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Bruce Baker
04-13-2002, 05:23 PM
Answer for jeapardy: Who is the only student of Morehei Ueshiba, O'Sensei given a 10th dan ranking by O'Sensei?

Now, all you experts, please continue search and tell me why he is an important link of the past to present?

Sorry, I was reading the "Expert" posts of those who have been doing Aikido for over twenty years, had their black belts in their twentys, and forgot to be beginners in their adult middle aged lives?

You know I have been accused of knowing nothing and I know why I find it such a compliment...(This weeks reading of The Secrets of Aikido by John Steven.)

Quote from page 58.

Morehei taught, "Always keep your mind as bright and clear as the vast sky, the great ocean, and the highest peak, empty of thoughts."

That would be me, empty thoughts, looking for more than others present ... no matter how much they whine they have done it all, don't look there!

Weird, the more I am chastised, the more I find O'Sensei's quotes approving of my manners and methods? Irony, or comedy?

( I wasn't looking for a quote, I just opened the book and there it was ... now that is really spooky!)

Kenn
04-13-2002, 05:59 PM
Bruce,

Until now I have refrained from replying to your posts. However I felt compelled to reply to this one. I am no expert, and don't claim to know even a smidgen of what O' Sensei was thinking when he created and developed Aikido.

With that said, I feel I can say with confidence that he did not mean for practitioners of his art to have the arrogant, condisending, thumb your nose at others attitude you have somewhat in the past, and most definitely in this post, shown.

If you want to post your opinions, be it on meditating with trees, or pressure points, you'll find no problem with me. But show a little respect to those who have spent their whole lives learning and practicing this art. Hell, show some repsect to those who have only studied briefly. What the Hell, show respect to all people, huh.

You seem to me a troll who gets off on watching others react to your inane, poorly researched comments.

in other words Bruce, lighten up, enjoy the people here, and maybe, just maybe, if you stop spouting for one minute, you'd learn something, as I have from some of your past posts when I can filter out the idiocy.

Peace, Kenn

guest1234
04-13-2002, 06:14 PM
Yes, what Kenn said, most definately.

deepsoup
04-13-2002, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by ca
Yes, what Kenn said, most definately.

Ditto, what Colleen said. (About what Kenn said.) :confused:

Sean
x

George S. Ledyard
04-14-2002, 02:17 AM
I guess I missed something. Did you actually want to know something about Hikitsuchi Sensei?

I am assuming not since most of your post seemed to be bragging about not knowing very much (odd thing to bragg about I guess), making snide comments about the folks that have trained far longer and know far more, etc.

I just don't get the point.

Kami
04-14-2002, 05:13 AM
And Hikitsuchi Sensei wasn't the only Aikido 10th Dan...According to Stanley Pranin, Abe Seiseki Sensei was verbally awarded a judan by O-Sensei.
IINM :ai:

Bruce Baker
04-14-2002, 07:38 AM
Am I the only one who seeks the good in things?

Where are the deeper meanings of actually living your life in a manner that befits the tenents of Aikido ... the religious beliefs of your own religion?

Or is this a continueing spitting contest of I know more than Bruce?

I hope not?

I bring this gem of a sensei to your attention. Morehei Ueshiba saw something of value in him to award him a 10th dan, doesn't that make you want to know why? It does me.

The other subjects I consider interesting are areas of study? There is value in them and they can be brought into all of our Aikido, can't they? Or ... are those who persist in negative posts reading something into these words from their own minds and responding with the same ignorance they accuse the threadwriter with?

OK, I have admitted to ignorance of your particular lifestyles, and your particular thought method that says insults is the way to educate?

How about educating me with insight, knowledge, and maybe accepting the world is full of people who are NOT critisizing your particular ways but bringing thoughts that could explore other avenues ... whether having been explored or to be explored?

I would be careful about namecalling, I have known some very nice little people who have a lot more manners than .... oops, that would be becoming like you all, wouldn't it? Sorry.

Please, educate me. I am listening.

Just don't forget to reread what you write with new eyes as if someone else were saying it to you .... thanks.


For Mr. Alcantara and Mr. Ledyard:

Interestingly, I discovered a little known video about Hikitsuchi Sensei from 1988. He said some interesting things that were quite different from stances and presentation from the way most teachers teach Aikido in USAF East, but they quite easily fell into my Sparring lessons from Karate? I was wondering if anyone knew more than what this video presented, if his students were visiting other dojo's, or giving seminars on what they had learned both style of physical perception of Aikido and insights they might have from their training?

I haven't had the luxury of travel, working paycheck to paycheck most of my life, so if you can add to this ... such as knowledge outside of what I have gathered from USAF sensei's and poking around the book/video world, I would appreciate it.

Kenn
04-14-2002, 12:12 PM
Sigh, apparently you didn't get what I was trying to get across to you in my post. I'll try again Bruce...YES I would be interested in most of the things you have posted, pressure points, a 10th dan sensei, etc....it's the way you present the subjects that ....well......annoys me for lack of a better word.

I have a solution. Let's chat, one on one..or better yet, in a group scenario.

I am on Yahoo Messenger alot in the evenings. My ID is KenBoyRed. My MSN id is pnkflyd_1@hotmail.com. Feel free to contact me any time you see me online Bruce...or anyone for that matter.

YOu know, I'm even gonna go one better, look under the cultures and communities section of chat, and look in the members created rooms...I will try to begin starting up an Aikiweb chat room in Yahoo...with voice chat..and webcam ability too. Would love to chat with all of you on a more personal level as opposed to a forum. I will wait for your permission to use the Aikiweb name before I begin, Jun. feel free to e mail me with a response...kkoek@tampabay.rr.com.

Thanks all...I hope and look forward to chatting with all of you.

Peace, Kenn

Erik
04-14-2002, 01:38 PM
Or is this a continueing spitting contest of I know more than Bruce?

Bruce, inquiry is an interesting thing and it takes many forms. My understanding is that science can be particularly brutal in regards to this aspect. If you make a scientific claim it is going to be tested, and if the claim doesn't stand up, then the process can be extremely painful and not at all unlike what is going on here. It's usually the non-scientific processes that don't operate under this criteria. It's not a clean and simple process and you can and should expect claims to be challenged. You should appreciate it too because that can be a beautiful place in which to learn. Some of us, are particularly challenging, but perhaps there are reasons for that as well.

Personally, I've wallowed in a lot of crap. Some of it in this art and some of it in other places. I've explored everything from rebirthing to channeling to acupuncture to aura's to reincarnation to OBE's to mega vitamin doses to TM to energy healing to a ton of different investing strategies (I'm a finance grad) to whatever. I've even owned Dillman's books. I've literally owned enough books to stock a self-help section and many/most of the books written on Aikido. Even thought I might have seen aura's at one point. I had an instructor who sold a MLM product (I joined up) where not only was there no evidence of the claims of it's distributor's, the product wasn't even what it claimed to be. Add to that a whole bunch of tax evasion and it was particularly ugly. I've seen people throw students from 10 feet away with ki (myself included until one day someone pointed out how badly I was tanking), instructors claiming beams of light came from their attacker's head (this was a person of prominence), endured a ton of ki explanations (when there were down to earth answers) within Aikido and a bunch more I can't think of right now. Only a very small part of it had any real value and I can't recollect any of it being the value claimed by those selling the product.

If I'm skeptical, it's because I've earned the right to be.

I'll add one more thing and it's preachy. I've pissed off a lot of people over the years. If you are serious about reconciling it doesn't come with insults, aspersions, preconditions or admonitions. It comes with the intent of reconciling, and nothing more, which is why a particular part of the world is having so many problems. People are incredibly forgiving when given a chance to forgive but they've got to be given that chance.

deepsoup
04-14-2002, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
I would be careful about namecalling, I have known some very nice little people who have a lot more manners than .... oops, that would be becoming like you all, wouldn't it? Sorry.


Kettle, this is Pot. Pot, meet Kettle.

I'll be plainer. The main rule of this forum is "Treat your fellow members with respect."

Bruce, in the main you have been treated with respect on these forums (on some occasions rather more than you have deserved, imho).

It is true that one or two people have responded with irritation to your posts. That is to be regretted, but frankly I am surprised more people haven't lost patience with you.

I find the kind of passive-aggressive nonsense exemplified by your most recent post in this thread to be annoying in the extreme, and I would really appreciate it if you could start to demonstrate a little of the respect you continually demand of the rest of us.

Regards
Sean
x

George S. Ledyard
04-14-2002, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker

For Mr. Alcantara and Mr. Ledyard:

Interestingly, I discovered a little known video about Hikitsuchi Sensei from 1988. He said some interesting things that were quite different from stances and presentation from the way most teachers teach Aikido in USAF East, but they quite easily fell into my Sparring lessons from Karate? I was wondering if anyone knew more than what this video presented, if his students were visiting other dojo's, or giving seminars on what they had learned both style of physical perception of Aikido and insights they might have from their training?

I haven't had the luxury of travel, working paycheck to paycheck most of my life, so if you can add to this ... such as knowledge outside of what I have gathered from USAF sensei's and poking around the book/video world, I would appreciate it.

Ok. I will see if I can help on the topic of Hikitsuchi Sensei…

First, start with the Aikido Encyclopedia entry:
HIKITSUCHI, MICHIO
(b. 1923). 10th dan [verbally awarded]. B. Wakayama Prefecture. Head of Kumano Juku Dojo in Shingu, Wakayama Prefecture. Met Morihei UESHIBA as a child and studied various traditional martial arts during his youth. Said to have taught martial arts to military in Japan and Korea during World War II. Began study of aikido in early Michio Hikitsuchi with Morihei Ueshiba at Shingu Station (early 1960s) 1950s. Unofficially awarded 10th dan by Ueshiba. Traveled abroad on numerous occasions beginning 1974, mainly to the U. S. and France. Foreign students regularly spend time in Shingu at his dojo for instruction. Released instructional aikido video in 1987. See AN#2, 3. Aikikai Kumano-Juku, 1-5-1 Motokajiki-cho, Shingu-shi, Wakayama-ken 647 Japan (0735)22-2050.

I have had a fair amount of indirect exposure to the Shingu style (if you can call it a style) so I will tell what I know. Shingu is quite a bit off the beaten path in terms of Japanese Aikido. So despite his rank and close relationship with the Founder Hikitschi is fairly marginalized when it comes to world influence. He did train three exceptional students, Anno, Yanase, and Tojima Senseis. In what I have heard called the “Golden Age of Shingu” all were actively teaching which is not true today as I understand it. Anno Sensei is the only one, to my knowledge, who has been traveling and, unfortunately, his health hasn’t been good and his last trip to the US was cancelled.

Hikitsuchi Sensei is a Shinto priest as well as martial artist and was one of the small number of O-Sensei’s students who were equipped to understand and interested in the spiritual aspect of what O-Sensei was teaching. He was very close personally to the Founder who I think found him to be a kindred spirit. Hikitsuchi Sensei was awarded a separate certificate in the BO by O-sensei indicating that he had understood what the Founder was teaching in that area. I don’t know if anyone else had such a distinction. His 10th Dan rank was awarded spontaneously by O-Sensei who declared that Hikitsuchi had understood his Aikido. The powers that be in the organization always questioned the legitimacy of this rank and it was never made official by the home office. But Hikitsuchi Sensei’s admirers and students consider the rank to be an appropriate recognition of his exceptional talents as an Aikido teacher.

The video you mention was good but brief. It was a sort of documentary of Shingu and Hikitsuchi Sensei. There aren’t that many copies floating around. But I did notice, just the other day, that there is a new three video set which the Shingu folks have produced. It was advertised in the current issue of Aikido Today Magazine (http://www.aiki.com/).

Although the Shingu folks are somewhat marginalized in Japan, Hikitsuchi Sensei has been very influential in the US. Four wonderful American teachers of Aikido came out of the “Golden Age” period:

Mary Heiny Sensei
( http://www.writelivelihood.com/aikido/ )
Mary Has a video available from ATM (http://www.aiki.com/ )

Linda Holiday Sensei
(http://www.northbayaikido.org )

Jack Wada Sensei ( http://www.aikidosj.com/ )

Tom Read Sensei
(http://www.aikibojitsu.com/ )

Although he wasn’t as early as the above teachers, Clint George Sesnei is really the senior American student of Hikitsuchi Sensei if judged from a “duration of exposure” standpoint. George Sensei trained at Shingu for fifteen years. He now has a dojo, Last Chance Aikido, in Helena, MT. (I could not locate a website). George Sensei will be demonstrating at the Aikido Journal Expo in Las Vegas so people can see him there (Tom Read Sensei will also be there)
See: http://www.aikidojournal.com/EXPO/demo.asp

Clint George Sensei will also be at my dojo, Aikido Eastside in June and anyone interested is invited: http://www.aikieast.com/cgeorge.htm

The Shingu style is one that maintains a balance between the spiritual and the martial. The folks who trained there were all deeply affected by the spiritual teachings of the Founder as presented by Hikitsuchi Sensei and the other Shihan at Shingu although each has developed his own distinct style in the years that followed their time in Japan.

erikmenzel
04-14-2002, 05:31 PM
As an addition to George's long list of people:

Kiichi Hine sensei is a student of both O'Sensei and Hikitsuchi Sensei and still travels around to give seminars (in Finland and the Netherlands). IIRC Kiichi Hine started training with Hikitsuchi sensei at the age of 12 and has been a great admirer of O'sensei, who visited Hikitsuchi's dojo regularly. Later on Kiichi Hine sensei moved to tokyo and followed lessons from O'sensei at Hombu.

We were very fortunate to host a seminar with Kiichi Hine at our club begin march.
Besides very good and nice Aikido, with a very strong focus on the concept of Ki No Nagare, there was also a very noticable and very interesting focus on the spiritual and philosophical aspects of Aikido.

Besides a nice teacher on the mat, Kiichi Hine sensei is also a very nice, pleasant and patient man who is very interested in people and likes the opportunity to talk with them.

Greg Jennings
04-14-2002, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Kami
And Hikitsuchi Sensei wasn't the only Aikido 10th Dan...According to Stanley Pranin, Abe Seiseki Sensei was verbally awarded a judan by O-Sensei.
IINM :ai:

The only person with a 10th dan certificate by the Founder in their possession is Koichi Tohei.

Given Tohei Sensei's contribution to the disimination of aikido, I'm surprised no one has mentioned this.

Then there is Minoru Mochizuki being awarded Daito Ryu mokoroku by the Founder before the adoption of the kyu/dan system. But I guess that's apples and oranges.

Best,

Erik
04-14-2002, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
The only person with a 10th dan certificate by the Founder in their possession is Koichi Tohei.

Given Tohei Sensei's contribution to the disimination of aikido, I'm surprised no one has mentioned this.


Wasn't Tohei's post Morihei Ueshiba? I believe, and the entry below implies it, that he was only awarded 8th dan by Morihei Ueshiba.

Courtesy of the Aiki News encyclopedia:

In 1970, the year after the death of Ueshiba, Tohei was officially awarded 10th dan by the AIKIKAI HOMBU DOJO.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia.asp?Letter=T&offset=50

Greg Jennings
04-14-2002, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Erik


Wasn't Tohei's post Morihei Ueshiba? I believe, and the entry below implies it, that he was only awarded 8th dan by Morihei Ueshiba.

Courtesy of the Aiki News encyclopedia:

In 1970, the year after the death of Ueshiba, Tohei was officially awarded 10th dan by the AIKIKAI HOMBU DOJO.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia.asp?Letter=T&offset=50

Mea Culpa. I remember reading the story about him being awarded the 10th dan and thought the story included the Founder and that it was an offical award. I may have misremembered on one or the other counts.

Best,

PeterR
04-14-2002, 10:01 PM
Now I'm curious. I did not realize that the actual certificate was awarded to Tohei K. after Ueshiba M.'s death but I understood there was at least a verbal promotion in front of witnesses.

What is the source of the statement that Hikitsuchi M. was the only 10th dan awarded by Ueshiba M. I understood this was verbal and private.

Totally confused by Bruce's post (there's a point?) but more interested in getting my history straightened out.

Not too worried about differentiating anyone above nanadan. I doubt skill level or understanding was the overriding factor.

Greg Jennings
04-14-2002, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
Now I'm curious. I did not realize that the actual certificate was awarded to Tohei K. after Ueshiba M.'s death but I understood there was at least a verbal promotion in front of witnesses.

What is the source of the statement that Hikitsuchi M. was the only 10th dan awarded by Ueshiba M. I understood this was verbal and private.

Totally confused by Bruce's post (there's a point?) but more interested in getting my history straightened out.

Not too worried about differentiating anyone above nanadan. I doubt skill level or understanding was the overriding factor.
Stanley Pranin is the person to ask.

Best,

PeterR
04-14-2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings

Stanley Pranin is the person to ask.

Sure so from the encyclopedia

In May 1960, Tohei was awarded the rank of 9th dan. ... In 1970, the year after the death of Ueshiba, Tohei was officially awarded 10th dan by the AIKIKAI HOMBU DOJO.

so Erik make that 9th Dan but I'm quibbling. Trying to get to the difference between unofficial (ie verbal) and official (paper) and whether that is important. I was under the impression that it was.

Not a student of either of these masters - just curious.

Chris Li
04-15-2002, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by PeterR
Sure so from the encyclopedia

In May 1960, Tohei was awarded the rank of 9th dan. ... In 1970, the year after the death of Ueshiba, Tohei was officially awarded 10th dan by the AIKIKAI HOMBU DOJO.

so Erik make that 9th Dan but I'm quibbling. Trying to get to the difference between unofficial (ie verbal) and official (paper) and whether that is important. I was under the impression that it was.

Not a student of either of these masters - just curious.

As I understand these things, K. Tohei was promoted to 10th dan by M. Ueshiba just before his death, but the certificate was officially issued after a period of mourning. This makes him the only 10th dan promoted by M. Ueshiba through official channels.

Abe and Hikitsuchi were apparently promoted personally by M. Ueshiba, so the Aikikai has always sort of ignored the issue of whether or not those promotions are official or not. I have heard that Hikitsuchi actually received a signed, sealed, and witnessed 10th dan certificate personally from M. Ueshiba, but that it's hidden away somewhere.

Of course there those menkyo kaiden promotions...

Mochizuki was promoted later on to 10th dan by the IMAF, said promotion being (according to Mochizuki) informally approved by the Ueshiba family. I believe that Gozo Shioda also took a 10th dan from the IMAF.

Best,

Chris

Bruce Baker
04-15-2002, 05:06 AM
Thanks for the information.

For the millionith time ... I am sorry if you read emotion or have a personal issue with my words, I try to speak plainly and truthfully.

For those who wish to contact me or have personal issues to take up with me, please email:

BrucBaker@aol.com

Hey, I am disabled, work one day a week or when I want, gonna crack fifty soon, long as I get the wash in the machine and the dishes washed, me wife don't smack me head ... life is better than it was?

Now if I could only get 'em to switch all Aikido Classes to mornings, the GOOD part of my day, life could be great!

Another question: How many of you offended partys actually work with swearing blue collar salt of the earth dirt under their fingernails people? Just wondering if these rough and tumble ways were the cause of friction?

Or is there really a Caste system here and the new kid ain't off the bottom yet?

Really ... I consider everyone smarter than I am, and sometimes that really annoys people when they aren't ... I will try to do better.
The fact is, most of my annoying qualities are from years of dealing with manufacturers products and problems that are not in technical manuals or not covered by warranty. The next year after though, there is a service bulletin or new types of parts to be installed with service representatives claiming no problem ever existed? A trained cynicysm from years of repeated Pavlov behavior training.

Thanks for your responses, and I did get in touch with Clint George at one point but he said he mainly did West Coast seminars.

It is a pleasure to have information posted that is informative and educational.

Chuck.Gordon
04-15-2002, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by Kenn
I have a solution. Let's chat, one on one..or better yet, in a group scenario.

Or better yet, ya'll sign on to the aikido list (www.aikido-l.org) and start attending the annual aikido-l seminar. There have been four so far and all were wonderful events. Teachers ranged from koryu bunnies to Ki Society, from Yoshinkan to judo, from stick to tricks.

It's generally a Fri-Sat-Sun event, with date, site and teachers selected by the list members.

It's one hell of an opportunity for aikido (and other budo) folks to get together, train, learn, develop and explore.

The primary thrust of training is aikido (so far, we've representatives from had USAF East and West, Ki Society, Yoshinkan, Jiyushinkai, and much more), but other arts -- and how they relate to aikido -- are also explored, ranging from jujutsu and judo to Shinto Muso Ryu and iaido.

Mini-classes between the primary teachers have included hakama-making, massage for martial artists (we had a whole SLEW of body-workers on hand last time and no one who wanted to get rubbed, poked or twisted went away disappointed), etc.

It's a great time and is one of the things I'll miss most about leaving the US! However, I hope to attend and help with the Euro list seminar in its stead!

Chuck

Kami
04-15-2002, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
The only person with a 10th dan certificate by the Founder in their possession is Koichi Tohei.
Given Tohei Sensei's contribution to the disimination of aikido, I'm surprised no one has mentioned this.
Then there is Minoru Mochizuki being awarded Daito Ryu mokoroku by the Founder before the adoption of the kyu/dan system. But I guess that's apples and oranges.
Best,

KAMI : Just to clarify some points :
a) the question was not who had a certificate but who was ranked by Ueshiba Morihei. There were, at least, two - Hikitsuchi and Abe Sensei, one with a certificate from the Founder and the other verbally awarded; and
b) the question was about 10th Dan and not Mokuruku (quite a different fish...)
Anyway, thanks for your commentaries :ai:

Greg Jennings
04-15-2002, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Kami


KAMI : Just to clarify some points :
a) the question was not who had a certificate but who was ranked by Ueshiba Morihei. There were, at least, two - Hikitsuchi and Abe Sensei, one with a certificate from the Founder and the other verbally awarded; and
b) the question was about 10th Dan and not Mokuruku (quite a different fish...)
Anyway, thanks for your commentaries :ai:

Just to clarify, by my reading, there was no such question. There was a statement:


Answer for jeapardy: Who is the only student of Morehei Ueshiba, O'Sensei given a 10th dan ranking by O'Sensei?


Meaning Hikitsuchi Sensei which is somewhat incorrect.

More on this later...got to go train.

Best,

aikilouis
04-15-2002, 06:07 PM
Hikitsushi Sensei's influence is also visible in Europe, since he travelled several times to give seminars in France. What's more, one of his students is Gerard Blaize, 7th dan Aikikai, the first non japanese to receive that grade. I happen to belong to his organization (AFATJ=Association Francaise d'Aikido Traditionnel du Japon) and twice a year I attend G Blaize's seminars. Incidentally, my sensei's sensei is currently in Shingu, and in a few weeks we should receive news of Hikitsushi Sensei's health, which has been reportedly declining for some time.

Louis R Joseph

Kami
04-16-2002, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
Just to clarify, by my reading, there was no such question. There was a statement:
"Who is the only student of Morehei Ueshiba, O'Sensei given a 10th dan ranking by O'Sensei?"
Meaning Hikitsuchi Sensei which is somewhat incorrect.
Best,

YAMANTAKA : Sorry, Greg. With all due respect, that's a question, not a statement. Even if Bruce intended the answer to be Hikitsuchi Sensei, he asked a question and as such it was answered by everybody. Just that.
Best :ai:

Greg Jennings
04-16-2002, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Kami


YAMANTAKA : Sorry, Greg. With all due respect, that's a question, not a statement. Even if Bruce intended the answer to be Hikitsuchi Sensei, he asked a question and as such it was answered by everybody. Just that.
Best :ai:

We'll have to agree to disagree.

And back to my original comments.

The story as I read it, I believe reading in a printed edition of Aikido Journal is that the Founder was present and part of the conversation wherein Koichi Tohei was verbally, but with witnesses given the 10th dan.

IIRC, it was something about some other organization having a 10th dan and awarding Tohei Sensei one was seen as enhancing the prestige of the Aikikai. At the time Tohei Sensei, while incredibly talented and the chief instructor of the Aikikai, hadn't been training, like, several decades.

The 10th dan award was, after the Founder's death, formalized by the Aikikai.

---

Before the adoption of the kyu/dan system by the Aikikai, Minoru Mochizuki Sensei was awarded a mokoroku of some kind. Someone chimed in that this was a Menkyo Kaidan.

This is often used to mean "full transmission". I.e., something roughly like the connotation of a 10th dan.

Add to that, that Mochizuki Sensei, was, supposedly, offered the Doshu job before Kisshomaru Doshu decided to take it up. IIRC, the plan was for Mochizuki Sensei to marry the Founder's daughter and adopt the Ueshiba name.

It's not a dan ranking of any kind, but I think it's an interesting point, none the less.

---

So, any way you slice it, if the stories are as I remember them, there were three 10th dans given verbally by the Founder.

Evidently only Tohei Sensei's was in front of witnesses and also the only one formalized by the Aikikai.

---

Keep in mind that I'm dredging all of the above up from memory and my only reason for it is to stimulate interested people to look into the history.

---

I don't mean to knock Hikitsuchi or Abe Senseis. I have the _utmost_ respect for them.

I do, however, strongly believe in a free flow of information as long as no one is harmed by it. For example, if any of the principals in the above stories asked me to zip it, I certainly would.

Best Regards,

Erik
04-16-2002, 04:47 PM
I would have to agree with what Greg said. It was clearly a statement of fact. Sort of like asking who was the X president of the United States and then delivering the answer and he was incorrect anyway you slice because at the very least there was Abe sensei as well and frankly I doubt he was terribly aware of Tohei's status.

Greg, as far as Tohei goes, I was just operating off the encyclopedia. I was originally going to raise the same point but for some reason I double checked it. I think I kept kicking around the 8th dan promotion. Whatever we come up with works for me and I think Tohei, for purposes of this discussion, should be included anyway.

Mike Haber
04-23-2002, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by aikilouis
Hikitsushi Sensei's influence is also visible in Europe, since he travelled several times to give seminars in France. What's more, one of his students is Gerard Blaize, 7th dan Aikikai, the first non japanese to receive that grade. I happen to belong to his organization (AFATJ=Association Francaise d'Aikido Traditionnel du Japon) and twice a year I attend G Blaize's seminars. Incidentally, my sensei's sensei is currently in Shingu, and in a few weeks we should receive news of Hikitsushi Sensei's health, which has been reportedly declining for some time.

Louis R Joseph

What is Blaize Sensei's aikido like? Does he emphasize atemi and kihon?

Bruce Baker
04-26-2002, 06:17 PM
So far,

There has been nothing new that I have not already found on the internet or video about Hikitsuchi sensei?

Thanks for trying though.

Could be the only thing to do is train with whoever is in USA from Hikitsuchi's students?

I was hoping to get a few international views, especially from some of you in Japan?

At least we did find out something about verbal 10th dan and certificates awarded after O'Sensei's passing into heaven ...

One of our teachers in the east, in particular, Zen Okimura sensei of Delaware brought this story to our attention at O'Sensei's memorial ceremony, which he holds each year.

He asks one of the children to figure out how long it has been since O'Sensei passed away, then he tells a simple story.

In buddhist thinking, it has been that many years since O'Sensei is in heaven. We are not celebrating his death, but his rebirth in heaven. So instead of his death, we celebrate O'Sensei's birthday in heaven that day.

O'Sensei saw something in Hikitsuchi sensei, if you have a story of a seminar, or have seen the video from 1988, maybe that will be enough to explore some of the training and demonstrations seen there verses the way we in the USA train or are instructed in to learn Aikido?

Sorry if I annoy anyone, but some of the most annoying people come up with some pretty interesting questions?

You can't always find enlightenment by walking in the footsteps of the person in front of you, sometimes you have to tread upon new ground?

If we can tread on new ground, now and then, we might have some real gems of information to exchange?

Thank you all for patience.

For those who want a physical shot at me real body ... you might get it if you smile, partner.

Don't blame me if you hurt yourself hitting me though, I take no responsibility for injurys!

Kami
04-27-2002, 04:21 AM
One last thing I forgot...It seems Hikitsuchi Sensei DO HAVE a certificate from Ueshiba Morihei O. Stanley Pranin, of Aikido Journal, has stated, some time ago, that he personally saw and examined Hikitsuchi's 10th Dan certificate, directly issued by O-Sensei. Anyone interested may ask him. The problem with the Aikikai seems to be that Hikitsuchi Sensei didn't follow the "official proceedings" for having this accepted by the Powers that Be...Also, I believe that, in the last years, he has become increasingly distant from the Aikikai. Politics, I believe...:eek:
Best

nikonl
04-27-2002, 05:38 AM
I've always thought that Tohei Sensei was the only 10th Dan given by O'Sensei. Now i'm very confused. Can someone pls explain to me?? :)

guest1234
04-27-2002, 09:12 AM
Hi Nikon,

Probably confusing because so many posts are long and some are extraneous info, but mytake on what so many have posted (I'd at least reread Greg Jennings' and Kami's posts), then Tohei was ginve a 10th dan, verbally prior to and official later after O Sensei's death. A few others may have received them, are reported to have, etc, either before or after, but some dispute the fact (although others say they have seen the certificate, and that would seem to be good enough proof). I guess it boils down to which version of history anyone believes.

Kami
04-27-2002, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by ca
...A few others may have received them, are reported to have, etc, either before or after, but some dispute the fact (although others say they have seen the certificate, and that would seem to be good enough proof). I guess it boils down to which version of history anyone believes.

KAMI : You're right, Colleen! That's why I said "It seems..." and "I believe..." about Hikitsuchi's certificate.
Until it is presented to the public and confirmed, it will always be the word of some against the denial of others.
That's life...:ai:

guest1234
04-27-2002, 02:14 PM
Thanks, Nikon:blush: :) , but I know I'm actually one of the more opinionated irritating onesevileyes ...

Besides, you go and post something like that and I'm never going to win the 'most ignored' competition:D