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Brian Gillaspie
12-20-2009, 09:03 PM
I'm just curious how many dojos train for defending yourself when you are on the ground. If you do, how often do you train.

I know in a perfect world you should never end up on the ground but I know I am not always perfect....my wife reminds me of that quite often.;)

Kevin Leavitt
12-20-2009, 09:33 PM
None in my AIkido dojo...but I am a BJJ guy so spend alot of time on the ground. I do run classes from time to time on ground fighting in our AIkido Dojo for those that are interested.

swalsh
12-20-2009, 10:15 PM
All the time, it's called suwari waza and ukemi :D

Suwari waza shows us how to generate power with limited mobility as you would be on the ground and ukemi teaches us how to get back to our feet quickly so we can maneouvre again.

Regards,

Stu

Michael Varin
12-21-2009, 12:05 AM
I'm pretty sure Brian wasn't referring to suwari waza and ukemi.

We do explore ground fighting in our dojo, but not very regularly anymore. I think it is worthwhile to pick up at least rudimentary ground skills.

Whether you decide to cross-train with ground fighting, something that I think is worth contemplating, is why aikido's ground work is limited and looks the way it does.

When weapons are involved and you have multiple opponents, you have almost surely lost if you go to the ground and get locked up with one person for any length of time.

swalsh
12-21-2009, 12:44 AM
Agreed, but I think to many people discount the value of suwari waza and ukemi in this area. Common principles of all types of armed or unarmed conflict are the application of power and the ability to manoeuvre that power to it's most effective location. Being on the ground immediately impacts your ability to manoeuvre and apply your power.

Some of the lessons of ukemi are how to get back to your feet quickly and how to protect your centre while getting back to your feet. That helps fix the manoeuvre issue.

When trying to apply power on the ground, when not in the standing position, it is difficult to make effective use of hip rotation, dropping of your centre, extension, irimi etc. In the standing position, we can "fudge" those things by stepping further out or turning more, suwari waza does not let you get away with those things. So this helps with your ability to apply power with limited ability to manoeuvre, like on the ground.

I'm not trying to say that these things teach ground fighting in Aikido, just that some of the principles from those types of training are applicable to ground fighting.

Walter Martindale
12-21-2009, 02:46 AM
Agreed, but I think to many people discount the value of suwari waza and ukemi in this area. Common principles of all types of armed or unarmed conflict are the application of power and the ability to manoeuvre that power to it's most effective location. Being on the ground immediately impacts your ability to manoeuvre and apply your power.

Some of the lessons of ukemi are how to get back to your feet quickly and how to protect your centre while getting back to your feet. That helps fix the manoeuvre issue.

When trying to apply power on the ground, when not in the standing position, it is difficult to make effective use of hip rotation, dropping of your centre, extension, irimi etc. In the standing position, we can "fudge" those things by stepping further out or turning more, suwari waza does not let you get away with those things. So this helps with your ability to apply power with limited ability to manoeuvre, like on the ground.

I'm not trying to say that these things teach ground fighting in Aikido, just that some of the principles from those types of training are applicable to ground fighting.

Suwari waza may assist in control before getting to the ground situation if practiced honestly but ground fighting (in judo it's newaza, but there are still rules about what you can and can't do) contains another dimension of control. Things like never letting your elbows get straight, keeping control of your wrists, covering and countering strikes, gouges, chokes, bites, butts, and all the "dirty" stuff that isn't permitted in the "octagon"... A good offense is also a good defense, but you can't throw away the caution and forget that your opponent may have weapons or worse yet, friends.

W

Flintstone
12-21-2009, 03:11 AM
All the time, it's called suwari waza and ukemi :D
Certainly not the same.

Brian Gillaspie
12-21-2009, 05:31 AM
Thanks to everyone for their input. I agree there are many benefits to suwari waza but I was referring to being all the way on the ground. Such as on your back with someone in the top mount position.

I have done some BJJ training (I'm just a one stripe white belt and basically don't really know much of anything yet) and I can tell you the first few times I trained other bjj guys owned me because I was unable to find out how to apply the aikido principles when I had very bad positioning. I know my aikido training has helped me in some ways with bjj but to be honest it usually hard for me to tell how it is working.

So we do a little training in ground work in our dojo but I do encourage other students to look into bjj.

crbateman
12-21-2009, 08:48 AM
I have seen ne-waza practiced in a couple of independent Aikido schools, both with instructors having a pronounced JJ background. I have not encountered it in most other places I've looked at. I'm sure many will say that grappling is really not Aikido. I won't be that judgmental... ;)

RED
12-21-2009, 08:57 AM
The goal is to not be on the ground. Aikido is a standing jujitsu art. It's main assumption came from aikijujitsu , where the assumption was that you are a trained Budoka, that has lost his sword, defending against Budoka with swords. The goal is to not get on the ground in a traditional sense. (other than suwazi, which is technically standing anyways.)
The assumption in the classical sense is that your attackers are trained in Budo, and will react like one who is trained in Budo. That's why Uke traditionally reacts the way he does.

AsimHanif
12-21-2009, 09:00 AM
BJJ is fine but if you have a solid background in judo or wrestling that will work as well.
I usually incorporate ground fighting as a way of exploring if a pin is effective or in the form of kaeshiwaza.

Melchizedek
12-21-2009, 09:19 AM
^^ Hi from what i know its always depending on the person, when you practice Aikido Your no longer a warrior or a fighter but something else ____________ ^L^,

Marc Abrams
12-21-2009, 09:23 AM
As an ex-wrestler, I do add that component to my teaching at my school. It is an infrequent, yet important subject matter. That being said, being on the ground, either as the aggressor or defender, is a very risky endeavor, because most fights that end up on the ground, take place with other people around. I am very comfortable being on the ground in either situation, but I am very, very careful in being aware of my situation before I would allow myself to be on the ground for any appreciable period of time.

I think that one of the benefits of working on the ground is that it really requires internal core body movement in order to generate powerful, effective movement. If you cannot twist your hips (like in some standing throws) because you are on the ground, can you still generate the power with minimal, external movement? That is an important lesson that helps the execution of techniques when you are standing.

Marc Abrams

ramenboy
12-21-2009, 09:38 AM
at the very least, you should be able to escape the mount, and get back to your feet again.

one of my sempai does some grappling from the ground in his class, i do too in my class, depending on who shows up

Flintstone
12-21-2009, 09:42 AM
The goal is to not be on the ground. Aikido is a standing jujitsu art.
The goal is not able attainable. What will you do if you do end up on the ground. Will your suwari waza let you out of there? Assumptions...

RED
12-21-2009, 10:54 AM
The goal is not able attainable. What will you do if you do end up on the ground. Will your suwari waza let you out of there? Assumptions...

If you get caught on the ground, you have failed to practice aikido effectively. If you don't trust your aikido not to fail, then it is prudent to cross train in BJJ or other ground arts, absolutely.
However, in the end for an Aikidoka, having strong enough Aikido to trust that you will not allow yourself to be taken to the ground is thegoal.

aikishihan
12-21-2009, 11:15 AM
It is not what or how you perform, that makes it Aikido. Rather, it is the intent,purpose and spirit you bring to the task

I was not there, but I have to believe that Takeda Sokaku, amongst others, did train the young Ueshiba all aspects of their juijitsu, including an effective ground game. It was the late Doshu who de-emphasized the more sanguine training of the past.

In my dojo, I have an excellent jiu jitsu sensei give classes twice a week for any who are interested. We call it "tatami waza", avoiding calling it either jiu jitsu or aikido. The response has been most positive, and yes, the conditioning exercises are awesome!

Again, it is the "substance" of accepting and incorporating Aiki Principles when we traIn, and not the "style" of the actual training format itself, that is most important. The ways of training in Aiki are too numerable to count. Simply enjoy what you do, because you choose to do so.

RED
12-21-2009, 11:16 AM
It is not what or how you perform, that makes it Aikido. Rather, it is the intent,purpose and spirit you bring to the task



I digress, that's avery good attitude to bring to it.:D

chillzATL
12-21-2009, 12:15 PM
If you get caught on the ground, you have failed to practice aikido effectively. If you don't trust your aikido not to fail, then it is prudent to cross train in BJJ or other ground arts, absolutely.
However, in the end for an Aikidoka, having strong enough Aikido to trust that you will not allow yourself to be taken to the ground is thegoal.

No offense, but that's a naive and unrealistic attitude to have about it. It's not a matter of trusting your aikido or "not allowing yourself to be taken down". There are 101 ways you can end up on the ground while doing EVERYTHING right and there are a million more reasons you can end up there while making just a single mistake, much less several. It's simple, if you want to be prepared, you need additional, non-aikido training because Aikido does not prepare you, in any way, for that scenario.

RED
12-21-2009, 12:28 PM
No offense, but that's a naive and unrealistic attitude to have about it. It's not a matter of trusting your aikido or "not allowing yourself to be taken down". There are 101 ways you can end up on the ground while doing EVERYTHING right and there are a million more reasons you can end up there while making just a single mistake, much less several. It's simple, if you want to be prepared, you need additional, non-aikido training because Aikido does not prepare you, in any way, for that scenario.

I already digressed from my statement.
It probably is a naive statement to have. Frankly, I don't cross train in BJJ because I don't enjoy BJJ. I don't wrestle, because I hate wrestling. I have never had any delusion that I could defend myself. I don't care if I'm prepared to defend myself or not.. I keep no enemies.
I could care less about winning fights, I never cared if I became a force to reckon with.
I just love to throw people.

Aikibu
12-21-2009, 12:30 PM
Takahashi Sensei said it best....

IMO My 2 Cents is Aikido as a Martial Art should work everywhere... From to tips of your fingers to flat on your back...

Personally having a Judo background... I work really hard on my Takedown defense and that includes stuff you would not see in a match like boxing ears and fishhooks...Folks have to remember "Street" BJJ, Sambo, and other Ground Arts are very deadly when used outside of the "Octagon" Last thing I would want is to be on the ground without an effective practice to defend myself with.:eek:

William Hazen

jason jordan
12-21-2009, 12:33 PM
It is not what or how you perform, that makes it Aikido. Rather, it is the intent,purpose and spirit you bring to the task

I was not there, but I have to believe that Takeda Sokaku, amongst others, did train the young Ueshiba all aspects of their juijitsu, including an effective ground game. It was the late Doshu who de-emphasized the more sanguine training of the past.

In my dojo, I have an excellent jiu jitsu sensei give classes twice a week for any who are interested. We call it "tatami waza", avoiding calling it either jiu jitsu or aikido. The response has been most positive, and yes, the conditioning exercises are awesome!

Again, it is the "substance" of accepting and incorporating Aiki Principles when we traIn, and not the "style" of the actual training format itself, that is most important. The ways of training in Aiki are too numerable to count. Simply enjoy what you do, because you choose to do so.

Hello Mr. Takahashi
I think you and my sensei know each other
"Michael Moreno"? At any rate, I couldn't agree
with you more. I consider Aikido as a concept by which
to apply various waza and not the waza itself.

Kinda like Jeet Kun Do. Waza help to explore the principles
of Aiki.

Chris Covington
12-21-2009, 01:05 PM
I studied judo for about 6 years in high school and college. We spent a lot of time on newaza after class. One of the "games" we would play we called "back-to-back." Two people would sit on the mat with their legs out and backs touching. A third person would call the start and you'd turn and face each other. The rules were you had to stay on your knees the whole time (so no standing up) and you had to pin or tap the person (standard judo/BJJ sort of rules applied... no punching eye pokes, etc). We kept the matches to 2 min.

To make the game more interesting sometimes we would have two-on-one. After 30 seconds a 2nd person would come in and play by the same rules... stay on the knees and help pin or tap the other person. It taught me some interesting things about how to play two people off of each other much like aikido randori and I found it to be a very valuable experience. It is not a position I would ever really want to be in but it did give a great deal of perspective.

Another game we would play based on the same rules was tossing a knife in the mix. As the two people wrestled the ref. would toss in a wooden tanto or rubber knife and then we'd play it out with that. You'd have to fight your way to the weapon and then try to attack with it. Stabs or cuts to the body, neck, etc would mean a loss. Again, not a position I would ever want to be in. Most of the weapons stuff came from the "jujutsu" classes. The "jujutsu" was an American style jujutsu based on judo kata (Goshinjutsu and Kime mostly), sport judo throws and Hakko-ryu.

We would do ground work after every regular judo and jujutsu class (four times a week) for about another hour or so. I sure was in good shape back than :D

aikishrine
12-21-2009, 03:23 PM
I already digressed from my statement.
It probably is a naive statement to have. Frankly, I don't cross train in BJJ because I don't enjoy BJJ. I don't wrestle, because I hate wrestling. I have never had any delusion that I could defend myself. I don't care if I'm prepared to defend myself or not.. I keep no enemies.
I could care less about winning fights, I never cared if I became a force to reckon with.
I just love to throw people.

What if god forbid you were being rapped. i am sure you would like to rethink your stance at that point. And also remember this combat is fluid and ugly, nothing goes as planned, i dont care how great you are at a particular martial art win or lose you will get hit.

Stormcrow34
12-21-2009, 03:45 PM
I'm just curious how many dojos train for defending yourself when you are on the ground. If you do, how often do you train.

I know in a perfect world you should never end up on the ground but I know I am not always perfect....my wife reminds me of that quite often.;)

Yoseikan Budo has Judo ne waza as an important part of the curriculum. I'd say we practice ne waza regularly, but not every training session. At 9th kyu, you need to be able to effectively pin a resisting uke with at least two common techniques.

Kevin Leavitt
12-21-2009, 04:00 PM
IMO, there are several essential ground skills that should be learned by all, the clinch, escaping the mount, dealing with the guard, rear mount, and side control and standing up in base. You don't need to perfect every single pass, sweep, or even learn 101 submissions.

I am a BJJ guy, but for aikidoka and those wanting to learn SD from the ground, I modify the curriculum to teach how to recover our balance, stand back up, and escaping the positions so you can get back to your feet.

to be honest, alot of the Judo newaza and BJJ newaza is good stuff and makes for interesting practice, but is not entirely necessary to learn the fundamental skills if that is all you are really concerned with.

ChrisHein
12-21-2009, 04:54 PM
We train ground work, as Michael said. However the focus of our ground training is weapon oriented. This makes most of the skills learned in Aikido waza still very applicable.

A little time spent on the ground will make you much more comfortable then 90% of the American population if you end up on the ground in a fight. Time spent on ground work is well worth the investment.

Flintstone
12-21-2009, 05:47 PM
If you get caught on the ground, you have failed to practice aikido effectively. If you don't trust your aikido not to fail, then it is prudent to cross train in BJJ or other ground arts, absolutely.
However, in the end for an Aikidoka, having strong enough Aikido to trust that you will not allow yourself to be taken to the ground is thegoal.
I do trust my Aikido, thanks. But I know there are a million ways for me to end up on the ground. Your assumption on the art is, again, wrong and dellusional. I hope you never get to defend yourself with your infallible Aikido.

And once again, I traing in Aikijujutsu Yoseikan Ha, don't come tell me what Aikijujutsu is all about and what its assumptions are. Please.

mathewjgano
12-21-2009, 06:08 PM
I'm just curious how many dojos train for defending yourself when you are on the ground. If you do, how often do you train.

I know in a perfect world you should never end up on the ground but I know I am not always perfect....my wife reminds me of that quite often.;)

I feel like every time I've been pinned I learned a little about newaza. I can also remember a handful of times when sempai showed me that just because I had them on their back while practicing kokyuho, they were still in control. So my newaza "studies" came about informally. Then there was growing up where my first contact with "the mount" came in the form of "the piano player" in which my large friends sat on me and poked me repeatedly in the chest. I was a little out of tune I'm afraid.:p
It was awesome when I realized that through relaxation and focus I could reach up with my flexible legs and pull them backwards...um, but I suppose that doesn't count since they weren't exactly what many people would called "trained," or "good."

MattRice
12-21-2009, 06:17 PM
What if god forbid you were being rapped. i am sure you would like to rethink your stance at that point. And also remember this combat is fluid and ugly, nothing goes as planned, i dont care how great you are at a particular martial art win or lose you will get hit.

<unlurk>

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOk: that's a bit much.
First off, if Flava Flav comes up and starts rapping her, she can probably defend against that fairly easily with a set of head phones and an iPod. No take down defense necessary. :)

Second, Maggie is actively giving into the argument, she is stating clearly where her interests in Aikido lie. Why continue poking at her on this point? Further why do it in such a jarring and, in my opinion, distasteful way?

People come to martial arts for different reasons. Some have no delusions that their training will save them: others are convinced that it will. I'm not sure where the truth is in there, I just "head for the light and heat"...and crosstrain.

</relurk>

Aristeia
12-21-2009, 06:46 PM
What if god forbid you were being rapped. i am sure you would like to rethink your stance at that point. And also remember this combat is fluid and ugly, nothing goes as planned, i dont care how great you are at a particular martial art win or lose you will get hit.

I think Maggie's response was one of the best I've seen on topics such as this. What is wrong with simply saying "i don't practice Aikido to turn myself into a warrior bad ass- it's just fun". It's not combat, it's a hobby. She has enough sense to see if she was concerned about self defence she'd need to do BJJ or similar, but is cleart that that is not why she trains. Seems reasonable to me.

RED
12-21-2009, 06:59 PM
What if god forbid you were being rapped. i am sure you would like to rethink your stance at that point. And also remember this combat is fluid and ugly, nothing goes as planned, i dont care how great you are at a particular martial art win or lose you will get hit.

I took rape defense for that reason... I'm pretty good with a hand gun too ;) lol

I do Aikido because I'm in love with Aikido. It is more than just a hobby to me, and it definitely is more than a means of self defense. It is an art to me, its beautiful, and I'm in love with the art... I not a warrior, I'm a martial artist.

I sort of don't like a lot of people' s attitudes on the issue actually. Not you in particular, but there are some people about here sort of acting like meat heads, sort of jerking off about how they could beat some one in a fight and how bad ass they are....very Aiki!:cool:

Ketsan
12-21-2009, 07:09 PM
Certainly not the same.

Not the same but often just as good, real life isn't the octogon after all. To bastardise a phrase, "The guy that wins a ground fight is the guy who's mates show up first with steel toe caps/bar stool/broken bottle first/pint glass (although safety glass is a bitch here) pool cue/pool ball/knife/gun/size 9 new rocks with spikes and UV reactive laces(goths)/pen/mp3 leads"

It being the case that most trouble kicks off around alcohol and most of the time and that means groups of people. In that kind of situation the validity of ground work rapidly deminishes in the face of the reality of a full on bar brawl. That being the case the only thing you can really worry about is making sure the impact with the floor doesn't incapacitate you.

The reality of ground fighting is probably buying three or four seconds for your mate to arrive. If your mate isn't there by then his will be.

aikishrine
12-21-2009, 09:21 PM
I took rape defense for that reason... I'm pretty good with a hand gun too ;) lol

I do Aikido because I'm in love with Aikido. It is more than just a hobby to me, and it definitely is more than a means of self defense. It is an art to me, its beautiful, and I'm in love with the art... I not a warrior, I'm a martial artist.

I sort of don't like a lot of people' s attitudes on the issue actually. Not you in particular, but there are some people about here sort of acting like meat heads, sort of jerking off about how they could beat some one in a fight and how bad ass they are....very Aiki!:cool:

I agree with you Maggie, i love Aikido. It is an art and it is beautiful and that is why i practice it. However you yourself said that you are a martial artist. And true martial artist are prepared for all contingencies. And no offense but we all know that those rape self defense courses are not very good. But the handgun very effective:D though not very aiki in philosophy.

Brian Gillaspie
12-21-2009, 09:46 PM
I started the thread jsut to see if other dojos trained ground defense and did not intend for it to become a discussion on whether ground defenses should be part of aikido....although I was afaid that would happen.

For me personally, groundwork is part of aikido. If it is not part of your aikido then that is fine with me. I'll keep my opinions to myself because I know everyone does aikido for different reasons.

So I hope no one is getting to worked up by this thread. Besides, we have other things to worry about this week like reamining calm and centered while dealing with stupid people while I finish up last minute Christmas shopping.:D

Flintstone
12-22-2009, 02:44 AM
Absolutely a part of Aikido in my style. Looks like a part of O Sensei's Aikido to me too.

chillzATL
12-22-2009, 05:47 AM
I took rape defense for that reason... I'm pretty good with a hand gun too ;) lol

I do Aikido because I'm in love with Aikido. It is more than just a hobby to me, and it definitely is more than a means of self defense. It is an art to me, its beautiful, and I'm in love with the art... I not a warrior, I'm a martial artist.

I sort of don't like a lot of people' s attitudes on the issue actually. Not you in particular, but there are some people about here sort of acting like meat heads, sort of jerking off about how they could beat some one in a fight and how bad ass they are....very Aiki!:cool:

I fully understand your perspective on it. I learned long ago that people train for a variety of reasons that differ from my own. As long as you know why you train and are comfortable with that, I wish you nothing but the best, but at the same time, if that's why you train then you shouldn't offer your opinion in a thread like this one. It's certainly your right to do so, but you shouldn't get upset when the "meatheads" respond to your perspective with their own. I doubt many of those people have any illusions of being a badass. They simply want to be more prepared than you want to be.

Melchizedek
12-22-2009, 05:50 AM
What if god forbid you were being rapped. i am sure you would like to rethink your stance at that point. And also remember this combat is fluid and ugly, nothing goes as planned, i dont care how great you are at a particular martial art win or lose you will get hit.

With all due respect to all posters above, We always keep reminding our self and fellow practitioners to expect the unexpected and keep on training in various Martial Arts.

Nothing happens to anyone that s/he is not fitted by nature to bear.

Ryan Seznee
12-22-2009, 06:02 AM
I'm just curious how many dojos train for defending yourself when you are on the ground. If you do, how often do you train.

I know in a perfect world you should never end up on the ground but I know I am not always perfect....my wife reminds me of that quite often.;)

We train for it every day. One person has a Boken to simulate a katana and no one tries any BJJ or wrestling because that would be one of the best ways to get cut. In doing so, one realizes that the best way to move is determined by the situation, not the training you take before hand. How well does groundwork work when doing a 4 man randori? By the same token, one does not draw their blade and take an Aikido stance when dealing with a sniper 200 yards away.

One does Aikido in an Aikido class because it is the best way to deal with the treat before you. Every system is unique and complete for doing what it wants to do, so you can't improve Aikido by adding BJJ or wrestling any more than you could improve basket ball by adding ice skates.

Flintstone
12-22-2009, 06:19 AM
Every system is unique and complete for doing what it wants to do, so you can't improve Aikido by adding BJJ or wrestling any more than you could improve basket ball by adding ice skates.
Comparing Budo and Sports is not the wisest argument here. Also, please take a look at the pictures featuring O Sensei doing newaza, shimewaza, etc...

Melchizedek
12-22-2009, 06:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/user/03sankyu#p/f/26/_8jyGbgjTAA

Ground Defense (Humor)

DonMagee
12-22-2009, 07:24 AM
IMO, there are several essential ground skills that should be learned by all, the clinch, escaping the mount, dealing with the guard, rear mount, and side control and standing up in base. You don't need to perfect every single pass, sweep, or even learn 101 submissions.

I am a BJJ guy, but for aikidoka and those wanting to learn SD from the ground, I modify the curriculum to teach how to recover our balance, stand back up, and escaping the positions so you can get back to your feet.

to be honest, alot of the Judo newaza and BJJ newaza is good stuff and makes for interesting practice, but is not entirely necessary to learn the fundamental skills if that is all you are really concerned with.

Exactly, I think I could teach someone what they 'need' to know about recovering from a failure that leads to the ground in about 3 months. However it's going to be up to them to train it with resistance once I'm gone. Like anything else, if you want to be good at it, you have to actually do it. But I know you already know that :D

I'm just going to leave it at that before I go on a tirade about how ridiculous self defense or rape defense classes are and how useless those kind of training programs are.

ChrisHein
12-22-2009, 10:24 AM
Comparing Budo and Sports is not the wisest argument here. Also, please take a look at the pictures featuring O Sensei doing newaza, shimewaza, etc...

Just because there are pictures of Osensei doing some newaza, doesn't mean that those pictures are a part of his true vision of Aikido.

I think Ueshiba had many different ideas about his system over the years. Those things ranged from the taking of lives on a battle field, to fighting thugs in the streets, to ending violence through love etc. and many many more that I am completely unaware of as well. Anyone claiming that they have Ueshiba's one true idea of what Aikido is has to at the very least answer the question- at what time was that his ideal.

You can't defeat multiple opponents on the ground. Multiple opponents were of real interest to Ueshiba. However Martial arts in general were of interest to Ueshiba, so he probably did ground fighting and enjoyed it.

Brian Gillaspie
12-22-2009, 11:37 AM
We train for it every day. One person has a Boken to simulate a katana and no one tries any BJJ or wrestling because that would be one of the best ways to get cut. In doing so, one realizes that the best way to move is determined by the situation, not the training you take before hand. How well does groundwork work when doing a 4 man randori? By the same token, one does not draw their blade and take an Aikido stance when dealing with a sniper 200 yards away

One does Aikido in an Aikido class because it is the best way to deal with the treat before you. Every system is unique and complete for doing what it wants to do, so you can't improve Aikido by adding BJJ or wrestling any more than you could improve basket ball by adding ice skates.

I train in BJJ, and other arts, because I enjoy it and I am not trying to make Aikido something different than it is. However, I will not put a limitation on what aikido is and is not.

I do think if one of a person's purpose for training is for self defense then they should have some ground game. If I, and many others, sometimes trip or lose their balance just walking down the sidewalk then I can potentially end up on the ground in a physical altercation.

Being on the ground with 4 people attacking you is bad and so is standing and having 4 people attacking you. And I agree that everything depends on the situation. So in reality ice skates may help with basketball....if you are playing on ice.;)

aikishihan
12-22-2009, 11:46 AM
The goal of Aiki is our Purpose.

The path to Aiki, is quite another reality.

Gather all the knowledge, skills and tools you can, to ensure that you make it through to your destination.

Respect all, scoff at nothing, and your just humility will prevail.

In Oneness,

Stormcrow34
12-22-2009, 12:02 PM
Thanks Mr. Takahashi.

Happy Holidays and peace to you and yours.

RED
12-22-2009, 02:34 PM
I agree with you Maggie, i love Aikido. It is an art and it is beautiful and that is why i practice it. However you yourself said that you are a martial artist. And true martial artist are prepared for all contingencies. And no offense but we all know that those rape self defense courses are not very good. But the handgun very effective:D though not very aiki in philosophy.

Nah, not very Aiki... but that was before my Aikido days lol

RED
12-22-2009, 03:09 PM
I fully understand your perspective on it. I learned long ago that people train for a variety of reasons that differ from my own. As long as you know why you train and are comfortable with that, I wish you nothing but the best, but at the same time, if that's why you train then you shouldn't offer your opinion in a thread like this one. It's certainly your right to do so, but you shouldn't get upset when the "meatheads" respond to your perspective with their own. I doubt many of those people have any illusions of being a badass. They simply want to be more prepared than you want to be.

I digressed from my opinion the moment I relayed that my purposes for training Aikido was for Aikido's sake. So no argument here.

As far as the "meatheads"... I blocked the persons in questions when I found out they were stalking me through my dojo's website to get access to my personal contact info...creeeeepy! :crazy:

Maarten De Queecker
12-22-2009, 03:37 PM
I took rape defense for that reason... I'm pretty good with a hand gun too ;) lol

I do Aikido because I'm in love with Aikido. It is more than just a hobby to me, and it definitely is more than a means of self defense. It is an art to me, its beautiful, and I'm in love with the art... I not a warrior, I'm a martial artist.

I sort of don't like a lot of people' s attitudes on the issue actually. Not you in particular, but there are some people about here sort of acting like meat heads, sort of jerking off about how they could beat some one in a fight and how bad ass they are....very Aiki!:cool:

Well, in the end, that was wat O' Sensei and his uchi deshi trained for. They were the kind of people who could beat someone in a fight. Some of them, like Gozo Shioda shihan, were badasses. They were people who tested what they learnt by picking fights. Martial art actually means the Art of War, so if you say that you're training a martial art, it's rather normal to assume that you are preparing yourself to be able to deal with a possible assailant.

Flintstone
12-22-2009, 03:40 PM
As far as the "meatheads"... I blocked the persons in questions when I found out they were stalking me through my dojo's website to get access to my personal contact info...creeeeepy! :crazy:
Since when looking for information in a public website is considered "stalking"? Oh, yes. Since they don't agree with your opinions. That's the passive-aggressive behavior of the typical aikiflower.

Aristeia
12-22-2009, 03:43 PM
. And no offense but we all know that those rape self defense courses are not very good.out of interest brian what do you think makes the rape defence courses not very good? Just curious.

RED
12-22-2009, 03:46 PM
Well, in the end, that was wat O' Sensei and his uchi deshi trained for. They were the kind of people who could beat someone in a fight. Some of them, like Gozo Shioda shihan, were badasses. They were people who tested what they learnt by picking fights. Martial art actually means the Art of War, so if you say that you're training a martial art, it's rather normal to assume that you are preparing yourself to be able to deal with a possible assailant.

I probably am training myself to deal with a possible assailant in the end... that's just not my intent going into training.
I do Aikido for Aikido's sake... if that makes me ready to defend myself, its a great outcome of my intent.

Ryan Seznee
12-22-2009, 06:42 PM
Comparing Budo and Sports is not the wisest argument here. Also, please take a look at the pictures featuring O Sensei doing newaza, shimewaza, etc...

He also did sumo at a point in his life, a soldier, a stationary store owner, and he was also a Shinto priest. Should we all do that in order to be good Aikido practitioner, too?

Given his Sumo and jujutsu background, I am not surprised that he did it at one time, but I don't think that it is Aikido. O'Sensei studied under a couple different teachers in his time, so did ground work... nothing stuck past the war by any accounts I have ever heard.

RED
12-22-2009, 06:59 PM
Sport to Budo isn't the worse comparison actually. Not at least, when this entire thread is bringing in BJJ and MAA, which are sports.
If you can make a comparison between non-competitive martial training, and competitive, then why not sports be a good argument?

Ryan Seznee
12-22-2009, 07:34 PM
Since when looking for information in a public website is considered "stalking"? Oh, yes. Since they don't agree with your opinions. That's the passive-aggressive behavior of the typical aikiflower.

Why do you hate women? That was the most sexist statement I have ever heard.

RED
12-22-2009, 07:47 PM
I refrain to the 'meat head' comment.Not in reference to anyone present. I was inference to someone who had chased down my personal info on here through my dojo's site, to send me personal email to my personal email account that were extremely sexist and threatening. Thus, they were being a "meat head" expelling how they could beat me up and how they were better than me... I blocked them lol

akiy
12-22-2009, 07:52 PM
Can people please stop with the personal discussion and get back to the subject at hand?

Thank you,

-- Jun

ramenboy
12-22-2009, 09:04 PM
...chased down my personal info on here through my dojo's site, to send me personal email to my personal email account that were extremely sexist and threatening. Thus, they were being a "meat head" expelling how they could beat me up and how they were better than me...

wow...

gandhi said "It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."

anyways, back on topic, mag, yup, you 'shouldn't' end up on the ground, but it is important to know what to do if you end up there. aikido is a long road. until i'm that confident that i won't end up on the ground, i'll keep doing some ground defense :P

Kevin Leavitt
12-22-2009, 10:49 PM
out of interest brian what do you think makes the rape defence courses not very good? Just curious.

I could rant about this all day long. Maybe Don will chime in as well as I believe he holds the same philosophy I do on this.

The average rape and/or "quickie SD" course for women really don't teach them much about what really happens in these situations.

What needs to happen is a bunch of stuff on situational awareness and risk mitigation. How to walk through parking lots, awareness of the space around you, don't walk alone and all that stuff. The classes should also address the psychological issues of Rape/Car Jacking etc. Alot of this stuff would scare the pants off of someone and not leaving them feeling very good about what they are going to face.

Once you get into the physical aspect, you need to replicate the environment. Gettting pushed into a vehicle, getting raped in a vehicle, how to escape, how to defend yourself. Dealing with being pinned between vehicles, the fact when you do the foot stomp, groin strike...you better have a back up plan on how you are gonna out run him cause he is going to be very pissed now and is going to do some serious harm. How to deal with "after the rape". How to escape while he is raping you...all that stuff.

It is some seriously heady stuff that gets emotional and can scare normal, everyday women away from even wanting to train in the seminar cause the training itself I think should be down right abusive in a controlled manner in order to take them to the state of adrenal response/overload.

So, IMO, it is not something that can be taught in a few hour seminar other than "Self Defense" mitigation or SD risk management concepts. If you are going to deal with this comprehensively and physically, it has to get tough and serious.

Frankly, I am not a psychologist or a therapist so don't feel comfortable teaching a "quicky class" that would be this intense.

What I have done, and will do for women that are interested is spend time teaching them the fundamentals of Ground fighting, clinching, escaping the mount, side control etc. Things they will experience in a rape or SD situation when they are fighitng someone that is bigger than them. If they are interested in really learning this stuff, it is best done slowly over time with increasing combat pressure that matches what their skills and abilities can handle. As they master the basic and fundamental skills, there ability to handle stress/adrenal overload increases as their confidence increases.

But, alas, this is no different than how you teach any decent BJJ class! lol!

Ryan Seznee
12-23-2009, 04:54 AM
"I do not fear a man that has practiced 1000 kicks once, but I do the man who has practiced 1 kick 1000 times." -Bruce Lee

In my mind, since no one realistically has 10 hours a day to train in hand to hand combat (unless you are a professional fighter of some sort) there will be some holes in your defense. I can ether me mediocre in ground work, standing throws, kicks, punches, and weapons work by taking on the top 7 martial arts of the time, or I can commit myself to one to be good at. I have known too many people that are trying to be some kind of invincible super warrior in their persecutes of martial arts who have just been left by the way side in all aspects of their training because they don't have enough time or energy to pursue all of their goals at once. Whatever you decide to do, do it well and good things will happen :)

Only empty cups can be filled.

DonMagee
12-23-2009, 06:10 AM
I could rant about this all day long. Maybe Don will chime in as well as I believe he holds the same philosophy I do on this.

The average rape and/or "quickie SD" course for women really don't teach them much about what really happens in these situations.

What needs to happen is a bunch of stuff on situational awareness and risk mitigation. How to walk through parking lots, awareness of the space around you, don't walk alone and all that stuff. The classes should also address the psychological issues of Rape/Car Jacking etc. Alot of this stuff would scare the pants off of someone and not leaving them feeling very good about what they are going to face.

Once you get into the physical aspect, you need to replicate the environment. Gettting pushed into a vehicle, getting raped in a vehicle, how to escape, how to defend yourself. Dealing with being pinned between vehicles, the fact when you do the foot stomp, groin strike...you better have a back up plan on how you are gonna out run him cause he is going to be very pissed now and is going to do some serious harm. How to deal with "after the rape". How to escape while he is raping you...all that stuff.

It is some seriously heady stuff that gets emotional and can scare normal, everyday women away from even wanting to train in the seminar cause the training itself I think should be down right abusive in a controlled manner in order to take them to the state of adrenal response/overload.

So, IMO, it is not something that can be taught in a few hour seminar other than "Self Defense" mitigation or SD risk management concepts. If you are going to deal with this comprehensively and physically, it has to get tough and serious.

Frankly, I am not a psychologist or a therapist so don't feel comfortable teaching a "quicky class" that would be this intense.

What I have done, and will do for women that are interested is spend time teaching them the fundamentals of Ground fighting, clinching, escaping the mount, side control etc. Things they will experience in a rape or SD situation when they are fighitng someone that is bigger than them. If they are interested in really learning this stuff, it is best done slowly over time with increasing combat pressure that matches what their skills and abilities can handle. As they master the basic and fundamental skills, there ability to handle stress/adrenal overload increases as their confidence increases.

But, alas, this is no different than how you teach any decent BJJ class! lol!

I think you covered it fairly well. Self defense class instructors are basically pulling the same bull as those 'defeat any man' ads you see online. It's a feel good ploy, nothing more. You can yell "That's my purse" and kick a dummy in the groin all you want, it's not going to do a damn thing to improve your ability to defend yourself.

What is required is exactly what you posted above, basically a full time study dedicated to the situation with drills, pressure testing, and increasing resistance. Instead what they get is a few hours (if they are lucky) of some guy teaching weak ass wrist grab escapes, eye rakes, and groin kicks.

Kevin Leavitt
12-23-2009, 06:22 AM
Ryan you bring up a very good point about priorities and tradeoffs. That is the big thing we face in our training, there are only so many hours in the day, week, month, year to train so we have to decide what is the best use of our time.

Most of us got involved in our martial practices mainly because of affinity or proximity. that is, we knew someone that was studying X so we went with them to the dojo, or we were familiar with it from the media (affinity). Or it happened to be close by or available (proximity).

Very few, I believe, actually go into a practice definitively knowing the endstate of what they want and how to get to that endstate in martial arts. Especially the more esoteric arts (non-sport based).

So whatever is being taught is what is being taught and that is what we study and how we begin to form our "Martial Paradigm".

That is all fine and good until we meet something or someone that brings a different set of rules, assumptions, parameters to us and it does not work well with that paradigm, or we can't figure out how to solve the particular problem that it creates. This dissonance is really what we focus on alot here on Aikiweb and many instructors/sensei/shihan are not always able to handle our dissonance very well for us for a number of reasons. (ability, time, access).

Anyway, so everything is a trade off for sure. I think the best we can hope for is to try and understand what our own priorities are and understand our own shortfalls and either accept them or go figure out how to fix them. Too many folks I run into are not honest with themselves in this respect or they most likely are not really sure how to deal with the conflict that is created in this area.

While Maggie S and I don't share the same goals in our training from reading her post, I appreciate her response to the question about why she does aikido and frankly I am okay with that as it appears she understands why she is studying it. I think we could train together just fine even though we may have different end states. Maybe not just all the time since our goals would be different.

So I agree Ryan, there seems to be alot of guys out there trying to be super warriors and really driving themselves nuts in the process since father time will probably beat them up and submit them way before they reach their goal of "super warrior".

In my mid forties now I see that father time has picked up his training pace and I have to figure out new ways to be clever to beat his ass since the same linear path of train longer hours and harder will not work!

Anyway...good stuff and I agree!

Kevin Leavitt
12-23-2009, 06:28 AM
I think you covered it fairly well. Self defense class instructors are basically pulling the same bull as those 'defeat any man' ads you see online. It's a feel good ploy, nothing more. You can yell "That's my purse" and kick a dummy in the groin all you want, it's not going to do a damn thing to improve your ability to defend yourself.

What is required is exactly what you posted above, basically a full time study dedicated to the situation with drills, pressure testing, and increasing resistance. Instead what they get is a few hours (if they are lucky) of some guy teaching weak ass wrist grab escapes, eye rakes, and groin kicks.

The other thing too I think is that Women's SD training must become personal. That is, every woman is different and has different things that make her tick, different triggers, responses, fears etc. So a "one size fits all" approach to SD just doesn't work IMO.

RED
12-23-2009, 02:17 PM
I could rant about this all day long. Maybe Don will chime in as well as I believe he holds the same philosophy I do on this.

The average rape and/or "quickie SD" course for women really don't teach them much about what really happens in these situations.

What needs to happen is a bunch of stuff on situational awareness and risk mitigation. How to walk through parking lots, awareness of the space around you, don't walk alone and all that stuff. The classes should also address the psychological issues of Rape/Car Jacking etc. Alot of this stuff would scare the pants off of someone and not leaving them feeling very good about what they are going to face.

Once you get into the physical aspect, you need to replicate the environment. Gettting pushed into a vehicle, getting raped in a vehicle, how to escape, how to defend yourself. Dealing with being pinned between vehicles, the fact when you do the foot stomp, groin strike...you better have a back up plan on how you are gonna out run him cause he is going to be very pissed now and is going to do some serious harm. How to deal with "after the rape". How to escape while he is raping you...all that stuff.

It is some seriously heady stuff that gets emotional and can scare normal, everyday women away from even wanting to train in the seminar cause the training itself I think should be down right abusive in a controlled manner in order to take them to the state of adrenal response/overload.

So, IMO, it is not something that can be taught in a few hour seminar other than "Self Defense" mitigation or SD risk management concepts. If you are going to deal with this comprehensively and physically, it has to get tough and serious.

Frankly, I am not a psychologist or a therapist so don't feel comfortable teaching a "quicky class" that would be this intense.

What I have done, and will do for women that are interested is spend time teaching them the fundamentals of Ground fighting, clinching, escaping the mount, side control etc. Things they will experience in a rape or SD situation when they are fighitng someone that is bigger than them. If they are interested in really learning this stuff, it is best done slowly over time with increasing combat pressure that matches what their skills and abilities can handle. As they master the basic and fundamental skills, there ability to handle stress/adrenal overload increases as their confidence increases.

But, alas, this is no different than how you teach any decent BJJ class! lol!

I took a course that as required as a pre-rec for a ministry degree. I was entering the mission field. I'm not sure how effective it was, but they wouldn't let me enter certain areas of Brazil without it. Then again, being 5'3", 'm not sure if there is a lot I could of done at that point if I was isolated and ganged up on in a 3rd world village.
I don't personally trust my ability to defend myself for real in any sense technically. Its not a confidence problem. I'd most likely die trying to take the guys heart out with my hands... but I would still most likely die. I'm not buff.:hypno:

I took a total of 1 BJJ class, I trained with the only girl in the class, an I was way out of her weight class, and there was no one else there that could train with me, so guess that wasn't gonna work out.

RED
12-23-2009, 02:38 PM
While Maggie S and I don't share the same goals in our training from reading her post, I appreciate her response to the question about why she does aikido and frankly I am okay with that as it appears she understands why she is studying it. I think we could train together just fine even though we may have different end states. Maybe not just all the time since our goals would be different.


Yeah, I probably couldn't help you learn to fend off any real attack. (especially considering I'm tiny, and can't hit very strong.) But I'd be as giddy as a school girl to let you practice hip throws on me. Happiness is being thrown, and vise versa.

Brian Gillaspie
12-23-2009, 03:10 PM
I've been around Aikiweb for a while but really haven't posted much and then I start this thread and look what happens.:D

I believe O'Sensei said to train joyfully (not sure of his exact words) so if you don't like BJJ, Aikido, basketball, painting, or whatever else then I don't think you should do it.

Life is short so do what it takes to be happy. If you don't do groundwork in your Aikido and that makes you happy then that is ok with me. If you do groundwork in your Aikido and that makes you happy then that is also ok with me.

Maybe if I keep posting enough I'll actually be able to post some great comments like Kevin, Don, and all of the other regulars on here instead of starting international arguments.

Happy holidays everyone!

Demetrio Cereijo
12-23-2009, 03:38 PM
Tachi waza, hanmi handachi waza, suwari waza, ne waza... what's the (real) difference?

ChrisHein
12-23-2009, 05:03 PM
Tachi waza, hanmi handachi waza, suwari waza, ne waza... what's the (real) difference?

Sabaki.

Stormcrow34
12-23-2009, 05:50 PM
I took a total of 1 BJJ class, I trained with the only girl in the class, an I was way out of her weight class, and there was no one else there that could train with me, so guess that wasn't gonna work out.

Why not train with the guys????

RED
12-23-2009, 06:15 PM
Why not train with the guys????

I was pointed towards the girl, and she was my only partner, even as others changed partners for like an hour and a half. Not sure really though. Maybe they wanted us to be close in weight class? Maybe they didn't want sweaty dudes feeling all over a girl? Or, maybe they weren't really interested in keeping me as a student? Or a mixture?
They were kind to me over all however.

DonMagee
12-23-2009, 07:29 PM
Why not train with the guys????

Yea, we just mix the girls in with the guys. Most can't cut it. The ones that do however become nothing to trifle with.

Michael Varin
12-24-2009, 12:03 AM
I trained with the only girl in the class, an I was way out of her weight class, and there was no one else there that could train with me, so guess that wasn't gonna work out.

When I used to train BJJ (can't believe it's been almost 8 years), we were encouraged to change partners throughout the "rolling" portion of class. I noticed a strong tendency of students to stick within their "weight class" and sex.

I don't like this approach to training, so I would always roll with the heavy weights, the women and even the one kid in our class. I think it makes you better.

Stormcrow34
12-24-2009, 07:07 AM
I was pointed towards the girl, and she was my only partner, even as others changed partners for like an hour and a half. Not sure really though. Maybe they wanted us to be close in weight class? Maybe they didn't want sweaty dudes feeling all over a girl? Or, maybe they weren't really interested in keeping me as a student? Or a mixture?
They were kind to me over all however.

Was this in Jacksonville? I can point you in the direction of a good GJJ school up there if you're interested.

When I train in GJJ there is often a female or two in class which is great! Women benefit from this training as much as anyone else. And sure there are some guys that shy away from training with the ladies because the guard can be awkward....if that's how you want to look at it....but that isn't how it should be viewed...and is a bit juvenile, IMO. But it was probably because you were new, they weren't sure how you would react to training with the guys. Could have been you and the other girl were both new?

I agree 100% with Mr. Varin. Training with different body types, especially larger and stronger, is very important and forces you to focus on proper technique and principles.

Kevin Leavitt
12-24-2009, 07:23 AM
I know this seems obvious to most, but you have to seek out different training partners and work on different things with each of them.

One of the joys I have learned in the last year as I mature in BJJ is that each person you train with has a different blueprint and you have to read that blue print and determine what value in training you can get from that person..or if you are way better than them, out weigh them, out class they...whatever...what can you transmit or offer to them in a way that they can learn from you.

No different than AIkido, it is just that I think in BJJ for most, it is less noticeable in the beginning since we spend the first couple of years in training just simply surviving the practice and learning the basics.

Blue belts are also a big part of the problem in BJJ. When most people talk about BJJ I ask who they learned that from or what belt they are. Usually it is a blue belt. sigh.

Blue belts are like new brown belts or shodans in aikido. They know enough to be dangerous and yet not enough yet to demonstrate or teach well! The problem is that they actually have alot of proficiency martially and can spank the average person in grappling. Given the fact that BJJ is young in the US, given the fact that you can get to Blue Belt in about 24 to 36 months...there are alot of Blue Belts runnning around espousing BJJ in the 20 to 30 years of age bracket.

Most of these blue belts also are enamored with competition success and rely on a great deal of physical stamina and athletic proweness and their game and technics are not fully developed in depth and breadth...they simply have developed skills good enough to defeat other blue belts!

Okay, so enough on that.

So, Blue belts that fill the dojo will typically gravitate towards people of their own size and liking...that will reinforce their egos etc. They are not in the sharing mode too often either, so females in the dojo will typically be shunned since these guys are in the "take" mode vice the "give" mode.

Then there is always a chance that a girl will make them look bad!

I know one in particular that I have trained with that I LOVE to bring in and own all the guys...including me!

Anyway, dojos are dojos...and there will always be the same issues in getting people to work together.

Weight and size are a big factor in martial success. In BJJ this is very evident and honest.

I think it is a blessing and a curse at the same time that aikido waza de-emphasizes these factors. On one had it allows people to train together regardless of size and it opens up communication channels. On the other hand, it can give a unrealistic perspective martially on the relative value of weight/size/strength in fighting.

RED
12-24-2009, 01:50 PM
Was this in Jacksonville? I can point you in the direction of a good GJJ school up there if you're interested.

When I train in GJJ there is often a female or two in class which is great! Women benefit from this training as much as anyone else. And sure there are some guys that shy away from training with the ladies because the guard can be awkward....if that's how you want to look at it....but that isn't how it should be viewed...and is a bit juvenile, IMO. But it was probably because you were new, they weren't sure how you would react to training with the guys. Could have been you and the other girl were both new?

I agree 100% with Mr. Varin. Training with different body types, especially larger and stronger, is very important and forces you to focus on proper technique and principles.

It was over in Orange Park I took that class. A Mr. Smiley's class.

Michael Varin
12-25-2009, 02:42 AM
Weight and size are a big factor in martial success. In BJJ this is very evident and honest.

I think it is a blessing and a curse at the same time that aikido waza de-emphasizes these factors. On one had it allows people to train together regardless of size and it opens up communication channels. On the other hand, it can give a unrealistic perspective martially on the relative value of weight/size/strength in fighting.

Great points, Kevin.

I think it's well past time that aikidoists take a more honest look at their practice.

Of course, a major part of that is looking at the context in which aikido techinque is relevant.

Kevin Leavitt
12-25-2009, 07:21 AM
absolutely Michael...context is very important and both BJJ and AIkido folks need to understand this.

Flintstone
12-25-2009, 02:50 PM
Why do you hate women? That was the most sexist statement I have ever heard
Maybe Jun allow you to say this, but I do not. Hope you're happy with yourself at the end of the day.

Maarten De Queecker
12-25-2009, 03:10 PM
Maybe Jun allow you to say this, but I do not. Hope you're happy with yourself at the end of the day.

And a merry christmas to everyone!

RED
12-25-2009, 03:53 PM
And a merry christmas to everyone!

:D it's the season.

Ron Tisdale
12-26-2009, 01:13 PM
I think Maggie's response was one of the best I've seen on topics such as this. What is wrong with simply saying "i don't practice Aikido to turn myself into a warrior bad ass- it's just fun". It's not combat, it's a hobby. She has enough sense to see if she was concerned about self defence she'd need to do BJJ or similar, but is cleart that that is not why she trains. Seems reasonable to me.

Seems reasonable to me as well...as long as you are consistent in your stance, and no more apply your motives to someone else than you want them to apply their motives to you.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
12-26-2009, 01:20 PM
Why do you hate women? That was the most sexist statement I have ever heard.

Sorry, from the information presented, I don't follow...

Best,
Ron

Kevin Leavitt
12-26-2009, 09:22 PM
Yea that one escapes me too Ron

CNYMike
12-29-2009, 06:40 PM
I'm just curious how many dojos train for defending yourself when you are on the ground. If you do, how often do you train.

I know in a perfect world you should never end up on the ground but I know I am not always perfect....my wife reminds me of that quite often.;)

No, but I don't worry abut it.