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swalsh
12-18-2009, 03:05 AM
A query some of the learned folk of this forum may be able to answer. I recently had a discussion with a friend who studies Yoseikan Aikido and the differences between waza names e.g. Ikkyo, Ikkajo, Robuse. On my Yoshinkan side of the house, we are often told that the waza names come from the pre-War naming. My Yoseikan friend mentioned that the naming of Aikido waza in the modern Ikkyo, Nikkyo etc forms took place during a conference in the 60's era.

Is this rumour or can anyone confirm/deny? When in the development of Aikido did they stop using the Daito ryu waza names and start using the modern names?

Regards,

Stu

AsimHanif
12-18-2009, 10:34 AM
I was once told by a former Hombu deshi that O'Sensei would do a technique (after some esoteric discussion), say 'kokyunage', then leave...lol The problem he stated was that O'Sensei called every technique 'kokyunage' so K.Ueshiba and some of the other seniors started to name the techniques for the sake of clarity...although ikajo, nikajo, etc were in use pre-war.
I'm not sure how true the story is but if so I find it telling in how O'Sensei viewed what he was doing.

chillzATL
12-18-2009, 10:48 AM
You would do well to refer to some of the work of Stan Pranin and Ellis Amdur for more in depth knowledge on this, as my answer will be rudimentary at best, but it goes something like this:

Daito-ryu has series of techniques named ikkajo, nikkajo, etc (there were many techniques in each series). When O'sensei synthesized his Daito-ryu into what became Aikido, he essential took one technique from each of these series and that's the Ikkyo, nikkyo, etc that we have today. Though I can't recall of O'sensei actually named them specifically, that transition would have been right before or right after WWII. That's not a pinpoint anwer, but it's as close as I can give.

The systemization of the techniques, I believe, was done by second Doshu.

RED
12-18-2009, 07:09 PM
O sensei never named any of it, he just did it to my understanding. The Doshu ruled at that. Typical Aikikai Aikido still uses the waza that the Doshu used. Different federations diverted from that waza calling.

Ikkyo, nikkyo... it is just numbers, like, technique #1 and technique #2 ^_^

Ron Tisdale
12-19-2009, 01:46 PM
Does anyone know if the Daito ryu licenses given to the prewar deshi were written by Ueshiba? If so, does anyone know of the actual technique names were listed, and if so, what names were used?

My guess is that Ueshiba wrote those scrolls, or at least dicatated them, and that there were specific technique names used, and that they followed closely the Daito ryu naming conventions.

A lot of those licenses were lost during the war (I believe Gozo Shioda's was) but surely at least some of them survived.

Best,
Ron

odudog
12-20-2009, 01:04 PM
From my understanding, some of the previous posts have bits and pieces of the answer. Daito-ryu has several classifications with numerous techniques within each class {ikkajo, nikajo, sankajo, etc..}. O'Sensei took several techniques from each classification when making Aikido. Some of the techniques names were changed while some were kept the same. Ikkyo is Ippon dori in Daito-ryu and Nikyo is Shuto zume while Kotegaeshi remained the same as examples. I think O'Sensei gave the names to the techniques for Saito Sensei and Ichidai Doshu has the same name for the techniques but they didn't practice together. One being in Iwama while the other being in Tokyo.

Flintstone
12-20-2009, 04:15 PM
And then we have the Yoseikan case, with Robuse being Ikkyo, Kote Kudaki being Nikyo, Mukae Daoshi being Irimi Nage and so on. If O Sensei is the source for the names of the techniques... why Mochizuki changed them? Or O Sensei's not the source?

swalsh
12-20-2009, 08:39 PM
Thanks for all your input.

The systemisation of Aikido by Doshu, Saito, etc makes sense and that would explain the modern naming and timeframes.

Aikilove
12-21-2009, 04:05 AM
From my understanding, some of the previous posts have bits and pieces of the answer. Daito-ryu has several classifications with numerous techniques within each class {ikkajo, nikajo, sankajo, etc..}. O'Sensei took several techniques from each classification when making Aikido. Some of the techniques names were changed while some were kept the same. Ikkyo is Ippon dori in Daito-ryu and Nikyo is Shuto zume while Kotegaeshi remained the same as examples. I think O'Sensei gave the names to the techniques for Saito Sensei and Ichidai Doshu has the same name for the techniques but they didn't practice together. One being in Iwama while the other being in Tokyo.
Saito M. and Ueshiba K. certainly did practice together... in Iwama after the war. O-sensei had retired to Iwama and so his deshis had to go there for direct training with him. Tohei K, Ueshiba K, Shioda G, Abe and Saito all trained together there under the tutelage of the founder.

/J

odudog
12-26-2009, 04:32 PM
Saito M. and Ueshiba K. certainly did practice together... in Iwama after the war. O-sensei had retired to Iwama and so his deshis had to go there for direct training with him. Tohei K, Ueshiba K, Shioda G, Abe and Saito all trained together there under the tutelage of the founder.

/J

By practice together, I mean come up through the ranks and struggle and experiment with each other on how the techniques are supposed to work. When O'Sensei retired to Iwama, he gave over the day to day operation of honbu to Ichidai Doshu. He was/had to be accomplished in his own right to run/teach at the dojo for the other senior students to follow him.