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Asiatic Budoka
12-31-2009, 10:12 AM
Greetings to all,

As I understand the Aikido terminology, the "kyo" in Ikkyo, nikyo etc. refers to a "concept" or "principle".

Again, AS I UNDERSTAND IT...

Ikkyo = Ude osae
Nikyo = Tekubi mawashi
Sankyo = Kote Hineri
Yonkyo = Tekubi osae

What is the "concept" or "principle" of Gokyo?:confused:

Maarten De Queecker
12-31-2009, 10:38 AM
What do those japanese phrases mean? Isn't gokkyo a knife disarming technique?

CitoMaramba
12-31-2009, 10:41 AM
Gokkyo is "ude nobashi"

Asiatic Budoka
12-31-2009, 10:44 AM
Gokkyo is "ude nobashi"

Ude nobashi ?????

Asiatic Budoka
12-31-2009, 10:47 AM
What do those japanese phrases mean? Isn't gokkyo a knife disarming technique?

Ude osae = arm pin
tekubi mawashi = wrist (turn)around (sorry, exact translation is probably off).

kote hineri = wrist twist (i think)

Tekubi osae = wrist pin

But again this is "as I understand it"! I could be wrong. ;)

And yes gokyo is commonly used as a knife disarming technique but the "kyo" there represents a "principle" if I'm not mistaken

Asiatic Budoka
12-31-2009, 11:07 AM
Gokkyo is "ude nobashi"

OK! Nobashi is something like "stretch", if that's the case, I don't see how that applies to the gokkyo technique.:confused:

CitoMaramba
12-31-2009, 11:49 AM
OK! Nobashi is something like "stretch", if that's the case, I don't see how that applies to the gokkyo technique.:confused:

Cf this post: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=102850&postcount=6

Also gokkyo is referred to as "ude nobashi" in this book by the Nidai Doshu:
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs154.snc3/18140_257473098059_719393059_4395970_4436780_n.jpg

As can be seen in the table of contents, Gokkyo is referred to as "Ude nobashi"

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs134.snc3/18140_257473093059_719393059_4395969_4933699_n.jpg

I think the "stretching" reference is due to the reversed grip on uke's wrist, tori can't "cut" down as in "ikkyo". Instead, tori stretches out uke's arm and controls the elbow with the hand at the elbow.
Also in the tanto dori version, most people are familiar with the pin with uke's arm in a "Z" form.. pressure downwards forces uke's fingers to open and the tanto can be taken..
However, I have seen a video where the Sandai Doshu demonstrates another knife disarm from gokkyo where uke's arm is kept straight and stretched out on the mat and instead, pressure is applied to the base of uke's thumb to loosen the grip and take the tanto.

Hope this helps.

Adam Huss
12-31-2009, 12:07 PM
Yoshinkan have a technique that is similar called "hiji osae." There are differences in how its done, though (ie, uke hand in middle of sh'te chest, uke palm up, energy goes to rear vice down.).

mickeygelum
12-31-2009, 12:25 PM
http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Techniqueschart

dalen7
12-31-2009, 12:29 PM
Tekubi osae = wrist pin

Interesting, the focus with yonkyo the way I practice it is an elbow/shoulder pin. :)

Peace

dAlen

CitoMaramba
12-31-2009, 12:37 PM
The gokkyo I am referring to is illustrated below:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_btFKq-3vUKA/STEX-Idiu7I/AAAAAAAABFw/k9Jssmu3nGo/s512/14%20TECNIQUES%20INMOBILITZACIO%20GOKYO.jpg

I believe that Yoshinkan's hiji-osae or hiji kime osae is known as ude-hishigi (at least in the book by Nidai Doshu that I cited above) and is also called "rokkyo" in a lot of dojos.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1OAb5jwI5-Y/SGUPRzN4upI/AAAAAAAAAig/dqNkkKL_QQE/Hiji_kime_osae.jpg

Ron Tisdale
12-31-2009, 12:46 PM
Hiji shime (the last photo above) is also taught as a reclining pin in some yoshinkan dojo (and other places as well).

Best,
Ron

Asiatic Budoka
12-31-2009, 02:23 PM
Cf this post: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=102850&postcount=6

Hope this helps.

Yes It does! Thanks!:D

Asiatic Budoka
12-31-2009, 02:24 PM
http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Techniqueschart

Thank you Michael! I didn't know that existed! Shows how much I pay attention huh?

Asiatic Budoka
12-31-2009, 02:27 PM
Yes, my sensei does Hiji Kime Osae and we call it rokkyo as well. But when I was part of another organization, they called it gokkyo!
Hey, go figure...

CitoMaramba
12-31-2009, 02:46 PM
Hiji shime (the last photo above) is also taught as a reclining pin in some yoshinkan dojo (and other places as well).

Best,
Ron

Ron, would the reclining pin resemble the waki-gatame in judo?
http://www.ucd.ie/judoclub/grading/Arm%20locks/blue/wakigatame.gif
http://www.sccjudo.de/sport/images/stories/beitragsbilder/techniken/waki-gatame.jpg

Happy New Year to all!

Cito

Ron Tisdale
12-31-2009, 02:56 PM
very much like that....but you can also do it like the standing pin with palm up, but on the ground. I think one of the differences with wakigatame is the positioning of the palm. I think Larry pointed that out the last time...or Peter....or one of the shodo thugs. :D
B,
R

sorokod
12-31-2009, 03:05 PM
Wakigatame is usually performed with the armpit while rokkyo with (a bent) elbow.

Ron Tisdale
12-31-2009, 04:54 PM
I've seen hijishime performed both ways (and done it both ways myself), but the forth dans in my dojo always correct me when I do it with the elbow, reminding me that the armpit is better...

I tend to agree with them.

Best,
Ron

ChrisHein
12-31-2009, 05:48 PM
I teach gokyo with my rokyo often. I would call the elbow controlling part of the technique rokyo, and the wrist folding part gokyo.

That illustration from Aikido and the dynamic sphere is the way I originally learned gokyo, and had a hard time distinguishing it from ikkyo, with a strange grip. I never bought into the knife cutting idea, because if gripped correctly ikkyo can do the same thing.

As I started looking at Daito Ryu waza I opened up my definition of what I would call gokyo. The folding of the wrist seems to be it's key distinguishing characteristic.

Adam Huss
12-31-2009, 05:58 PM
Ron,

That's pretty much how we do hiji shime in our dojo. We definitely make a distinction with waki gatame and gokyo as their are multiple arts in our dojo. The difference with the hand-drawn picture up above is that we would normally keep our back straight, and, in relation to the lady, would have our left hand grabbing our right lapel, plus uke's arm would be up in the armpit. We don't really use kime in a technique name since its already understood what the technique is (ie, we don't call kotegaeshi, "tekubi kime" or "kotegaeshi kime"

CitoMaramba
01-01-2010, 03:24 AM
In the videos below Ando Sensei of Yoshinkan Hombu demonstrates "Kata Mochi Hiji shime".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLkXFNNS2TU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spU3iHLpehQ
Here's a screen cap from the video:
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs154.snc3/18140_258326818059_719393059_4400438_5018232_n.jpg

Rob Watson
01-01-2010, 11:53 AM
In "Budo" by M. Ueshiba and "Budo" by M. Saito gokyo is called ippo and ikkyo but later the name is changed by M. Ueshiba to gokyo.

Seems like putting the principle in the pin is not quite clear so the distinction between ikkyo and gokyo must be fairly subtle.

I learned another pin in Iwama style but cannot find that pin in the "Takemusu Aikido" series by M. Saito. Basically just prior to pinning the arm flat on the mat the inner knee is down out the outer knee is up and uke arm is captured but the raised knee and pressure is put on the elbow. Mush faster than going to the mat and then to the 'Z' pin. Both pins are very effective.

Carsten Möllering
01-01-2010, 01:40 PM
Hi

What do those japanese phrases mean? Isn't gokkyo a knife disarming technique?

Ikkyo through gokyu build up the basic system of katame waza or osae waza in most of aikido styles.
First they are used in tai jutsu. So gokyo first and foremost is not a disarming technique but the fifth of the basic pins.

Second all of those pins are also used in buki dori i.e. tanto dori (not nikyo and yonkyo in our aikido), jo dori (not gokyu in our aikido), tachi dori (not gokyo in our aikido).

OK! Nobashi is something like "stretch", if that's the case, I don't see how that applies to the gokkyo technique.:confused:
Gokyo is a derivat of ikkyo. It's not only that the grip at the wrist is reversed but gokyu much more debends on the stretched elbow.
So gokyo is doing ikkyo with a streched elbow. It can be done omote and ura.

Corresponding:
Hiji kime osae or rokkyo ist doing nikyo ura with a stretched elbow. So the palm is up.

I learned another pin in Iwama style but cannot find that pin in the "Takemusu Aikido" series by M. Saito. Basically just prior to pinning the arm flat on the mat the inner knee is down out the outer knee is up and uke arm is captured but the raised knee and pressure is put on the elbow.We end up this way in ikkyo ura from chudan tsuki.

That's how see the things.

Carsten

Maarten De Queecker
01-01-2010, 04:17 PM
Hi

Ikkyo through gokyu build up the basic system of katame waza or osae waza in most of aikido styles.
First they are used in tai jutsu. So gokyo first and foremost is not a disarming technique but the fifth of the basic pins.

Second all of those pins are also used in buki dori i.e. tanto dori (not nikyo and yonkyo in our aikido), jo dori (not gokyu in our aikido), tachi dori (not gokyo in our aikido).

Gokyo is a derivat of ikkyo. It's not only that the grip at the wrist is reversed but gokyu much more debends on the stretched elbow.
So gokyo is doing ikkyo with a streched elbow. It can be done omote and ura.


Corresponding:
Hiji kime osae or rokkyo ist doing nikyo ura with a stretched elbow. So the palm is up.

We end up this way in ikkyo ura from chudan tsuki.

That's how see the things.

Carsten

I know what ikkyo through gokkyo means, but I didn't understand the descriptions :) My Japanese limits itself to some loose words mainly. Nice to know that rokkyo is a synonym to hiji kime osae (which is by far one of the most dangerous techniques in aikido imo).

Michael Varin
01-02-2010, 04:43 PM
As I understand the Aikido terminology, the "kyo" in Ikkyo, nikyo etc. refers to a "concept" or "principle".

Ikkyo = Ude osae
Nikyo = Tekubi mawashi
Sankyo = Kote Hineri
Yonkyo = Tekubi osae

What is the "concept" or "principle" of Gokyo?
and
Ude osae = arm pin
tekubi mawashi = wrist (turn)around (sorry, exact translation is probably off).
kote hineri = wrist twist (i think)
Tekubi osae = wrist pin
OK. But equating the "kyo's" to alternate Japanese nomenclature then translating to crude English descriptions doesn't really point to the "lesson" or "principle."

To appreciate these principles, it is necessary to divorce them from their full kihon waza forms.

They are all fundamentally different ways to manipulate the arm/wrist/elbow. Ikkyo uses the elbow with its natural movement, nikyo over-rotates the radius with the hand directed back at the body (adduction), sankyo is an internal rotation of the forearm, yonkyo uses the ulnar or radial nerves, gokyo hyper-flexes the wrist -- palm towards elbow, and rokkyo uses the elbow against its natural movement.

It's probably a good idea to consider at least kote gaeshi (external rotation of the forearm) and mae otoshi (similar to rokkyo, but lifting) along with these.

By looking at them this light, the ways in which they complement each other and their usefulness become clearer.

rob_liberti
01-18-2010, 06:49 AM
Michael, your post above was truly a great post in that what you are saying totally jives with teachings about "the wisdom of the shoulder", "the wisdom of the elbow", etc... So please take this as constructive crtisism. I'm simply not convinced that your excellent way of thinking in and of itself rates as a principle. (Although it is among some of the finest examples of thinking about martial arts I have read on aikiweb.)

To me, a principle must satisfy the whole "as above so below and as below so above" concept. Basically, all principles are meta-principles of the principle of correspondance.

I think for what we learn in martial arts, training an aiki body to be able support and power vectors that wouldn't otherwise be possible is where we get to the principles behind the techniques (regardless of how sophistocated we are thinking about the wisdom of the techniques themselves).

It's really a combination of "aiki body", "wisdom of joints", experience of martial vectors, and simply martial experience in general of where am I planning to take this (neutralizing for peace, level-appropriate destruction for peace, avoidance for escape, etc.).

Saotome sensei talks about kihon mind as apposed to kihon waza. Lately, I'm focusing more on kihon body to support that kihon mind... To me, that's the principle of every kyo...

Rob

Ron Tisdale
01-18-2010, 07:28 AM
good posts Michael and Rob,
Thanks,
Ron

sakumeikan
03-03-2010, 05:41 PM
The gokkyo I am referring to is illustrated below:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_btFKq-3vUKA/STEX-Idiu7I/AAAAAAAABFw/k9Jssmu3nGo/s512/14%20TECNIQUES%20INMOBILITZACIO%20GOKYO.jpg

I believe that Yoshinkan's hiji-osae or hiji kime osae is known as ude-hishigi (at least in the book by Nidai Doshu that I cited above) and is also called "rokkyo" in a lot of dojos.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1OAb5jwI5-Y/SGUPRzN4upI/AAAAAAAAAig/dqNkkKL_QQE/Hiji_kime_osae.jpg

You are mistaken here.The name Gokyo is translated as 5th principle.ie Go=5 Kyo=Principle.
Rokkyo is translated as 6th Principle.
Gokyo immobilisation is not the same as illustration.Illustration is Rokkyo.In Gokyo [usually against a tanto waza] your hand hold is on the inside of your partners wrist with your thumb at the leading edge of your partners wrist at heel of hand [little finger side].Gokyo is rarely if ever done as an omote waza.Contact is palm of your hand to inside of ukes wrist.Not like ikkyo.
Rokkyo is done by inside arm controlling opponents arm [a bit like tsuki Kote gaeshi ] the using a tenkan motion , place your elbow over topof ukes elbow joint , control wrist with your other hand and then exert pressure /torque on uke elbow.also using rotational body movement at the same time.

CitoMaramba
03-03-2010, 06:33 PM
Curran Sensei, the picture I originally linked to illustrate gokkyo was removed from the web. I have located another version and am posting it below:
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs085.snc3/15307_371801548059_719393059_4905457_4835076_n.jpg

I trust that this is now correct. Thank you for your comments.

You are mistaken here.The name Gokyo is translated as 5th principle.ie Go=5 Kyo=Principle.
Rokkyo is translated as 6th Principle.
Gokyo immobilisation is not the same as illustration.Illustration is Rokkyo.In Gokyo [usually against a tanto waza] your hand hold is on the inside of your partners wrist with your thumb at the leading edge of your partners wrist at heel of hand [little finger side].Gokyo is rarely if ever done as an omote waza.Contact is palm of your hand to inside of ukes wrist.Not like ikkyo.
Rokkyo is done by inside arm controlling opponents arm [a bit like tsuki Kote gaeshi ] the using a tenkan motion , place your elbow over topof ukes elbow joint , control wrist with your other hand and then exert pressure /torque on uke elbow.also using rotational body movement at the same time.

sakumeikan
03-04-2010, 01:32 AM
Curran Sensei, the picture I originally linked to illustrate gokkyo was removed from the web. I have located another version and am posting it below:
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs085.snc3/15307_371801548059_719393059_4905457_4835076_n.jpg

I trust that this is now correct. Thank you for your comments.

Dear Inocencio,
Your freshly posted illustrations [ from Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere] do indeed show Gokkyo.The second last illustration is the normal pin [in suwariwaza].This pin method enables tori to exert pressure on Ukes wrist joint forcing Uke to release any potential weapon which uke might have.
Rokkyo on the other and forces the uke to release any weapon held by application of pressure to ukes elbow joint in a [TachiWaza] standing position.Nice to meet you by the way.
I hope my little comments help here, All the best , Joe.

CitoMaramba
03-04-2010, 04:42 AM
Curran Sensei,
Thank you again for your comments, they are quite helpful. I did practice before at a British Birankai club (then British Aikikai) at the University of Warwick and at the Ei Mei Kan under Chris Mooney Sensei in Birmingham. This was in 2000-2001. I also attended Ichiro Shibata Sensei's seminar in Birmingham in 2000.
I train mostly in Plymouth and Swansea now but I look forward to meeting you in person sometime soon.
Best wishes,

Inocencio (Cito)

sakumeikan
03-04-2010, 10:14 AM
Curran Sensei,
Thank you again for your comments, they are quite helpful. I did practice before at a British Birankai club (then British Aikikai) at the University of Warwick and at the Ei Mei Kan under Chris Mooney Sensei in Birmingham. This was in 2000-2001. I also attended Ichiro Shibata Sensei's seminar in Birmingham in 2000.
I train mostly in Plymouth and Swansea now but I look forward to meeting you in person sometime soon.
Best wishes,

Inocencio (Cito)
Dear Inocencio,
I note you know Mr Mooney /Mr Ian Grubb , both colleagues of mine.I will be seeing them this weekend .I had the privilege and pleasure of visiting Warwick Uni Aikido section where I had a brilliant time with the young enthusiastic skilful students.I wish you well and I hope perhaps we may meet some time.
All the best , Joe.

WilliB
03-08-2010, 11:09 PM
The gokkyo I am referring to is illustrated below:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_btFKq-3vUKA/STEX-Idiu7I/AAAAAAAABFw/k9Jssmu3nGo/s512/14%20TECNIQUES%20INMOBILITZACIO%20GOKYO.jpg

I believe that Yoshinkan's hiji-osae or hiji kime osae is known as ude-hishigi (at least in the book by Nidai Doshu that I cited above) and is also called "rokkyo" in a lot of dojos.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1OAb5jwI5-Y/SGUPRzN4upI/AAAAAAAAAig/dqNkkKL_QQE/Hiji_kime_osae.jpg

That ain´t a gokyo where I train (Aikikai, Tokyo). That is a 6-kyo, or technically a wakigatame.

CitoMaramba
03-09-2010, 02:48 AM
That ain´t a gokyo where I train (Aikikai, Tokyo). That is a 6-kyo, or technically a wakigatame.
You are correct. Thank you.