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Kat.C
04-14-2002, 01:24 PM
I have tried to write this question about ten times now but can't seem to word it right:disgust: It might be a little long but just bear with me please.
I experienced fear and shock when I was attacked and just panicked and put up a rather useless struggle. I did not have any martial arts training at the time but even if I had would it have done me any good? I wonder if even when I have achieved a high level of skill(if I ever do) would it really help if I ever needed those skills? Will aikido just train my body or would it train my mind too so that I would be able to work through the fear and avoid the panic? Or would I need to train my mind in another way?
Or would my body just react despite what my mind is doing? Does anyone know or have an idea?

guest1234
04-14-2002, 02:06 PM
Hi Kat,

Of course there are no sure things in life, and every person and dojo is different, but I think your mind gets training as well as your body.

I think training encourages an awareness and bearing that would (a) keep you out of dangerous situations, (b) make you seem a less good target, (c) help you remain calm if the worst thing happens.

This calmness thing was what I was looking for in Aikido (am looking for). I am the picture of calm in a medical emergency, or with airfield sirens going, but let a few disasters happen in my personal life and it was instant inner turmoil. I saw this on the mat in how I was if my partner was really aggresive in his attack. One yudansha at my last dojo would sneak up behind and suddenly grab me, or kiai as he grabbed, or put full strength into the grab the second he touched me...for about a year I'd be like a rabbit, jump and stiffen up.

Now, two years later, I am soooo much better at not getting stiff, no matter how much my partner yells or how hard or fast he grabs. I don't know that it doesn't startle me just as much, but I don't let that control my thoughts.

erikmenzel
04-14-2002, 02:26 PM
Dear Kat,

the answer probably isnt easy in this case.
When I was attacked in the Netherlands, my training automaticaly kicked in, even though I experienced a great amount of fear at that time. As for panic, well it was there but it never was able to reach the surface until afterwards. Whether this could be contributed to my training is of course hard to find out afterwards.

From other people I have heard all different kinds of experiences which tend to make me believe that there are as many different responses and reactions as there are people.
I heard of (from) beginners (having had only one or two lessons) that were able to bang their attecker into the wall using ikkyo and I heard from a yondan that he completely froze and paniced when attacked. (I even heard of someone doing a perfect kotegaeshi when attacked with a knife and giving the knife back to his confused, scared and desorientated attacker).

Maybe your training can just help you controling some of the normal reactions one can experience.
Another thing which can easily happen with your training is that you might be more aware of what is going to happen, being more honest towards your instincts and make you avoid trouble or make you leave before the shit hits the ven.

BTW, even though I was victorious when attacked (translation into Aikido language: I used some techniques to create enough time for me to run away, very very fast, so I suvived), I still needed some mental guidance afterwards (partly to come to grips with the responsability you have as an Aikidoka, could not stop thinking about "what if I had killed one of my attackers" and "Didnt I use to much violance").

I hope this answer can help you a bit.

As for your reaction when being attacked again: I hope and pray you will never have to find out.

Kat.C
04-14-2002, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by erikknoops
Dear Kat,



Another thing which can easily happen with your training is that you might be more aware of what is going to happen, being more honest towards your instincts and make you avoid trouble or make you leave before the shit hits the ven.

My instincts are so screwed up as to be entirely usless. You're right about training keeping you out of trouble. One of the things I learned in karate and perhaps the most valuable lesson sensei gave me was to avoid dangerous situations. Also during sparring I was continually reminded of my lack of fighting skills which encouraged me to be more careful.

As for your reaction when being attacked again: I hope and pray you will never have to find out.
I hope not too. It is less likely to happen now as my attacks were brought on due to my stupidity in putting my self in unsafe situations. I have I believe grown wiser.
By the way Colleen that is my problem too, I continually tense up when I train and must force:freaky: myself to relax.

Jim ashby
04-14-2002, 03:24 PM
All we are doing in the physical training is conditioning reflexes. A couple of books which may help you "train the mind" are In the gravest extreme by Massad Ayoob and Feel the fear and do it anyway (don't know who this is by). Neither of these books are anything to do with Aikido. What they are to do with is using the adrenalin rush, getting used to it and getting on top of situations. Whether they change your perceptions or training does it is entirely up to you. I used to compete in national competitions and the adrenaline was my friend. Like I said it's up to you.
Have fun.

PeterR
04-14-2002, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Jim ashby
All we are doing in the physical training is conditioning reflexes.

Hi Jim;

Just a short quip but I believe in the dojo we are training the mind. The physical exercises are just the process with the conditioned reflexes a by-product.

As for Kat's dilemma it all depends on the dojo training environment. Really hard to answer her without knowing more.

Cheers

shihonage
04-14-2002, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by Kat.C
I have tried to write this question about ten times now but can't seem to word it right:disgust: It might be a little long but just bear with me please.
I experienced fear and shock when I was attacked and just panicked and put up a rather useless struggle. I did not have any martial arts training at the time but even if I had would it have done me any good? I wonder if even when I have achieved a high level of skill(if I ever do) would it really help if I ever needed those skills? Will aikido just train my body or would it train my mind too so that I would be able to work through the fear and avoid the panic? Or would I need to train my mind in another way?
Or would my body just react despite what my mind is doing? Does anyone know or have an idea?

Good question.

You need to recognize the andrenal dump for what it is, and have some techniques that are going to work when all you have left is a good ol' tunnel vision and gross motor skills.

Realistic self-defense schools replicate real-life scenarios for a good reason - to get you used to this chemical reaction which occurs as you decide whether to fight or flight ... to deal with it and still be able to fight.

Aikido does not teach that. How to stay calm and/or to deal with the ensuing chemical changes in your body, remains up to you.

Kat.C
04-14-2002, 10:10 PM
:confused: WHY is it that I always want to know the answers to questions that DON'T have answers?:rolleyes:

MaylandL
04-14-2002, 10:53 PM
I can only speak from personal experience as training practices and philosophies are likely to vary across dojos.

The dojos that I train at do help you develop the right mental attidtude to perform a technique correctly. However, we dont train in a realistic self defence situation or train to deal with the emotional, biochemical and physiological changes that happens in a "self defence situation". From this perspective I agree with Aleksey's post.

However, I would also agree with the posts of others such as Jim. We are training to condition our reflexes.

I am of the belief that self defence is not necessarily an outcome of martial arts. I have read many newspaper reports and seen news reports of martial arts experts confronting intruders in their own driveways only to end up in hospital with serious injuries. On the flip side there are many other stories where the martial artist has avoided serious injury.

The poit is that martial arts training does not always condition the mind to deal with a self defence situation. It really depends on how training is conducted within the dojo that you train at.

I'm sure that there are self defence courses that will address that very issue that you are interested in.

Yours in aiki and happy training

nikonl
04-14-2002, 10:56 PM
Let me tell you the mother of all answers...: AIKIDO IS GOOD!!! :D

guest1234
04-14-2002, 11:15 PM
Yes, what Leslie said, most definately!!! :D

Bruce Baker
04-15-2002, 06:08 AM
On some levels of perception, Aikido must train the mind.

Just trying to capture the clarity of no thought while letting the lessons of class sink in for randori, while trying to remember these are my friends not a street fight where any thing goes, is in many ways training for mind and body as it is not?

Being blessed ( I don't really mean it ... cynic comment) with Meniere's I have had the random emergences of frightening paronoia, but somehow remained in control? Whether that was from being in the moment or making the moment more important than my fear, I don't know?

Your fears are something you have to confront, analyze, pick apart, and get a personal understanding of for your own well being. If than means getting professional help, then get that understanding from where ever it can come from?

Some confidence and awareness, I think, comes from learning Aikido as it does from other martial arts. But your personal confrontation with fear ... Some times just identifying the fear is the first step to using it. Only a fool is not afraid.

Aikido must train the mind, at least within the context of confidence, but I would guess it is how you use it to make your life better that makes the difference.

Not much help to your circumstance? Sorry.
I do believe if we persist, we will find the answers we need.

(Rolling Stones Quote: You can't always get what you want, you get what you need.)

guest1234
04-15-2002, 06:19 AM
Bruce,

I am becoming very frightened for you. Please, please, please see another doctor. Meniere's does not cause paranoia, although I am not surprised to hear you have been occasionally afflicted with it. It shows in your posts, to the point I was concerned how liable folks would be for ignoring what you say and how you say it. But to prove me wrong, do me this favor: take copies of them, and go see your doctor. Explain how we've been treating you. Please.

Kat.C
04-15-2002, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by nikon
Let me tell you the mother of all answers...: AIKIDO IS GOOD!!! :D

:D Agreed.
I think I will just assume that after I have been practicing for some years, my lovely aiki aura will ensure that no one wishes to bother me:) failing that however, my lovely aiki reflexes will kick in enabling me to blend, and restore harmony;)

(Just in case my aiki aura and reflexes fail I will focus on ukemi,buy some pepper spray and perhaps I will take up running as well.) :D

On a more serious note thanks for your replies everyone, alot of good points and suggestions.
I know self-defense courses can be effective as they make it as real as possible, but that does not appeal to me at all,I do not wish to be scared on a regular basis! Most of them at the end of the course stage an attack on you, with you not knowing where or when. I would live in absolute dread of that:eek:
Self-defense isn't the main reason why I want to do aikido, but I will be training with that in mind as well. For now I will focus on training hard and having fun:)

I will also exercise some restraint and not post too many silly questions here :blush:

Chuck.Gordon
04-15-2002, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Kat.C
Will aikido just train my body or would it train my mind too so that I would be able to work through the fear and avoid the panic? Or would I need to train my mind in another way?
Or would my body just react despite what my mind is doing? Does anyone know or have an idea?

Depends on many factors. How vigorous is your training? How much time and attention is paid to the self-defense aspects (in most cases and for the most part, not really the stuff you learn in day-to-day classes)?

On the other hand, continued, dedicated, occasionally rigorous training in any physical discipline involving body contact and potential violence (yep, getting hit with a planet is pretty damn violent), will 'train your mind' to deal with such situations.

In my experience, nothing trains the mind to endure and deal with violent attack quite like violent attack. However, lest we wind up with a bunch of Pink Panther/Kato scenarios, I'd suggest looking into some good koryu weapons training after you get your aikido feet firmly on the ground.

Short of Boot Camp, there's nothing quite like the intensity working at the end of a stick or pointy thing to get you ready to defend against real violence.

Chuck

Kat.C
04-15-2002, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by LOEP


.

In my experience, nothing trains the mind to endure and deal with violent attack quite like violent attack. However, lest we wind up with a bunch of Pink Panther/Kato scenarios, I'd suggest looking into some good koryu weapons training after you get your aikido feet firmly on the ground.

Short of Boot Camp, there's nothing quite like the intensity working at the end of a stick or pointy thing to get you ready to defend against real violence.

Chuck

Hi Chuck, thanks for the great idea!:) I recall feeling a bit on edge whenever I trained with my bo in karate, well during kumite that is. I will have to see about that once I'm grounded in aikido. Umm, just one question, what is koryu (koryu weapons)?

Chuck.Gordon
04-15-2002, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by Kat.C

once I'm grounded in aikido. Umm, just one question, what is koryu (koryu weapons)?

Koryu means (more or less) old style. KOryu arts are the older (generally) systems evolved from what the Japanese warrior actually did to survive. This is NOT to say that koryu is 'combat' art only. It has more to do with the era and background from which the system sprang than anything else.

Koryu budo, then, are the older systems, sometimes categorized as any budo developed and systematized before Meiji. There are exceptions and that is only a rule of thumb.

Examples include Takenouchi Ryu jujutsu (arguably one of the oldest extant jujutsu systems around, includes sword, long arms, dagger, etc), Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (oft called kenjutsu, but in fact, encompasses weapons, unarmed and other aspects of combat), Kashima Shinryu (another sogo or comprehensive budo), Hoki Ryu (sword and, to some extent, jujutsu), etc. Some iai systems also are koryu (Muso Shinden Ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, etc).

Shin budo or gendai budo are 'new' budo. Usually, but not always, gendai budo are arts organized or RE-organized to emphasize the 'do' rather than the 'jutsu' aspects of training. Note, however, that that is a slippery slope and the distinction between DO and JUTSU is very, very grey and not at all as clear as some folks would like it to be.

Gendai budo include Kodokan Judo, Ueshiba's aikido, modern kendo, ZenKen iaido and jodo, Shotokan karate, etc.

There's some strong evidence that some of the gendai budo were re-tailored specifically to de-emphasize the militaristic aspects that crept in during the Japanese buildup prior to World War II (Ueshiba's aikido amongst 'em).

That's not to say they were de-natured, but that the outward aspects were designed to make them more palatable to the masses rather than a few seriously twisted budo bums and koryu bunnies. Like me and Peter Boylan.

A lot of bandwidth has been occupied talking about the differences tween koryu and gendai, and largely it's a matter of attitude and sometimes application.

Best advice is to train hard in your chosen art (and aikido is a GREAT gateway drug to the koryu!) and then seek out good koryu teachers.

Chuck

Lyle Bogin
04-15-2002, 11:09 AM
To answer the original question, I believe aikido provides the opportunity for the practitioner to train their mind. It is a matter of self guidance.

As for myself, I took almost 2 years off from sparring to train in strength and aikido. Now that I have returned to it, eventhough I did not train for sparring specifically, I see vast improvenments in my ability to see my partner's openings, to remain calm under pressure or pain, and to see what is really going on and let my movement come naturally. My tools are much more useful, now that my mind has caught up to my body a bit. Also, I can honestly evaluate my flaws, since I am no longer concerned with winning but rather learning, experimenting, and having fun.

As for actual attacks off the mat, it has been a long time. I've had them and never been hurt, but I see no guarantees. If I think about it, it is on the mat (especially in my journies through kung fu and kickboxing) that I have received the most injuries and had the toughest fights. I am aware of the trap that one can fall into if they contantly struggle to aquire techniques that guarantee their safety on the street. There are many things that can help, but the danger of obsessing over the direct (rather than abstract) practical application of each technique or exercise you perform can lead you away from from what I consider to be the big picture of unity of mind, body, and spirit. Or it could save your life.

creinig
04-15-2002, 11:31 AM
I'm doing Aikido for not quite 6 months now (i.e. "bloody beginner" status :), but perhaps some impressions of a novice might be helpful in your situation.

I'm more and more noticing that my Aikido training changes the way I "think about" a fight. I mean, I'm more aware of how I'd leave openings for an attacker if I'd do xy, how the distance to an attacker affects my chances etc. I also slowly learn how to move out of the way of an attack and how that's better than trying to land some kind of punch as quickly as possible.

Now closing in on your "training the mind" question: Hmm. Actually I think I'd be more unsure in a fight now than before starting with Aikido, because I now see how dumb and dangerous most of my "instinctive" reactions are :)
But I guess that will settle when I become more proficient in the art, when the "correct" reactions become kind of instinctive themselves.

As to doing anti-fright training, I think that Aikido *can* really help you with this *if* you place some emphasis in your training on it. That's very much in your own hands. One suggestion would be e.g. to get the basics down and when you're familiar enough with at least one technique to pick an uke you trust [1] and let him attack in a more fierce and/or sudden way. That'll let you have a push of adrenaline and a situation where you are attacked somehow realistically while you are (1) in a safe environment (mats on the floor etc :) and (2) completely in control (just say "stop" and it's over).

[1]: Ideally this would be anyone in your dojo, but life might not be that simple :)

Kat.C
04-15-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by LOEP


Koryu means (more or less) old style. KOryu arts are the older (generally) systems evolved from what the Japanese warrior actually did to survive. This is NOT to say that koryu is 'combat' art only. It has more to do with the era and background from which the system sprang than anything else.

Koryu budo, then, are the older systems, sometimes categorized as any budo developed and systematized before Meiji. There are exceptions and that is only a rule of thumb.

Examples include Takenouchi Ryu jujutsu (arguably one of the oldest extant jujutsu systems around, includes sword, long arms, dagger, etc), Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (oft called kenjutsu, but in fact, encompasses weapons, unarmed and other aspects of combat), Kashima Shinryu (another sogo or comprehensive budo), Hoki Ryu (sword and, to some extent, jujutsu), etc. Some iai systems also are koryu (Muso Shinden Ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, etc).

Shin budo or gendai budo are 'new' budo. Usually, but not always, gendai budo are arts organized or RE-organized to emphasize the 'do' rather than the 'jutsu' aspects of training. Note, however, that that is a slippery slope and the distinction between DO and JUTSU is very, very grey and not at all as clear as some folks would like it to be.

Gendai budo include Kodokan Judo, Ueshiba's aikido, modern kendo, ZenKen iaido and jodo, Shotokan karate, etc.

There's some strong evidence that some of the gendai budo were re-tailored specifically to de-emphasize the militaristic aspects that crept in during the Japanese buildup prior to World War II (Ueshiba's aikido amongst 'em).

That's not to say they were de-natured, but that the outward aspects were designed to make them more palatable to the masses rather than a few seriously twisted budo bums and koryu bunnies. Like me and Peter Boylan.

A lot of bandwidth has been occupied talking about the differences tween koryu and gendai, and largely it's a matter of attitude and sometimes application.

Best advice is to train hard in your chosen art (and aikido is a GREAT gateway drug to the koryu!) and then seek out good koryu teachers.

Chuck

Thank you for taking the time to give me all that information. I think I followed most of that and I will look around on the web to check out specific styles. I will definitely follow your advice and train for a while in aikido before trying any of these. Actually I'm not even sure any are offered around here but I'll check sometime. You mentioned a distinction between 'do' and 'jutsu' I didn't even know there was one. I just thought that the names of some arts ended in 'do' and some in 'jutsu'. If you get a chance would you mind telling me the difference? Or maybe tell me where I could look it up?

Chuck.Gordon
04-15-2002, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Kat.C


Thank you for taking the time to give me all that information ...

You're welcome! Budo history is a serious hobby of mine and I do tend to mouth off at any given opportunity.

What part of the world are you in ... maybe I can make some referrals.

You mentioned a distinction between 'do' and 'jutsu' I didn't even know there was one. I just thought that the names of some arts ended in 'do' and some in 'jutsu'. If you get a chance would you mind telling me the difference? Or maybe tell me where I could look it up?

Do/Michi = Path, Way (also used to denote some streets and lanes in Japan).

Jutsu = Art, science, technique.

Fact of the matter is that there's NOT much difference, and your observation is pretty much spot on. Some folks LIKE the idea that their DO art is vastly superior and oh-so enlightened, unlike those nasty jutsu arts. And some jutsu folks really, really want their arts to be 'combat-effective' and nothing at all like those namby-pamby DO arts ...

Both are ignoring the fact that DO terms were in use by guys doing sword and body stuff way before Meiji and JUTSU has been used to identify arts that are focussed more on the esoteric and spiritual than physical combatives ...

Sigh. What it boils down to is that the old guys in Japan used DO and JUTSU pretty interchangeably much of the time. Some instances, one or the other predominated, but mostly, they were (and are) considered by martial scholars and historians to be complementary facets rather than antagonistic opposites.

Lots of the alleged schism can be traced to the late D. Draeger and his excellent and groundbreaking books on budo. He tried hard to explain things to a western audience, and as a result couched some things in western terms. That's been taken as gospel by some and rather than do as _I_ think Draeger intended and explore more deeply, they are content to say THIS is DO, a morally superior art that has evolved from the barbaric JUTSU arts (or this JUTSU art is superior because it's 'authentic' and 'combat-tested' ...)

It's all pretty much semantic hog, er, whitewash.

I like the idea that what you do in the dojo is JUTSU (technical training, practice, etc) but what you take from the dojo into your life is DO ...

Chuck

Lyle Bogin
04-15-2002, 12:11 PM
"I like the idea that what you do in the dojo is JUTSU (technical training, practice, etc) but what you take from the dojo into your life is DO ..."

This is the best simple differentiation I have read so far.

Thank you :)!

Kat.C
04-15-2002, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by creinig
I'm doing Aikido for not quite 6 months now (i.e. "bloody beginner" status :), but perhaps some impressions of a novice might be helpful in your situation.

Yes your post was very helpful indeed, thank you.:)

As to doing anti-fright training, I think that Aikido *can* really help you with this *if* you place some emphasis in your training on it. That's very much in your own hands. One suggestion would be e.g. to get the basics down and when you're familiar enough with at least one technique to pick an uke you trust [1] and let him attack in a more fierce and/or sudden way. That'll let you have a push of adrenaline and a situation where you are attacked somehow realistically while you are (1) in a safe environment (mats on the floor etc :) and (2) completely in control (just say "stop" and it's over).

This is a good idea, I'll have to try it sometime in the future.

[1]: Ideally this would be anyone in your dojo, but life might not be that simple :)
Maybe after a couple of years I should use someone I don't trust implicitly and make it even more realistic.:D

Don_Modesto
04-15-2002, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Kat.C
I experienced fear and shock when I was attacked and just panicked and put up a rather useless struggle. I did not have any martial arts training at the time but even if I had would it have done me any good?....Will aikido just train my body or would it train my mind too so that I would be able to work through the fear and avoid the panic?

I agree with Mr. Ashby about Massad Ayoob, excellent.

See also, http://www.rmcat.com/

This is Peyton Quinn's site. He is making a career of precisely this issue (at $800 for a weekend seminar). His books* are well worth reading. He has a very critical of martial arts with an insider's knowledge of several (he was a yudansh under the late Toyoda.) His writing style is rough and some may need to work through his "slob appeal" approach, but there are gems in the works.

*A BOUNCERS GUIDE: DEALING WITH THE SUCKER PUNCHER & AMBUSHER and REAL FIGHTING: Adrenal Stress Conditioning Through Scenario Based Training at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Quinn%2C%20Peyton/104-5655404-1844704

Jim ashby
04-15-2002, 01:53 PM
No need to be so formal, call me Jim. I don't take myself too seriously (hence the signoff). There are some useful books by a guy from my hometown, Geoff Thompson, he wrote "watch my back" etc. I have met hin several times, a thoroughly nice man.
Have fun.

Bruce Baker
04-20-2002, 03:11 PM
For you women, Colleen especially, who don't know what Meniere's is or haven't been exposed to it's fear.

British Medical Journal. Best description of what it is and its by products.

Torture of continued physical and hearing noised for thirty years is like being tortured by communists in a prison camp with sound. Don't try it, I have enough disability for all of us.

Please refrain from personal comments about something you know nothing about Colleen. Aikido should be enough to learn to train your mind.

Unless you want to live with the flu and very annoying sounds in your head twentyfour hours a day, for years, and years...

Sorry, had to do it.

Some people just have to be control freaks, and that is the last thing I respond to.

Yeah, the mind is a tricky subject for those who have not traveled to places where they have to use pure will power to greet each day.

Aikido helps too.

Just don't try to poke me in the throat like Terry Dobson's Sensei in Jun's story ... I keep on guard.

Old sailors know to keep on hand for the ship, and one hand to protect yourself? ( Or was that to work? It applys to protection too.)

Kat.C
04-20-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by LOEP
[B]

You're welcome! Budo history is a serious hobby of mine and I do tend to mouth off at any given opportunity.


Hi Chuck! I can't believe I missed this post!:eek: I don't no how it happened but I never noticed 'til today that you had posted an answer to my question! Thank you. Oh, and please talk as much as you want to me about it, it's really interesting.

What part of the world are you in ... maybe I can make some referrals.

I'm in New Brunswick. If you can make any referrals I'd be interested. Although I probably can't get into anything else right now.


Do/Michi = Path, Way (also used to denote some streets and lanes in Japan).

Jutsu = Art, science, technique.

Fact of the matter is that there's NOT much difference, and your observation is pretty much spot on. Some folks LIKE the idea that their DO art is vastly superior and oh-so enlightened, unlike those nasty jutsu arts. And some jutsu folks really, really want their arts to be 'combat-effective' and nothing at all like those namby-pamby DO arts ...

Both are ignoring the fact that DO terms were in use by guys doing sword and body stuff way before Meiji and JUTSU has been used to identify arts that are focussed more on the esoteric and spiritual than physical combatives ...

Sigh. What it boils down to is that the old guys in Japan used DO and JUTSU pretty interchangeably much of the time. Some instances, one or the other predominated, but mostly, they were (and are) considered by martial scholars and historians to be complementary facets rather than antagonistic opposites.

Lots of the alleged schism can be traced to the late D. Draeger and his excellent and groundbreaking books on budo. He tried hard to explain things to a western audience, and as a result couched some things in western terms. That's been taken as gospel by some and rather than do as _I_ think Draeger intended and explore more deeply, they are content to say THIS is DO, a morally superior art that has evolved from the barbaric JUTSU arts (or this JUTSU art is superior because it's 'authentic' and 'combat-tested' ...)

It's all pretty much semantic hog, er, whitewash.

I like the idea that what you do in the dojo is JUTSU (technical training, practice, etc) but what you take from the dojo into your life is DO ...

I like your explanation, it makes a lot of sense. Thank you very much for all the information you've given me.

Kat.C
04-20-2002, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Don_Modesto
[B]

I agree with Mr. Ashby about Massad Ayoob, excellent.

See also, http://www.rmcat.com/

This is Peyton Quinn's site. He is making a career of precisely this issue (at $800 for a weekend seminar). His books* are well worth reading. He has a very critical of martial arts with an insider's knowledge of several (he was a yudansh under the late Toyoda.) His writing style is rough and some may need to work through his "slob appeal" approach, but there are gems in the works.

Well, I took a look at this sight and I'm sure his seminars can be effective but it's definitely not for me. Just thinking about spending a weekend dealing with that kind of fear is scary.
I will check out the books that you and Jim recommended, thanks guys.:)

Bronson
04-20-2002, 11:38 PM
For you women, Colleen especially, who don't know what Meniere's is or haven't been exposed to it's fear. .....Please refrain from personal comments about something you know nothing about Colleen. Aikido should be enough to learn to train your mind.



Alright Bruce, I think that's just about enough. You've done the nearly impossible and actually offended me. In case you've missed it in previous posts, Colleen is a doctor. She has been the most patient person on this forum in dealing with you and has never shown anything but concern for your medical condition. As far as I can tell the only thing she did "wrong" was to tell you to seek other opinions. Gee, sounds like pretty good advice to me. If you don't want to take her advice that's fine. Just say thanks but no thanks and blunder along on your merry way. Don't come onto this PUBLIC forum and tell her that her education and experience mean zilch and that she doesn't know what she's talking about. You don't have that right.

Bronson

guest1234
04-21-2002, 10:33 AM
Thanks, Bronson, but it's OK, that's how Bruce is and I should have known how to communicate with him without provoking him so much. I appreciate your (and other's) comments about my degree... but we all can make mistakes, and mine at least was in misjudging how to talk with Bruce.

I have him on my ignore list, and he may have me on his, but there are some TREATABLE infections that can cause recurring HIGH frequency hearing loss (Meniere's by contrast is usually LOW frequency) and vertigo, and be associated with confusion, memory loss, and paranoia and other psychotic features not associated usuaslly associated with Meniere's. Brain tumors might also cause this constellation. The decision is Bruce's on second opinions.

The organism that causes the treatable Meniere's mimic might be overlooked by doctors other than ID or third-world medicine docs as we rarely see it in the US. I just told a patient last week that his 'incurable' bone disease that has left him crippled and disabled is very likely to be a treatable infection seen in some of the third-world countries I've practiced in, but rarely here. And he had eight different specialists at one of the best schools in the country looking at him. We all make mistakes. Even (especially) me--but no one should take just one (or maybe even two) opinions that they have no hope. Even straight Meniere's, if only affecting one ear, has a surgical option if the medicines don't work and quality of life is too impaired.

SeiserL
05-06-2002, 05:54 PM
IMHO, no, Aikido doea not train the mind, you do. It may be easier to train the mind directly rather than hope the physical training somehow transfers. I tend to want to train both directly rather than hope the knowledge learning transfers and overcome the bad habits of history. For most people, fear and anger the emotions they need to most overcome. Most have been unconsciously educated in the fear based responses of fight, flight, or freeze. Few have learned to respond with flow. Remember, where ever the head goes the body follows.

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD
Ph.D. Psychology

computerdog
06-04-2002, 12:08 PM
I would also like to refer to the book 'Aikido in daily life', only I can not remember the author. You will sertaily find that you train the mind, as long as you train aikido in that way. If you only train the techniques, obviously the mind will not be trained a lot. But if you train aikido as the whole concept you will be able to handle a situation of panic en negative stress in a more effective way.

If you are able to find the book, read it. It helped me so much to find myself, and I am sure it will help others as well... :do:


cheers

SeiserL
06-05-2002, 06:56 PM
I believe that the book recommended is Terry Dobson and Victor Miller's Aikido in Everyday Life: Giving in to Get Your Way North Atlantic Books, 1978, 1993 ISBN 1-55643-151-1 $14.95). Great book. Highly recommend.

I certainly support mental training and extending Aikido's principles beyond the Dojo.

Until again,

Lynn

computerdog
06-06-2002, 10:13 AM
That is the book indeed. Thanks for that. It is the best book I found in quite some time. :)

akiy
06-06-2002, 10:33 AM
From what I've heard of people who knew Terry, he really didn't like the book after it came out...

I was given one of the original "first edition" books that Terry gave to a friend of mine. If I remember correctly, it was called something like "Giving in to Get Your Way: The Attack-tics System of Winning Your Everyday Battles" or somesuch.

-- Jun

Paula Lydon
06-25-2002, 12:06 AM
Just a thought: The mind is undisciplined and the emotions steamroll everything, we see it every day. Our society is not rational/logical/analytically based; just look at politics, entertainment, advertising, ect...How do they manipulate you? Emotions are hardwired into us and very hard to work with.
I was in one dojo for years that actually had times set aside for working on moving the mind and understanding emotional cycles depending on stimulous. Uke had to be sincere, like any attack, because you knew these were your classmates. It was rollplaying, sure, but even if you were aware of that, it still triggered those emotional, chemical reactions when someone glared at you across the room, advanced on you menacingly, slammed you against a wall and yelled in your face or just tried to weedle you into doing something you chose not to do. In a safe environment we got to expierience waves of emotions that otherwise we'd feel for the first time during any sort of intense confrontation or attack. I was pinned to the ground once when my partner made it clear that it wasn't a game...I can't begin to tell you all what that brought up and out of me!
I think the majority of women have a harder time with such things, just because of pervasive societal conditioning, and these women have more of a mental/emotional challenge walking into martial arts training than the average male, unless they come from a background that conditioned them more outside the 'norm'.
So grab some friends and take turns tapping into those places we don't usually care to go. My old dojo moto was: "Better your friends at the dojo than some creep out there".:ai: :ki: ;) --'Live life like an experiment!'

aiki_what
06-25-2002, 08:03 AM
Why split the two? mind and body that is?

SeiserL
06-25-2002, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by aiki_what
Why split the two? mind and body that is?

The mind and the body are not in actually split. But, because of the way most of us were raised, we tend to think of them as two different things and at times they tend to go in two different (sometime contradictory) directions. The map inside of our heads is not the territory on which we live, but it is how we navigate it.

IMHO, Aikido can help make a better connection or unification of body and mind. But, it may be easier to state where we are instead of where we should be (implied, we aren't there yet) and consciously train both the body and the mind.

I love the reality based scenario adrenalin training mentioned. Yes, it is harder for the female psychology because of how its socialized. So it may be even more important for them to disconnect the fear/freeze triggers. But, everyone can use the desentization experience and the reality check.

Does Aikido train the mind? Not necessarily, but it can.

Until again,

Lynn

PS: I love mental training threads. Not instead of physical training, but as a power adjunct. Nothing replaces sweat, but "where ever the head goes, the body tends to follow."

tedehara
06-27-2002, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by SeiserL

...Does Aikido train the mind? Not necessarily, but it can.

Until again,

Lynn

PS: I love mental training threads. Not instead of physical training, but as a power adjunct. Nothing replaces sweat, but "where ever the head goes, the body tends to follow."
Excellent replies Lynn! :)

In the Ki Society, mind and body coordination training takes up half of the formal instruction curriculum. However it is the basis for all that we do. Informally, it pervades everything we do.

Clear as mud? :confused:

theflyingheadbuttsuplex
08-08-2005, 07:36 PM
I have tried to write this question about ten times now but can't seem to word it right:disgust: It might be a little long but just bear with me please.
I experienced fear and shock when I was attacked and just panicked and put up a rather useless struggle. I did not have any martial arts training at the time but even if I had would it have done me any good? I wonder if even when I have achieved a high level of skill(if I ever do) would it really help if I ever needed those skills? Will aikido just train my body or would it train my mind too so that I would be able to work through the fear and avoid the panic? Or would I need to train my mind in another way?
Or would my body just react despite what my mind is doing? Does anyone know or have an idea?

I believe it will train the mind if you will let it. I've noticed that some instinctual reflexes have changed slightly to my advantage after training for a year.

David Yap
08-08-2005, 10:50 PM
Trains the mind as in being analytical? It depends on the individual, his/her instructor(s) and the dojo environment. Paula said that the mind is undisciplined - I agree. I would add that one has to be mindful and analytical before one can focus on ones action(s), i.e. to discipline ones mind.

Trains the mind as in mind and body coordination. Yes, if one practice long enough, one cultivates "Ki" or muscle memory. I have seen with people with 20 years and more experience in aikido, absolutely good performers but lousy teachers.

Just my 2 sen observation.

Best training

David Y

Meggy Gurova
08-09-2005, 05:01 AM
Talking about self defense... the most important thing a person can do on the street is not to behave like a victim!!! (I have been attacked 4 times).That starts with the way you walk, and that is where aikido can help.
You Kathryn wrote that you didn't have any instincts. I don't believe you. But I don't think you have enough selfasteam. That you need to train! You have to be completely sure you have as much value as any other person on this earth and have the right to live. And that no one can ever put you down emotionally or fiscally, never ever!!!

Krista DeCoste
08-17-2005, 06:58 PM
[My instincts are so screwed up as to be entirely usless. You're right about training keeping you out of trouble. One of the things I learned in karate and perhaps the most valuable lesson sensei gave me was to avoid dangerous situations.]

Kat, I know you have had a wealth of insight in response to your original question and I would like to add this small piece. :rolleyes: Gavin De Becker wrote an wonderful book called, The Gift of Fear. I think this book could help restore your trust in your instincts. As a woman I feel instincts are often all we have to go on when trying to avoid danger. This book is practical and a great read.

I feel aikido does train the mind and help us become more aware of our surroundings, how they move around us and us them...

Great thread.

Krista

James Sloan
08-17-2005, 10:59 PM
Hi Kat
You Make Your AIKIDO Training What It Is . You will get from aikido just what you put into it.
Look up the Japanese word " ZANSHIN " , ask your Sensei what it means. Then look up the word " MUSHIN " . Get a good Japanese English Dictionary. Look for the book by John Stevens
" The Art Of Peace ". Read it EVERY Day, Each time you read it you will see more. Read the book "GO REN NO SHO"
Training is a constant thing it is in your mind. Aikido is a constant struggle for the trouth. You are on the path, as are every person who has answered your post. Take what is good from your teachers, and from those who come after you" your students". O'SENSEI said we should learn even from trees; and the rocks in the stream. Discover your own trouth. Pass what you learn to others, this will give you the greatest lessons. Learn and forget. Clense the five senses MISOGI. Love People!! No one is perfect. Learn from your mistakes, and from those of others. Forgive everyone in advanse. Empty your mind so that it can be filled up with the good stuff. AIKIDO IS THE GOOD STUFF. Good Training!!!

Saturn
10-21-2005, 04:27 PM
Forget about the street altogether. You never know when an attack may come, who cares anyway. Use some intelligence and stay out of dark alleys and biker bars. As for techniques, don't worry about using it- ever, you'll only end up clinging to fear and forget about the point of Aikido. The more often you train, without self-conciousness the more these things become reflexive. When attacked, punched or kicked I am sure everyone has gotten at least one hit in, and that probably came from nessecity. With Aikido on your belt you the spectrum of what you are capable of doing will come naturally from NESSECITY when attacked. In a fight don't woory about which arm will swing at you because you can't know, feel adrenaline and for one thing you don't want to get hit, so instinctivly you will try to defend yourself, who knows, you may suprise yourself.

Saturn
10-29-2005, 12:03 PM
any replies

Dirk Hanss
10-29-2005, 02:18 PM
any replies
Treveor,
maybe I misunderstood something but to me it looks as if you tried to hijack the post. I cannot see any connection to the mind training question.

So no other comments here.

Maybe you start Yet Another Real Life thread.

Dirk

Ketsan
10-29-2005, 08:19 PM
I have tried to write this question about ten times now but can't seem to word it right:disgust: It might be a little long but just bear with me please.
I experienced fear and shock when I was attacked and just panicked and put up a rather useless struggle. I did not have any martial arts training at the time but even if I had would it have done me any good? I wonder if even when I have achieved a high level of skill(if I ever do) would it really help if I ever needed those skills? Will aikido just train my body or would it train my mind too so that I would be able to work through the fear and avoid the panic? Or would I need to train my mind in another way?
Or would my body just react despite what my mind is doing? Does anyone know or have an idea?

Depends how attached you are in training. Umm, I'll try and explain this. You see an attack coming and often people who haven't been training long focus purely on the attack. If you like their conciousness becomes attached to the attack and then to the response to that attack. Hopefully later on in your training you've seen a punch or whatever so many times that it's just another punch and you deal with it without any thought. Then you have to take this detachment and make it a 24/7 thing.

Another way to look at it is like meditation. When you start meditating you have thoughts, as a beginner you become attached to the thoughts but as you meditate more you learn to allow them to just pass. Treat the entire technique like this, just let it pass. Think about something other than the technique every now and then while you're training. That way you're mind get's used to thinking about one thing while doing another, so if you're walking down the street thinking about one thing and you see a punch you'll be able to carry on thinking about whatever it was and deal with the punch.

Saturn
10-30-2005, 07:49 AM
I think its actually interesting to see other ideas about this topic. I chose to boost it up to keep it mainstream to coax others into it, i am not completly set in my ways i like to stay relativley grounded, but hearing a better idea than I have could be good. I am not just looking for critisism but also more efficient means of thought and perception. My threads pick up where someone else left off, on an idea I found interesting. Like it or not discussion of auto-reaction has complete bearing on mind, and attitude is important.

Hijjakkerr