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Mike Sigman
12-22-2009, 09:43 AM
I thought I'd start a thread, per Mark Murray's denial and challenge, showing the number of threads he and Dan Harden have posted over the past 5-6 years that attempt to diminish Ueshiba's skills and contributions to Aikido. If anyone wants to help by copying/pasting all the posts into this thread, it'll be appreciated. I think we should have raffle about how many total posts there'll be total. I'd say around 30 total for both of them, but I haven't been keeping track.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

RED
12-22-2009, 06:01 PM
There was this post on Aikidojournal that was in regards to that topic: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=34

I'm not saying I agree, however. :-D

Janet Rosen
12-22-2009, 06:13 PM
I have to say that, while technically the OP is not an ad hominen attack, I don't see anything positive to come from this thread. Gonna tiptoe away before it degenerates....

Flintstone
12-22-2009, 06:17 PM
There was this post on Aikidojournal that was in regards to that topic: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=34

I'm not saying I agree, however. :-D
You'll say I'm picking a fight with you, but let me run the risk: You failed to understand that article in at least two ways. Take it as a chest beating at you or take it however you want.

Flintstone
12-22-2009, 06:18 PM
I have to say that, while technically the OP is not an ad hominen attack, I don't see anything positive to come from this thread. Gonna tiptoe away before it degenerates....
Agree. Nothing positive will come from this post.

RED
12-22-2009, 06:27 PM
I have to say that, while technically the OP is not an ad hominen attack, I don't see anything positive to come from this thread. Gonna tiptoe away before it degenerates....

Agreed lol.. I don't technically agree with the opinion I read in the article.

RED
12-22-2009, 06:29 PM
You'll say I'm picking a fight with you, but let me run the risk: You failed to understand that article in at least two ways. Take it as a chest beating at you or take it however you want.

Don't be hyper sensitive. I understand the article is not exactly what the guy was looking for. And it does not validate what he was looking to have validated,I'm aware.
Give your correction, just be respectful about it.

mathewjgano
12-22-2009, 07:08 PM
Agree. Nothing positive will come from this post.

Shucks, that sounds like a challenge I'm fool enough to accept!
+
Corny jokes aside:
I'd like to toss my wooden nickel on the heap and say that while in the past I've perceived Dan, and others (and Mike to a lesser extent) as trivializing a lot of the Aikido world, I also think they've been addressing a specific group of people within that very large world: those who thought they significantly understood the internal dynamics O Sensei seems to have had, but were way off.
That said, perhaps the trivializing (perceived or actual) of O Sensei's skill was an attempt to point toward other sources of this power...to cast him in the light of his peers for folks who might think people who weren't him had nothing to offer. I'm just spit-balling here and I'm certainly not going to copy the posts I thought sounded dismissive because I think most of us have posts which could be picked apart. Language is often imprecise and the internet seems to magnify that quality. If I had one critique of what I've seen it's that caveats are missing from many statements. However, if every appropriate caveat were employed we'd have books instead of posts.
I dunno...like I said, just spit-balling. Whatever the reality of things is I'd just like to say I've come to respect Mike and Dan for their passion and insight. The kind things folks say about you both are a testament to your roles as teachers.
FWIW (likely not much, but that's never stopped me before:D )
Matt

Mike Sigman
12-22-2009, 07:18 PM
We're in the middle of a snowstorm so I haven't had a lot of extra time to get into the full research. Here's my favorite one from Dan which there's no serious way to say that it's not a trivialization of Ueshiba:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=242489&postcount=186

Note the arrogance of this comment and remember that most of the videos of Ueshiba doing I.S. demo's are from when Ueshiba was in his eighties:

Dan:
Nor was Ueshiba speaking definitively. He only knew what he knew. I never once considered him an expert either. I mean being polite and all -Ueshiba's demonstrations aren't even close to a complete compliment of skills; I have seen him sway, be single side weighted, hip driven, among other things. He had a lot of power no question, but there's much more to the complete skills than that.

But there are many more posts over a number of years with the same attitude toward Ueshiba. And Mark has his share, which I'll get to.

Is this "nothing positive"? My question is why all the stalwarts of Aikido sit back and take this nonsense. Does anyone seriously think that Ueshiba was such a chump that he would have never answered this sort of denigration to one of his own teachers?

FWIW

Mike Sigman

mathewjgano
12-22-2009, 07:46 PM
My question is why all the stalwarts of Aikido sit back and take this nonsense. Does anyone seriously think that Ueshiba was such a chump that he would have never answered this sort of denigration to one of his own teachers?

FWIW

Mike Sigman

I can't speak for anyone of course, but my limited experience suggests most folks are too busy doing their own thing to address detractors...particularly in Aikido where non-dissention (a term I'm borrowing from Tohei's Ki in Everyday Life) is a common theme.
Having read the post I would be curious about Dan's take on it. It does sound like he views O Sensei as being whatever a non-expert might be. Only because he seems like a bluntly honest person, I'll say I think sometimes his passion probably colors his language...but I think that about you and almost everyone I've encountered here.
And now I have to go wash the taste of Addidas from my mouth...and why do I feel like I'm suddenly swimming with the sharks? Good thing I have the annonymity of the internet...oh wait...:o
Take care,
Matt
p.s. I'm only participating in this because A) it's uncomfortable for me to speak my mind, and B) I'd rather folks said what they believe in an effort to find common understanding than to ignore it for the sake of a moment's peace.
That all said, I'm probably done here. Did I mention I respect you both?:D

dps
12-22-2009, 07:51 PM
I think we should have raffle about how many total posts there'll be total.

I think we should have a raffle about how many total posts there will be before this thread gets closed.

David

mathewjgano
12-22-2009, 08:09 PM
I think we should have a raffle about how many total posts there will be before this thread gets closed.

David

Yeah...
Probably not the best way to criticize someone's mode of communication. Certainly not very "classy." Not that that makes it completely invalid. If this is a sincere effort to find agreement about how folks might discuss Aikido in the future then I see it as a possibly good thing. Dan doesn't strike me the kind of guy who pulls punches about what he thinks so I don't see much harm in folks expressing what they think. That said this doesn't strike me as the kind of thread Jun would appreciate on his forum...which I think I should have considered a bit more than I did.
And now more mouth washing: "out damned spot!"

RED
12-22-2009, 08:26 PM
It is in open discussion... maybe he'll let it fly. Either way, no one is actually discussing the topic really LOL, just discussing whether it should be discussed or not. Good times regardless. ^_^

akiy
12-22-2009, 08:53 PM
As I really do not see how this thread in its present incarnation could turn into a positive discussion, I am closing it.

-- Jun