limb or to "destroy" him with an unarmed technique.

Allen Beebe
02-11-2010, 08:19 PM
This is penance for the past:

I inadvertently "disabled" a friend of mine with an Ikkyo pin while speaking with him through the pin making sure I wasn't hurting him. He is a very high ranking Karate teacher and I not only screwed up his arm, but I screwed up his seminar teaching at the same time.

A student of mine (one of the nicest most gentle guys I know) visiting another dojo inadvertently broke his partner's arm with his ikkyo pin. He was mortified and of course his partner was in a great deal of pain.

BTW, both of these instances were done with very little power or force. When done properly the pin requires almost no force. The "pin" was just done "correctly" to the point of injury.

Ikkyo can injure. Ikkyo can break.

Please be careful. Both sides are "hurt" in accidents! :sorry:

Allen

JO
02-11-2010, 08:24 PM
Having said that, it is very important to work hard to improve the efficiency of ikkyo pin to make roll out more and more difficult.

I don't disagree with the first part of your post, but I figure the original post had more to do with this last bit. So here's my take on making ikkyo work (there is some overlap with what others have posted, but I have a few thoughts to add).

As you bring the arm down and around on the takedown, make sure you are already in control of the shoulder and that the control connects with the uke's center. As the shoulder comes to the mat keep the pressure on. If uke is not under control here, you probably won't make it to the pin.

At this point (uke on the ground with shoulder pinned to the mat and nage with at least the inside knee down), I will move forward with the outside leg while keeping ukes arm againt the upper thigh opf that leg. This is to find the angle at which the uke's arm/shoulder is "tight". Someone already mentioned the more than 90 degree rule. But the actual required angle will vary on the flexibility of the uke. I know people with stiff shoulders who tap out before 90 degrees and others that are still twisting around with a lot of mobility with their arm up by their ear. If a really solid pin is wanted, I would only stop when uke taps out, then release a little pressure before continuing the pin.

I then kneel with the outside knee and slide the arm to the ground, keeping the pressure at the "just about to tap" point. Once the arm is down, I nestle the outside knee into the wrist at the base of the thumb. From there I spread my knees apart, pushing one into the ribs and the other agaist the wrist. This creates an extension on ukes arm. At the same time, I use my hands (one on each side of the elbow) to roll uke's arm so that the elbow points forward and down towards the mat.

Assuming you aren't dealing with a "Gumby" uke and that he didn't squirm out, this should create a tense, twisted feeling running through ukes whole arm, through his shoulder into his side, and this whole part of the body should be held flat against the mat. At least that's how it feels to me as uke when the control is well done.

JO
02-11-2010, 08:31 PM
This is penance for the past:

I inadvertently "disabled" a friend of mine with an Ikkyo pin while speaking with him through the pin making sure I wasn't hurting him. He is a very high ranking Karate teacher and I not only screwed up his arm, but I screwed up his seminar teaching at the same time.

A student of mine (one of the nicest most gentle guys I know) visiting another dojo inadvertently broke his partner's arm with his ikkyo pin. He was mortified and of course his partner was in a great deal of pain.

BTW, both of these instances were done with very little power or force. When done properly the pin requires almost no force. The "pin" was just done "correctly" to the point of injury.

Ikkyo can injure. Ikkyo can break.

Please be careful. Both sides are "hurt" in accidents! :sorry:

Allen

Despite my other post, I know that ikkyo can injure. My wife once decided to see what would happen if she attacked a senior student full force on shomen uchi ikkyo. She was spun around in the air, landed hard on her feet and caused a micro fracture in a vertebra.

But I'm really curious. How does an arm break in ikkyo? What part breaks and where/how did the force act on the arm to break it? Seems like a usefull piece of knowledge to have in order to avoid accidents.

Toby Threadgill
02-11-2010, 08:31 PM
I
Also, considering that aikido is a descendent of the samurai combat arts, temporarily immobilizing an attacker while you draw a weapon makes more sense as a martial origine for the ikkyo pin than trying to break a limb or to "destroy" him with an unarmed technique.

Jonathon,

Actually that makes no sense. Consider......Why would a samurai not break or shatter his adversaries arm prior to dispatching him with a blade?

In TSYR, ikkyo is called "soto ude otoshi" and its execution is considered a potential arm breaker, followed by a stab with a tanto or wakazashi.

Toby Threadgill

Addendum....

Jonathon, just saw your question.

The arm doesn't necessarily break. The elbow usually dislocates first with nasty damage to the ligaments, tendons and surrounding soft tissue. It makes a horrible squeaking noise! Occasionally a spiral fracture of the radius and ulna can occur, (Don't ask why I know this stuff......)

JO
02-11-2010, 08:58 PM
Jonathon,

Actually that makes no sense. Consider......Why would a samurai not break or shatter his adversaries arm prior to dispatching him with a blade?

In TSYR, ikkyo is called "soto ude otoshi" and its execution is considered a potential arm breaker, followed by a stab with a tanto or wakazashi.

Toby Threadgill

Addendum....

Jonathon, just saw your question.

The arm doesn't necessarily break. The elbow usually dislocates first with nasty damage to the ligaments, tendons and surrounding soft tissue. It makes a horrible squeaking noise! Occasionally a spiral fracture of the radius and ulna can occur, (Don't ask why I know this stuff......)

Not disaggreeing. I would hardly dare to on this topic considering your knowledge and my lack thereof. But for my continued education, would the breaking of the arm be considered and esential part of the technique or a "bonus"? I mean, two samurai are involved in combat, they are armed and armoured, everybody involved is a trained fighter (and likely knows something about receiving and countering techniques), how much does breaking/dislocating arms come into play in the focus of this kind of technique?

Allen Beebe
02-11-2010, 11:20 PM
Hi Jonathan,

What Toby said! And yes, there are ways to make sure that one or all those things happen, it's built into the kata. My Aikido sensei taught the introductory Ikkyo pin one way so that one knew how to produce the "desired" result, and then another way so one could see the kata through to the proper end (without the "desired" result.)

Both of the instances I mentioned earlier were done the "safe" learning way so consequently without the "safe" finish and, well, sh** happens . . .

Done the full way . . . :crazy:

BTW, to my mind performing a good Ikkyo isn't a sign of talent, getting to where one can perform a good ikkyo, THAT is a sign of talent. Everybody loves to focus on the end forgetting the fact that they probably died three times before they got to the end.

mickeygelum
02-11-2010, 11:55 PM
Why would a samurai not break or shatter his adversaries arm prior to dispatching him with a blade?

Thank you, Mr Threadgill.

Not disaggreeing. I would hardly dare to on this topic considering your knowledge and my lack thereof

Since Mr Threadgill already replied, as I would have....appears that you sing a different tune depending who is in the audience.

I have had the necessity to pop a few joints within the scope of my profession. An Ikkyo, Ikkajo, Oshi Taoshi, SongSet or armbar, whatever you want to call it, is a quick disabler when it needs to be.

Train well,

Mickey

Nafis Zahir
02-12-2010, 12:58 AM
This is most important key to understand ikkyo pin what Chris is saing. This pin was not designed to pin somebody during 1 minute or make him surrender. It served to hold attacker only for the time of use defenders own weapon to finish attacker. In the same time it preserves defender mobility and freedom of reaction to harmonise with environment.

That is why it is very easy to roll out of ikkyo pin.

Having said that, it is very important to work hard to improve the efficiency of ikkyo pin to make roll out more and more difficult.

I might also add to this that the Ikkyo pin is an extension building excercise. It is used to learn to direct your energy and focus to a certain point. You need to develop that along with the pin in order to make it more effective. As for anything else, the position of your body may help with those who are more flexible or trained in BJJ.

JO
02-12-2010, 06:14 AM
Thank you, Mr Threadgill.

Since Mr Threadgill already replied, as I would have....appears that you sing a different tune depending who is in the audience.

Mickey

It's not a question of who's in the audience, it's how they communicate. Your post I responded to initially was just a statement with no supporting information, paired with a second statement that was dismissive of a lot of people's training. Toby's response was detailed and to the point. I am fully willing to change my mind when faced with a reasonable argument.

This has made me think of ikkyo in a new way. I have had my joints tweaked on just about every other joint lock and have received injuries that took months to fully heal from kote geashi and shiho nage, but never anything of the sort from ikkyo. Just goes to show that even after more than ten years of training, one person's experience does not tell the whole story.

John Matsushima
02-12-2010, 10:43 AM
In my opinion, the ikkyo pin cannot keep a person immobilized, but can prevent a person from attacking directly a second time, and also allows for disarming the attacker. I think that a lot of people focus too much on trying to get the uke to tap out. Since this isn't a sport, I don't see much point in getting uke to tap out. I think it is better that as soon as the uke hits the ground, he should try to get up and attack the nage again directly (not rolling out, but just using force to push back toward nage). I think if the pin is applied correctly, the uke will not be able to get up. For practice, this is when uke should tap, as a signal that he can't get up to attack, and the technique is finished (not because the nage is putting the pain on). If uke wants cease attack and roll out, I say let him. I want to give uke every opportunity to disengage and cease attack. In my experience, I have found this effective against ukes much larger and stronger than myself.

I know of two primary ways of applying the ikkyo pin. One is with the elbow bent. This I have found to be most effective in preventing uke from rising up to attack, but makes it easier to roll out. The second is with the arm flat on the ground, which makes it more difficult for uke to roll out, but I have had trouble keeping down larger and stronger ukes with this pin.

While ikkyo has derived from jujutsu that the samurai used, I doubt that it was used by samurai in its present form, since it was developed by Ueshiba. While I'm sure that whatever techniques the samurai used were for breaking, smashing, killing, I don't think that a basic ikkyo is capable of doing that without modifying it. It doesn't lock the bone structure, nor does it twist muscles and ligaments in opposite directions (as in nikyo), so I don't see it. Sure, one could modify any technique to break, but then is it aikido, or is it just going back to the jujutsu that it once was? I believe that Kisshomaru stated in one of his books that Aikido techniques are done in a natural way as to prevent injury, so I assume that would mean all techniques, including ikkyo.

George S. Ledyard
02-12-2010, 12:09 PM
Sorry, but this not true, as most "pins" are breaks, dislocations and destructions.

It is the contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap" that makes them ineffective.

Train well,

Mickey

Oh, so when you train at your dojo you break, dislocate, or destroy your partners limbs on your "pins"? Don't think I'd be up for training there...

Of course all of our training has an "omote" and an "ura" aspect. The martial application "ura" is normally what Saotome Sensei calls the "dark side" of the training. It is certainly not the dominant paradigm in Aikido, unless one is doing some sort of distorted version of the art.

As has been pointed out, there is a way to do this pin and make it highly effective, even when you haven't totally destroyed your partner's arm. That's the practice. The fact that it is not really a "submission" hold in the way that other locking techniques might be and skilled grapplers can usually find a way out of it with a bit of effort doesn't mean that an understanding of how to use the pin in a non-injurious application means it is contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap"

Most violent confrontations faced by civilians, especially males, are not deadly force confrontations. Deadly force is defined as anything incurring "serious and lasting bodily harm". In other words, most martial arts techniques fall into the "deadly force" category and legally are just about interchangeable with using a firearm. This is especially true for law enforcement, corrections, and security personnel. The idea that concerns with how to apply technique at a less than deadly force level is contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap" is simply a silly samurai wanna be cheap shot and it is inaccurate.

Not only do professionals need to know how to use "less than deadly force" but so do civilians. You really do not want to be in court explaining how you destroyed some guys arm in a pin after he drunkenly took a swing at you. You would almost certainly be found guilty of excessive force. You would be sued and you would lose. Pay up big time...

One the the things that makes Aikido so useful in self defense applications is its flexibility along the whole continuum of force. This is something which most other martial arts do not have. Understanding that is certainly not contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap"

I'm sorry but I found this to be one of the more ridiculous comments I've seen lately.

Adam Huss
02-12-2010, 10:09 PM
While my opinion carries little weight, I shall weigh in anyway:

I think there is a pretty utilitarian difference between a break and a pin. A pin is meant to control someone, while a break tends to subvert that attempt at control (unless you want to control them mentally by causing pain, I guess).

Sometimes one can run into a practitioner who attempts to apologize for poor technique by claiming there is a more brutal way in which to execute said technique. While there is truth to that, there still remains those who abuse that fact (the fact that we train in an injury-concious manner) by claiming every technique/pin they do that doesn't work well isn't being done "for real." All too often that technique is simply being done less correctly than it could be. Take the ikkyo/ikkajo pin for example: if uke's arm is not, at least, perpendicular to their spine, they can easily roll forward to get out of it (for me, I need to get uke's arm/wrist above their shoulder). At the same time, if nage/tori/shite's inside knee is not in uke's armpit, uke has a chance to bring their body to their arm and, again, roll out of it. If their shoulder isn't actually 'pined' to the ground, they can pretty much stand up or roll to the outside.

This shoulder off the ground thing is pretty prevalent in all face down pins, not just ikkyo. Some tend to focus creating pain in the elbow or shoulder joint which actually assists in pulling uke's shoulder off the ground (I'm thinking more of the other face down pins more so than ikkyo). The natural tendency when focus is on the elbow is pull up and twist vice pushing constant pressure down. Then, when someone does a 'what if' and gets out, the response is "well I'd break your elbow or destroy your shoulder." That's all good and fine, but it's also important to control, ie pin, that guy or gal to the ground if one is so inclined to do a pin.

When my teacher does a face down pin on me, my actual shoulder hurts from the pressure of being nailed into the floor. Sometimes it feels like my shoulder is hitting the subfloor through the mat. Rarely is there much pain to my joints (tons of pressure, though).

While that, again, is more for non-ikkyo face down pins...I tend to think of ikkyo as being similar to yonkyo (the yonkyo technique, not necessarily the pin). While it's always nice to get the kyusho jitsu aspect of yonkyo, the actual pressure point/pain is totally secondary to actual control. Similarly, with Ikkyo pin, it seems an effective technique to pin someone to the mat without needing to cause pain anywhere. Again; in my opinion, pins great....breaks great, but two different things (but pins do set up for breaks nicely...aikido has helped expand my karate kata bunkai quite a bit).

v/r
A

mickeygelum
02-14-2010, 11:33 PM
Oh, so when you train at your dojo you break, dislocate, or destroy your partners limbs on your "pins"? Don't think I'd be up for training there...

Of course all of our training has an "omote" and an "ura" aspect. The martial application "ura" is normally what Saotome Sensei calls the "dark side" of the training. It is certainly not the dominant paradigm in Aikido, unless one is doing some sort of distorted version of the art.

As has been pointed out, there is a way to do this pin and make it highly effective, even when you haven't totally destroyed your partner's arm. That's the practice. The fact that it is not really a "submission" hold in the way that other locking techniques might be and skilled grapplers can usually find a way out of it with a bit of effort doesn't mean that an understanding of how to use the pin in a non-injurious application means it is
Quote:
contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap"

Most violent confrontations faced by civilians, especially males, are not deadly force confrontations. Deadly force is defined as anything incurring "serious and lasting bodily harm". In other words, most martial arts techniques fall into the "deadly force" category and legally are just about interchangeable with using a firearm. This is especially true for law enforcement, corrections, and security personnel. The idea that concerns with how to apply technique at a less than deadly force level is
Quote:
contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap"

is simply a silly samurai wanna be cheap shot and it is inaccurate.

Not only do professionals need to know how to use "less than deadly force" but so do civilians. You really do not want to be in court explaining how you destroyed some guys arm in a pin after he drunkenly took a swing at you. You would almost certainly be found guilty of excessive force. You would be sued and you would lose. Pay up big time...

One the the things that makes Aikido so useful in self defense applications is its flexibility along the whole continuum of force. This is something which most other martial arts do not have. Understanding that is certainly not
Quote:
contemporary "fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap"

I'm sorry but I found this to be one of the more ridiculous comments I've seen lately.


Wow...you must really like to hear yourself talk. All that for a three line post, of which you totally missed the point.

Just curious George, no pun intended, when did you ever have to concern yourself directly with the issue of excessive force, other than theory?

Force continuum training and Coopers Threat assessment dictate escalation of force with response alternatives. This is a living evaluation as technology progresses. If you had any law enforcement experience, your dissertation on culpability/liability would have been omitted, though I could be wrong.

And finally, the fluff and peace-love and yada-yada crap proliferates the aikido world, here is a query for reflection, " what effect am I having on it? ". Just because YOU say something, does not make it fact. Get use to hearing that line, I am not the only one who thinks that is true.

Train well,

Mickey

George S. Ledyard
02-15-2010, 04:39 AM
Just curious George, no pun intended, when did you ever have to concern yourself directly with the issue of excessive force, other than theory?


Well, actually Michael, I was a Washington State Defensive Tactics Master Instructor for about ten years. I taught Defensive Tactics to various Police Departments as well as corrections and security folks. I taught Defensive Tactics, which included Use of Force at our local community college in their Administration of Criminal Justice Dept. I taught an ultra low level force restraint programs to local school personnel as well as juvenile corrections personnel. I did Executive Protection training for a couple of years for one of the big corporations here. My partner and I were contracted to consult on one company's Use of Force Policy. I also did DT training for club security personnel.

All training needed to have the Use of Force and Continuum of Resistance as part of the program. It wasn't just "theoretical" since if someone I had taught ran into legal issues over excessive force I could have been included in whatever law suit might have resulted.

mickeygelum
02-15-2010, 07:47 AM
Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote:
Just curious George, no pun intended, when did you ever have to concern yourself directly with the issue of excessive force, other than theory?

Well, actually Michael, I was a Washington State Defensive Tactics Master Instructor for about ten years. I taught Defensive Tactics to various Police Departments as well as corrections and security folks. I taught Defensive Tactics, which included Use of Force at our local community college in their Administration of Criminal Justice Dept. I taught an ultra low level force restraint programs to local school personnel as well as juvenile corrections personnel. I did Executive Protection training for a couple of years for one of the big corporations here. My partner and I were contracted to consult on one company's Use of Force Policy. I also did DT training for club security personnel.

All training needed to have the Use of Force and Continuum of Resistance as part of the program. It wasn't just "theoretical" since if someone I had taught ran into legal issues over excessive force I could have been included in whatever law suit might have resulted.

George, a simple " No " would have sufficed. Thanks for your input.

I apologize to th OP for the direction that this thread has taken.

Train well,

Mickey

raul rodrigo
02-15-2010, 08:06 AM
A simple "no" would not have been an answer to a question that begins "when did you ever.....?"

Amir Krause
02-15-2010, 08:44 AM
I disagree with this post, especially in a thread about ikkyo. I can see tearing wrist ligaments on a nikkyo takedown and dislocating a shoulder on the nikkyo pin. Lots of elbow locks could be pushed into tearing the elbow joint. But ikkyo? I don't see how it can be construed as anything other than a takedown type technique. When done fast against a strong attack, you might flatten the attacker pretty hard, but even then.


I can not give you any medical details, but I do know a fellow practitioner did create a break of some sort, I think the damage was actually to the shoulder while standing. Just to clarify - he was a security officer and the attacker was on drags. Actually, it was many years ago, so I doubt I could give any details.

While ikkyo has derived from jujutsu that the samurai used, I doubt that it was used by samurai in its present form, since it was developed by Ueshiba. While I'm sure that whatever techniques the samurai used were for breaking, smashing, killing, I don't think that a basic ikkyo is capable of doing that without modifying it. It doesn't lock the bone structure, nor does it twist muscles and ligaments in opposite directions (as in nikyo), so I don't see it. Sure, one could modify any technique to break, but then is it aikido, or is it just going back to the jujutsu that it once was? I believe that Kisshomaru stated in one of his books that Aikido techniques are done in a natural way as to prevent injury, so I assume that would mean all techniques, including ikkyo.
And then, on the other hand, we are doing Korindo Aikido, and so we might not be talking of the same Ikkyo ( I have seen some differences in the Ikkyo we use compared to those seen in Aikkai seniors videos). So, if Ueshiba developed a different Ikkyo in his Aikido, we are definitely not doing it.

Amir

Amir Krause
02-15-2010, 09:20 AM
if you can end the conflict by pinning and immobilizing a person without creating harm, you are better off.

Your opinion, and I will respect that...but, not agree with it.

Train well,

Mickey

Sorry,

But I am not sure I understand your suggestion. You would prefer to use a break even though a pin is sufficient to "end the conflict"?

I am not in LE myself, but even as a civilian, I have been in situations at which the required level of force to prevent escalation and conclude the conflict was low (even to the level of just making my presence aside the victim obvious to the aggressor). Why should I wish to use excessive force? (not to mention the limits it creates to training people above have mentioned)

So far, I did not have to use M.A. for S.D. purposes. I have some "dojo mates" who did, and they did it successful, so the hints about
"fluff" and " peace, love and yada-yada crap" are totally misplaced. Especially that these are not even part of my lineage...

Amir

Toby Threadgill
02-15-2010, 05:16 PM
While ikkyo has derived from jujutsu that the samurai used, I doubt that it was used by samurai in its present form, since it was developed by Ueshiba. While I'm sure that whatever techniques the samurai used were for breaking, smashing, killing, I don't think that a basic ikkyo is capable of doing that without modifying it. It doesn't lock the bone structure, nor does it twist muscles and ligaments in opposite directions (as in nikyo), so I don't see it. Sure, one could modify any technique to break, but then is it aikido, or is it just going back to the jujutsu that it once was? I believe that Kisshomaru stated in one of his books that Aikido techniques are done in a natural way as to prevent injury, so I assume that would mean all techniques, including ikkyo.

Hi John,

I respectfully disagree with your assumption here. From a purely technical standpoint Ueshiba didn't "develop" anything. What Ueshiba developed was an expression of technique based on a mindset divorced from classical budo. I have seen virtually every version of every technique in aikido in other schools of koryu jujutsu. Ikkyo, exactly like Ueshiba perfomed it can control, dislocate or tear to smithereens an elbow joint. That's the whole point of good aikido and what George Ledyard was getting at. The option to apply graduated force/control as a philosophical underpinning to technique IS the aikido paradigm. If you think Ueshiba never damaged his uke's, you need to read up more on ol' Morihei. I think he broke Gozo Shioda's arm with an Ikkyo once....

Now, ( I think George and Allen would agree with me here) if an application of technique is devoid of control and inherently damaging, it's probably outside the paradigm of aikido. Consequently, a technique that does not contain the potential of inflicting serious damage is probably not aikido either. An effective technique that is incapable of inflicting bodily damage is IMHO.. an aikido ivory tower pipe dream. It is not a reflection of genuine budo. I have seen some applications of aikido technique that were closer to dance than budo, utterly dependent on an extremely cooperative uke to be successful. If such training is employed as a simple drill, I'm fine with it. However, if such execution of technique is passed off as an actual expression of aikido as budo, I am liable to roll my eyes. I propose there's not much out there that can effectively control a determined adversary that doesn't contain within it the potential for inflicting serious bodily damage. That's just the nature of human physiology and good budo, be it koryu jujutsu or aikido.

In my experience what makes an exceptional aikidoka or koryu bujutsuka is the ability to execute technique in such a way that it provides numerous options. Aikido and koryu jujutsu don't necessarily pursue the same options even though they may apply technique in an identical manner.

I fail to understand how the application of effective but safe technique is necessarily fluffy bunny stuff or how the application of damaging waza is necessarily barbaric. It's all a matter of the situation presented. If you damage but do not maim or kill a determined adversary in the process of defending another from serious physical harm, isn't that still an expression of "aikido" ?

It all comes down to having the technical capacity and depth of training experience to choose an appropriate option. The options of koryu budo are based on a time and place quite different from that of modern aikido. However, to assume the application of technique MUST necessarily be different, demonstrates a lack familiarity with both.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

George S. Ledyard
02-15-2010, 07:17 PM
Sorry,

But I am not sure I understand your suggestion. You would prefer to use a break even though a pin is sufficient to "end the conflict"?

I am not in LE myself, but even as a civilian, I have been in situations at which the required level of force to prevent escalation and conclude the conflict was low (even to the level of just making my presence aside the victim obvious to the aggressor). Why should I wish to use excessive force? (not to mention the limits it creates to training people above have mentioned)

So far, I did not have to use M.A. for S.D. purposes. I have some "dojo mates" who did, and they did it successful, so the hints about
are totally misplaced. Especially that these are not even part of my lineage...

Amir

The standard for Use of Force application is called the "reasonable man" standard. In other words, what would a so-called "reasonable man" perceive a given threat to be and the he is expected to apply force accordingly.

If a non-injurious immobilization could have ended an encounter, applying a far more destructive breaking technique could easily be considered excessive force. The standard is higher for someone with training, like a martial artist. In other words he is expected to exercise more restraint than a typical citizen because his training raises the threat threshold.

You definitely do not want to be in front of a jury with the plaintiff's lawyer asking you if you can say for sure that a lesser application of force wouldn't have stopped the threat. It's difficult to prove a negative. The fact is, you are far better off from a legal standpoint having attempted a lower level force technique that failed and then applying the more destructive application.

Of course you have to make the decision yourself what the threat level is and it needs to be believable to a jury of folks who are not trained and are often repulsed by techniques which seem savage to someone not trained. You'd best believe that the plaintiff will have shocking full color pictures of the injury.

This is always a difficult area. Far more officers are injured due to under application of force on the initial hands on than there are subjects injured due to excessive force. As a civilian you are required to remove yourself from the threat if reasonably possible (preclusion) whereas security professional go towards the threat. If you could have precluded the whole encounter by removing yourself from the scene and then you stay and destroy the guys arm, you are really going to have a hard time on the stand in front of that jury.

The whole point of my earlier post was that most martial arts techniques come from arts that at one point in their history were combat arts. The majority of the techniques contained in these arts fall well within the definition of "deadly force ". So the "reasonable man" would have to perceive that he was in danger of "serious and lasting bodily harm" before he could use techniques of that level against an opponent. The whole thing is "subjective" in the sense that you are the one who articulates what your own perception of the threat actually was at the time. However, it has to be believable to a judge or jury.

For instance, a two hundred pound martial artist when confronted by a smaller drunk with no apparent raining will have a very difficult time making anyone believe he was afraid for his life unless a weapon was present or there were several attackers.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with knowing some very destructive techniques. In the case of a confrontation with multiple attackers, it may be the correct and most effective thing to do to totally destroy the first guy you touch. That has been known to end a violent encounter right there. But training for everything to be executed at the maximum level of destructive power and assuming that this is how you'd do a technique in any encounter regardless of these other factors is both irresponsible and can get one into legal trouble.

philippe willaume
02-23-2010, 01:17 PM
I was just wondering how you prevent somebody from rolling out of the ikkyo pin?

Thanks
Use the knife taking pin
or
Pin the elbow to the floor and lift the hand
or
Put one knee on the elbow, the other knee on his back, and if you feel like stretch and push his neck with your front arm.

But more than likely he is not rolling out ot the pin he his rolling out of the technique. When you are transitioning to the pin is when he has the opportunity to escape which mean that he must have gotten the timing and measure before that.
Phil

Walter Martindale
02-24-2010, 02:19 AM
Alrighty then. Ikkyo can pin effectively - Once again, I'll ask again on behalf of the others who have asked:

Toby Threadgill... please (unless in skimming the thread I've missed it, in which case I apologise).

WTheck does TSYR stand for. The Silly Young Rebel? Two Small Yearling Rabbits? Tango Sierra Yankee Romeo? The Society Yoda Rejected?
Come on.
W

George S. Ledyard
02-24-2010, 03:11 AM
WTheck does TSYR stand for. The Silly Young Rebel? Two Small Yearling Rabbits? Tango Sierra Yankee Romeo? The Society Yoda Rejected?
Come on.
W
Takamura Ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu if I remember correctly...

Walter Martindale
02-24-2010, 11:08 AM
Takamura Ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu if I remember correctly...

Ah..
Thanks heaps.
Walter

aikiSteve
03-11-2010, 11:34 PM
If uke can roll over his shoulder, the pin is wrong. The Ikkyo pin doesn't have to break, dislocate or be full of crap. It absolutely CAN pin someone down and keep them from rolling over their own shoulder through correct physical position, not magic.

This is not going to come out correctly writing it, but i'll try anyway... Let's say you're pinning the right arm. Think about knee walking. Your left knee is in the armpit, but your right knee is not down yet. This is the mistake most people make, in my opinion. Let uke's arm rest on your right thigh. By allowing your right knee to be up, it causes uke's hand to be off the mat the arm is on an angle. That angle determines how much pressure is pushing uke's right shoulder into the mat. If Uke can still raise his shoulder or roll over it, turn your center to the left towards uke's head and slowly lower your right knee down. The more your center pivots toward uke's center, the more pressure is applied to the right shoulder.

It gives a wonderful stretch and the downward pressure on the shoulder will keep uke from rolling out of it.

mickeygelum
03-12-2010, 12:03 AM
You do not understand ikkyo either, give back the black pants..:)

I do not think you want to dispute this example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0TPWL-bhY

Ikkyo, irimi or tenkan, is an elbow technique, not a shoulder technique, according to Aikikai standards, that is what you list as your heritage., correct?

Train well,

Mickey

Peter Chenier
03-12-2010, 01:47 AM
If I may..and with respect..is it not true that ikkyo is no waza..so would not any pin be that happened after defeating the uke's attack on point of contact be considered an ikkyo pin?

sakumeikan
03-12-2010, 03:02 AM
Wanted to post the same thing.

A trained person can get out of most of the Aikido pins, but if the pin is done correctly, it takes too long to get out of, assuming the time is used by Tori to draw his own weapon and cuts.

Amir

Dear Amir,
Having been pinned in ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo by very senior Shihan your assertion that you can escape easily from a pin is incorrect.If the pin[especially Sankyo ] is applied correctly and
with power the likely outcome of this would be uke tapping out .When pinning with ikkyo , you have to ensure ukes arm is at the correct angle[slightly above shoulder level], strong pressure must be exerted on elbow joint and you as Tori have to maintain Zanshiin to take steps to vary the hold depending on reaction of uke.No reason why you cannot hold elbow with one hand and apply atemi on ukes neck for example.Hold the head in place and the guy has trouble moving.In Judo for example to pin a man you control, onne arm , head and hips.

aikiSteve
03-12-2010, 02:56 PM
You can also control uke's left and right hip through the ikkyo pin. For example, if you're pinning the right arm and uke attempts to lift his left hip, he'll tend to pivot his body on his right shoulder, lifting the arm up removes the shoulder pivot point. The opposite is true with the right hip, lower the shoulder down removes the ability to pivot on the left shoulder.

I may have that reversed, I haven't done that in a while.

Fred Little
03-12-2010, 04:25 PM
You do not understand ikkyo either, give back the black pants..:)

I do not think you want to dispute this example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0TPWL-bhY

Ikkyo, irimi or tenkan, is an elbow technique, not a shoulder technique, according to Aikikai standards, that is what you list as your heritage., correct?

Train well,

Mickey

I would argue that the Tissier clip is less an "elbow" technique than an "upper arm immediately above the elbow" technique.

On the other hand, Rokkyo is the sort of thing I think of when I hear the phrase "elbow technique." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myAffBW8eUM)

But I don't really care about nomenclature nearly as much as I once did, because I've spent enough time in academia to see what an empty shell game it generally turns out to be. In academia, so in aikido: the arguments are so bitter because the stakes are so very low.

Best,

FL



YM

Janet Rosen
03-12-2010, 05:14 PM
In academia, so in aikido: the arguments are so bitter because the stakes are so very low.

Oh, Fred, thank you :-)

aikiSteve
03-13-2010, 10:58 PM
Ikkyo, irimi or tenkan, is an elbow technique, not a shoulder technique

It's neither elbow nor shoulder. Those are just tools to get down the spine to manipulate uke's center.

Just like kokyudosa is neither an elbow nor shoulder technique, but you use uke's wrists, elbows, shoulders and spine to get to his/her center.

Amir Krause
03-14-2010, 08:10 AM
Dear Amir,
Having been pinned in ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo by very senior Shihan your assertion that you can escape easily from a pin is incorrect.If the pin[especially Sankyo ] is applied correctly and
with power the likely outcome of this would be uke tapping out .When pinning with ikkyo , you have to ensure ukes arm is at the correct angle[slightly above shoulder level], strong pressure must be exerted on elbow joint and you as Tori have to maintain Zanshiin to take steps to vary the hold depending on reaction of uke.No reason why you cannot hold elbow with one hand and apply atemi on ukes neck for example.Hold the head in place and the guy has trouble moving.In Judo for example to pin a man you control, onne arm , head and hips.

Once, I thought the same as you...

Since then, I have met people who have better understanding of playing in such situations (laying on the ground). Thus, I came to realize that given good knowledge of such play (better then that of the pin holder), a TRAINED person can get out of the pin.
To escape, one would have to strain some, suffer some pain (depending on his flexibility), twist and simultaneously change the angles in multiple joints (e.g. elbow and shoulder) and so slowly change the original situation and get out of the pin.

Note, this does not mean the pin is useless, it does gain the pin holder a great advantage and a level of control for some limited time. And, if you are much better trained, you should be able to hold the pin for very long duration.

Amir
P.S.
From what I hae been told, the same is true for judo pins, there are ways out for most of them, even given Judo rules. A better trained person could normally get out of a lesser trained person pin given sufficient time. And that is despite most Judo pins have larger areas of contact.

Abasan
03-14-2010, 08:53 AM
If I may..and with respect..is it not true that ikkyo is no waza..so would not any pin be that happened after defeating the uke's attack on point of contact be considered an ikkyo pin?

Actually we call it katame waza and we don't consider it as part of ikkyo. But I think the spirit of the discussion refers to the pin as the one done after doing ikkyo.

John Matsushima
03-15-2010, 08:12 PM
Does anyone know of a video where the shoulder is being pinned down with an ikkyo pin?

Erick Mead
03-16-2010, 11:27 AM
I concur.

Just my opinion, there is no reason to pin.

Train well,

MickeyReally? Even in classical koryu one had real situations in which one could not permissibly respond to a very real attack by doing possibly mortal or even serious injury -- such as being attacked by your lord's dissolute angry son, for instance, or someone else under his protection, ... While the classical era allowed for liberal killing in some circumstances -- there were very strict rules for that sort of thing, that could just as easily put the defender at hazard....

Let's say you are attacked by:

1) your brother-in-law (drunk or sober)

2) a cop (hopefully drunk)

3) a distraught mother/wife/sister of someone at the scene of an accident

Are seriously saying that there is no utility in pinning, classically or modernly?

Erick Mead
03-16-2010, 11:33 AM
In academia, so in aikido: the arguments are so bitter because the stakes are so very low.

"An argument is a connected series of statements, intended to establish a proposition -- it isn't just saying, 'No, it isn;t.'"

"Yes, it is."

"No, it isn't.

;) :D

Erick Mead
03-16-2010, 12:48 PM
On a related note, however, this does bring a useful issue of how we should deal with escalation -- in training and otherwise. I have been thinking about this bit.

It seems to me that one school of thought likes to keep the escalation very low -- and with a lessening of the "rate" of escalation, if you will. The thought seems to be that the ramp up to possibly damaging intensity is thereby made less likely.

I think that is actually wrong, and that the "shape" of a safer escalation dynamic is actually less obvious than the "low-key" approach. I think in images for abstract concepts quite often, and they are hard to capture sometimes, but I think work quite well on this one.

This is the dynamic 'shape' that I think most people try to adopt when escalation is a concern.

http://blog.mdwoptions.com/.a/6a00e55367a353883400e5545188818834-800wi

This is the image of the dynamic I have, or strive for:

http://www.xahlee.org/SpecialPlaneCurves_dir/Tractrix_dir/tractrix.png

In martial terms, it is very necessary to be very close to the border between mere discomfort or threat and actual wounding. Thus, ramping quickly up to, and maintaining, the dynamic in that borderline area or dynamic cusp level is very important.

I think people have a false sense of comfort with the 'width' of the relatively flat part on top of the bell curve dynamic. Staying there involves a lot of second-guessing about the direction or sign of the immediate dynamic as well maintaining level of intensity, (i.e -- alternately pressing or relenting), to avoiding falling off into irrevocable injury or back into (martially) pointless "dance."

The second one seems far better than the first to me. The defining line between discomfort and irrevocable damage is very clear on the second one, and depends on intensity alone, not the direction of the pressure-- which is always in the same direction, so there is only one variable, not a change of sign or 'wobble' in the action. there is not relenting only pressing and then only the moderation of rate of increase to guage absolute intensity.

In the first image however, "dynamic" momentum could very easily put you over the hump into damaging territory, and perhaps unnecessarily or very likely unintentionally. The first image puts a sharper and more defined "point" or cusp on the dynamic, and at the same time makes the intensity ramp up sharply rather than tail off or become "wobbly".

That gives fairly definite dynamic goal for training --- the same one as for actual engagement -- just shy of the point of doing real injury in the given circumstance with a steep (and natural) slope of de-escalation or a narrow but very sharp and distinct boundary into real damage if necessity provokes the extra intensity needed to "push" over that sharp peak.

The "dynamic" cusp approach would seem to result in a deterrent to initial aggression (a bonus factor, not a goal) -- the lower "ramp up" seems to have little deterrent advantage, and actually seems more dangerous for "carrying over" inadvertently into the irrevocable injury territory. There seem to a number of "cusps" shown in various scenarios, or waza, (or bunkai or batto for the weapons folks), This perspective seems to me somewhat important as a training observation as well as in the management of actual violence and a way to tie them meaningfully together.

Just a thought raised by the pinning discussion.

mickeygelum
03-16-2010, 02:40 PM
Erick,

Kata only...we do not live in fuedal Japan and honor means nothing in today's society.

Do you have a graph, chart or historical reference for the degradation of mores, values, and ethics as related to crimes of passion, narcotics and hate?

Thanks for your input.

Mickey

Erick Mead
03-16-2010, 05:27 PM
Erick,

Kata only...we do not live in fuedal Japan and honor means nothing in today's society. Do you have a graph, chart or historical reference for the degradation of mores, values, and ethics as related to crimes of passion, narcotics and hate? Who said anything about honor? Action of any kind is not free of obligation to circumstance as long as there are social consequences to that action -- and there always are -- right, wrong or indifferent.

Put more bluntly, if my car breaks down in a neighborhood of (how did you say? "degradation of mores, values, and ethics as related to crimes of passion, narcotics and hate") and I find myself having to depart alone with a weapon of six rounds and a gang of ten with indeterminate weapons, I'd best be minding my manner of escalation to keep it from getting too high too fast, because very little of mine is likely to do me much good if the ultimate conclusion is reached.

But the same is true of long distance randori appropriate to that circumstance as is true of pins -- in the larger scheme of things. It is all of a piece in how we connect and engage -- be it exceedingly hard or intangibly light.

We should all broaden our horizons as to the beginnings and the endings of engagements because those connections become established whether we know it or not-- and change, whether we like it or not, and we may not like the narrower kind of connection awareness that gets visited on us.

Thanks for your input.
Anytime.

David Board
03-16-2010, 05:43 PM
On a related note, however, this does bring a useful issue of how we should deal with escalation -- in training and otherwise. I have been thinking about this bit.

It seems to me that one school of thought likes to keep the escalation very low -- and with a lessening of the "rate" of escalation, if you will. The thought seems to be that the ramp up to possibly damaging intensity is thereby made less likely.

I think that is actually wrong, and that the "shape" of a safer escalation dynamic is actually less obvious than the "low-key" approach. I think in images for abstract concepts quite often, and they are hard to capture sometimes, but I think work quite well on this one.

This is the dynamic 'shape' that I think most people try to adopt when escalation is a concern.

http://blog.mdwoptions.com/.a/6a00e55367a353883400e5545188818834-800wi

This is the image of the dynamic I have, or strive for:

http://www.xahlee.org/SpecialPlaneCurves_dir/Tractrix_dir/tractrix.png

In martial terms, it is very necessary to be very close to the border between mere discomfort or threat and actual wounding. Thus, ramping quickly up to, and maintaining, the dynamic in that borderline area or dynamic cusp level is very important.

I think people have a false sense of comfort with the 'width' of the relatively flat part on top of the bell curve dynamic. Staying there involves a lot of second-guessing about the direction or sign of the immediate dynamic as well maintaining level of intensity, (i.e -- alternately pressing or relenting), to avoiding falling off into irrevocable injury or back into (martially) pointless "dance."

The second one seems far better than the first to me. The defining line between discomfort and irrevocable damage is very clear on the second one, and depends on intensity alone, not the direction of the pressure-- which is always in the same direction, so there is only one variable, not a change of sign or 'wobble' in the action. there is not relenting only pressing and then only the moderation of rate of increase to guage absolute intensity.

In the first image however, "dynamic" momentum could very easily put you over the hump into damaging territory, and perhaps unnecessarily or very likely unintentionally. The first image puts a sharper and more defined "point" or cusp on the dynamic, and at the same time makes the intensity ramp up sharply rather than tail off or become "wobbly".

That gives fairly definite dynamic goal for training --- the same one as for actual engagement -- just shy of the point of doing real injury in the given circumstance with a steep (and natural) slope of de-escalation or a narrow but very sharp and distinct boundary into real damage if necessity provokes the extra intensity needed to "push" over that sharp peak.

The "dynamic" cusp approach would seem to result in a deterrent to initial aggression (a bonus factor, not a goal) -- the lower "ramp up" seems to have little deterrent advantage, and actually seems more dangerous for "carrying over" inadvertently into the irrevocable injury territory. There seem to a number of "cusps" shown in various scenarios, or waza, (or bunkai or batto for the weapons folks), This perspective seems to me somewhat important as a training observation as well as in the management of actual violence and a way to tie them meaningfully together.

Just a thought raised by the pinning discussion.

Just so I understand. What are x and y on these graphs? And also can you clarify, what function creates them and how does that function change so that so that the two can be compared? Or are they two functions and if so how do they differ? Sorry to barrage you with questions. I am just having trouble relating what you are saying with what those graphs represent.

Erick Mead
03-17-2010, 12:39 AM
Just so I understand. What are x and y on these graphs? And also can you clarify, what function creates them and how does that function change so that so that the two can be compared? Or are they two functions and if so how do they differ? Sorry to barrage you with questions. I am just having trouble relating what you are saying with what those graphs represent. It is demonstrative, not representative, but --- the one I prefer is a tractrix. Vertical scale is roughly dynamic intensity to the point of yield from recoverable injury to irrecoverable, beginning at the cusp (breaking stuff). X would be the respective will of the opponents in opposite sign -- from my perspective -- my willingness to engage on one side of the cusp and his will to disengage on the other side (that is actually the correct basis for the curve in question the "hundkurve" was literally described by a dog on a leash -- on one side the dog pulling the owner toward some item of attraction, and on the other the owner pulling the dog away from it -- so it is more than merely demonstrative in that sense.

The one I critique (the bell or quasi~parabolic) is one that I think most people *think* is better, a slow escalation and as nearing the peak, getting flatter, more hesitant, less steeply rising in intensity. Problem being the boundary is unclear and verging into the breaking or irrecoverable damage area is harder to avoid unintended, and to maintain near that peak, which is necessary, involves more variables, because the sign of the curve and the intensity both change too subtly in too wide an area to give clear signal where the gradient is going --giving an opponent a false sense perhaps, that you are withdrawing, and thus prolonging the engagement with false hope. Also the rounder curve encompasses more area under it, and thus accumulates more total harm both recoverable and unrecoverable.

jonreading
03-17-2010, 03:23 PM
Only Erick could somehow bring a graph into a discussion about ikkyo...:)

Since many of the suggestions on this thread address the initial poster's question about improving the ikkyo pin, I will slightly digress to the larger points of the role of pinning and and importance of pinning in aikido. I think pins are great tools for flexibility and restraint and improve connection between uke and nage.

First off, pinning is uncomfortable when done correctly; the pin should not result in injury, but it should be uncomfortable and persuade uke from attempting to escape the pin.

Second, pins indicate the cessation of technique. Pins are the ultimate, "please stop, this exercise is over." We can both agree to end an exercise, but I can demonstrate control over uke through the use of pinning. In this sense, we treat pinning as part of aikido "kata" because it is the last element of the technique.

Third, pins work. Functionally, the pin is symbolic of the time in which it would take nage to end the exchange, either through personal violence (the "draw my weapon and kill you" approach) or restraint (the "hold you down til the cavalry arrive" approach).

The debate therefore is not whether pins work, but rather what motivates uke to solicit a more uncomfortable pin by attempting to escape. To that extent, it concerns me when uke attempts to escape a pin because that signals uke does not believe the exchange to be at its end. Pins should communicate, "I can hurt you, you cannot defend yourself. Stop your actions and submit to me."

David Board
03-17-2010, 04:25 PM
It is demonstrative, not representative, but --- the one I prefer is a tractrix. Vertical scale is roughly dynamic intensity to the point of yield from recoverable injury to irrecoverable, beginning at the cusp (breaking stuff). X would be the respective will of the opponents in opposite sign -- from my perspective -- my willingness to engage on one side of the cusp and his will to disengage on the other side (that is actually the correct basis for the curve in question the "hundkurve" was literally described by a dog on a leash -- on one side the dog pulling the owner toward some item of attraction, and on the other the owner pulling the dog away from it -- so it is more than merely demonstrative in that sense.

The one I critique (the bell or quasi~parabolic) is one that I think most people *think* is better, a slow escalation and as nearing the peak, getting flatter, more hesitant, less steeply rising in intensity. Problem being the boundary is unclear and verging into the breaking or irrecoverable damage area is harder to avoid unintended, and to maintain near that peak, which is necessary, involves more variables, because the sign of the curve and the intensity both change too subtly in too wide an area to give clear signal where the gradient is going --giving an opponent a false sense perhaps, that you are withdrawing, and thus prolonging the engagement with false hope. Also the rounder curve encompasses more area under it, and thus accumulates more total harm both recoverable and unrecoverable.

Hmm, not sure I see them demonstrating that but that's probably because I'm used to a graph being more than a vague sketch. My apologies for getting caught up in the analogy and not in what you are trying to say.

So back to the mat with me and hopefully some day I'll better understand what you are saying.

Walter Martindale
03-17-2010, 05:17 PM
(Snip)

Third, pins work. Functionally, the pin is symbolic of the time in which it would take nage to end the exchange, either through personal violence (the "draw my weapon and kill you" approach) or restraint (the "hold you down til the cavalry arrive" approach).

The debate therefore is not whether pins work, but rather what motivates uke to solicit a more uncomfortable pin by attempting to escape. To that extent, it concerns me when uke attempts to escape a pin because that signals uke does not believe the exchange to be at its end. Pins should communicate, "I can hurt you, you cannot defend yourself. Stop your actions and submit to me."

Another personal violence thing about the pins - the "take your weapon with which you tried to kill me, and kill you" approach...
W

Erick Mead
03-17-2010, 05:18 PM
Hmm, not sure I see them demonstrating that but that's probably because I'm used to a graph being more than a vague sketch. My apologies for getting caught up in the analogy and not in what you are trying to say.

So back to the mat with me and hopefully some day I'll better understand what you are saying.It's a military thing. We love the graphs and diagrams on process, (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13931&highlight=ooda) dynamic and op tempo stuff (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13535&highlight=ooda)... It comes from playing with "the implements of destruction" -- leading -- inevitably -- to the proverbial "twenty-seven 8 X 10 color glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on on the back explainin' what each one was to be used as evidence against us.. ." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GguFmYRryz8&feature=related)
;)

Point for the thread topic being, however and agreeing with Jon, that folks quite often either get into "throw mode" ignoring the pin as the natural resolution of the engagement at a "cusp" in the dynamic -- or try to force the pin somewhere else too soon, or carrying on past that cusp with force to break something, when the pin should just appear and you simply "firm up" into the shape of it.

The canonical waza (IMO) are fairly well set up to make that point easier to see -- if you do it correctly, and harder if you don't. The ikkyo pin is really just a continuation and maintenance of the peak energy of the ikkyo shape but on the ground. focus on the arm and the torso is free to roll.over the shoulder, engage the arm and the shoulder but do not reach to torso and the torso can still logroll around behind you -- One must continue and maintain the same ikkyo cutting dynamic that torques the arm, shoulder AND torso in a longitudinal spiral while reaching through his center -- otherwise the pin won't work - the pin is the waza, just reoriented and slowed, like water turning to molasses, with the same flow energy and intent, like a knife at the throat.

David Board
03-17-2010, 05:56 PM
It's a military thing. We love the graphs and diagrams on process, (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13931&highlight=ooda) dynamic and op tempo stuff (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13535&highlight=ooda)... It comes from playing with "the implements of destruction" -- leading -- inevitably -- to the proverbial "twenty-seven 8 X 10 color glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on on the back explainin' what each one was to be used as evidence against us.. ." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GguFmYRryz8&feature=related)
;)

Point for the thread topic being, however and agreeing with Jon, that folks quite often either get into "throw mode" ignoring the pin as the natural resolution of the engagement at a "cusp" in the dynamic -- or try to force the pin somewhere else too soon, or carrying on past that cusp with force to break something, when the pin should just appear and you simply "firm up" into the shape of it.

The canonical waza (IMO) are fairly well set up to make that point easier to see -- if you do it correctly, and harder if you don't. The ikkyo pin is really just a continuation and maintenance of the peak energy of the ikkyo shape but on the ground. focus on the arm and the torso is free to roll.over the shoulder, engage the arm and the shoulder but do not reach to torso and the torso can still logroll around behind you -- One must continue and maintain the same ikkyo cutting dynamic that torques the arm, shoulder AND torso in a longitudinal spiral while reaching through his center -- otherwise the pin won't work - the pin is the waza, just reoriented and slowed, like water turning to molasses, with the same flow energy and intent, like a knife at the throat.
Ah, I'm a statistical ecologist and the normal distribution caught my eye. I then brought a lot of my bias of what that sort of graph represents into what you were trying to say. Should of read with beginners mind, as they say. You would think as a beginner that would be easy but some times my other training gets in the way of my training.

I'm tracking now. Thanks for your patience.