Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

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[ChrisMoses]

Happy Holidays. Jeremy and I shot a quick video the other night and it's up on Youtube.

Have a look here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSCLOz4zB8U) if you so desire.

Please keep these things in mind as you watch the video:

Think of it as a training blog, not an instructional how-to video.

While Jeremy offered some resistance for the "Aikido" versions of the two techniques, please believe me that he offered MUCH more resistance for the Aunkai/frame versions that I then demo. You'll just have to take my word for it, or watch the effect on him through his ukemi.

Realize that I'm showing two different things here, the first sayundo/kokyunage throw is what I would call a training tool, particularly at the speed I'm doing it. It's kind of artificial and more of a partner drill of a solo exercise. Sped up and with a few other changes, it starts to become something more applicable. This should also be clear during the third attempt where I'm talking too much ;) and lose some connections so the technique goes no where. I actually kind of like that I blow that one because it shows the kind of resistance I'm working with and that Jeremy is not looking for where to fall down. In the second demo (iriminage) I would consider what I'm doing more of an applied waza. It's short, fast and not very pretty. With that one, I'm working more with how much decisive juice I can generate through the frame. Again watch how much control Jeremy has in his ukemi with the slower Aikido versions vs. the Aunkai/frame versions.

And finally, for clarity, these should not be looked at as examples of how Ark or Rob would do either of these waza, I was not shown either of them but they are an outgrowth of my ongoing training and experimentation. In other words: if you think it sucks, don't hang that on Rob or Ark, but if you think it's kinda cool, please realize that it's in large part the Aunkai paradigm that brought me there.

:)

Enjoy.

[dps]

That is interesting Chris,

The extending of the back arm ( you called it the cross? ) during the movements is the way I was taught Aikido movements in the early 80's. My sensei then, had trained with Tohei Sensei before his split from the Aikikai.

David

[Aikibu]

Thanks Chris Good Stuff...:)

I did notice one (what we would consider anyway :) ) flaw/difference in your basic demo however...All of our movements are executed palm up as though you have a Katana...I hesitate to explain how important this small distinction is( The last time I tried to explain it some of the IMA "experts" here had a field day attacking my posts LOL)... But your own experience in Koryu Tai-Jitsu should illustrate the serious structural flaws in your "framework/structure" with the wrist down... I have not seen too much of Aunkai's Stuff or felt it but I am guessing that he/they might notice it too.

I do understand that our Aikido is not mainstream but the wrist down approach is something that Shoji Nishio felt was a fundamental training flaw in Aikido that made it unrealistic to practice and use against other Martial Arts.

I look forward to more of your Demo Vids and Happy Holidays. :)

William Hazen

[chillzATL]

very nice. It's very interesting to see how similar the two versions are at their core. I noticed you mention both the aikido versions in terms of "being softer", but to me, they just look like the more pronounced versions we would do early on, until we got a better grasp on how to keep our body alignment and posture correct and also be mindful of Tohei sensei's four principles while in motion. The higher ranks of our organization, and especially Suenaka sensei himself, look much more like the second versions you did, in terms of power and economy of movement, than the first.

Not knowing what your interests are from applying the Aunkai principles into technique, but it would seem that if they were on applying those things back into Aikido it wouldn't be a huge stretch to do so once you had those principles more locked into your body. would you agree or disagree?

thanks again for the post!

[Erick Mead]

"Leverage" at the connection as you describe it is an incorrect way to do gain kuzushi in morotedori saya undo as I was taught it. So if bad aikido is compared with "good" anything else it necessarily suffers in comparison. We do it with extension (down, out, in ( tricksy that one :D ), sideways, up or whatever) and resultant buckling -- not leverage.

Very interesting, otherwise.

Thanks.

[ChrisMoses]

@ all: the "aikido" versions are posted for context and should not be considered ultimate versions of the techniques but as BASIC versions to present a context for the conversation. Don't put too much into them, I don't know how many basic versions of those two techniques I've seen and done over the years, but to do them all would have been a waste of a memory card. ;)

Also, a big part of the problem with video is the old, "it has to be felt". So much of why what I'm doing in the vid has nothing to do with the specifics of the technique and all about how my body is coordinated. As an old training partner from Aikido (yodan with almost 20 years of Aikido) who recently started training with us when he felt these versions put it, "Holy Sh!t!!!" :freaky:

@ William: I'm familiar with the Nishio paradigm and it's good. First I think you'd agree that to have done the Nishio style of these techniques would not have offered as generic a starting point as I'd intended since they are fairly unique. Second, I think what Nishio was getting at was a fairly straight forward way to get people to move in a fairly structured way. By keeping the movements of the arms and hand in accord with how an edge would be moved through space, it's pretty easy to get someone to move with more support and power. It's an excellent tool, I use it when teaching Aikido classes (particularly with kaiten nage where the effects can be quite pronounced). I would say however that it's only ONE way to structure the body to generate power. :cool:

@ David: Rob has written quite a bit about 'the cross' online, I'd find and re-read his "Messing with TMA" for a better discussion that I'd be able to offer here.

@ Erick: Yay for you, you've already established that you're a martial genious and we all eagerly await your videos and subsequent seminar series. :drool:

[Jeremy Hulley]

David,
I did some Tohei/Nishio influenced Aikido in my early days and was taught about the importance of the back arm. What I was never taught in any aikido that I have done was to connect the arms through the the upper cross and keep them connected.
Best
Jeremy

[dps]

David,
I did some Tohei/Nishio influenced Aikido in my early days and was taught about the importance of the back arm. What I was never taught in any aikido that I have done was to connect the arms through the the upper cross and keep them connected.
Best
Jeremy

Yes, no explanation why but I remember experimenting with it and noticing the difference in the technique's effectiveness with and without the back arm. My sensei taught us to always use both arms, keep hands near your center line and move the your center (one point).

David

[ChrisMoses]

Thanks for the discussion guys. :)

One thing that's not very apparent in the vids is that the back arm isn't just extended and supporting, but it's actually what's driving the movement. On the one where I pooched it, I let the arm connected to Jeremy do the work, and it fell apart.

[thisisnotreal]

One thing that's not very apparent in the vids is that the back arm isn't just extended and supporting, but it's actually what's driving the movement.

Thanks for posting the vid!

What you wrote above...something i haven't got to the bottom of.

Did you happen to see this . He links to this article by Jarek S. HERE (http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/otherstyles/CNZbook.html)

In it are some things that are... sparking some thoughts. maybe it's interesting to you too.

I'll cut and paste for the lazy..


On Joining and Supporting of Yin and Yang

Refining the Shape is not beyond Yin and Yang. How will one practice if Yin and Yang are not clear? The Du Channel in Taoist classics goes along the middle of the back and commands all Yang Channels. Ren Channel goes along the front of the body (Fu, literally: belly) and commands all Yin Channels. That is why back is considered Yang and front of the body is considered Yin. Both channels meet at Hui Yin at the bottom, and at the gums at the top. South and north, they are opposite like midnight and noon. Or like Kan trigram which resides at the center of north, and Li trigram that resides at the center of south, not easy to define.

Bending forward posture is a Yin posture, but it joins Yang Qi and is beneficial to Du Channel. It leads Qi of all Yang channels, and returns completely to the front of the top.

Bending backward posture is a Yang posture, but it joins Yin Qi and is beneficial to Ren Channel. It leads Qi of all Yin channels, and returns completely to the back of the top.
On Moving Qi
The point of contact (Luo Dian) is hard and solid. Fierce and brave, irresistible. (It) relies on Qi of the whole body, but yet (Qi must) concentrate in one place. Nevertheless, it can be used without loss of Qi. It is harmful if Qi is lost or pulled. It means that one does not know the method of Moving Qi (Guo Qi). All Qi of the body has its beginning in the Gate of Life, which is the source of Qi. Qi is manifested in four ends, which fill with Qi. (Qi) flows along (its) paths. Generally (speaking) Qi must not be sluggish nor pulled and only then can flow beneficially (for health), be nimble and unfathomable.

Hence upper Qi is in the bottom, so the bottom (must) not be pulled (e.g. stopped) if (one) wants to move downwards.

Lower Qi is on the top, so the top must not be sluggished if (one) wants to move upwards.

Front Qi is in the back, so the front will naturally enter if (one) smoothens the back.

Back Qi is in the front, so the back will naturally go away if (one) regulates the front.

Left Qi is in the right, so pay attention to the right.

Right Qi is in the left, so pay attention to the left.

For instance, in straight strike with palm, Qi should flow forward. If the other hand is not pulled back by the elbow, (then) Qi is not allowed to flow forward from the back. In upward strike, if the other hand does not insert (e.g. move downward) and shoulder does not drop, (then) Qi is not allowed to flow upward from ribs.

In separating techniques, if the chest does not open, then Qi is not allowed to flow backward. In embracing techniques, if the chest does not open (should be: close), then Qi is not allowed to wrap the front. While rising (Qi), (one) must hook the foot. While falling (Luo) (one) must draw back the crown of the head. Qi of left hand is in the right leg, Qi of right hand is in the left leg. In bending forward posture, tumbling posture and forward exploring posture, lift the heel of the rear foot. In dropping, sink arms. In lifting posture, turn over the feet. In tumbling, do not lift up feet (because you) may hit the ground with (your) head. In kicking do not straighten the leg, (but) consider drawing it back. Expand and strengthen it. All postures are like that.

To summarize it - during contact Qi moves to one place. (However) Qi does not come from one place. Its paths will be smooth only if (you) dredge its source and clear its course. (Your will) suffer from being sluggish (stagnant) or pulled Qi (and you will) not progress unless (you) advance gradually and dig in at every step,


interesting. any other references Thomas? That sounds intriguing. Would like to hear more of the...'rules of functioning'

And this part..which the author feels is.. related.. (/?)


On coupling Hardness with Softness
Each posture, within three points, has always one point of contact. Qi, within three extremes, has always one when it is used. This is called (when) revolving, Yin turns into Yin with Yang in-between, and Yang turns into Yang with Yin in-between.

Place of contact is the place where Qi gathers and blood condensates, (to where they) move. Appropriate use of hard method (means) combining Yin and Yang (and) this benefits Qi circulation. Appropriate use of soft method does not go beyond this (either). If using only hard method Qi is seized all over the body, stagnant and not nimble. The point of contact is certainly neither fierce nor brave. If using only soft method, Qi is dispersed and not gathered and there is no place it goes to. Point of contact is not hard nor solid. (When one) should use hardness but (there is still some) softness (at the same time), then Qi does not (completely) concentrate; (When one) should use softness but (there is still some) hardness (at the same time), then Qi does not (completely) disperse.

(This person) has not received the secret of coupling (hardness with softness). Hence (that who is) good at using hardness and softness is like a dragonfly skimming the surface of the water; just touches it lightly and immediately flies upwards. Move Qi like a windmill, rotate and roll (it) without stopping. In this way hardness and softness are used properly. Only then one will not suffer from deficient and not firm, unsmooth, not nimble Qi.
anyone? bueller?

Cheers.

[Howard Popkin]

@ Erick: Yay for you, you've already established that you're a martial genious and we all eagerly await your videos and subsequent seminar series. :drool:

Seriously Chris, That might be been some of the funniest stuff I have read, ever.

I owe you a dollar for that. In our dojo, that is the price for a high quality techique or a makimono in sarcasm ryu.

Happy Holidays to all my friends out there on the west coast !

Take care,

Howard

[Erick Mead]

Erick: Yay for you, you've already established that you're a martial geniousSeriously Chris, That might be been some of the funniest stuff I have read, ever.

I owe you a dollar for that. In our dojo, that is the price for a high quality techique or a makimono in sarcasm ryu. Well, there are better wits than me, surely ..

"Think twice before you speak, and then you may be able to say something more insulting than if you spoke right out at once."

Evan Esar

"He who wishes to exert a useful influence must be careful to insult nothing. Let him not be troubled by what seems absurd, but concentrate his energies to the creation of what is good. He must not demolish, but build."

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Popularity is the one insult I have never suffered."

Oscar Wilde

Merry Christmas -- all the same!

[asiawide]

Nice video. The problem is that aikido looks clumsy at first sight when you apply new ideas into aikido. One of my teachers said, 'make it smaller and smaller unitl your partner can't notice it'
If you initiate shintaijuku(right?) when uke grabs your wrist and if it's very small and hard to notice, that's real atemi IMHO. I'm working toward it but still quite hopeless. he he. Personally I'd like to keep Akuzawa secret though he's very much open. But the attitude of 'we also do it' or 'it's also in aikido' make him secret. he he. :)

[phitruong]

But your own experience in Koryu Tai-Jitsu should illustrate the serious structural flaws in your "framework/structure" with the wrist down... I have not seen too much of Aunkai's Stuff or felt it but I am guessing that he/they might notice it too.

I do understand that our Aikido is not mainstream but the wrist down approach is something that Shoji Nishio felt was a fundamental training flaw in Aikido that made it unrealistic to practice and use against other Martial Arts.

William Hazen

i don't necessary think the wrist down a flaw. i have seen karate raising block using the wrist and the same thing with various Chinese arts. it couldn't be bad, could it? isn't wrist down to send energy up and palm up to send energy down? but then, does it matter whether wrist is down or up? just thinking out loud.

*got to stop thinking altogether. talking about dangerous habit!*

[Aikibu]

i don't necessary think the wrist down a flaw. i have seen karate raising block using the wrist and the same thing with various Chinese arts. it couldn't be bad, could it? isn't wrist down to send energy up and palm up to send energy down? but then, does it matter whether wrist is down or up? just thinking out loud.

*got to stop thinking altogether. talking about dangerous habit!*

It's not a flaw of Aikido Just our Aikido...:)

William Hazen

[John Connolly]

I like how you both sorta look like you just woke up and are waiting for the coffee to finish brewing. :p

It's amazing how much power can be generated by shintaijuku for all kinds of waza...

[Upyu]

I do understand that our Aikido is not mainstream but the wrist down approach is something that Shoji Nishio felt was a fundamental training flaw in Aikido

Thought I'd fill in a couple of things here.
First off, in my book it doesn't really matter whether your palm is up or down when you're actually doing a technique. Different situations call for different shapes etc. Rinkiouhen (or adapt on the fly) as Ark would say.
That being said the reason that the wrist, palm etc are turned down is because during training, you're initially trying to push the upper cross (read stretch across the sternum area) down, and keep it pushed down, pressurizing the tanden.

This eventually teaches the first vertical rotation that occurs within the body, (and more importantly in the tanden) where the front drops, gets pulled down, while pressure rises up the backside. (This is a physical skill, not something that you're supposed to fantasize about)

For "#$#"s and giggles, lets take a simplistic model.
Assuming the arms are connected through the upper cross, let's simplify the issue and look at the arms like they're a rubber hose. This means it has an elastic nature, and if pulled in various directions, will desire to come back to it's original shape.
If you rotate the hose sagitally, so that it turns down the front and up the back (while holding the ends in place) use start to get a very basic form of torque to develop. The direction of the torque also happens to...do something to the arms, but I think I'll let some figure it out for themselves. But it's that local torque (and I want to be clear that the torque I'm describing above is more "local" than whole body) that joins itself naturally to executing the kind of techs that Chris put up.

The same kind of principle is taken to a deeper level, and starts to involve the tanden etc, becoming more whole body as you progress.

That being said, my main point being there's a logic and rhyme to a lot of the "shapes" used, and most of it I think has little do with whether you're holding a weapon or not etc. (That's not meant as a slant towards you William, I'm just trying to illustrate a point).

[Michael Varin]

Christian,

I do thank you for posting the video. Openness is the only way we will advance our art.

But I hope you don't actually think you were working against resitance. Your uke was totally compliant and I can't say that there was any dynamic quality to what you demonstrated.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I think it's time we start looking at where we are going with our training.

[Upyu]

Christian,

I do thank you for posting the video. Openness is the only way we will advance our art.

But I hope you don't actually think you were working against resitance. Your uke was totally compliant and I can't say that there was any dynamic quality to what you demonstrated.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I think it's time we start looking at where we are going with our training.

Not that Chris needs defending, but I think it's safe to say that the video was done as such to illustrate the mechanics at work.

If you want someone moving at a faster speed and with more "dynamics" using those mechanics do a search for Aunkai & Akuzawa

[MM]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the vid! Looks good. Would love to get together and compare notes when I make it out there.

Mark

[Rennis Buchner]

While this probably has little to do with anything but since the thought struck me why not write it down. One thing that struck me was that your footwork and general movement of the core of the body using the shintaijiku adapted movement was very nearly identical to how the late Kawabe Shigeru sensei used to teach that same technique. Although the arm movements are obviously different, he did also clearly teach a clear balanced movement between both arms. With that said, Akuzawa did throw me around much more easily than Kawabe sensei ever did so... (shrugs). Anyways, if nothing else it just shows that at least in some cases, adapting such movement into an aikido context shouldn't be such an issue as some of the general form is still floating around, if somewhat under-used in its potential.

[Howard Popkin]

Erick,

Meant no offense, I just thought it was funny. I'm an elementary school teacher and it sounds like the stuff I hear everyday.

Especially the "Yay for you" part.

Happy Holidays to you as well.

As for the dollar Chris, its still coming your way, that was funny :)

Happy New Year everyone !

Howard

[Jeremy Hulley]

Can we define compliant?

Was I attacking with the purpose of demonstrating what was shown?

Yep.

Was it a dynamic, martial encounter......nope....

Come on down sometime and I'll give you the same amount of resistance and ff you throw me I'll buy you a beer and we can have a great laugh about it.

The video was for showing some of that stuff.

Best

Jeremy

..

[Howard Popkin]

Jeremy,
Okay, this is getting expensive. I owe you a dollar also because that was equally as funny :)

Happy Holidays

[MM]

Happy Holidays. Jeremy and I shot a quick video the other night and it's up on Youtube.

Have a look here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSCLOz4zB8U) if you so desire.

Please keep these things in mind as you watch the video:

Think of it as a training blog, not an instructional how-to video.

While Jeremy offered some resistance for the "Aikido" versions of the two techniques, please believe me that he offered MUCH more resistance for the Aunkai/frame versions that I then demo. You'll just have to take my word for it, or watch the effect on him through his ukemi.

Realize that I'm showing two different things here, the first sayundo/kokyunage throw is what I would call a training tool, particularly at the speed I'm doing it. It's kind of artificial and more of a partner drill of a solo exercise. Sped up and with a few other changes, it starts to become something more applicable. This should also be clear during the third attempt where I'm talking too much ;) and lose some connections so the technique goes no where. I actually kind of like that I blow that one because it shows the kind of resistance I'm working with and that Jeremy is not looking for where to fall down.


Do you mind going over what you're working on in this part? At a guess, I'd say keeping the spine centered in your body while you move. Keeping slack out of the arms and the arms connected with the upper cross. Do you have contradictory forces going out both arms? Are you working on up/down of the spine, too? Are you using the arm "twisting/turning" to start a sort of torque in the arms?

One of the hard parts is to tell just how much "resistance" Jeremy is giving. Don't take that the wrong way, just saying it's hard to tell from video. IHTBF. :)

Easier stuff to talk and show in person, I know.

Thanks,
Mark

[DH]

Hi Chris
I'd suggest less hip turning and more turning from the waist with the feet remaining stable. Power will then transfer in a different path. Rotating on the heels is not something I would ever be doing in any type of training- for any reason.

Long weapons
Since long weapons were brought up, it might be worth mentioning that turning from the waist and drawing "through" the hips (with hips more or less remaining with a forward orientation and mobility is a necessity in Japanese long weapons.
The large hip turning you are doing in your Shintai jiku is also seen in various Iai, Aikido and other modern derivations of body arts. Hip turning and locking the knees to the movement of the hips (and for many the shoulders with the hips as well) has become part and parcel of many arts as they get more and more Kendo-ized, judo- ized and Iai influenced over the years. It just won't cut it with long weapons.

Hand positioning
The hand positioning becomes indicative of certain body attributes and "palms up" as a constant-I would offer is an invention of Nishioka and is not something I would recognize as being needed for sword or any other weapon. In fact hand positioning and where it occurs in relation to the body change is key there. So I would say just the opposite is true from the "palms up" example. Overall, modern weapons traditions and their re-creation of certain body mechanics are in many ways antithetical to the older Koryu-more particularly the Sogo bujutsu. FWIW, this is not my opinion. There are specific discussions to be had regarding body skills and power generation and the use of long weapons with people experienced with Japanese weapons. Large hip turning is simply not a part of that discussion for several reasons.
It’s tough not to get into a right and wrong discussion, when some things are so blatanlty obvious. When swinging a naginata; if you power it from, and turn from, the hips - you then need to re-adjust for your next forward move. That means you're open to a counter strike. Without getting into details, using the waist is both practical and teaches a way to develop a duality of power generation-out and negating power coming-in that leaves you neutral in the process. All while offering both the ability to make change in all directions and to keep moving in all directions present at all times. Something which-I think for those who train heavy weapons at full speed- will appreciate right well!
How does all of this morph into body skills for modern methods; everywhere.
Happy Holiday
Dan

[gregstec]

Hi Chris
I'd suggest less hip turning and more turning from the waist with the feet remaining stable. Power will then transfer in a different path. Rotating on the heels is not something I would ever be doing in any type of training- for any reason.

Long weapons
Since long weapons were brought up, it might be worth mentioning that turning from the waist and drawing "through" the hips (with hips more or less remaining with a forward orientation and mobility is a necessity in Japanese long weapons.
The large hip turning you are doing in your Shintai jiku is also seen in various Iai, Aikido and other modern derivations of body arts. Hip turning and locking the knees to the movement of the hips (and for many the shoulders with the hips as well) has become part and parcel of many arts as they get more and more Kendo-ized, judo- ized and Iai influenced over the years. It just won't cut it with long weapons.

Hand positioning
The hand positioning becomes indicative of certain body attributes and "palms up" as a constant-I would offer is an invention of Nishioka and is not something I would recognize as being needed for sword or any other weapon. In fact hand positioning and where it occurs in relation to the body change is key there. So I would say just the opposite is true from the "palms up" example. Overall, modern weapons traditions and their re-creation of certain body mechanics are in many ways antithetical to the older Koryu-more particularly the Sogo bujutsu. FWIW, this is not my opinion. There are specific discussions to be had regarding body skills and power generation and the use of long weapons with people experienced with Japanese weapons. Large hip turning is simply not a part of that discussion for several reasons.
It's tough not to get into a right and wrong discussion, when some things are so blatanlty obvious. When swinging a naginata; if you power it from, and turn from, the hips - you then need to re-adjust for your next forward move. That means you're open to a counter strike. Without getting into details, using the waist is both practical and teaches a way to develop a duality of power generation-out and negating power coming-in that leaves you neutral in the process. All while offering both the ability to make change in all directions and to keep moving in all directions present at all times. Something which-I think for those who train heavy weapons at full speed- will appreciate right well!
How does all of this morph into body skills for modern methods; everywhere.
Happy Holiday
Dan

Hey Dan, all that stuff sounds like 'how to' to me - I thought you did not do how to stuff :D

we all need to get a life! it's xmas for Christ's sake (pun?) time for some holiday cheer:)

Greg

[Aikibu]

Hi Chris
I'd suggest less hip turning and more turning from the waist with the feet remaining stable. Power will then transfer in a different path. Rotating on the heels is not something I would ever be doing in any type of training- for any reason.

Long weapons
Since long weapons were brought up, it might be worth mentioning that turning from the waist and drawing "through" the hips (with hips more or less remaining with a forward orientation and mobility is a necessity in Japanese long weapons.
The large hip turning you are doing in your Shintai jiku is also seen in various Iai, Aikido and other modern derivations of body arts. Hip turning and locking the knees to the movement of the hips (and for many the shoulders with the hips as well) has become part and parcel of many arts as they get more and more Kendo-ized, judo- ized and Iai influenced over the years. It just won't cut it with long weapons.

Hand positioning
The hand positioning becomes indicative of certain body attributes and "palms up" as a constant-I would offer is an invention of Nishioka and is not something I would recognize as being needed for sword or any other weapon. In fact hand positioning and where it occurs in relation to the body change is key there. So I would say just the opposite is true from the "palms up" example. Overall, modern weapons traditions and their re-creation of certain body mechanics are in many ways antithetical to the older Koryu-more particularly the Sogo bujutsu. FWIW, this is not my opinion. There are specific discussions to be had regarding body skills and power generation and the use of long weapons with people experienced with Japanese weapons. Large hip turning is simply not a part of that discussion for several reasons.
It’s tough not to get into a right and wrong discussion, when some things are so blatanlty obvious. When swinging a naginata; if you power it from, and turn from, the hips - you then need to re-adjust for your next forward move. That means you're open to a counter strike. Without getting into details, using the waist is both practical and teaches a way to develop a duality of power generation-out and negating power coming-in that leaves you neutral in the process. All while offering both the ability to make change in all directions and to keep moving in all directions present at all times. Something which-I think for those who train heavy weapons at full speed- will appreciate right well!
How does all of this morph into body skills for modern methods; everywhere.
Happy Holiday
Dan

Interesting Points Dan Thanks :)...FYI Nishio did not "invent" "palm up" and it's not so much palm up as "holding sword in hand" Tai Jitsu...I should have clarified this better but I was referring to Chris's Specific Movements in the You Tube and our training paradigm...The Arm is an extension of the Sword/Jo and not the other way around from the point of view of "structure" :) Hopefully that helps clarify things a bit.

Happy Holidays and Hopefully I'll get a chance one of these days to put flesh and bones towards understanding your excellent expression of Aiki. :)

William Hazen

[phitruong]

Hi Chris
I'd suggest less hip turning and more turning from the waist with the feet remaining stable. Power will then transfer in a different path. Rotating on the heels is not something I would ever be doing in any type of training- for any reason.

Long weapons
Since long weapons were brought up, it might be worth mentioning that turning from the waist and drawing "through" the hips (with hips more or less remaining with a forward orientation and mobility is a necessity in Japanese long weapons.
The large hip turning you are doing in your Shintai jiku is also seen in various Iai, Aikido and other modern derivations of body arts. Hip turning and locking the knees to the movement of the hips (and for many the shoulders with the hips as well) has become part and parcel of many arts as they get more and more Kendo-ized, judo- ized and Iai influenced over the years. It just won't cut it with long weapons.

Dan

more waist and less hips for long weapons? don't have much experience with long japanese weapon other than the bo. for some reason the longer the weapon, the more hips i used. i would consider the chinese kwan dao a bloody long and heavy weapon, for example, this dude here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t2DahSZyVg
but then again, the kwan dao, i believed, was meant for heavy cavalry troop. i don't ride horse, so do folks use more hips or less hips on horse back? if you only use your waist alone, how do you bring the power of your legs to your arms? i guess i am a bit confused on the power source for the long weapon. i guess i have to run to home depot and get meself a long heavy water pipe to test out the approaches. or could it be i misunderstood your description? very likely as well since i am not experienced in these matters.

[thisisnotreal]

i really liked THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t2DahSZyVg#t=2m38s)part of the clip you posted Phi.

[Michael Douglas]

i really liked THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t2DahSZyVg#t=2m38s)part of the clip you posted Phi.
Funny how the comments are all on about how heavy they are and how his isn't a lightweight floppy one ... but it IS a floppy one, you can see it flex about halfway through the video. Awful. Maybe he canoes.

Back to the OP : Thanks for posting your training thing. Can you do it with the (Jeremy) guy in black not falling down? He could just take a step back instead then you can get more sessions in before he gets tired.

[John Connolly]

Hey Michael,

I'm not Chris (duh, right?), but I know his training paradigm. Having uke step back would defeat the point of training w/ 2 people. It would essentially be solo training, which we already do mountains of. The purpose of the 2 person training is to feel where/how ones structure is effected and causes effects in both Uke and Tori. This allows for tweaks to be made in the intent/feel/visualization of solo practice as well as in 2 person waza.

p.s. to Dan, thanks for the thoughtful post.

[Carsten Möllering]

Hi!

First:
I hope you have had some fine christmas days and enjoied it. And those of you who had to work on those days could nevertheless grasp a little bit of christmas.

Second:
I don't want to argue or quarrel! I just come again and again to the same point each time I read about IT oder Aunkai specific practice. or whateve it is called the right way.
Please notice that there is no such thing where I live an practice.

So I get my onlyimpressions and informations about thist way of practice from what you right and show here.

Well, that said ...

the "aikido" versions are posted for context and should not be considered ultimate versions of the techniques but as BASIC versions ....
It's not about being basic versions or about being one version among countless others. But you show both basic version of technique on a verry, verry beginners level. (footwork, positioning, where you have your arms ...)
So this execution of this form of this basic techniques in my eyes can't be used to compare it to whatever you want to compare it.

Then showing "your" technique you work a lot more in an advanced way. You move a lot more like it would be expected of someone who is doing Aikido on a more advanced level.
(Again footwork. using knees and shoulders, moving from the centers of the body and not with the arms ...)

Please excuse me! I don't know the graduation you hold in Aikido and I don't know the shihan you learned from.
I apologize very much.

Do you do this deliberately?

Also, a big part of the problem with video is the old, "it has to be felt".Well yes: But I only have the video ...

So much of why what I'm doing in the vid has nothing to do with the specifics of the technique and all about how my body is coordinated.So: What can be shown this way? How can I get what you like me to get, if it can't be communicated by a video?

And well, if you move showing "Aikido" structured like a beginner and you move showing "your technique" like a more experienced or advanced practioner (in our nomenclatur) i nevertheless have to believe that these differences are not of importance?

So if it's not about technique and not about youf body structure what can I see in your video?

Technical question:
Can you get the same use out of your back arm when relaxing it or do you have to strech it out?

As an old training partner from Aikido (yodan with almost 20 years of Aikido) who recently started training with us when he felt these versions put it, "Holy Sh!t!!!"
Well, that's the same what we here some times. But we are just also doing aikido.
Are there teachers doing "Yamaguchi Aikido" (don't like that term) in the US?

Again: I don't see anything which I haven't seen in an aikido-dojo. But you are wright: I only can see it. I don't feel it.

Greetings,
Carsten

[Upyu]

if you only use your waist alone, how do you bring the power of your legs to your arms? i guess i am a bit confused on the power source for the long weapon. i guess i have to run to home depot and get meself a long heavy water pipe to test out the approaches. or could it be i misunderstood your description? very likely as well since i am not experienced in these matters.

Er Phi, I think you can figure this one out, seeing as you're working on this stuff yourself. If you twist the hips you break the connection. And obviously it's not the "waist" alone that powers it. So the real question is "what" do you use to turn without breaking the connection you have through your crotch to the legs to the horse...

[oisin bourke]

Hi!

(Again footwork. using knees and shoulders, moving from the centers of the body and not with the arms ...)

Technical question:
Can you get the same use out of your back arm when relaxing it or do you have to strech it out?

Are there teachers doing "Yamaguchi Aikido" (don't like that term) in the US?

Greetings,
Carsten

Here's a clip of William Gleason teaching recently.

He was a long time Deshi of Yamaguchi, I believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOs_Gnigupo

Also, I saw this on TV the other night and I figured it's what Akuzawa gets up to on weekends.:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8DNg3kgTDU

[JW]

Hi Chris, thanks for posting the vid. I think it is really important for the future of aikido for people to be doing this kind of "body research" and to be showing others.
I like it as a demonstration of "non-internally powered aikido" vs "internally powered aikido using the aunkai method." One thing that troubles me though is that we as readers/community have to recognize that this is what the video is for, rather than being a general non-internal vs internal aikido.

Put another way: if Morihei Ueshiba posted a vid to illustrate his "what you people are doing is not aikido!!" comment, what would it look like? He could show what not to do (might look like the aikido versions in Chris' video). Then, when he shows what TO do, it would not look like Chris' aunkai method aikido, yet it would be another form of internally-powered aikido, I think we can all agree. In other words, the shapes/forms that he left us are in line with his method of internal strength-- that's why he could execute the waza that way.

So, we could do research and make vids of putting all kinds of internal strength methods into aikido throws. They would all be rewarding. But if we trained in whatever secret/not-so-secret ways that O-sensei trained, we should also be able to make a vid of non-internal aikido vs O-sensei's internally-powered aikido.


Technical question:
Can you get the same use out of your back arm when relaxing it or do you have to strech it out?

I like this question. It is what I am talking about. O-sensei was FOR SURE getting fascial torque across the cross, but his forms look the way they do. So I think in general, maybe there are lots of ways to do certain things, so that O-sensei and Akuzawa were in some ways doing the same things (like torque across the cross), but using different methods of getting those things (one using arm extended and one not so much).

Don't know really, just thinking out loud.
--JW

[ChrisMoses]

Sorry for the delayed responses, more to follow. My rad wife got me a PS3 for XMas and when not playing Bakugan with XuanXuan, I've been deep in the study of MotoGP 08 and Assassins Creed II (awesome). :)

Do you mind going over what you're working on in this part? At a guess, I'd say keeping the spine centered in your body while you move. Keeping slack out of the arms and the arms connected with the upper cross. Do you have contradictory forces going out both arms? Are you working on up/down of the spine, too? Are you using the arm "twisting/turning" to start a sort of torque in the arms?

All of that and none of it really. I've done enough twisted mabu and shintaijuku and I'm actually trying to maintain the sensation of those exercises but with a partner, particularly on the first one. The arms have contradictory forces, but I'm trying to not give into the temptation to generate those forces with the muscles of the shoulders and arms. I'm really working on keeping the shoulders soft all the time. As for the twisting of the arms, it's like the arms rotate because of the pull of the waist and the waist moved because of the pull of the arms it's one unit. Spine is always up down, shoulders are always out/in (sideways), six directions yadda yadda yadda... Again, the first one is very much an exploration of a solo exercise with a partner. Nothing more. Particularly with the first one, I'm not even saying that the "Aunkai" version is better, the BASIC RUDIMENTARY kokyu done at the beginning is there to put eveyone on the same page, defining terms so to speak.

One of the hard parts is to tell just how much "resistance" Jeremy is giving. Don't take that the wrong way, just saying it's hard to tell from video. IHTBF. :)

Yeah, I'm reminded of some of the early videos of Ark and Rob doing standing aiki-age and thinking I could see what was going on in the video. Then I met them, and realized just how much resistance Rob is capable of generating while looking like he's just standing there, then I felt Ark and realized just how much power he can generate and well, that changed things now didn't it... ;)

I will say that in the BASIC versions, Jeremy isn't offering much resistance. That's because there's no way I could throw him with those versions if he was going to resist me. He does offer quite a bit of solid foundational resistance in the second versions however. On most people at the dojo the technique actually looks more like twisted mabu/shintaijuku but I wasn't very on that night and couldn't complete the circle. Doesn't bother me one bit if you think he's tanking. Although if you know what to look for (particularly in the second frame based version of the first waza it's pretty clear he's not tanking).

[ChrisMoses]

Hi Chris
I'd suggest less hip turning and more turning from the waist with the feet remaining stable. Power will then transfer in a different path. Rotating on the heels is not something I would ever be doing in any type of training- for any reason.



Dan, interesting post. I'm assuming you're talking about the first one? If so, three comments. First: again I'm trying to actually do the solo exercise with resistance. I need to work at it more, as I mentioned to Mark, with most folks I can basically just do twisted mabu, but Jeremy is really solid. Second, the more applied version of what I demonstrated there (the one that Neil likes a lot better) is much more in line with what you recommend. The waist drives the cross in a pure horizontal plane until uke is compressed then we add a weight drop to effect the throw. Third: the heel rotation is from our Yanagi Ryu influence, so take it up with Don. ;)

Thanks very much for the comments!

[ChrisMoses]

Back to the OP : Thanks for posting your training thing. Can you do it with the (Jeremy) guy in black not falling down? He could just take a step back instead then you can get more sessions in before he gets tired.

What John said, you really need solid resistance all the way through the movement to get the feedback you're looking for. Besides, as you can tell from our, er, physiques, we could probably use some more falling down and getting up in our lives... :D

[ChrisMoses]

Lots here, but I'll offer a few responses.



Second:
I don't want to argue or quarrel! I just come again and again to the same point each time I read about IT oder Aunkai specific practice. or whateve it is called the right way.
Please notice that there is no such thing where I live an practice.

No worries, all fair questions. Let's both realize that there's nothing I can say in a forum or do in a video to dismiss all doubt, so with that said...

It's not about being basic versions or about being one version among countless others. But you show both basic version of technique on a verry, verry beginners level. (footwork, positioning, where you have your arms ...)
So this execution of this form of this basic techniques in my eyes can't be used to compare it to whatever you want to compare it.

Then showing "your" technique you work a lot more in an advanced way. You move a lot more like it would be expected of someone who is doing Aikido on a more advanced level.
(Again footwork. using knees and shoulders, moving from the centers of the body and not with the arms ...)

Certainly one of the problems with videos in general and what I did in particular. Again the first part is basic to give context to the next part. I would say that what I'm doing in the second parts LOOKS like some Aikido, but FEELS and (most importantly) is accomplished differently. I don't know if there are enough words out there to go through all the reasons why, but that's my OPINION. :)

Please excuse me! I don't know the graduation you hold in Aikido and I don't know the shihan you learned from.
I apologize very much.

No need for apologies, you're rightly looking for context. I don't want to write a whole resume, but I received my shodan from direct students of Kurita Minouru Shihan (one of Osensei's Uchideshi, also influeced by Saito Sensei and Nishio Sensei). I then trained under Kimberly Richardson Sensei who trained under Mary Heiny Sensei with influences from Tom Reed, Saotome Sensei, Ikeda Sensei and others. She promoted me to nidan in 2002. For the last six years I've trained under Neil Yamamoto, the head of Icho Ryu aikibudo in a small group setting. Neil doesn't offer rank anymore so I haven't been promoted since I was at Two Cranes Aikido. You mention Yamaguchi, I assume you're referring to Seigo Yamaguchi sensei? I do have hands on time with Takeda Yoshinobu Sensei who was one of (the?) senior students of Yamaguchi sensei. I was never a student of his but I have been to a week long seminar, a few guest classes and visited his dojo in Yokohama. I've taken ukemi from him and some of his senior guys. I mention this just for some potential context.

Do you do this deliberately?

You mean do I hide my training background deliberately? No. Ask if you want more detail.

So: What can be shown this way? How can I get what you like me to get, if it can't be communicated by a video?

And well, if you move showing "Aikido" structured like a beginner and you move showing "your technique" like a more experienced or advanced practioner (in our nomenclatur) i nevertheless have to believe that these differences are not of importance?

Initially I was just going to post this to a private forum for other Aunkai practitioners. A lot of these context questions wouldn't really matter there since I've met some of them and we all share some common frames of reference. At the last minute I decided to throw it out generally. I really don't care what you believe. It's not a promotional video, nor an instructional video. It's intended as part of an ongoing conversation with other people exploring similar training methods. If someone outside of that conversation finds something interesting, then that's awesome. But that was never the goal of this vid.

So if it's not about technique and not about youf body structure what can I see in your video?

Well, I would say that it is partly about body structure. If you see that or not is hard to say. I would wager Mark, Dan or Rob saw something about body structure in the video (even if some of what they saw was something negative) they probably saw something.

Technical question:
Can you get the same use out of your back arm when relaxing it or do you have to strech it out?

Very good question. The answer is I can sometimes get a similar support to the cross without the other arm outstretched and that's my goal, but I'm still working up to being able to maintain the cross just as stably no matter what the arms are doing. It's a training tool, and I am usually stronger with the arm extended. In the Iriminage, the arms are not extended into the cross after the beginning of the technique, but the cross is still behind my movements and why Jeremy goes down so fast. It also may be hard to see, but the iriminage is actually a sequence of three specific atemi using the cross. :)

Well, that's the same what we here some times. But we are just also doing aikido.
Are there teachers doing "Yamaguchi Aikido" (don't like that term) in the US?

Having felt Takeda Sensei, I would say that this is quite a bit different from what you feel in Yamaguchi style Aikido, my opinion certainly, but that's all I can offer over the web.

:)

[MM]

Sorry for the delayed responses, more to follow. My rad wife got me a PS3 for XMas and when not playing Bakugan with XuanXuan, I've been deep in the study of MotoGP 08 and Assassins Creed II (awesome). :)


Welcome to the world of PS3 gaming. :)


Yeah, I'm reminded of some of the early videos of Ark and Rob doing standing aiki-age and thinking I could see what was going on in the video. Then I met them, and realized just how much resistance Rob is capable of generating while looking like he's just standing there, then I felt Ark and realized just how much power he can generate and well, that changed things now didn't it... ;)

I will say that in the BASIC versions, Jeremy isn't offering much resistance. That's because there's no way I could throw him with those versions if he was going to resist me. He does offer quite a bit of solid foundational resistance in the second versions however. On most people at the dojo the technique actually looks more like twisted mabu/shintaijuku but I wasn't very on that night and couldn't complete the circle. Doesn't bother me one bit if you think he's tanking. Although if you know what to look for (particularly in the second frame based version of the first waza it's pretty clear he's not tanking).

No, didn't think he was tanking. More along the lines of what you thought about Rob (I haven't met Ark) generating power while just standing there. It's really hard to tell just how much structure and power someone has on video. So, I just made mention that I couldn't tell at what level of power/structure you were working.

Again, thanks for posting.

[DH]

Dan, interesting post. I'm assuming you're talking about the first one? If so, three comments. First: again I'm trying to actually do the solo exercise with resistance. I need to work at it more, as I mentioned to Mark, with most folks I can basically just do twisted mabu, but Jeremy is really solid. Second, the more applied version of what I demonstrated there (the one that Neil likes a lot better) is much more in line with what you recommend. The waist drives the cross in a pure horizontal plane until uke is compressed then we add a weight drop to effect the throw. Third: the heel rotation is from our Yanagi Ryu influence, so take it up with Don. ;)

Thanks very much for the comments!
Hi Chris
Actually I'm talking about both.
No big deal. I was suggesting that with the feet flat on the floor and the hips staying in line; the feet / waist / spine and arms will no longer just be moving horizontally or "together" in the way you are moving.
*Note, I'm not talking right or wrong here. I am talking about how you are training the body for power. When I see various kokyu throws being worked on I don't think just horizontal and I don't think hips. The legs would "each" be supported by two different things going on in them at same time as well which keeps the feet ankles in-line and stable-so for my purposes much of that movement violates what I would be seeking to remain connected. The pronated hip you end up with in your turn is just not somewhere I want to go in my own training. YMMV.
You might want to consider how what you are doing and specifically working on will "feel" and function while making repeated cuts across a floor with changing vectors and angles with a sword or large weapons. I think not so good.

Since you would have to change the essential body quality- why do anything that isn't consistent and cogent throughout? As you have noted by your many influences; there are ways to do things that are not all the same and indeed do conflict. For me I prefer movement that is consistent from start to finish, unarmed, and armed with sword, long weapons or twin sticks, Aikido, Jujutsu, MMA, etc.
Happy Holidays
Dan

[MM]

This post seems relevant:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7380&p=124273#p124273

[thisisnotreal]

This post seems relevant:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7380&p=124273#p124273

whaddya do if you can only 'feel' it so far..and gets stuck? or if there are gaps in `yer lines?

-keep trying
-stretch
-flex more
-hold static
-soft tissue work

??

[Mike Sigman]

This post seems relevant:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7380&p=124273#p124273I think that post's a keeper, Mark. Thanks for pointing it out. Everyone should put that one in their files for future reference.

Chris: Maybe if you broke the video even further down and simply tossed the "martial applications" bit while focussing on why one thing is stronger than another? What's actually happening that you feel makes one throw "stronger" than another? Couldn't you take a static target and apply a force against it one way and then compare it with a force another way?

One of the problems, as people have more or less vaguely pointed out, is that as you complicate a demonstration with "is that a committed attack?" etc., you get diverted from the point you're trying to make and think about. Frankly, the discussions about I.S. that move too quickly into "applications" also too quickly (IMO) get off into technique, uke-cooperation, and so on. I like the stark, clinical way of discussing what's going on.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[MM]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean there wasn't a committed attack. You can tell Jeremy has some force going. My point from personal experience with video is that you can't really tell how much force is being used.

Personally, I like the application usage that Chris and Jeremy showed. I'd be interested in seeing more. I think there's room to talk about how to train from solo training to two person drill training to application training. Yet still not doing techniques.

[ChrisMoses]

No worries Mark, I never took any of your posts that way. My reply to you was intended to echo how hard it is to tell how much force is actually part of an encounter on video, but must have come out like I was trying to convince you. My bad. :)

Mike, those are all good suggestions and actually reflect how we train in class to a large extent, experimentation followed by physical and verbal feedback (from Neil and from other people in the group). As for tossing out the "martial application" side, this video was never intended to demonstrate applied or "martial" waza. Both are explorations of movement with a partner, the second is more like applied waza, but it still a teaching technique for the most part.

Since my goal in posting videos is to engage in conversation and not to offer how-to or a sales pitch I don't think I would go into quite the detail you're talking about in video format. I think we would hit the same issues of what is/isn't resistance and compliance.

But, since they are good points of conversation, I'll try to go into a bit more detail here a bit later.

Thanks to everyone for the conversation, good stuff. :)

[Mike Sigman]

Mike, those are all good suggestions and actually reflect how we train in class to a large extent, experimentation followed by physical and verbal feedback (from Neil and from other people in the group). As for tossing out the "martial application" side, this video was never intended to demonstrate applied or "martial" waza. Both are explorations of movement with a partner, the second is more like applied waza, but it still a teaching technique for the most part. I take it as a given that you effect kuzushi in some manner (it's a separate discussion in itself), respond, turn, pivot, or whatever... there are a number of factors. Ultimately let's say that you look at the part where you effect the "throw". I could say (for the sake of discussion) that in the first throw you did technique, leverage, etc., and in your Aunkai-appearing attempt you did something else that was "easier" and somehow different. So just looking at that isolated part (you can see how all the rest murked up the discussion) of a "normal" versus a "Aunkai"-related throw, my question would be why that part is effective and I'd say let's break it down. If we can break it down an analyse that small part so that it's understood and then work to improve that aspect, we can ramp back up to the "martial application" level and then (hopefully) have the most effect utilization of I.S. skills in the technique.

In my opinion, jumping too quickly into the most "martial" application tends to leave people with bad habits that are difficult to correct later on.

Take a pole-shake with a white-waxwood pole as an example. In a way it is a simple "application" and I've seen a lot of people say they were doing a pole shake with "internal strength" (often some pretty strong shakes, too, which would certainly be martially applicable, if need be). Yet in many/most cases you can see that in rushing for the results (read "technique") a lot of the other factors like dantien, suit, etc., got left out. The way to analyse and correct is (IMO) to look at the exact moment of application and analyse at that one point, not cloud the issue with everything else or, worse yet, add in an attack by a partner to further cloud the issue. If you see what I mean.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[MM]

Chris,

Just curious. Where we are at now in our training, we sort of do 3 types of training with an eye towards a fourth. Roughly broken down, that is.

1. Solo training. Conditioning the body with internal training exercises. Actually the Aikido "warm up" exercises seem to be a good fit for this, too. I do the "rowing exercise" but completely differently than before.

2. Paired partner training. These are simple exercises that are either static or the most basic of movements. I guess one example would be a push test. One person stands while the other person pushes/pulls either an outstretched hand, a shoulder, the chest, hips, etc.

3. Paired partner exercises. These begin to be dynamic but aren't complex. I would put your video in this category. While we might train some specific technique, like cross hand wrist grab kote gaeshi, we aren't working on the technique. Instead, we work on keeping structure and intent under a more complex load or force. In this case, an uke who is providing force while there is movement from both uke and tori. It's never about the technique as we will stop at various times to pick up intent or structure that was lost.

4. Free style. Spontaneous techniques, randori, etc. Using aiki in a free environment. (Not there yet.)

We actually subdivide each section into two: uke is using muscle and uke is using Internal Skill/Structure/whatever. So, we will work with an uke who uses normal muscle and then we'll do the same exercise using an uke who attacks with structure. Uke reacts very differently in each mode. It's good to train against both. As we progress, the former is getting a lot easier while the latter is getting a lot harder. :)

Just wondered if that compares in any way to your training?

[ChrisMoses]

That's actually really similar to how we're doing things Mark.

Newer people will spend more time on the solo and push test phases while the rest of us will move on to waza work, but like you we're using the waza to feedback into the solo skills/sensations. Like you, we're still kind of working up to freestyle. Too early, and I think you just fall back on what you know and end up doing the same old. We do have a few freestyle drills that we do pretty regularly but they're a far cry from (judo) randori or sparring.

[JangChoe]

Chris,

Just curious. Where we are at now in our training, we sort of do 3 types of training with an eye towards a fourth. Roughly broken down, that is.

1. Solo training. Conditioning the body with internal training exercises. Actually the Aikido "warm up" exercises seem to be a good fit for this, too. I do the "rowing exercise" but completely differently than before.


Just curious, how do you do it differently? How did you do it before?