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t_jordan22
02-08-2010, 02:12 PM
ttht

Russ Q
02-08-2010, 02:15 PM
Should you smoke it on any journey....? Definitely not when you're crossing any borders...:-)

Cheers,

Russ

SeiserL
02-08-2010, 02:58 PM
IMHO, no.

Lyle Laizure
02-08-2010, 03:38 PM
no

ChrisHein
02-08-2010, 03:42 PM
There are lots of avenues of experience out there. The ones you choose are up to you.

SteveTrinkle
02-08-2010, 04:04 PM
Should you smoke marijuana before posting on aikiweb?

George S. Ledyard
02-09-2010, 01:23 AM
You show up high on the mat and you are sent home.

Josh Lerner
02-09-2010, 01:45 AM
When I was in undergraduate school, my advisor (whose specialties were Daoism, tantric Buddhism and various fringe Asian religious practices like Tachikawa-ryu) handed me a manuscript that had been sent to him from an American in Taiwan. The author was engaged in a fairly intensive Daoist meditation and qigong practice, and an even more intensive psilocybin ingestion practice. The manuscript was a relatively detailed account of various amounts of mushrooms being ingested and the effects on his practices. I remember it being very well written, fascinating, and disturbing all at the same time. I wish I'd kept a copy.

This was the same advisor who handed me a copy of The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, a book insisting that Christianity started off as a hallucinogenic mushroom cult, based on linguistic and iconographical evidence. He was a wild advisor.

Josh

dalen7
02-09-2010, 03:08 AM
Should you smoke marijuana before posting on aikiweb?

ROFL!!! :D

Break...

ROFL!!! :D

... ok, laughter has subsided.

Now, as for good ol' THC, I have to say I have been impressed with what I have read since around 1999 about its uses medicinally.
[I worked in a medical environment delivering daily animated news stories to Dr.s and a few THC ones came across my desk.]

Articles from JAMA, LANCET, NATURE, SCIENCE, etc. - they have great stuff in there the average american doesnt read, nor would I think the industry would want them to read.

I think there is a time and place for everything, and the apparent misuse of something helps to generate a certain negative feeling to something that definitely has a positive role, but is hindered due to various 'political' reasons. [mainly $$$, thats why they have synthesized it... you dont make money if you can grow your own] ;)

As for using it on your Aikido journey, you must be aware of your current environment. [i.e., are you in the Netherlands? If not you may be limited to your journeys as far as THC is concerned...]

My personal beliefs is that nature should not and cannot be illegal.
And in a strange sense we are illegal as we have DMT naturally occurring in our brains - and DMT is illegal in many states as I understand it.

Again you can get into the theory of all of this, but the fact is things are where they are and you have to make your choices accordingly knowing this.

From how I understand it, THC would be best used for medicine... not necessarily enlightenment which is something that is up to you and not an outside source anyway.

As for guides it would seem that natures magical mushrooms can act as a guide, albeit I do believe they are now pretty much illegal everywhere as well. [though people playing with shrooms gets less as many appear not to be prepared for the trip they will take.]

I have been intrigued with the stories I have read about psilocybin and its potential use for people with O.C.D. [obsessive compulsive disorder] - I believe I can see how this would work... a good breaking of the ego. [kind of like what Ram Dass talks about with his LSD experience, though not everyone is ready for ego dissolution.] ;)

Peace

dAlen

dps
02-09-2010, 07:03 AM
ttht
To what end?
In hopes of doing Aikido better?

jxa127
02-09-2010, 07:22 AM
What the hell is "ttht"?

In answer to the question: no. It smells bad.

dps
02-09-2010, 07:27 AM
What the hell is "ttht"?
.
Inhaling.

David

ruthmc
02-09-2010, 08:07 AM
As it destroys your ability to focus and your motivation to do anything much at all, I'd suggest not!

Ruth

oisin bourke
02-09-2010, 08:30 AM
As it destroys your ability to focus and your motivation to do anything much at all, I'd suggest not!

Ruth

It doesn't destroy your motivation. It makes you realise most things aren't worth bothering about:D

Ketsan
02-09-2010, 09:16 AM
This was the same advisor who handed me a copy of The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, a book insisting that Christianity started off as a hallucinogenic mushroom cult, based on linguistic and iconographical evidence.

Josh

Then they got started on the wine, after that the whole party kinda went down hill. :D

Janet Rosen
02-09-2010, 10:40 AM
Yrs ago I once bowed out of class and left because the instructor looked and acted totally stoned. Never went to another class w/ that person.

Keith Larman
02-09-2010, 12:30 PM
If you come on the mat impaired, well, I'm with George -- you should find the door asap. I don't care why you're impaired or what you're impaired from -- I don't want you hurt nor do I want you doing anything to or with anyone else. If you're not 100% there do everyone a favor and stay home. Enjoy it in private, but I don't want you cranking on my elbow...

Other than that, well, it kinda depends on the answer to the "to what end" question, neh? Few really doubt there can be medical reasons to use marijuana. The problem is that like some drugs it can impair the user. So see paragraph 1 up above...

mickeygelum
02-09-2010, 12:51 PM
Dude...I wanna...TTHT...COUGH...train with you guys, where...TTHT...BWOOPPP... is your dojo located? :cool:

Nick P.
02-09-2010, 01:34 PM
#1. No

#2. http://newsrealblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/dont-feed-the-troll.jpg

Mannix Moya
02-09-2010, 07:26 PM
Should you smoke marijuana before posting on aikiweb?
:D

aikidoc
02-09-2010, 08:09 PM
Agree with George. Under the influence of anything-drugs, alcohol, mushrooms, etc. is not only disrespectful to the art and dojo but dangerous to your fellow classmates and yourself. Stay home and contemplate your navel.

Johann Baptista
02-09-2010, 10:13 PM
I say no because I know (and stay away from) many people who smoke it regularly and they are exactly like said above; slow-witted, unmotivated, and addicted.

I believe it is a disrespect to the traditions that bore the art. Besides, it smells bad, makes you dependent on it thereby limiting your freedom, and is plain unhealthy. Gives you a shorter life span, reduced lung capacity, and decreased potential. Plus, there's the fact that its illegal. You also have to keep contacts with drug dealers and there's a much higher potential to get into trouble with gangs. Is all this really worth the few minutes of being high? I say no.

Johann Baptista
02-09-2010, 10:18 PM
By the way, why is this thread on "Spiritual" instead of "Off the mat?":confused:

mathewjgano
02-09-2010, 11:16 PM
By the way, why is this thread on "Spiritual" instead of "Off the mat?":confused:

For the Rasta Aikidoists of course! Bob played here man!
Well sensei Barrish has expressed a pretty strong opinion against it, i believe because of its effects on attention and focus.
I've got some experience with it and I can't see any benefit, while I do see plenty of drawbacks, most notably the damage done to the lungs from smoking.

Chicko Xerri
02-09-2010, 11:18 PM
To help purify the senses and interpret the higher self, one requires fresh clean air, water, forests, mountains and on occasions solitude. Practice Aikido rigorously while youthful; contemplate with inner vision on all your experience when aged.
Marijuana has its place with human lives, not with those intent on the way of Aiki.
For me I would say NO! .

lbb
02-10-2010, 09:55 AM
I believe it is a disrespect to the traditions that bore the art.

I don't think it has anything to do with the art per se. I mean, why should the fact that you're on an "aikido journey", so-called, be the reason why you question whether or not it is appropriate to smoke marijuana? The question makes no sense to me. It's like asking, "Should you eat pork rinds if you're a CPA?"

Marc Abrams
02-10-2010, 11:19 AM
Training in any athletic endeavor when you are impaired/under the influence of any mind-altering substance is potentially dangerous not only to the person, but to anybody who trains with that person.

I can not think of any cogent reason why any dojo should allow a person to train in an altered state. I have even spoken to a student who had alcohol on his breath, despite acting entirely sober. As the owner of a dojo, I am ultimately responsible for the well-being of the students training there. Clean body, mind and uniforms are simply starting points to walk onto my mats!

True Story:

One of my sempai was going through a divorce and would smoke pot before training. Pot calms must people down. For him, it had a disinhibitory effect. The result was that he became an angry snap and people would get hurt (big strong person). This person needed to spoken to and told what was going on and that nobody really wanted to train with him anymore. This is a good person who was oblivious as to what was going on. He had no intent or desire to hurt anybody.

bottom line:

Train safe means NO MIND-ALTERING substances before training.

Marc Abrams

Johann Baptista
02-10-2010, 12:42 PM
To help purify the senses and interpret the higher self, one requires fresh clean air, water, forests, mountains and on occasions solitude. Practice Aikido rigorously while youthful; contemplate with inner vision on all your experience when aged.
Marijuana has its place with human lives, not with those intent on the way of Aiki.
For me I would say NO! .

Agreed. Very well said. The less of the stench of modern man that can be eliminated the better. Only Wilderness is purity, for it was made by the hand of the Creator and the Kami. The pollution, drugs, addiction to comfort, overuse of technology... all of this draws us away from the source.

:ai:
:ki:
:do:

- Johann

mathewjgano
02-10-2010, 12:55 PM
I don't think it has anything to do with the art per se. I mean, why should the fact that you're on an "aikido journey", so-called, be the reason why you question whether or not it is appropriate to smoke marijuana? The question makes no sense to me. It's like asking, "Should you eat pork rinds if you're a CPA?"

I agree. Or "should you drink whiskey..." It all depends on what you want from it I suppose.
I'm guessing the OP thinks of smoking marijuana as at least a quasi-spiritual experience and also considers Aikido to be and of course is then wondering if the two somehow are inapropriate together. In the sense that smoking anything is bad for you, I'm guessing it's not ideal. As for the mind-altering or potentially spiritual quality associated with it I can't guess (though I agree with everyone with regard to being on the mat: it's not appropriate). Personally I think the ability to induce natural highs is far more useful. Not only is it a LOT cheaper, but the ability to induce your own "zone" or "trance" is a lot more self-sufficient than relying on some external substance. Personally I look to practices like Aikido to teach me better self-control and self-awareness and the best approach for me has come from removing things like marijuana from the process. I used to enjoy taking a toke and swinging the bokken around, but any of the small leaps I may have ever made in Aikido came during times when I was not high.

Kevin Leavitt
02-10-2010, 02:15 PM
everything seems to come at a cost. Some are greater than others. I suppose each individual needs to figure that out for him/herself.

That said, don't show up high, drunk, or otherwise in any other state that causes you impairment of your senses and expect me to practice with you.

That includes using a cell phone or texting while you are practicing.

David Orange
02-10-2010, 02:57 PM
That said, don't show up high, drunk, or otherwise in any other state that causes you impairment of your senses and expect me to practice with you.

Actually, in Japan, there's quite a tradition of occasionally training while blasted drunk--at least once or twice--so that you know what your performance will be like if you're ever attacked after you've been to one of those obligatory gut-busting drunk-fests the Japanese have almost every night after work.

I trained with a prison guard for a long time and one night he showed up stinking drunk. I was a bit frightened of training with him in that state but fortunately, he didn't get unusually aggressive. Mostly, he seemed to hover on the edge of puking and he sweated a lot and clearly didn't enjoy the process.

Another time, Mochizuki Sensei invited me to drink some sake with a guest of his very shortly before class was to begin. I always led the first hour of class in those days, so I declined but Sensei actually seemed a bit disappointed. Maybe he just wanted to see me puke!!! I did a lot of bowing and gomen nasaiing and went and got my gi and got ready for class.

And as I mentioned in another thread where this was discussed, I remember reading Ellis Amdur's comments somewhere about getting stoned with Terry Dobson (at the Bond Street Dojo, I think) and training together. I'm not recommending anything, but maybe we should solicit his thoughts on this.

Best to all.

David

lbb
02-10-2010, 03:29 PM
Training in any athletic endeavor when you are impaired/under the influence of any mind-altering substance is potentially dangerous not only to the person, but to anybody who trains with that person.

But that wasn't the question.

eyrie
02-10-2010, 05:21 PM
I don't think it has anything to do with the art per se. I mean, why should the fact that you're on an "aikido journey", so-called, be the reason why you question whether or not it is appropriate to smoke marijuana? The question makes no sense to me. It's like asking, "Should you eat pork rinds if you're a CPA?" Exactly. It's an irrational question. Besides, if one wanted to take a "journey", or a "trip", Mary-Jo wouldn't exactly be the drug of choice.

So, smoke, drink, and eat crispy pork rinds if you must - preferably in the comfort of your own adobe. It's your choice. What sort of "journey" do you want to experience?

George S. Ledyard
02-10-2010, 06:57 PM
But that wasn't the question.

But that is the answer...

Walter Martindale
02-11-2010, 05:18 AM
But that is the answer...

Too true.

I went to WATCH a judo practice after a few beers, rather than participate... because of the beers... The sensei said something along the lines of "good choice - you puke on the mats because you've been drinking and you wipe it up with your gi, and then wear it on your way out."..

When you're training you need ALL of your senses...
W

Michael Fitzgerald
02-11-2010, 06:01 AM
ttht

should I..!?
no man- no, I should not.

did you mean to ask if you should?

coz I mean, if you thought that was a well phrased question, then yes perhaps you should! just don't try going to class like that.

also, fail troll is fail. ;)

lbb
02-11-2010, 08:04 AM
But that is the answer...

It's the answer to something, that's for sure!

(and 42 to you too :D )

Eugene Leslie
02-11-2010, 09:44 AM
No.

THC will blight your training whilst you delude yourself and dream of bullshit.

In otherwords you won't progress and you will practice insincerity.

Read the previous posts concerning the dangers to yourself and others in the dojo when under the influence.

It was said that often Osensei's students were actually afraid of being killed when being uke to Osensei. Aikido does not suffer lapses in attention.

mathewjgano
02-11-2010, 11:58 AM
THC will blight your training whilst you delude yourself and dream of bullshit.
Perhaps, but that seems a bit presumptuous to me. Living in the Pac NW I've known a lot of potheads, indeed whole families of potheads, and they're no more deluded than anyone else...so far as I can tell at least.

Read the previous posts concerning the dangers to yourself and others in the dojo when under the influence.
Aikido does not suffer lapses in attention.
It's this last part that makes me inclined to say people shouldn't mix the two. Then again though, sometimes a person will show up to training dog tired and folks don't think twice about it. I remember a study that was done in the U.K. comparing the effects of sleeplessness, marijuana, and alcohol on operating a car. Marijuana was the safest option of the three.
http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=4270
Now, as with driving a car, you're taking a very real risk if you decide to imbibe, and that is not fair to the people around you in my opinion, but I also want to set a little perspective. Compared to the very socially accepted alcohol, marijuana is slight in its effects.
Ok...devil's advocate signing out.
Matt

Marc Abrams
02-11-2010, 02:13 PM
It's the answer to something, that's for sure!

(and 42 to you too :D )

Mary:

On anybody's "journey" in life, they are basically entitled to do anything that they would like to do to themselves. I frankly do not care if that includes "consensual" relationships with "mature" live stock :eek: !

That being said, that Aikido "journey" will involved practicing with another person. At that point in time, NO MIND ALTERING SUBSTANCES should be used by any one party, due to the REAL risks that are entailed by doing so. If two consensual adults want to practice with one or both of them being stoned on anything, then let them do it in the privacy of their own abodes. Maybe Cheech and Chong run a dojo for all I know. In my school, the rules are clear and well defined. I have seen the bad side of when that policy is not enforced. This is of course my opinion based upon my life, which has included in participating in a wealth of mind-altering substances when I was much younger. Even then, I never mixed training with partying. When I did, it was reserved for training with a MIGHTY hangover and I did that very rarely, because of how much training like that was a bad experience!

Marc Abrams

Aikibu
02-11-2010, 02:31 PM
#1. No

#2. http://newsrealblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/dont-feed-the-troll.jpg

Perfect...A troll question to begin with IMO.

William Hazen

lbb
02-11-2010, 08:41 PM
That being said, that Aikido "journey" will involved practicing with another person. At that point in time, NO MIND ALTERING SUBSTANCES should be used by any one party, due to the REAL risks that are entailed by doing so.

Let's be clear about what we're talking about. The question was about smoking dope while "on an Aikido journey". That's a somewhat ambiguous phrase, but I think a fair interpretation might be "while living a life in which one studies Aikido." Everyone, including yourself, is insisting on answering a question that has not been asked, which is, "Should you get high and then get on the mat?" The result has been a chorus of "hell no", which I don't disagree with, but it's really got nothing to do with the question that was asked.

Marc Abrams
02-11-2010, 09:27 PM
Let's be clear about what we're talking about. The question was about smoking dope while "on an Aikido journey". That's a somewhat ambiguous phrase, but I think a fair interpretation might be "while living a life in which one studies Aikido." Everyone, including yourself, is insisting on answering a question that has not been asked, which is, "Should you get high and then get on the mat?" The result has been a chorus of "hell no", which I don't disagree with, but it's really got nothing to do with the question that was asked.

Mary:

Let me be clear: READ MY FIRST PARAGRAPH. Here let me help you out: "On anybody's "journey" in life, they are basically entitled to do anything that they would like to do to themselves. I frankly do not care if that includes "consensual" relationships with "mature" live stock !"

I do not give a damn what a person does to his/herself in a private manner, which includes smoking pot, as long as in doing so, does not create an undue burden on others (eg.- broke junkie who uses the merry-go-round of multiple detox's at the taxpayer's expense).

I do not necessarily "read" the thread like you do. Let us agree to read different things into the thread, while agreeing on the importance of training in a safe environment.

Marc Abrams

ilia rudnitskiy
02-11-2010, 11:35 PM
^clearly then, if we all agree about not smoking pot before practicing with others at your dojo, why don't we discuss other aspects of the "journey in Aikido" rather than arguing...

Tinyboy344
02-12-2010, 12:07 AM
... I was gonna take ukemi too. But then I got high. Now my arms get all jacked up and I know why...Why man?.... cuz I got high cuz I got high cuz I got high....

Nikopol
02-12-2010, 07:52 AM
... I was gonna take ukemi too. But then I got high. Now my arms get all jacked up and I know why...Why man?.... cuz I got high cuz I got high cuz I got high....

La-da-da da da da da....

I would say that if you have to ask the answer is no.
Cannabis can make one move and respond well, but if you have a
cultural belief that it is "wrong" it is going to be an impediment.

I you were using it for a medical condition, I can understand it, if not, best to avoid it. I know a lot of members will give you flack for even asking the question, they are also culturally biased against it.

So, if you need to ask, then no, don't use it.

lbb
02-12-2010, 08:13 AM
^clearly then, if we all agree about not smoking pot before practicing with others at your dojo, why don't we discuss other aspects of the "journey in Aikido" rather than arguing...

That was kind of my point. Sorry people got het up about it.

bulevardi
02-12-2010, 08:28 AM
Sometimes I should drink coffee before training.
Just to have to power (Ki) to keep me awake when concentrating while watching the sensei's techniques

Michael Fitzgerald
02-12-2010, 09:31 AM
This thread seems to be going in the direction of intoxication Vs Aikido training.

does that still qualify as a valid part of the 'spiritual' board Jun?
Personally- if I may be so bold, I think not.

ninjaqutie
02-12-2010, 10:54 AM
Uck... I can't say what you should do... but I will not EVER touch that or any other drug for that matter. I have seen what drugs do to people first hand. No thanks...

Ali B
02-12-2010, 07:26 PM
If you want to and its not harming others - why are people so concerned? From a spitiual perspective, you will already know the answer. A lot of judgemental people out there, obviously living perfect lives. :rolleyes:

Aikibu
02-12-2010, 08:04 PM
If you want to and its not harming others - why are people so concerned? From a spitiual perspective, you will already know the answer. A lot of judgemental people out there, obviously living perfect lives. :rolleyes:

The biggest Fallacy ever is that you don't harm others...

Over a thousand innocent people have died in the border towns of Mexico this year so that some folks can use harmless drugs...

Every choice a person makes with regards to using 'harmless" drugs should be mindful of the real cost of their choices. That is the proper spiritual context IMO.

William Hazen

Nikopol
02-12-2010, 08:21 PM
Uck... I can't say what you should do... but I will not EVER touch that or any other drug for that matter. I have seen what drugs do to people first hand. No thanks...

If you see what I mean, you are getting a lot of emotional reaction to your question. While I agree that Cannabis should not be abused, it should not be lumped together with manufactured narcotics or even prescription pharmaceuticals. And as to a previous poster who made a comment about Aikido being designed to free you from "Modern technology" or something like that, it should be noted that Cannabis is a naturally occurring medicinal herb that predates modern medicine.

And so it should be treated as such, it should not be used "recreationally"; as I stated, if you have to ask, don't go to the dojo under the influence.

Let me also go slightly off-topic, for a good cause here. There is a current medical "fad" of prescribing anti-anxiety medications for a variety of real and concocted "conditions". These drugs have been documented to cause or worsen psychosis. No doubt many of the posters in this thread would not object to Aikidoka showing up for training under the influence of these pharmaceuticals.

I generally suggest Aikido as an alternative to this sort of treatment. In my experience, Aikido training has a profound effect on mental as well as physical health.

It is absolutely correct that dependence on "drugs" leads to negative states. But better that we emphasize that Aikido training is a higher high than any chemical, when one starts to develop ki, and I personally consider it the closest thing to a panacea.

Johann Baptista
02-12-2010, 09:10 PM
And as to a previous poster who made a comment about Aikido being designed to free you from "Modern technology" or something like that, it should be noted that Cannabis is a naturally occurring medicinal herb that predates modern medicine.

I believe I am the poster you are referring to. Lets just make an amendment here; I never said Aikido was designed to free anyone from modern technology. I said overuse of technology draws us away from the source. The source means nature. And none of that had anything to do with cannabis; it was on a completely unrelated note. I agree that cannabis is a powerful medicinal herb, but I simply don't think using it for the sole purpose of altering your mind is a very natural practice, like you. And... it has many health problems.
- Johann

Nikopol
02-12-2010, 09:50 PM
I believe I am the poster you are referring to. Lets just make an amendment here; I never said Aikido was designed to free anyone from modern technology. I said overuse of technology draws us away from the source. The source means nature. And none of that had anything to do with cannabis; it was on a completely unrelated note. I agree that cannabis is a powerful medicinal herb, but I simply don't think using it for the sole purpose of altering your mind is a very natural practice, like you. And... it has many health problems.
- Johann

Thanks, Johann,

I also agree wholeheartedly about the overuse of technology and the misuse of substances. The source is nature, and isn't amazing how little people understand about one of nature's most powerful substances, air. That's the beauty of Aikido and Kokyu power!! :)

JohnDavis
02-13-2010, 12:35 AM
In a word no.

Not that I have anything against Marijuana, I just think it is a recreational thing. I certainly would not want to practice with anyone who is high. As to off the mat....Well "pot heads" are less likely to get into bar fights than drunks, but experience has taught me that any kind of intoxication can interfere with proper judgment (discernment) and can cause the trust of the individual to come into question. Nobody with slurred speech has ever made a persuasive argument for peace.

In general I have found that for someone not well versed in a Shamanic tradition and experienced with alternate states of mind brought on without intoxicants will not gain anything using them in their practice. In the cultures that use peyote and other hallucinogens, even mild ones like pot, restrict them only to well trained shamans. There are good and valid reasons for this. We should respect those cultures and their reasoning. They have had thousands of years of experience with this stuff.

Keep a clear head and things will appear much clearer to you.

Laurens Schaberg
02-13-2010, 06:43 AM
A fellow aikidoist once showed up smelling like marihuana because he slept over at a friend who smoked. Though he doesn't smoke weed, he was 'shunned' for the rest of that class and it did do some damage to his reputation. Even though you yourself may not be judgmental about drugs, others might and isolate you. Some people may act cool and say: 'if they isolate me because of the smell, they're not worth my time ' but if your partner dislikes the smell, and you're the source of that smell, then I can understand. Personally I think he should have refrained from training when he opened his bag and realized that it would become an awkward situation,

bulevardi
02-13-2010, 07:41 AM
Over a thousand innocent people have died in the border towns of Mexico this year so that some folks can use harmless drugs...

Every choice a person makes with regards to using 'harmless" drugs should be mindful of the real cost of their choices. That is the proper spiritual context IMO.


On the other hand... hundreds of people at Inbev Brewery lost their jobs because of people stopped drinking beer, which is alcohol(drug). In that case: keep consuming alcohol so people won't lose their jobs. :)

bulevardi
02-13-2010, 07:44 AM
Actually, could Aikido be an addiction at some time? A drug that keeps you going back to the tatami. A drug that keeps your Ki flow through your body.
A drug that kills harmless uke's.

mathewjgano
02-13-2010, 12:21 PM
The biggest Fallacy ever is that you don't harm others...

Over a thousand innocent people have died in the border towns of Mexico this year so that some folks can use harmless drugs...

Every choice a person makes with regards to using 'harmless" drugs should be mindful of the real cost of their choices. That is the proper spiritual context IMO.

William Hazen

In so many ways it's like the prohibition of alcohol: I say legalize it and tax it in order to diminish the effects of the black market. I agree with your point that it's important to consider the fullest range of effects, but simply put, many folks don't harm others with their choice to imbibe. Of course, that all depends on where it's coming from. It also depends on the individual's choice on whether or not to act responsibly in other matters.
I'm always shocked at how against marijuana people are, while at the same time holding no problems with booze. Alcohol kills very easily; marijuana doesn't. Alcohol impairs inhibitions and motor skills; marijuana doesn't, or if it does it's a minute fraction by comparison.
I've said about all I can think to say on this subject so I'll probably quit after this. I don't like playing devil's advocate for things like this because I would hate to be the one to compel a person to do something they could later regret. On the other hand it was discovering the BS surrounding anti-pot ads which caused a huge contempt in me for the war on drugs and which caused me to question other far more valid warnings. Those ads did more harm than good in my neck of the woods. So, with that in mind I'd just like to finish with the idea that in all things moderation is key and that personally, as a guy who smoked pot regularly for well over a decade, I don't think it will make much of a positive effect on anyone's aikido training...no more so than going out and getting drunk will, at any rate.
Take care folks and be careful!
Matt

Aikibu
02-13-2010, 12:54 PM
In so many ways it's like the prohibition of alcohol: I say legalize it and tax it in order to diminish the effects of the black market. I agree with your point that it's important to consider the fullest range of effects, but simply put, many folks don't harm others with their choice to imbibe. Of course, that all depends on where it's coming from. It also depends on the individual's choice on whether or not to act responsibly in other matters.
I'm always shocked at how against marijuana people are, while at the same time holding no problems with booze. Alcohol kills very easily; marijuana doesn't. Alcohol impairs inhibitions and motor skills; marijuana doesn't, or if it does it's a minute fraction by comparison.
I've said about all I can think to say on this subject so I'll probably quit after this. I don't like playing devil's advocate for things like this because I would hate to be the one to compel a person to do something they could later regret. On the other hand it was discovering the BS surrounding anti-pot ads which caused a huge contempt in me for the war on drugs and which caused me to question other far more valid warnings. Those ads did more harm than good in my neck of the woods. So, with that in mind I'd just like to finish with the idea that in all things moderation is key and that personally, as a guy who smoked pot regularly for well over a decade, I don't think it will make much of a positive effect on anyone's aikido training...no more so than going out and getting drunk will, at any rate.
Take care folks and be careful!
Matt

I am with you Matt I say legalize too...Get rid of the Criminal Element...The USA is the largest consumer of hard drugs in the world...The Taliban various Mafias and Gangs all fund a majority of their criminal enterprises with drugs sold in the US...
With the largest prison population on the planet... two thirds of those for drug related offenses the US has lost the "war" on drugs...
Since the days of Richard Nixon the war on drugs has been a farce...It's time we start treating the disease and stop punishing people.

William Hazen

bulevardi
02-14-2010, 05:49 AM
Here in Belgium, it's allowed to use marihuana at home or to possess it in small quantities.
We are not allowed to deal in marihuana.
No one has problems with black market here or other issues of big criminality, etc...

In our neighbourcountry Netherlands, they sell marihuana legally in the local coffeeshops where you can use it in public too. There's not really a big problem with it.

Aikibu
02-14-2010, 11:32 AM
Here in Belgium, it's allowed to use marihuana at home or to possess it in small quantities.
We are not allowed to deal in marihuana.
No one has problems with black market here or other issues of big criminality, etc...

In our neighbourcountry Netherlands, they sell marihuana legally in the local coffeeshops where you can use it in public too. There's not really a big problem with it.

Thats the way it should be here...In our state of California we get to vote in November to legalize it.

http://democrats.assembly.ca.gov/members/a13/News_Room/Press/20100112AD13PR03.aspx

Back to the topic it I don't care what one does responsibly off the tatami it's really none of my business... but my point is there is no such thing as harming only yourself...Drug Use is one thing Drug Abuse another... harming yourself also hurts everyone in your life.. those who love you...your friends...The folks who share the road with you when you're high...Your workplace...Your Sempai and Kohei's ect.ect.

William Hazen

Johann Baptista
02-14-2010, 07:42 PM
In general I have found that for someone not well versed in a Shamanic tradition and experienced with alternate states of mind brought on without intoxicants will not gain anything using them in their practice. In the cultures that use peyote and other hallucinogens, even mild ones like pot, restrict them only to well trained shamans. There are good and valid reasons for this. We should respect those cultures and their reasoning. They have had thousands of years of experience with this stuff.

Keep a clear head and things will appear much clearer to you.

Let me make another amendment. I agree with you. If a mind-altering plant like Peyote is used in a mindful fashion, and not constantly, it can be a wonderful thing. I think that true shamans learned to use it as a stepping stone to higher mind sates, and once these states could be achieved without the drug, they abandoned them. This is not how it is in every culture; but I think that the spiritual stepping stone must be abandoned sometime. It is not in my power to dictate what kind of stepping stone is used. I would just rather not use a drug from the start, but hey, it could even be helpful. However, abuse of a drug for entertainment, like you mentioned, is a terrible thing.

-Johann

ninjaqutie
02-15-2010, 10:41 AM
If you see what I mean, you are getting a lot of emotional reaction to your question. While I agree that Cannabis should not be abused, it should not be lumped together with manufactured narcotics or even prescription pharmaceuticals.

If you grew up the way I did, then perhaps you would have an emotional response as well. I also never said that it should be lumped in with other drugs. I simply stated that I have no desire to try any drugs (other then properly prescribed and administered pharmaceuticals).

I won't go as far as to say that there are not medicinal uses for any of these drugs, because there are. People smoke marijuana for various reasons (and living in Oregon and working with police I can state first hand that this medicinal marijuana growers issue causes a whole lot of problems), cocaine is used for nasal surgeries, etc.

I didn't say what any of you should do. I'm simply stating that you will not catch me near that stuff.

delliott
02-16-2010, 12:12 PM
ttht

Practicing true Budo should be all the "high" that you need, my friend....

darrenbrooks
02-19-2010, 05:07 PM
Hello. This is my first post, and being a doctor of oriental medicine, as well as a long time Aikido student, this post caught my attention.

In my Chinese medicine practice, I treat several patients who have the attitude that smoking pot is not a big deal, and that it just relaxes them, helping them be more creative, or whatever.

In my experience, all these patients have a similar diagnosis, that of Dampness, or rather, the pathological thickening of fluids in the lymph, blood and tissues. This condition leads to resistance for circulation and a feeling of heaviness and sluggishness, both in body and channel circulation of Qi (or rather, Ki).

In Chinese herbal medicine, we use cannabis seeds (which I believe have properties similar to the leaves, although a bit less moistening quality) in a specific way, to moisten the intestines and to Nourish the Yin, which means to encourage the production of fluids to counteract tissue deterioration and inflammation (such as occurs in constipation in the elderly, or after a febrile illness, for example).

Furthermore, the repeated use a substance to reduce stress begs the question, why is that stress occurring in the first place, and is the person evolving in their resolution of these issues, or simply seeking a way to adjust their experience so they can continue avoidance?

Not very Aikido-ish, I would say.

Garth Jones
02-19-2010, 11:25 PM
If somebody comes to my dojo drunk or high, they will get booted right out the door. Lack of good motor control and judgement leads to unsafe practice and there is no room for that.

Eugene Leslie
02-20-2010, 12:21 PM
Once again....no.

This thread has digressed into pro-pot/anti-pot.

I've been there done that and there's a reason Marijuana is illegal.

I don't like to think of kids using it during their important formative teen years.

It will mess with one's cognitive functions.

Learning anything while high on THC will be marred by delusions of progress and loss of short term memory.

All you "cool running" smoker's cannot refute that.

On a tropical island eating bananas and surfing sure...why not.
An eccentric professor or dedicated artist in the shadows. o.k.

But in THIS society, with my nephews and neices and
law-enforcement officers in the trenches I don't buy your "it's o.k." and "legalize it..man" crap.

jss
02-20-2010, 02:03 PM
In our neighbourcountry Netherlands, they sell marihuana legally in the local coffeeshops where you can use it in public too. There's not really a big problem with it.
There are some problems with it: the coffeeshops are allowed to sell marihuana, but they are not allowed to buy it. They're also not allowed to grow it in the quantities necessary to do enough business. So the growing of marihuana is for a large part in the hands of criminal organizations. This fact is then used by some people to argue in favor of banning marihuana again, ignoring the fact that the problem is the half-baked current policy. (None of this is in the law btw, it's just the current policy to allow the coffeeshops.)

lbb
02-20-2010, 05:27 PM
All you "cool running" smoker's cannot refute that.

Emphasis mine.

IMO, It doesn't improve the dialogue to take a "this is what I think, and if you don't agree with me 100%, this is what you are!" approach.

akiy
02-20-2010, 07:09 PM
Hi folks,

Let's try to steer the discussion back to being directly pertinent to aikido and the original topic. If you wish to discuss a more general topic, please do so in the Open Discussions (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14) forum.

Thanks,

-- Jun

wideawakedreamer
02-21-2010, 01:42 AM
Personally, I don't care if someone gets high, drunk, or both, in his/her free time. But during practice, I want a sober partner.

gregstec
02-21-2010, 06:35 PM
I have been trying to refrain from jumping in on this thread due to its obvious volatile topic, but since I spent my formative years in the 60's, I felt that Janis, Jimi, Jerry, as well as some other notable visionary's of that era, would say to this question: " What's your Point?"

So, "Farm Out, Right Arm, and Party on, Dude" (if you are scratching your head trying to figure out this last statement, you are obviously too young and need to spend some time in a 'head shop' getting a proper perspective on things) :D

Phil Van Treese
02-22-2010, 02:39 PM
With all the stuff out there about smoking and the various kinds of cancer, why would you want to destroy yourself slowly and risk cancer??? IF someone would walk into my dojo "High" or smelling of weed, leaving the dojo would be the fastest "trip" he'd ever have.

mathewjgano
02-22-2010, 04:01 PM
I have been trying to refrain from jumping in on this thread due to its obvious volatile topic, but since I spent my formative years in the 60's, I felt that Janis, Jimi, Jerry, as well as some other notable visionary's of that era, would say to this question: " What's your Point?"

So, "Farm Out, Right Arm, and Party on, Dude" (if you are scratching your head trying to figure out this last statement, you are obviously too young and need to spend some time in a 'head shop' getting a proper perspective on things) :D

Of course, the folks you listed all died from excess. If anything I would argue they're good examples of why not to do drugs because of the tendancy for many folks to be consumed by that which they consume (addictive/obsessive peronalities are particularly prone to this, of course). Their thinking was that drugs were a way of breaking through a lame status quo mindset, and I would guess it probably helped in some capacity. They can certainly create powerful emotional experiences which can then lead to interesting results, some good, some bad, depending on the circumstances and the individual(s) involved. Where insight may have been gained I believe it is less a matter of the drug and more a matter of the wits of the individual, which to my mind points to the idea that drugs of any kind are essentially superfluous to the goal in mind, unless the goal is simply to get high.

A)I've been there done that and there's a reason Marijuana is illegal.
B)I don't like to think of kids using it during their important formative teen years.
C)It will mess with one's cognitive functions.
Learning anything while high on THC will be marred by delusions of progress and loss of short term memory.
D)All you "cool running" smoker's cannot refute that.
A) And what reason is it illegal...particularly while alcohol is not? My understanding is that it had to do with business interests, not health factors. Again, when compared to other controled substances, marijuana is extremely benign, but B) I agree completely that developing bodies shouldn't use it at all, regardless of the purpose.
C)I don't think it's so cut and dried as that though. Again let me be clear I'm not automatically condoning anything here. I think any drug use (e.g. alcohol, marijuana, etc.) is a personal choice that all people should be wary of, no matter how benign it appears. That said, I know musicians who have no problem remembering the new songs they learned while high on marijuana. I used to play chess while high without any noticeable problems...again, no more so than alcohol. These are activities which demand mental and physical accuity in fairly significant amounts. Also, short-term memory loss isn't absolute. I remember quite a bit from my stoner years and I was stoned a lot...too much even. I think this is a function of how much one chooses to indulge in: in all things too much is too much. I would suggest that regular use is probably not very healthy.
D) I'm not trying to refute your thinking here so much as trying to offer an alternative point of view for folks to correct or otherwise add to.
I understand that this thread is about how this should or shouldn't be applied to Aikidoists, but I believe that the thing itself has to be discussed if people are going to make their own personal choices. Simply put, I know pot-smokers who are every bit as sharp-minded and capable as non-smokers, so i don't see how it can be so simple as "it's ok," or, "it's not ok." I think different people will respond differently and as long as it doesn't impinge upon other people I don't believe in telling people what to do, which is the only reason I've suggested there might be positive results as well as the obvious (at least to me) negatives.
Anyhow, FWIW.
Take care of yourselves,
Matthew

Fred Little
02-22-2010, 04:04 PM
With all the stuff out there about smoking and the various kinds of cancer, why would you want to destroy yourself slowly and risk cancer??? IF someone would walk into my dojo "High" or smelling of weed, leaving the dojo would be the fastest "trip" he'd ever have.

To quote George Carlin, "Have you ever noticed that their stuff is shit and your shit is stuff?"

But seriously, the most recent scientific studies on marijuana indicate that it may actually reduce the risk of cancer. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070417193338.htm)

While best practice is to be fully lucid when you train, the most reckless and dangerous people I've ever encountered on the mat had both very negative attitudes about drug use and no regard whatsoever for their partners' bodies.

So I'm sticking with "case-by-case."

Best,

FL

DH
02-22-2010, 06:13 PM
Two of the best guys I used to roll with liked to get high, both before and after practice. One was also a Greco Roman guy who used to love doing soft wrestling while high or after a few beers.
While we trained very seriously most of the time, we trained with a buzz on in so many living rooms, wedding receptions, parties, and parking lots I lost count. Oh the stories our loved ones could tell!!

I consider full contact jujutsu safer than aikido practice anyway. Why, because you're not giving away body parts or your whole frame to be thrown. Having someone fight to get you while you fight back is much safer, for me.

Anyway, while I don't smoke weed, I have trained/played with some veeery well known men while drunk.:cool: and we had a blast. It's another way of testing to me. Then again, I've also trained weapons in a raging blizzard two feet deep and blowing sideways, outside up and down hills, at night by moonlight, I've also gone all out while drunk (with permission from my partners). It's fun to test and play.

So, while -in general- I am all for not allowing intoxication during training, I'm just not much for sweating the little things. I agree with Fred, that some of the worst examples of Budo I have ever met were very legalistic, and wound so tight you...well, that's for another day.
Cheers
Dan

Aikibu
02-22-2010, 07:52 PM
T
While best practice is to be fully lucid when you train, the most reckless and dangerous people I've ever encountered on the mat had both very negative attitudes about drug use and no regard whatsoever for their partners' bodies.

So I'm sticking with "case-by-case."

Best,

FL

With all due respect Fred. :)

Am I to infer that one always goes with the other?

A little too much duality for me. :)

I know folks who love puppies and bunny rabbits who would rip your arm out of the socket, and I also know DEA agents who are very gentle souls in practice.

William Hazen

Fred Little
02-23-2010, 07:48 AM
With all due respect Fred. :)

Am I to infer that one always goes with the other?

A little too much duality for me. :)

I know folks who love puppies and bunny rabbits who would rip your arm out of the socket, and I also know DEA agents who are very gentle souls in practice.

William Hazen

Why thank you, kind sir. Actually, I'm not real big on the dualism either, so I wouldn't recommend inferring an entire theory of operation out of a counter-example or three.

In fact, when I think over the list of "most dangerous people I've ever worked with," among the names at the top of the list are a macrobiotic vegetarian and a Quaker, neither of whom smoked weed or drank. And I've worked with at least one very nice DEA agent who I would trust on the mat without reservation.

What I take from this is the notion that substance ingestion is not the only route to a condition of intoxication and heedlessness that is dangerous to others, and I'm back to "case-by-case."

FL

Aikibu
02-23-2010, 11:37 AM
Why thank you, kind sir. Actually, I'm not real big on the dualism either, so I wouldn't recommend inferring an entire theory of operation out of a counter-example or three.

In fact, when I think over the list of "most dangerous people I've ever worked with," among the names at the top of the list are a macrobiotic vegetarian and a Quaker, neither of whom smoked weed or drank. And I've worked with at least one very nice DEA agent who I would trust on the mat without reservation.

What I take from this is the notion that substance ingestion is not the only route to a condition of intoxication and heedlessness that is dangerous to others, and I'm back to "case-by-case."

FL

Understood :) I am case by case moment to moment kind of guy myself. :)

William Hazen

gregstec
02-23-2010, 11:51 AM
unless the goal is simply to get high.




All nice points to the conversation, and many folks from the 60s' presented a very highbrow explanation of their actions - however, you hit the nail on the head with the above comment - it was a very simple goal that most obtained often - as been said before: "if you remember the 60s, you weren't there" :)

Eugene Leslie
02-24-2010, 10:20 AM
IMO, It doesn't improve the dialogue to take a "this is what I think, and if you don't agree with me 100%, this is what you are!" approach.

(This isn't dialogue either soapbox lady).

Mr. Gano;

You seem like a likable guy by your posts I've seen on different threads and you debate well.
....I am not saying alcohol is better, (I totally agree with the economic conspiracy theory's concerning alcohol and tobacco taxation)....or that the friends I have that smoke dope are anything less than...I agree with alot of your points...what I'm saying is just MY opinion but it's shared by the Law of Canada.

I'm saying if one wishes to search themselves spiritually do it where it's not illegal and doesn't present influence to others.
My buddies that still smoke dope know it's illegal and keep it well hidden from their kids but my opinions and values differ...
If you want to do LSD like James Coburn with his psychistrist it's a controlled lawful environment..(at the time at least).

If you want to do mesacalin with a bonifide Peruvian shaman... it's lawful and controlled.

Peyote with a medicine man in Mexico...same thing.

Mary Jane?...head to Amsterdam or Jamaica.

In THIS country the definition of the law is "not hurting another" directly or indirectly. Not all drug dealers are cute Cheech and Chong types and most sell other, harder drugs. Cops are in the line of fire and YES I agree some people can handle THC just fine but for every 5 easy breezy potheads there are 95 drop-outs and hard drug users that inadvertantly used pot as a gateway to other crap and lost their way.

Cheers and God Bless....

Aikibu
02-24-2010, 12:29 PM
In THIS country the definition of the law is "not hurting another" directly or indirectly. Not all drug dealers are cute Cheech and Chong types and most sell other, harder drugs. Cops are in the line of fire and YES I agree some people can handle THC just fine but for every 5 easy breezy potheads there are 95 drop-outs and hard drug users that inadvertantly used pot as a gateway to other crap and lost their way.

Cheers and God Bless....

If you were to reverse your stats it would be much closer to the truth in my experience..and to me it is an experiential kind of thing...If casual pot users could tag along with a kilo of dope and experience all the crap that goes on to get them their 'harmless" high they might think twice about the real meaning behind the cause and effect of "harmless"...

So smoking Dope and Doing Aikido is no different to me than asking if snorting coke will make your sex life better or drinking to excess will make you a better writer.

Been There Done That... and all it took was sitting still for me to discover that reality is more awesome than any experience I could try to "manufacture."

That being said (as Roshi always used to say) "being present may be the hardest practice you'll ever do in your life but it is definitely far beyond anything you could ever imagine." :D LOL

William Hazen

C. David Henderson
02-24-2010, 02:33 PM
If casual pot users could tag along with a kilo of dope and experience all the crap that goes on to get them their 'harmless" high they might think twice about the real meaning behind the cause and effect of "harmless".

Q: How much of this "crap" is the result of prohibition? Doesn't cause-and-effect includes more than those involved as grower-middle-man-seller-buyer-user in the black market, and also include those who declared it illegal? Which, if any, of the truly-objectionable-and-don't-tell-me-it's-none-of-my-business consequences from huffing weed DO NOT stem from prohibition?

Say'n it's wrong (as some other posters have) doesn't mean it makes sense to declare it a crime, IMHO.

But we digress; getting back to the troll-y OP that got folks all wound up:

So smoking Dope and Doing Aikido is no different to me than asking if snorting coke will make your sex life better or drinking to excess will make you a better writer.

Sums it up nicely, for me. Quite nicely.

Been There Done That... and all it took was sitting still for me to discover that reality is more awesome than any experience I could try to "manufacture."

Well, that makes one squirm...:o

mathewjgano
02-24-2010, 02:59 PM
Mr. Gano;
You seem like a likable guy by your posts I've seen on different threads and you debate well.
I deeply appreciate hearing that, thank you! I regularly feel uncomfortable with my posts here, and for a variety of reasons, but, well, thank you again.

what I'm saying is just MY opinion but it's shared by the Law of Canada.
Fair enough.

I'm saying if one wishes to search themselves spiritually do it where it's not illegal and doesn't present influence to others.
Good point. There are ways to experience things that are probably a bit more authentic and are safer/kinder to oneself or others. Also, per my experiences: I was the rare sort who didn't make the decision to smoke lightly. It was only after some focused study that I made the decision...and interestingly enough I STILL went through a period of time where I enjoyed it more than I should have. It can be easy to get caught up in a culture, even for a guy who might have a great track record of not falling for peer pressure like I did.

In THIS country the definition of the law is "not hurting another" directly or indirectly. Not all drug dealers are cute Cheech and Chong types and most sell other, harder drugs. Cops are in the line of fire and YES I agree some people can handle THC just fine but for every 5 easy breezy potheads there are 95 drop-outs and hard drug users that inadvertantly used pot as a gateway to other crap and lost their way.

Cheers and God Bless....
Having grown up in an area that was/is rife with drugs I can appreciate where you're coming from here. Almost every user I've known (of whatever variety), started when they were in their teens or younger (with alcohol and tobacco first). That isn't good. Like William, my experiences don't quite fit your 1 in 20 remark about drop-outs, etc., but I have noticed a gradual shift in the culture. Pop culture has created a thug-life mentality even within the "soft" marijuana world.
Been There Done That...reality is more awesome than any experience I could try to "manufacture."
I agree whole-heartedly! In fact I was just sitting here looking at my 8-month-old and felt like I was about to burst from the immense feeling of bliss. Moments like that have clearly been the most spiritual highs I've ever experienced, hands down.

Keith Larman
02-24-2010, 03:32 PM
What a funny world we live in ...

I've had friends suggest marijuana for some recurring health issues I've had. Severe muscle spasms, myopathy, etc. I don't because I worry about the example I set for my child. Not because I think there is anything wrong with the drug for the purpose -- but because it is illegal (on some level at least -- I can't quite figure out California's drug laws nowadays) which creates a problem for me in terms of being consistent and setting a good example for the kid.

But that said... I have two bottles in my medicine cabinet right now. A powerful codeine tablet for when the pain is really bad. I could *easily* get to like that stuff too much. I also have Soma for the spasms at night when things go bad. That one I'm told people have trouble with -- I don't quite get that as it just puts me to sleep and I can't function any longer, but I do recognize that it is also a problem drug. Perfectly legal. Powerful. Socially "acceptable" for me to be taking.

So I have two very powerful drugs that are by all accounts more powerful and both easily abused. Condoned and appropriate. But I hesitate to use another drug that would arguably be less potent and might actually help more. That I could in theory just grow for myself in my backyard.

What a screwy world...

mathewjgano
02-24-2010, 04:24 PM
...

So I have two very powerful drugs that are by all accounts more powerful and both easily abused. Condoned and appropriate. But I hesitate to use another drug that would arguably be less potent and might actually help more. That I could in theory just grow for myself in my backyard.

What a screwy world...

I was just about to post something similar...and I suppose I'm still about to, now that I think about it:
The over the counter cold medicine I recently took for my congestion was every bit as mind-altering as marijuana; more so, by my reckoning.

lbb
02-24-2010, 06:03 PM
(This isn't dialogue either soapbox lady).

Mr. Gano;

Why quote me if you aren't going to speak to me?

Michael Hackett
02-25-2010, 03:47 AM
I've some experience with weed; bought it, was involved in selling it, sent people to jail for stems and seeds in the old days, written citations for less than an ounce, attended the funerals of eight guys who died in a helicopter crash doing counterdrug operations and had a friend kidnapped, tortured and murdered in Mexico. I've come to the conclusion that the greatest evil involved is in the prohibition. I would vastly prefer that most of our dollars went to prevention and treatment and the remainder to enforcement.

All that said, I don't want to train with anyone who is loaded on any substance - legal or illegal. Have a beer or whatever you choose after class, but not before. I don't want you flying my airplane loaded, performing surgery on me, fixing the brakes on my truck or installing the throttle on my Lexus loaded either.

Aikibu
02-25-2010, 10:21 AM
Folks...Like I said before...I am voting to decriminalize Ganja in November (That is If we still have a State by then...:) )

While it is true that much of the "harm" done by Ganja can be found in it's prohibition... My point was Everything I do has an effect and unless I am mindful of my actions I can cause great harm engaging in so called "harmless" activities...

Heck... Why do you think I love Aikido? :)

So again while smoking Ganja may increase "Rastamon Vibrations Yeah"...for your Aikido...Remember the true cost you are paying for your "enlightenment."

William Hazen

lbb
02-25-2010, 12:02 PM
So again while smoking Ganja may increase "Rastamon Vibrations Yeah"...for your Aikido...Remember the true cost you are paying for your "enlightenment."

Very nice. Do you feel the same about people who eat pork?

You know...I'm just going to come out and say this. I find this offensive, and I'm not just talking about William's dig above, but at a lot of what's gone on in this thread. I'm not a Rasta and I don't smoke anything, but I just don't like the way that the anti-marijuana people in this thread have consistently labeled, mischaracterized, ridiculed and demonized anyone who doesn't toe their party line. And ya know what, smileys don't fix it. Sorry, but they don't.

The post that started this thread was a silly toss-off: "should you smoke marijuana on your aikido journey". Who knows what that even means? It's somewhat open to interpretation, yet so many people in this thread made assumptions, ranging from "This person thinks it's fine to train while high" to "this person has no problems with criminal behavior" to "this person is smoking for 'enlightenment' *snicker*" to "this person is like a little child, and so I will lecture him/her like a little child about all the dangers of marijuana, which I know all about and which he/she could not possibly know anything about" to "this person is a member of a religion that I consider laughable and have no problems mocking in public". Oh, that little line was a perfect strawman -- and y'all went to town on it.

There are a lot of things that go into having respect for other human beings. One is that you yourself are not all-wise, and that simply because someone else's choices (or what very, very, microscopically little you know about them from posts on the internet) do not make sense to you, that doesn't mean that you've got it sussed and they're an idiot. A little humility wouldn't do any harm, even on a subject that you believe to be cut and dried.

Aikibu
02-25-2010, 01:58 PM
Very nice. Do you feel the same about people who eat pork?

With all due respect we have a saying Mary...Drop your magnifying glass and pick up the mirror...I was attending Bob Marley Concerts and smoking Ganja back in 1976 To project your judgments on me about how I see people is more a reflection of you...Not a day goes by where I don't enjoy listening to Bob or some other Reggae musician and I certainly do not judge folks who smoke or drink or snort...That would be kind of hypocritical for me.LOL

You know...I'm just going to come out and say this. I find this offensive, and I'm not just talking about William's dig above, but at a lot of what's gone on in this thread. I'm not a Rasta and I don't smoke anything, but I just don't like the way that the anti-marijuana people in this thread have consistently labeled, mischaracterized, ridiculed and demonized anyone who doesn't toe their party line. And ya know what, smileys don't fix it. Sorry, but they don't.

Sorry you find the molehill offensive but I personally do not see a mountain here...Again

The post that started this thread was a silly toss-off: "should you smoke marijuana on your aikido journey". Who knows what that even means? It's somewhat open to interpretation, yet so many people in this thread made assumptions, ranging from "This person thinks it's fine to train while high" to "this person has no problems with criminal behavior" to "this person is smoking for 'enlightenment' *snicker*" to "this person is like a little child, and so I will lecture him/her like a little child about all the dangers of marijuana, which I know all about and which he/she could not possibly know anything about" to "this person is a member of a religion that I consider laughable and have no problems mocking in public". Oh, that little line was a perfect strawman -- and y'all went to town on it.

There are a lot of things that go into having respect for other human beings. One is that you yourself are not all-wise, and that simply because someone else's choices (or what very, very, microscopically little you know about them from posts on the internet) do not make sense to you, that doesn't mean that you've got it sussed and they're an idiot. A little humility wouldn't do any harm, even on a subject that you believe to be cut and dried.

Thanks for the lesson in personal correctness. I completely understand where you're coming from.;)

William Hazen

Marie Noelle Fequiere
02-25-2010, 02:30 PM
The martial arts are a way of life. One is supposed to practice the same values on and off the mat. Anything that is bad on the mat is also bad off the mat, and for the same reasons.
That's my opinion.

C. David Henderson
02-25-2010, 02:36 PM
So, if I understand you, if it would be "bad" to joke around and make noise during practice, it is bad to joke around or make noise when you're at a party?

lbb
02-25-2010, 02:38 PM
Sorry you find the molehill offensive but I personally do not see a mountain here...Again

Oh yeah, four pages of "molehill".

mathewjgano
02-26-2010, 12:58 PM
I noticed as a smoker my neck muscles and my solar plexus area got rather tight or otherwise seemed to be over-used. I wonder at how that might affect the ability to respond properly with aiki.
Any thoughts on how the smoking aspect might apply to breath power? I presume it would apply negatively.
In general terms I believe we're trying to develop a somewhat yang body state (expansive, etc. correct?). If pot is very yin, I can see how that might make it less useful to this aim.
...just off the top of my head. Anyone with a deeper yin/yang, etc. understanding care to add to or correct anything?

RED
03-02-2010, 09:00 PM
So, if I understand you, if it would be "bad" to joke around and make noise during practice, it is bad to joke around or make noise when you're at a party?

The Founder said to practice with a smile. ;)
Which I do... a little giggle every now and then never hurt my training either.
For a note I agree that mat imitates life and vise-verse.
On the mat there is time for serious concentration, and there is time for comradeship. Both are in the spirit of love.

RED
03-02-2010, 09:14 PM
I noticed as a smoker my neck muscles and my solar plexus area got rather tight or otherwise seemed to be over-used. I wonder at how that might affect the ability to respond properly with aiki.
Any thoughts on how the smoking aspect might apply to breath power? I presume it would apply negatively.
In general terms I believe we're trying to develop a somewhat yang body state (expansive, etc. correct?). If pot is very yin, I can see how that might make it less useful to this aim.
...just off the top of my head. Anyone with a deeper yin/yang, etc. understanding care to add to or correct anything?

I'm not sure what smoking can do to your nage, but I know what it can do to your uke.
Smoking causes a host of tissue issues in the circulatory system, as well as the muscular system. It lowers red blood cell production, your macrophages lower, and increases micro-vascular occlusion and tissue ischemia. Platelets in the tissues can also become hyper-adhesive, and inflexible. (most of these issues are caused by increase of carbon in the system, so weed is in trouble too here.:yuck: )

All in all, if you take a bad fall on your shoulder, or get twisted up on a projection, it will take a smoker almost 4times longer to heal those injuries. A statistic that grows after the age of 30 dramatically.

ouch

ninjaqutie
03-03-2010, 12:25 PM
If any of you follow uchi deshi's blog, he shows a video of a guy testing (2nd kyu maybe, I forget) after getting high. He didn't do too well......

Eric Winters
03-03-2010, 12:49 PM
I have not read this whole thread but I personally think this is a stupid question. I do not have a problem with people who smoke Mary Jane but you should not do it if your are in a position to possibly hurt someone, like training in martial art or driving.

Eric Winters

btw: I don't smoke this is just my opinion.

mathewjgano
03-04-2010, 02:09 PM
I'm not sure what smoking can do to your nage, but I know what it can do to your uke.
Smoking causes a host of tissue issues in the circulatory system, as well as the muscular system. It lowers red blood cell production, your macrophages lower, and increases micro-vascular occlusion and tissue ischemia. Platelets in the tissues can also become hyper-adhesive, and inflexible. (most of these issues are caused by increase of carbon in the system, so weed is in trouble too here.:yuck: )

All in all, if you take a bad fall on your shoulder, or get twisted up on a projection, it will take a smoker almost 4times longer to heal those injuries. A statistic that grows after the age of 30 dramatically.

ouch

Indeed! It's like I've told my friends: look in your bong; you're coating your lungs and cardiovascular system with the same stuff. Combine the information you provided with the Chinese Medicine perspective expressed a short while back and it seems pretty clear to me that the somewhat subtle nature of some of the effects are cause enough for serious caution, let alone with the very obvious effects on the lungs.

RED
03-04-2010, 08:13 PM
Indeed! It's like I've told my friends: look in your bong; you're coating your lungs and cardiovascular system with the same stuff. Combine the information you provided with the Chinese Medicine perspective expressed a short while back and it seems pretty clear to me that the somewhat subtle nature of some of the effects are cause enough for serious caution, let alone with the very obvious effects on the lungs.

Yeah, it is beyond your lungs. Anything you put in your body will effect the entire body. In some obvious ways, and in some not so obvious. Like that pound cake I just ate... :cool: the obvious effect on my hips, the not so obvious effect on my metabolism and glucose levels. :p

phitruong
03-05-2010, 10:18 AM
question: if you use marijuana to smoke a turkey or a rack of ribs, would it affect your aikido journey? :D

*prefer hickory smoked meself*

Michael Hackett
03-05-2010, 12:36 PM
Yes, you're very likely to eat the whole thing in one sitting and get too fat to train.

RED
03-06-2010, 07:58 PM
Yes, you're very likely to eat the whole thing in one sitting and get too fat to train.

.. you have no idea :(

brian p
03-15-2010, 02:53 AM
Here is a point to think about..

It seems like without exception everyone in this thread is talking about the actual, theoretical or supposed effects of smoking herb on your aikido/martial practice.

Maybe that's backwards.

Maybe instead of the weed (or other things) making aikido richer or more interesting..

... maybe doing aikido (ukemi or various solo practices) can be something to make your use of the herb more interesting.

I know lots of people who like to smoke up and do tai chi. Most of them also do tai chi when they aren't high. They aren't smoking weed to make their tai chi better (or worse). They enjoy smoking weed and the tai chi is something like music or sex that's fun to do while they are high.

I know people smoke up and do yoga and hiking for the same reason. The yoga or hiking is something fun to do which enriches their pot-smoking.

Ask not: will weed-smoking make my aikido better.. rather ask.. will aikido make my weed-smoking better? :D

RED
03-15-2010, 04:26 PM
Here is a point to think about..

It seems like without exception everyone in this thread is talking about the actual, theoretical or supposed effects of smoking herb on your aikido/martial practice.

Maybe that's backwards.

Maybe instead of the weed (or other things) making aikido richer or more interesting..

... maybe doing aikido (ukemi or various solo practices) can be something to make your use of the herb more interesting.

I know lots of people who like to smoke up and do tai chi. Most of them also do tai chi when they aren't high. They aren't smoking weed to make their tai chi better (or worse). They enjoy smoking weed and the tai chi is something like music or sex that's fun to do while they are high.

I know people smoke up and do yoga and hiking for the same reason. The yoga or hiking is something fun to do which enriches their pot-smoking.

Ask not: will weed-smoking make my aikido better.. rather ask.. will aikido make my weed-smoking better? :D

I would not trust my joints in the hands of a high nage.

We aren't listening to Rush while taking the archer's stance. We are being thrust many miles per hour in vulnerable situations, all in and out of the hands of those we trust with that vulnerability.

A high uke is no better. Some one who can't judge distance, has diminished ballance and slow nerve relay-reaction. They could rack their neck and never feel it. Injuries is what it comes down to.

Alfonso
03-15-2010, 05:07 PM
Some one who can't judge distance, has diminished ballance and slow nerve relay-reaction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyIPSLABM9E

sorry , couldnt resist.

C. David Henderson
03-16-2010, 08:41 AM
I would not trust my joints in the hands of a high nage.


Think they might get smoked?

RED
03-16-2010, 09:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyIPSLABM9E

sorry , couldnt resist.

Yeah...but that guy's Canadian! :cool:

RED
03-16-2010, 09:33 PM
Think they might get smoked?

wouldn't put it past some people :p

Michael Douglas
03-17-2010, 10:11 AM
I have no advice on whether to combine Aikido with smoking weed ... but I have observed something.
Those people who I definitely know to smoke or have smoked substantial amounts of weed over the years are now mostly incompetent/insane.
Just my observation of less than half a dozen folk.

I'm also sure it isn't as clear as cause & effect and that there are exceptions.
Just what I have observed : ALL of them = fudged up to some degree.

Hey! It's no where near as debilitating as alcohol though!

Adam Huss
03-21-2010, 04:33 PM
Well I would consider it poor reishiki to be on the mat in an altered state. We emphasize the importance of having trimmed nails, clean keikogi, and clean breath during training. My teacher would scold then kick you off the mat if you had consumed alcohol recently...let alone weed.

Now, training hungover from celebrating with your fellow aikidoka the night before (during a seminar for example) is a different story.

C. David Henderson
03-21-2010, 07:17 PM
Why?

Michael Douglas
03-22-2010, 01:03 PM
:D
Well I would consider it poor reishiki to be on the mat in an altered state.
Ueshiba had poor reishiki?
(I'm pretending to know what that is...)
You don't get -much- more altered than his state!
:D

gdandscompserv
03-22-2010, 08:51 PM
what is all this non-sense?:D

Mike Sigman
03-29-2010, 07:04 PM
I know lots of people who like to smoke up and do tai chi. So do I. They "do Tai Chi", but they don't really do Tai Chi; it's almost invariably their "take" on tai chi, not real Tai Chi. Happens in a lot of arts where you pretend you're something, you use lots of foreign words, you have authority-figures, and you wear uniforms, and you make up your own meaning that are "just as good as what the founders did... maybe even better, since they weren't as cool and clever as I am about understanding the depths of the universe and love". ;)

Farm out.

Mike Sigman

Aikiman001
04-06-2010, 05:06 PM
One needs to ask the question
"What do you get out of marijuana that makes you want to use it?" Surely things like it slows reaction time, makes you drowsy, encourages weight gain, causes shortness of breath, can be responsible for mental health problems or unsociable behavior are not things as role models we want to promote to our children.

So what is it that you get out of using pot?

Are you trying to expand your mind or become enlightened in some way? Did all the great spiritual leaders use or promote pot? Bob Marley may have but he was not a spiritual leader although his songs did promote unity and love which can only be a good thing.

My answer is that if you want to expand your mind and become closer to God, then you should read the bible (or any other religion that promotes god and love) and live it, then your mind will expand :) then again why not just study the true meaning of Ai-Ki-Do ;)

Pot apparently makes you "feel" good but do you actually DO any "good" to anyone else because of it?

lbb
04-07-2010, 09:50 AM
One needs to ask the question
"What do you get out of marijuana that makes you want to use it?" Surely things like it slows reaction time, makes you drowsy, encourages weight gain, causes shortness of breath, can be responsible for mental health problems or unsociable behavior are not things as role models we want to promote to our children.

So what is it that you get out of using pot?

Are you trying to expand your mind or become enlightened in some way? Did all the great spiritual leaders use or promote pot? Bob Marley may have but he was not a spiritual leader although his songs did promote unity and love which can only be a good thing.
I think that those are questions that people need to ask of themselves -- assuming they feel the need to do so. Secondarily, I suppose it's worth asking other people, if you do so in a spirit of sincere inquiry rather than as a method to create a soapbox to articulate your views. Unfortunately, this thread has primarily consisted of people asking/demanding/shouting the questions at others, or about others, and then shouting out their own answers. That's not the way to come to understanding.

If you genuinely want to know why other people do something, then ask them -- in an open-ended manner, such as, "Why do you do that?", not "Do you think that's going to make you enlightened or something?" with the strong implication that if you do think so, you're a dummy. Then listen to the answer. If you don't want to do that, soapbox away, but don't kid yourself about what you're doing.

David Board
04-07-2010, 10:37 AM
I think that those are questions that people need to ask of themselves -- assuming they feel the need to do so. Secondarily, I suppose it's worth asking other people, if you do so in a spirit of sincere inquiry rather than as a method to create a soapbox to articulate your views. Unfortunately, this thread has primarily consisted of people asking/demanding/shouting the questions at others, or about others, and then shouting out their own answers. That's not the way to come to understanding.

If you genuinely want to know why other people do something, then ask them -- in an open-ended manner, such as, "Why do you do that?", not "Do you think that's going to make you enlightened or something?" with the strong implication that if you do think so, you're a dummy. Then listen to the answer. If you don't want to do that, soapbox away, but don't kid yourself about what you're doing.

I know this comment will take away from what Mary is saying and to be honest I think what she is saying is important. It is very much what occurred in this thread . I also think that by and large what people view as political and social discourse is often exactly what she describes. A speakers park with folks ranting from their various soapboxes oblivious to the others in the park ranting away or in this case hearing some one say Marijuana and jumping up to state their thesis on Marijuana be it legalization, spiritual use, doorway to other drugs or that all the pot smokers I know are lazy bums. Goodonya, Mary for pointing this out.

That being said, Mary's comment gave me a lovely image of Mary (and I don't know Mary so it was actually a short fiery spirited women with dark curly hair) stepping up onto a soapbox and proclaiming vehemently against soapboxes and their evils. While that is not her intent, it is the image it brought to mind. A cartoon that made me smile.:)

mathewjgano
04-07-2010, 05:18 PM
Surely things like it slows reaction time, makes you drowsy, encourages weight gain, causes shortness of breath, can be responsible for mental health problems or unsociable behavior are not things as role models we want to promote to our children.
I don't think you're exactly correct here, but I agree those are not traits I want to promote in my child. Based on my tenure in this subject matter (i.e."10-year"), those are not any more true of marijuana than the more popular drug, alcohol (minus the shortness of breath which occurs from smoking anything). If my son is of proper age/maturity and chooses to drink in moderation, I will not be very concerned. The same would be true for pretty much anything else I can think of. Smoking anything would cause me concern because it's unhealthy for the lungs. Charred materials with oily resins are not good to breathe.

So what is it that you get out of using pot?
Well in my case, mostly a few thousand pages of poetry and prose along with some other works; not particularly well organized...and, actually, a surprising number of fun memories. It wasn't the pot that made it fun, to be clear, but it was there as part of the overall effect. What do you suppose Noah "got" from drinking wine?

Are you trying to expand your mind or become enlightened in some way? Did all the great spiritual leaders use or promote pot? Bob Marley may have but he was not a spiritual leader although his songs did promote unity and love which can only be a good thing.
Well, to begin with, I think many folks would disagree about "Bob" not being a spiritual leader. Rastafarianism is not a joke to a devout rastafarian and Bob had a lot to say about his view of the world....the point of which being that for some, it seems to be a perfectly valid form of spirituality.
To answer your question, for me, expanding the mind was the earliest purpose. Simply put: to experience it. I was very devoutly against recreational drugs because I was a child in Regan's 80's (I just said "NO"), but I eventually came to see a disconnect between the message and the reality about marijuana. I investigated. I believe sober meditation to be a more profound activity, though.

My answer is that if you want to expand your mind and become closer to God, then you should read the bible (or any other religion that promotes god and love) and live it, then your mind will expand :) then again why not just study the true meaning of Ai-Ki-Do ;)
Sure, why not? I don't see reading the Bible as being any more naturally spiritual of an experience than almost anything else I can think of though. In my opinion there's more to simply performing some given act in order for it to be spiritual; which means, at the least, almost any act can be part of a spiritual experience, in my view...And which is why this remains an open question to me: it is not for me to determine whether or not pot would be appropriate for someone else.

Pot apparently makes you "feel" good but do you actually DO any "good" to anyone else because of it?
"Because" of it? No, of course not. But there were certainly times when it relaxed me and put me in a better mood which made for a more positive experience hanging out with me. Obviously it's not good if one needs to imbibe to attain that state, but where it's more coincidental I don't see a problem. This all said, I've been bored with pot for a while now. I don't smoke it presently because I'm 32, my lungs feel it like never before, and I'm playing soccer so it's an obvious detriment to my ability to run my best.
So, in your opinion, how does this all tie into Aikido? Or, more to the point, into some hypothetical study of Aikido? I don't see how it would necessarily be a terrible thing for some person, but I also don't think it would be ideal and I believe deep and sincere training (the kind that most readily applies to spirituality) should always be heading in the direction of what is ideal. That's my opinion...:D ... based on something of a longitudinal study I began in high school and ended in my late 20's.
Be good to yourself folks!
Ogenkide!
Matt

Aikiman001
04-07-2010, 05:45 PM
I don't think you're exactly correct here
Really do you care to explain which ones you disagree with?


Well in my case, mostly a few thousand pages of poetry and prose along with some other works; not particularly well organized...and, actually, a surprising number of fun memories. It wasn't the pot that made it fun, to be clear, but it was there as part of the overall effect. What do you suppose Noah "got" from drinking wine?

I suppose he got a sore head in the morning.


Well, to begin with, I think many folks would disagree about "Bob" not being a spiritual leader. Rastafarianism is not a joke to a devout rastafarian and Bob had a lot to say about his view of the world....the point of which being that for some, it seems to be a perfectly valid form of spirituality.

I dont believe Bob Marley considered himself a spiritual leader at all, he considered himself a singer/writer of music who followed Rasterfarinanism and worshipped Haile Selassie.


I believe sober meditation to be a more profound activity, though.

Perhaps that is my point.


it is not for me to determine whether or not pot would be appropriate for someone else.

Im not here to judge anybody, I am just raising some questions.


So, in your opinion, how does this all tie into Aikido? Or, more to the point, into some hypothetical study of Aikido?

You asking me this question? Personally I dont think Marijuana has anything to do with the "Study" of Aikido or the "journey" as the OP has put it. if O'Sensei didnt smoke it, and I can can assume he didnt, then why should I have the need too?

mathewjgano
04-07-2010, 06:21 PM
Really do you care to explain which ones you disagree with?
Sorry, I seem to have deleted a bit of my post. I would argue the effects you listed, apart from that of smoking on the lungs, are not always true. Not all people get sleepy, the munchies, etc. As such, they're not absolutely true.

I dont believe Bob Marley considered himself a spiritual leader at all, he considered himself a singer/writer of music who followed Rasterfarinanism and worshipped Haile Selassie...Personally I dont think Marijuana has anything to do with the "Study" of Aikido or the "journey" as the OP has put it. if O'Sensei didnt smoke it, and I can can assume he didnt, then why should I have the need too?
I didn't say he considered himself a spiritual leader though. I meant to draw a correlation between his spirituality and those who might look to him as an exemplar of spirituality...as I know many people to do. I believe the fact that his spirituality was expressed partly through marijuana is the pertinent part relating to the thread. So what if another Rastafarian happens to practice Aikido? Should he or she quit their normal spiritual practices? Now dropping codefied religions altogether, should someone else who happens to find a spiritual marijuana experience quit that practice?
Perhaps that's the best way to frame what I'm trying to allow for in my convoluted rambling.:D

Aikiman001
04-07-2010, 07:21 PM
Sorry, I seem to have deleted a bit of my post. I would argue the effects you listed, apart from that of smoking on the lungs, are not always true. Not all people get sleepy, the munchies, etc. As such, they're not absolutely true.

Yes okay everybody is different, but then from my xp pot smokers will always argue about facts and figures anyway which really wasn't my point to begin with.


Now dropping codefied religions altogether, should someone else who happens to find a spiritual marijuana experience quit that practice?
Perhaps that's the best way to frame what I'm trying to allow for in my convoluted rambling.:D
Yes I think there are healthier ways to find spiritual enlightenment.

mathewjgano
04-07-2010, 08:05 PM
Yes I think there are healthier ways to find spiritual enlightenment.

Fair enough, but then you're no longer "just asking questions."

Aikiman001
04-07-2010, 08:10 PM
Fair enough, but then you're no longer "just asking questions."

Lets just say I answered the OP question then :)

Thats the bottom line for me. I could get you to look at any question as to why you would want to smoke pot but at the end of the day if you want to do it, you will. So all I can do is answer the question.

mathewjgano
04-07-2010, 08:15 PM
Lets just say I answered the OP question then :)

True that! :)

lbb
04-08-2010, 07:45 AM
That being said, Mary's comment gave me a lovely image of Mary (and I don't know Mary so it was actually a short fiery spirited women with dark curly hair) stepping up onto a soapbox and proclaiming vehemently against soapboxes and their evils. While that is not her intent, it is the image it brought to mind. A cartoon that made me smile.:)

And that image made me smile! I'll cop to the "fiery spirited", all right -- how could I not? But my hair is light and very very straight. And, yes, I was indeed soapboxing about soapboxes. So, time to take my own medicine and bow out. Thanks for the nice words, David :D

CurtisK
04-22-2010, 11:22 PM
I didnt notice if the OP posted again, and some of the posts I did gloss over, but to be fair OP did not ask if its OK to be high at the dojo while training. The question is specifically "should you smoke marijuana on your aikido journey".

If forced to estimate, I would say my Aikido jouney is around 5% in the dojo. I have some expereience with this from the past and although I am who I am since I've been who I've been, I can say quite certainly THC is NOT required for enlightenment. Another thing I can say for sure is that the more you think you need it (or any substance) the more you should avoid it.

To use a metaphor: Wine is not bad in itself, and some claim it can be healthy, but an alcoholic should avoid it at all costs.

RED
04-24-2010, 09:02 PM
I really think the answer should be common sense. :/

Like, rocks don't swim... an donuts don't wear alligator shoes...o_0

OwlMatt
07-20-2010, 03:06 PM
I'm going to try and avoid a morality discussion. I think it's fair to say that a good martial artist takes care of his body. So when dealing with a substance that scientific consensus says is harmful to the body, a martial artist had better make sure there is a darn good reason to put it in his body before he does so. So the question is, is there a really good reason for an aikidoka to smoke marijuana?

Russ Q
07-20-2010, 03:43 PM
Hi Matthew, this thread is resurrected. Question: "Is there really a good reason for an aikidoka to drink scotch or smoke tobacco?" Probably not but I know of a few high ranking folks who do just that.

RED
07-20-2010, 04:09 PM
Hi Matthew, this thread is resurrected. Question: "Is there really a good reason for an aikidoka to drink scotch or smoke tobacco?" Probably not but I know of a few high ranking folks who do just that.

I've known of a few highly ranked public officials that have committed adultery, does that justify the acts of adultery of the general public?

Russ Q
07-20-2010, 04:40 PM
Hi Maggie, I think drinking and smoking (depending on cultural context) doesn't equate with adultery. What I'm saying is these are personal choices and to generalize that aikidoka somehow are, or should have, a "higher consciousness" for lack of a better term, is an erroneous assumption. Whether you study martial arts, theology, or sit zazen all day in the monastery you are subject to essentially the same temptations as anyone else. At some point we all want/need to escape. Humans, throughout history, have wanted to get high and have found many ways to do so....All this being my personal opinion please take it as such.

Cheers,

Russ

C. David Henderson
07-20-2010, 07:41 PM
The argument being made takes the form, "Two wrongs don't make a right," but this was not the point being made.

Accordingly, and apart from the question of whether smoking pot, drinking whiskey, or huffing a cigar are morally like adultery -- I agree they are not -- another question arises whether there is a meaningful difference between justifying a behavior (e.g., since politician x does y, so can I), and asking folks whether they'd be equally as prepared to condemn a comparable behavior in which they or someone they know also may engage. (E.g., if you're willing to condemn people for x, are you also ready to condemn people for y?) It's an argument for lenity, not one for justification or even for excuse.

Most people, I bet, would agree that at least some of the time someone sensibly could say, "I don't find 'x' justifiable or even a good idea -- nor am I willing to condemn it. Live and let live."

Unless a person is willing to argue that everything which is not "justified" should be "condemned," these describe two different, if overlapping sets of behavior.

There are a number of words in English -- as I am certain there are in most languages-- for someone who doesn't make this kind of distinction, and those words normally are not a compliment. Think of the character of Inspector Javert, persecuting Jean Valjean for stealing a loaf of bread, for example.

Acts that are unjustified and acts that must be condemned simply are not mutually exclusive categories in everyday thought, because most people don't demand moral perfection.

A closer analogy would be, "Should politician x condemn politician y for committing a particular act when x has done the same or its equivalent?" It suggests, I think, a different answer to most people.

RED
07-20-2010, 07:58 PM
Hi Maggie, I think drinking and smoking (depending on cultural context) doesn't equate with adultery. What I'm saying is these are personal choices and to generalize that aikidoka somehow are, or should have, a "higher consciousness" for lack of a better term, is an erroneous assumption. Whether you study martial arts, theology, or sit zazen all day in the monastery you are subject to essentially the same temptations as anyone else. At some point we all want/need to escape. Humans, throughout history, have wanted to get high and have found many ways to do so....All this being my personal opinion please take it as such.

Cheers,

Russ

My point, personal choices aside, smoking, doing drugs and drinking in excess is harmful to the mind and body according to modern science and common sense. In my opinion, the use of drugs to chemically alter yourself is the practice of the un-dedicated and undisciplined.

With that said, one of the codes of Budo is self preservation. Making choices that are unhealthy for you, morally or physically is not working towards your sense of preservation. You can make any personal choice you want, just don't fool yourself into thinking something is "enhancing" your practice of a Budo when by the very definition of Budo it can not.

Messing up metabolic chemicals, screwing up hormone levels and lung capacity will not enhance your practice of any Budo.
Eyes open, mind clear, heart pure, body strong. Slipping into a chemically induced false sense of reality is counter intuitive... in my humble opinion.
You can't practice any Budo without open eyes and clear perception, unclouded, unaltered except through training.

Budo is about improving yourself. If these are temptations the practitioner is working to over come these things, not embracing them.
People have always tried to get high in history. People have a history of doing lots of stupid things.

RED
07-20-2010, 08:24 PM
A closer analogy would be, "Should politician x condemn politician y for committing a particular act when x has done the same or its equivalent?" It suggests, I think, a different answer to most people.

I think he should disapprove regardless of whether or not he's also committed that sin...because it is wrong, objectively.

I've lied before in my life, yet I hate being lied to.
I rather be thought of as a hypocrite then embrace what is objectively wrong.
There's a lot of freedom frankly in accepting your failures, declaring that you are a hypocrite, you are flawed, yet despite those failures you still believe in the better angels of the human nature.


I believe in living and let living. I do not condemn those who use drugs. However, if there is a difference between condemning those who use drugs, and condemning drug use. I can love and man and hate his actions.(Every mother, father, teacher and dog owner knows this expression of love.)
And if the question is "does pot enhance you study of Aikido" the answer is no for reasons I've thus state in previous posts.

lbb
07-20-2010, 08:41 PM
Maggie, how do you decide what is "objectively wrong" and what is subjectively "live and let live"?

OwlMatt
07-20-2010, 08:50 PM
Hi Matthew, this thread is resurrected. Question: "Is there really a good reason for an aikidoka to drink scotch or smoke tobacco?" Probably not but I know of a few high ranking folks who do just that.

I know a few high-ranking folks who are arrogant and narrow-minded, but that doesn't mean we as aikidoka shouldn't seek to eliminate our arrogance and narrow-mindedness.

Breath is an essential element of aikido, and smoking tobacco is anything but good for breath. The drinking is a little bit of a fuzzier issue. I don't think there is any conclusive evidence out there that having an occasional drink is harmful to us.

The reason I asked the "good reason" question is that stewardship of one's health is a key responsibility of a martial artist. Those things which are harmful to one's health, therefore, ought only be undertaken by a martial artist for a very good reason, a reason which outweighs the responsibility of stewardship of one's health. Personally, I don't think "because it feels good" is such a reason.

RED
07-20-2010, 09:26 PM
Maggie, how do you decide what is "objectively wrong" and what is subjectively "live and let live"?

It's not deciding, sometimes the sky is just blue, 1+1=2. I don't get to say 1+1=4 and be credible. It is not my choice, it just is. I can also consider 1+1=4 is incorrect without hating the man who mis-computed. I can think that doing drugs is harmful and counter productive to Budo without thinking the drug user is defined by that action.

Anyone who thinks they "decide" what is right or wrong for others is self-righteous. If you want to do drugs I'm not going to decide that was a wrong choice for your life, but I have a right to think scientifically proven self-destructive behavior is very tragic.

You can use drugs all you want Mary, I mean you can get high then do Aikido if you want. I don't think you are a bad person for it. I'll live and let you live to make your own choices as an adult, and I'll make my own. But I have every right to think your choices are idiotic, and I can do so without thinking you yourself as a human being is idiotic.

There is a separation between a man and his mistakes.

There's an old joke: "I build this road, every road brick by brick. But do they call me "JOSE THE ROAD BUILDER?" I build this fence, every foot. But do they call me "JOSE THE FENCE BUILDER?"...NO! They don't....I mean you F*ck ONE GOAT and.."

My point, people are better than their mistakes. I believe this because I'd like to believe that I'm better than my mistakes. Everyone would like to think that of themselves, so I'd like to think of them like that for them as well.

This is really all I have to say on the subject.

C. David Henderson
07-20-2010, 09:28 PM
To be fair, the comment I addressed wasn't in response to the OP. Instead, it suggested the previous post, whicht compared pot to other "casual vices" in our society, fairly had invited the question --"Just because one person does something wrong, is that a justification for another person?"

If one accepts the idea that "live and let live" applies to this issue, then it implies smoking pot isn't as bad as adulery or some other "objective sin." It also implies the comment did not invite the rhetorical question in response, because "live and let live" was pretty much the point being made.

RED
07-20-2010, 09:39 PM
To be fair, the comment I addressed wasn't in response to the OP. Instead, it suggested the previous post, whicht compared pot to other "casual vices" in our society, fairly had invited the question --"Just because one person does something wrong, is that a justification for another person?"

If one accepts the idea that "live and let live" applies to this issue, then it implies smoking pot isn't as bad as adulery or some other "objective sin." It also implies the comment did not invite the rhetorical question in response, because "live and let live" was pretty much the point being made.

Bad is bad in my opinion. Regardless of the degree. Yeah smoking pot isn't as bad as cheating on your wife when it comes to the social consequences. But it doesn't make harming yourself any less tragic.
12pm is brighter than 12am... they are both still 12 o'clock.

Doing drugs isn't as bad as killing a child. They are both bad for the human heart. My grandfather said "There's no such thing as a little cyanide." There's no such thing in my opinion as "a little bad for the human heart." It's in your best interest to avoid both murder and drug use to be healthy.

Frankly a rule of thumb, if you know it is bad for you, try avoiding it.
Everyone makes mistakes and has temptation. We will all fail in these areas, but there should be a rational understanding that we shouldn't fool ourselves into believing that there is such a think as "just a little wrong."

Benjamin Green
07-20-2010, 11:11 PM
While it's possible, perhaps even probably, for alcohol and other drugs to be physiologically bad for us: whether those considerations are outweighed by their psychological benefits; at least when taken in moderate amounts; seems to me to be a personal issue. I know I'd be much more stressed without a few Scotches before I go to take my exams (academic exams, not the other kind). There are potentially costs therefore attached to the choice of inaction. Since it seems clear I must chose something - and if there's no little bad, no little cost; it must also follow that there's no greater bad and no greater cost - how then can you sustain the terms as relevant criteria?

niall
07-21-2010, 07:18 AM
This is a personal choice question. Of course noone should ever be on the tatami under the influence of anything. But if someone wants to use marijuana at the weekend or whenever it's completely up to that person. Why should it bother any of us. What could bother us directly is aikido shihan coming in to the dojo smelling strongly of tobacco. And much sadder is that there is still in some budo circles an unattractive ethos of hard-drinking = cool.

Russ Q
07-21-2010, 09:27 AM
Hi all,

Maggie, your logical is fluid and convenient to your arguments but you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth.....Your ideas about budo are yours (or maybe your teachers...or something your read in a book...) We take what we can from our teachers but they are human just like us....Yamaguchi smoked like a chimeny, Dobson lived a hard knock life, and there are some living shihan whom "make their personal choices" that, in my mind, don't make them any less of a budoka regardless of the health consequences.

Cheers,

Russ

Russ Q
07-21-2010, 10:18 AM
...That should read "your logic....." sorry

Janet Rosen
07-21-2010, 10:21 AM
Of course noone should ever be on the tatami under the influence of anything. But if someone wants to use marijuana at the weekend or whenever it's completely up to that person. Why should it bother any of us.
Yep.
Ibuprofen, marijuana,antidepressents, alcohol, sedatives, aspirin.... some need a prescription, some are illegal in some areas of the country/world, some can be bought over the counter...and all have benefits, risks, and side effects and carry no inherent "morality."

Russ Q
07-21-2010, 10:29 AM
Hi Matthew,

I didn't give your reply an answer:

The reason I asked the "good reason" question is that stewardship of one's health is a key responsibility of a martial artist. Those things which are harmful to one's health, therefore, ought only be undertaken by a martial artist for a very good reason, a reason which outweighs the responsibility of stewardship of one's health. Personally, I don't think "because it feels good" is such a reason.

Your statement seems logical and obvious, however, I would caution anyone making up "Rules and Responsibilities" of the martial artist.....simply because they don't necessarily apply to everyone (especially in different cultural contexts). Re: the arrogant and narrow minded high ranking folk....do you have nothing to learn from them? Does their arrogance preclude them from being excellent martial artists? If nothing else, you observe them and say "I won't be like that...." Do the living shihan you like their scotch and tobacco get kicked out of the budo club because they don't live up to everyone's standards.....?

It's a given that taking a mind altering substance and then training is a bad idea but, what someone does outside the dojo, the personal choices that person makes, are really not IMHO up for anyone else to judge....until you've walked a mile in their shoes and all that....

Cheers,

Russ

RED
07-21-2010, 11:05 AM
Hi all,

Maggie, your logical is fluid and convenient to your arguments but you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth.....Your ideas about budo are yours (or maybe your teachers...or something your read in a book...) We take what we can from our teachers but they are human just like us....Yamaguchi smoked like a chimeny, Dobson lived a hard knock life, and there are some living shihan whom "make their personal choices" that, in my mind, don't make them any less of a budoka regardless of the health consequences.

Cheers,

Russ

No one is perfect :)
I do things every day that are very un-Budo. If perfection was something everyone could achieve easily then why would it be worth striving for.
I think everyone you mentioned is technically falling short of the ideal. But I can't judge because I fall short of the ideal as well.
It is an art practiced by people striving to become better, not gods who find it easy.
I guess that's my point.
Should you smoke pot? No, it won't make you a better Aikidoka, and self preservation is a principle of Budo. Do I think you are a bad person for choosing to smoke pot? No. Everyone has something imperfect about them. But I'm not going to pretend it is okay or helpful to smoke pot and do Aikido either. It is a flaw in the person. I won't villainize the person for it, but I won't extol the act either.
It is your personal choice. People make choices every day that are bad for them, and they are free to do so.

I just believe there is a difference between condemning the act, and condemning the person. I condemn my dog for whizzing on the carpet. But I do not condemn her. I don't judge her as "the carpet whizzer". I instead still allow her on my lap every night.
If you smoke pot I'm not going to call you "pot head" and define your entire person by it. Only a very sick person would want their poor personal choices to define their entire being. All I'm saying here is if we can spare this kind of love to a dog,but not each other?

If I can condemn my dogs bad behavior and still invite her on my lap at night, I can condemn a sensei's choice to kill himself, and still revere the man for his knowledge. I believe defining the person as the whole person, not just the flaws. But the flaws are part of the man, and so are the triumphs. It isn't a choice between the good and the bad. You are saying if I accept the good in the man, I have to ignore the bad stuff he does. Or, if I acknowledge his baddness It some how discredits all his great deeds. It doesn't. Take the man as a whole. His failures in my mind extol his virtues even more. A real man, flawed and hurt and broken, is capable of amazing things.

C. David Henderson
07-21-2010, 11:13 AM
Bad is bad in my opinion. Regardless of the degree.

What about differences in kind? Do you see a difference between bad morals and bad breath? Bad self-care and bad faith? Bad driving and bad bank robbery?

Yeah smoking pot isn't as bad as cheating on your wife when it comes to the social consequences. But it doesn't make harming yourself any less tragic.

So then, if the harm is the source of tragedy (which in turn somehow intimates a moral dimension, I suppose), doesn't it matter in terms of the "tragedy" (along with any and all of its moral implications) whether the harms are similar or different -- in degree or in kind?

12pm is brighter than 12am... they are both still 12 o'clock.

A social convention; they are different "times of day." Just like using the same word "bad" to describe someone who is a poor driver and someone who commits murder.

Doing drugs isn't as bad as killing a child.

OK.

They are both bad for the human heart. My grandfather said "There's no such thing as a little cyanide." There's no such thing in my opinion as "a little bad for the human heart." It's in your best interest to avoid both murder and drug use to be healthy.

1. Kind of like saying a trip to the store and a trip around the world are both trips -- they require movement.

2. If you are going to avoid all behavior that you judge just a "little bad for the heart," I suspect that's going to include a lot of stuff. Why would you suppose everything on your list is on everyone's list? Should the lists be the same?

3. So murder is unhealthy? Hence tragic? Hence bad? Or is murder just bad irrespective of whether it harms the murderer? Murder is to be "avoided?" Or is it better expressed -- "Thou shalt not kill?"

RED
07-21-2010, 11:35 AM
What about differences in kind? Do you see a difference between bad morals and bad breath? Bad self-care and bad faith? Bad driving and bad bank robbery?

So then, if the harm is the source of tragedy (which in turn somehow intimates a moral dimension, I suppose), doesn't it matter in terms of the "tragedy" (along with any and all of its moral implications) whether the harms are similar or different -- in degree or in kind?

A social convention; they are different "times of day." Just like using the same word "bad" to describe someone who is a poor driver and someone who commits murder.

OK.

1. Kind of like saying a trip to the store and a trip around the world are both trips -- they require movement.

2. If you are going to avoid all behavior that you judge just a "little bad for the heart," I suspect that's going to include a lot of stuff. Why would you suppose everything on your list is on everyone's list? Should the lists be the same?

3. So murder is unhealthy? Hence tragic? Hence bad? Or is murder just bad irrespective of whether it harms the murderer? Murder is to be "avoided?" Or is it better expressed -- "Thou shalt not kill?"

I went to bible college and majored in theology, so yeah
"Thou shalt not kill" is in fact a perfect statement to me. In the Hebrew context of that quote there is also no distinction in degree between "Thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not commit adultery." Though the social consequences are different for these crimes, they are measured equal in degrees of baddness.
Also it is said according to the law that "hatred" is equivalent to "murder". To hate a man is to murder him in your heart, thus judged as the equivelant.
There are extreme comparisons between social justice and moral justice. Moral justice judges bad as bad regardless of the degree. Social justice judges bad according to how much trouble it causes society at large. Our criminal justice system operates according to social justice. It punishes in degrees equivalent to how much of a burden on society you have been.
Moral justice is more simplistic. It judges wrong as wrong regardless of the social consequences. It measures spiritual consequences equal between murder, hate, thievery, adultery and self abuse. Even though the social consequences for these actions are different.

So the real question is which form of justice should a man follow?
The answer in my mind is both.
Adhere to the laws and consequences of you land, while understanding that imperfection of the heart is something that you need to over come, even if that imperfection isn't considered criminal.

C. David Henderson
07-21-2010, 11:53 AM
Moral justice is more simplistic. It judges wrong as wrong regardless of the social consequences. It measures spiritual consequences equal between murder, hate, thievery, adultery and self abuse.

I contend that while a number of moral codes may well condemn murder, hate, thievery, adultery, and "self-abuse," a code that is incapable of discerning differences between these acts is not just, simply judgmental.

Additionally, unless you are saying "self abuse" means "any use of intoxicants," there is a principle of "self-care" at work as a posited moral principle, and the measure of "abuse" is the trigger for a moral judgment "x is bad." Which makes it less black and white in the context of all the ways people have of "hurting their hearts" more than just "a little bit."

For example ever meet a dry drunk? Abstemious and self-abusing. A two-fer.

akiy
07-21-2010, 12:03 PM
Hi folks,

Let's try to steer the discussion back to being directly pertinent to aikido and the original topic. If you wish to discuss a more general topic, please do so in the Open Discussions (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14) forum.

Thanks,

-- Jun

RED
07-21-2010, 12:03 PM
I contend that while a number of moral codes may well condemn murder, hate, thievery, adultery, and "self-abuse," a code that is incapable of discerning differences between these acts is not just, simply judgmental.

Additionally, unless you are saying "self abuse" means "any use of intoxicants," there is a principle of "self-care" at work as a posited moral principle, and the measure of "abuse" is the trigger for a moral judgment "x is bad." Which makes it less black and white in the context of all the ways people have of "hurting their hearts" more than just "a little bit."

For example ever meet a dry drunk? Abstemious and self-abusing. A two-fer.

It's a conversation between legalism and obectivism then.
Legalism, hatred is not a jail- able offense. Moral-ism, hatred is the same as murder regardless of whether nor not you serve jail time. Social consequence hold no bound in objectivism.
Also,I distinguish between the condemnation of an act and the person committing it personally. Mistakes do not define a human for me personally.

Self Abuse does not equate the use of an intoxicant, it equals the abuse of an intoxicant. Abuse is the key word here. It is wrong and bad to abuse yourself. What ever the degree, self abuse should be unacceptable for a rational being, regardless of social consequence.

RED
07-21-2010, 12:05 PM
Hi folks,

Let's try to steer the discussion back to being directly pertinent to aikido and the original topic. If you wish to discuss a more general topic, please do so in the Open Discussions (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14) forum.

Thanks,

-- Jun

I'm sorry :D
I'll go do my work now.

jonreading
07-21-2010, 12:20 PM
I advocate that we should endeavor to act appropriately within our moral, social, and humantarian circles of influence. Some of our actions are governed by law, some by our faith, some by our morals, and some are governed by other areas of influence within our lives. Our actions are fallible and subject to hypocracy, if not social, moral or legal retribution.

The quantification (or comparative justification) of a discouraged activity is simply a petition for absolution of guilt and responsibility. I argue that we are concerned with justifying to ourselves our actions. Every thing we do seemed like it was a good idea right? The simple fact is that people make mistakes every day. The nature of vices is that of corruption, which is why many people choose to avoid or minimize their exposure to vices. Can some people navigate their behavior to allow greater interaction with vice-like behavior? Absolutely. This is why most of us take a live and let live stance on many vice behaviors...we understand there are those who can control their interaction and exposure to vice behaviors and undertake them in a responsible manner. We also expect they accept the responsibilty for the consequences, accidental or otherwise, derived from their behavior. But then there are people who don't.

To return to the OP, in this thread we are talking about smoking marijuana in association with attending class. Looking at it another way... would you smoke pot in front of your children, your peers, the police? Or, is this a question that is acceptible to ask because of the perceived lattitude towards that behavior? I believe smoking marijuana is at best socially acceptable only in certain social circles.

I will say that if I choose not to smoke, I will never need to accept responsibilty for injuring someone while under the influence of drugs. Similarly, if I choose not to drink and drive I will never need to accept responsibility for killing someone while under the influence of alcohol. I have seen too many friends destroyed by drugs and alcohol so I choose not to allow those elements to influence my behavior.

lbb
07-21-2010, 01:59 PM
It's not deciding, sometimes the sky is just blue, 1+1=2. I don't get to say 1+1=4 and be credible. It is not my choice, it just is. I can also consider 1+1=4 is incorrect without hating the man who mis-computed. I can think that doing drugs is harmful and counter productive to Budo without thinking the drug user is defined by that action.

Anyone who thinks they "decide" what is right or wrong for others is self-righteous. If you want to do drugs I'm not going to decide that was a wrong choice for your life, but I have a right to think scientifically proven self-destructive behavior is very tragic.

You can use drugs all you want Mary, I mean you can get high then do Aikido if you want. I don't think you are a bad person for it.

Whoa up, Maggie -- I seem to have struck a nerve here. I'll admit that I probably used poor diction in my choice of the word "decide", but I think you jumped to some unwarranted conclusions here. Let's step back and see if we can't make sense of this.

First off, when I said "decide", I didn't mean that in "deciding" what is right and what is wrong, you thereby create some objective reality of what is right and wrong. It is of course an insane proposition to believe that you can create an objective reality of the "1+1=2" sort merely by deciding that it is so. What I meant instead was, how do you distinguish between those things that are "1+1=2" objective-reality wrong, and those things whose rightness or wrongness is a matter of subjective judgment? You can reply "bad is bad" if you want, but a tautology won't answer my question. I want to know if you have some kind of system of moral reasoning that allows you to distinguish between the two categories of "wrong".

I'd also like to say that this discussion isn't about me and my habits, and I think comments like "You can use drugs all you want Mary" verge on ad hominem of a particularly fraudulent type. There's plenty of "If you refuse to virulently condemn practice xyz, you must be a practitioner" rhetoric in the world; let's not add to it here.

To relate this to aikido and to the subject of this thread, I train with someone who, I am pretty sure, uses marijuana for medical reasons. He has never said so and we have never discussed it, but I know some things about his medical condition and I have a nose. The subject of an aikidoka using marijuana is therefore not an abstract one for me, in which I can take an absolute position that is not tested in real life. I've often been accused of wallowing in shades of gray...well, guilty as charged, I guess. Black and white do exist, but sometimes reality forces you to admit that there's a lot of gray as well.

gdandscompserv
07-21-2010, 09:25 PM
if you have to ask, probably not.
:D

OwlMatt
07-24-2010, 09:59 PM
Your statement seems logical and obvious, however, I would caution anyone making up "Rules and Responsibilities" of the martial artist.....simply because they don't necessarily apply to everyone (especially in different cultural contexts).
I'm pretty sure the responsibility of caring for one's body is pretty universal in the martial arts. I, for one, have never heard an exception.
Re: the arrogant and narrow minded high ranking folk....do you have nothing to learn from them? Does their arrogance preclude them from being excellent martial artists? If nothing else, you observe them and say "I won't be like that...." Do the living shihan you like their scotch and tobacco get kicked out of the budo club because they don't live up to everyone's standards.....?

I'm not suggesting anything of the kind. I only meant that we ought not blindly accept something (especially something not directly related to aikido technique) as a good idea simply because it comes from a person of high rank.
It's a given that taking a mind altering substance and then training is a bad idea but, what someone does outside the dojo, the personal choices that person makes, are really not IMHO up for anyone else to judge....until you've walked a mile in their shoes and all that....
I don't mean to judge anyone. Like I said before, if someone has a good reason for doing something, that's all well and good. I'm just having a hard time imagining such a reason.

Benjamin Green
07-25-2010, 01:22 PM
Responsibility does not imply duty. Whatever my actions are I am responsible for them. If I shoot someone in the head I am responsible, but that does not make it a good idea.

Rob Watson
08-17-2010, 08:52 PM
From a recent "Journal of Neuroscience" article researchers found cannabinoids impaired the bodies circadian rhythms in mice. Very similar mechanism occur in humans so the effect is likely to exist as well.

From my previous years of personal research "cough, cough" I'd have to concur. I still think it is 1994 or there abouts.

http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/30/30/10061

mathewjgano
08-17-2010, 10:47 PM
From a recent "Journal of Neuroscience" article researchers found cannabinoids impaired the bodies circadian rhythms in mice. Very similar mechanism occur in humans so the effect is likely to exist as well.

From my previous years of personal research "cough, cough" I'd have to concur. I still think it is 1994 or there abouts.

http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/30/30/10061

Not quite: it's actually 1998. I'm looking forward to playing that Prince song this year at the New Year's Party. After that, it's to the bunker with me: I hear that Y2K thing will be something serious to deal with so I'm not taking any chances.
...Gotta say though, I sure feel old for a 20 year old! Oh well. Best not to dwell on it. :cool:

lbb
08-18-2010, 09:45 AM
Youse guys got a whole new meaning of the word "circadian"...:D

Rob Watson
08-18-2010, 10:14 AM
Youse guys got a whole new meaning of the word "circadian"...:D

Strange things happen when one does not get enough sleep! If I was a cicada would my circadian rhythm cycle differently? Smoke enough and these types of questions seem really and truly cosmically important.

mathewjgano
08-23-2010, 11:13 AM
I can't remember where, but I seem to recall something about some "cirque du canadians" who said marijuana was bad, but I can't remember.
:p (Sorry, in a goofy mood this morning:D )

RED
08-23-2010, 11:41 AM
I can't remember where, but I seem to recall something about some "cirque du canadians" who said marijuana was bad, but I can't remember.
:p (Sorry, in a goofy mood this morning:D )

You're high...:grr:

:p

mathewjgano
08-23-2010, 01:40 PM
You're high...:grr:

:p
Yeah.

...on life! :p

Krystal Locke
11-14-2010, 12:55 PM
I was going to vote for Oregon's decriminalization measure,
but then I got high.

Aikido training is dangerous enough. Don't put others at risk they do not agree to by doing it high.

ravenest
11-29-2010, 08:31 PM
One of the most competent aikido Sensai I ever trained with turned up late, didnt warm up (said- its been years since I warmed up) and started the class by saying "dont ask me where I was or what I smoked last night".

I thought I was hearing things but two other people later said they heard the same thing.

It certainly didnt seem to effect HIS ability, understanding, focus, etc. His skill is acclaimed, and not just by aikido people.

But thats HIM, not you. Like everything, it depends on the individual. If I smoked marijuana before training I doubt I would end up turning up there ... I'd probably stay at home and look at the view.

What I dont like is getting that odd wiff of beery breath off certain individuals at times. :yuck:

lbb
11-30-2010, 08:59 AM
http://files.sharenator.com/Thread_Crap_Wont_Die_RE_mega_zombie_forum-s300x371-97014.jpg

Randy Sexton
11-30-2010, 09:02 AM
No!!!
Doc Sexton

mathewjgano
11-30-2010, 12:52 PM
No!!!
Doc Sexton

(Sorry Mary, but...)
Hi Doc,
Would you be willing to elaborate? One of the reasons I ask is that I consider the "Just Say No" approach to have done more damage than good, on the whole...Particularly among those who are inclined toward "counter-culture" attitudes.
Take care,
Matt

(Sorry again, Mary...If there's anything I like more than feeding the trolls, it's feeding zombies...maybe I'll look up some Z.F.A. meetings:D )

Alberto_Italiano
12-01-2010, 04:56 PM
I think (my two cents) that the bottom line is: how can we reach an altered state of conscience that may lead us to superior experiences or a diverse and more profound perception of the meaning of a kata?

The question in itself could be legitimate, the means not.

We often label as "geniuses" persons who suffer of a mental pathology that makes them able to perform, for instance, amazing calculations that "normal" persons can't do mentally. Autism is one of such pathologies: at the price of being utterly unable of social interaction, a few of these persons become able to perform extremely complicated mathematical operations mentally.

However, labeling them as geniuses, is a misnoming. In these persons a mental barrier fell and they now reached a type of neural network where these computations can be made overcoming instantly the resistance that in "normal" people is there.

And yet it's a pathology. Why? because the mental resistance that is there must not be vanquished instantly - as a pathology or a drug could. It needs to be conquered consciously.
There seems to be a significant difference between attaining an "alternative" mental status while you still possess the integrity of all your mental faculties and you overcome your inner resistances with their cooperation, and attaining it while your faculties are compromised and the resistence, rather than conquered, is simply abolished.

So, you should not be high on the mat - however, you may strive to train so hard that the mat sets you high.

I read that in some traditional schools you had to train till complete exhaustion. Then you had to train a few hours longer, for _that_ was the real training and the rest was preparation.
if you want an aiki drug, then _that_ ought to be your drug of choice.

lbb
12-02-2010, 07:48 AM
Sigh...

graham christian
12-05-2010, 05:45 PM
Training in any athletic endeavor when you are impaired/under the influence of any mind-altering substance is potentially dangerous not only to the person, but to anybody who trains with that person.

I can not think of any cogent reason why any dojo should allow a person to train in an altered state. I have even spoken to a student who had alcohol on his breath, despite acting entirely sober. As the owner of a dojo, I am ultimately responsible for the well-being of the students training there. Clean body, mind and uniforms are simply starting points to walk onto my mats!

True Story:

One of my sempai was going through a divorce and would smoke pot before training. Pot calms must people down. For him, it had a disinhibitory effect. The result was that he became an angry snap and people would get hurt (big strong person). This person needed to spoken to and told what was going on and that nobody really wanted to train with him anymore. This is a good person who was oblivious as to what was going on. He had no intent or desire to hurt anybody.

bottom line:

Train safe means NO MIND-ALTERING substances before training.

Marc Abrams

Hi Marc,
Thought I would give a response here as I like what you've said and plus you might find it amusing coming from me.(first impressions and all that)

Three points. Firstly from the view of letting someone train who has been taking drugs. If the person thinks it will make their training go better then let me explain what will generally happen so that others may look out for the symptoms. If the person not only has to train phsically hard but has to concentrate and correct themselves and stay centered and calm and yet alert and aware you will find they start feeling a bit nauseous. They will say they have a bit of a stomach problem(as an excuse) and if they are made to carry on in a disciplined fashion will start going red and white blotchy in the face. If they are made to carry on they will proceed to be sick and vomit.

Of couse the person will put on a good act and say it was the takeaway they had the previous night or some such excuse.

Secondly, a story. An old friend of mine got in touch with me over four years ago now and asked me to give him something to 'clean his system out' as he had been a heavy marijuana smoker for years and had an interview coming up in three weeks for a job on london transport where your blood is tested for such things.

I told him it would take heavy exercise, saunas if possible and a special nutritional programme to be followed to the letter.

Bless him he did it and completed it and got the job and and even progressed to inspecter. The point of this story though is what he told me afterwards.

He told me that he had always thought he was relaxed and only now did he realize that he wasn't relaxed he was LETHARGIC. He laughed at himself comparing how he was to how he felt now.

Thirdly for all those interested in mechanics. Marujiana destroys all the vitamin B1 in the brain, it is this which leads to the 'high'.

Vitamin B1 is the MAJOR food for the brain.

Alcohol has a similar effect by destroying the same vitamin in fact it was discovered way back in the 60's that if you injected bib doses of vitamin B1 into the blood of a drunk alcoholic they would sober up within a couple of minutes.

Hope this helps someone their musings on the subject.

Cheers. G.

Marc Abrams
12-06-2010, 12:58 PM
Hi Marc,
Thought I would give a response here as I like what you've said and plus you might find it amusing coming from me.(first impressions and all that)

Three points. Firstly from the view of letting someone train who has been taking drugs. If the person thinks it will make their training go better then let me explain what will generally happen so that others may look out for the symptoms. If the person not only has to train phsically hard but has to concentrate and correct themselves and stay centered and calm and yet alert and aware you will find they start feeling a bit nauseous. They will say they have a bit of a stomach problem(as an excuse) and if they are made to carry on in a disciplined fashion will start going red and white blotchy in the face. If they are made to carry on they will proceed to be sick and vomit.

Of couse the person will put on a good act and say it was the takeaway they had the previous night or some such excuse.

Secondly, a story. An old friend of mine got in touch with me over four years ago now and asked me to give him something to 'clean his system out' as he had been a heavy marijuana smoker for years and had an interview coming up in three weeks for a job on london transport where your blood is tested for such things.

I told him it would take heavy exercise, saunas if possible and a special nutritional programme to be followed to the letter.

Bless him he did it and completed it and got the job and and even progressed to inspecter. The point of this story though is what he told me afterwards.

He told me that he had always thought he was relaxed and only now did he realize that he wasn't relaxed he was LETHARGIC. He laughed at himself comparing how he was to how he felt now.

Thirdly for all those interested in mechanics. Marujiana destroys all the vitamin B1 in the brain, it is this which leads to the 'high'.

Vitamin B1 is the MAJOR food for the brain.

Alcohol has a similar effect by destroying the same vitamin in fact it was discovered way back in the 60's that if you injected bib doses of vitamin B1 into the blood of a drunk alcoholic they would sober up within a couple of minutes.

Hope this helps someone their musings on the subject.

Cheers. G.

Graham:

A very good friend of mine is one of the top reggae percussionists in the world (was Jimmy Cliff's percussionist....). MOST reggae performers and even Rastafarians do not smoke pot. It is a big selling point because of Bob Marley's public embracing of marijuana. Having spend time in Jamaica, in places in and around Kingston that most people perceive as ridiculously dangerous, my family and I have had remarkably healthy and enlightening experiences with some very spiritual, kind, healthy people. I am looking forward to taking my family back to Jamaica again for this holiday season.

Back to the issue you raised.... In my younger hellion days, I was certainly no angel with drug and alcohol use. Even then, I would remain sober when competing at high level athletics. Depending upon the drugs that you are on, your performance can be artificially enhanced (the number of baseball players who have ADHD :D :D :D and take medication for that- speed, is statistically far beyond stat.s from the general population). The downsides with some medications can appear when they have underlying physiological conditions (weakened artery...) and the damage is subtle until it typically becomes suddenly severe and life-threatening. Other drugs, like marijuana (NOT tested for in the NBA, because they would likely not be able to field teams!) do like you say and people think that it makes them focus better, The reality has been tested too many times that people should simply give up on that argument.

detection: Pupil response is a GREAT means by which we can get a quick and relatively accurate read of whether someone is on pot, speed, opiates,....

I allow adults to act like adults. If you want to play game, be willing to live by it's rules. One of my rules is based upon personal experience, best science and sports practices, which means that sobriety in my dojo is a strictly enforced rule. I have no problem asking people to step off of my mats and talk with me if they seem under the influence of anything. Sometimes a student has had a couple of beers and is on the mats six hours later and I smell alcohol on that person's breath. I then speak to that person privately and then make my decision. I have no problems helping people with abuse and dependence problems (no me personally, because it would be an ethical violation as a psychologist- dual roles).

I am genuinely glad to see endorse sobriety. I am not surprised by that, but then again not many of us White folks attend indigenous, religious ceremonies in some of the poorest neighborhoods in Jamaica either (amazing experiences). First impressions are what they are. It is the ability to look beyond what we see that truly allows us to deepen our life experiences.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

graham christian
12-06-2010, 06:55 PM
Graham:

A very good friend of mine is one of the top reggae percussionists in the world (was Jimmy Cliff's percussionist....). MOST reggae performers and even Rastafarians do not smoke pot. It is a big selling point because of Bob Marley's public embracing of marijuana. Having spend time in Jamaica, in places in and around Kingston that most people perceive as ridiculously dangerous, my family and I have had remarkably healthy and enlightening experiences with some very spiritual, kind, healthy people. I am looking forward to taking my family back to Jamaica again for this holiday season.

Back to the issue you raised.... In my younger hellion days, I was certainly no angel with drug and alcohol use. Even then, I would remain sober when competing at high level athletics. Depending upon the drugs that you are on, your performance can be artificially enhanced (the number of baseball players who have ADHD :D :D :D and take medication for that- speed, is statistically far beyond stat.s from the general population). The downsides with some medications can appear when they have underlying physiological conditions (weakened artery...) and the damage is subtle until it typically becomes suddenly severe and life-threatening. Other drugs, like marijuana (NOT tested for in the NBA, because they would likely not be able to field teams!) do like you say and people think that it makes them focus better, The reality has been tested too many times that people should simply give up on that argument.

detection: Pupil response is a GREAT means by which we can get a quick and relatively accurate read of whether someone is on pot, speed, opiates,....

I allow adults to act like adults. If you want to play game, be willing to live by it's rules. One of my rules is based upon personal experience, best science and sports practices, which means that sobriety in my dojo is a strictly enforced rule. I have no problem asking people to step off of my mats and talk with me if they seem under the influence of anything. Sometimes a student has had a couple of beers and is on the mats six hours later and I smell alcohol on that person's breath. I then speak to that person privately and then make my decision. I have no problems helping people with abuse and dependence problems (no me personally, because it would be an ethical violation as a psychologist- dual roles).

I am genuinely glad to see endorse sobriety. I am not surprised by that, but then again not many of us White folks attend indigenous, religious ceremonies in some of the poorest neighborhoods in Jamaica either (amazing experiences). First impressions are what they are. It is the ability to look beyond what we see that truly allows us to deepen our life experiences.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Hi Marc.
Nicely put. G.

CNYMike
12-09-2010, 08:27 PM
NO. I have very strong feelings for personal reasons I will not get into here. But that's my response.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-10-2010, 09:03 PM
OP Do you really have the time in between bouts? I get enough from endorphins, and adrenalin rush, let alone a spliff: hypno: :eek:
Like the odd cigar with a pint now and again, but the old earthy stuff not so far out kiddo....:freaky:

ravenest
12-13-2010, 07:08 PM
Just curious as I've noted this a few times.

Could someone please tell me what the problem is?

I thought it would be natural for new people on a forum to read through what is written and post what they think or feel to.

Apparently it annoys some, or at least is cause for a 'dig'.

I also enjoy a tarot forum and people there value new ideas and input, even on 'old worn out subjects.' if the thread IS dead, then its closed and one cant add to it with posts.

If you dont like it ........... ermmmm, just dont keep reading it :(

ravenest
12-13-2010, 08:30 PM
Ummm, re post # 172, I mean.

Michael Varin
12-13-2010, 09:59 PM
I had been avoiding this thread. I just read every post and now I think I'm the one who needs some marijuana.

You show up high on the mat and you are sent home.
If you come on the mat impaired, well, I'm with George -- you should find the door asap. I don't care why you're impaired or what you're impaired from -- I don't want you hurt nor do I want you doing anything to or with anyone else. If you're not 100% there do everyone a favor and stay home.
Under the influence of anything-drugs, alcohol, mushrooms, etc. is not only disrespectful to the art and dojo but dangerous to your fellow classmates and yourself.
Training in any athletic endeavor when you are impaired/under the influence of any mind-altering substance is potentially dangerous not only to the person, but to anybody who trains with that person.

I can not think of any cogent reason why any dojo should allow a person to train in an altered state.

bottom line:

Train safe means NO MIND-ALTERING substances before training.
First, I want to say that a person who owns and operates a dojo should be able to exclude anyone from training for any reason, and obviously, any individual should be able to refuse to train with any other student for any reason.

But seeing the strength of many of the responses brought up some questions, namely what are the logical limits?

What about anti-depressants?
Adderall, beta-blockers, hormones?
Tobacco, caffeine?

Some people are naturally violent and sadistic. Some are mentally ill or developmentally delayed. Some are extremely emotional. What about them?

Some are merely absent minded or uncoordinated, which in my experience has been the most dangerous type of person on the mat -- for themselves, their direct partner(s), and others training around them.

Is this about barring people who use particular substances? Is it about barring people who exhibit particular behaviors? Or is it about maintain the safest possible environment in the dojo?

(By the way, I realize this is a departure from the original topic, but I think that happened almost immediately. And it's an old thread, so what the heck?)

Michael Varin
12-13-2010, 10:03 PM
On a different note, Dan Harden made what in my opinion was a very intriguing post that was completely glossed over, so I thought I'd re-post it. The idea of exploring your personal limits through a variety of means seems interesting and important. Of course the extent to which one does this would seem to be highly individuated.

Two of the best guys I used to roll with liked to get high, both before and after practice. One was also a Greco Roman guy who used to love doing soft wrestling while high or after a few beers.
While we trained very seriously most of the time, we trained with a buzz on in so many living rooms, wedding receptions, parties, and parking lots I lost count. Oh the stories our loved ones could tell!!

I consider full contact jujutsu safer than aikido practice anyway. Why, because you're not giving away body parts or your whole frame to be thrown. Having someone fight to get you while you fight back is much safer, for me.

Anyway, while I don't smoke weed, I have trained/played with some veeery well known men while drunk. and we had a blast. It's another way of testing to me. Then again, I've also trained weapons in a raging blizzard two feet deep and blowing sideways, outside up and down hills, at night by moonlight, I've also gone all out while drunk (with permission from my partners). It's fun to test and play.

So, while -in general- I am all for not allowing intoxication during training, I'm just not much for sweating the little things. I agree with Fred, that some of the worst examples of Budo I have ever met were very legalistic, and wound so tight you...well, that's for another day.

sakumeikan
11-12-2012, 10:55 AM
If you want to and its not harming others - why are people so concerned? From a spitiual perspective, you will already know the answer. A lot of judgemental people out there, obviously living perfect lives. :rolleyes:

Dear Alison, ,
I cannot in all sincerity agree with yopur viewws on this subject.from personal experience istate the marijuana has caused me , my wife and my family a lot of pain.Not only has this drug caused members of my family job prospects thanks to this stuff this harmless [joke] crap has seriouslyaffected a member of my family and nearly ruined another.This drug is responsible for ruining a lot lives.Harmless?I think not.Cheers , Joe.

mathewjgano
11-12-2012, 12:04 PM
I live in Washington state where we just "legalized" the stuff. I know a lot of people who smoke and I used to smoke pretty heavily myself so I have a very direct set of experiences. I see more problematic behavior with alcohol than weed, but I'm inclined to think the problems are deeper rooted than the substances abused...which clearly do compound those issues though.
That being said I believe I just heard about a study which suggests marijuana can lead to a form of schizophrenia (or similar behavior) in some people. Again, I'm inclined to think all substance abuse can contribute to having similar results, albeit perhaps not in the same conditions.
The most pervasive problem I can see is the effects of smoking on the lungs/breath as well as the issues that come from any chronic substance use, which gradually rewire certain mental functions (e.g. memory and motivation).

Alfonso
11-12-2012, 08:29 PM
I live in Washington state where we just "legalized" the stuff. I know a lot of people who smoke and I used to smoke pretty heavily myself so I have a very direct set of experiences. I see more problematic behavior with alcohol than weed, but I'm inclined to think the problems are deeper rooted than the substances abused...which clearly do compound those issues though.
That being said I believe I just heard about a study which suggests marijuana can lead to a form of schizophrenia (or similar behavior) in some people. Again, I'm inclined to think all substance abuse can contribute to having similar results, albeit perhaps not in the same conditions.
The most pervasive problem I can see is the effects of smoking on the lungs/breath as well as the issues that come from any chronic substance use, which gradually rewire certain mental functions (e.g. memory and motivation).

Hi Matt, to be fair that study really states that schizos do better with weed than without; it jumps to the conclusion that ergo people go schizo in a really strange from the science but understandable from the politics. 26 people study all schizophrenic is really no go way to make a claim like that.

That said, I have / do smoke and it has absolutely nothing to do with Aikido. IMHO so NO. Dumb question in my mind. Can you do aikido when you're not sober? Yeah, I've seen that in all forms. So just cause you can doesnt mean much.

And I'm drinking a beer right now

mathewjgano
11-12-2012, 09:32 PM
Hi Matt, to be fair that study really states that schizos do better with weed than without; it jumps to the conclusion that ergo people go schizo in a really strange from the science but understandable from the politics. 26 people study all schizophrenic is really no go way to make a claim like that.

That said, I have / do smoke and it has absolutely nothing to do with Aikido. IMHO so NO. Dumb question in my mind. Can you do aikido when you're not sober? Yeah, I've seen that in all forms. So just cause you can doesnt mean much.

And I'm drinking a beer right now
Hi Alfonso,
Thanks for the info!
I must have misread it but I thought it stated that some of the schizophrenics in the case (the ones with a history of marijuana) displayed differences that suggested it was induced through the repeated use; that the mechanisms involved are similar and that the repeated use probably increase susceptibility. I do recall a meta analysis (i.e. an article about it) which suggested that this only applies to a small percentage of people...I want to say something on the order of 1 in 50,000; so if this were my home town of Everett (population of approx 100,000 people) only about 2 people would have a risk.
I wasn't aware it only involved 26 people though. If that's it, I'm not sure how they could infer much...then again there must be more studies in that vein if someone was able to do a meta analysis. Clearly I'll have to read up on it in more detail.
Take care,
Matt

jbelly
04-23-2014, 03:50 AM
they wouldn't make it to keiko if they smoke the strong stuff

Edgecrusher
04-23-2014, 11:39 AM
Do you want to drop acid on the journey too? This is an inappropriate topic and should remain private to an individual who uses. Some questions need not be asked.

SteveTrinkle
04-23-2014, 11:54 AM
who needs weed ? aikido itself is a mind altering activity

lbb
04-23-2014, 02:09 PM
Thread's four years old.

Keith Larman
04-23-2014, 02:52 PM
Thread's four years old.

Whoooaaaaaa, seems like yesterday. Far out, man! Mind blown!

Michael Douglas
04-24-2014, 03:21 PM
Mat Curry necro'd it!
Mmmm ... Curry ...

got the munchies! :D

Janet Rosen
04-24-2014, 03:40 PM
Thread's four years old.

Must have been a stoner resurrected it :p

JP3
04-24-2014, 06:26 PM
I've noticed such a tendency amoung people that I know smoke weed for long periods that it's an actual stereotype.

Long term weed use seems to inhibit ambition, that's been my observation. And.. the smokers don't seem to care that they lack it, thus the problem.

Brian Beach
04-26-2014, 06:47 AM
I've noticed such a tendency amoung people that I know smoke weed for long periods that it's an actual stereotype.

Long term weed use seems to inhibit ambition, that's been my observation. And.. the smokers don't seem to care that they lack it, thus the problem.


"They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do just as well you just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference. - Bill Hicks ;)

jbelly
05-13-2014, 03:29 AM
Mat Curry necro'd it!
Mmmm ... Curry ...

got the munchies! :D

hahaha...no munchies - i value my lungs. however, a recent experience made this topic relevant.

Dan Richards
09-25-2014, 02:24 PM
Over the last few years I've followed this thread, and have probably read through every post. It's interesting how this topic really seems to press some buttons.

The world of Budo is no stranger to mind altering substances. There are many stories and examples of imbibing budoka, including a story told by Nishio (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/interview-aikido-shoji-nishio/) where he describes, "One entire wall of a six tatami room in Hombu Dojo was used for shelves with alcohol stacked up to the ceiling."

When I trained in Denmark, I trained for a couple of years at Christiania Aikido, which was located in Christiania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania) also known as "Free Town" in Copenhagen. It's classified as an "experiment" by the Danish government. In the early 70's people entered and began squatting in abandoned houses and military barracks and using the 80 acres of land to build a community and establish an autonomous neighborhood with its own government.

If you can imagine the Woodstock Festival being turned into a town — that's Christiania. A real time warp to the late 60's. It's a very popular place, with tourists passing through, concerts and festivals. The culture there is mostly one of sustainability and independence. There are a lot of artists and craftsman with private workshops and houses, and cafes and concert halls for the community. Many of the spaces are stunningly beautiful.

Real troublemakers, bikers, and hard drugs were evicted in the late 70's. Leaving behind a relatively safe and peaceful core community — although not without occasional flare ups of violence. As you can imagine, it's pretty hippy-dippy, and there are groups and classes for all kinds of things, including meditation, yoga, softer martial arts, etc..

There's also a pretty big hash culture there, similar to Amsterdam. Hash is openly sold at stands on the main street, called "Pusher Street," and it's openly smoked and enjoyed in cafes and bars.

Christiania Aikido training sessions — which were two hours long and held five days per week – often adjourned afterwards to one of the cafes for some relaxation and conversation. This would often include some coffee or tea or beer and a little something to eat, as well as the making and passing around of a hash joint or chillum.

The conversations were always stimulating and explorative, and of course many of them revolved around Aikido. It was a very intensive and immersive time. And I have fond memories of the friendships and training that were forged there.

Dan Richards
10-02-2014, 11:20 AM
This topic, at this point, has over 34K views. There seems to be some interest on this and related subjects.

Here's a link to an enlightening interview with Ahati Kilindi Iyi, an elder in African Martial Sciences. He discusses everything from the history of martial arts, addictions, marijuana, power plants, shamanism, spiritual realms, alchemy, levels of consciousness and maturity, hyper dimensional martial arts training, "downloading" martial arts (ala Matrix).

He's an American raised in Brooklyn, and gives an overview of martial arts and sciences that is extremely wide and deep in scope.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/illuminated-one/2010/03/24/elder-ahati-kilindi-iyi

fatebass21
12-06-2014, 07:54 AM
No.

Try meditation.