YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

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[AllanF]

Though this would be appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_eiiTnHiC4&feature=channel

[AllanF]

Not that it matters but, how did that subject heading change?

[thisisnotreal]

Allen,
GTFO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_eiiTnHiC4&feature=channel#t=0m8s)<. How in the heck does he do that? Amazing.

[JW]

How in the heck does he do that?

That type of throw depends on the "uke's" force and intent, right? Not saying it isn't awesome, but just that the uke could make it look crappy/not work just be being limp, to some degree, yes?

[AllanF]

Hey Josh,

What does "GTFO" mean? My internet-fu isn't too good!:)
I think he does it based on the principle of yin ru; yang chu (yin in or returning; yang issuing). But as i can not do that it is merely supposition on my part.

Off the topic, i am concerned that the subject heading was completely changed (not even altered) from the original. I find it disconcerting that admins/mods can and will access users' posts and modify them if they see fit! Where are the ethics/principles/morals? Beside which surely it would be common courtesy to inform said poster of any such change and the reasons for doing so in advance of it happening? :mad:

[akiy]

Hi Allan,

I changed the subject of your post, as your original subject did not really inform the viewer of the subject matter of your post. I did not mean to cause offense.

-- Jun

[thisisnotreal]

Hey Josh,

What does "GTFO" mean? My internet-fu isn't too good!:)
I think he does it based on the principle of yin ru; yang chu (yin in or returning; yang issuing). But as i can not do that it is merely supposition on my part.

Off the topic, i am concerned that the subject heading was completely changed (not even altered) from the original. I find it disconcerting that admins/mods can and will access users' posts and modify them if they see fit! Where are the ethics/principles/morals? Beside which surely it would be common courtesy to inform said poster of any such change and the reasons for doing so in advance of it happening? :mad:
Hi Allan,JW,
: ] (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gtfo). I found the clip unapproachable before; but I think your and JW's 2 comments insightful. I think I see a bit more. Not sure, wonder what you guys think. This may only be interesting to me; so...sorry if this is too pedantic.
Allan - after your comment of Yin In, Yang Out, I believe I can actually see a moment where uke is 'breathed in' and there is a small but perceptble jump where I think is the beginning of his loss of control over himself.
And w.r.t. JW's comments; I expected that this worked via a kind of all-around power explosion...but actually it is, as you said, a very precise, very aligned, very clean power release along a specific line of absorption/release. maybe i'm not explaining the difference between what I thought before and after; but it is a big difference in my mind. (I.e. Now I am a little less ignorant than before. only a little!) Thanks a lot.

Anyway; I appreciate the clip and your ideas. a lot. It is fascinating to me all the different ways to think about and discuss these things.

Josh

[Mike Sigman]

That type of throw depends on the "uke's" force and intent, right? Not saying it isn't awesome, but just that the uke could make it look crappy/not work just be being limp, to some degree, yes?That's basically true, Jonathan. However the joint-lock makes it difficult for Uke to be able to be totally relaxed. Li has good body conditioning/training and releases a nice small pulse, but there is a bit of overreaction by the Uke so I can't really judge how powerful Li really is. I'm sure he's quite powerful, but I just can't judge much with cooperative Uke's in a situation like this one.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman

[Mike Sigman]

Incidentally, here's a bit of nostalgia for the older people who remember when Robert Smith was writing about the wonders of his teacher, Cheng Man Ching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9BfbqAbprk

Compare Cheng's body motion with someone like the O.P.'s video Li Chugong, who I only know as someone who is a student of Hong Junsheng (who does a variant of Chen-style Taiji).

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[AllanF]

Hi Allan,JW,
: ] (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gtfo). I found the clip unapproachable before; but I think your and JW's 2 comments insightful. I think I see a bit more. Not sure, wonder what you guys think. This may only be interesting to me; so...sorry if this is too pedantic.
Allan - after your comment of Yin In, Yang Out, I believe I can actually see a moment where uke is 'breathed in' and there is a small but perceptble jump where I think is the beginning of his loss of control over himself.
And w.r.t. JW's comments; I expected that this worked via a kind of all-around power explosion...but actually it is, as you said, a very precise, very aligned, very clean power release along a specific line of absorption/release. maybe i'm not explaining the difference between what I thought before and after; but it is a big difference in my mind. (I.e. Now I am a little less ignorant than before. only a little!) Thanks a lot.

Anyway; I appreciate the clip and your ideas. a lot. It is fascinating to me all the different ways to think about and discuss these things.

Josh

Josh,
Just a little more on yin ru, yang chu; yang ru yin chu...the principle can be applied to the point of contact (yin being the external flesh yang being the bone marrow) it is also a small circle from the point of contact to the dantian and opposite 'yao' (waist) and thirdly a large circle from opposite foot to the small circle at the dan tian and then over the opponent (It should be yin going down the chest and yang going up the back). Another principle at work here is "tun, tu" (or swallow and spit out), when he does it with one hand the swallow is very small and the yin ru yang chu principle is 3 tight small circles. Later he shows it more obviously with 2 hands.

best
Allan

[JW]

Hi Josh, yeah I think I know what you mean-- "power release" can be done with varying degrees of precision, right? Like hitting a wall with all your might would be a different beast from the way LI Chugong is issuing power in this vid, which is targeted to affect the recipient's specific shape and tension-arrangement.

That's basically true, Jonathan. However the joint-lock makes it difficult for Uke to be able to be totally relaxed.

Interesting point-- this is why aikido has so many pretzley locks, isn't it? They are ways to spool your uke's tension in specific ways, so that he isn't as free to relax here or generate force there. They are pretty direct ways to interact with (take control of) a person's body tension, huh?

Thanks for the Cheng Man Ching video. In terms of learning to look critically at videos-- I can see he is really powerful, but besides that, is this a strong template for a connected type of body? Or is he taking a decent amount of liberty with power/control augmentation that is not dantien-based, on top of his jin usage? Or is he simply so good that he can do really complex things with his limbs, with the dantien still being centrally involved?
--JW

[DH]

Thanks for the Cheng Man Ching video. In terms of learning to look critically at videos-- I can see he is really powerful
--JW
I think he looks terrible. Stand alone or by comparison. In comparison to Li Chugong, CMC is but a shadow. Every once in a while I see a video of CMC; I have yet to see anything that impressed me. Why he enjoys some sort of reputation is beyond me. I wonder if it is the "one eyed man is king" analogy.

Interesting point-- this is why aikido has so many pretzley locks, isn't it? They are ways to spool your uke's tension in specific ways, so that he isn't as free to relax here or generate force there. They are pretty direct ways to interact with (take control of) a person's body tension, huh?
Externally that may be true, but mores the point you can capture uke's center quite well without the aid of a lock. I think that should be a requirement of all aikido.
Secondly, I think absorbing and cancelling lock attempts and then reversing them (with aiki-not waza reversals) should be taught along side doing them. Learn to do and to undo; to throw and to not be thrown, to lock and to be unlockable, to hit and kick and to absorb the same punishment. It gives a different, more wholistic view, a more complete package.
Cheers
Dan

[Thomas Campbell]

Another principle at work here is "tun, tu" (or swallow and spit out), when he does it with one hand the swallow is very small and the yin ru yang chu principle is 3 tight small circles. Later he shows it more obviously with 2 hands.

best
Allan

At a recent I Liq Chuan seminar, Sam Chin also demonstrated tun tu in different ways as part of what he calls "absorb and project." I'll see if I can find a video clip where he demonstrates this overtly.

[AllanF]

At a recent I Liq Chuan seminar, Sam Chin also demonstrated tun tu in different ways as part of what he calls "absorb and project." I'll see if I can find a video clip where he demonstrates this overtly.

That would be cool to see Tom.

[Mike Sigman]

That would be cool to see Tom.Ermmmmm.... there's an old saying in CMA's that says qi does 3 things: float, sink, and 'swalow and spit'. There are examples of 'swallow and spit' in many places, even on YouTube (which ain't in China). Of course if you're looking for a Dalmatian and you don't know what a Dalmatian looks like, you may be looking a long time. ;)

Best.

Mike Sigman

[AllanF]

You presume too much!;)

[thisisnotreal]

Josh,
Just a little more on yin ru, yang chu; yang ru yin chu...the principle can be applied to the point of contact (yin being the external flesh yang being the bone marrow) it is also a small circle from the point of contact to the dantian and opposite 'yao' (waist) and thirdly a large circle from opposite foot to the small circle at the dan tian and then over the opponent (It should be yin going down the chest and yang going up the back). Another principle at work here is "tun, tu" (or swallow and spit out), when he does it with one hand the swallow is very small and the yin ru yang chu principle is 3 tight small circles. Later he shows it more obviously with 2 hands.

best
Allan
Allan,
This is very interesting (thank you very much), and I've been thinking about this for a while. Any chance you can point to a drawing or schematic? I want to make sure i'm tracking your meaning...i think i am...but ...
Josh

[Thomas Campbell]

That would be cool to see Tom.

Allan, I haven't been able to find a clear video example of Sam Chin describing and then demonstrating tun/tou the way he did at the Portland seminar. There may be something close on one of Sam's many DVDs, but I left all of mine with a Portland guy to encourage him in his training.

Sam often uses his own ILC terminology to explain a martial principle in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHuDb9Ou3Kk

Note this is not what Sam referred to as "swallow and spit" at the seminar, but is just an illustration of how Sam explains a principle of application. This is an example of a principle applied to the training partner or opponent, i.e., what is happening to the other person.

Sam will complement that with an explanation of what is happening in his own body (the example here is in another context, producing a wave by absorbing and projecting):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8doU3yMheU

"Float, Sink, Swallow, Spit" is often referred to in southern CMAs, like in these Bak Mei drills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-kbWU7H0vs

and in Lung Ying (the art of the older man in the clip)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-tRnNOhPRE

While southern CMAs seem to have influenced the Chin family art, what Sam demonstrated in Portland was more subtle, powerful, and swifter at touch than the two examples shown above.

Regardless, in demonstration the four are sometimes shown as aspects of the same circle: Swallow = deflecting and adhering, sinking = grounding of the force, taking and moving under the opponent's center, floating = beginning to return the energy, extending into the opponent (the effect can make the opponent feel like they are literally floating), and spit = short pulsing of force (strike). In a very basic sense, swallow and sink might correspond to the "absorbing" concept of Sam's ILC, and float and spit to the "projecting" phase (my very limited and possibly inaccurate understanding of what Sam showed). So much for words . . . hands-on is definitely the way to learn and understand.

It is cool to see subtle and effective demonstrations of jin in other martial arts like Li Chugong demonstrates with his Chen taijiquan--an art that often seems afflicted with belching jin.