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OwlMatt
01-10-2010, 03:19 PM
I work at a school where taekwondo (WTF Moo Duk Kwan) is taught to most of the students. Our taekwondo instructor teaches adult weekend classes, and I'm thinking about joining up. It looks like a lot of fun, and I think it would be cool to have this in common with my students at school. My question is, could this cause problems for me as an aikidoist? Does anyone here have experience practicing these two martial arts together?

eyrie
01-10-2010, 04:15 PM
I work at a school where taekwondo (WTF Moo Duk Kwan) is taught to most of the students. Our taekwondo instructor teaches adult weekend classes, and I'm thinking about joining up. It looks like a lot of fun, and I think it would be cool to have this in common with my students at school. My question is, could this cause problems for me as an aikidoist? Does anyone here have experience practicing these two martial arts together? I did TKD back in the early 80's. Personally, I found it somewhat limiting. Not sure if Moo Duk Kwan still teaches some of the old (original) stuff... probably not, if they're part of WTF now.

Surely, there are other "cool" things you could find in common with your students? Seems like a stretch to want to do TKD just to have something in common. Just sayin'... :)

OwlMatt
01-10-2010, 05:04 PM
May I ask what you mean by "limiting"?

John Connolly
01-10-2010, 05:38 PM
It's point fighting, slappy kicking, UNLESS you are learning an older style (rare to never in the states). TKD is often referred to as Take My Dough, due to the million belt colors and stripes that one gets to pay for as they "progress" further in the system.

Muay Thai or Kyokushin for my buck. TKD never. :crazy:

eyrie
01-10-2010, 05:55 PM
It's point fighting, slappy kicking, UNLESS you are learning an older style Thanks John... exactly what I meant by "limiting". :D

IF i wanted to do the slappy, tappy thing, it'd be old-style Okinawan Kempo, or old-style Hapkido for my money. Which is why I said, surely there are other ways to find something in common with others... Martial arts is a generic enough subject to have in common, without being too specific. :p

OwlMatt
01-10-2010, 06:18 PM
Let me stress, before we start calling all TKD instructors charlatans and snake oil salesmen, that the instructor to whom I am referring is a coworker of mine. He is an excellent teacher (I see him at work on a regular basis), he has done wonders for some of my students, and he has a background in several different martial arts. Besides that, the fee I would be paying would be quite minimal.

My real question here is whether or not adding a linear striking and kicking art to my regimen would adversely affect my aikido training. Does anyone have experience with this?

gdandscompserv
01-10-2010, 06:35 PM
Can't hurt to try it. I took a semester of a Korean style while I was in college. The instructor was VERY good.

eyrie
01-10-2010, 07:10 PM
Ah, so... your motivation wasn't really to find something in common with your students, but whether the "linear" striking and kicking art would add to/detract from what you already do. BTW, neither John nor I were disparaging TKD, your colleague or TKD instructors in general. I believe John was merely stating a commonly acknowledged fact - it's probably the same everywhere else in the world, particularly since the official inclusion of TKD in the Sydney Olympics in 2000.

FWIW, the mechanics of striking and kicking in TKD (as I learnt it back then) are vastly different to aikido. The emphasis was largely on generating power by isolating and twisting the hips - which is all wrong.

BTW, there are many circular striking and kicking techniques in (old style) TKD. Whether that is taught these days and by whom, is another issue. Old-style TKD also included rudimentary (standing, seated and kneeling) grappling - akin to, but nowhere near as sophisticated as jujitsu, hapkido, kuk sul or hwarang. I believe these were originally adapted specifically for military and civilian defence use - i.e. basic CQC for the Korean army's BMT trainees.

Honestly, if it's merely for fun - as a "cool" way to interact with your students out of class, and to get to know your colleague better, then go for it. Learning something is always better than learning nothing - even if what you learn is not entirely compatible, you've still learnt something, haven't you? ;)

If anything, those side splits and kicking drills does wonders for building leg strength and flexibility.

OwlMatt
01-10-2010, 07:26 PM
Nearly all schools of taekwondo today teach at least some grappling-style self-defense (called hosinsul), but ITF taekwondo works more on that than WTF taekwondo. If I wasn't already practicing aikido and was going to pursue taekwondo singularly, I would find a more traditional ITF dojang. But since I'm already getting plenty of that, I'm not too worried.

What worries me is the prospect of confusing myself by trying to learn two very different martial arts at the same time.

JW
01-10-2010, 08:22 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb here. I feel weird b/c at this stage I would not follow this advice. That is specifically because I am working on internal strength and connection. Most aikido (the way it is traditionally taught) does NOT teach these things explicitly, and most teachers go without them.. so I will tell you my story from the point of view I had when I started traditional aikido and didn't know anything about internal strength, in case it might apply to your situation as it did to mine.
I did TKD before I did aikido. It put me way ahead of other new aikido students. This is because I knew things about my body that were made clear very quickly in just 4 years of TKD. These are muscular things that are sometimes called "external" movements. The ability to strike with precision and power with several parts of my body was a huge benefit to me as most aikido schools do not produce students who can out-strike most TKD students (as far as I have seen. I am not well-traveled though). The sparring experience made me feel aikido waza in more realistic ways (when you know what can happen to you if you are in a certain arrangement with your partner, you stay in smarter spots).

I really didn't feel it was "totally different" -- more like the 2 arts complemented each other for me. They work in 2 different ranges, and one is more striking vs the other more grappling. In other words they can work together to make you more well-rounded.

To sum up-- aikido as an external art does not make you very well-rounded unless your sensei is exceptional (though maybe yours is). In this situation, your experience will be enriched I think.
--Jonathan Wong

eyrie
01-10-2010, 09:27 PM
They work in 2 different ranges, and one is more striking vs the other more grappling. Bear in mind, modern TKD has a far higher percentage of kicking techniques, compared to hand techniques, in its repertoire than its predecessor - due to the philosophical and technical premise that the leg has a longer reach than the arm. It is a long range style - but it should be qualified that it is predicated on use of long range kicking techniques, since you can have both long range hand techniques, as well as short-range kicking techniques - the latter having since been removed from the syllabus of modern "dojangs" who are solely focussed on producing State, National and Olympic level competitors.

Aikido is NOT a close range art. It's in an entirely different category of its own. That it *could*, or even should, be used at any range, is a matter of opinion - depending on who you talk to.

A well-rounded style (as the MMAers love to say) would include all ranges - long, close and ground - which usually involves a combination of Muay Thai, boxing and BJJ - and for good reason.

It all depends on one's rationale, purpose, and personal preference for doing one art/style over another. I too started TKD before doing Aikido (I was young and obstreperous and my parents made me do it). TKD can certainly provide some grounding in hand and foot techniques, but is it rational to combine the 2, in a way that seamlessly complements the other? I think that would depend strongly on each individual's abilities. In any case, the power generation mechanics are vastly different in both arts (or perhaps it was how it was taught to me... by someone who didn't know any better).

Personally, and practically, I can't fathom the logic of training one way, and then training in a completely different way.

Would I go back to TKD? Not likely. But would I look to Aikido for IS development. Not really either. Not that we are talking about IS development here anyway. Besides, why must a discussion of IS development encroach on every topic on Aikiweb?

Pat Togher
01-11-2010, 11:28 AM
I did TKD up to near Dan level about 15 years ago, and really enjoyed it. My instructor is a former Korean Marine Corps martial arts instructor and taught in the Moo Duk Kwan style. Slower movements than the more popular olympic style, but quite powerful. I still try to visit himn when I am back in home.

The more traditional styles have strong similarities to Shotokan to my eyes. It's most visible in the older kata sets, but still pretty clear in the new wtf Tae Guek form set. I'd suggest stopping by for a class and seeing if you find something valuable. Oh, stretch those hamstrings well, and avoid the partner stretches :)

gdandscompserv
01-11-2010, 01:22 PM
Oh, stretch those hamstrings well, and avoid the partner stretches :)
Ah yes, I remember those painfully well.:eek:

JW
01-11-2010, 01:42 PM
Aikido is NOT a close range art. It's in an entirely different category of its own. That it *could*, or even should, be used at any range, is a matter of opinion - depending on who you talk to.
I actually agree. But as popularly taught (without knowing more, this is the most likely situation in the OP's case), it is almost exclusively composed of medium-to-close range techniques.

In any case, the power generation mechanics are vastly different in both arts
That's the 2nd time you've said that in this thread, which is one of the 2 reasons I thought it was ok to put the IS comments in the thread (sorry about that, you are right.. but when something is on your mind I guess you see it everywhere).

My point is, if taught the way I was taught at first, the power generation in TKD and aikido is not different. They both talked about hips as power generators, and had cursory mentions of the "center." As far as I can tell, this is common.
I may not agree with using the hips like that anymore, which is why I said I am at a different place now than when I did TKD and started aikido. But at the time, as they were both taught, they complemented well for me.

And another complementing similarity, this deserves a big mention, both arts strive for a state of engagement that is not based on reaction-- but rather, a real-time, constructive changing of the dynamic. Well, everything probably strives for this. Point is, in sparring practice (restriction to mostly kicks makes for a simpler situation), you actually practice wrestling with this difficult state of being. That will help your mindset in aikido, where unless we are doing Tomiki style, we are left with only our efforts to pretend that we are in a dangerous engagement. You get better at pretending if you spar.
--JW

lbb
01-11-2010, 03:52 PM
Bear in mind, modern TKD has a far higher percentage of kicking techniques, compared to hand techniques, in its repertoire than its predecessor - due to the philosophical and technical premise that the leg has a longer reach than the arm.

I'd say, rather, that kicking is emphasized because that's where you get the most points in WTF-style sparring matches, and that's what most TKD schools are all about these days.

I'm sure there is still good stuff out there being taught under the banner of TKD, and if you know of such a school and instructor, go for it. A striking style where you do actual sparring and really get hit, even with protective gear, is good experience. Your response is not always all that elegant, but you do learn to do something rather than freeze and stand there.

ninjaqutie
01-12-2010, 05:49 PM
I'd say if it interests you, give it a shot.

Howard Popkin
01-12-2010, 06:50 PM
Any system or style has good and bad instuctors.

I have no issues with any style, per say.... and don't kid yourselves...you'd love to throw a head kick if you could.

I personally trained Tae Kwon Do(although it was very close to Karate) with Grandmaster James Roberts Jr. in Washington D.C. If I lived there, I'd still be training with him. He is a superior martial artist and a superior person.

AND MAN CAN HE PUNCH AND KICK !!!!!!

REgards,

Howard

Tim Fong
01-14-2010, 02:37 AM
It's point fighting, slappy kicking, UNLESS you are learning an older style (rare to never in the states). TKD is often referred to as Take My Dough, due to the million belt colors and stripes that one gets to pay for as they "progress" further in the system.

Muay Thai or Kyokushin for my buck. TKD never. :crazy:

John,
I agree that overall the Olympic-style TKD base is not conducive to fighting under a less restrictive ruleset.

I am not sure who you've trained/fought in the modern TKD community, and there is a lot of bad TKD out there. However, at the national collegiate/international level there are some very good athletes who can kick _very_ hard within the confines of their ruleset. At least, that was my experience when I trained with people who were at that level.

Now, they don't have leg kicks and they don't have face punching, nor do they score punches to the body very much. Olympic style has a lot of drills to build anaerobic endurance as well as foot speed. They also have specialized drills to teach counter kicking and body fakes, which, tactically, I think can help a fighter gain and keep the initiative at long range. With Olympic style you have a very deep talent pool so the tactics they develop are very sophisticated-- lots of highly athletic, strong and conditioned people aiming for a gold medal at the Olympics.

Clearly, under a less restrictive ruleset, the Olympic style fighters as they stand will lose. Kickboxing requires an inside clinch game/punching game/leg kicks etc.

The counterkicking game and some of the elusive spinning setups are seen sometimes in kickboxing or even some Kyokushin matches. It's totally low percentage of course.

There is also at least one relatively prominent muay thai coach in the USA who also has a TKD background. I understand he uses the counter kicking strategies (modified) with his fighters.

Still, the twisting movement (upper body one way/lower body the other) that most TKD people use to power their kicks is pretty much at odds with internal training, at least at my level. I'm told at the advanced IMA level there is the dragon body where the lower body goes one way and the upper another , but still connected. No comment on that, except to say, I'm not there yet =)

dalen7
01-14-2010, 06:21 AM
First,
you seemed pretty psyched about doing it... so go for it!
If your interested is what is key... :)

Here is my perspective on TKD.

- Its sure to get you in shape
- Increase your flexiblity
- and can be fun for competitions.

I knew a Korean who learned it in the military and he said the way to make it work is to snap... be fast... [it seemed that he thought that 'snap' was lacking outside of the Korean military.]

Anyway, personally I see high kicks as a way to throw you on the ground. Even in Thai Boxing my first instinct is to catch the leg as it comes at me.

Personally I see kicks as good if they are knee and below, and knees as a more effective means of using legs with striking techniques. [Thats why I have an interest in Thai Boxing... elbows and primarily knees - though a properly landed kick will hurt, I have yet to have a kick that did hurt... thankfully] ;)

What Im dealing with is punches to the face. ;)

As for messing with your Aikido, I think it can only help.

The fact is that Aikido is only one aspect of 'martial arts'... like yin and yang. You are bound to learn something useful, even if its philosophical.

Again, I would not mind being able to do high kicks... [my Thai kicks are less than desirable to look at]

Bottom line is you see a connection with this art and that of where you work, your school... by all means build up on that connection in order to relate and again to learn.

As for snake-oil, whatever, you could claim that any martial art is trying to milk you for money... only you can know what your getting and if its good. [you will know, as there is more to things than just learning a technique, who knows what lesson life wants to teach with any given circumstance] :)

Enjoy and let us know how it goes!

Peace

dAlen

ninjaqutie
01-14-2010, 03:36 PM
As long as you are able to seperate the differences (if one isn't suitable for the other) then you will be fine. Like I said before, go for it. You will never know unless you try. Personally, I have always wanted to do TKD just for fun.

Shane Goodrich
01-22-2010, 11:17 PM
Some schools of Hapkido are like a combination of TKD and Aikido. There are more modern Hapkido schools that mix in Judo and other stuff, but more traditional Hapkido schools are a mix of TKD and Aikido. If you think Hapkido is vaild, then way not add TKD to your Aikido mix, of course the TKD could be a lot different than the TKD that was use when created Hapkido.

John Connolly
01-23-2010, 01:10 PM
Shane-- SOME schools of Hapkido are TKD mixed with Aikido and Judo-like grappling or whatever.

Hapkido which has any direct ties to Choi or Ji has different kicking mechanics and strategy than TKD, and the grappling, while outwardly similar to Aikido/Judo, just ain't the same stuff.

YMMV

Tim-- I spent a good amount of time in the Korean MA community in the 90s, and have lots of anecdotes about TKD, but am loathe to pile on more ridicule or derision. I think I said my piece earlier. I do agree w/ your assessment of TKD to some extent. I just don't think TKD develops competent fighting techniques at a high percentage.

SteliosPapadakis
01-07-2011, 02:58 AM
Sorry to be raising this thread back from the dead...but there is something that has been painfully eating away at my skull insides lately...
i have been learning Aikido for 7 years now and i am a father of two.
My older lad, aged 4 at the moment, has been doing some basic things with me like small tumbling, basic ikkyo, basic face punch deflection, that sort of things...
But i can tell that doing such things with me (always in the form of a game to keep him interested) will eventually bore him after 5 minutes or so. The child has trementous amounts of energy in him so i was thinking of getting/starting him in a real Aikido class. Sadly, though, there is no Aikido for kids in our city and -judging from my experience- kids do not stay for more than a couple of times in our dojo. Kids simply want other kids to be there to train-play with them. Older students will not train with children (sadly) and children lose interset quite fast...On top of that i am very concerned with his developing joints. Even though i have done extensive research on whether children's joints should or should not be treated in an Aikido class the way we normally do, i am yet to reach a conclusion...
In my city almost every single martial art is represented by one or more dojos yet the only teachers i know and trust are one teaching Shotokan Karate and one teaching traditional style Tae Kwon Do. The latter actually deals only with children starting them at the age of 4 onwards till late adolesence. I know he looks after them a lot and no injuries have been mentioned that i know of.
So, bearing all that in mind, i have been thinking of introducing him to TKD at this early age and then later, if he wants, to incorporate Aikido in his life. This can be difficult, though, as most guys that joined our Aikido classes in the past and had another martial art's background usually struggled to make their bodies flow and blend. Most never actually accomplished it...
Any ideas?

HL1978
01-07-2011, 06:42 AM
Any ideas?

You can look into a kids judo class as well. They will at least learn how to fall/roll/

SteliosPapadakis
01-07-2011, 06:51 AM
You can look into a kids judo class as well. They will at least learn how to fall/roll/

Thank you for the advice, Hunter.
To tell you the truth i thought about this, but my problem is that the teachers around here, although they claim to teach Judo, are also teaching (the very same teachers) BJJ, JJ, kick-boxing, tai-boxing, submission grapling, "modern" Karate etc. The same teacher ends up teaching 25 different arts, something that (at least for me) cries out : I know not much about any of them!
So the question still stands...

ninjaqutie
01-07-2011, 06:03 PM
Some TKD schools do takedowns and throws. Just ask around and watch a few classes at different places. I don't see the harm in it provided the instructor will give them a strong sense of morals along the way. Its easier to pick up then aikido and getting all the pretty belts may be an incentive to your kid till he matures a bit more. :)

odudog
01-07-2011, 09:08 PM
Sorry to be raising this thread back from the dead...but there is something that has been painfully eating away at my skull insides lately...
i have been learning Aikido for 7 years now and i am a father of two.
My older lad, aged 4 at the moment, has been doing some basic things with me like small tumbling, basic ikkyo, basic face punch deflection, that sort of things...
But i can tell that doing such things with me (always in the form of a game to keep him interested) will eventually bore him after 5 minutes or so. The child has trementous amounts of energy in him so i was thinking of getting/starting him in a real Aikido class. Sadly, though, there is no Aikido for kids in our city and -judging from my experience- kids do not stay for more than a couple of times in our dojo. Kids simply want other kids to be there to train-play with them. Older students will not train with children (sadly) and children lose interset quite fast...On top of that i am very concerned with his developing joints. Even though i have done extensive research on whether children's joints should or should not be treated in an Aikido class the way we normally do, i am yet to reach a conclusion...
In my city almost every single martial art is represented by one or more dojos yet the only teachers i know and trust are one teaching Shotokan Karate and one teaching traditional style Tae Kwon Do. The latter actually deals only with children starting them at the age of 4 onwards till late adolesence. I know he looks after them a lot and no injuries have been mentioned that i know of.
So, bearing all that in mind, i have been thinking of introducing him to TKD at this early age and then later, if he wants, to incorporate Aikido in his life. This can be difficult, though, as most guys that joined our Aikido classes in the past and had another martial art's background usually struggled to make their bodies flow and blend. Most never actually accomplished it...
Any ideas?

I am in the same situation as you although my kids are nine. They have seen me doing Aikido for years now so they know what it is but both of them are scared of the flips and stuff. I just recently signed my son up for TKD. I wanted Karate for we are a Japanese family but none exist here. He likes the TKD so far after 1 week of classes. I am also hoping to switch him and hopefully her over to Aikido when they get around 15. Sign your child up for the Karate or TKD, which ever one you feel most comfortable with. The stretching and discipline will be needed later on if you can get him or her to switch to Aikido. You can also let him or her see you doing Aikido so that he or she will still learn from a distance. My kids have picked up Aikido just from watching over the years.