O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?

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[Janet Rosen]

O' sensei.....Probably because he was a Shin Tao priest..

???

[mathewjgano]

???

I'm guessing she meant "Shinto" but I don't know that he was a priest. I believe there's a category of shrine membership for non-priests who have undergone some formal training. My guess is that he fit into that category, but I could be wrong.

[RED]

???

As a spiritual basis, Shin Tao(Sorry, Chinese characters for Shinto.) thought is that sound is the energy that moves the universe. Thus, O'sensei thought music was likened to Aikido from a spiritual basis. :-D

[RED]

I'm guessing she meant "Shinto" but I don't know that he was a priest. I believe there's a category of shrine membership for non-priests who have undergone some formal training. My guess is that he fit into that category, but I could be wrong.

I know he was called a "mystic", and he's been known to have trained clergymen. And he wore a white hakama,(all shrine workers did) I don't know if anything ever comes out and says he is a priest I'm also having trouble finding any text that comes out and says the leaders of the Shinto were priests. But if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....

[Janet Rosen]

As a spiritual basis, Shin Tao(Sorry, Chinese characters for Shinto.) thought is that sound is the energy that moves the universe. Thus, O'sensei thought music was likened to Aikido from a spiritual basis. :-D

I'm not disputing the central role of kotodama in OSensei's spiritualism (which I believe is not mainstream shinto but omoto-kyo) rather referring to him as a shinto priest.

[RED]

I'm not disputing the central role of kotodama in OSensei's spiritualism (which I believe is not mainstream shinto but omoto-kyo) rather referring to him as a shinto priest.

I actually don't know if he was really a priest or not. All I know is that there wasn't much a of a prerequisite to becoming a priest. Every shrine had one priest, and he was typically self appointed.

[Ron Tisdale]

I know he was called a "mystic", and he's been known to have trained clergymen. And he wore a white hakama,(all shrine workers did) I don't know if anything ever comes out and says he is a priest I'm also having trouble finding any text that comes out and says the leaders of the Shinto were priests. But if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....

Ok, I'm sorry, and please don't take offense. But. Do you just make this stuff up???

Best,
Ron

[RED]

Ok, I'm sorry, and please don't take offense. But. Do you just make this stuff up???

Best,
Ron

:confused:

[Ryan Seznee]

Ok, I'm sorry, and please don't take offense. But. Do you just make this stuff up???

Best,
Ron

Who wouldn't be offended that you think they are a liar? Wouldn't you be upset is someone said the same to you? You can should give some one a social out if you genienly don't want to offend them, like "I think you might be mistaken". This gives the person a chance to back out graciously instead of them being forced to eather be defensive or aggressive.

Back on point, "A Life in Aikido" is a book written by Kisshomaru Ueshiba is a book that talks a little about O'Sensei's life. In it he tells a lot of antidotes about how O'Sensei saw ghosts, tengu, and such... I would say that makes him a mystic. He also tells about how one Moriteru Ueshiba became involved with the Omoto-kyo sect of Shinto. He was a personal acquaintance of Oinsaburo Deguchi, the leader of the Omoto-kyo sect at the time. During this time Moriteru Ueshiba is said to have a student by the name of Naohi Deguchi, who became the third leader of this sect, as well as the majority of the Omoto staff at that time. He taught priest, the majority of the com unity (in a religious commune mind you), and was a noted personal confidant of the leader of the movement (a priest himself). I would say that gives strong evidence that he ether was a priest or was at least sound enough in Shinto doctrine to entrust future generations of priests. Read the book (it is pretty good), if anyone is making it up, it is Kisshomaru Ueshiba.

[Michael Hackett]

Ryan,

Isn't Ueshiba Moriteru the current Doshu and grandson of Ueshiba Morihei?

[Kent Enfield]

I know he was called a "mystic", and he's been known to have trained clergymen. And he wore a white hakama,(all shrine workers did)
Except for when they wear red. Or blue. Or purple. Or . . .

And lots of people wear white hakama.

All I know is that there wasn't much a of a prerequisite to becoming a priest. Every shrine had one priest, and he was typically self appointed.
Really? How does that work? Do you just walk into the shrine and declare, "I'm the priest now. You, get out." And when someone comes and asks for oharai or other services, you just make it up?

To follow Ron's thoughts, stop making shit up.

[akiy]

Please watch the tone of your postings, folks.

-- Jun

[Ryan Seznee]

Ryan,

Isn't Ueshiba Moriteru the current Doshu and grandson of Ueshiba Morihei?

You are correct, I made a typo. In my previous post, Moriteru Ueshiba is should be replaced with Ueshiba Morihei. The facts are still the same. Kisshomaru Ueshiba is also Ueshiba Morihei's youngest son, so it was an interesting perspective on his life.

[Russ Q]

Hi all,

It's as if Ron did irimi but no tenkan.....:-)

Merry Christmas,

Russ

[Michael Hackett]

I've gone back through my library and can't find a single reference that suggests that Ueshiba Morihei was a Shinto priest. I'm very confident that he was a member of the Omoto sect of Shintoism and that he was close to Deguchi Onisaburo. The record is clear that he accompanied Deguchi to Mongolia on the ill-fated expedition. The record seems equally clear that he avoided the suppression of the sect through his powerful military and civil patrons who supported his budo teaching.

I suppose he could have been called a mystic as well since he claimed all sorts of extraordinary events such as the famed "golden light" story. Those may have happened (who am I to say?), he may have BELIEVED they happened, and he may well have made the whole thing up to enhance his reputation.

For me, the bottom line is that Ueshiba O Sensei was a very complex character, a strongly religious follower of Omoto, and that there is no evidence presented that he was a priest of any denomination. He certainly practiced the kotodama and lead others in the practice, but that doesn't translate to priesthood either. I suggest that he was a layman, much like some christian religions currently have laymen serving as "deacons" and other titles.

The fact that he taught Omoto followers his martial art isn't persuasive evidence of priesthood either. At times they were living in a communal style and the residents surely gave of their talents to the group. He taught martial arts, others did construction and so on.

As for the white hakama, I've seen many photographs of individuals wearing white hakama who clearly weren't priests - the most recent person I've seen in the white hakama was Ellis Amdur Sensei at the Aiki Expo. I won't say that Amdur Sensei is or isn't a Shinto priest, but some of his writings strongly discuss his faith.

So, was he or wasn't he? I don't think so, but will keep an open mind in anticipation of some evidence or source material.

[RED]

Except for when they wear red. Or blue. Or purple. Or . . .

And lots of people wear white hakama.

Really? How does that work? Do you just walk into the shrine and declare, "I'm the priest now. You, get out." And when someone comes and asks for oharai or other services, you just make it up?

To follow Ron's thoughts, stop making shit up.

I don't appreciate the tone of your post.
If you think this is all bull, then you could ask "hmm,I've never heard that, where did you get it from?" Then we'd have a conversation about where I've heard this.
Instead you are being confrontational in a way that's coming across like you intend to incite an argument.
I can explain my sources to you if you actually want a conversation about the issue? But if your intent in posting was simply to incite an argument I'm really not game.

[RED]

So, was he or wasn't he? I don't think so, but will keep an open mind in anticipation of some evidence or source material.

I'm not entirely sure if he was or was not as well at this point. I've always assumed he was due to things said by my teachers and one Shihan.
I've found a lot of things that referred to this movement as a 'cult' at first. So I'm wondering if the terms were loser back then for what constituted priesthood and what did not. A lot is unsubstantial right now for me. I'm looking stuff up.
I'm once again, getting all my info from: "A Life In Aikido" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba

[Ryan Seznee]

Really? How does that work? Do you just walk into the shrine and declare, "I'm the priest now. You, get out."

In the "Please help with a small bit of history" thread, there is a comment that the Omoto Kyo sect requires all of its members to go through training of a priest (his involvement was 10 years ago so his information might be dated). This training lasted a week, and Steven Segal has claimed to be a shinto priest before, so it isn't that outrageous considering O'Sensei had a shinto shrine in every dojo he owned since his involvement in the Omoto Kyo sect.

I am personally a bit of a history buff, so any information you have on the subject would be appreciated. I am basing most of my information on O'Sensei's religious background on "A Life In Aikido" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, "Essence of Aikido" by Ueshiba, Morihei, and "Phylosophy of Aikido" by John Stevens. What evidence do you have to support he was not?

[Ellis Amdur]

Ueshiba - mystic, no doubt. Devotee and worshiper at shrines - no doubt. Shinto priest. NO.

White hakama are worn by many kendoka and other koryu folks.
Here's one of jodo (http://www.cairnsyouthcentre.org.au/assets/images/Kendo-web.jpg):
And pre-war, more than a few aikidoka wore white hakama. After the war, it was relegated to Ueshiba and to 9th - 10th dan. Here's Iwata Hajime (http://www.aiki.rs/images/iwata.jpg).
Here's Hikitsuchi (http://www.aikidosj.com/aikiimages/jack_with_hikitsuchi.JPG), Here's Hikitsuchi and Ueshiba,
(http://www.newschoolaikido.org/newsletters/2004/July/images/o-sensei_hikitsuchi.jpg) I'm told that in this picture Ueshiba told Hikitsuchi that it was an "unholy day" - sort of like "casual Fridays at certain banks. So they dressed down to go bar hopping and get ripped on cheap shochu (O.K., I made that up).

I've attached a picture from a demo in St. Louis. From L-R, there's Will Schutt, Diane Skoss, Meik Skoss, Phil Relnick, Larry Bieri, Dave Lowry, moi, and my student, Steve Bowman. (Why are all those people so little? Well, that's another discussion, I suppose).
Phil Relnick had the microphone answering questions, and someone asked the significance of the different hakama and keikko-gi and Phil graciously and unwisely handed the mic to me. I replied, "Well, the colors of the clothes are symbolize of one's moral intent and attainment. You see these people on my right, wearing all dark clothes, blue or black. They have embraced evil. I, wearing white, have embraced good. My student Steve, here, on my left, just can make up his mind yet which way he wants to go.
Merry Xmas
Ellis Amdur

[akiy]

Hi Maggie, Ryan,

If I may step in for a moment...

It seems as though you have stirred up a veritable hornets nest with your thoughts that Morihei Ueshiba was a Shinto priest.

I think that the disbelief that you are encountering comes from the research undertaken by many, including those in this thread, that does not support your thoughts. Many people here have read the same books that you have, (some in its original Japanese language -- "Aikido Ichiro" and "Aikido Kaiso Ueshiba Morihei Den" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba) and have walked away not having found what you are claiming.

I'm sure that should you produce a substantive piece of evidence that points to Morihei Ueshiba's having been a Shinto priest, people would be quite interested, and most likely, happy to be proven wrong. But, until then, as what you are asserting is out of the norm, the burden of proof lies with you in pointing us towards the evidence (e.g. a quote and the page number from a book) that supports your assertion.

(As far as the other evidence cited of Morihei Ueshiba having worn a white hakama, having been called a mystic, and having had a Shinto shrine in all of his dojo, I would consider all of these to be circumstantial evidence -- many folks who are not Shinto priests wear white hakama, being called a "mystic" does not confer that person with priesthood necessarily, and the presence of a Shinto "shrine" in a dojo does not its dojocho into a Shinto priest make. I believe this is what many here in this thread are objecting to.)

Best,

-- Jun

PS: Thanks, Ellis, for your thoughts. I'm still making up my mind of which way I want to go myself...

[Ron Tisdale]

PS: Thanks, Ellis, for your thoughts. I'm still making up my mind of which way I want to go myself...
Oh no Jun, you, of all people, have definately chosen the light. You still tolerate old sour pusses like me, so it must be true! ;)

Who wouldn't be offended that you think they are a liar? Wouldn't you be upset is someone said the same to you? You can should give some one a social out if you genienly don't want to offend them, like "I think you might be mistaken". This gives the person a chance to back out graciously instead of them being forced to eather be defensive or aggressive.

Dude, if I want to call someone a liar, I know how to type the word. If at some point I decide to use the word, no one will have to wonder.

Best, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and to all, a Good Night.
Ron

[RED]

I actually only said he was in passing, off of what I've read and heard seniors suggest.
I'm not exactly sure why it stirs so much up. It was never any claim I defended passionately.
I feel a bit on egg shells.

[Kent Enfield]

If you think this is all bull, then you could ask "hmm,I've never heard that, where did you get it from?" Then we'd have a conversation about where I've heard this.
That assumes that I think a hypothesis about Ueshiba Morihei being a Shinto priest based on his wearing white hakama and being a martial arts instructor for a cult is worth having a conversation about. That's akin to claiming that someone is a Christian priest because he wears black shirts and teaches boxing at the YMCA.

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Maggie, I'm just an old curmugeon. I probably didn't even spell that correctly. Just feel free to ignore me when I get cranky, and please don't take it personally.

Best,
Ron

[RED]

That assumes that I think a hypothesis about Ueshiba Morihei being a Shinto priest based on his wearing white hakama and being a martial arts instructor for a cult is worth having a conversation about. That's akin to claiming that someone is a Christian priest because he wears black shirts and teaches boxing at the YMCA.

I had no hypothesis. That's what I've been saying.

[RED]

Hi Maggie, I'm just an old curmugeon. I probably didn't even spell that correctly. Just feel free to ignore me when I get cranky, and please don't take it personally.

Best,
Ron

It is alright. I didn't take offense.

[Ryan Seznee]

Hi Maggie, Ryan,

If I may step in for a moment...

It seems as though you have stirred up a veritable hornets nest with your thoughts that Morihei Ueshiba was a Shinto priest.

I think that the disbelief that you are encountering comes from the research undertaken by many, including those in this thread, that does not support your thoughts. Many people here have read the same books that you have, (some in its original Japanese language -- "Aikido Ichiro" and "Aikido Kaiso Ueshiba Morihei Den" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba) and have walked away not having found what you are claiming.

I'm sure that should you produce a substantive piece of evidence that points to Morihei Ueshiba's having been a Shinto priest, people would be quite interested, and most likely, happy to be proven wrong. But, until then, as what you are asserting is out of the norm, the burden of proof lies with you in pointing us towards the evidence (e.g. a quote and the page number from a book) that supports your assertion.

(As far as the other evidence cited of Morihei Ueshiba having worn a white hakama, having been called a mystic, and having had a Shinto shrine in all of his dojo, I would consider all of these to be circumstantial evidence -- many folks who are not Shinto priests wear white hakama, being called a "mystic" does not confer that person with priesthood necessarily, and the presence of a Shinto "shrine" in a dojo does not its dojocho into a Shinto priest make. I believe this is what many here in this thread are objecting to.)

Best,

-- Jun

PS: Thanks, Ellis, for your thoughts. I'm still making up my mind of which way I want to go myself...

The main point of my involvement in this post was to get more information on the subject. Shinto seems to be the most non-standard religion I have heard of aside from Hinduism. Both refer not to one, but hundreds of unique practices that all have separate rules, rituals, and culturally significant meanings that seem very confusing to an outsider. I came here trying to find knowledge, not instigate an argument. I would still like more information if anyone has any. I don't mind being wrong, but you must give me a good reason for me to believe I am :)

As far as my sources, I listed them as an explanation of my line of thinking, not to persuade others to think as I do. Conversations of religion tend to get... personal, so I try not to argue about it. I pulled sources out to refute the accusation that the theory was based upon something made up, not to convert others to my line of thinking. My evidence I am citing is circumstantial, but frankly, O'Sensei was not a historically significant person to a lot of people and the Omoto kyo sect kind of kept to itself, so information about O'Sensei's life while he was living there is kind of irregular and based largely on first hand accounts that have most likely been exaggerated over the years.

As for people with an opposing view, the hypothesis that O'Sensei was not a shinto priest is also still a hypothesis. If you are disagreeing without information to back it up or without putting forward another hypothesis, the first is just inconclusive. If anyone would care, list the sources and information you are basing that very definite opinion off of, as it would provide more information on the subject. :D

[Flintstone]

The main point of my involvement in this post was to get more information on the subject. Shinto seems to be the most non-standard religion I have heard of aside from Hinduism. Both refer not to one, but hundreds of unique practices that all have separate rules, rituals, and culturally significant meanings that seem very confusing to an outsider. I came here trying to find knowledge, not instigate an argument. I would still like more information if anyone has any. I don't mind being wrong, but you must give me a good reason for me to believe I am :)

As far as my sources, I listed them as an explanation of my line of thinking, not to persuade others to think as I do. Conversations of religion tend to get... personal, so I try not to argue about it. I pulled sources out to refute the accusation that the theory was based upon something made up, not to convert others to my line of thinking. My evidence I am citing is circumstantial, but frankly, O'Sensei was not a historically significant person to a lot of people and the Omoto kyo sect kind of kept to itself, so information about O'Sensei's life while he was living there is kind of irregular and based largely on first hand accounts that have most likely been exaggerated over the years.

As for people with an opposing view, the hypothesis that O'Sensei was not a shinto priest is also still a hypothesis. If you are disagreeing without information to back it up or without putting forward another hypothesis, the first is just inconclusive. If anyone would care, list the sources and information you are basing that very definite opinion off of, as it would provide more information on the subject. :D

Do you REALLY believe it is US who must prove that O Sensei was NOT a Shinto priest?

[Sy Labthavikul]

The main point of my involvement in this post was to get more information on the subject. Shinto seems to be the most non-standard religion I have heard of aside from Hinduism. Both refer not to one, but hundreds of unique practices that all have separate rules, rituals, and culturally significant meanings that seem very confusing to an outsider.

What classifies as a "standard religion"? :D Actually lets not go there.

My evidence I am citing is circumstantial, but frankly, O'Sensei was not a historically significant person to a lot of people and the Omoto kyo sect kind of kept to itself, so information about O'Sensei's life while he was living there is kind of irregular and based largely on first hand accounts that have most likely been exaggerated over the years.


Actually, I believe Morihei Ueshiba's life has been pretty well documented, by Stanley Pranin and other historians. Morihei Ueshiba is actually a fairly prominent and significant figure in Japan, along with Jigaro Kano, Gichin Funakoshi, and others. A little research seems warranted.


As for people with an opposing view, the hypothesis that O'Sensei was not a shinto priest is also still a hypothesis. If you are disagreeing without information to back it up or without putting forward another hypothesis, the first is just inconclusive. If anyone would care, list the sources and information you are basing that very definite opinion off of, as it would provide more information on the subject. :D

Here's a start, from the aikido historian himself, Stanley Pranin:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia.php?entryID=723

Could not find mention of "priest" or even "Shinto" (other than mention of Kashima Shinto ryu) anywhere there. And please don't say "just because it doesn't say it there doesn't mean it isn't possible," because then I will lay down the hypothesis that O'Sensei was a fan of Steven Seagal movies.

[PEC]

"Well, the colors of the clothes are symbolize of one's moral intent and attainment. You see these people on my right, wearing all dark clothes, blue or black. They have embraced evil. I, wearing white, have embraced good. My student Steve, here, on my left, just can make up his mind yet which way he wants to go."


You could be the devil in disguise :rolleyes:
Merry XMas

Pablo

[Ryan Seznee]

Do you REALLY believe it is US who must prove that O Sensei was NOT a Shinto priest?

Why MUST someone prove anything? Why can't we just discuss a topic in peace?

[Ryan Seznee]

What classifies as a "standard religion"? :D Actually lets not go there.

Actually, I believe Morihei Ueshiba's life has been pretty well documented, by Stanley Pranin and other historians. Morihei Ueshiba is actually a fairly prominent and significant figure in Japan, along with Jigaro Kano, Gichin Funakoshi, and others. A little research seems warranted.

Here's a start, from the aikido historian himself, Stanley Pranin:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia.php?entryID=723

Could not find mention of "priest" or even "Shinto" (other than mention of Kashima Shinto ryu) anywhere there. And please don't say "just because it doesn't say it there doesn't mean it isn't possible," because then I will lay down the hypothesis that O'Sensei was a fan of Steven Seagal movies.

To clear up so as not to offend anyone who may be Shinto out there, I meant it has no standard Dogma, no common myths of creation, and a lot of versions of it have unique laws, customs, and traditions that are all together seperate and unique from other versions of Shintoism. Just like in Hinduism can refer to number of differant religeons originating in India in which have less comonalities than similarities.

I wouldn't go there because I have no intention of proving anything myself. I come on here selfishly asking for more information and only meant the chalenge as a way to get people to provide more information.

Thank you for the info :D

[Rev.K. Barrish]

Good Morning everyone,

Akiyama-san thank you for you kind message.

As for Kaiso (Ueshiba O’Sensei) being the Kannushi/ Shinto Priest.

O’Sensei was the unique human being who is considered to have become the Kami...the Shinto Priests I have known personally that worked with O’Sensei (my direct teacher Yamamoto Yukitaka Sen-Dai Guji- previous High Priest of Tsubaki Grand Shrine in Mie http://www.tsubaki.or.jp/ conducted the Chinzasai [ceremony to enshrine Aikido’s Guardian Kami- Sarutahiko Okami in Iwama Aiki Jinja] have all had the most profound and utmost respect for Kaiso.

O’Sensei’s spirituality and dedication to the Kami were unparalleled…however he was not the Kannushi (Shinto priest). As for colors of Hakama worn by Shinto Priests…

White is the color of Okami’s purification..it is worn by all Shinto Priests during certain ceremonies and is also worn by non shrine professionals on various occasions.

Entry level Shinto Priests always wear white, but sometimes very senior Shinto Priests will wear white in their own shrines.

Gon-negi/ assistant Senior priests will often wear mizu-iro (light blue or turquoise color) sashibakama

Negi/full senior priests will usually wear murasaki (purple) sashibakama

Ikkyu ranked Shinto Priests will wear the purple with mon (emblems)

Tokkyu (highest rank Shinto priests [very rare]) will wear white with emblems

Every wish for everyone’s health and happiness during the Holiday Season and throughout the New Year (Kanoe/ Tora Doshi/ Happaku Dosei) coming

Koichi Barrish
Negi
Tsubaki Grand Shrine of America
www.Tsubakishrine.org

[Ron Tisdale]

Why MUST someone prove anything? Why can't we just discuss a topic in peace?

Some things are true, some things are false, some things are debatable. That's just life. Nothing to do with "peace", in any overt sense.

To clear up so as not to offend anyone who may be Shinto out there, I meant it has no standard Dogma, no common myths of creation, and a lot of versions of it have unique laws, customs, and traditions that are all together seperate and unique from other versions of Shintoism.

I *thought* that most if not all forms of shinto do have many of the things above with the exception of a standard dogma. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who can shed some informed light on that.

Many of the diverse forms of christianity also have differences that can readily fit into those classifications above. They may or may not be "mainstream"...but even comparing mormanism vs catholisicm seems to reveal " a lot of versions of ...unique laws, customs, and traditions that are all together seperate and unique from other versions"...

And perhaps some differences in creation myths as well. For what it's worth.
Best,
Ron

[Michael Hackett]

Pablo,

If you've ever seen Ellis Amdur with a bokken in his hand, you'd know that he IS the devil and without a disquise!

[Ryan Seznee]

Good Morning everyone,

Akiyama-san thank you for you kind message.

As for Kaiso (Ueshiba O'Sensei) being the Kannushi/ Shinto Priest.

O'Sensei was the unique human being who is considered to have become the Kami...the Shinto Priests I have known personally that worked with O'Sensei (my direct teacher Yamamoto Yukitaka Sen-Dai Guji- previous High Priest of Tsubaki Grand Shrine in Mie http://www.tsubaki.or.jp/ conducted the Chinzasai [ceremony to enshrine Aikido's Guardian Kami- Sarutahiko Okami in Iwama Aiki Jinja] have all had the most profound and utmost respect for Kaiso.

O'Sensei's spirituality and dedication to the Kami were unparalleled…however he was not the Kannushi (Shinto priest). As for colors of Hakama worn by Shinto Priests…

White is the color of Okami's purification..it is worn by all Shinto Priests during certain ceremonies and is also worn by non shrine professionals on various occasions.

Entry level Shinto Priests always wear white, but sometimes very senior Shinto Priests will wear white in their own shrines.

Gon-negi/ assistant Senior priests will often wear mizu-iro (light blue or turquoise color) sashibakama

Negi/full senior priests will usually wear murasaki (purple) sashibakama

Ikkyu ranked Shinto Priests will wear the purple with mon (emblems)

Tokkyu (highest rank Shinto priests [very rare]) will wear white with emblems

Every wish for everyone's health and happiness during the Holiday Season and throughout the New Year (Kanoe/ Tora Doshi/ Happaku Dosei) coming

Koichi Barrish
Negi
Tsubaki Grand Shrine of America
www.Tsubakishrine.org

Thank you for clarifying.

[Don_Modesto]

Stray toughts, fwiw:

1) Shinto vs shintao: point clarified in another thread very nicely.
Another point pertinent is convention: Shinto is just spelled that way the same way that judo is spelled like that and not juudou or juudoo.

2) Osensei as priest.
Omoto, following the pattern of many "new religions" has a flattened hierarchy with many lay preachers. Judging by what we know of him through his students' interviews, Osensei certainly preached. But hard to hold to the idea of him being a priest when Omoto probably has nothing quite like that category.

3) Omoto as Shinto.
Shinto underwent a decided mongrelization coming into Meiji, ironic as Tokugawa just before it was a period of intended purification of "foreign elements" (Buddhism). Trembling at the impending threat of colonization by Europeans, foretold by Perry's hubristic gallivanting into Uraga Bay, the Japanese wanted unity to repel the foe and used Shinto as a means to this end. Having tried to destroy Buddhism (many Buddhist monks simply shed their monastic robes and put on priest's clothes), the authorities demanded that religious expression fall within the purview of State Shinto, ie, join a shrine system or disband. Deguchi had actually gone to Shinto school (for 2 years, IIRC) and so qualified. But his actual practice was more in line with shamanism than the ritual of Shinto, and could be considered Shinto mainly through political posturing.

A post to archive on the subject, is Wm Bodiford's at: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=87889&postcount=18

[RED]

Some things are true, some things are false, some things are debatable.



And some things just aren't worth debating. With all respect. :)
This has exploded from my misplace comment saying the word "priest". I'm fully willing to admit that it was an incorrect term if I was allowed to digress.

My grandmother said, "If you ain't dying I don't want to hear no bitching." In the end I think that has some wisdom to it. Somethings are worth getting up in arms over, and somethings aren't. And this has exploded wayyy past my first inquiry.

peace!

[Janet Rosen]

OK, I've been offline a couple days. I'm the one who stirred it up originally, first by posting "???" in response to Maggie's post, then clarifying that AFAIK OSensei was not a priest, although (per the original discussion of music) kotodama was important.
Why the fuss? Because over the yrs there have been many claims made about OSensei, a lot of which aren't based in fact. So for some of us, esp those who respect but do not deify him, it pushes buttons when we read another inaccuracy.

[Charles Hill]

Oomoto kyo itself uses the words "priest" and "sectarian Shinto" in their English materials.

However, what they are translating into "priest" is 宣伝使(sen den shi), a word they apparently made up. It means something like "someone who transmits the message" and is linguistically close to "missionary."

So, it is pretty clear that O'Sensei was not a Shinto "priest" in the common usage of the term.

[thisisnotreal]

Hello,

Okay; I believe and think he's not a "priest"; but what about this...

re: 2) Osensei as priest.
Here taking 'Priest' not necessarily as teacher/etc, but as interlocutor or interceding personality, ministering to the people.

This, I think, is addressed in E. Amdur's, Hidden In Plain Sight, pp 167-8.
I don't know how much doo-doo i'd be invoking if i typed out the full relevant sections but if i had my druthers; I'd repeat the section starting "Follow Me...or Not"

This is all I dare to quote:
"He [Ueshiba] says that all that is necessary is for the Byakko Shinko Kai members to pray with Goi, and he will take responsibility for the rest. "Goi Sensei is a Great Bridge given to human beings who connects numerous worlds we need to pass through in order to reach God". So , too was Ueshiba's relationship to his own followers.

My opinion and understanding: This suggests more than the role of a common layman/MA teacher; and closer to a religious leader/teacher/priest. Is it wrong?

This seemed relevant to the thread. I guess it can be viewed as a type of 'missionary', as per Charles, but that quote above, (and truthfully, the entire section in the book) put things in a different light than I had ever read before about these things. I don't mean to be contentious by posting this. Ellis' work was new and interesting and spoke about things I have wondered (often & deeply) about.

Josh

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Pablo,

If you've ever seen Ellis Amdur with a bokken in his hand, you'd know that he IS the devil and without a disquise!

And if he says he's going to serve you a cup of tea... run like hell .)

OTOH,

I'm not entirely sure if he was or was not as well at this point. I've always assumed he was due to things said by my teachers and one Shihan.

Teachers and shihan are like other people, outside of their field of expertise (bending wrists and the like, in this case), they are not reliable sources.

[RED]

Teachers and shihan are like other people, outside of their field of expertise (bending wrists and the like, in this case), they are not reliable sources.

I agree with that. Also, sometimes people will say one thing, meaning another thing to their students.

I'm a little sponge though. I hear everything that's said to me, and try to make sense of it all.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Keep an open mind but don't allow your brains to fall to the ground cause the opening.

[Toby Threadgill]

Hello,

Bear with me as I confuse or clarify this discussion, depending on your understanding of Shinto and its connection to martial traditions.....

Shinto is in fact a general term that encompasses many indigenous Japanese folk customs, beliefs, traditions, rituals and cultural observences. Within the modern Shinto community is the dominant institutional form of Shinto referred to as "Shrine Shinto". There is also "Sect Shinto" encompassing forms like Omoto kyo, and "Minzoku (folk) Shinto", representing independent local cultural traditions that are frequently forms of Ko Shinto (Old Shinto) only loosely connected to other Shinto traditions and rituals.

Within some classical martial traditions exists various forms of Minzoku Shinto. These forms of Shinto are frequently syncretic, observing a highly diverse collection of traditions and rituals. In these martial traditions it is part of the headmasters responsibility to function as the de facto kannushi of the school. This is exactly the case in Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu. Consequently, one official position I hold within Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu is that of the schools kannushi. I was instructed by my teacher, Yukiyoshi Takamura, in the execution of various Shinto rituals traditionally observed in our koryu. As part of this responsibility I was required to memorize a significant compendium of Shinto Norito, some of these unique to TSYR. Last week I performed the Susu Harai Shinji which symbolizes the beginning of a period of rest and purification for the dojo, in preparation for Shogatsu/Saitansai and Kagami Baraki (New Years Observances).

So the question some people might ask is, does that make me a Shinto priest? The answer is no, not really, but that depends on your perspective. Within the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu membership, I am a Shinto priest of sorts, but outside that membership, the answer would have to be no. I could not in ANY fashion represent myself as a Shinto priest in the way most people associate the term.

Although Rev K. Barrish has spoken definitively on the subject of Ueshiba Morihei, consider why he answered the way he did. Before WW2 Ueshiba was a member of Omoto Kyo. After WW2 Ueshiba was also operating well within the more orthodox Shrine Shinto circles, visiting shrines like Tsubaki O Kami Yashiro and seeking council with Rev Yukitaka Yamamoto. By walking this path he was acknowledging specific loyalty to the observances of both Omoto Kyo and Shrine Shinto. I am unaware of any instance when Ueshiba represented himself as also operating outside this sphere by claiming to be the kannushi of Aikido. Aikido as a modern budo had no previous connection to Minzoku Shinto nor did Ueshiba represent Aikido as reflecting its own unique branch of Shinto. Ueshiba thru his actions made it obvious that he saw himself as a devoted representative/follower of these traditions, recognizing their existing hierarchical structure.

Now, back to me. Takamura sensei became critically ill before he could teach me all I needed to learn about the Minzoku Shinto that formed the core of our spiritual traditions. Therefore he advised me to approach Shrine Shinto for further guidance in our observation and understanding of Shinto ritual and belief. Consequently, The Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai operates as a official branch of Tsubaki America, with Rev K Barrish assisting us in better understanding and representing the unique Shinto heritage left to us.

Last year Takamura sensei was officially enshrined as kami and now takes his place as an ujigami of Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu. This was a very unique and significant event for TSYR. Rev K. Barrish undertook the daunting task of spearheading this effort in Japan and we remain grateful for his assistance in this pursuit.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

[Janet Rosen]

Toby, many thanks for a cogent clarification AND for a fascinating account of how the traditions are maintained today within a m.a. context.

[Buck]

Now that it has been established O'Sensei wasn't officially considered a Shinto/Shin Tao priest.

A hypothetical was proposed that O’Sensei was a Shinto/Shin Tao priest. This could have been a very enjoyable and educational thread discussed appropriately by a less than a handful of people who are clearly qualified to do so. It does seem rare that a handful of such qualified people make a concert contribution to a signal thread, as seen here. That in its self is valuable opportunity to refrain from posting and listen.

I personally think of all tetchy and gnashing protesting posts, rising against the proposed idea O’Sensei was a Shinto/Shin Tao priest was distracting from the posts of those who are qualified to address the hypothetical mentioned in passing. I understand the need by those to be disagreeable and such. Everyone wants to be heard, and chime in. I think by not doing so would have hallmarked the thread. I also think that marking someone as evil/enemy for presenting a rational, reasonable and strong possibility should face a multitude of torches and pitchforks. But, instead be treated with the politeness, reason, civility and dignity, as incorporated by the tenets of O’Sensei. It would have made the thread a better thread without all that stuff, because the voices of knowledge would have rung louder and clearer.

I don’t think there is anyone, anywhere who hasn’t misunderstood O’Sensei and his achievements. We all have said something that has been incorrect concerning O’Sensei and his life or Aikido. In this situation the statement of O’Sensei being a priest was prefaced. And then later it was clearly stated again that O’Sensei being a priest wasn’t believed to be absolute fact, but rather a possibility- and a reasonable one at that.

It is not unreasonable to think for most people in or outside, Japanese or not Japanese, to think the possibility that O’Sensei was a Shin Tao/ Shinto priest is possible and reasonable. This is for all the obvious reasons, and then some. Not everyone has access to such information as result of experience, background, opportunity as the Rev. or Ellis for example not to think O’Sensei was a priest. A lot of Aikido( and O’Sensei’s life) information is orally past down, in books or on the net, all of which are not always accurate or complete. There is no real solid Aikido/O’Sensei bible out there to tell us. There are a limited number of people in the world who has had contact with O’Sensei long enough to be experts on him and yet they information varies widely from one another. Finally, let’s not for get O’Sensei and the complexity of his personality, persona and achievements. And on top of that the ambiguity of Aikido and O’Sensei leads to personal interpretations, personal inferences, everyone being expert and stuff on O”Sensei from across the spectrum of us Aikidokas; an event in behavior evidently seen in this and thousands of other threads. it’s no wonder why it is so difficult to know what is or isn’t fact or truth regarding Aikido and O’Sensei’s life.

If people really want the truth to be heard it might be advantageous to incorporate a few things in how they threat what they read or hear. First, we are all ignorant of O’Sensei’s life, a life that was ambiguous, complicated, intricate, and unique, to say the least. A life unique that was not well recorded in a way that is conducive to internet discussions, much less an bibliography that appeases everyone. A life lead that creates more questions than answers, where things seem to be that aren’t and visa versa. A heavily layered multifaceted life and belief system that leaves more questions than it does answers; so much so, it’s hard for anyone to accurately compose the correct picture. Second, falling into hypocrisy. I know think anyone hasn’t said something inaccurate or incorrect. Therefore, reevaluate when flaming someone in threads like this, is it really saying hypocrite? Not to mention flaming is unnecessary noise, and sign of not having anything worthwhile to contribute to the discussion. Third, there is someone who knows more then you, and what your response might be just as inaccurate and incorrect. Finally, is what you have to say just for you to hear yourself talk or is it something valuable to the discussion. If you derail the thread with empty comments for the purpose of seeing your name on the thread, or establish slaps on the back from those of a similar intent and class will anything be corrected or achieved? Will the fact or truth prevail or will it be squelched for the sake of one’s vanity, and a few virtual feel good high-fives from the guys.

Basically, respect the thread and what is trying to be achieved. In these thread exercise self-disciple and restraint, if you don’t adhere to civil discourse, especially in the face of those in the know. Aikido is hard enough and the vast amount of information on Aikido and O’Sensei’s life is shrouded in good-hearted and reasonable misconceptions, half-truths and stuff for the reasons I mention before. I have learned to approach any subject of O’Sensei and his life carefully, ask questions more than state it. As I said, there is no bible, no universally accepted definitive complete and accurate factual account of his life, what he believed, and how he meant it, and stuff. I don’t think there will ever be. Therefore, I think it would do us all good to take the advantage of the opportunity to refrain from commenting, and listen. I feel it is best to refrain from aggressive posting in this sort of discussion, so not to clutter and muffle the rare moments where something can be rightly established by those who can.

FWIW

[Buck]

Now the question is did O'Sensei think of himself as a priest. If so or if not than what is the impact of that on Aikido and Aikidoka.

If he was a Kami does that dwarf the position or importance of being a priest?

What is the importance of the any of it? That is outside the importance of being on the record a fact he wasn’t and not a reasonable misconception he was.

[Ron Tisdale]

A) There is no Shin Tao, so there is no need to include it in your post. It will just confuse the issue, and someone will come on and quote your post saying it is accurate. Not helpful.

B) It is perfectly *reasonable* to not know something.

It is not *reasonable* to argue the point once a mistake has been pointed out, or to have your dojo mates come on and argue the point for you, as if you needed the support in the first place. If something is wrong, it is wrong no matter HOW many people support it. Adding to the numbers of people who don't know something doesn't help. It simply compounds the original problem. Asking a question NEVER hurts. Giving wrong answers ALWAYS hurts. Calling people sexist for objecting to incorrect information ALWAYS hurts.

C) You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. I most often see posts like this from people who wish to be able to be heard, but who do not really wish to listen.

As I said, there is no bible, no universally accepted definitive complete and accurate factual account of his life, what he believed, and how he meant it, and stuff.

If you believe this, then you might want to reconsider making statements like this:

But, instead be treated with the politeness, reason, civility and dignity, as incorporated by the tenets of O’Sensei.

You might also want to look up the word

mal⋅a⋅prop⋅ism  /ˈmæləprɒpˌɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [mal-uh-prop-iz-uhm]
–noun 1. an act or habit of misusing words ridiculously, esp. by the confusion of words that are similar in sound.
2. an instance of this, as in “Lead the way and we'll precede.”

Understanding that word and avoiding the habit would go a long way to making certain posts much more readable. If being understood is a goal.

Best,
And With All Due Respect, Yada yada yada...
Ron

[Buck]

Ron, maybe the cause of your angst is your read on the word tenets as text. If you still have concern over usage and meaning I will be glad to discuss this in an affable manner via PM.

Let's move forward with positive contributions to the thread, and this forum, and such contributions that concern themselves with the topic as well. And we should keep our personal issues and such privately, and done thru PM. :)

Post thought, I also didn't capitlize bible. This may also have been over looked.

[Ron Tisdale]

Ron, maybe the cause of your angst
A) I don't have any "angst"...

is your read on the word tenets as text. If you still have concern over usage and meaning I will be glad to discuss this in an affable manner via PM.

B) I think I am being perfectly affable. And I'm not intested in saying anything beyond the affable things I have said here, thanks.

Let's move forward with positive contributions to the thread, and this forum,

C) I believe my contributions (both to the thread and the forum) are positive. I hear that you disagree, but I disagree with your assessment. Just like you had the right to make your comments on the overall topic, I have the right to make my assessment on your comments. If you don't feel my comments are positive, you do have the right to ignore them (it seems that you are ignoring them in any case, which is fine).

...and such contributions that concern themselves with the topic as well. And we should keep our personal issues and such privately, and done thru PM. :)

Post thought, I also didn't capitlize bible. This may also have been over looked.

D) I have no personal issues, and I believe this discussion is part and parcel of the topic.

Best Wishes for the New Year,
Ron

[Keith Larman]

Hey, Buck, maybe he was from Planet Unicorn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6UWR0kSFcE)! Since we're just making stuff up now let's have a respectful discussion about that possibility too!

[Buck]

Hey, Buck, maybe he was from Planet Unicorn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6UWR0kSFcE)! Since we're just making stuff up now let's have a respectful discussion about that possibility too!

I am not here to tell you what to believe, or to think. The thread has come to an end. I was making post comments on the thread, and how I felt it would have been a better thread. I don't think it really needed to be anything more than a handful of posts on 1 page. If I were a person looking for accurate information to determine if O'Sensei was or wasn't a priest, it might be best to read the qualified responses. Maybe Jun will lift those posts from the thread and put them in a closed thread for the purpose of archiving it for future reference. As I said it is rare to have the input of more than one qualified individual on a topic. I'd be nice not to have to hunt through a numberous paged thread where qualified information is hard to get at it. I want to say those who are qualified on this topic who spoke don't speak often. Sometimes it is best just to let them speak, and listen to what they say. I don't find any fault in that.

[thisisnotreal]

from Planet Unicorn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6UWR0kSFcE)!

Keith, Your ability to fish out insane items from yuetube astonishes me. your kung fu is very strong . .. unreal. i don't know if i want to know *how* you know to find it. nuff said.

Ron, deftly handled. You sir are a gentleman.

Happy New Year everyone.

[Fred Little]

Ron, deftly handled. You sir are a gentleman.

Happy New Year everyone.

One can't help but echo both thoughts.

Best regards,

FL

[Toby Threadgill]

Now the question is did O'Sensei think of himself as a priest. If so or if not than what is the impact of that on Aikido and Aikidoka.

If he was a Kami does that dwarf the position or importance of being a priest?

What is the importance of the any of it? That is outside the importance of being on the record a fact he wasn't and not a reasonable misconception he was.

Mr Burgess,

The facts surrounding Ueshiba's life make it pretty obvious that he did not see himself as a priest.

In Shinto a human can can only become a kami after death. Alternately, you can only be a Shinto priest while you are alive. Consequently, asking if one dwarfs the other demonstrates rather incongruous thinking as the two identities are separated by our mortal coil.

I have no idea what your third point/question was ????

Happy New Year to all :)

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

[Ron Tisdale]

:D Good point Toby! One which had not even occurred to me!

Best,
Happy New Year
Yada...
Ron :D

[Buck]

Mr Burgess,

The facts surrounding Ueshiba's life make it pretty obvious that he did not see himself as a priest.

In Shinto a human can can only become a kami after death. Alternately, you can only be a Shinto priest while you are alive. Consequently, asking if one dwarfs the other demonstrates rather incongruous thinking as the two identities are separated by our mortal coil.

I have no idea what your third point/question was ????

Happy New Year to all :)

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

I would like to comment on what you said, not to refute it. Not to agree. It is not my wish to debate the thoughts That arose from this thread of mine.

"Every rock, animal, spring, emotion, quality and even person has a kami associated with it. The spirits of the dead are kami." Kami no michi is so confusing. It gets so complicated when butted up against western thought.

He may not have seen himself as a priest but maybe others did and considered him such and treated him as such. That does effect the facts of his life. That is the real issue I was getting at. I am told may think that O'Sesnei considered himself a god. If this is true it complicates the issue.

If you say it enough and long enough people take it as fact. It is very clear to me that it isn't unreasonable for people unlike yourself that don't have the opportunity to access factual information, to make a flattering assumption he was a priest. I am sure he could have easily become one. Not that damaging of misinformation in the sea of misinformation surrounding Aikido and O'Sensei.

I understand the need to correct the record. But that is going to be an endless battle.

What is important here, O'Sensei was very much into Kami no michi. If he was a priest or not, his is considered kami. How important is that to this day and age for people in Aikido to think of him as a priest, there is worse misinformation out there than that. He was really into kami no michi that is pretty well know. That is what is important here. BTW, O'Sensei has done more to promote Kami no michi than anyone one person outside Japan through Aikido- that needs to be looked at closely.

Focusing on the essence, the meaning, the context is a solution to the sea of misinformation and misconception of O'Sensei that will never be corrected. Was he or wasn't a priest is not as important as the fact he is considered Kami. That he was really into Kami no michi. It is the essence sometimes that is the most important.

That is what I was getting. :)

[CitoMaramba]

When someone asks you if you're a god, you say, 'YES!' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kTi-EMXoMA)

Happy New Year, Everyone! :D

[Toby Threadgill]

If you say it enough and long enough people take it as fact. It is very clear to me that it isn't unreasonable for people unlike yourself that don't have the opportunity to access factual information, to make a flattering assumption he was a priest. I am sure he could have easily become one. Not that damaging of misinformation in the sea of misinformation surrounding Aikido and O'Sensei.


Mr Burgess,

I don't mean to be pedantic, but do people have trouble understanding you? First you write "Kami no Michi" instead of simply saying "Shinto". ( What logical reason can justify using the alternate pronunciation? ) Next, you tap out a paragraph that has so many double negatives strung together that I can't follow what the heck you're tying to say.

"It is very clear to me that it isn't unreasonable for people unlike yourself that don't have the opportunity..."

Are you kidding? You come here and critique other peoples participation in this thread, then you write the above in all seriousness? Unless you are a comic genius and this was all done in jest, I'd have to conclude you have a life scattered with tragic failures of communication.

I'm no wordsmith but If you feel the compulsion to comment on other peoples posts then you must present your thoughts and comments in a manner that is both grammatically concise and logical. That way people will have a clue what you're talking about.

Toby Thrreadgill / TSYR

[Buck]

Please see this post, it will help.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=249328#post249328 see posts #33 and #34

As an Aikidoka, I am not afforded opportunities to have contact or aquire finite and accurate details in the specialized areas of Aikido.

I say this because for one it is easy for the common or average "Joe" Aikidoka who is not well versed in the ways of kami no michi to think of O'Sensei as a priest. It is a reasonable assumption, though it may be incorrect.

I may have over done it here. Sometimes communication is best by example, to model things. This isn't always understood well by some. I realize I don't spoon-feed my thoughts out, and place a great onus on those who read them. I understand the difficulty for some as I don't spoon-feed, make assumptions, and short-hand my thoughts with the assumption the reader has a well versed background on the topic. I also try new conventions out and stuff that are not expected by many conventional readers in my written communication. I realize this is an issue for some, but more than others. I apologize if you have issue, and hope in the future, over time, you will come accustom to my style and be less irritated. Very much in the same way one gets accustom to language and accents. And I will admit in this situation I may have been using too much accent.

Thank you for pointing that out.

[Keith Larman]

I realize I don't spoon-feed my thoughts out, and place a great onus on those who read them. I understand the difficulty for some as I don't spoon-feed, make assumptions, and short-hand my thoughts with the assumption the reader has a well versed background on the topic.

Having a coherent sentence is a basic requirement for communication and is *not* spoon-feeding. There are generally *two* possibilities when no one understands or agrees with what you are saying. One is that what you've written is so complex that it is beyond the reach of the readers' intellects. The other, of course, is that what you write is simply nonsensical, incoherent of flat out wrong.

It is very clear to me that it isn't unreasonable for people unlike yourself that don't have the opportunity...

I had a teacher in high school who loved to diagram sentences. I think that sentence would have made her head explode.

[Buck]

The other, of course, is that what you write is simply nonsensical, incoherent of flat out wrong.

I had a teacher in high school who loved to diagram sentences. I think that sentence would have made her head explode.

I am sure she would not have survived if we where both in her class. LOL. :)

[Keith Larman]

I am sure she would not have survived if we where both in her class. LOL. :)

Oh, I did quite well, thank you.

Sigh.

[Toby Threadgill]

Mr Burgess,

I am stunned.... In the post you referenced you wrote:

"Shinto (the spelling) is really for us guijing types anyways."

WHAT...LOL? Guijing? This just get funnier! It's like a train wreck with words instead of rail cars. Where do you get this stuff? Do you just pull it out of thin air? Wrong is just WRONG! It's not debatable. Look, if you'd ever had any real experience with Japanese you'd know native speakers rarely (if ever) say in common spoken language "Kami no Michi, they say "Shinto" If you walked up to a Japanese on the street in Tokyo and asked for directions to the closest Kami no Michi Jinja, they'd look at you cross-eyed.

Some advice to live by. If you don't know what you're talking about JUST STOP TALKING. Don't invent absurd nonsense.

And, to echo Keith Larman, proper writing skills are not spoon feeding anyone. If you cannot compose your thoughts in a manner that allows them to be easily understood, it is you who are at fault. No amount of convoluted rationalization changes that fact. You are either successful at communicating your thoughts thru the proper application of writing skills or you are a failure. Trying to justify abhorrent writing skills by blaming the reader, or worse yet, claiming it to be "your accent" is laughable and should be embarrassing. You will never be taken seriously if you can't even go to the trouble to compose a decent sentence. Why should I consider one thought, idea or concept worthy of my time if the writer doesn't respect me enough to intelligently represent his thoughts thru competent use of the written word?

To be clear, so you do not misunderstand me, I will never become accustomed to bad writing. I will always be irritated by people who try to represent authoritative opinions poorly, because I prefer to ignore people who can't write. They are not worthy of my time or trouble because I have only so many heartbeats before I am released from my mortal coil.

I hope that is clear enough. So where is that "ignore" button?

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

[Rob Watson]

Some advice to live by. If you don't know what you're talking about JUST STOP TALKING.

Or, as my grandpa used to say "either your foot in your mouth or his foot in your @$$". Either way one must have some kind of foot fetish to carry on so.

[Michael Hackett]

I was once taught that the purpose of writing is to INFORM and not IMPRESS the reader.

[Ron Tisdale]

Sigh...good luck Toby. Been there, done that, it doesn't seem to sink in.

Best,
Ron

[Mark Peckett]

Sigh...good luck Toby. Been there, done that, it doesn't seem to sink in.

Best,
Ron

Ditto.

Regards,
Mark