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Aikidonewbie
12-13-2009, 09:42 AM
I have a problem when I apply Ikkyo. I am 6'2 so, for instance once I have grabbed my opponent's arm and turned my hips into the motion, my opponent is bent pretty far down, and I am still in a standing position and unable to exert any real force on their arm, I found that I have to lean over to get closer to the arm. So usually this results in a clumsy motion with Uke having to pretend and assist me. Anybody ahve any tips for this problem? I am a beginner by the way...

raul rodrigo
12-13-2009, 09:57 AM
Why do you need to get closer to the arm? You're holding it.

Shadowfax
12-13-2009, 10:05 AM
Bend your knees....You don't need a whole lot of force as long as you have Ukes balance.

ChrisHein
12-13-2009, 11:09 AM
Bend your knees....You don't need a whole lot of force as long as you have Ukes balance.

I agree with this comment. Once your weight is over uke, unless uke is shifting his weight backward (not proper ukemi for ikkyo) you should be able to simply bend your knees and bring him down.

If you are having a problem with this still, because you don't quite have uke when you are at the rest position (standing with uke controlled in ikkyo in front of you) then you can step at an angle to uke's body; through the armpit of the arm you are applying ikkyo to. This will bring most down, if they are taking the proper ukemi for ikkyo.

Aikidonewbie
12-13-2009, 12:24 PM
I agree with this comment. Once your weight is over uke, unless uke is shifting his weight backward (not proper ukemi for ikkyo) you should be able to simply bend your knees and bring him down.

If you are having a problem with this still, because you don't quite have uke when you are at the rest position (standing with uke controlled in ikkyo in front of you) then you can step at an angle to uke's body; through the armpit of the arm you are applying ikkyo to. This will bring most down, if they are taking the proper ukemi for ikkyo.

The problem I have with bending at the knees (and this is true with other aikido movements as well) as that I can't move forward very well when my knees are bent. I do like the idea of giving Uke a bump at an angle to help get the Uke down.

Shadowfax
12-13-2009, 12:40 PM
I had and still have that issue too. Trust me you can move forward with your knees bent. You just have to teach your body to do it. It will come all in good time. Be patient and just try not to get in your own way mentally.

Bending my knees and lowering my center is a major issue for me. But one day it occurred to me that I was making excuses and telling myself I can't do it and getting in my own way. I still do it sometimes but less often now. I will make the excuse to sensei that I just can't do what he is showing me. He is so patient. Just smiles and says you need to lower your center and he shows me again...

When I stop saying I cant and start saying I'll try... I tend to discover I can do a lot of things that I really believed were not possible.

Kevin Leavitt
12-13-2009, 12:50 PM
I am 6 2 as well. I can't tell you how to do this correctly on aikiweb. Yea you have to bend your knees, but there is a little more to it than this as well.

Grabbling the arm. Probably a big clue as to part of the problem. Grabbing the arm means most likely that you are engaging the arm upon contract before you have established connection and kuzushi.

Grabbing the arm can trigger a proprioceptive response from uke, so if you extend, grab the arm, then bend your knees...well uke will feel the grab, then begin to disengage, bend his knees in order to get lower than you. So most likely he will always be slightly ahead of whatever knee bending you are going to do...thus you will never beat uke to get underneath his center.

Play around with ikkyo some with different things happening at different times.

I personally don't like to grab the arm at all, but to recieve, enter first....uke should not get feedback from the contact and thus he should not have a reason proprioceptively to consolidate and pullback, and bend his knees. Then you can try to "get under" his center, kuzushi established, and uke then needs to find a response to get center back...but it is too late and he is "behind" your action with his...and now you are ahead of his action loop.

Again, I can't coach over aikiweb...but maybe this mental picture might help?

This was a big part of my problem being a big guy and stopping the early grabbing was a huge help for me.

Michael Hackett
12-13-2009, 02:35 PM
My biggest failure and challenge with ikkyo omote is to keep the extension of my arms. Like many, I have tended to push down on the upper arm while pulling up on the lower arm. If I simply extend both of my arms fully and move forward from my center, Uke remains unbalanced and goes right down.

I have friends from another school who routinely perform the "bump" into the armpit and slide back out. That works pretty well until Uke decides to use that movement to reverse Nage and "sweep" the legs into a takedown.

Maarten De Queecker
12-13-2009, 02:49 PM
Ikkyo is by far the most difficult technique to do correctly, and by far the easiest to escape out of.

mickeygelum
12-13-2009, 05:38 PM
Ikkyo is by far the most difficult technique to do correctly, and by far the easiest to escape out of.

Mr Queecker,

Would you please elaborate on your statement?

Mickey

eyrie
12-13-2009, 05:53 PM
I have a problem when I apply Ikkyo. I am 6'2 so, for instance once I have grabbed my opponent's arm and turned my hips into the motion, my opponent is bent pretty far down, and I am still in a standing position and unable to exert any real force on their arm, I found that I have to lean over to get closer to the arm. So usually this results in a clumsy motion with Uke having to pretend and assist me. Anybody ahve any tips for this problem? I am a beginner by the way... I think this largely depends on how tall your partner is in relation to your 6'2". It would be difficult to diagnose what problems you may be experiencing without seeing how you do this, or to be able to offer any real advice without hands on interaction. Ordinarily, the usual problem is applying ikkyo to a taller person, not the obverse.

BTW, you don't necessarily have to bend your knees to drop your weight or apply force.... but it's hard to explain without doing so in person.

raul rodrigo
12-13-2009, 06:15 PM
I have friends from another school who routinely perform the "bump" into the armpit and slide back out. That works pretty well until Uke decides to use that movement to reverse Nage and "sweep" the legs into a takedown.

Yes, the bump into the armpit also doesn't work too well in my dojo, where many yudansha have judo training, so stepping in that close before you have control of uke creates an opening for a throw. Tani otoshi or sukui nage are the most common responses we get.

Shadowfax
12-13-2009, 10:00 PM
After tonight's class Kevin's post makes a ton of sense. We worked on Ikkyo all night. Got lucky and wound up with a semi private class so we really got to explore it.

I tried not grabbing. In fact not raising my arms at all for the Shomenuchi and Yokomenuch attacks until Uke had fully extend himself in his attack. Ikkyo worked much much better than it ever has for me. Also really concentrate on finding that spiral through Ukes body rather then concentrating on the linear direction you eventually want him to go in....

Lots of food for thought and this thread was on my mind as we trained.

ChrisHein
12-13-2009, 11:39 PM
Yes, the bump into the armpit also doesn't work too well in my dojo, where many yudansha have judo training, so stepping in that close before you have control of uke creates an opening for a throw. Tani otoshi or sukui nage are the most common responses we get.

If you push down as you "bump", their attempt to throw ends with them face planting themselves into the mat.

However if you don't first have uke's balance before doing this it won't work. Keeping your inside leg back, and stepping forward until uke loses his balance is key. If you have pushed uke forward until he can't keep his legs under him he will go down easily. Any attempts to throw from this position on the part of uke will end badly for him.

raul rodrigo
12-14-2009, 12:11 AM
Yes, Chris, that's why I had the caveat "before you have control of uke."

raul rodrigo
12-14-2009, 01:18 AM
An example of ikkyo without the bump or tori trying to put his weight over uke in any obvious way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkA8uA_kwyA&feature=channel

Down power is being transmitted through the arms, but it's a subtle thing.

Maarten De Queecker
12-14-2009, 05:01 AM
Mr Queecker,

Would you please elaborate on your statement?

Mickey

Please, call me by my first name, I start feeling old when people call me sir or mister :D

Anyway, in my experience, it is not really that difficult for an (strong) uke to resist an ikkyo by sheer force ("I'm not going to bend my elbow or go down"), or just roll out of it the moment it is applied, so when you apply it, it has to be near perfect. Now, achieving this near perfection is easy on a flexible uke who attacks relaxedly (is this a word?) with e.g. shomenuchi, but when you have an uke who comes at you full strenght and speed, you must be really good and fast if you want to a) take uke's centre and not get pushed into the mat and b) keep control of uke. In kaeshi-waza, ikkyo is the easiest to take over.

Most instructors/yudansha I speak with agree that ikkyo is one of the hardest techniques to do if you have an uke who is hellbent on getting out of it.

Abasan
12-14-2009, 06:40 AM
An example of ikkyo without the bump or tori trying to put his weight over uke in any obvious way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkA8uA_kwyA&feature=channel

Down power is being transmitted through the arms, but it's a subtle thing.

Right.... he's a beginner and you want him to emulate Endo.

Stick to kihon. Hold a bokken and see how ikkyo is done slowly, blade always cutting uke. You'll learn to move softly with the blade just as you should do it empty handed. But if you start to push and pull, where is your blade?

Carsten Möllering
12-14-2009, 08:09 AM
Stick to kihon.

Well it is. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKmzBh3NZVY)

Greetings,
Carsten

raul rodrigo
12-14-2009, 08:15 AM
Carsten beat me to linking to the Kihon no Kata video clip. I had the same idea. And I mention Endo not to answer the OP directly, but to address the idea of the bump cited a few posts earlier.

Kevin Leavitt
12-14-2009, 09:05 AM
ar resistive ikkyo is a gift from heaven. that gift is called a hip throw, which is far more exciting than the ikkyo.

dps
12-14-2009, 11:33 AM
For a beginner I would recommend that in Shomenuchi Ikkyo, as uke raises his arm upward to strike, raise your arms upward at the same time. You use uke's upward momentum to help unbalance him.

If his striking arm is coming down, do Iriminage.

David

ninjaqutie
12-14-2009, 11:44 AM
You should not bend over. My sensei always reminds us that we should be like puppets and have our heads suspended from a string from the ceiling. If anything, bending your knees or sinking into your hips should be enough to keep him down.

As far as what David said above me, I agree. My sensei always tells us to imagine both our fingers are linked via a string. When he lifts his arm up to attack, my arm should go up too to catch under the elbow. The reason he tells us to imagine the string is tied at the fingers is to remind us to lead with our fingers. :)

Janet Rosen
12-14-2009, 11:55 AM
ar resistive ikkyo is a gift from heaven. that gift is called a hip throw, which is far more exciting than the ikkyo.
:)

dps
12-14-2009, 01:20 PM
As far as what David said above me, I agree. My sensei always tells us to imagine both our fingers are linked via a string. When he lifts his arm up to attack, my arm should go up too to catch under the elbow.

That is the Harmony (Ai) in Aikido.

David

Flintstone
12-14-2009, 03:54 PM
ar resistive ikkyo is a gift from heaven. that gift is called a hip throw, which is far more exciting than the ikkyo.
Or waki gatame / hiji kudaki. A favourite of mine.

Kevin Leavitt
12-14-2009, 04:42 PM
yup! lots of cool stuff to do which is why it behoves uke to attack and respond properly!

seank
12-14-2009, 07:26 PM
Kevin has some really good points about proprioception. I often relate that just as uke grabbing your wrist lets you know where they are, you grabbing your ukes arm lets them know where you are!

As far as a fully resisting uke is concerned (ie "I'm not going to bend my elbow") I would suggest you ask said uke to try a little experiment. As your uke to stand on the spot and tense all of their muscles - arms, legs, the lot. Then ask them to try and jump up and down. If they tense everything they won't be able to move.

Striking (punching, kicking, shuto, etc.) when you have a stiff arm is akin to trying to drive without bending your arms. You simply can't drive without bending/relaxing your arm. The uke that "straight arms" an attack is simply inviting a broken arm or a damaged elbow or again as Kevin mentioned a nice hip throw.

No one throws a punch and leaves the arm hanging out there trying to muscle their way out of something...

Back to your original question - I'm not 6' 2" so I can't comment on the height aspect, but having ducks disease at 5' 7" I often have people taller than me where I find myself in a similar situation. It often helps to remember that your ukes strike must come to you, not the other way around. When you can effectively meet, blend and control (not grab) the attack, you should be able to lower your centre over your ukes and draw them to the ground. This assumes that you keep unbendable arm not draw your uke into your own centre.

Its a challenging but fun technique to play with and you invariably get a different result every time you change uke (unless you're practiced enough to replicate the effect every time (one year I'll get this!)).

Hope the practice goes well :)

Abasan
12-14-2009, 08:47 PM
Well it is. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKmzBh3NZVY)

Greetings,
Carsten

This 2nd video is probably more useful for a beginner who already understands chushin and atari. But imagine for a moment he isn't Endo's student. He will assume that he can stay rooted in the spot to take the shomen. And then he will assume he can just bring down uke's arm with his arms. This video shows very good ikkyo, but without an explanation on the internal mechanics. Maybe starting with structural kuzushi, maai and tai sabaki would be better. IMO at least.

Raul, no offence on your posting. I just saw that the 1st video is more ki no nagare and the emphasis was more for intermediate students. But you're right, its ikkyo without a bump to the ribs that you wanted to highlight. You don't need to bump the body when you can bridge it through uke's hands and Endo's video is perfect as an example.

raul rodrigo
12-14-2009, 09:09 PM
Yes, Ahmad, your point is well taken. I suppose in my posts in this thread, I just want to address the concept that tori needs to get closer to uke to get ikkyo to work. The OP talked about wanting to bend over to "get closer to the arm" to affect uke. Others spoke of using the knee to get an effect. But tori already has an atari, a point of engagement with uke, and that's all he needs. Endo talks about this (and demonstrates this beautifully) in his dvds.

Andrew Macdonald
12-15-2009, 07:00 PM
hi there

i am only 6 foot 1 but i train in China, so usually i am practicing with people a lot smaller than me

Ikkyo, in the OP it sounds from your wordig that youmight be doing th ikkyo incorrectly, i am refer in to the use of the word 'force' and the fact that the arm is too far away for you to grab,

certainly dropping my center helps, but as i said, something doesn't fit in your writing of the tech, (maybe i am readin it wrong)

i have never had big problems doing ikkyo to people smaller than me, shihonage however................

Rob Watson
12-15-2009, 08:35 PM
... a proprioceptive response from uke...

Do you mean "I'm losing my balance" (uke says) in the kinesthetic sense or something along the lines of a refex of simply a response to being grabbed? "Proprioceptive response" seems a bit of a non-sequitur/oxymoron ... when I feel hot (as in burning) I pull back as a response but my sense of heat is not changed. Proprioception being ones awareness of ones body parts and their positions being distinct from the kinesthetic sense of balance and awareness of a state of motion. I'm confused on how you are using the term.

As for my take on ikkyo (I vote as not the most diffculy technique-in case anyone is counting):
Ukes response to sensing their balance being taken is to attempt to regain balance (or escape) which leaves an even bigger opening or simply further unbalacing. If one attempts to apply ikkyo but basically stops with their arms extended in front of them (at waist level with ukes arm captured) then that is not really ikkyo. Once ukes arm is captured and their balance taken (or given as is proper for senior to allow beginners a chance to learn) the motion continues until the arm is pinned onto the mat!

I see this problem all the time with omote and ura - there is a hitch in the technique where tori just stops (after the turn in ura or with ukes arm held at the waist omote- without much of tori arm extension to boot). Keep the technique moving until stopped by the mat!

Kihon with a really skilled uke might require the 'bump' but try to find an Endo clip in ki no nagare with a 'bump' ... besides the one from the mat.

My 2 cents. Maybe you are right, Kevin, the medium is not quite up to the task.

Abasan
12-15-2009, 08:55 PM
Robert, I believe Kevin is relating to the fact that if you force something to move it will undoubtedly meet with resistance, in this case Uke's reflex to counter. As opposed to moving uke along the lines of least resistance, or better yet where uke would naturally move.

As far as getting ikkyo or rating it, I think I'll still be 'getting' the aha moment until the day I die.

Kevin Leavitt
12-16-2009, 12:03 AM
Proprioception as in like the hot stove syndrome. If I touch a hot stove, it will generate a response. Maybe I am not technically using the word correctly, but the grab will/should in most people generate a natural response to do something, usually uke will stop moving forward, attempt to center his/her body, and pull away.

If you grab my wrist, for example, there is typically a proprioception that is communicated to me. If you pull, I will typically pull back and break contact with you. It does not make sense to me to continue to allow you to hold me. However, if you are "good" it is possible for you to make contact, not generate any "communication" at all, and leave me disoriented as to what to do and hence, it does not generate a response to pull back.

I talk to folks I am working with about giving me a reason to hold on. There are two reasons for me to hold on. First, you relay no message to me at all through your connection as to where your center might be. Two, you may communicate your center, but I realize that by letting go, there is worse things that might happen to me.

In Ikkyo though, for most beginners, grabbing is not the thing to do. They have not developed the skills necessary to avoid an incorrect response, and I submit that they will never learn it by reinforcing the bad things that go with the grab.

Therefore, I find it better to not grab at all, which eliminates this, and then requires them to learn how to control uke through their structure. The interesting thing I think is that by simply not grabbing, Uke immediately loses this proprioceptive reference point, which should by Nage more time, and causes Uke to continue through with his attack, therefore, committing his center "more".

It can be a scary thing to "let go" (no pun intended) as our fear is that by not grabbing we are gving up control. AND by not grabbing earlier, we are allowing uke more time to attack us which in our logical minds is a bad thing as conventional wisdom would say to us that grabbing often and early is much better than not grabbing and doing it later!

In reality, we find in our practice that sometimes not grabbing and allowing uke to continue through, gives us Time, causes uke to commit fully, and screws up his Decision/Act loop sense the feedback he needed to continue on to the next step was never there!

Kevin Leavitt
12-16-2009, 12:10 AM
Robert Watson wrote:

As for my take on ikkyo (I vote as not the most diffculy technique-in case anyone is counting):

I agree, it is difficult. Maybe the most difficult as you state.

Why?

Well I think a number of factors.

1. Both Uke and Nage know the attack/response
2. It is simple...both the attack and the response.
3. It is narrow...there are only so many parameters that can get injected into the situation and Uke knows this.
4. It is a simple, balanced attack from the front with both uke and nage in a balance kamae.
5. Even as a committed attack, Uke can retain his balance if Nage does not figure out how to disrupt it.
6. Uke primarily controls the timing and distance of the situation, therefore, initially controls the OODA loop...Nage is playing "behind" the loop from the start of the technique and most figure out how to disrupt it and get ahead.

Well, these are the thoughts that come to mind...which actually make Ikkyo a very good tool for training. A simple, basic, yet very challenging puzzle to master.

roadtoad
06-20-2012, 08:00 PM
osensei was fond of saying, 'even I don't know if I'm doing ikkyo correctly, or not'.
My idea is, thar almost no one does, The original idea was to stretch uke's loins, not just wrestle him downm then push him to the side, The original idea was to 'uplift' uke, in order to enter his attack.
Only Senudd, in sweden, seems to attempt to do it this way. Of everyone I've seen lately.
Of course, everyone still uses swordstrike for shomenuchi, which automatically negates any possibility of using ikkyo against a boxer, for example.

Anthony Loeppert
08-18-2012, 10:37 PM
osensei was fond of saying, 'even I don't know if I'm doing ikkyo correctly, or not'.
My idea is, thar almost no one does...

Assuming this saying is true, would it not more likely mean something along the lines of "I've forgotten what ikkyo is" (because he'd mastered the principles the techniques are designed to teach) rather than "this darn ikkyo, will I ever get it right?"

Dalaran1991
11-05-2012, 11:49 PM
I'm only a noob 4th kyu, but aren't you supposed to do sankyo when you fail at ikkyo at exactly the point where the OP has trouble with (having the arm but not the control)? At my level sensei said that sankyo is a fail safe for ikkyo if you miss it. Of course this is not relevant if you just want to get ikkyo well, but I think part of Aikido is knowing what to do when you mess up.

Cliff Judge
11-06-2012, 08:21 AM
The problem I have with bending at the knees (and this is true with other aikido movements as well) as that I can't move forward very well when my knees are bent. I do like the idea of giving Uke a bump at an angle to help get the Uke down.

Do you do any yoga? Know what warrior 1 is?