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bujin
04-12-2002, 02:36 PM
Are there any techniques which you consider totaly useless in a fight?
I would say that majority of kokyu nage techniques are pure lŽart pour lŽart.

Armyaiki
04-12-2002, 03:15 PM
Let me be the first to say that AIkido is not about fighting and the goal would be to avoid the confrontation. That being said the connection is what it is about and any technique should work. Not saying that I can do them in a defense situation. I heard somewhere, " Aikido is 95% atemi". That statement was attributed to O'Sensei.

On a better note, use your Aikido to stay out of a fighting situation.

shihonage
04-12-2002, 05:04 PM
Aikido gives your subconcience the basic building blocks in form of "body memory", and way of movement.

For example I noticed that I have bastardized ikkyo and sankyo variations ingrained in my subconscience and they're the first thing I attempt to do during my "flinch reaction" (when a buddy tries to mock attack, etc).

Some Aikido stuff looks pretty silly, but it should in no way diminish it's value.

We practice idealized techniques the purpose of which is to become building blocks for "bastardized techniques" when shit hits the fan.

Brian Vickery
04-12-2002, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by bujin
Are there any techniques which you consider totaly useless in a fight?


Hello Juliusz,

Well, I can only speak on how techniques are taught in the particular dojo where I train, so with that thought in mind...

Aikido techniques are divided into two catagories:
1) Traditional Techniques
2) Practical Techniques

Traditional techniques are those which mainly teach technical skills, with little thought concerning self defense. Their main goal is to improve skills like balance, timing, blending, mai-ai, leading control, etc. They're also used as a vehicle to pass along aikido 'tradition'.

Practical techniques on the other hand are just that, practical, focusing mainly on self defense.

Now, here is where things get a bit confusing ...if you were to create a list detailing which techniques fall under which heading, the two lists would be virtually the same. The difference is in how the techniques are applied ...it's not a black & white thing, there's ALOT of overlap when it comes to application.

So what you might consider 'useless' in a fight, can be extremely valuable in teaching fundemental skills and abilities!

...just my 2 cents worth!

deepsoup
04-12-2002, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Brian Vickery

So what you might consider 'useless' in a fight, can be extremely valuable in teaching fundemental skills and abilities!


Hi Brian,

I like your explanation (seems like good value for two cents. :))

Over in the Shodokan corner (Hi Peter!) we have a series of kihon exercises that we practice every time we train. (I gather the Yoshinkan folks do much the same.)

One of the most important of these exercises is actually a series of 7 (sometimes 8) kokyu nages taken from the Nage no Kata (or the Koryu Dai Yon). These kokyu nages probably fit into the "useless" category, in the sense that you'd better not try to use them as self-defense techniques in their own right unless you are seriously good at them. But they're a long, long way from useless in the sense that they teach us all kinds of good stuff about maai, irimi, timing, maintaining centre, etc.. when we practice them.

Sean
x

guest1234
04-12-2002, 10:25 PM
Interesting that kokyu nage seems impractical, it seems to me often to be chosen in randori...

Greg Jennings
04-12-2002, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by ca
Interesting that kokyu nage seems impractical, it seems to me often to be chosen in randori...

In many styles "kokyunage" doesn't really have a firm meaning like, say "shihonage". It's a grab bag of techniques.

I've been given different translations, but I'm convinced that it really means "Overloaded Name To Confuse Student" ;) .

Some are pretty fluffy. Some are very practical. Saito Sensei's Takemusu Aikido Volume Four shows many kokyunage of a practical nature.

Best Regards,

Bruce Baker
04-13-2002, 02:59 AM
I used to wonder why we were doing what I thought were "Useless techniques"?

Until one of us had a weapon, attacking/counterattcking with bokken or jo, a lot of things seem useless ... kind of like ... why do them football guys want to push a coach on that sled thingy?

Where would you ever use that in real life?

Pushing a 300-400 pound boxed item like an outboard motor onto a hand truck maybe? I've done that for over twenty five years, not everyday but when I had to, and moved up to 600pound boxes with nudges to get them out of corners and into position to unpackage. If I had only known to use sounds and some Aikido technique, it would have been that much easier.

You never know when some silly technique actually translates into real life?

bcole23
04-13-2002, 09:36 AM
I think everyone has this same view, until they uke for someone that is really very good.

I know some of my kokyu nages still don't work like they should and always seemed like just an exercise. That is until I had that same one that never really seemed applicable in a real life situation actually used on me. They really do work.

You also need to take kokyunages with the ideas of energy and flow. You can't do an ikkyou on a semi. If you can't see how a kokyunage would work in real life, you need to do more randori, lot's more. Randori is meant to be dynamic, it's when you take control (what control there is) of that dynamism that you see opportunities and ways that these techniques can be applied.

If you're below shodan like I am, I'd take any analytical thinking about things like this with a grain of salt. I mean, before shodan, you don't even have the basics down.

Kenn
04-13-2002, 09:58 AM
Kokyu Nage isn't pointless, You're kokyu nage is pointless...........:-)

Bruce Baker
04-13-2002, 05:58 PM
You know, I was thinking about the grapplers and wrestlers who somehow get inside and go to ground, or go into the "guard" position.

(Maybe because I was grappling with an old trim and tilt on an old outboard motor today?)

Theoretically, this should not happen if you are Aikido aware, but I have seen it happen more than six out of ten encounters, and sometimes even more with really savvy grapplers?

Should we do some useless grappling releases to take control, or add it to our training as how to cope when a grappler takes control?

I thought it strange at one seminar when an instructor went into the fetal position to protect himself from attackers? Trying to spin on his side with kicks and protecting his face, he recommended making an opening and backing away to stand up, not knee walking or kneeling we use in Aikido? Claiming he could not kick, or protect himself from a kneeling position, he opted for fetal protection to survive the attack?

Is this an area of useless techniques, or an avenue that needs to be more deeply explored and mapped?

bujin
04-14-2002, 07:14 AM
Well, to beat a grappler- it is a great deal. But this is another story.
I meant that some instructors teach things that are pointless from any point of view. They donŽt teach you how to keep the right position nor do they help you in self defence.

I think that this division of techniques into traditional and effective ones is correct only to some extent. Of course, at the very beginnig you have to do every technique from the katate tori, even though you know that hardly anybody will attack you that way. But how would you explain the point of doing hanmi handachi waza?

regards

Bujin

guest1234
04-14-2002, 07:31 AM
Hi Bujin,
I'd say we do hanmi handachi for the same reason we do suwari waza ... it teaches us to maintain good posture, not over-reach, move with our hips, and move both 'feet', not just one and leave our stance too wide. If we make these errors standing we might not notice (especially if we compensate with muscle) but if we make them seated, it is harder to muscle and we often land on our nose:confused:

As for the attacks... I could be wrong here, but I'd say katate tori and ushiro attacks are very common, both against women, or against say a kidnapping target (male or female). Not every attack is a punch to the nose in a bar.:eek:

Kat.C
04-14-2002, 09:02 AM
I cannot comment on what techniques are useful or not but Colleen is right about attacks on women. I know a few women who were attacked and their attackers grabbed them, as did mine. It is different than dealing with a strike, harder to avoid, (I have found), and when you are physically weaker nearly impossible to get out of. I would find training against such attacks to be very useful.

Jorx
04-14-2002, 09:25 AM
Kokyonage pointless?

We are taught that every single technique you do with your breathpower and using the force and movement of the enemy can be called kokyonage... sot it seems to be the ONLY technique (as it really is a bag of tricks of some sort) to use in a REAL situation.

As I get the most... (I hope you get my point) atemi-based throws are kokyonage and these are among the quickest techniques of Aikido.

Some of the BASIC variations are really not much use in a real combat (kaiten-nage would be my pick) and all these slow-grab-thingies. But when you learn the quicker variations after you start getting the hang of the movements then it's a whole new world out there...

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai

paw
04-14-2002, 12:34 PM
A brief interuption....

I really don't want to get into a discussion about what techniques are "useless", I would just like to make a comment.

It appears to me that not everyone on this thread is talking about technique when giving examples. So, it may serve if someone takes a step back and clarifies things.

For what it's worth, I would say football players pushing a blocking sled is a conditioning drill and choosing use the "fetal" position in a multiple attack situation is a tactic. I would say hanmi handachi and sawari waza are training methods, at least in the context of modern US culture. At least that's how I see things.

Sorry for the interuption...

Regards,

Paul

Don_Modesto
04-15-2002, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by bujin
Are there any techniques which you consider totaly useless in a fight?
I would say that majority of kokyu nage techniques are pure lŽart pour lŽart.

In my own inquiries, I always come back to the idea that "MY aikido doesn't work (rather than AIKIDO").

I agree with other posters that KOKYU NAGE can be very effective. Watch Saotome in randori on The Principles of Aikido video. The KOKYU NAGE where you enter TSUKI with UKE running into your extended arm seems not only effective to me, but brutally so. One fellow in my current dojo gives away fifty pounds when training with me, but throws me exquisitely with a Kanai style KOKYU over the knee.

I'm inclined toward gross motor movement techniques anyway. This is probably due to my being 1) 6'1, 200 lbs, and 2) a klutz. My backup techniques--i.e., stuff I use in HENKA to compensate for a flub--involve hugging a lot: Hugging a wrist for HIJI NAGE; turning over the wrist and hugging it with the other arm for ROKKYO; hugging someone and bending over for KOSHI; hugging them the other way for AIKI OTOSHI...

I can't seem to make nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, or shiho nage work in a pinch. But I don't gainsay the techniques themselves. I still have strong memories of the intense ex-Marine, Miami cop we had who could wrap you into a sankyo in the time it took others to jab.

guest1234
04-15-2002, 05:25 PM
Ah, that's because you are at that taller end of the spectrum... now I, at 5'5" and 110#, am not so much into those hugging ones. I like most kokyu nages because they get me out of the way and let uke fall, but of the others you listed, I like nikyo evileyes (because the spiral in it facinates me, my study-buddy at my last dojo accused me of being in search of the perfect nikyo)

MaylandL
04-15-2002, 10:46 PM
I agree with the Brian's explanation of techniques. Understanding and training the fundamentals is the first part to applying techniques in different situations.

From a self defence perspective, if I didnt practice the fundamentals in posture, blending, ki extension, hip movement, hamni, positioning of hands, evasion in training I would have been in serious trouble when someone jumped me in the middle of the night while I was taking the garbage out.

Geeze, all he would have to do is ask for the smelly fishbones, rotten table scraps, vege scrapings and I would have given it to him. :D :p

So no, no technique no matter how seemingly innocuous or unglamourous is pointless. It all contributes and informs our practice of aikido.

As for kokyunage, I am reminded of a recent demonstration and seminar by a visiting Shihan (7th Dan) that clearly showed the power and application of kokyunage in aikido training and other applications of technique. Absolutely awesome.

Happy training all :) .

bujin
04-16-2002, 06:16 AM
I was also impressed by Christian Tissier shihan doing kokyu nage againt tsuki. Perhaps if I were 7th dan, I would apply this technique in self defence:D.
The problem is that it has nothing to do with real fight.

Kenn
04-16-2002, 08:56 AM
Why does it seem so many people are preoccupied with "fighting". Aikido is a great art for self defense, as well as many other things depending on your intentions, however, if you want to learn to fight effectively, in a short amount of time..I would suggest you check out Silat, Boxing, Wing Chun....etc....these arts were created to be learned quickly and be effective quickly...not so with Aikido, I believe anyway.

don't be so worried about fighting, just train train and train some more.

Kenn

Marc McIntyre
04-16-2002, 12:25 PM
Hey Guys (and gals),
I think you guys are really missing something. Kokyu nage works well within a given situation, and a given set of circumstances. Just like EVERY other technique. Aikido places no stress on any particular techniqes. Fighting situations are as varied as fighters, and each fighter has a particular "favorite" set of techniques. Nikkyo may be my strongest today, ikkyo tomorrow. As I journey through, I may find myself embracing koshi as my favorite pasttime. You are in essence recreating yourself with every class. I have caught myself, and have stopped bending Aiki to what I think it is, and I'm allowing Aiki to transform me into what we are together! ;)

Hope that helps.

Bruce Baker
04-16-2002, 05:56 PM
You mean pushing a footballsled could not be interpreted the same as O'Sensei using ki to lift a tree stump?

Or being aware of your situation/attackers could not be with ki awareness, evaluating possible training situations in aikido class too?

I guess it is all in how you percieve the depth of situation, and how you categorize it?

Gut strength is will power is ki is ...

or categorize physical motions as tactics or training methods?

I thought that is what the different kinds of training in our Aikido classes was ... drills, techniques, tactics, training methods, conditioning?

Never mind. I couldn't get those inkblots to mean anything either.

Back to the original subject ....

Depending on how you percieve benefits of mistakes, or comparative training to relate to your insight of what you wanted to do verses what happens is your ability to adapt and change within your expectation or thoughts ... and how fixated your are on the final outcome.

Sometimes ... you get it, and sometimes it just doesn't happen. Either way, did you learn something from it, or not?

If you did, then that is one less mistake you will have when you need to use it.

Simplistic? Maybe? But it applies to everything you do in life.

paw
04-16-2002, 07:34 PM
Bruce,

The original question was:

Are there any techniques which you consider totaly useless in a fight?

IMHO, that implies effective technique and in my mind that means we have a resisting opponent. As corny as it sounds, "bricks, boards, tree stumps and blocking sleds are DEAD --- they don't hit back". You can break bricks all you want, but that does nothing to help you hit a living, breathing, moving opponent. It's a dead pattern and a dead end.

So why hit a brick, or punch a bag, or pull out a tree or hit a blocking sled? The only answer that makes sense to me is to develop a physical attribute, hence, I consider such things to be conditioning exercises, just like stretching, cardio work, strength training and the like.

Deciding to go lay on the floor in the fetal position is a tactical decision. By commiting to that strategy, one limits the engagement. That may or may not be a good decision depending upon one's skill set and the situation. As a bjj'er I will cheerfully engage anyone on the ground in any sport/training setting. That's my tactical decision. In a real live "self-defense" situation, I would never willingly choose to engage anyone on the ground. That's another tactical decision. In either case, I have the same skill set and will most likely use the same techniques (practical methods applied to some particular task).

Does that make sense?


I thought that is what the different kinds of training in our Aikido classes was ... drills, techniques, tactics, training methods, conditioning?

Sigh. See Bruce, if I respond to this, then it will be very clear, very quickly why you don't want me on this thread. Let me just say this: If your assertion is true, then we have the question of tactics, conditioning, techniques, drills, training methods (yes, note the order)... for what? It is in answering the "for what" that will give us a goal, and once we have a goal we can then evaulate if the tactics, conditioning, techniques, drills and training methods are the best way to meet that goal. Which I suspect is what bujin is getting at in the original question. At least, that's how I see things....

Regards,

Paul

Bronson
04-17-2002, 03:43 AM
if you want to learn to fight effectively, in a short amount of time..I would suggest you check out Silat, Boxing, Wing Chun....etc....

Go to a biker bar, find the biggest guy in there and make a derogatory comment about his mother and the neighbors goat. If you live, keep doing it until win. There, now you can fight. But can you type? :p

Bronson

bujin
04-17-2002, 04:36 AM
Go to a biker bar, find the biggest guy in there and make a derogatory comment about his mother and the neighbors goat. If you live, keep doing it until win. There, now you can fight. But can you type?

Thanks for the advice:D .
Aikido is budo, a martial art, isn't it? It's not about competition. Nevertheless it's about fighting. If I remember well, O'sensei used to give lessons them, who wanted to try him out. What was it then if not a fight?

guest1234
04-17-2002, 06:13 AM
Well, this is just one very personal, not based on anything important opinion, but...

I'd say to some of us, budo is not about fighting, or about not fighting. And that this particular martial art is about overcoming ourselves, not others. Not everything pertaining to a warrior has to do with fighting. Secretary of State Colin Powell comes to my mind a lot lately. Definately a modern warrior.

thomson
04-17-2002, 07:13 AM
Go to a biker bar, find the biggest guy in there and make a derogatory comment about his mother and the neighbors goat.

Hey, we bikers love our goats!:p
But seriously, if you REALLY want a workout just stop by Sturgis,SD in August and pick the wrong campsite and spout off! Fun Stuff! My kinda people! :D

thomson
04-17-2002, 07:31 AM
I'd say to some of us, budo is not about fighting, or about not fighting.

I agree wholeheartly with this. I could fight before I got into aikido, I started training to learn something about myself not to become a better street fighter. If thats what I wanted out of martial arts I probably would have taken a "jutsu" style that emphasizes injuring or killing opponents.

Its interesting how often in these forums and in class we ask "will this work on the street?" While I agree its fun to play the 'What If' game, at times it seems (to me) to get out of hand in the forums. PPL bickering back and forth about who's 'What if' is a more accurate or likely in a street situation.

If you really want to know "does technique x actually work against attack y" then go out and start issuing challenges like in feudal Japan. Thats the way Musashi determined what worked and what didn't. Take a look deep inside and ask yourself why you are in MA's, ie. aikido.

Might have gotten a little off subject, sorry. Just something I had to get off my chest.

Later.
Mike:D

Lyle Bogin
04-17-2002, 10:16 AM
Perhaps "pointless" techniques are a reflection of the "pointlessness" of life.

thomson
04-17-2002, 01:56 PM
I just reread my last post and I apologize to everyone if it sounds preachy. I haven't got a clue what I was thinking. Apparently I shouldn't post anything before I've had a morning cup of coffee.

Mike :rolleyes:

tedehara
04-17-2002, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by bujin
Are there any techniques which you consider totaly useless in a fight?
I would say that majority of kokyu nage techniques are pure lŽart pour lŽart.

If done correctly, ALL Aikido techniques are kokyu nages.

Kokyu nage originally means Breath (Kokyu) Throw (Nage). However a better translation of it would be Timing Throw, since traditionally the timing was taken from the breath. You always struck or threw on an exhale.

When you do a technique in Aikido, you're always looking for that perfect timing, or at least performing the technique within the Window of Opportunity (Time) that the technique permits. Therefore, by definition, all correctly done Aikido techniques are kokyu nages, since all techniques are accurately performed within the field of time.

That means you don't have to grind down someone in a sankyo or break your partner's wrist in a kotegashi. Your training partners will gratefully follow your superb lead because you've developed impecable timing in your techniques.
:D

bujin
04-17-2002, 02:45 PM
Well, this is just one very personal, not based on anything important opinion,
IŽm afraid youŽre wrong, Colleen. No one has the right to call in question personal experience of someone else. My aikido practice is as important as yours. This is what I call free thinking.
Secretary of State Colin Powell comes to my mind a lot lately. Definately a modern warrior.
He is both poor warrior and poor secretary of state. Bad example.
Its interesting how often in these forums and in class we ask "will this work on the street?"
And this frequency is meaningful. We cannot look at aikido as if it was something idealistic, quasi-philosophy or quasi-religion. OŽsensei was a real fighter in his times. He did not avoid fighting. Ask anyone of his students, if you donŽt believe me.

If done correctly, ALL Aikido techniques are kokyu nages.

Nikyo can be also kokyu nage, if you want it. ThatŽs right.



Best regards

Bujin

guest1234
04-17-2002, 03:53 PM
Hi Bujin,

I think you misunderstood me, which is understandable, since English is not your primary language, and your English is better than my German-- nonexisitant-- (and about the same as my Russian). If you go back and read my post again, you will see I said MY opinion was personal (it is), just mine (it may be), and not based on anything important (to anyone else, to me my thoughts and beliefs are important).

I said it was MYopinion that budo was not about fighting, that it was MYopinion that Aikido is about overcoming ourselves, not others (you obviously disagree, but I am entitled to MY opinion, and it CAN be different from yours), that in MYopinion Colin Powell is a great warrior (and he is in MY opinion doing a good job of it, and his position, by trying to broker peace within the framework of an administration that is seeking war, you of course can form your own opinion).

I am sorry you did not understand and that it bothered you. Feel free to think Aikido is about fighting, to you it is, to me it's not.

Don_Modesto
04-17-2002, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by thomson
I could fight before I got into aikido, I started training to learn something about myself...

1-What made you think you'd learn it in aikido?

2-What did you want to learn?

3-What did you learn?

4-What taught you?

Thanks.

thomson
04-17-2002, 04:46 PM
1-What made you think you'd learn it in aikido?

I've just typed out 3 or 4 answers to this question and none of them seemed right. I'm sorry I can't give a good reason. It just felt right.



2-What did you want to learn?

I had a list a mile long when I started. It's started to narrow a bit, I feel as if I'm starting to focus slowly. Now I think the number one thing I would like to learn is tolerance and understanding. Right now I tend to be very critical and unbending. I don't know how aikido will teach me what I want, but again it just feels right.


3-What did you learn?

So far, that I have a loooooooooong way to go before claiming to know anything.

4-What taught you?

I'm not sure if I truly learned anything yet. I suppose if anything I'm learning by trying to be more open and listen more.

Thank you very much for asking Don, I hadn't thought of 1,3 or 4 before. I appreciate the mental 'wake up' slap.;)

Mike:D

guest1234
04-17-2002, 05:38 PM
I would like to try answering those 4 questions as well:

2. I was at the end of a messy two years trying to get a divorce. I wanted to be more certain that what I thought was right was right -- hard to explain, but anyone who has left an abusive mate knows what that means, that kind of relationship takes away one's certainty in oneself. I wanted it back.

1. I was sceptical Aikido would help, but an Iwama-style teacher I know (he's the stereotypical Iwama sandan, arms like a gorilla and about as much time spent discussing philosophy of Aikido as a gorrilla would spend :D ) told me I needed to do Aikido, that it would give me what I needed. I believed him only because he seemed to have what I wanted, and he said he was not the same man before Aikido, that if I did Aikido, I would find what I wanted.

3. Still a work in progress, but I can say what I think without worrying it will upset someone. I refuse to take responsibility that is not mine. For instance, I disagree with some of the views of some of my instructors. I am OK with not seeing it their way, but at one time would have continually beat myself up over not agreeing with them, and been afraid they would find out and it would hurt their feelings, etc. Now, I assume they are adults who can handle disagreement (they seem to be able to), and the fact that they want me to think differently doesn't mean I have to be unhappy that I don't. On the other hand, I mostly attend classes taught by instructors that are not radically different in viewpoint; still, I do sometimes attend the other's classes, and take what I can and give what I can in them. I think my personal life has made similar progress, but won't bore you with the details :eek:

4. How I interact with different teachers and partners and their personalities. Letting others take responsibility for their actions (atemi, amazingly has done this the most): my current aiki-idol really stresses the use of it, and I can see why he wants it where he does, it seems what he shows me is more 'space preserving' (or that's how it seems to me), keeps uke off of me (certainly important, especially since I'm small and folks tend to crowd me). In the beginning, I resisted doing this, as uke always seemed to run into my hand. After a while, I found I no longer cared, it was their decision to run their face into my hand, everyone knows I put my arm out to keep them off of me, I let them make their decision and I made mine.:rolleyes:

bujin
04-18-2002, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by ca
Hi Bujin,

I think you misunderstood me, which is understandable, since English is not your primary language, and your English is better than my German-- nonexisitant-- (and about the same as my Russian). If you go back and read my post again, you will see I said MY opinion was personal (it is), just mine (it may be), and not based on anything important (to anyone else, to me my thoughts and beliefs are important).

I said it was MYopinion that budo was not about fighting, that it was MYopinion that Aikido is about overcoming ourselves, not others (you obviously disagree, but I am entitled to MY opinion, and it CAN be different from yours), that in MYopinion Colin Powell is a great warrior (and he is in MY opinion doing a good job of it, and his position, by trying to broker peace within the framework of an administration that is seeking war, you of course can form your own opinion).

I am sorry you did not understand and that it bothered you. Feel free to think Aikido is about fighting, to you it is, to me it's not.

Dear Colleen,

1.Yes, indeed I overlooked that it's only your opinion. My fault.
2. Perhaps I watched "The Ghostdog" too many times and therefore I think that "budo" means "the way of samurai" or something like that.;)
3. Overcoming ourselves (beautiful phrase) is the necessary condition of any progress.
4.I suppose that your Russian is better than mine:D .
5.For me the spiritual purpose of practicing aikido is as important as its practical side.
The most important is whether your aikido works or not. Anything else doesn't matter that much. But, of course, it's only my opinion.

Best regards

Bujin

Steff
04-19-2002, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by Don_Modesto


1-What made you think you'd learn it in aikido?

2-What did you want to learn?

3-What did you learn?

4-What taught you?



:( Oh, oh - Don, these are tricky questions. But they are the ones I am asked very often when I tell people I am practising aikido. So, thanks a lot to you for asking them :) . I started aikido just six months ago and have wondered myself a lot why I started and why I am still doing it. I am very curious what the answers will be in another 6 months, in a few years aso.

But anyway, here are my answers for the time being:

1) Well, I read a few things, heard a few comments on budo and MA and whenever they were about aikido-techniques I thought: wow, perhaps I will be able to do that (I hated sports all my life so far). But I didnŽt think I would learn how to fight - I just wanted to get a better grip on myself.

2) see 1) and: Like the other two who answered so far (thankx :D ) , I had a list as long as my arm. But first place, I wanted to learn the techniques, the moving, the style. I expected the other, more philosophcal and strategic things would follow when the body and mind were ready and trained.

3) No, this would take toooooooooo much space :D

4) It was not a "what", but a"who", and it still is. All the people at the dojo, my senseis, and all the people I am talking (and writing ;) ) with about aikido.

Sorry for all the words, have a sunny day,
Steffi

Don_Modesto
04-19-2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Steff
:( Oh, oh - Don, these are tricky questions.

I realized a while ago that, unlike myself, many practitioners were attracted to the art simply for its philosophy. With me, it was a bait and switch: I wanted the martial magic promised in Tohei Koichi's books. Now, however, I truly look askance at aikido's utility--but I'm still doing it. "Why" is a good question for me, so I'll give these questions a shot, too.

1-What did you want to learn in aikido?

Effortless technique, invulnerable fighting ability (I was in my teens.)

2-What made you think you'd learn it ?

As per above, Tohei Koichi's books.

3-What did you learn?
4-What taught you?

How much I learned when uke get through defenses once in a while/the lessons to be learned from "losing"

The importance of timing, of waiting till it's right to throw, of not forcing technique/patience

How to take a punch (one of my dojos was, er, atypical)/tolerance for criticism.

How irriated I got when uke didn't fall, or did rise out of my pin (despite my desire to have authentic technique)/how my ego could interfere with my goal

To go back to the beginnning when things don't work; this probably facilitated by Saotome's genius as a teacher, his way of breaking down and grading students' approach to a technique.

The importance of connection, simplicity, and repetition. These usually arising from sessions doing kokyu exercizes; I find techniques starting to flow spontaneously from very simple beginnings.

The excruciating balance of vigor and reticence necessary for good ukemi/er, tough love?

The pleasures of community, shared endeavor, sincere colleagues.

Bruce Baker
04-19-2002, 03:42 PM
The beginning .... useless techniques

The response ... what you know.

The interaction ... personal contact.

The result ... usefull knowledge.

The end result ... a usefull technique.

The picture of life:

.... in the days black plague ... amongst the death and bitter life children sing," Ring around the rosy, pockets full of posies, ashes ... ashes ... we all fall down!"

Why?

Joy, love, and children at play are the constant Aiki of our lives.

Temper your learning, insights, and words with these things.

:triangle:

See the good in all things.

warriorwoman
04-21-2002, 08:48 PM
There is no such thing as "pointless" techniques, merely techniques we have yet to discover the point of.
janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org

Paul
05-13-2002, 09:04 AM
It would appear that the question of whether or not aikido would work for you in a fight should really read; would your aikido work in a fight?
Aikido techniques were not created by O'sensei. However they were created as real solutions to real combat questions. Aikido techniques are perfect, it is we who are ruining them.

vikki
06-13-2002, 08:20 AM
Hi, i have been doing Aikido for 11 years now and through all that time i have never seen or practised a pointless technique. we are preparing ourselves 99% of our Aikido lives ready for that 1% when we really need it. :ai: :ki: :do:

paw
06-13-2002, 09:25 AM
Well, I supose this will get me flamed and added to many ignore lists.....

It seems to me that when someone speaks about a technique, there is an implied context. In a multiple attack training situation (ie 3 ukes, one tori with sensei and class watching), I suspect that dropping down to one's knees to perform swari waza techniques is probably not the best choice for tori. Tori is probably best served by remaining standing.

Does that mean swari waza techniques are pointless? I don't know. I'd agree if someone said they were (given a specific context) and I'd agree if someone said they were not (because of benefits in other areas). I don't think labeling a technique as "pointless" is any threat or belittlement of a martial art or martial system given a specific context per se.

Ducking for cover,

Paul

SeiserL
06-13-2002, 09:29 AM
I think there are techniques that are more pratcical than others. At times, I feel that some of the technqiues I practice are to teach me principles of Aikido rather than direct application readying me for a bar room brawl. On some of Peyton Quinn's tapes, he has a sidekick that apllies Aikido very well to just this situation. Very effective.

I would also agree that the question is about the pointlessness of a certain technique more than can we discover the point and make it effective. There are technqiues that I know I cannot at this stage make work, yet I have felt my Sensei slam me with.

Just stay open and let the point discover you through the practice. There was much I did not understand and there will always be new points to discover. That's the beauty of Aikido.

Until again,

Lynn

davoravo
06-16-2002, 01:53 AM
There are no pointless techniques, just techniques you would feel uncomfortable using.

One of the junior students at our dojo (we are talking less than a handful of classes) walked up to his car to find it being broken into. He yelled out and one attacker ran up and grabbed him, preparing to punch. Our student, obviously a quick learner, turned in a circle and flung his attacker off in a kokyu nage, kicked his assailant twice in the head (aiki??) and ran away unharmed.

mike lee
06-16-2002, 11:53 AM
Turning movements are for demonstrations and direct, entering movements are for the street.

The large turning motions help students learn to use their entire body properly. If they were to try to learn quick, entering movements too soon, they would not use their entire body properly -- they would only use their arms and their technique would be weak, if not totally useless.

It's unfortunate that many teachers don't tell their students this from the beginning so that students could fully understand what they were doing in practice. The proof that many teachers don't really know what they are doing is evident by the fact that this thread even exists.

If students try to use big, slow movements in a life and death situation, they will be killed.

davoravo
06-16-2002, 11:17 PM
"If students try to use big, slow movements in a life and death situation, they will be killed. [/B][/QUOTE]"

I don't think it is that absolute. Sure, squaring off with another martial artist irimi techniques can give you the "secret-edge" you need to make aikido work, but most assualts are suprise attacks and I think that tenkan movements lend themselves well to responding to an attacker who is already on top of you.

Also, mucking around with mates, I found I got in trouble if I sped my aikido up to their timing rather than slowing them down to my aikido timing.

Jermaine Alley
06-27-2002, 11:32 AM
No such thing as pointless techniques...Every technique that you would use has some sort of purpose to it....whether it be learning how to lead, or off balance your attacker, or proper "dead angle" positioning...etc.

paw
06-27-2002, 12:15 PM
Jermaine,

No such thing as pointless techniques...Every technique that you would use has some sort of purpose to it....whether it be learning how to lead, or off balance your attacker, or proper "dead angle" positioning...etc.

Let me play devil's advocate for a second. I agree that every technique has some sort of purpose to it, but what you're describing are elements that are present in any technique. So why learn "all" techniques when "any" will do?

Curious,

Paul

bujin
06-27-2002, 01:29 PM
Any technique and any attack?
Shiho nage-mae geri, for instance, as well?

:D .

What is the point of training martial arts?
For me the most important is that such a practice would help you in a real situation.
Will aikido manage that challenge?
Mine wonŽt.

mike lee
06-29-2002, 02:10 AM
The few times that I have gotten into and actual scrape on the street, I immediately responded with a judo hip throw that I learned in 1965. It was one of the first martial arts techniques I ever learned. It's simple and effective. It was just a response -- I did it without even thinking.

I've also studied karate, tai chi chuan, and aikido since 1965. I think that the wide range of techniques that we learn in practice help us to become more solid and strong in many ways. But on the street, when push comes to shove, a few basic, proven techniques are usually sufficient.

Kevin Leavitt
07-28-2002, 05:30 PM
all "techniques" are useless in the wrong context. In the right context all "techniques" are useful.

Did you have a particular situation "what if" senario in mind?"

Suwariwaza techniques work if you are in suwariwaza. Albeit in our times you don't find yourself in it as much as you might in Japan 100 years ago.

Wiley_Allard
08-17-2002, 07:51 PM
if you find a movement useless then your either very limted in terms of imagination or purpose. Even in my forms i find uses for each this is to teadch me proper form in movement how to practice alone. I mean a rising guard for example can be used to lead into an upward oxblow from ther to a spear hand *idealy to the thorat* and to really mix it up a hip shot *step up and bump them back.

now it funny how that works move reguard as useful that really a movment into a closed stance something begainer see as usless and clumsy. Each move has a reason some times it is as they say in kung fu simply flower, but even a flower can have thorns! It can misdirect an oppent from the second intended attack.

To call any movement usless is to prove yourself a closed minded person.

Wiley_Allard
08-17-2002, 07:56 PM
ps keep in mind that the more combinations and skills a fighter has the more situations youll be able to deal and thus increasing ones possiblities in a fight any will do in a fight but FIGHTING IS NOT the soul point of the arts! Remember most that employed the martal arts did so in service to their country as risk to their own lives.

Vic_Bang
09-12-2002, 07:27 PM
Well, I'm a complete begginer in aikido and haven't practice another martial art before. Said that, my teacher uses to say that to make aikido you have to follow three rules: tai sabaki, tai sabaki and tai sabaki.

Under that perspective, seems to me that the correct aplication of a technique is not about making the oponent bite the dust at the first (maybe second) oportunity but to keep yourself out of danger...

In my case, newby as I am, that means running like hell

Jermaine Alley
09-29-2002, 10:22 AM
Every technique does not work all of the time on every person. All of the techniques are practical in some situation at some time.

But knowing that, I think that kaiten nage is one of those techniques that I still don't feel comfortable with. I got to keep working on it.....

jermaine

Jermaine Alley
09-29-2002, 10:31 AM
Paul Wyatt,

"why learn all techniques when any will do?".

Good question.. Learning as many techniques will enable you to be more flexible in your defenses. I like to think of it as having whatever I need to get through the situation. Aikido, like many other martial arts, is about developing a rolodex...in my humble opinion. a rolodex of techniques to deal with any of lifes' problems, issues, and situations..in and off of the mat.

Does that make any sense.

I have to sometimes use different techniques in an offensive kind of way. Being a cop, i sometimes have to "lay hands" on people in order to place them in custody. Some have come willingly, and others have went with a bit of an atemi, OC (mace), baton etc. I an trying to incorporate my training to fit as many situations as I can. No two, situations come with the same dynamics....

hit me back..

jermaine

DaveO
09-29-2002, 11:12 AM
....

But knowing that, I think that kaiten nage is one of those techniques that I still don't feel comfortable with. I got to keep working on it.....

jermaine
Hello, all!

OOOooo, Jermaine, you just mentioned my fave - kaiten nage. I LOVE that technique! The first time I was introduced to it was when learning Taigi#1, and to be honest, I thought it would be useless in real life. But then, someone faked a right haymaker at me during randori. Bad move. (hee hee!) I brushed his wrist with my left fingertips, stepped through and rolled him into the next uke without thinking. Very fast, completely unexpected.

HOOKED!!! :D :D

I've been playing with it since, getting into kaiten nage from a variety of attacks and entries; varying the finish. We were looking at the two-hand grab to the chest again today and I tried something new - as my Sensei came in on the attack, I grabbed her right hand, dropped under the left, slid into the kaiten nage then instead of driving forward and down, inducing the roll, I tenkanned with my right hand on her left shoulder, driving her down into a pin. I finished with 3-palms-up, which came naturally for that position.

Wild!

Anyway, what I'm getting at in this post is I'm starting to learn that techniques we think of as useless in real life may be far more effective than we think; I'd say trust the fact that those who developed these techniques did so for a good reason. :)

Thanx, all!

Dave

Kevin Leavitt
09-29-2002, 08:46 PM
Yea, Kaiten Nage is one of my favorite techniques too. Infact I use it when "sparring" with other stylist quite a bit. Seems like everytime I do something, it ends up in kaiten nage!

If it fails, you got a real nice punch or headlock to work with! great for taking uke down BJJ style!

Bruce Baker
09-30-2002, 08:58 AM
I know that I have proposed many baited questions, and saught many different answers, to which there has either been disagreement, or astonishment ... but useless techniques remind me of learning kata without learning what it is for, or how it is used ... absolutely useless.

Kind of like the practice sessions with "What if you were attacked like this" useless scenario's that never seems to happen to you.

Well, what if you did discover the point of the technique, or at leaast a reason to use it?

Kind of like the statement of "Can I help you and be helpful, or can I be less help to you and be Helpless?"

Technique, or is it the Brain Fog that has covered your logic to see the usefulness of what you do? Useless is that tool you bought on television and it never comes out of the drawer after you use it one time.

Thanks Don Modesto for your contribution to the this thread. Having reread the thread, it did indeed change the course of debate from uselessness, to usefulness ... as I will now get off my chair, turn off my computer, and go do something of usefulness right now.

See ya later.

aikigreg
09-30-2002, 11:00 AM
I just can't believe anyone would say hanmi handachi techniques are useless - that astounds me. I've gotten knocked down in randori and not had time to casually get up. A quick seated throw however gives me the time I need. *LOVE* the hanmi handachi!

eugene_lo
10-04-2002, 10:38 AM
I think that it is a good idea to reminds ourselves of what are practical techniques and what are traditional techniques. All have their uses. None are useless. Most are derived from sword techniques. Some have evolved to a point where this is unrecogzizable, some you can still plainly see the origins. Some have evolved into very practical techniques for "today's mugger" vs. an enemy samurai.

I think what is pointless is to practice aikido with the mindset that you are only trying to perfect and practice how well you can defend yourself in a fight. With this belief, then you are forgetting or ignoring the spiritual and character building aspect.

Being technically effective in aikido is great, and to those unfortunate enough to be placed in a situation where you have to test it, useful. But, that is not what aikido is about.

Technique is the vehicle used to attain improvement in the spiritual aspect, and so that's why we start training with technique and form first rather than strictly lecture and meditation. But why concentrate on just how to use aikido in a fight?

And besides, kokyu is used in all techniques. So how can the practice of kokyu be useless, as in kokyu-nage?

Good training to you.