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RED
12-25-2009, 06:01 PM
In response to complaints on my phonetic spelling of "shinto", I've been spelling it as "Shin Tao" which has been annoying some people.

A source:
Shinto is an ancient Japanese religion. Starting about 500 BCE (or earlier) it was originally "an amorphous mix of nature worship, fertility cults, divination techniques, hero worship, and shamanism." Its name was derived from the Chinese words "shin tao" ("The Way of the Gods")
http://www.religioustolerance.org/shinto.htm

People got upset privately and publically with my spelling of "Shinto".. in the end we are taking non-English characters and trying to translate in a phonetic language. So in the end I don't even think the spelling matters, but it was a big point to some to discredit my intelligence in general LOL :)

Flintstone
12-25-2009, 06:18 PM
So you believe "shinto" is an English term? Or that English is a "phonetic language"? LOL :)

Shinto is Shinto and not Shintao, as Schill is Schill and not Zander (http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/zander). Yes, people get offended by things like that.

RED
12-25-2009, 06:23 PM
So you believe "shinto" is an English term? Or that English is a "phonetic language"? LOL :)

Oh no, I don't think Shinto is English. It comes from the characters "shin" and "tao" I believe English is phonetic and does its best to phonetically spell out those non-English characters.

Please reference my source for why I chose to spell it the way I did. Also the book "A Life In Aikido" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba used this spelling,so forgive my ignorance if people are angered by simple phonetic spellings. :)


In the end I think it is the difference between the word "gray" and "grey"

Flintstone
12-25-2009, 06:26 PM
Oh no, I don't think Shinto is English. It comes from the characters "shin" and "tao" I believe English is phonetic and does its best to phonetically spell out those non-English characters.
I would say Shinto is formed by 神 (shin) and 道 (do). Oh, yes, Japanese kanji has its origin in Chinese hanzi and all of that, as Spanish has its origins in Latin and Greek and... But we do speak Spanish and not Greek. So do the Japanese speak, well... Japanese and not Chinese.

Don't even get started on English being a phonetic language...

RED
12-25-2009, 06:27 PM
I would say Shinto is formed by 神 (shin) and 道 (do). Oh, yes, Japanese kanji has its origin in Chinese hanzi and all of that, as Spanish has its origins in Latin and Greek and... But we do speak Spanish and not Greek. So do the Japanese speak, well... Japanese and not Chinese.

Don't even get started on English being a phonetic language...

I think this needs its own thread.

Chinese and Japanese use similar character systems, it is really the inflection that changes. Technically a Cantonese speaker would say "Shin-Dao". It is inflection in the end.
Regardless, it is splitting hairs. :D

I agree, English is not entirely phonetic. However that's not what is being argued. Why English speakers spell it "S-h-i-n-t-o" is what is being argued, and those reasons are phonetic in origin.

Again, it is as good as the difference between "color" and "colour".

akiy
12-25-2009, 06:29 PM
Hi Maggie,

Just a quick intercession here to say that I would never transliterate into English the name of the Japanese religion referenced in this thread as "Shin Tao" in any of the transliteration systems that I've encountered.

Also, for most linguists, English is far from being a phonetic language.

Hope that helps,

-- Jun

RED
12-25-2009, 06:39 PM
Hi Maggie,

Just a quick intercession here to say that I would never transliterate into English the name of the Japanese religion referenced in this thread as "Shin Tao" in any of the transliteration systems that I've encountered.

Also, for most linguists, English is far from being a phonetic language.

Hope that helps,

-- Jun

I agree that English is not phonetic entirely. Never claimed it was. I argue the reason Shinto is spelled the way it is is for the sake of phonetics. So it can be written in English, so English speakers may pronounce it as correctly humanly possible.

I now understand that it is not normally translated as "shin-tao". From my readings, and the references I provided, you can see why I never thought that spelling it "shin-tao" would cause such a stink.LOL:)
I quoted my reference for why I said it that way.

And, I think your statement is the proper conclusion to the issue. thanks.

Flintstone
12-25-2009, 06:40 PM
I agree, English is not entirely phonetic. However that's not what is being argued. Why English speakers spell it "S-h-i-n-t-o" is what is being argued, and those reasons are phonetic in origin.
Oh, there is a thingy called the "Hepburn Romanization System". That's why.

Ref.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepburn_romanization

RED
12-25-2009, 06:45 PM
Oh, there is a thingy called the "Hepburn Romanization System". That's why.

Ref.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepburn_romanization

Thank you for the reference.
I enjoy learning about language.

Ellis Amdur
12-25-2009, 07:18 PM
Actually, this is very simple.
There's, 127,076,183 Japanese, as of 3/09. Let's eliminate the preverbal, the senile, the developmentally disabled, the autistic, and the deaf mute. I've no idea what we've got left, but let's say it's a nice round number - 100,000,000.

If you go up to any one of that 100,000,000 people and said, "Excuse me, where is the nearest Shinto shrine?" They'd point to it. If you asked, "Do you practice Shinto?" Most would laugh and say, "Well, I go to the shrine to ask for" a better business year, or pass a test or get married. Whatever.

If you went up to anyone of those people and said, "Where's the nearest Shintao shrine, they'd look at you and go, "Ehh? Nani?" They would not understand. NOT one.
You think I'm over-exagerrating? I'm not. I lived there too long.
If you make the slightest mistake in pronounciation, people do not understand. I remember almost crying in frustration with the following. I was on a bus and wanted to get off at Oukeikubo, a stop on the line. I asked the bus driver to tell me when we arrived at Okeikubo. (See, I didn't add the almost silent u). he didn't understand. What else could it be? The stop was on the bus line. I thought maybe he was messing with me. But no one else on the bus understood either.
I just gave up - sat in my seat and eventually the automatic announcement went off, Oukeikubo. I stormed up and said, in Japanese - colloquial fluent Japanese, BTW - "There. That's what I said!" And he looked at me, honestly bewildered and said, "Oh, Oukeikubo. Why didn't you say so."
In a language comprised of a syllabary of only 55 sounds, every detail matters.
So it's not arbitrary at all.
Ellis Amdur

RED
12-25-2009, 07:57 PM
Actually, this is very simple.
There's, 127,076,183 Japanese, as of 3/09. Let's eliminate the preverbal, the senile, the developmentally disabled, the autistic, and the deaf mute. I've no idea what we've got left, but let's say it's a nice round number - 100,000,000.

If you go up to any one of that 100,000,000 people and said, "Excuse me, where is the nearest Shinto shrine?" They'd point to it. If you asked, "Do you practice Shinto?" Most would laugh and say, "Well, I go to the shrine to ask for" a better business year, or pass a test or get married. Whatever.

If you went up to anyone of those people and said, "Where's the nearest Shintao shrine, they'd look at you and go, "Ehh? Nani?" They would not understand. NOT one.
You think I'm over-exagerrating? I'm not. I lived there too long.
If you make the slightest mistake in pronounciation, people do not understand. I remember almost crying in frustration with the following. I was on a bus and wanted to get off at Oukeikubo, a stop on the line. I asked the bus driver to tell me when we arrived at Okeikubo. (See, I didn't add the almost silent u). he didn't understand. What else could it be? The stop was on the bus line. I thought maybe he was messing with me. But no one else on the bus understood either.
I just gave up - sat in my seat and eventually the automatic announcement went off, Oukeikubo. I stormed up and said, in Japanese - colloquial fluent Japanese, BTW - "There. That's what I said!" And he looked at me, honestly bewildered and said, "Oh, Oukeikubo. Why didn't you say so."
In a language comprised of a syllabary of only 55 sounds, every detail matters.
So it's not arbitrary at all.
Ellis Amdur

Ah, I get what you are saying. My mistake if it has a totally different pronunciation. I was under the impression that pronunciation was the same. (mostly because of how I've heard it pronounced by my seniors. With a soft "ow" at the end, not a hard "O". )
Also, again I provided my two references for why I thought this was an alright spelling for the word.

Josh Lerner
12-25-2009, 10:09 PM
Hi Maggie,

[obsessive language geek mode]

For entirely informational purposes:

If you want to go with the Mandarin Chinese pronounciation, which is what I'm assuming you were going for with "shin tao", it would be written either "shen tao" or "shen dao", depending on what transliteration system you want to use. And both of which reference the Mandarin, not Cantonese, pronounciation. "Shen" is pronounced like "shun", as in to shun someone, while "dao"/"tao" is pronounced like "dow", as in Dow Jones.

In Cantonese, it would be pronounced and written something like "san dou". Either way, as Ellis noted, a Japanese speaker would never understand you.

[/obsessive language geek mode]

Josh

Walker
12-26-2009, 01:57 AM
If you went up to anyone of those people and said, "Where's the nearest Shintao shrine, they'd look at you and go, "Ehh? Nani?" They would not understand. NOT one.
You think I'm over-exagerrating? I'm not. I lived there too long.
If you make the slightest mistake in pronounciation, people do not understand. I remember almost crying in frustration with the following. I was on a bus and wanted to get off at Oukeikubo, a stop on the line. I asked the bus driver to tell me when we arrived at Okeikubo. (See, I didn't add the almost silent u). he didn't understand. What else could it be? The stop was on the bus line. I thought maybe he was messing with me. But no one else on the bus understood either.
I just gave up - sat in my seat and eventually the automatic announcement went off, Oukeikubo. I stormed up and said, in Japanese - colloquial fluent Japanese, BTW - "There. That's what I said!" And he looked at me, honestly bewildered and said, "Oh, Oukeikubo. Why didn't you say so."
In a language comprised of a syllabary of only 55 sounds, every detail matters.
So it's not arbitrary at all.
Ellis Amdur
Totally true and real.
I have this theory that American English speakers have a far higher tolerance for mispronunciation than Japanese speakers and have wondered why. It really doesn't make sense to me as so much in Japanese is context driven with lots of aisatsu and inference. Why is it that slight mispronunciation seems so often to be catastrophic?
Or, is it just me being wrong again...

crbateman
12-26-2009, 05:45 AM
Totally true and real.
I have this theory that American English speakers have a far higher tolerance for mispronunciation than Japanese speakers and have wondered why. It really doesn't make sense to me as so much in Japanese is context driven with lots of aisatsu and inference. Why is it that slight mispronunciation seems so often to be catastrophic?
Or, is it just me being wrong again...Perhaps it's because typical Japanese may be more used to hearing their language spoken by native Japanese, whereas Americans routinely hear their language spoken (or misspoken) by people of so many different non-English origins? Just a thought...

Peter Goldsbury
12-26-2009, 08:44 AM
Hello Doug,

I am not sure I agree. My very first aikido teacher used to complain bitterly about UK railway employees who refused to understand his English. The nearest train station to Sussex University is Falmer, which is VERY difficult for a Japanese to pronounce. In Japanese it would be ファルマ, which is what he said when he asked for a ticket. It always came out as a mispronounced 'Farmer' and it was made worse because he would make a very special effort to pronounce it clearly and distinctly, with all the native interference evident.

I have taught the English language to Japanese over the years and I believe that hearing is just as culture-specific a skill as speaking and reading. The cultural filters for processing supposed information are just as obtrusive. So very often people do not actually hear what I say in Japanese because they do not expect me to say what I actually say.

And the native speakers, of course, are always right. :D

Best wishes for 2010.

PAG

Totally true and real.
I have this theory that American English speakers have a far higher tolerance for mispronunciation than Japanese speakers and have wondered why. It really doesn't make sense to me as so much in Japanese is context driven with lots of aisatsu and inference. Why is it that slight mispronunciation seems so often to be catastrophic?
Or, is it just me being wrong again...

kokyu
12-26-2009, 10:27 AM
Both Prof Goldsbury and Clark have valid points...

I think a passenger-facing employee at an international airport would have a greater tolerance for varied English pronunciation as compared to someone deep in the country.. so it depends on one's exposure to people speaking English differently... (either via one's social circle/workplace/TV, etc)

But, yes, Japan is a relatively homogeneous country, and the Japanese appear fond of rules/standards, so people speak hyojungo (standard Japanese) the same in places I've been to.. hence, a slight mispronunciation can be misunderstood... missing or adding an extra sound could mean a different Kanji altogether.. moreover, you don't see too many foreigners speaking Japanese on TV, so there is less exposure (and less tolerance) to different ways of speaking the language ... and... Japanese *has* intonations... compared to English, Japanese appears to have many more homophones, e.g. *hashi* could mean bridge, chopsticks, end, etc.. so you have to say it j-u-s-t right, to avoid blank looks :p

Keith Larman
12-26-2009, 11:24 AM
I have taught the English language to Japanese over the years and I believe that hearing is just as culture-specific a skill as speaking and reading.

As a gigantic fwiw, I think there is little doubt of this. As a person who has had hearing problems my whole life it is amazing the things I can "mis-hear" in conversation. People living with those with hearing loss have to learn a few things. One is to face the person who is hard of hearing when you speak -- we gather a tremendous amount of information visually when people speak. Another is that there are extremely subtle cues in speech that are critical to "understanding". It isn't enough that the sound is close unless the person is actively trying to figure out what something sounds like. In normal conversation if any of the most subtle of things are off you literally don't "hear" it. So considering the variety of quirks, mannerisms, etc. that are culture/region/whatever specific it should not be surprising that there can be remarkably subtle misunderstanding that render someone unable to "hear" what someone else is saying even if on reflection you realize they are very close in sound.

Those who are hard of hearing have constant problems with misunderstandings. My wife and daughter are both very good at being my "translator" when we're at a restaurant or something like that. The wait staff will ask me something and my wife and/or daughter almost always automatically rephrase it for me if I have any hesitation at all. They'll also correct me if I obviously misunderstood. The critical point here is that I "heard" what I thought I heard. It just isn't always what they said. The combination of facial expression, sounds, body language, everything comes together in the brain to form the "language" we hear. So I literally hear better when I can see someone's face. When I take out my hearing aids or they're in the shop, I have to "relearn" to read faces better. Lacking the improved hearing the high end digital hearing aids give I need to relearn reading faces, context, etc. So I hear a lot better if I know someone and have experience listening to them, especially without my hearing aids in. A new person, a noisy environment, and if I can't see their face clearly... Hearing aids or not I have a heck of time understanding a word they're saying. Or I might think I understood but I'll have often heard it completely wrong. Sometimes comically so.

Recently at a restaurant a waitress asked me if I needed a new fork. I picked up the fork and said "No, I"m fine". She looked puzzled and walked away. My wife told me she actually asked if I wanted a refill on my coke. Fork. Coke. Hmmm, I would have sworn I heard fork. And as a matter of fact I *did* hear fork. It's just not what she said... My brain filled in the rest. Maybe I happened to be holding the fork and wasn't thinking about the drink. I wasn't facing her so I didn't see her face when she spoke. So my brain filled in all the blanks in real time. And came up with something that made sense given context and whatever I happened to be thinking. It just wasn't what she asked...

The understanding of spoken language is a remarkably subtle thing on many levels. Every language (and dialect and region and...) has their own specific quirks and habits. If you're not familiar with them and immersed in them sufficiently you will have problems.

Ron Tisdale
12-26-2009, 01:54 PM
Ok, sorry Keith, I don't mean to make light of the issue, but given the context of your post, I was anticipating an entirely different reallity to "needing a new fork" than what you delivered!!! :eek: :D
Best,
Ron

Don_Modesto
12-26-2009, 03:02 PM
Very interesting article on "Shinto": http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:rmYMkv_K9x4J:www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/jjrs/pdf/636.pdf+from+jindo+to+shinto&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgY_Z2RsOJj7AB_vRzhbzfqMCudwc-4RMP7f09TUSfwTCaDIQEsRJCStlLQNNRhNotHu-mncRBj7KHz_9l74pKAE_nkgNkdY-sgeoWsJ0MUmhG0_RmMOVayuKpn3D2BAof24O6R&sig=AHIEtbTXQNEclomm8Pw8gsv6CVEepiyMTQ

Walker
12-26-2009, 03:32 PM
Thanks Peter and everyone for your thoughts. I do also recall my first struggles with katakana words and how frustrating it was to try to get "English" back out of them. I found it either clicked immediately or I was lost until I found it in the dictionary.

RED
12-26-2009, 03:33 PM
Hi Maggie,

[obsessive language geek mode]

For entirely informational purposes:

If you want to go with the Mandarin Chinese pronounciation, which is what I'm assuming you were going for with "shin tao", it would be written either "shen tao" or "shen dao", depending on what transliteration system you want to use. And both of which reference the Mandarin, not Cantonese, pronounciation. "Shen" is pronounced like "shun", as in to shun someone, while "dao"/"tao" is pronounced like "dow", as in Dow Jones.

In Cantonese, it would be pronounced and written something like "san dou". Either way, as Ellis noted, a Japanese speaker would never understand you.

[/obsessive language geek mode]

Josh

I believe you. I'm willing to admit I was wrong(I've said this 5million times) but I gave my source for why I chose to spell it the way I did.
:)

I have a really high tolerance for misspelling and grammar issues actually. It may come from working with children. I also used to work in Brazil as missionary with children, and their English was worse than my own. Either way, I've grown to be cool so long as I understand what some one is saying.

Charles Hill
12-26-2009, 05:16 PM
I just gotta share this story.

A young handsome American guy I know was working in an office under a middle aged Japanese woman manager whose affections for the guy were just barely staying this side of sexual harassment. One night, the workers were all going to go out for a drink once the final paperwork was done. The guy had finished his and was lying on the couch. He said to the manager in front of the whole office what he thought was "When you're done, okoshite kudasai (please wake me up)". What he really said was, "When you're done, okashite kudasai. (please rape me)". Until he quit, he was never allowed to forget it!

Keith Larman
12-26-2009, 06:30 PM
Ok, sorry Keith, I don't mean to make light of the issue, but given the context of your post, I was anticipating an entirely different reallity to "needing a new fork" than what you delivered!!! :eek: :D
Best,
Ron

Hey, if it went that way I would have heard it juuuuust fine... ;)

Toby Threadgill
12-26-2009, 08:40 PM
LOL,

You guys are killing me. More confirmation that I was right to just give up on my Japanese classes. My brain was about to explode!

Toby

Walker
12-27-2009, 03:19 AM
LOL,

You guys are killing me. More confirmation that I was right to just give up on my Japanese classes. My brain was about to explode!

Toby

Exploding is just an accelerated painful expansion. :freaky: :hypno: :eek: :dead:

Ron Tisdale
12-27-2009, 08:58 AM
Exploding is just an accelerated painful expansion.

Yeah, but if you have the skilz no one can make you explode....you are invincible! (as one of my best friends said last night while dodging his son's snowballs...)
:eek: :D
B,
R

Ron Tisdale
12-27-2009, 09:15 AM
Hi Maggie, I guess perhaps it wasn't clear to some of us (perhaps a lack of reading skills on our part) that you had acknolowged the mistake. I at least, had the impression that in the face of mounting evidence, you were still defending your original position.

One thing I will often do, is to pose questions, avoiding statements of fact unless I'm sure, as I did here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=248090&postcount=5

Best,
Ron
I believe you. I'm willing to admit I was wrong(I've said this 5million times) but I gave my source for why I chose to spell it the way I did.
:)

I have a really high tolerance for misspelling and grammar issues actually. It may come from working with children. I also used to work in Brazil as missionary with children, and their English was worse than my own. Either way, I've grown to be cool so long as I understand what some one is saying.

RED
12-27-2009, 02:28 PM
Hi Maggie, I guess perhaps it wasn't clear to some of us (perhaps a lack of reading skills on our part) that you had acknolowged the mistake. I at least, had the impression that in the face of mounting evidence, you were still defending your original position.

One thing I will often do, is to pose questions, avoiding statements of fact unless I'm sure, as I did here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=248090&postcount=5

Best,
Ron

I would have to admit, I know nothing. :cool: So,I'm cool with respectful rebuke.

Cliff Judge
12-28-2009, 10:03 AM
What Ellis described happens to me constantly with my Japanese in-laws.

The r/l thing is the best example of the flip-side of this. I have exchanged thousands of emails with my wife over the years and it always strikes me as weird that she will mis-TYPE words the same way she mispronounces them. In particular, she'll replace Ls with Rs. You wouldn't think a pronunciation issue would occur in text but there you have it.

Also, Japanese speakers with English as a second language seem to be more comfortable with the salutation "Dera Mr. ..." I imagine it the word "Dear" just don't look right, or perhaps typing two vowels right alongside each other doesn't feel right.

Someone should also point out that it is apparently very very difficult for English speakers to get the proper non-inflection right in Japanese. I think I am pretty good at supressing my urge to stress the middle syllable of the word "Aikido" but my wife tells me I get it wrong all the time; apparently I let the last syllable drop too much. We've got a dog named Tomoe - I wonder how confused she is over what her name is. :)

C. David Henderson
12-28-2009, 10:19 AM
Hey Maggie,

I'm not sure, but I read Ron as gently suggesting a different way of opening up the conversation (asking questions), rather than making declarative statements when he wasn't really sure about something.

I'm also not sure if you read it that way.

Did you?

In any event I think its a good suggestion generally, particularly when there so often are folks here with detailed knowledge about particular subjects.

FWIW

cdh

Ron Tisdale
12-28-2009, 12:50 PM
Thank you David, you made my point exactly. I was hoping to be gentle and clear...somehow you did both, better.

Best,
Ron

Rennis Buchner
12-29-2009, 05:38 PM
It really doesn't make sense to me as so much in Japanese is context driven with lots of aisatsu and inference. Why is it that slight mispronunciation seems so often to be catastrophic?
Or, is it just me being wrong again...

In my experience much of it is the "deer in headlights" panic situation of many having to deal with us outlanders as it were. In some cases they are so worried about having to "hear" the English they think is coming that they simply seem to turn off any listening skills in their native language with the end result being something like when you catch a tune on the radio on the wrong beat and you know you know the song, but it is just all wrong until something changes to resent the rhythm back to what you are used to. I remember back in my first semester of uni I went to Tokyo to meet up with some people and the annual Yasukuni embu was happening so I decided to check it out. The map I had was a bit unclear (as Japanese maps usually are) so while I knew I had to take one of two major roads branching out from the station, I couldn't tell which one. I asked an older lady selling food at a stand at the station in Japanese which street Yasukuni jinja was on. She freaks out and starts saying "Eigo wakaranai! Eigo wakaranai!" After going back and forth she finally "hears" Yasukuni jinja. I show her my map (written in Japanese) and ask which of the two streets we are facing is the one on the map with Yasukuni jinja on it. She freaks out again "Eigo yomenai!! Eigo yomenai!" Eventually she runs off and brings back an old man to help me instead. Thinking the problem is finally solved I repeat my original question (keeping in mind this entire discussion has been in Japanese from the start). His reply..... "Nnnnn.......Eigo wakaranai ne." Eventually I just went to the police box across the street and asked the officer standing there who just grunted and pointed me in the right direction.

Buck
12-31-2009, 03:21 PM
In response to complaints on my phonetic spelling of "shinto", I've been spelling it as "Shin Tao" which has been annoying some people.

A source:
Shinto is an ancient Japanese religion. Starting about 500 BCE (or earlier) it was originally "an amorphous mix of nature worship, fertility cults, divination techniques, hero worship, and shamanism." Its name was derived from the Chinese words "shin tao" ("The Way of the Gods")
http://www.religioustolerance.org/shinto.htm

People got upset privately and publically with my spelling of "Shinto".. in the end we are taking non-English characters and trying to translate in a phonetic language. So in the end I don't even think the spelling matters, but it was a big point to some to discredit my intelligence in general LOL :)

Too add:


"Shinto" originated in an early Chinese term pronounced Shentao. Shinto wasn't an organized religious tradition and practice that owes allot to its organization and content to Chinese and Buddist influences. It really isn't a indigenous religion of Japan, as many think, and reasonably so. Prior to it organization it was loosely organized around family lines having no central organization, without a common name, inferes an absense of a common accepted spelling in English. So when Buddhism and Chinese culture pop on scene before Shinto (or Shen tao per your prefer of spelling in English) in Japan was there a reason for distingushing the old traditional stuff from the new forign stuff. That includes language, a centralized or common name etc. The Japanese took up the Japanese expression of "kami no michi" a.k.a Shinto. It is despite the influences from the Buddists and Chinese on "kami no michi" that they kept the understood expression of "kami no michi."

So if anything, Shinto is Shentao or Shin tao ( heck we haven’t even talked impacts of native Japanese accents or dialects on the word, we just talkin’ spellin’ Cuz) can be acceptable spelling in the English language. Though many academic types use Shinto, and those McArthur pissed off, and the fall out from that results in the most frequent spelling of "kami no michi” as Shinto, it’s not the only one. That is why in English we do thing like use parenthesizes when we write as such, “The Shentao (Shinto) tradition….” That isn’t the only way we do it either, sometimes we use the word, “or” or a.k.a. explain it. Like for example, Shin tao, or also known as Shinto, etc. But, we don’t have toooo. Especially, here since this isn’t a publish text or anything. People, well most have brains, to figure it out.

And what we should really be typing furiously at our warrior keyboards in our bunny slippers is the more accurate and intended Japanese expression of "kami no michi" instead of Shinto or variations of spelling. Something which initially and originally lacked a common or central name. I am sure there where hundreds of other names for the old religious traditions of Japan before someone decided they needed a common name for it so it wouldn't get mixed up with the Buddist and Chinese stuff that it eventually was influenced and did get mixed up with it. Ouch! Someone did their hoooooomeworrrrrk, all in their bunny slippers. I bet I get an A+ LOL I know am going to be flammed, at least I will have my aikibunny flame retardent swimsuit on. :D

Buck
12-31-2009, 03:37 PM
Shinto or Shentao or Shin Tao by any other name....well you get. If it wasn't apparent in my post to some, Shinto does reflect the Chinese influence and is a Japanese-ization of the Chinese word, in the Chinese English translation spelling is spelled "Shentao." But I see no reason for a more accurate spelling of Shin tao to reflect the Chinese influence on "kami no michi." Shinto (the spelling) is really for us guijing types anyways. And who says in a 100 years ther' ain't gonna be a different spellin'. That does happen. :)

Ron Tisdale
12-31-2009, 03:38 PM
:confused: Cough...did you READ the posts in this thread? :rolleyes:

What was written was just plain wrong. The person who wrote it has acknowledged it was wrong. It was not a crime to be wrong, but I fail to see why someone would continue to try to defend it now that it has been clearly identified as wrong.

Best,
Ron

Buck
12-31-2009, 03:47 PM
:confused: Cough...did you READ the posts in this thread? :rolleyes:

What was written was just plain wrong. The person who wrote it has acknowledged it was wrong. It was not a crime to be wrong, but I fail to see why someone would continue to try to defend it now that it has been clearly identified as wrong.

Best,
Ron

I know Ron. I know....it's ok....am very subtle sometimes and it is hard for some to know what am getting at, at times. It's a fault of mine and I know. One of my points is it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. What matters is everyone but Maggie was wrong! And when Maggie used Shin Tao instead of the common spelling, I knew what she meant with the spelling. I got it. I wasn't posting to defend, but to add to, as stated in the first line of my post.

Happy New Year to you, and keep safe this holiday. And take care of that cough. :)

Ron Tisdale
12-31-2009, 03:49 PM
Thanks Buck, I'm gonna stay warm and inside with my SO and a good meal and a good wine! Off the roads feels safest this time of year ;)

Best,
Ron